September 3, 2025 • 25 mins
When pressure hits, most people either avoid the tough conversation—or push too hard and make a mess. In this powerful conversation, Bill Benjamin (co-author of Performing Under Pressure and partner at the Institute for Health and Human Potential) breaks down “last 8% moments,” why our body’s cortisol response makes them unforgettable, and how to build a culture that’s both high-care and high-accountability. We dig into practical tools to manage your emotional responses, move beyond childhood wiring, and lead skillfully when it counts most. If you run a team—or you’re your own team—this one’s a masterclass in staying composed and effective when everything’s on the line.
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Chapter Stamps:
01:32 Bill's Journey from Math to Emotional Intelligence
03:00 Understanding Emotional Intelligence
03:50 The Concept of Last 8% Moments
04:16 Research Behind the Last 8% Moments
07:17 Dealing with Childhood Conditioning
11:02 Practical Applications and Personal Experiences
18:55 Building High-Performing Cultures
Pullout Quotes:
- “We talk about people either being avoiders or make-a-messers.”
- “People remember how you showed up in those last 8% moments.”
- “Your body is your early warning system.”
- “There is a middle path where you push past that discomfort to step in, but do it skillfully.”
- “The aspiration is a culture that’s high in courage and connection—high care and high accountability.”
Social:
Website: https://ihhp.com/bill-benjamin/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-benjamin-12b671/
Disclaimer: Please be aware that the opinions and perspectives conveyed in this podcast are solely those of our guests and do not necessarily represent the views, ideologies, or principles of Super Entrepreneurs Podcast, its associated entities, or any organizations they represent or are affiliated with. We provide a platform for discussion and exploration, and the content of each episode is understood to be independent expressions from our guests, rather than a reflection of the beliefs held by the podcast or its hosts.
Affiliate Disclaimer: If you buy through one of the links provided, I may receive a commission (without any additional charge to you).
▬▬▬ SHAHID’S LINKS ▬▬▬
https://zez.am/officialshahiddurrani
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
They don't remember what you'redoing in the 92% of moments when
(00:02):
everyone was getting along andthe deadlines were being met.
They remember you inthose last 8% moments.
(00:25):
Welcome back to SuperEntrepreneurs Podcast.
I'm your host, Shahid Durrani.
I'm really excited to talkwith Bill Benjamin today.
He's someone who's spent yearsfiguring out what makes people
tick when things get hectic.
Bill Co-wrote Performing Under Pressureand Works as the partner at the
(00:49):
Institute for Health and Human Potential.
He has worked with thousands ofleaders, helping them stay sharp
when everything's on the line.
So Bill, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Shahi.
It's okay.
It's okay.
It's all good.
It's all good.
I grew up in a whole bunch of variations,so not your easiest name, but I'm
(01:12):
grateful to have you on the show.
I'm excited to talk to you, my friend.
Be here too, and I'll get your
No, it's okay.
Over, you know, I just found out thatyou're Canadian as well and you're
coming to visit, so it'll be reallynice to hopefully see you in person.
As well.
And we'll take some content.
Who knows?
Be awesome.
Yeah.
So I'm curious about your journey.
(01:34):
You started out in math, in computerscience and now you're helping
people perform better under pressure.
Can you share what made that switch?
Was it a some kind of a lifecircumstance or was it something that
you were planning all the way along?
Oh, there was never a plan to
I know.
(01:55):
intelligence
Yeah,
got my degree in mathematics.
yeah
yeah, li life, life happened.
yeah.
spent 14 years at a computer softwarecompany after getting my degrees
in mathematics, computer science atWaterloo University for those Canadians
that are listening in and you know.
I was a high performer.
And what do organizationsdo with the high performers?
(02:16):
they promote them, make 'em a manager.
Well it turned out Iwasn't a very good manager.
People didn't really like working for me.
I wasn't creating a great cultureon my team or, or being a great
leader and inspiring people.
and this was a time in my life when Iwas struggling, you know, personally
with anxiety and stress and I was justfortunate enough to get exposed to this
work that we're gonna talk about around.
(02:37):
Culture and emotional intelligence.
And so I was a customerof, of this company first.
And the work really helped me.
It helped me be a better leader.
It also just helped me,you know, personally.
And so eventually four years later Idecided to leave the computer software
industry and do this for a living.
You know, speak and teachand coach on this topic.
(02:59):
Hmm.
So, and emotional intelligenceis a big component of this.
Can you share any situationin your journey where, you
know, emotional intelligencesaved a day for you personally?
absolutely.
I mean, you know, when, when
Yeah.
promoted, you know, my models of,you know, being a coach and and
(03:22):
building a team were my high schoolbasketball coach and what I saw
of college football coaches on tv.
So I literally thought you ranaround and yelled at everybody
and tell them what to do.
I.
Yeah.
I literally would yell at people atwork know, and, and so it, it turns
out that's, people don't really likethat, that's not very effective.
And so I, I first had torecognize, you know, the impact
that was having on people.
(03:43):
And secondly, learn some toolsand skills and, and a different
way to approach building aculture and, and, and in our work.
It's really around how you showup in your last 8% moments.
Mm,
And that's something that we, that, thatyou know, is really critical to your
reputation to building culture in yourteam is what we call last 8% moments.
(04:03):
last 8% moment.
Last 8% moments.
Yes.
So eight.
Eight in a number.
Okay.
Can you elaborate on that last eight?
I have an idea, but I, I'm pretty surepeople would like to know more about that.
Yeah.
And, and the good news is there isresearch that backs it, but it actually
comes from an experience we had probablyseven or eight years ago where my business
(04:23):
partner, jp, who founded the company,he was coaching two leaders at a large
organization, and they weren't gettingalong like that ever happens, right?
Or, or it could be.
I,
I.
you know, I know a lot of yourlisteners are entrepreneurs.
It could be a partner, could besomeone you're not getting along with.
And they were coached to have aconversation with each other about the
impact they were having on each other.
So they go and they have the conversation.
(04:44):
They come back from the conversation,the coaches individually
ask them, how did it go?
And they both are like, oh, went fine.
Well, the coaches know a little better,so the coaches pushed and said, yeah,
but did you say the things we reallysaid you needed to say to that person?
And they both said, effectively, I got 85,90, 90 5% of the way there, and the other
guy started reacting and I held back.
(05:07):
didn't really say that last five or10% the part that needed to be said.
I held back.
And that's a common experiencethat you know so many of us have.
Yes.
took, we took that idea and we did a studyon 34,000 people and determined that on
average it's 7.5600000000000005%, whichwe rounded up to eight, people feel they
(05:28):
leave unsaid in a difficult conversation.
Hmm.
as we workshop that people said, well,it isn't just difficult conversations.
There's also tough decisions I face.
There's the easy ones, the92% where everyone's agreeing.
But then when I have to take a risk or Ihave to give somebody bad news, or I have
Yes.
that someone won't like, for example,when I was first learning this, sometimes
(05:50):
I would let whoever was gonna screamthe loudest if they didn't get their
way, influence my decision becausethey didn't want to deal with them.
So I wouldn't always
Yeah.
I would sometimes makethe easier decision.
Yes.
Yes,
So these last 8% moments are the critical,
I.
You know, pressure filled, you know,emotionally intense moments that we have.
(06:13):
And we know that they're particularlyimportant a leader to build
culture and at home, by the waybecause of the cortisol effect.
And Shahe, the cortisol effect isthat when there's tension, when
there's pressure, when there'suncertainty, when there's a last
80% moment, cortisol gets released.
One of the things that does isit causes memories to sear in.
(06:34):
So people remember how you showedup in those last 8% moments.
They don't remember what you'redoing in the 92% of moments when
everyone was getting along andthe deadlines were being met.
They remember you inthose last 8% moments.
So that is that.
It's like when I was running aroundyelling at people, you know, there
could be lots of times when I was,you know, coaching them in a good way,
but they remember those times theyremember the times you didn't step in.
(06:56):
Mm-hmm.
and so these last day, some momentsare actually critical to leadership,
to your reputation and and, and tothe culture you build on your team.
Hmm, good, good.
Excellent.
Because I can think of so manysituations where I, you know,
held back those last 8% as well.
When you are working with someone.
(07:17):
There's usually this deeper, aclutter that needs to be cleared.
Because what if an individual has a codingor programming, or conditioning, whatever
you want to call it, growing up, and theyhave this, you know, insecurities, victim
(07:37):
mindset, like a lot of is, is very common,
it's very ingrained in the subconsciousand the unconscious side of the person.
How do you work with them to beable to go through those last
8% when they have something thatcontrols them automatically,
oh, you're, you're so right.
I, I mean, and that, that avoid, thoseare built-in neuro pathways in our
(08:01):
Yeah.
are seared in initially bythe time we're five years old.
So our
Mm-hmm.
neuro pathway architecture,now, it can change.
The good news is the, the,the brain's malleable.
I.
Mm-hmm.
but you're right, A lot of those defaultbehaviors are wanting to avoid are,
are, are seared in from childhood.
Then what happens?
Then it gets reinforced.
for example, my, the firstcouple times I had to have a
(08:22):
difficult last 8% conversation.
Give somebody some feedback.
I, I've given the feedback andthey're just staring at me.
not saying anything and I'mthinking, oh, this is going well.
I finish and they leave.
And of course the behavior doesn't changebecause unbeknownst to me, they were
completely triggered and couldn't hear me.
I. The second
Oh
(08:43):
I, I,
yeah.
give the person the feedback.
I'm not two minutes into theconversation when they start reacting,
they start getting defensive.
Now they're telling me it's my fault.
I, I'm on the, now I'm on the otherend of a feedback conversation.
so I, I had two, you know, bad experienceswith, with last 8% moments, which
reinforced my, my feeling that, well,I guess I'm just not any good at this.
(09:04):
I'm just gonna avoid them.
So you're absolutely right.
We all have this internal programmingthat can either come from childhood
or, and or our, our, our experiences.
So yeah, I mean, so, so, you know,then the question you asked is,
well, what do you do about that?
Hmm.
I. Yeah.
That's where the emotionalintelligence work comes in.
So all, all of our work on, you know,helping leaders develop you know, high
(09:27):
performing cultures on their teams,which are established in those last
80% moments, is about understandingand recognizing your emotions and why
you're, we, we avoid because of fear.
We avoid because we think theperson's gonna be upset at us.
They're not gonna like
Mm-hmm.
leave.
They're gonna get defensive.
Like, so it's all, it's, it's the fearpart of our brain that causes us to
(09:48):
Mm-hmm.
By the way, I just, just for someof your listeners who are thinking,
well, I don't really avoid that much.
We know from our research, 68%of people, their predictable
default behavior is to avoid.
So it is the most common default behavior.
But then I say the 32% andI fall into this category.
Sometimes I'm in thatdifficult conversation.
The other person starts getting defensive.
(10:10):
Instead of stepping back, I nowturn around and I'm attacking back.
I'm coming on too strongand I'm making a mess of it.
So we talk about people eitherbeing avoiders or make a messers.
Yeah, yeah.
Every, every, everybody,everybody laughs at that.
'cause we, and, and you know, we'reobviously complex human beings.
For most of
Yeah.
in which, more likely to avoid situationswhere we're more likely to make a mess.
(10:33):
The good news is there is a middle pathwhere you push past that discomfort
to step in, but do it skillfully soyou're not avoiding or making a mess.
Mm-hmm.
and, and that's reallyis what we're teaching.
Mm-hmm.
Folks, you know, so that they canhave a high performing culture
on their team so they can lead
Mm.
effectively.
(10:54):
Yeah.
The, the reason why I wasmentioning that or brought it up
is because I've done it myself.
I've invested thousands.
I've done almost everything I could withall types of hacks and tricks and, and
systems and processes, but I found thatuntil I became aware of those little.
(11:19):
Conditioning or programming,if you want to use that word.
I don't, whatever word you want touse, but as a child up to age eight,
we have this part of, you know,automatic stuff that gets coated.
So you could do whateveryou want on the other side.
You could do all that stuff that'sgreat for the time, for the moment,
but if you don't heal what's going onthere, if you don't clear some of the
clutter there from the childhood, itkeeps haunting you no matter what you
(11:42):
do on the surface level as an adult.
So that's why I want that.
It's literally storedtrauma and it's stored
Yeah.
your brain, it's storedin your neuropathways.
It's actually, it's stored in your body.
There's a, there's a great bookcalled The Body Keeps the Score.
If, if, if you were in the jungleand you knew there was a tiger that
had attacked you yesterday and youhear wind rusting in the bushes, you
(12:04):
have to assume the wind is a tiger.
And now you're acting, even thoughit's not a real situation, right,
Yes.
experience that you had.
So you, you're, you're right that thebody, you know, the, the, the clearing out
of, of that and it does start your body.
So, so the, the coaching we give peoplearound that awareness is to actually, your
body will, is your early warning system.
(12:24):
It will know first.
So
Mm.
when I start
It does.
and I'm gonna move to myavoid or make a mess, default
behaviors I, my chest gets tight.
Hmm.
hands shake a little
Still happens.
Oh yeah, of course.
Oh yeah.
I got back,
I.
got upset at my girlfriend two nights ago.
You know, we had a fight.
I mean, and that's the other thingis, you know, we're all not perfect.
(12:44):
I've been working on this for, for28 years and there's still times when
I'm not perfect and I get triggered.
And so, you know, we're,we're not perfect either.
You know, obviously how werespond and how we react.
So yes, I still sometimes feelthat tightness in my chest.
I, I feel heat in my face.
You know, a lot of people talk abouttheir stomach, you know, gets upset.
So you know, as soon as you feelit in your body, that's your
(13:07):
body telling you you're having anemotional reaction you're gonna go
to your fight or flight responses.
You avoid or make a messresponses and you're not gonna be
Still.
And the funny thing is, when I was in mytransformation or my journey, whenever
those kind of situations would happen, Iwould say, shit, why is this happening?
And.
Know, I don't want it to happenbecause I'm in a flow and I got
(13:30):
it all down, I'm high vibing, I'mlike feeling great and I'm just
really momentum based, enthusiastic.
Everything is going great based on oursuper framework, we just, we, we actually
wanna create that framework in our life.
So I'm, I'm actually living it, butthen something happens, someone else
does something and I was say, oh man,I wish never, these never happened.
(13:52):
But then I realized.
Mm-hmm.
That I shifted that,you know, a little bit.
So I realized that, wait a minute,I got guidance too, obviously, but I
realized that I can't run away from that.
You can't run away from it.
You can't hide from it.
You gotta just deal with it.
And then I went to theinner child, all that work,
Mm-hmm.
to deal with why that's happening.
(14:12):
And I, I found it reallysomething very interesting.
The more you work on that child versionof you those things start decreasing.
In their effectiveness against you.
So what happened was I started gettingexcited, then I started shifting it,
that these situations are happeningbecause I need to learn from them.
(14:34):
It's like it's like, you know,you're going to the gym, you're
saying, okay, there's this,there's different type of machine.
You're not used to it.
You want to challenge yourself and use it.
So same way I think that thesethings were coming to me.
'cause I needed to cha be challengedto see if I can handle it.
So I took it as.
As practice, you know, going to the gym.
So every time I would, I would, I wouldlook out, I would, I would actually go
(14:56):
in environments because I would knowthat these environments sometimes get
very heightened on the political side or,you know, religious side or something.
So I know it goes there.
So I just wanted to, and it is like.
It just happens like, like, likea prerecorded movie, you know?
It's like you always know whereit's gonna end up, unfortunately,
(15:18):
with cer certain groups.
So, and then you just wanna seeif you can, you can handle this.
So I would, I would put myselfand, and practice, practice and
then create that calmness fromexperience of the trauma itself.
Not run from it, you know?
absolutely.
I mean, you know, we, we do
Yeah.
athletes and so we, we don'tstart the mental training two
(15:40):
weeks before the Olympics.
We start two years before
Yes.
In the qualifying tournaments wherethere's pressure, but less pressure.
So coach people you know, particularlythe ones who are avoiding, but
even the ones who are making a mess
Mm-hmm.
in your less triggering moments.
'cause if you wait till your hardestsituation, you're just gonna go
right to your default behavior.
(16:01):
Emotional brain's gonna react.
So yes, we
Yeah.
in the less
Practice.
a, a great example by the way, is.
Just when you're in the 12 items orless checkout line and you're running
late and there's somebody two in frontof you and they have 14 items, you
know, 'cause you counted, that's whereyou can stop and practice, right?
Yeah.
These are all lessons.
awesome opportunities in life to
(16:22):
Yeah, yeah.
So much.
managing those emotional responses.
So that you can step in moreskillfully and again, as as,
as a kind of math brain guy.
What I've also learned is thatwhen we're in that last 8%
moment and we get triggered.
We move toward our avoid or make amess behaviors, we also lose working
memory, means we can't think as clearly.
(16:45):
Mm-hmm.
as many options.
We don't have access to long-termmemory, so we're actually not as smart.
So it
Mm-hmm.
you know, EQ or iq.
and iq.
If
Mm-hmm.
moment you can manage your responses,you can actually step in, you can
listen better, you can be moreempathetic, but you could also.
Push through the discomfort to getpast that avoidance and, and step in.
(17:08):
So it's, it's about using the bestof your IQ in a last 8% moment by
Mm.
emotional responses.
Yeah, at the end of the day is practice.
Practice makes perfect, but
Yeah.
the more you practice this stuffthe easier and better it gets.
And, and being in that situation.
With that calmness, it changes everything.
(17:30):
Like you mentioned, you'recoming up with responses better.
You can have a communication.
You, you, you know what I mean?
When you're reacting that the anger'sso strong that even with the stuff that
you're saying is, is usually garbage.
You're not making any sense.
But when you have the calmest mind,that's why we work with our students.
We work on the calmness of mind.
We want to create that.
(17:51):
Calmness internally.
'cause from that calmness,that creative nature starts
evolving into this, , experience.
So it was very important andI really appreciate of you,
of what you're doing, right?
Because this organization thatyou have created, and then on top
of that, doing these podcasts,
Mm-hmm.
they're so important.
(18:12):
Having these kind of discussions on shows.
And their communities or networks, you'regetting that message out because subtype
is right under our nose and we don'trealize that it might be holding us back.
And the more people like you areout there sharing this is the
more awareness is coming intopeople's lives and, and families.
(18:33):
I talk about families inentrepreneurship world, but that's
a completely interconnected, youknow, everything's interconnected,
and Chad,
So.
I really appreciate the work you're doing.
You're doing the hard work.
You're the one creating the podcast.
I just get to kind of
Yeah.
and, and,
Thanks.
So you're, you're, you'redoing the hard work.
The other,
Thanks.
other thing I, I thought thatwould be interesting to your
listeners, 'cause I know a lot
Yeah.
lead teams and are,are wanting to build a,
(18:54):
Yeah.
high performing culture is, is some ofour more recent research around culture.
And, and again, we did a, a study on72,000 people, kind of combine it with
some of Sarah Sewell's work at Stanford.
Sorry, Stanford and we discoveredthat there's two key pillars
to a high performing culture.
One is connection.
That's psychological safety.
(19:15):
People feel cared about, theyfeel valued, and that is critical.
And when people do culture and valuestype work, they tend to focus on that.
But what they often miss is thesecond key pillar, which is courage.
The ability to do difficult things to stepinto these last 8% moments skillfully.
And we took those two pillarsand created a culture map.
(19:37):
I just wanted to talk about,you know, a couple of the
quadrants on the culture map.
'cause I think it'll resonatefor, for, for your listeners.
One is if you think of a culture that'shigh in courage, but low in connection,
that's a transactional culture.
Where results matter over relationships.
When something happens,people are making a mess.
They're blaming toxic people areallowed to, you know, allowed to
(20:00):
stay because they get results.
It, it's high anxiety and high burnout.
It can achieve results overthe short term, but it's not
Mm-hmm.
the long term.
So that's your transactional culture.
That's, you know, kind ofhigh courage, low connection.
Then there's a culture that'sconnection, but low courage.
a family culture.
(20:21):
That's a nice culture.
But people are unwilling orunable to do hard things.
It does
Mm-hmm.
be more of an avoidance culture.
'cause I. You don't wanna upset people,you don't want people not to like you.
There's less accountability, a slowerdecision making 'cause everybody
has to, you know, be happy andthere's nothing wrong with consensus
decision making, but taken too far.
It really slows things down.
(20:42):
And we actually have an assessmentwhere we can assess, you know, where
a team is on, on this culture map.
And a lot of our clients are in afamily culture, and there's a lot of
good things about a family culture.
Because there's high trust.
There's high care, it's notenough to be high performing.
and you know, we'd like to say,well, you're not actually a family.
You can't fire your lowest performing kid.
I. Right.
(21:04):
so, you know, the aspiration, you know,where we're helping our, our clients get
to is a culture that's high in courageand connection, which is characterized by
high care and high accountability whereit's both results and relationships.
'cause people
Mm-hmm.
well, if we have to focus onaccountability and performance
conversations, that's gonnaderail care and connection.
(21:26):
But it doesn't have to.
It can be done together.
Very good.
Holistic.
it's also a highly innovative environmentbecause people are willing to take risks.
It's okay to make a mistake.
Mm-hmm.
by the way, people arechallenging each other's.
It's a feedback richenvironment where people are
Mm-hmm.
other's ideas.
Good.
we're, what we're doing is, you know, mostof our clients are either in transactional
(21:47):
or family, and we're helping them move toa high care and high connection culture
Good.
that we call last, thatwe call last 8% culture.
Great.
I love that last 8%.
It's a big idea.
I never heard anybody look at that lastportion because that is where honestly,
(22:10):
a relationship can be built or destroyed.
Because everything is relationshipbased, like businesses are run, on
relationship, toxic environment,that's not a human environment.
That's really pre 2019.
It's like we're at adifferent level right now.
Top performers are operating withthe mind, body, and soul , holistic
(22:34):
type of experience they're creatingfor themselves and empowering others.
That's the future of leaders,
you, work with a Olympic athletes, topexecutives, high performers, what's
that one thing that you find that isvery common when it comes to mindset
or habits that they could improve on
(22:57):
so with the, I mean, what peopleneed to approve on, and everybody's
a little bit different, right?
Some are avoiders,
Yeah
you know, what I would say is, is, iswhat's common to the people who are making
those improvements is, is a willingnessto learn, to be self-aware, to accept
feedback to, you know, because we can'tget better if we don't have the awareness
of, you know, where our blind spotsare of, of what some of what you talked
(23:19):
coachability.
Our past traumas, coachability,willingness to look at
Hmm.
and willingness to change.
Self-aware.
Mm-hmm.
You know, a not a fixed mindset, right.
You know,
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You, you've gotta have a, you know, a,a a mindset where you're open to change.
Yeah.
and, and that's, and, and, you know.
What we're then really working with peopleon is, okay, once they've recognized
(23:41):
some of their patterns that are having animpact on, you know, how they're showing
up in their last 8% moments is to learnsome tools and skills to be better and
Mm.
be coached on that.
But they, I, I'm oftenasked to coach people.
My number one question is,do they wanna be coached?
Yes.
And you
A very important question.
to be coached.
(24:02):
know, they
Yeah.
about anything, you know, and
Yeah.
That's, that's the critical pieceis are they really open to feedback?
Are they really open to looking atthemselves and saying, yeah, you know, I'm
sometimes not at my best in these moments.
I, I could do betterand I want to do better.
That's the key for us.
Mm-hmm.
If
Wonderful.
for Carol direct's work fixed
Yeah, the,
(24:23):
that's the
yeah.
Having an open mind, is very important.
So wonderful.
It was great having youon the show, my friend.
I appreciate your presence and whatyou were sharing and what you're
doing for people, kudos to you.
Keep going.
Definitely keep in touch.
They don't remember what you'redoing in the 92% of moments when
(00:02):
everyone was getting along andthe deadlines were being met.
They remember you inthose last 8% moments.
(00:25):
Welcome back to SuperEntrepreneurs Podcast.
I'm your host, Shahid Durrani.
I'm really excited to talkwith Bill Benjamin today.
He's someone who's spent yearsfiguring out what makes people
tick when things get hectic.
Bill Co-wrote Performing Under Pressureand Works as the partner at the
(00:49):
Institute for Health and Human Potential.
He has worked with thousands ofleaders, helping them stay sharp
when everything's on the line.
So Bill, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Shahi.
It's okay.
It's okay.
It's all good.
It's all good.
I grew up in a whole bunch of variations,so not your easiest name, but I'm
(01:12):
grateful to have you on the show.
I'm excited to talk to you, my friend.
Be here too, and I'll get your
No, it's okay.
Over, you know, I just found out thatyou're Canadian as well and you're
coming to visit, so it'll be reallynice to hopefully see you in person.
As well.
And we'll take some content.
Who knows?
Be awesome.
Yeah.
So I'm curious about your journey.
(01:34):
You started out in math, in computerscience and now you're helping
people perform better under pressure.
Can you share what made that switch?
Was it a some kind of a lifecircumstance or was it something that
you were planning all the way along?
Oh, there was never a plan to
I know.
(01:55):
intelligence
Yeah,
got my degree in mathematics.
yeah
yeah, li life, life happened.
yeah.
spent 14 years at a computer softwarecompany after getting my degrees
in mathematics, computer science atWaterloo University for those Canadians
that are listening in and you know.
I was a high performer.
And what do organizationsdo with the high performers?
(02:16):
they promote them, make 'em a manager.
Well it turned out Iwasn't a very good manager.
People didn't really like working for me.
I wasn't creating a great cultureon my team or, or being a great
leader and inspiring people.
and this was a time in my life when Iwas struggling, you know, personally
with anxiety and stress and I was justfortunate enough to get exposed to this
work that we're gonna talk about around.
(02:37):
Culture and emotional intelligence.
And so I was a customerof, of this company first.
And the work really helped me.
It helped me be a better leader.
It also just helped me,you know, personally.
And so eventually four years later Idecided to leave the computer software
industry and do this for a living.
You know, speak and teachand coach on this topic.
(02:59):
Hmm.
So, and emotional intelligenceis a big component of this.
Can you share any situationin your journey where, you
know, emotional intelligencesaved a day for you personally?
absolutely.
I mean, you know, when, when
Yeah.
promoted, you know, my models of,you know, being a coach and and
(03:22):
building a team were my high schoolbasketball coach and what I saw
of college football coaches on tv.
So I literally thought you ranaround and yelled at everybody
and tell them what to do.
I.
Yeah.
I literally would yell at people atwork know, and, and so it, it turns
out that's, people don't really likethat, that's not very effective.
And so I, I first had torecognize, you know, the impact
that was having on people.
(03:43):
And secondly, learn some toolsand skills and, and a different
way to approach building aculture and, and, and in our work.
It's really around how you showup in your last 8% moments.
Mm,
And that's something that we, that, thatyou know, is really critical to your
reputation to building culture in yourteam is what we call last 8% moments.
(04:03):
last 8% moment.
Last 8% moments.
Yes.
So eight.
Eight in a number.
Okay.
Can you elaborate on that last eight?
I have an idea, but I, I'm pretty surepeople would like to know more about that.
Yeah.
And, and the good news is there isresearch that backs it, but it actually
comes from an experience we had probablyseven or eight years ago where my business
(04:23):
partner, jp, who founded the company,he was coaching two leaders at a large
organization, and they weren't gettingalong like that ever happens, right?
Or, or it could be.
I,
I.
you know, I know a lot of yourlisteners are entrepreneurs.
It could be a partner, could besomeone you're not getting along with.
And they were coached to have aconversation with each other about the
impact they were having on each other.
So they go and they have the conversation.
(04:44):
They come back from the conversation,the coaches individually
ask them, how did it go?
And they both are like, oh, went fine.
Well, the coaches know a little better,so the coaches pushed and said, yeah,
but did you say the things we reallysaid you needed to say to that person?
And they both said, effectively, I got 85,90, 90 5% of the way there, and the other
guy started reacting and I held back.
(05:07):
didn't really say that last five or10% the part that needed to be said.
I held back.
And that's a common experiencethat you know so many of us have.
Yes.
took, we took that idea and we did a studyon 34,000 people and determined that on
average it's 7.5600000000000005%, whichwe rounded up to eight, people feel they
(05:28):
leave unsaid in a difficult conversation.
Hmm.
as we workshop that people said, well,it isn't just difficult conversations.
There's also tough decisions I face.
There's the easy ones, the92% where everyone's agreeing.
But then when I have to take a risk or Ihave to give somebody bad news, or I have
Yes.
that someone won't like, for example,when I was first learning this, sometimes
(05:50):
I would let whoever was gonna screamthe loudest if they didn't get their
way, influence my decision becausethey didn't want to deal with them.
So I wouldn't always
Yeah.
I would sometimes makethe easier decision.
Yes.
Yes,
So these last 8% moments are the critical,
I.
You know, pressure filled, you know,emotionally intense moments that we have.
(06:13):
And we know that they're particularlyimportant a leader to build
culture and at home, by the waybecause of the cortisol effect.
And Shahe, the cortisol effect isthat when there's tension, when
there's pressure, when there'suncertainty, when there's a last
80% moment, cortisol gets released.
One of the things that does isit causes memories to sear in.
(06:34):
So people remember how you showedup in those last 8% moments.
They don't remember what you'redoing in the 92% of moments when
everyone was getting along andthe deadlines were being met.
They remember you inthose last 8% moments.
So that is that.
It's like when I was running aroundyelling at people, you know, there
could be lots of times when I was,you know, coaching them in a good way,
but they remember those times theyremember the times you didn't step in.
(06:56):
Mm-hmm.
and so these last day, some momentsare actually critical to leadership,
to your reputation and and, and tothe culture you build on your team.
Hmm, good, good.
Excellent.
Because I can think of so manysituations where I, you know,
held back those last 8% as well.
When you are working with someone.
(07:17):
There's usually this deeper, aclutter that needs to be cleared.
Because what if an individual has a codingor programming, or conditioning, whatever
you want to call it, growing up, and theyhave this, you know, insecurities, victim
(07:37):
mindset, like a lot of is, is very common,
it's very ingrained in the subconsciousand the unconscious side of the person.
How do you work with them to beable to go through those last
8% when they have something thatcontrols them automatically,
oh, you're, you're so right.
I, I mean, and that, that avoid, thoseare built-in neuro pathways in our
(08:01):
Yeah.
are seared in initially bythe time we're five years old.
So our
Mm-hmm.
neuro pathway architecture,now, it can change.
The good news is the, the,the brain's malleable.
I.
Mm-hmm.
but you're right, A lot of those defaultbehaviors are wanting to avoid are,
are, are seared in from childhood.
Then what happens?
Then it gets reinforced.
for example, my, the firstcouple times I had to have a
(08:22):
difficult last 8% conversation.
Give somebody some feedback.
I, I've given the feedback andthey're just staring at me.
not saying anything and I'mthinking, oh, this is going well.
I finish and they leave.
And of course the behavior doesn't changebecause unbeknownst to me, they were
completely triggered and couldn't hear me.
I. The second
Oh
(08:43):
I, I,
yeah.
give the person the feedback.
I'm not two minutes into theconversation when they start reacting,
they start getting defensive.
Now they're telling me it's my fault.
I, I'm on the, now I'm on the otherend of a feedback conversation.
so I, I had two, you know, bad experienceswith, with last 8% moments, which
reinforced my, my feeling that, well,I guess I'm just not any good at this.
(09:04):
I'm just gonna avoid them.
So you're absolutely right.
We all have this internal programmingthat can either come from childhood
or, and or our, our, our experiences.
So yeah, I mean, so, so, you know,then the question you asked is,
well, what do you do about that?
Hmm.
I. Yeah.
That's where the emotionalintelligence work comes in.
So all, all of our work on, you know,helping leaders develop you know, high
(09:27):
performing cultures on their teams,which are established in those last
80% moments, is about understandingand recognizing your emotions and why
you're, we, we avoid because of fear.
We avoid because we think theperson's gonna be upset at us.
They're not gonna like
Mm-hmm.
leave.
They're gonna get defensive.
Like, so it's all, it's, it's the fearpart of our brain that causes us to
(09:48):
Mm-hmm.
By the way, I just, just for someof your listeners who are thinking,
well, I don't really avoid that much.
We know from our research, 68%of people, their predictable
default behavior is to avoid.
So it is the most common default behavior.
But then I say the 32% andI fall into this category.
Sometimes I'm in thatdifficult conversation.
The other person starts getting defensive.
(10:10):
Instead of stepping back, I nowturn around and I'm attacking back.
I'm coming on too strongand I'm making a mess of it.
So we talk about people eitherbeing avoiders or make a messers.
Yeah, yeah.
Every, every, everybody,everybody laughs at that.
'cause we, and, and you know, we'reobviously complex human beings.
For most of
Yeah.
in which, more likely to avoid situationswhere we're more likely to make a mess.
(10:33):
The good news is there is a middle pathwhere you push past that discomfort
to step in, but do it skillfully soyou're not avoiding or making a mess.
Mm-hmm.
and, and that's reallyis what we're teaching.
Mm-hmm.
Folks, you know, so that they canhave a high performing culture
on their team so they can lead
Mm.
effectively.
(10:54):
Yeah.
The, the reason why I wasmentioning that or brought it up
is because I've done it myself.
I've invested thousands.
I've done almost everything I could withall types of hacks and tricks and, and
systems and processes, but I found thatuntil I became aware of those little.
(11:19):
Conditioning or programming,if you want to use that word.
I don't, whatever word you want touse, but as a child up to age eight,
we have this part of, you know,automatic stuff that gets coated.
So you could do whateveryou want on the other side.
You could do all that stuff that'sgreat for the time, for the moment,
but if you don't heal what's going onthere, if you don't clear some of the
clutter there from the childhood, itkeeps haunting you no matter what you
(11:42):
do on the surface level as an adult.
So that's why I want that.
It's literally storedtrauma and it's stored
Yeah.
your brain, it's storedin your neuropathways.
It's actually, it's stored in your body.
There's a, there's a great bookcalled The Body Keeps the Score.
If, if, if you were in the jungleand you knew there was a tiger that
had attacked you yesterday and youhear wind rusting in the bushes, you
(12:04):
have to assume the wind is a tiger.
And now you're acting, even thoughit's not a real situation, right,
Yes.
experience that you had.
So you, you're, you're right that thebody, you know, the, the, the clearing out
of, of that and it does start your body.
So, so the, the coaching we give peoplearound that awareness is to actually, your
body will, is your early warning system.
(12:24):
It will know first.
So
Mm.
when I start
It does.
and I'm gonna move to myavoid or make a mess, default
behaviors I, my chest gets tight.
Hmm.
hands shake a little
Still happens.
Oh yeah, of course.
Oh yeah.
I got back,
I.
got upset at my girlfriend two nights ago.
You know, we had a fight.
I mean, and that's the other thingis, you know, we're all not perfect.
(12:44):
I've been working on this for, for28 years and there's still times when
I'm not perfect and I get triggered.
And so, you know, we're,we're not perfect either.
You know, obviously how werespond and how we react.
So yes, I still sometimes feelthat tightness in my chest.
I, I feel heat in my face.
You know, a lot of people talk abouttheir stomach, you know, gets upset.
So you know, as soon as you feelit in your body, that's your
(13:07):
body telling you you're having anemotional reaction you're gonna go
to your fight or flight responses.
You avoid or make a messresponses and you're not gonna be
Still.
And the funny thing is, when I was in mytransformation or my journey, whenever
those kind of situations would happen, Iwould say, shit, why is this happening?
And.
Know, I don't want it to happenbecause I'm in a flow and I got
(13:30):
it all down, I'm high vibing, I'mlike feeling great and I'm just
really momentum based, enthusiastic.
Everything is going great based on oursuper framework, we just, we, we actually
wanna create that framework in our life.
So I'm, I'm actually living it, butthen something happens, someone else
does something and I was say, oh man,I wish never, these never happened.
(13:52):
But then I realized.
Mm-hmm.
That I shifted that,you know, a little bit.
So I realized that, wait a minute,I got guidance too, obviously, but I
realized that I can't run away from that.
You can't run away from it.
You can't hide from it.
You gotta just deal with it.
And then I went to theinner child, all that work,
Mm-hmm.
to deal with why that's happening.
(14:12):
And I, I found it reallysomething very interesting.
The more you work on that child versionof you those things start decreasing.
In their effectiveness against you.
So what happened was I started gettingexcited, then I started shifting it,
that these situations are happeningbecause I need to learn from them.
(14:34):
It's like it's like, you know,you're going to the gym, you're
saying, okay, there's this,there's different type of machine.
You're not used to it.
You want to challenge yourself and use it.
So same way I think that thesethings were coming to me.
'cause I needed to cha be challengedto see if I can handle it.
So I took it as.
As practice, you know, going to the gym.
So every time I would, I would, I wouldlook out, I would, I would actually go
(14:56):
in environments because I would knowthat these environments sometimes get
very heightened on the political side or,you know, religious side or something.
So I know it goes there.
So I just wanted to, and it is like.
It just happens like, like, likea prerecorded movie, you know?
It's like you always know whereit's gonna end up, unfortunately,
(15:18):
with cer certain groups.
So, and then you just wanna seeif you can, you can handle this.
So I would, I would put myselfand, and practice, practice and
then create that calmness fromexperience of the trauma itself.
Not run from it, you know?
absolutely.
I mean, you know, we, we do
Yeah.
athletes and so we, we don'tstart the mental training two
(15:40):
weeks before the Olympics.
We start two years before
Yes.
In the qualifying tournaments wherethere's pressure, but less pressure.
So coach people you know, particularlythe ones who are avoiding, but
even the ones who are making a mess
Mm-hmm.
in your less triggering moments.
'cause if you wait till your hardestsituation, you're just gonna go
right to your default behavior.
(16:01):
Emotional brain's gonna react.
So yes, we
Yeah.
in the less
Practice.
a, a great example by the way, is.
Just when you're in the 12 items orless checkout line and you're running
late and there's somebody two in frontof you and they have 14 items, you
know, 'cause you counted, that's whereyou can stop and practice, right?
Yeah.
These are all lessons.
awesome opportunities in life to
(16:22):
Yeah, yeah.
So much.
managing those emotional responses.
So that you can step in moreskillfully and again, as as,
as a kind of math brain guy.
What I've also learned is thatwhen we're in that last 8%
moment and we get triggered.
We move toward our avoid or make amess behaviors, we also lose working
memory, means we can't think as clearly.
(16:45):
Mm-hmm.
as many options.
We don't have access to long-termmemory, so we're actually not as smart.
So it
Mm-hmm.
you know, EQ or iq.
and iq.
If
Mm-hmm.
moment you can manage your responses,you can actually step in, you can
listen better, you can be moreempathetic, but you could also.
Push through the discomfort to getpast that avoidance and, and step in.
(17:08):
So it's, it's about using the bestof your IQ in a last 8% moment by
Mm.
emotional responses.
Yeah, at the end of the day is practice.
Practice makes perfect, but
Yeah.
the more you practice this stuffthe easier and better it gets.
And, and being in that situation.
With that calmness, it changes everything.
(17:30):
Like you mentioned, you'recoming up with responses better.
You can have a communication.
You, you, you know what I mean?
When you're reacting that the anger'sso strong that even with the stuff that
you're saying is, is usually garbage.
You're not making any sense.
But when you have the calmest mind,that's why we work with our students.
We work on the calmness of mind.
We want to create that.
(17:51):
Calmness internally.
'cause from that calmness,that creative nature starts
evolving into this, , experience.
So it was very important andI really appreciate of you,
of what you're doing, right?
Because this organization thatyou have created, and then on top
of that, doing these podcasts,
Mm-hmm.
they're so important.
(18:12):
Having these kind of discussions on shows.
And their communities or networks, you'regetting that message out because subtype
is right under our nose and we don'trealize that it might be holding us back.
And the more people like you areout there sharing this is the
more awareness is coming intopeople's lives and, and families.
(18:33):
I talk about families inentrepreneurship world, but that's
a completely interconnected, youknow, everything's interconnected,
and Chad,
So.
I really appreciate the work you're doing.
You're doing the hard work.
You're the one creating the podcast.
I just get to kind of
Yeah.
and, and,
Thanks.
So you're, you're, you'redoing the hard work.
The other,
Thanks.
other thing I, I thought thatwould be interesting to your
listeners, 'cause I know a lot
Yeah.
lead teams and are,are wanting to build a,
(18:54):
Yeah.
high performing culture is, is some ofour more recent research around culture.
And, and again, we did a, a study on72,000 people, kind of combine it with
some of Sarah Sewell's work at Stanford.
Sorry, Stanford and we discoveredthat there's two key pillars
to a high performing culture.
One is connection.
That's psychological safety.
(19:15):
People feel cared about, theyfeel valued, and that is critical.
And when people do culture and valuestype work, they tend to focus on that.
But what they often miss is thesecond key pillar, which is courage.
The ability to do difficult things to stepinto these last 8% moments skillfully.
And we took those two pillarsand created a culture map.
(19:37):
I just wanted to talk about,you know, a couple of the
quadrants on the culture map.
'cause I think it'll resonatefor, for, for your listeners.
One is if you think of a culture that'shigh in courage, but low in connection,
that's a transactional culture.
Where results matter over relationships.
When something happens,people are making a mess.
They're blaming toxic people areallowed to, you know, allowed to
(20:00):
stay because they get results.
It, it's high anxiety and high burnout.
It can achieve results overthe short term, but it's not
Mm-hmm.
the long term.
So that's your transactional culture.
That's, you know, kind ofhigh courage, low connection.
Then there's a culture that'sconnection, but low courage.
a family culture.
(20:21):
That's a nice culture.
But people are unwilling orunable to do hard things.
It does
Mm-hmm.
be more of an avoidance culture.
'cause I. You don't wanna upset people,you don't want people not to like you.
There's less accountability, a slowerdecision making 'cause everybody
has to, you know, be happy andthere's nothing wrong with consensus
decision making, but taken too far.
It really slows things down.
(20:42):
And we actually have an assessmentwhere we can assess, you know, where
a team is on, on this culture map.
And a lot of our clients are in afamily culture, and there's a lot of
good things about a family culture.
Because there's high trust.
There's high care, it's notenough to be high performing.
and you know, we'd like to say,well, you're not actually a family.
You can't fire your lowest performing kid.
I. Right.
(21:04):
so, you know, the aspiration, you know,where we're helping our, our clients get
to is a culture that's high in courageand connection, which is characterized by
high care and high accountability whereit's both results and relationships.
'cause people
Mm-hmm.
well, if we have to focus onaccountability and performance
conversations, that's gonnaderail care and connection.
(21:26):
But it doesn't have to.
It can be done together.
Very good.
Holistic.
it's also a highly innovative environmentbecause people are willing to take risks.
It's okay to make a mistake.
Mm-hmm.
by the way, people arechallenging each other's.
It's a feedback richenvironment where people are
Mm-hmm.
other's ideas.
Good.
we're, what we're doing is, you know, mostof our clients are either in transactional
(21:47):
or family, and we're helping them move toa high care and high connection culture
Good.
that we call last, thatwe call last 8% culture.
Great.
I love that last 8%.
It's a big idea.
I never heard anybody look at that lastportion because that is where honestly,
(22:10):
a relationship can be built or destroyed.
Because everything is relationshipbased, like businesses are run, on
relationship, toxic environment,that's not a human environment.
That's really pre 2019.
It's like we're at adifferent level right now.
Top performers are operating withthe mind, body, and soul , holistic
(22:34):
type of experience they're creatingfor themselves and empowering others.
That's the future of leaders,
you, work with a Olympic athletes, topexecutives, high performers, what's
that one thing that you find that isvery common when it comes to mindset
or habits that they could improve on
(22:57):
so with the, I mean, what peopleneed to approve on, and everybody's
a little bit different, right?
Some are avoiders,
Yeah
you know, what I would say is, is, iswhat's common to the people who are making
those improvements is, is a willingnessto learn, to be self-aware, to accept
feedback to, you know, because we can'tget better if we don't have the awareness
of, you know, where our blind spotsare of, of what some of what you talked
(23:19):
coachability.
Our past traumas, coachability,willingness to look at
Hmm.
and willingness to change.
Self-aware.
Mm-hmm.
You know, a not a fixed mindset, right.
You know,
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You, you've gotta have a, you know, a,a a mindset where you're open to change.
Yeah.
and, and that's, and, and, you know.
What we're then really working with peopleon is, okay, once they've recognized
(23:41):
some of their patterns that are having animpact on, you know, how they're showing
up in their last 8% moments is to learnsome tools and skills to be better and
Mm.
be coached on that.
But they, I, I'm oftenasked to coach people.
My number one question is,do they wanna be coached?
Yes.
And you
A very important question.
to be coached.
(24:02):
know, they
Yeah.
about anything, you know, and
Yeah.
That's, that's the critical pieceis are they really open to feedback?
Are they really open to looking atthemselves and saying, yeah, you know, I'm
sometimes not at my best in these moments.
I, I could do betterand I want to do better.
That's the key for us.
Mm-hmm.
If
Wonderful.
for Carol direct's work fixed
Yeah, the,
(24:23):
that's the
yeah.
Having an open mind, is very important.
So wonderful.
It was great having youon the show, my friend.
I appreciate your presence and whatyou were sharing and what you're
doing for people, kudos to you.
Keep going.
Definitely keep in touch.
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