Photographers need to check references too! With Jessa Ray Muse

Welcome to Sunrise Life, the podcast where we have deep conversations with fellow freelance models. In today's episode, we dive into the crucial topic of reference checking for both models and photographers. Joined by Jessa Ray Muse, we discuss why it's essential for photographers to do their research and for models to ensure their safety through thorough reference checks. We cover personal anecdotes, the significance of community support, and offer practical advice for navigating the complexities of the industry. This episode is a must-listen for anyone involved in the modeling world, aiming to foster safer and more professional interactions.

Don't miss out on insights that can help you avoid negative experiences and enhance your professional journey in the modeling industry. Tune in to learn more about the importance of doing your homework, maintaining clear communication, and building a supportive community around you.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Music.

(00:05):
Welcome to Sunrise Life, the podcast where we have deep conversations with fellow freelance models.
And today I'm talking with Jessa Rae Mews and we are going to go down the rabbit
hole on reference checking for models and for photographers because yes, photographers,

(00:25):
you should be doing your research too because it's very important and we're
going to talk about it. So say hello, Jessa.
Hey, I'm so glad that you brought this topic up to me.
I didn't have a podcast scheduled for this coming week. So I'm glad that you
texted me with this idea.
Right on. Yeah, I'm a big fan of your podcast.

(00:45):
I listen every week. I refer people to it all the time. I think it's really
important resource in the community for everyone to listen to.
Just, you know, there's a lot of photographers who have mentioned that they
learn a lot from it, you know, and they're really nice guys.
To then say, you know, that, oh, I learned this or that, and I don't want to be one of those.
And I really appreciate that they're actually taking the time to learn and grow.

(01:09):
Yeah, I think so too. I think that the willingness to learn new things is the spice of life.
If you think you know everything, then you're just going to be a stick in the mud, right?
Yeah, for real. I mean, it's stagnance, you know, life is about growth.
Actually, really quick side note, I homeschooled myself for high school.
And one of the things that was my main goal was that, you know,

(01:32):
you got to learn something new every day. And we never stop learning.
It's not just about school, you know, it's about, you know, if you're doing
something where you learn something
new every day, like you're really in a good flow of life, I guess.
And, you know, you don't want to ever get into a point where you think you know
everything and you're in stagnance.
You know, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

(01:52):
Yes, I agree with that fully.
And then some photographers out there might not know that they should be doing
their research in advance on the models that they work with.
And I think that this is definitely something that can be very helpful to help
people avoid having negative experiences.
But before we start talking about that, let's talk about references in general.

(02:15):
And I haven't yet had a specific episode about model safety and model checking references,
even though that topic has been brought up probably in almost every single interview
that I've done with models on this show. But let's let's do a little recap.
What are references and why should we do them? Yeah, sure.

(02:38):
So, you know, one main thing that I look at and references is like, you know, obviously,
I look at their portfolio right off the bat, because depending on where they're
messaging me, they usually have a portfolio attached.
So that's a good precursor. And you can really tell a lot just from a portfolio

(02:59):
without asking anybody, actually, you know, what are the models?
Do they look like happy and willing to be doing what they're doing?
Do they or do they look like scared or like deer in the headlights?
You can see a lot from body language. Right. Another thing is like post frequency.
You know, I'm an art model. I don't really I don't do any open leg.
I do up to art nude. And so for me, if I see a lot of poses in someone's portfolio

(03:21):
where they're, you know, wanting
open like eye contact or it's a lot of bent over or certain things,
even with lingerie on, if it's not of a certain high quality of like really
sexy glamour, I'm I'm good.
I'll pass. I don't need any more information. Yeah, yeah.
Totally. So know what you're getting into, basically, just by looking at the

(03:42):
person who is contacting you to shoot and seeing what they're posting already.
Yeah, exactly. And also, you know, not only style, right?
Because it's like if I see a bunch of models that look like plastic,
maybe, or I don't know, a little more Barbie, for lack of a better term.
They're blonde or platinum, very glam, a lot of makeup or potentially even over edited.

(04:06):
I'm like or big breasted I'm I'm
not any of those things that's another thing you know so you
kind of try not to like force yourself into someone's
portfolio that they it's just not a right fit
don't put yourself in that position it's kind of yeah you know I've learned
however perhaps that photographer might be attempting to expand their horizons

(04:26):
so that might be worth a conversation sure and there are times where I have
done that it's very case-by-case basis yeah yeah Yeah, totally.
But having that communication with that person that is contacting you to shoot,
it can be very eye-opening because they might say something that's very off-putting
or they might be very understanding and willing to adapt to your comfort zone or your style as well.

(04:54):
Yeah, I've definitely had people comment. And I think I've heard you even say
this before, where it's like, if they say, oh, well, I don't really see that in your portfolio.
And it's like well which portfolio are you looking at for one like if you're
just looking at instagram that's not going to cut it you really need to go to
my website and that's where i have the best photos and the most frequently updated

(05:16):
and of course model mayhem and model society but
you know on my website where i show my full diversity i do fetish i do costuming
you know i do figure modeling where i hold poses you know all these things right
i have my whole range there And so oftentimes,
I think people, if you're not frequently posting what they think,
or they haven't seen it, they think you can't do it.

(05:37):
And it's once again, on their side, right to have the conversation,
because they don't know if you're willing to do it unless they ask, right?
Especially important with social media, because if you are me,
for example, I cannot post any implied or censored nudes.
I have to be wearing something in every photo on my social media,

(06:00):
which means that some photographers might think that I don't pose nude anymore
because Instagram is very strict with me where they're not so strict with other users.
So I always include my portfolio link because it's a better way to understand
like the range of what I do.
Absolutely. Yeah. And that's then that brings up the next point.

(06:22):
You know, it's like if you say you're talking on Instagram, then I always ask
if they don't have the link attached.
Do you have any other sites? Can I can I look at your portfolio elsewhere?
And I ask this to everybody because I think it's important to treat everyone
equally and also do the same work.
No matter how quality their work is no matter how many recognizable models
they are to make sure and double check everywhere else

(06:44):
do they have model mayhem have they been kicked off potentially you know
like do they have model society do they have a website they
have a flicker you know all these things right and smug
mug you know whatever so it's like it
and same thing to what you were just saying with booking even
i try to take everything off of instagram the moment
i can send a cold call they say what are your rates you know

(07:05):
i'm interested what are your rates send them my link can say please read through everything
here if that all looks good fill out the form and i
mark it as tentative i tell them until i receive the
form and the deposit and that like helps me
so much to just avoid problems and cancellations and it makes me look very professional
and i've had a lot of photographers say thank you wow you're really professional

(07:26):
you know and they're like i wish more models did this so so pointers to the
to the crew and everybody like you know have Everything outlined and clear.
And if you can put a form, a booking form on your website, so they can just
fill out everything they want to do in that shoot.
And it will help you a lot. Streamlight
your bookings into your email because it will go to your email.
That's great. Yeah. And then in addition to seeking out references by looking

(07:52):
at that photographer's work and contacting models that they've worked with in the past,
another huge beneficial tool is being in these private group chats where models
help each other out, like Facebook groups, Instagram chats.
We have pooled together and we are a community now.

(08:13):
And if we are having communication with a photographer that might be pulling
some red flags in your chat, you can ask your peers in this group conversation,
hey, has anybody worked with so-and-so?
And if anybody in that group of people you're talking to has worked with them,

(08:33):
they can let you know what their experience is like.
Because there are some red flags that are just miscommunications,
but there's some that are serious and you really want to avoid working with certain people.
And without having a community of people that can help steer you away from bad
photographers, then, you know, you avoid a lot of heartache. Yeah, exactly.

(08:56):
It's really, you know, near and dear to my heart to be able to feel like I can
be a part of some certain,
you know, communities and groups behind the scenes to be able to chat with the
women in the community and ask around because, you know, as much as you think
you're good at referencing after you get to a point with modeling,
it's there's still things you can miss, people can slip under the wire,
you know, and and it's like.

(09:18):
You need to say you know i
work a lot in the west but if i'm coming to like ohio or
missouri or whatever it's like and there's this
random person and i just don't know enough just yes and say hey you know who
knows something about this person and there's always someone who does and if
they don't maybe that's also like a hmm you know this is where you decide do

(09:39):
you meet in a public like especially what if you're their first model okay let's
talk on that for a minute right i've been
people's first model several times and you
know but i want them to at least have some kind of photography experience
i don't want them to have just picked up a camera right they've been shooting
nature for four years or they they you
know they shoot portraits and weddings or you know like whatever but it's their

(10:03):
first you know model shoot where they paid you and or nude shoot especially
and so there's things that you can do to prepare yourself and them like for
one meet in a public studio,
I often think is good, especially if that place seems like it has video surveillance at the entrance.
That's a good backup, or the studio runner is on site, you know,

(10:25):
because I almost never bring a chaperone.
Yeah, if you're someone who travels with someone, bring someone,
you know, like, just prepare them, though, you know, let them know this is what
it's like to work with a model. So those are also good things.
Because it's like everyone starts somewhere. So it's, you know,
if they're nice in communication, there's like worth giving a try.
But some people are unwilling to give someone a try the first time.

(10:47):
And I totally understand.
It's a risk. It is a risk. And you brought up the bringing an escort or a chaperone
with you as a safety measure to shoots.
I do see that topic being brought up all the time in like Facebook groups or
in comments on posts when a model says that they had a negative experience.
So many commenters say, oh, you should always have somebody with you.

(11:12):
But if you're a full-time traveling model, it does not logistically make sense
to have a bodyguard with you all the time.
We're not making enough money to support another person's full-time income to
be on the road with us just to stand there and make sure that you're going to be safe,
which is why we reference check so intensely because we're doing our research

(11:36):
in advance just so that we don't have to have somebody stand there and protect us.
Yeah, honestly, if I feel like I need to bring somebody, I might as well not
do the shoot whilst the time is how I feel.
Yeah, totally. So where it is helpful if you are new to modeling and maybe you're
working with people that like you're not connected to the community yet,

(11:58):
you don't have those safety groups that you can get like lots of information from fellow models and,
you know, you're only doing a shoot here or there like once or twice a month,
it might make sense to bring a friend with you.
But once you start doing this full time and you
have 30 shoots a month it really is
not logistically feasible to bring an escort

(12:20):
with you yeah i mean my husband gets bored
it's like if he comes trip because he knows i've done my due diligence so he's
not like they're usually trying to be vigilant on that he's just like he came
along on the trip you know and so i'm doing a few shoots and then we're doing
other things it's often the only time when he will come along I mean,

(12:40):
I did go to New York City last year with him and we did four duos and then I
did some other shoots along there and then he flew home before I did.
So, you know, he came along on a few shoots.
There was one. This is a funny story. So I was at the Sandy Hook Nude Beach in New Jersey. Oh, boy.
Doing a shoot. And actually, I don't have as many like weird nude beach stories

(13:02):
as I've heard on this podcast.
But like, you know, I'm shooting with this guy.
It's fine. and he's just kind of he's
a really nice gwc but anyways my
husband's just you know doing his own thing he's collecting you know glass on
the beach trash shells whatever he's a good he's a good guy but this random

(13:25):
guy that this group is hanging out nude right they're doing some shibari you
can tell over on their their blankets and friends and then he ends up talking
to my husband at one point and,
Which is kind of cool. Instead of coming up and interrupting our shoot,
he came up and asked, well, do I do OnlyFans? And would I want to do a collab?
And he asked to explain to him, no, she's an art model.

(13:46):
She doesn't even have OnlyFans. And she's definitely not doing a collab in the
way that he wanted to collab with me.
So that was interesting. But anyway, so chaperones can, I guess,
be helpful in that regard.
The final little quick note on this side note about
this shoot is that the photographer asked me
if he could the very end of the shoot okay

(14:09):
he asked me if he could just like expose himself
to the nature real quick and be nude because he
you know he doesn't get to be free like that often and so i i said sure that's
fine i'm gonna turn my back and go over here and get dressed and i didn't even
you know witness it he like pulled his pants down he didn't even get all the
way nude and like faced the sea and almost did like a titanic moment where he

(14:31):
spread his arms was all I could really tell.
And then that was like a few minutes. And then he pulled those pants back up
and we were done. But, you know, that was interesting. That was interesting.
So anyways, chaperones, Dr. Chaperones.
So I, in the very beginning of modeling, I did take chaperones.
Like you said, it's more useful, I think, when you're first starting out.

(14:52):
You know, I took my cousin and my sister and both of them ended up modeling alongside me as well.
But we had the buddy system, right? Buddy system is good.
And photographers are often more likely to say yes to these situations where
it's a girlfriend or like sister or girlfriend instead of like.

(15:13):
You know, a boyfriend. And I have actually had one photographer who I quite
like say, yeah, he's had more problems with boyfriends than husbands.
He said, husbands are secure.
They know they've got to, but boyfriends, maybe not so much.
I thought that was kind of funny.
And that's probably true, actually, because I have heard stories where the boyfriend
is sitting across the room, or they're on the sideline, especially,

(15:37):
and they're seeing the pose, is maybe very crotchy, but that's not how it's being photographed.
And they jump to conclusions and make assumptions and then they freak out and cause a problem.
And I have heard that a couple times, but it's not that frequent.
You shouldn't assume that the chaperone is going to do that. Yeah.
But I'm sure that one negative experience for a photographer makes them want

(15:58):
to set expectations that that's never going to happen to them again.
Oh, yeah. And I understand.
Honestly, I understand both sides where people want to insist on always bring in a chaperone.
And I understand where there's hesitancy on photographer sides,
because, you know, once again, they have a risk and vulnerability to this situation.

(16:19):
And, you know, chaperones can be, you know, they can come and maybe deal stuff.
You know, I've heard of this happening where it's like, they end up,
you know, wanting, they'll say they want the chaperone to be out in the waiting
room in the studio or something, maybe just so they They don't interfere with
the shoot, but within yelling distance in case the model needs help. Right.

(16:39):
You know, they don't want you around like with their back turned to you or something.
Yeah, that actually reminds me of a story. There's a photographer that I've
worked with a bunch in Washington state who has a huge wardrobe with lots of
costumes and jewelry and shoes
that they actually belong to his wife because she's also very petite.

(17:02):
And a lot of models have the same clothing size as her.
And they're so generous as to, you know, allow models to use their wardrobe collection.
And one day he had two models come in. It was a model and then her friend.
And her friend brought like, you know, a big bag, like a large duffel bag, handbag thing with her.

(17:24):
And it was like pretty empty when she arrived.
And when she left, it was like really full of stuff.
And the photographer saw that she had left the dressing room and walked out
to her car with her bag now full and super heavy.
And he knew that she had totally ransacked his closet of jewelry,

(17:48):
shoes, costumes, but he didn't have the heart to confront her about it.
So he decided after that, no chaperones, and he's only going to work with experienced vetted models.
But this is, you know, kind of segue into why it's also important for photographers
to do their research in advance of who they're working with.

(18:10):
Yeah, it's obvious that models, especially full time traveling nude models,
should be doing their research in advance to make sure that we are safe because
it is appearing to be more vulnerable.
We are usually the smaller human in the pair between the photographer and the
model. So we're usually seemingly like needing more protection and needing more

(18:33):
awareness of our surroundings.
However, the photographer also, too, can be vulnerable.
They have expensive equipment. In that case, lots of expensive jewelry and costumes.
So there are times where it could be really harmful for the photographer if
they are just booking with anybody without...

(18:55):
Knowing who's coming to their house and what might happen
yeah absolutely yeah I mean I've
heard enough stories now that I feel like I
have no problem I mean unless someone outright says no chaperones you know and
it just makes it and then there's other things that like red flag me along the
way I often don't get red flagged by that anymore but that's me you know I understand

(19:20):
everyone is their own situation.
So, but I will ask for elaboration on it sometimes if I'm really trying to dig
into whether or not to work with that person's. Yeah. Yeah.
Let's see. Another thing that's really important is, but it's depending on the
person is model mayhem credits, right?
So if for those, you know, who don't know what model mayhem is, right.
It's a website where, you know, you can have a portfolio and they,

(19:44):
and you can post travel notices and even casting
called if you're looking for a model you can find traveling models coming
through your area so it does have benefits and also it is
a credit system which is a referencing system so and that's the
main reason i use it i think it's still and also i think it just makes you look
good like in the community how long have you been on there do you maintain vip

(20:05):
status which a lot of people do because it makes you look professional you can
send as many you know messages anyway all this stuff right so the credit system
though if i'm like going through friend requests i won't just mass accept friend requests.
And I understand a lot of people will because some people can't even message
you until you've accepted their friend request.

(20:25):
But maybe I don't want them to either. So it's like, you know,
I'll go through and I will actually click on each person and check them.
Do you know what is their bio say?
What do, how many credits do they have? And that's usually the first thing I look at.
And then it's like, okay, they have say two credits, and but they've only been
on since 2022 all right sure that's fine i can deal with that but say they have

(20:50):
like zero credits and they've been on there since 2008 and you know they have a.
Whatever else going on i'm like this
is kind of read by you to me and i'll check do they have an instagram
linked or you know and then even
from there does their style kind of match what i'm going for you
know and then and then decide from there whether to accept the friend request and

(21:11):
send a message you know yeah the verified credit
system is definitely model mayhem's best feature and
i do agree with you like even though the website is
not as popular as it used to be there's no
other there's no yelp for models and
photographers and this is really the only good way
that a lot of people have already been using it in the past where you can see

(21:34):
who people have worked with and what that person has said about them however
there are some photographers that will coerce models into leaving a positive
verified credit and i i do get a lot of people after a shoot,
they'll say, hey, could you leave a verified credit for me?
And if it was a positive experience, yeah, I'll definitely do it.

(21:56):
But there's some that are totally weird that are trying to farm positive references
from models using the Model Mayhem verified credit system,
or even handwriting something or typing it out so that they can put it on their Facebook page.
And I would say that if you see a photographer who has like really kind of shady

(22:17):
vibes in their work, but lots of model positive notes.
Still definitely message those
models individually and ask them what their experience was really like.
Because some of those references that are written online are coerced.
Yep, absolutely. Absolutely.

(22:38):
Yeah. And you got to take each one with a grain of salt because for one,
you know, say they left me a credit and I'm on a busy tour and,
you know, I go home and I just unplug for a minute and I don't take the time
to reply back to the credit.
But maybe I log in and I disapprove it. So now it's blank on their page.
Right. So I've approved their credits online, but it's blank on their page.

(23:01):
And say someone you know looks at
their profile and also sees okay it's blank like
you know they have a bunch of credits but there's multiple blank credits well
blank credits are tricky because on one hand it could simply be that you know
i was tired or well maybe it's just you know a little bit lazy and not reciprocating
people's reviews and so you know it's just blank for that reason now it could

(23:24):
be blank for a different reason maybe the model doesn't feel brave enough to
actually reply with how they really feel about the shoot, you know,
so then there's that and that they're leaving it so that at least, you know,
that you worked with, you know, the people who are looking for the credits know
that, yeah, I worked with them or you worked with them, but we didn't have anything to say,

(23:44):
you know, and you know, I think if highly experienced models didn't have anything
to say that was positive, it might, there might be something off or negative even to say.
And so I have heard of other models leaving blank reviews actually as a negative
review because you can't really leave a negative review because people won't
approve it. Yeah, right.

(24:06):
That's very understandable, too. I mean, like if you leave a review and somebody
doesn't approve it, then it's definitely an issue.
You yeah i mean how this brings up a point
of like how do you even leave a negative review at that
point you know because basically what you can do is
you can either be really brave and attempt to leave a negative review or

(24:28):
say you work with them three times and then on the third time they
were really off or they really went off the deep end
and so at least at that point if you've already left one you can revise your
credit so they still you know usually even when you revise you still get that
notification about that it's been revised so you could probably remove it I've

(24:49):
never removed any credits from mine but I bet you could.
And then, of course, your best bet is to report them to Model Mayhem.
One concern I have sometimes about reporting to Model Mayhem,
because I've had this problem where I did report to Model Mayhem about shady people.
And they wanted to, like, gaslight me and actually act like it was me being the problem.

(25:11):
And I was like, excuse me, this person basically has stolen images.
I'm certain at this point. and they are
like insisting i send you know current
pictures and that they you know
all this you know just was all these things then and
that and and so i don't trust always reporting

(25:32):
to model mayhem i think we should i think you know we really should but i guess
i haven't done it in cases where i probably should yeah also i believe that
model mayhem has a policy where
you can't say something negative in a verified credit or in a comment.
The only time that you could vaguely indicate that you had a negative experience

(25:57):
with somebody is in your bio where you've written stuff about yourself.
You could put a list of people that you do not recommend working with,
but you're not allowed to say why.
So people have to kind of jump through hoops to find your page and see if you
referenced who to not work with.

(26:19):
So that does make it hard to see negative reviews, which is another reason why
it's good to be in these group chats or Facebook groups of other models where
we can easily access each other and give each other this information about certain photographers.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and, you know, another thing is what if their account

(26:39):
gets removed but then they make a new one or they make a new one somewhere else.
I guess, you know, we still want their accounts removed because certain people
will still not do their due diligence and end up working with them and having
a bad time. So we want them removed.
It's like almost easier to keep track when people bring it up.
Oh, hey, yeah, don't work with this person.
And certain people still don't know, even if it's like a, you know,

(27:01):
multiple, you know, incidents perpetrator.
And so then we can share their link and go, yeah, this guy, you know.
So in a way, it's good for them to have a profile somewhere so that we can like make connection.
Yeah. When photographers change their name and start a new profile,
it does make it harder to track down who did what.

(27:23):
But oftentimes, they'll still use old photos from their previous portfolio.
Obviously, they're not starting a whole new portfolio every time they make a new alias.
So we can kind of point them out.
Yeah. Yeah. So it's just a little tricky navigating, I would say.
And one point I brought up too is when people will ask for images.

(27:43):
They'll ask for your current look.
And I see a lot of us models that are experienced, And especially you,
you've been dyeing your hair and changing it, you know, the last year or so.
Maybe you'll post current look photos in your highlights on Instagram, you know.
And it is good to do that because, you know, that is one thing I've heard that
models will do that's not okay.

(28:04):
Is that, you know, say they have a model for four years and they gain some weight.
It's perfectly fine, you know, to shoot people of all different bodies.
But what's not okay is to advertise your previous size and use old photos and
falsely advertise And then you arrive with a totally different body type or
your hair is blue or you have a new tattoo Or all these things.

(28:27):
Yeah, totally If a photographer thinks that you have no tattoos because you've
advertised yourself as a tattoo free model And then you show up with tattoos.
You have falsely advertised yourself. I.
I don't know if that counts. I don't know if that counts as catfishing.
Yeah, well, this is definitely segueing more into the part of the episode where

(28:47):
we're going to dive into why it's important for photographers to also check
references and do their research on the models that they're looking at working with,
because we've all seen it.
We've all seen a photographer rant on Facebook about something that happened
that easily could have been avoided if they either worked with a vetted professional

(29:10):
or did some research on the person that they're working with.
And before we get into all of that, I would like to share some of these stories
that people have been posting on the Facebook prompt that I posted just to kind of display like,
you know, what kind of stuff is out there that has happened to other people.

(29:34):
Just so that photographers listening who you
know maybe not maybe something hasn't happened
that's negative with you yet because you're not shooting as
frequently or maybe you know you're not
sure why it's important for you to like do your research in advance but you
know there are a lot of reasons why it's important so how about we'll do this

(29:57):
i'll read a story and you can tell Tell me what went wrong and how it could
have been avoided. How's that sound?
Okay. And some of these are going to be kind of like take it with a grain of
salt because it might be unprofessional, but perhaps it could have happened
with a professional model.
So, okay, here's the first one.

(30:18):
Photographer says he had a model drive up.
To their chute. She parked in front of his house, paused, and then drove off.
Apparently, she had a mini panic attack and had to reschedule,
but it was certainly like a kind of moment.
So it seems like she freaked out possibly with anticipation of the chute.

(30:41):
How would you describe what was going on there? Yeah, that's definitely a tricky one.
Of course, not knowing the person, you know and
what they deal with it could it's
that one that's really hard to know i mean and he could
take that personally and be like oh well because you
didn't feel safe the first time i'm no longer interested but he didn't you know

(31:03):
i read that story and you know i think i've actually heard it from him before
and like you know she came back later and they shot and it seemed fine yeah
so in those instances it's like okay you could be upset that you know the model had a panic attack.
Perhaps she was not an experienced model. That's the only thing that I can think
of is if you're doing this all the time, it is less likely that you're going

(31:27):
to have to cancel last minute due to panic or anxiety.
So it's like one of those when you're working with somebody that's new,
that kind of thing might happen.
However, I will say that there's oftentimes where inexperienced models will
cancel last minute due to anxiety.
But instead of telling the photographer that they're

(31:48):
nervous and they want to cancel because of that they'll come up with
another reason which is often one of
a couple different things like their grandma died or
they popped a tire or they got
called into work or they're sick or food
poisoning suddenly yeah i think in cases
like that that's really like it's not okay to

(32:09):
say someone died that didn't die because like that's
just you're calling upon yourself bad karma like
let's not invoke your grandma dying for real
you know yeah and then if you've told like six people your grandma died and
then your grandma actually dies it's like your boy who cried wolf no one's gonna
believe you or care now and that did happen to me once my grandma died in real

(32:30):
life and I had to cancel a whole tour in real life and I told everybody the truth.
And because of the stigma of the grandma died,
like common excuse, I included an attachment to every email to each photographer
I was canceling with, with an image of my whole family standing around my grandma's

(32:51):
deathbed to prove that I wasn't lying.
And I look back on that and I'm like, oh my God, I feel so embarrassed.
Like, of course these people trust me. Like I have a good reputation for showing
up why would they think that I would cancel a whole tour you know you know and
lie about it so anyway I just kind of wanted to reflect that was kind of funny.

(33:12):
And also along those lines I think as a
model it's really important like if you're going to be 15
minutes late and whatever reason you know
you woke up late or just whatever you're running like just be
honest and tell them what's going on like when you're when
you know you're going to be be late in advance so like an hour before because
maybe the studio can actually be adjusted to just

(33:33):
start the time when you arrive or something but you
know maybe it's not and they're out 15 minutes of your time
and they still had to pay the two hours from the studio yeah
but either way you should be honest honesty is always best true if you are really
anxious and you're worried about doing the shoot because you're anxious just
say that you don't have to say that your tire popped like yeah it sucks either

(33:54):
way like it's gonna suck just as much for the photographer as your tire popped
versus you had a panic attack.
But in the case of the story that I just read, she was honest and she did,
you know, try to show up, couldn't handle the anxiety and had to leave.
So, I mean, that's how it is sometimes.
Okay, I have another short story that I'll read and you can reflect what your opinion is on this.

(34:19):
Okay, this photographer says, one was
when I tried to to set up a rope shoot the quote
manager was actually running her
fetlife profile and wanted me to pay
full rates which I usually do pay
full rates but he would do all of the rigging
by his design and he would also be shooting the model that I was paying at my

(34:43):
location well what do you think about that that's a big nope man yeah I would
just pass if I was the photographer once I I found that out more likely because it sounds like,
The manager is the problem, but the fact that the model still has the manager,
there could be multiple factors going on.
That person can be totally abusing them and they don't know.

(35:07):
They don't realize they shouldn't have a manager. or you
know so you could say something like please let the model know that when she
no longer has a manager i will hire i mean who knows if the manager will say
this right but it's like you know you know yeah that's just yeah i'm gonna go
ahead and just say this i don't know any experienced,

(35:31):
vetted models who have a manager traveling with them that goes to shoots with
them i i don't know So any good models that do that, the only models that I
know that have legit representation.
That manager is not traveling with them and going to the shoots and also shooting
them. That does not make any sense.

(35:52):
Yeah, the shooting them is the worst part, actually, because,
you know, OK, yeah, you want to do your if you're already a rigger and then
you want to tie the model and then you're hiring her and you want to shoot her. It's your design.
You know, it's like Like I've had plenty of photographers that were also the rigor.
And as long as they use, you know, make sure and let me know,
let me know whenever you're uncomfortable, you this and that.

(36:15):
And they're very kind about it. It's like, it's fine.
I can deal with that, you know? And so we do cross the boundary of into them,
you know, don't touch the model thing, but it's a different type of touching
the model when you're just tying somebody.
But anyways, yeah, just the whole thing of then taking over the tie and then
also taking photos, but taking photos is like I said, I think that's the worst
because it's like, not only are they not saying,

(36:38):
oh, well, I'm going to take behind the scenes, you know, well,
for me, behind the scenes.
Is like you're including the photographer potentially like in an action pose
or yeah, it's just a quick video for a reel and that's it, you know,
or you do like a quick time lapse of the whole tie process.
But then it's like from there, you shouldn't be involved anymore.

(37:00):
It should be the hiring photographer shoot. Yeah, totally.
Yeah. So I would say that if you're a photographer, that if a model says they're
going to bring their manager, just don't do the shoot. It's not going to be good. Yeah.
I have an example that was sent to me. I posted this morning and got a little
bit of feedback. So behind the scenes.

(37:22):
So this photographer says, you know, that he's had people who didn't really
respect the time and took and, you know, that they're only hiring for two hours.
Who you can only afford to hire for two hours from my
experience with him and that they would take a lot of behind
the scenes and then spend time posting it
immediately after instead of or i

(37:43):
mean immediately during the shoot instead of waiting till after you
know and then also they would like focus on the phone
looking at the phone instead of paying attention to the camera
you know and that's really something that's
a little bit hard to get a reference on i feel like
because they're a good model overall and have
say a positive credit on model mayhem but this

(38:04):
would be something that's a side note that you would say this is why it's important
still to directly reach out to people even if you left a positive credit because
then they might say oh yeah she's great but she's a little bit like too much
on her phone the whole time so maybe just lay down some rules about you know
please don't do excessive behind the scene and i've actually.
I've had to instigate this rule myself because I run, you know,

(38:27):
the Muses of the West tours.
And with that, we've had a couple instances where models were taking too many behind the scenes.
And it's like either start your video and leave it running for your time slot
with your photographer, which is often like a 20, 25 minute time slot,
or that's going to be a long video.
But, you know, I'll take myself and just cut out the good parts of it and then throw the rest away.

(38:50):
Way but then it's like i'm focusing on him not
on the camera right yeah on the video or you just
say hey can you take a quick little one minute i'm right at
the end of your time slot where there's the buffer between you know but we because
you just can't do that these guys are paying you you know you should be focusing
on the photographer and making that connection of between you and the camera

(39:11):
and not worrying about your phone it is disrespectful to the photographer's
time and And models need to pay attention and be respectful.
Unless the photographer is also wanting to use those reels or BTS footage.
If you're being hired, you're working for them.
You're not creating your own content. You're working for them.
Absolutely. This is not your OnlyFans creation time. Sorry, but you need to do that on your own time.

(39:35):
Yeah. Setting up a BTS with consent, if you're not continually modifying your camera's position,
you know that you know if the photographer's okay
with it like i've done that in the past i used to do
that a long time ago i would bring a camcorder
with me when i traveled to make bts videos
of my tours and of my life but i always

(39:57):
asked photographers in advance if they were comfortable
with it and if they weren't then i wouldn't do it and i
wasn't just like fucking with my camera the whole time i
would set it up and that was it yeah and consent
goes both ways truly and i actually did
one time have somebody get mad at
me for taking a selfie and there was a studio

(40:17):
in their living room where they just set it up in front of their tv the
backdrop and then you know all the other views of the room you know it's their
bookshelf and you know some stuff about you know that would reveal their personal
life if someone knows what their home looks like and he was very private about
that and i didn't realize and he's he's kind of an interesting character already
so So sometimes it wasn't clear,

(40:38):
like certain communication things about what he really meant.
He was a little bit cryptic, but I, he'd walk out of the room.
I took a quick selfie and a little sexy, like turnaround video,
like 30 seconds to send to my husband. I wasn't even going to post it.
And he saw me do that. And he was mad. He was really mad.
And he's like, oh, well you could have asked. And I was like,
oh, I'm sorry. I didn't, you know, I meant to ask. And I, and then I was just like.

(41:03):
Thought I had a quick moment, so I would do it. And he's like,
well, it's too late now, you know, and like, by no means was I excessively taking behind the scenes.
But in, you know, that's why just you should always ask how they feel about it. Yeah, yeah.
And this is something that if photographers were in their own photographer chat
groups or Facebook groups, they could ask, hey, what was it like working with XYZ model?

(41:28):
And they may be an amazing model, but maybe they're They're excessively on their
phone or always taking selfies or making you take videos of them.
And you wouldn't know that just by looking at their portfolio.
Most photographers just look at a portfolio and they're like,
oh, I want to shoot that model.
But they don't know anything about what it's like to shoot with that person
because they aren't really taking the time to ask their fellow photographers

(41:52):
who have worked with that model what it was like.
And if that kind of a thing like selfies and shooting BTS and all of that kind
of a thing rubs in the wrong way, they could avoid that experience or at least
set expectations with that model in advance.
Like for us, you know, we always chat with each other.
If somebody is a time waster, if they're just going to talk your ear off and

(42:15):
then never book you, then we'll just tell each other that so that we don't have
to go through the agony of dealing with that kind of behavior.
But photographers could be and should be asking each other, you know,
what was it like to shoot with XYZ model? Yeah, absolutely.
And there's a lot of times when I've heard them say, yeah, they just don't.

(42:37):
I think most of them really don't. There are some that are connected because
they might go to the same events and they're in a certain circle.
So they'll ask each other.
But there's oftentimes where they don't. But I've also the opposite where I
had a photographer reach out to like six or seven people, you know, on my credits list.

(42:58):
And he said that everybody got back within two days with glowing reviews.
And I think I really appreciate that. But also, you need to realize,
too, that and, you know, disclaimer for everybody.
It's like if someone leaves you a credit, most likely it's because they had
a good shoot. It's more so the people that you don't post photos of,
you know, that took photos of you or that you took photos of that you had a

(43:20):
bad experience or that you didn't leave a credit.
So there's going to be people that are hard to find.
Yeah, exactly. I have another story. This isn't one that somebody posted,
but I think it's a very valid story that, you know, it could open a lot of eyes for photographers,
especially photographers that like to shoot a lot of TFP with local models because

(43:41):
it's fun, it's energetic,
there's no pressure, if nobody's getting paid, right?
So this is a story that happened with one of my friends in real life.
Earlier in my modeling days, I was doing a body paint shoot with a photographer
that body painted that I had worked with a bunch of times.
And two of my friends who would come to my party house a lot wanted to be body painted too.

(44:03):
So we agreed to do a shoot together, the three of us, where we would all three
get body painted and pose together.
We were painted like cyborg robots and
the photographer was gonna edit the
images like really cgi backgrounds so
that it looked like we were like on another planet and stuff
like that it was totally fun sci-fi but one

(44:25):
of my friends who showed up she said
that her boyfriend would only let her do it if she didn't take her underwear
off and the photographer who was doing the body paint was like well the paint
is going to be it's not going to show up right it's going to be really hard
to edit around that if there's the panty line because the paint absorbs into

(44:45):
the panties and it doesn't look right.
It's not going to be the quality that I'm hoping for with these photos,
which is something that I understand as a nude model who's been body painted a lot.
And this gal was like, you know what? Fuck it. I don't care.
My boyfriend's the one that cares so much.

(45:06):
Let's just take the panties off. We're all naked anyway. Anyway,
so we went through the shoot.
He body painted her nude and we all had a great time and the images came out
really fun and everybody was happy with them except her boyfriend who saw the photos,
saw that she wasn't wearing panties in them, even though we were like,

(45:26):
highly edited body paint robots, right? There's nothing weird or sexual going on.
He freaked the fuck out. And he started sending that photographer death threats.
And he was like, you better delete all those pictures and take them down.
And so sadly, the photographer body painter was pressured into deleting all these images.

(45:47):
Even though he had a model released technically, legally, he would be able to use them.
He didn't want to deal with the threats and the negative drama that he was getting.
And that's the kind of drama that
you could get when you're working with somebody who's not experienced.
They might have a psycho boyfriend, which is often a detriment of working with

(46:09):
non-professional models.
And it's not the model's fault. It's the fact that they don't have a support
system around them of people who support what they do or the people who aren't
supportive haven't been kicked out of their life yet.
When you're new to modeling, then you don't know the negative things that could

(46:30):
be happening to you or to the people close to you in this situation.
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Luckily...
I was already modeling when I got with my husband, but honestly,
I think he would have still been supportive and like, he's been supportive the
whole way, but there's times when, yeah,
you know, family members assume things or, you know, I, I just,

(46:51):
I'm mostly really lucky in my situation,
but I've heard a lot of stuff where it's feels, you know, I feel bad for these
people really bad because, you know, they should just trust you that you're
doing your part and that, you know, after a point, you know what you're doing.
And getting yourself into. Yeah.
And I know that for some photographers, there's an allure to working with models

(47:12):
who have never posed nude before, or they never been body painted before.
And it's their first time. And there's
some kind of an excitement because there's a level of trust in that.
But that's when bad stuff could happen afterwards.
Oftentimes, if that model doesn't already have a lot of that work out there,
they will contact the photographer and ask them to take it down because,

(47:35):
you know, they're getting married or they have a new job.
And there's a lot of wishy-washiness that comes around working with people who
aren't full-time professionals.
And that's, I mean, oftentimes when I see photographers complaining about this
sort of thing happening to them from a TFP shoot, I have a snarky comment that I sometimes leave.

(47:56):
Hashtag top reasons to hire professionals because Because we're not going to
come with this bag of drama.
And it's going to be a positive experience where we show up on time,
not hungover, reliable with good poses and lots of creativity.
But there's a lot of photographers out there that are not willing to pay.

(48:18):
And so they are missing out on all of the positive experiences that they could
be having if they worked with vetted experience models.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I have a crazy story about a model.
Okay. So this is my experience. All right. So like,
Well, I was in this situation. So anyway, in my early days of modeling,

(48:39):
I used to work with this guy who has passed away since.
I worked with him all over the place. He was unhinged too.
He would make you do an overnight trip, a cold trip, cold shoot,
and a body paint shoot before you get paid.
Now, in my early days, I didn't know better about this and I was being trained to an extent.
So it kind of made sense to me that you should start off TFP and work your way into paid.

(49:00):
So anyways, so we went on this overnight trip. I actually brought my oldest
son, who at the time was only like four months old and breastfeeding.
But there was two other models.
And so we were just going to take turns. And they had already been around him.
So they were just going to help with him a little.
So we went out from Salt Lake to Wendover to shoot sunrise on the salt flats

(49:22):
when there was water on it.
And this guy, he was like a major geology nerd. So he knew all these things.
And he would actually quiz us on the way in and give us bonus money.
He will give us fun facts on the way in give us
bonus money when he would quiz us on the way out if we remembered what
he told us you know mostly models are on their phones
a lot not paying attention i think okay that's why but anyways

(49:44):
he was fun but we were gonna you know drive in and he knew where to drive safely
without getting stuck in the cell flats because people will get these really
expensive tow fees so anyways we go out we shoot in the motel room and then
we're We're going to wake up early.
But the one model and actually both models in this situation had did did bad

(50:06):
things to this guy. But he was also his own problem.
So anyways, the one girl in this situation, she ended up up all night arguing
with her ex-boyfriend and drank a whole bottle of fireball.
OK, so then he had stayed up to like hold space with her. But.

(50:27):
And so, and I wake up and it's like probably 7.30, the sun's already up.
And I'm like, oh, why didn't you wake me up?
And, you know, and like, he tells me what happened. And I'm like,
you know, we could have just left and we could have come back.
And then ended up, you know, they would have still been asleep or something.

(50:48):
And we would have gotten to shoot and not had the drama people with us.
But, you know, he didn't. So whatever.
Whatever and anyways so that was a bummer you
know in that situation it's hard to know that that was going to happen unless
of course he knew she was having x trauma but and that she was like you know
she was a substance abuser potentially who knows these are kind of hard things

(51:10):
to know in advance right the other thing about the other model that i think
is really important and why even if you don't take a picture of a model's id
because i know there's a lot of people not.
Wanting you to do that for safety reasons for themselves
i understand but i think you should look at
the ids of models that look kind of in the barely legal
range because the other model apparently was

(51:32):
only 17 the whole time the whole year
i worked with him at first she was 17 and had
a fake id that she was 19 and so
then he found out after the fact like after the
year was up and had to destroy all the
images and a bunch of other people in the community had also shot
with her and had to destroy their images as well so

(51:53):
you know i would say and i've heard this from
other photographers where they say they generally try to shoot people that
are 21 or older instead of just
18 and i think that's a good policy yeah just
so that you're not going to have to deal with like the drama teenagers yes
anyway so if you're targeting models who
just turn 18 just be aware that you're possibly

(52:17):
signing up for like some intense drama and
I think there's a lot of photographers out there that know that that still do
it anyway because they have some kind of an obsession with the barely legal
thing but you know to each their own I'm not gonna poke that bag too hard but
what I'm saying is that you know it's implied that they're working with

(52:39):
somebody who's not experienced and might potentially be very unprofessional.
So that's a whole bag right there. Yeah. Yeah. Go on.
I was reminded of something. So you were talking about like working with people
who, you know, never done a nude shoot or never done a body paint shoot.
Right. So I have this photographer who is local to me and I've worked with a bunch.

(53:04):
Now he won't hire me anymore, but he has then since wanted to offer me a $50
incentive fee to help him scout models and get models to work with
him but he only wants to pay like 50 bucks an hour
now or like 75 an hour so like you know
it's super low but he wants to work with
people that are brand new and so I refuse actually

(53:27):
I will not I will not like enable this
because unless they've expressed interest and
I think they can handle it on their own then maybe I'll connect them and
get my 50 bucks but I just feel really like iffy
about this whole thing because he has told me
and complained as I got more experience that
oh I was too poved now yeah and this

(53:49):
and that but then I had looked at some photos that this fan that found photos
he took sent to me that I had forgotten about or never seen I don't know but
they were all these poses where I feel like I thought I had posed in a way that
It wasn't showing my crotch area.
But 90% of them were showing.

(54:11):
So it's like, you know, you get your pose and then he adjusts his position and had taken the shot.
And so I think that's one of the reasons he likes to work with models is because
they don't know their angles. And I don't know.
They can't stand up for their boundaries as much and say, no,
you can't shoot that way.
This and that. And so, you know, it's just like that's that's,

(54:31):
I think, an incentive. or a
reason why a lot of people want to shoot the newer or, yeah, I don't know.
And he also, I will say, oh, well, I know this person.
And he'll say, no, I have someone picked out. And then he'll want me to go talk to them for him.
And I'm like, but why can't you just give them your business card and have your work speak for itself?

(54:54):
That's very ignorant. He sounds like he's a little creepy.
Anyway, so, you know, be wary of people, I think, that have a lot of younger
looking models in their portfolio. If they have a lot of crotchies,
it's just all these things. Yeah, definitely.
And I will say, though, that we're, as experienced models, Having blacklist

(55:15):
information about photographers who have this kind of behavior is very important.
I will say that there was
a blacklist going around in Seattle for many years that a lot of inexperienced
models had access to and were contributing to it and would leave notes about
photographers that they felt were not great experiences.

(55:40):
But they would put notes in there that were not blacklistable behavior into the blacklist.
And a lot of photographers' names got added to this blacklist for stuff that
was not blacklist behavior.
For example, one of them was a photographer had posted things on Twitter that
indicated that he was, you know, body shaming models of certain sizes, which is like,

(56:05):
okay, that's tasteless, but it's not blacklistable.
And another one was a model had an experience where this is another one where
it was her first body paint shoot and she was blacklisted.
Shooting with a body paint photographer who was very well known in the community, very loved by many.
And he had suggested it would mess up the paint with the panties.

(56:29):
And she didn't want to not wear panties. So she said that he was coercing her
into a nude shoot that she wasn't comfortable with.
However, she said she really liked all the photos in his portfolio,
which are not involving panties.
And so she left a blacklist note on this spreadsheet that had been getting passed

(56:50):
around the Seattle model community,
there were a lot of legitimate blacklist predators on that list.
But because there was a lot of not blacklistable behavior on the blacklist, somehow, somewhere,
that list ended up getting deleted because it was a shared spreadsheet document

(57:13):
that models would just pass around with each other, all you had to do was share
the link and then other people could edit it.
Anybody that had the link could edit it. It got completely deleted.
So now that blacklist is gone because it was in the hands of people who were irresponsible with it.
And so this is another, like, it's kind of a tough thing.

(57:33):
Like we want to bring safety information to the new model community,
but there are a lot of new models that will cry wolf over things that are not.
Necessarily blacklistable. Yeah, exactly.
And it's like, as much as you want to be what we call a girl's girl,
you know, and there are times where the model or the woman is in the wrong.

(57:57):
And I don't think that, you know, women are always right. It's also like,
I don't think the customer is always right, you know, so...
Yeah, you know, and but it's important to look at all sides, all the sides.
And remember that, you know, like some people will take advantage just because
of their position. Yeah.
And, you know, not like saying that I don't believe certain things have happened

(58:22):
when people state them, but I have witnessed and seen models who are not experienced,
who do have a history of drama,
posting lies about photographers because they didn't get their edits in time.
They will post straight up lies about this person because they were pissed that
they didn't get edits out of a TFP arrangement and stuff like that.

(58:46):
And this is just another reason why it is important for photographers to check
references with their friends or even with other experienced models.
If you're a photographer and you are friends with a full time experienced model
that you trust and you're considering working with somebody,
ask around, even if it's your model friends. because we're aware of what's going on in the community.

(59:09):
We can help you out. If we're aware of a model that is problematic,
we'll let you know. Absolutely.
Yeah. I've told this to many photographers because I had a couple recently.
Say, oh, well, I'm not really sure about like sourcing on my hand.
There's a lot of people in that are local to my state or my area that just don't
seem like they're really, you know, into this or my style of model.

(59:33):
I want to shoot, you know, to me, tattoos, whatever, you know, their style is.
And I'm like, well, just ask me, you know, I'll let you know.
Like I can I can recommend people to you if you want, you know, and it's good.
And I think that case to ask them for permission to send people their way,
because I've had a lot of people get overwhelmed with model mayhem and say,

(59:54):
I don't know, I don't even want to look at the travel notices or the local people.
I'd rather just have you recommend people directly to me.
And if they come from you, I trust that they're good. And I'm like,
that's a lot of power in my hands. I, you know, it's like, I want to,
this is another thing is, you know, no name dropping.
We have this in the community that even if you passed on to somebody,

(01:00:15):
that's like, let your speech, your, your own communication and your work speak
for itself and don't name drop. Yeah, totally.
I do think that name dropping is very like irritating when somebody is like,
oh, I worked with so-and-so and such-and-so and this person and that person in this workshop.
And I'm like, okay, well, here we are together to work together.
Other can we just focus on what we're doing yeah totally

(01:00:38):
yeah well it's like on one hand they're doing
it to make themselves look safe on another hand they're doing it to
make themselves look cool yeah you know are right on their coat pels and it's
like you know I've been guilty of it and it also then had to be pointed out
to me like hey don't do this this is if you know it's just it's not a thing
that it's cool that we do and I was like oh I wasn't aware you know I just wasn't

(01:01:01):
even something I consciously realized.
So when I've had models ask me for advice, that's one of the key things I tell
them is, you know, you don't name drop.
If someone shares a list of contacts, you know, just send out your message to them on your own.
And if they choose to work with you, it's based on that and your look and not
because of who you know, because.

(01:01:22):
I've even had situations where someone thought they were in good standing with
someone, like the model thought that the photographer liked them.
And then they send and they say, oh, yeah, and you can say I recommended you.
And then that actually backfires, because then later, even if they do hire you,
they proceed to tell you something about that model they don't like.

(01:01:43):
And I'm like, oh, so it's like, you know, I just think overall,
unless you 100 percent know. And I had that photographer say,
yeah, feel free to tell them, you know, to say that you sent them.
So I know it's really like a slippery slope.
A slippery slope indeed. Yeah, I think so, too.
So in summary, like, I feel like there is some kind of a shift in the community

(01:02:10):
of photographers who shoot models frequently that could be done beyond just
leaving model mayhem credits.
Like what I believe is that there should be a more compassionate community of
people, especially photographers who will talk to each other.
And I'm confident in saying that because, you know, I don't I don't I don't

(01:02:31):
have too many skeletons in my closet. I don't think that there's going to be
many people that are talking shit about you and me because we know that we are
reliable and we know there's a lot of people out there that are not reliable.
But like as people who are really active in the community, you and I and many
other peers of ours know that if photographers were hiring vetted,

(01:02:52):
experienced professionals, they would have positive experiences.
Experiences yeah obviously there's always exceptions to that
but i hear so many negative stories
and complaints from photographers that could have been avoided if they
worked with somebody who was professional yep yeah 100 i mean it's just the
same thing with you know first-time models deserve a chance same as first-time

(01:03:15):
photographers but you pick your poison you know be really cautious everybody
should be cautious men should be cautious you know it's just like.
Oftentimes, you know, I'm this is a little side note, but like I'm a mom of boys.
Right. And I'm the oldest of six kids. And my dad was always very wary of us
girls getting molested or something.
And he would warn us of the people in the community. So I grew up vigilant of these things.

(01:03:39):
But then when my little brothers were little, they were not he was not as vigilant.
And one of them was molested.
And so it's like, you know, women can also be not only, you know,
the abused, but the abusers.
And in multiple different ways. And it's important to be aware.

(01:04:00):
Like, you know, I think oftentimes it's just like the abuser is always thought of as a man.
And I think that's very sexist, personally. It is. I mean, the statistics do
show that it is a lot more common in that way.
But there's also a lot of people who get abused who don't report it because
they don't want to be viewed as not manly or weak or whatever.

(01:04:21):
So I'm sure there's a lot of unreported abuse going on. But to that note,
in respect to all of this, communication with your peers could help alleviate some of these issues.
If a model or anybody that anyone works with has a reputation for drama,

(01:04:42):
coercion, inappropriate behavior, whether it's a model or a photographer, this should be known.
And if we were communicating with each other, just like the model community
is pretty good at communicating with each other about this,
photographers in turn could also avoid a lot of issues if they,
you know, did their research and communicated.

(01:05:05):
I think that though there is a perceived weakness in men in particular in grouping
up to chat with each other about these things, I do think that photographers
often see each other as competition.
You know, or in the past, it seemed like models would see each other as competition.
Right now, I think that there's a lot of of ego and cattiness and competition

(01:05:29):
between photographers.
Which is why there's so many photographers that say they don't want to do group
events because they don't want to be associated with other photographers.
Now, you probably work with a lot that are cool with group events, but.
There's a lot that aren't because they they view their peers negatively,
even though they oddly all have so much in common.

(01:05:52):
Yeah, there's a lot of times where I'll ask photographers when I come to an
area. Oh, do you know anyone else in this area who pays traveling models?
Because if I can get six paid shoots, I'll come out, blah, blah,
blah. You know, that's my minimum requirement.
And they're like, I don't know anyone. And I'm like, but how do you not know anyone?
You know, it's like kind of frustrating. And also, I feel like,
yeah, the guys really do need to find some amount of camaraderie.

(01:06:16):
I do understand that there's like, you know, gear heads that can be annoying.
They're all about their gear and just like, or, you know, things like that,
or the way they come across with their ego, and they don't get along.
Long but you know i i do
wish that there were more photographers connected
with each other and i do encourage them to stay in

(01:06:37):
touch after they've potentially met through me or something you
know yeah yeah all right jess so i think this has been a really good episode
i was concerned about the topic not having enough time to fill up an hour but
we've certainly filled up more than an hour And I feel really confident that
this would be helpful to photographers listening.

(01:06:58):
Yeah, absolutely. And I hope everyone, you know, just takes their time to do
a little bit of extra research too.
Music.