August 19, 2024 • 28 mins
Over our years, we've collected quite the stories of A&S students at the University of Colorado Boulder living out the alchemy of ANDing. Their experiences perpetually nudge what we suppose our students can experience—opportunities that reach for the boundaries of the profound and even the obscure. Our guest today, Ava Altenbern (art history, biochemistry '24), puts the unexpected on full display. From an internship at a Colorado morgue to her bubbly optimism while navigating death to searching for her art style to an honors thesis on riboswitches, she delves into the manner these interests wove together and shaped how she views a world she is thrilled to step into.
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More about Ava's current work with NIAID and the Ivanovic Lab.
Original music composed by Nelson Walker.
Recorded at Interplay Recording and Multimedia.
Written and produced by Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
The Ampersand is a production of the College of Arts and Sciences at the University of Colorado Boulder.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[TYPING]
(00:03):
ERIKA RANDALL (00:03):
A&S.
[DINGING]
[CLICKING]
I imagined Ava Altenberndoing art her whole life.
Her pastel butterfly jewelry,mutinous tattoo, Black hair,
Wednesday Adams whiteskin, and green eyes
point to art major,not necessarily
her double major in arthistory and biochemistry.
(00:26):
She first picked up a paintbrushher final semester at CU Boulder
and proceeded to createincredibly real self portraiture
that meshed with the aestheticimagination of graphic novels.
Ava is an infinite number ofunexpected contradictions packed
into an unassuming firecracker.
(00:54):
I can't imagine thesparkly green-eyed Ava
working as an autopsytechnician intern in the morgue.
On today's episode,Ava describes
wielding the bladesaws and Dura-Stripers
needed to evisceratea brain and the way
these experiencesfocus her many passions
into her path towardforensic pathology.
As an alum who spent muchof her college experience
during the pandemicyears, Ava talks about her
(01:16):
struggles to find her style asan artist, her path in medicine,
and the moments she realizesshe is ending too much.
Ava has done more of theunimaginable in her time
on this Earth thanmany of us can fathom.
But this bundleof contradictions
is just getting started.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(01:36):
On The Ampersand, we callthis bringing together
of the impossible thealchemy of anding.
Together, we'll hear stories ofhumans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunctionjunction kind of way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
a way to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally
(01:57):
let the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks, "Whatis it you plan to do with
your one wild andprecious life?"
I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating, and collaborating,
it reminds me toreplace a singular
idea of what I think I shouldbecome with a full sensory verb
about experiencing.
(02:18):
I'm Erika Randall.
And this is Ava Altenbernon The Ampersand.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
AVA ALTENBERN (02:33):
At this point.
I'm so young I don't thinkI've mastered anything.
I think it's going totake me a long time
to master anything because I'minterested in so many things.
But also it's--
I used to thinkof it as a crutch.
But after college, I'mlike, I got all this stuff
in my back pocketthat I can pull out.
It's very much the Gemini in me.
ERIKA RANDALL (02:50):
You're a Gemini.
AVA ALTENBERN (02:51):
I am.
I'm a really true Gemini toobecause I was born on June 2
at 2:00 PM.
And I'm technically a twin.
And my twin passedaway in childbirth.
But the story ofthe Gemini Twins
is that one survivedand one died.
And so it's--
ERIKA RANDALL (03:09):
But you are--
AVA ALTENBERN (03:10):
--really intense.
ERIKA RANDALL: --really a Gemini? (03:11):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (03:12):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:13):
And do you think that it was in those moments
where you absorbed yourdark, beautiful humor?
AVA ALTENBERN (03:19):
Well, that's the thing is, I have always
been interested in death.
But I was around it--
ERIKA RANDALL (03:24):
You were around it--
AVA ALTENBERN (03:25):
--when I was--
ERIKA RANDALL: --when you were born. (03:26):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (03:27):
Yeah.
So it's just alwaysbeen a thing.
Death is obviously a veryhard thing for everyone.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:34):
And did biochem, art, art history,
working in the morgue--
were all of those things--
are they connected to this--
AVA ALTENBERN (03:43):
Yeah.
No-- I mean--
ERIKA RANDALL (03:45):
--relationship?
Yeah, talk to me about that.
AVA ALTENBERN (03:48):
So when I was 12 or 13,
my mom and I were reallyobsessed with Dateline
and watching crime showsand stuff like that.
And so from that point on, Iwas always really interested
in getting intoforensic pathology,
being either an autopsy techor the doctor in the room.
(04:09):
And so--
ERIKA RANDALL: --which I've always (04:09):
undefined
seen you as a CSI character.
Do you see yourself?
AVA ALTENBERN (04:13):
I mean, not specifically CSI.
I never watched CSI.
Criminal Minds.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:18):
Criminal Minds.
Penelope.
AVA ALTENBERN (04:20):
I love Aaron Hotchner, actually, deeply.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:23):
Like, deeply?
AVA ALTENBERN (04:25):
I love that man.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:26):
Oh my god.
I loved Criminal Mindsuntil I had a kid,
and then I couldn'twatch anymore.
It got really dark for me.
AVA ALTENBERN (04:31):
Well, it was actually interesting.
After I worked at themorgue, it got harder for me
to watch true crime stuff.
I don't watch a lotof true crime anymore.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:40):
After the morgue?
AVA ALTENBERN (04:41):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:42):
So there's before the morgue and after the morgue.
AVA ALTENBERN (04:45):
I think it's a different understanding that I
have of what actually happens.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:49):
What death looks like.
AVA ALTENBERN (04:51):
Yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:51):
And how it lands on a body.
AVA ALTENBERN (04:53):
Yes.
Before I went to the morgue,I worked as an autopsy intern.
And it was only eight months.
And it was also ata point in my life--
it was my junior year, Ithink, or the first semester
of my junior year.
I didn't really knowwhy I came to see CU.
I was very-- not super lost.
(05:15):
But I just probably could havehad the same experience at ASU--
I'm originally from Arizona--and not spent a ton out of state
money--
ERIKA RANDALL (05:22):
Out of state is hard.
AVA ALTENBERN (05:24):
--and not been away from--
ERIKA RANDALL (05:25):
And with a mom saying,
when are you goingto choose your major?
Why do you have a double major?
Why did you change your major?
AVA ALTENBERN (05:30):
But she was very supportive and stuff.
But she was very much like,why are you doing art history?
I don't get it.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:37):
And you weren't sure your biochem, art history
all at the same time--
and then in comes a tattoophotographer of dead bodies
and says, I did an internship.
AVA ALTENBERN (05:47):
Yeah.
And I was like, Ididn't even know
this existed when I came here.
And it turns outthis internship is
one of the bestautopsy technician
internships in the country.
And the autopsy technicianwho headed this program really
came in.
And she changed theentire structure of it
(06:07):
to really be an educational,immersive experience
because actually all the autopsytechnicians there who worked
there was at one point anintern and did this program.
But when she didit, she was saying
how it wasn't really structured,organized educational program.
You didn't have-- therewas these modules.
(06:27):
The first module is basic morgueoperations, drawing blood,
filling out all theinformation, really
office stuff too,keeping everything clean.
And then module 2 iscranial evisceration.
ERIKA RANDALL (06:40):
And that's where you excel?
AVA ALTENBERN (06:42):
Yeah.
So I learned how to remove abrain in under seven minutes.
So that's a thing I can do.
ERIKA RANDALL (06:50):
Does that go on special skills
or top of your resume?
AVA ALTENBERN (06:54):
I just put that I generally did it
because people have a lotof different reactions.
ERIKA RANDALL (06:59):
So my reaction when I first met you and heard
this was like, I needto know you because you
had such a light about you.
It's like a space of pridethat you could do this.
And that's module 2.
AVA ALTENBERN (07:14):
And so then you just go through the body.
And you have to be proficientin what you're doing
and correctly remove whateverorgan that you're focusing on.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:24):
And do you have a supervisor?
AVA ALTENBERN (07:26):
Yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:27):
OK, how many supervisors are in there?
AVA ALTENBERN (07:29):
I'm trying to remember.
They have five or sixdifferent autopsy technicians.
And each month, you rotate.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:35):
So you're learning different people's
skills.
AVA ALTENBERN (07:38):
Yeah, because everyone does it differently.
Basically there's aright way to do it
but no right way to performit, if that makes sense.
It's a play.
You have your lines, butthere's different ways
you can perform it.
And so it's--
ERIKA RANDALL (07:53):
Was there a ritual about it?
This is a pretty sacred momentthat a body is being unearthed
or the secrets of its deathor its stories are being told.
Did you ever feel,or did anyone have
a ritualistic, creative,ritualistic space?
Or did you have your own, "I'mwith you human, thank you?"
(08:14):
Or did you have a thing thatfelt sacred in the space,
or did you keep it clinical?
AVA ALTENBERN (08:18):
I mean, it's pretty clinical.
But at the same time, I waskind of talking about before--
you have to createa lightness in it.
They have very dark humor.
It's funny because if you'renot used to it and you walk in
and people aremaking these jokes,
that can come off as verycrass and disrespectful.
But it's a very difficultsituation that you're in.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:38):
Day after day.
AVA ALTENBERN: You're just trying (08:39):
undefined
to humanize thisexperience and not
just keep it clinicalbecause then you just lose
all of why you're doing this.
But also, it's funny.
We would always playmusic in the morgue.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:50):
You'd have a soundtrack.
What was your bestworst soundtrack?
AVA ALTENBERN: Well, I mean, there (08:54):
undefined
was a lot of metalthat was happening.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:59):
Death metal in the morgue?
That makes sense.
That's a little on the nose.
AVA ALTENBERN (09:02):
Yeah.
But it would like,rotate through.
Sometimes people would playTaylor Swift and then--
ERIKA RANDALL (09:07):
T. Swift in an autopsy?
AVA ALTENBERN (09:09):
Yeah.
So it was always different.
We rotated through whowas choosing the playlist.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:14):
It depended on the technician.
AVA ALTENBERN (09:16):
Yeah, usually the autopsy technicians were always
choosing the playlist.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:19):
It wasn't based on the scenario
or the human or the story.
It was on the humanswho were alive.
AVA ALTENBERN (09:24):
--which I think, whatever comforts you
in that situation--but it really
created a nice lighterenvironment and more
relaxed becauseyou're learning how
to do all these eviscerationtechniques on a human person.
And you want to respecttheir body as much as you can
and not screw up.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:43):
Because sometimes you're
looking for evidencein the body.
Did that come up for youin that forensic space?
AVA ALTENBERN (09:48):
Yeah.
So the autopsy internsweren't allowed
to be involved in theevisceration portion of anything
where it was a homicideor any criminal case
just because weare babies in this,
which, totally understandable.
We were able to helpwith evidence collection,
(10:11):
just hold the bag while theyput the evidence in there.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:13):
And did that get you lit?
Because that waspointing towards one
of your original goals.
AVA ALTENBERN: Yeah, it really did (10:18):
undefined
make me understand, becausenormal autopsies can usually
happen in an hour.
They're very fast.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:26):
Whoa.
That's why the seven minutes toget the brain out of the skull
is such a good move.
AVA ALTENBERN (10:30):
And so it's like they're really
trying to teach you howto operate in this more
exciting-- andautopsy technicians
are such an integralpart of the morgue
and of the medicalexaminer's office.
They really don'tget enough credit
because they're notthe pathologists.
They're not the doctors whoare diagnosing and everything.
(10:52):
But they're the people who areusually removing all the organs,
doing all of the hardlifting work of it,
and doing all thecleaning, making
sure all the office isput together and prepared
for the doctors.
They really makeeverything go smoothly.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:07):
So this podcast is a shout out.
AVA ALTENBERN: Yes, unsung heroes (11:09):
undefined
of the morgue,autopsy technicians.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:14):
I call this [INAUDIBLE].
AVA ALTENBERN (11:15):
They are amazing.
And they do it all withthis grace and effortlessly.
The doctors willwalk in-- and not
to say the doctorsdon't do stuff.
But I think they alreadyget all the credit.
And that's what I want to do.
I want to be aforensic pathologist.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:34):
Did you feel that focus towards your not, I guess,
purpose--
or you were saying, Iwasn't sure why I came here.
Did this land you in the whyof here and the yes of next?
AVA ALTENBERN (11:48):
Yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:49):
It did?
AVA ALTENBERN (11:49):
100%.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:50):
Wow.
AVA ALTENBERN: Because, like I said, (11:50):
undefined
I was really in this position.
I had recently lostsome friends back home.
And I was really going throughjust a really tough period.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:00):
Lost like lost, lost?
AVA ALTENBERN (12:02):
Not lost, lost.
They're alive.
Because we're not really--
ERIKA RANDALL (12:05):
Because I don't know with--
I don't with you, Ava.
When you say lost,they could be gone.
AVA ALTENBERN (12:10):
No, they're here.
They're present.
But we're just notconnected anymore.
And I'd been going througha lot just at CU too.
And so at that point, we hadjust come out of the pandemic.
I wasn't doing as well asI wanted to in my classes.
I had a really hard timereadjusting from being on--
just getting adjustedto being online and then
(12:32):
being thrown back in person, Ithink that threw me for a loop.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:35):
And you didn't just go back in person.
You went and thendealt with bodies.
So from nobody to bodies.
That's a huge jump.
AVA ALTENBERN (12:43):
And especially towards the last of my eight
months at the morgue,we weren't dealing
with a lot of COVIDcases anymore.
But that was definitelysomething at the start of it.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:54):
When you were working in the morgue,
you were actuallyholding the bodies
of folks who died from COVID?
AVA ALTENBERN (12:58):
And so that was an in-your-face,
like the effects ofthis pandemic, just
both the emotionaland mental effects.
And then the physicalpeople have died from COVID.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:11):
But every time I hear you say draw blood,
because you're a visual artist,I see you drawing blood.
I just see it.
So had you discoveredat this moment
as you were really feelinginto this forensic pathology--
you were an arthistory double major.
And then you started takingintro classes in visual art.
(13:31):
And you had drawn-ish.
AVA ALTENBERN (13:33):
Yeah, the first time I ever
took an art classwas in junior high.
And that was the last time Ihad ever taken an art class--
ERIKA RANDALL (13:41):
In junior high?
AVA ALTENBERN (13:42):
Yeah, until CU, until my art history major.
But I learned very foundationalstuff in that art class.
And from there, I gotreally focused in just
learning technique andthe skill of drawing.
I did a lot of reallyhyper-realistic portraiture,
which is a little bitcontroversial now in the art
(14:03):
practice world becausea lot of people are.
It's so uninspired.
You're just copying aphoto, which I'm like, yeah,
I get that.
It takes some skill to do that.
And that's where Ireally struggled.
I couldn't create my own style.
That was really hard for me.
And we were talkingabout earlier,
that didn't really happen untilmy final art class in college,
ERIKA RANDALL: What was it that-- (14:24):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (14:25):
--which was last semester.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:26):
--got you into that--
was it that you took a riskon paper and said, there I am?
AVA ALTENBERN (14:32):
I've always been really wanting
to have a style that'ssimilar to comic book.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:37):
Yeah, that's what I feel when I look at your work.
But it's differentthan comic book
too because it hasthis hyper-realism
in a way that's thenjuxtaposed with another side.
AVA ALTENBERN (14:46):
--which if I ever wanted to do a comic book
or illustrate would be so hardbecause I would be so meticulous
about-- every detailwould take me years.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:54):
Forever.
You'd do one book.
AVA ALTENBERN (14:55):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:56):
You would do comic book.
AVA ALTENBERN (14:57):
Yeah, that's it.
And so I always wantedto have that style.
But I had never reallybeen challenged.
I never challenged myself.
And I didn't know thesteps to take that.
And I took just theintro to painting class
for art history majors becausethere's a non-majors class.
But our teacher, ourprofessor, was a grad student.
(15:20):
And it was her finalsemester as a grad student.
So our first day ofclass, I remember
I was 10 minuteslate to that class.
I'm never late to anything.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:29):
Were are you nervous?
AVA ALTENBERN (15:30):
I just slept through.
It was in the morning.
It was a five-hour class.
And I slept through my alarms.
And I was 10 minutes late.
And I walk in.
And the first thing shesays to me, she's like,
try to be on time.
And I'm like--
ERIKA RANDALL (15:41):
Great impression.
AVA ALTENBERN (15:42):
Yeah, wonderful.
But she actually hashundreds of thousands
of followers on Instagram--
ERIKA RANDALL: --because of her style. (15:48):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN: --because of her art. (15:49):
undefined
And I didn't know this beforeI signed up for this class.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:54):
Kind of internet famous.
AVA ALTENBERN (15:55):
And I was like, oh my god, she's my teacher.
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (15:58):
Did you like her style?
AVA ALTENBERN (16:00):
Yeah, I love her style.
It's very Gothic.
She does a lot of printand metal work now.
But, oh my gosh, it's beautiful.
She makes all these pendants.
And I actually foundher on Instagram
through one of myfriends from Arizona
because she repostedone of her pieces.
ERIKA RANDALL (16:19):
That's how you took the class?
Or you were in the classalready, and one of your friends
said, check this out?
You're going to dig it.
And you said, that's my teacher.
AVA ALTENBERN: That's my teacher. (16:26):
undefined
ERIKA RANDALL (16:28):
You have some good coincidence.
AVA ALTENBERN (16:31):
There's no such thing as a coincidence.
I think--
ERIKA RANDALL (16:34):
What do you call them,
those moments that are like--
AVA ALTENBERN (16:36):
[LAUGHS] I just was like, OK, that's great.
I don't really call themanything, just little panic
moments because I'm like--
ERIKA RANDALL (16:45):
You look around and feel like--
AVA ALTENBERN: --something's watching me (16:47):
undefined
or something'smoving all the parts.
I think everythinghappens for a reason.
I do think we haveagency of getting there.
But I think it all works out inthe end, hopefully, because--
ERIKA RANDALL (17:01):
Even when it--
AVA ALTENBERN (17:02):
--looks like it's not working out, it will.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:05):
So this teacher inspired
you to dig into your owness?
AVA ALTENBERN (17:08):
But I really wanted
to hone in on thisexperience that I
had during my junior year.
everything washappening at once.
I felt very lost.
I didn't know what Iwas doing at CU anymore.
I was having a very hard time.
I had lost a lot offriends back home.
And a lot was goingon with my family.
So it was like-- everythinghappened all at once.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:30):
I mean, it always is.
But there are times whereit really feels like it.
AVA ALTENBERN (17:33):
Oh my gosh.
I remember it was right when Icame because all this happened
over the summer.
And then I came toCU my junior year.
And we drove my carup from Arizona.
Within the first week of havingmy car, all this was happening.
I get a flat tire.
And I'm like, areyou kidding me?
ERIKA RANDALL (17:50):
No, I know.
The week of mywedding, my mom died.
And I got a flat tire.
And when the tire did the--
I was like, are you kidding me?
It's that one thing.
Everything is always happening.
And then there's the one thing.
AVA ALTENBERN (18:01):
I was like, this is--
and my dad had been inthe hospital briefly.
And I also lost a friend at CU.
So it felt like I wastotally on my own.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:11):
So you put all of that?
AVA ALTENBERN (18:12):
Yeah.
Well, and it was justthis emotion of--
I remember being veryangry during that time
and just pissed off at theworld and pissed off at myself.
And what I did to fix that, Ithrew myself into everything.
And I did my autopsy internship.
I got into MuayThai and kickboxing.
I was just trying everything.
(18:32):
I worked a lot, took a lotof classes that I normally
wouldn't have taken.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:37):
Were you overanding?
AVA ALTENBERN (18:38):
Yes, which is something I always tell people.
I was a studentambassador for the College
of Arts and Sciences.
And one of the-- at our lastmeeting, my boss was like,
give us one piece of advice.
And I was like, definitelydon't underestimate yourself
because you can do so muchmore than you think you can do.
I am an example of that.
(18:59):
But also don'toverestimate yourself
because you can way overdo it.
And finding that balanceis something that
took me until my senior year.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:08):
What was it that got you to understanding that?
Because I still need to know.
AVA ALTENBERN (19:12):
Well, I mean, I think
it was just me overdoing it.
I'd always pushed myself a lot.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:17):
Did you get sick?
Did you get sad?
Did you--
AVA ALTENBERN (19:18):
I got sick--
ERIKA RANDALL: --just hit a wall? (19:18):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (19:19):
--so much.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:20):
You got sick?
AVA ALTENBERN (19:21):
And my roommate got sick a lot too.
But it was constantly.
I'd get sick.
And then she'd get sickbecause she was living with me.
And then she'd getsick, and I'd get sick.
So I was constantly-- we wereconstantly ill in that house.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:31):
But it helped.
The everything to findwhat you wanted to do
helped until it didn'tuntil then it was too much.
AVA ALTENBERN (19:38):
And I finally started
going to therapy this year--
ERIKA RANDALL (19:42):
And slowed down.
AVA ALTENBERN (19:42):
--in January.
And I remember my first sessionwith my therapist, which,
oh my gosh, therapy is amazing.
People, do therapy.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:50):
Do therapy.
AVA ALTENBERN (19:51):
Even if you don't think you need therapy,
just do therapy.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:53):
Say yes to the internship.
Get the tattoo you want.
Go to the art-- what'sit called, the art store?
AVA ALTENBERN (19:59):
Art Parts.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:00):
Go to Art Parts and do therapy.
AVA ALTENBERN (20:01):
Do therapy.
Yeah, that is myadvice to people.
But I remember tellingmy therapist everything
that I had to do my lastsemester senior year.
And I was taking 20credits of classes.
I had two jobs on campus.
I wasn't in myinternship anymore.
But I had my honors thesis.
(20:22):
And I was stilldoing lab research,
which takes a lot of time.
It was at least 12 to 20hours per week in the lab.
And then I had to writethis thesis and defend it.
And on top of that, I was like,why not study for the MCAT?
Why not do that?
ERIKA RANDALL (20:36):
Why not do that?
So you--
AVA ALTENBERN (20:37):
I can--
ERIKA RANDALL (20:37):
--did that?
AVA ALTENBERN (20:37):
--do that.
And I didn't.
I did not study.
ERIKA RANDALL: That's the thing-- (20:40):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (20:42):
I took it, but I didn't study for it.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:45):
But you are still launching
into this whole new space.
You're moving to DC.
Tell me what you're going to do.
AVA ALTENBERN (20:51):
So I actually got--
it was funny because Ihad done all this stuff.
And then I graduated.
And I realized I didn't planfor what I was going to do next.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:59):
You just were doing all this stuff.
AVA ALTENBERN (21:00):
I was doing everything
because my original planwas, I was going to apply
for med school this summer.
And I didn't study for the MCAT.
I think I did pretty OK,pretty well for not studying
but definitelyneed to retake it.
And so I had to give myselfa little bit of grace, which
was very hard for me to do.
And I changed my entire plan.
I was like, I don't knowwhat I'm going to do.
(21:22):
And one of thepeople from my lab
actually was going to theNational Institute of Health
to do this post-baccalaureateprogram that they have.
And it's an amazing program.
You get paid dirt.
But, I mean, you're doingresearch right out of college,
what do you expect?
And so they have--
it's the NationalInstitute of Health.
I like to describe it aslike a college campus.
(21:44):
But it's just research labs.
There's postdocs, juststaff scientists, the PIs,
or the principalinvestigators, and a bunch
of postdocs running around.
Everyone--
ERIKA RANDALL (21:55):
Do you know what you're
going to be on, what labyou're going to be in?
AVA ALTENBERN (21:58):
And so I'm in this virology lab that
are looking at RNA viruses.
And so it's still in the RNA.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:03):
It still connects.
AVA ALTENBERN (22:04):
And they are specifically looking
at influenza and reovirus.
And I think it's avery flexible lab.
But I think I'm probably goingto be on the reovirus project
because they want to figureout the mRNA transcription
mechanisms.
And that was my whole shtick.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:19):
That was your stick.
So you're in it.
So it doesn't feeloverwhelming to you
even though it's super new.
And it's a big thing.
And the government is sniffinginto all of your business.
AVA ALTENBERN (22:27):
My info.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:28):
Your info.
But you feel ready.
You feel prepped for this.
AVA ALTENBERN (22:31):
And so I found out about this
through the otherperson in my lab.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:36):
Do you think your art side also
helped you land this next?
AVA ALTENBERN (22:41):
I think it definitely
makes a point of interest.
There's a plus that evenon med school applications,
med schools are alsolooking for people who and.
Now, it's not just the sciences.
You have to be someonewho also has something
else in their wheelhouse.
And so I think it'sa thing that's--
(23:01):
it starts a lotof conversations--
ERIKA RANDALL (23:03):
Well--
AVA ALTENBERN (23:03):
--definitely.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:03):
--you have a lot of conversations to start.
I'm so grateful for this one.
I think it's time forthe quick and dirty.
I think we got to get in on it.
Are you ready?
AVA ALTENBERN (23:11):
Sure.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:11):
Do you know what the quick and dirty is?
AVA ALTENBERN (23:12):
No, I do not.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:13):
OK, so the quick and dirty
is when I ask you questions andyou have to answer them quick.
But it doesn't have to be dirty.
All right, so I wantto hear more about--
because you already said it.
But I need to know more--
your favorite or the most wrongmusic and autopsy combinations.
AVA ALTENBERN (23:31):
Oh God.
I think the Taylor Swiftone was a little bit weird.
You're usually used towalking in and being
a lot of rock and metal.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:43):
Which album do you remember?
AVA ALTENBERN (23:44):
I don't know.
I think it was one ofher earlier ones too.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:47):
Good.
That's actually weirder.
AVA ALTENBERN (23:48):
Yeah, it was like her debut or something.
And I like Taylor Swift.
I'm going to her concert.
I'm so excited.
Well, I have a week of concerts.
I'm doing Fall Out Boyand Bring Me the Horizon
and then Paramore andthen Taylor Swift.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:01):
OK, so that would have
been my next quick and dirtyis your favorite bands.
AVA ALTENBERN (24:06):
Fall Out Boy has always been my lifelong love.
But also my favorite artistof all time is Billy Joel.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:12):
Oh my god.
[LAUGHS]
AVA ALTENBERN (24:15):
I went to his concert when I was 18.
But I love Billy Joel's so much.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:20):
Stop.
The Piano Man?
AVA ALTENBERN (24:22):
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (24:23):
Do you have a favorite Billy Joel that has
"and" in it?
I need a Billy Joel "and" song.
Can you think of one or a lyric?
AVA ALTENBERN (24:29):
I don't know.
But my favoriteBilly Joel song is--
what is it called now?
It's literally my favorite.
And I can't--
ERIKA RANDALL (24:37):
This is what happens on the quick and dirty.
AVA ALTENBERN (24:38):
I think I know the first line of it.
"These are notthe best of times,
but they're the onlytimes I've ever known."
ERIKA RANDALL (24:43):
I know that song.
That sounds exactly like--
AVA ALTENBERN (24:46):
"Summer Highland Falls."
ERIKA RANDALL (24:48):
Thank you.
AVA ALTENBERN (24:48):
"Summer Highland Falls."
ERIKA RANDALL (24:50):
"Summer Highland Falls."
AVA ALTENBERN (24:52):
I also love "Scenes from an Italian
Restaurant"--
ERIKA RANDALL (24:54):
Oh my god.
I love "Scenes from anItalian Restaurant."
AVA ALTENBERN (24:55):
--just because my mom told me
once that her and my dad--before they were married,
they used to dance inthe kitchen to that song.
And it's just such--
I love that song.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:05):
Kitchen dancing is the best.
OK, what is youranding accessory
that you would wear to spiceup your PPE medical white coat
reality?
What would you roll upin that still says "Ava?"
AVA ALTENBERN (25:17):
I have a bunch of earrings.
I have a bunch of piercings.
And I'm not wearingall of them right now.
I have one special--
ERIKA RANDALL (25:23):
You have a pink safety--
AVA ALTENBERN (25:26):
It's like--
ERIKA RANDALL: Like a star dangle? (25:27):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (25:29):
Yeah, it's like a dangle.
But it has a butterfly on it.
And then there's amushroom on the side.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:34):
And then a sweet butterfly on your neck.
AVA ALTENBERN (25:35):
I have a lot of jewelry.
I love jewelry.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:37):
Sparkly jewelry.
OK, food combination ofyour guilty pleasures?
AVA ALTENBERN (25:42):
Oh God.
When I was younger, I usedto do this really gross thing
that I sometimes still do.
My best friend frommy childhood and I
used to call itgarbage noodles, just
because they looked likethey came out of the garbage.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:56):
What's in garbage noodles?
AVA ALTENBERN (25:57):
It's just literally like butter noodles
with an excess amount ofsalt and pepper and just
random spices.
That's it.
And you just make it grossbecause it looks disgusting.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:06):
It looks like brains.
AVA ALTENBERN (26:07):
When we were younger, and we didn't know--
we were like eightand didn't know how
to cook something on the stove.
We put noodles ina bowl of water
and put it in the microwave--
ERIKA RANDALL (26:16):
Garbage noodles.
AVA ALTENBERN: --which did not work. (26:17):
undefined
But we still ate it.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:19):
You still ate it.
So you would stilleat that today?
AVA ALTENBERN (26:20):
Yeah, I used to do that with ramen
because I'm vegetarian.
So I don't usuallyuse the packets
unless it's the vegetarian one.
And so I would drain out-- allof my roommates were horrified.
I would drain outall of the water
and just make pastawith the ramen noodles
because it was quick andeasy and I was in college.
So--
ERIKA RANDALL (26:39):
I love it.
AVA ALTENBERN (26:39):
--it's gross.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:40):
Quick and dirty garbage noodles.
OK, you have a blessing thatyou are going to send folks off
with, a thing that you're goingto say that's going to go,
and may you always, da, da, da.
What would yours be?
AVA ALTENBERN (26:53):
I'm stealing it from Ted Lasso, which
I think everyone should watch.
Ted Lasso, number one.
But be curious andnot judgmental.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:00):
Can you put an and in there at the beginning?
AVA ALTENBERN (27:05):
And be curious and not judgmental?
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (27:11):
Now say it like you mean it.
AVA ALTENBERN (27:12):
And be curious and not judgmental.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
That was Ava Altenbernon The Ampersand.
Hey, med schools, you'dbe lucky to have her.
Learn more about Avain our show notes.
The Ampersand is aproduction of the College
of Arts and Sciences at theUniversity of Colorado, Boulder.
(27:33):
It is written and producedby me, Erika Randall
and Tim Grassley.
If there are peopleyou'd like us
to interview on TheAmpersand, do please email
us at asinfo@colorado.edu.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker,
and the episodes are recorded atInterplay Recording in Boulder,
Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall.
(27:54):
And this is The Ampersand.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[TYPING]
(00:03):
ERIKA RANDALL (00:03):
A&S.
[DINGING]
[CLICKING]
I imagined Ava Altenberndoing art her whole life.
Her pastel butterfly jewelry,mutinous tattoo, Black hair,
Wednesday Adams whiteskin, and green eyes
point to art major,not necessarily
her double major in arthistory and biochemistry.
(00:26):
She first picked up a paintbrushher final semester at CU Boulder
and proceeded to createincredibly real self portraiture
that meshed with the aestheticimagination of graphic novels.
Ava is an infinite number ofunexpected contradictions packed
into an unassuming firecracker.
(00:54):
I can't imagine thesparkly green-eyed Ava
working as an autopsytechnician intern in the morgue.
On today's episode,Ava describes
wielding the bladesaws and Dura-Stripers
needed to evisceratea brain and the way
these experiencesfocus her many passions
into her path towardforensic pathology.
As an alum who spent muchof her college experience
during the pandemicyears, Ava talks about her
(01:16):
struggles to find her style asan artist, her path in medicine,
and the moments she realizesshe is ending too much.
Ava has done more of theunimaginable in her time
on this Earth thanmany of us can fathom.
But this bundleof contradictions
is just getting started.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(01:36):
On The Ampersand, we callthis bringing together
of the impossible thealchemy of anding.
Together, we'll hear stories ofhumans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunctionjunction kind of way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
a way to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally
(01:57):
let the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks, "Whatis it you plan to do with
your one wild andprecious life?"
I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating, and collaborating,
it reminds me toreplace a singular
idea of what I think I shouldbecome with a full sensory verb
about experiencing.
(02:18):
I'm Erika Randall.
And this is Ava Altenbernon The Ampersand.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
AVA ALTENBERN (02:33):
At this point.
I'm so young I don't thinkI've mastered anything.
I think it's going totake me a long time
to master anything because I'minterested in so many things.
But also it's--
I used to thinkof it as a crutch.
But after college, I'mlike, I got all this stuff
in my back pocketthat I can pull out.
It's very much the Gemini in me.
ERIKA RANDALL (02:50):
You're a Gemini.
AVA ALTENBERN (02:51):
I am.
I'm a really true Gemini toobecause I was born on June 2
at 2:00 PM.
And I'm technically a twin.
And my twin passedaway in childbirth.
But the story ofthe Gemini Twins
is that one survivedand one died.
And so it's--
ERIKA RANDALL (03:09):
But you are--
AVA ALTENBERN (03:10):
--really intense.
ERIKA RANDALL: --really a Gemini? (03:11):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (03:12):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:13):
And do you think that it was in those moments
where you absorbed yourdark, beautiful humor?
AVA ALTENBERN (03:19):
Well, that's the thing is, I have always
been interested in death.
But I was around it--
ERIKA RANDALL (03:24):
You were around it--
AVA ALTENBERN (03:25):
--when I was--
ERIKA RANDALL: --when you were born. (03:26):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (03:27):
Yeah.
So it's just alwaysbeen a thing.
Death is obviously a veryhard thing for everyone.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:34):
And did biochem, art, art history,
working in the morgue--
were all of those things--
are they connected to this--
AVA ALTENBERN (03:43):
Yeah.
No-- I mean--
ERIKA RANDALL (03:45):
--relationship?
Yeah, talk to me about that.
AVA ALTENBERN (03:48):
So when I was 12 or 13,
my mom and I were reallyobsessed with Dateline
and watching crime showsand stuff like that.
And so from that point on, Iwas always really interested
in getting intoforensic pathology,
being either an autopsy techor the doctor in the room.
(04:09):
And so--
ERIKA RANDALL: --which I've always (04:09):
undefined
seen you as a CSI character.
Do you see yourself?
AVA ALTENBERN (04:13):
I mean, not specifically CSI.
I never watched CSI.
Criminal Minds.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:18):
Criminal Minds.
Penelope.
AVA ALTENBERN (04:20):
I love Aaron Hotchner, actually, deeply.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:23):
Like, deeply?
AVA ALTENBERN (04:25):
I love that man.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:26):
Oh my god.
I loved Criminal Mindsuntil I had a kid,
and then I couldn'twatch anymore.
It got really dark for me.
AVA ALTENBERN (04:31):
Well, it was actually interesting.
After I worked at themorgue, it got harder for me
to watch true crime stuff.
I don't watch a lotof true crime anymore.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:40):
After the morgue?
AVA ALTENBERN (04:41):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:42):
So there's before the morgue and after the morgue.
AVA ALTENBERN (04:45):
I think it's a different understanding that I
have of what actually happens.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:49):
What death looks like.
AVA ALTENBERN (04:51):
Yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:51):
And how it lands on a body.
AVA ALTENBERN (04:53):
Yes.
Before I went to the morgue,I worked as an autopsy intern.
And it was only eight months.
And it was also ata point in my life--
it was my junior year, Ithink, or the first semester
of my junior year.
I didn't really knowwhy I came to see CU.
I was very-- not super lost.
(05:15):
But I just probably could havehad the same experience at ASU--
I'm originally from Arizona--and not spent a ton out of state
money--
ERIKA RANDALL (05:22):
Out of state is hard.
AVA ALTENBERN (05:24):
--and not been away from--
ERIKA RANDALL (05:25):
And with a mom saying,
when are you goingto choose your major?
Why do you have a double major?
Why did you change your major?
AVA ALTENBERN (05:30):
But she was very supportive and stuff.
But she was very much like,why are you doing art history?
I don't get it.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:37):
And you weren't sure your biochem, art history
all at the same time--
and then in comes a tattoophotographer of dead bodies
and says, I did an internship.
AVA ALTENBERN (05:47):
Yeah.
And I was like, Ididn't even know
this existed when I came here.
And it turns outthis internship is
one of the bestautopsy technician
internships in the country.
And the autopsy technicianwho headed this program really
came in.
And she changed theentire structure of it
(06:07):
to really be an educational,immersive experience
because actually all the autopsytechnicians there who worked
there was at one point anintern and did this program.
But when she didit, she was saying
how it wasn't really structured,organized educational program.
You didn't have-- therewas these modules.
(06:27):
The first module is basic morgueoperations, drawing blood,
filling out all theinformation, really
office stuff too,keeping everything clean.
And then module 2 iscranial evisceration.
ERIKA RANDALL (06:40):
And that's where you excel?
AVA ALTENBERN (06:42):
Yeah.
So I learned how to remove abrain in under seven minutes.
So that's a thing I can do.
ERIKA RANDALL (06:50):
Does that go on special skills
or top of your resume?
AVA ALTENBERN (06:54):
I just put that I generally did it
because people have a lotof different reactions.
ERIKA RANDALL (06:59):
So my reaction when I first met you and heard
this was like, I needto know you because you
had such a light about you.
It's like a space of pridethat you could do this.
And that's module 2.
AVA ALTENBERN (07:14):
And so then you just go through the body.
And you have to be proficientin what you're doing
and correctly remove whateverorgan that you're focusing on.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:24):
And do you have a supervisor?
AVA ALTENBERN (07:26):
Yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:27):
OK, how many supervisors are in there?
AVA ALTENBERN (07:29):
I'm trying to remember.
They have five or sixdifferent autopsy technicians.
And each month, you rotate.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:35):
So you're learning different people's
skills.
AVA ALTENBERN (07:38):
Yeah, because everyone does it differently.
Basically there's aright way to do it
but no right way to performit, if that makes sense.
It's a play.
You have your lines, butthere's different ways
you can perform it.
And so it's--
ERIKA RANDALL (07:53):
Was there a ritual about it?
This is a pretty sacred momentthat a body is being unearthed
or the secrets of its deathor its stories are being told.
Did you ever feel,or did anyone have
a ritualistic, creative,ritualistic space?
Or did you have your own, "I'mwith you human, thank you?"
(08:14):
Or did you have a thing thatfelt sacred in the space,
or did you keep it clinical?
AVA ALTENBERN (08:18):
I mean, it's pretty clinical.
But at the same time, I waskind of talking about before--
you have to createa lightness in it.
They have very dark humor.
It's funny because if you'renot used to it and you walk in
and people aremaking these jokes,
that can come off as verycrass and disrespectful.
But it's a very difficultsituation that you're in.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:38):
Day after day.
AVA ALTENBERN: You're just trying (08:39):
undefined
to humanize thisexperience and not
just keep it clinicalbecause then you just lose
all of why you're doing this.
But also, it's funny.
We would always playmusic in the morgue.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:50):
You'd have a soundtrack.
What was your bestworst soundtrack?
AVA ALTENBERN: Well, I mean, there (08:54):
undefined
was a lot of metalthat was happening.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:59):
Death metal in the morgue?
That makes sense.
That's a little on the nose.
AVA ALTENBERN (09:02):
Yeah.
But it would like,rotate through.
Sometimes people would playTaylor Swift and then--
ERIKA RANDALL (09:07):
T. Swift in an autopsy?
AVA ALTENBERN (09:09):
Yeah.
So it was always different.
We rotated through whowas choosing the playlist.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:14):
It depended on the technician.
AVA ALTENBERN (09:16):
Yeah, usually the autopsy technicians were always
choosing the playlist.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:19):
It wasn't based on the scenario
or the human or the story.
It was on the humanswho were alive.
AVA ALTENBERN (09:24):
--which I think, whatever comforts you
in that situation--but it really
created a nice lighterenvironment and more
relaxed becauseyou're learning how
to do all these eviscerationtechniques on a human person.
And you want to respecttheir body as much as you can
and not screw up.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:43):
Because sometimes you're
looking for evidencein the body.
Did that come up for youin that forensic space?
AVA ALTENBERN (09:48):
Yeah.
So the autopsy internsweren't allowed
to be involved in theevisceration portion of anything
where it was a homicideor any criminal case
just because weare babies in this,
which, totally understandable.
We were able to helpwith evidence collection,
(10:11):
just hold the bag while theyput the evidence in there.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:13):
And did that get you lit?
Because that waspointing towards one
of your original goals.
AVA ALTENBERN: Yeah, it really did (10:18):
undefined
make me understand, becausenormal autopsies can usually
happen in an hour.
They're very fast.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:26):
Whoa.
That's why the seven minutes toget the brain out of the skull
is such a good move.
AVA ALTENBERN (10:30):
And so it's like they're really
trying to teach you howto operate in this more
exciting-- andautopsy technicians
are such an integralpart of the morgue
and of the medicalexaminer's office.
They really don'tget enough credit
because they're notthe pathologists.
They're not the doctors whoare diagnosing and everything.
(10:52):
But they're the people who areusually removing all the organs,
doing all of the hardlifting work of it,
and doing all thecleaning, making
sure all the office isput together and prepared
for the doctors.
They really makeeverything go smoothly.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:07):
So this podcast is a shout out.
AVA ALTENBERN: Yes, unsung heroes (11:09):
undefined
of the morgue,autopsy technicians.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:14):
I call this [INAUDIBLE].
AVA ALTENBERN (11:15):
They are amazing.
And they do it all withthis grace and effortlessly.
The doctors willwalk in-- and not
to say the doctorsdon't do stuff.
But I think they alreadyget all the credit.
And that's what I want to do.
I want to be aforensic pathologist.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:34):
Did you feel that focus towards your not, I guess,
purpose--
or you were saying, Iwasn't sure why I came here.
Did this land you in the whyof here and the yes of next?
AVA ALTENBERN (11:48):
Yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:49):
It did?
AVA ALTENBERN (11:49):
100%.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:50):
Wow.
AVA ALTENBERN: Because, like I said, (11:50):
undefined
I was really in this position.
I had recently lostsome friends back home.
And I was really going throughjust a really tough period.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:00):
Lost like lost, lost?
AVA ALTENBERN (12:02):
Not lost, lost.
They're alive.
Because we're not really--
ERIKA RANDALL (12:05):
Because I don't know with--
I don't with you, Ava.
When you say lost,they could be gone.
AVA ALTENBERN (12:10):
No, they're here.
They're present.
But we're just notconnected anymore.
And I'd been going througha lot just at CU too.
And so at that point, we hadjust come out of the pandemic.
I wasn't doing as well asI wanted to in my classes.
I had a really hard timereadjusting from being on--
just getting adjustedto being online and then
(12:32):
being thrown back in person, Ithink that threw me for a loop.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:35):
And you didn't just go back in person.
You went and thendealt with bodies.
So from nobody to bodies.
That's a huge jump.
AVA ALTENBERN (12:43):
And especially towards the last of my eight
months at the morgue,we weren't dealing
with a lot of COVIDcases anymore.
But that was definitelysomething at the start of it.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:54):
When you were working in the morgue,
you were actuallyholding the bodies
of folks who died from COVID?
AVA ALTENBERN (12:58):
And so that was an in-your-face,
like the effects ofthis pandemic, just
both the emotionaland mental effects.
And then the physicalpeople have died from COVID.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:11):
But every time I hear you say draw blood,
because you're a visual artist,I see you drawing blood.
I just see it.
So had you discoveredat this moment
as you were really feelinginto this forensic pathology--
you were an arthistory double major.
And then you started takingintro classes in visual art.
(13:31):
And you had drawn-ish.
AVA ALTENBERN (13:33):
Yeah, the first time I ever
took an art classwas in junior high.
And that was the last time Ihad ever taken an art class--
ERIKA RANDALL (13:41):
In junior high?
AVA ALTENBERN (13:42):
Yeah, until CU, until my art history major.
But I learned very foundationalstuff in that art class.
And from there, I gotreally focused in just
learning technique andthe skill of drawing.
I did a lot of reallyhyper-realistic portraiture,
which is a little bitcontroversial now in the art
(14:03):
practice world becausea lot of people are.
It's so uninspired.
You're just copying aphoto, which I'm like, yeah,
I get that.
It takes some skill to do that.
And that's where Ireally struggled.
I couldn't create my own style.
That was really hard for me.
And we were talkingabout earlier,
that didn't really happen untilmy final art class in college,
ERIKA RANDALL: What was it that-- (14:24):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (14:25):
--which was last semester.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:26):
--got you into that--
was it that you took a riskon paper and said, there I am?
AVA ALTENBERN (14:32):
I've always been really wanting
to have a style that'ssimilar to comic book.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:37):
Yeah, that's what I feel when I look at your work.
But it's differentthan comic book
too because it hasthis hyper-realism
in a way that's thenjuxtaposed with another side.
AVA ALTENBERN (14:46):
--which if I ever wanted to do a comic book
or illustrate would be so hardbecause I would be so meticulous
about-- every detailwould take me years.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:54):
Forever.
You'd do one book.
AVA ALTENBERN (14:55):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:56):
You would do comic book.
AVA ALTENBERN (14:57):
Yeah, that's it.
And so I always wantedto have that style.
But I had never reallybeen challenged.
I never challenged myself.
And I didn't know thesteps to take that.
And I took just theintro to painting class
for art history majors becausethere's a non-majors class.
But our teacher, ourprofessor, was a grad student.
(15:20):
And it was her finalsemester as a grad student.
So our first day ofclass, I remember
I was 10 minuteslate to that class.
I'm never late to anything.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:29):
Were are you nervous?
AVA ALTENBERN (15:30):
I just slept through.
It was in the morning.
It was a five-hour class.
And I slept through my alarms.
And I was 10 minutes late.
And I walk in.
And the first thing shesays to me, she's like,
try to be on time.
And I'm like--
ERIKA RANDALL (15:41):
Great impression.
AVA ALTENBERN (15:42):
Yeah, wonderful.
But she actually hashundreds of thousands
of followers on Instagram--
ERIKA RANDALL: --because of her style. (15:48):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN: --because of her art. (15:49):
undefined
And I didn't know this beforeI signed up for this class.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:54):
Kind of internet famous.
AVA ALTENBERN (15:55):
And I was like, oh my god, she's my teacher.
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (15:58):
Did you like her style?
AVA ALTENBERN (16:00):
Yeah, I love her style.
It's very Gothic.
She does a lot of printand metal work now.
But, oh my gosh, it's beautiful.
She makes all these pendants.
And I actually foundher on Instagram
through one of myfriends from Arizona
because she repostedone of her pieces.
ERIKA RANDALL (16:19):
That's how you took the class?
Or you were in the classalready, and one of your friends
said, check this out?
You're going to dig it.
And you said, that's my teacher.
AVA ALTENBERN: That's my teacher. (16:26):
undefined
ERIKA RANDALL (16:28):
You have some good coincidence.
AVA ALTENBERN (16:31):
There's no such thing as a coincidence.
I think--
ERIKA RANDALL (16:34):
What do you call them,
those moments that are like--
AVA ALTENBERN (16:36):
[LAUGHS] I just was like, OK, that's great.
I don't really call themanything, just little panic
moments because I'm like--
ERIKA RANDALL (16:45):
You look around and feel like--
AVA ALTENBERN: --something's watching me (16:47):
undefined
or something'smoving all the parts.
I think everythinghappens for a reason.
I do think we haveagency of getting there.
But I think it all works out inthe end, hopefully, because--
ERIKA RANDALL (17:01):
Even when it--
AVA ALTENBERN (17:02):
--looks like it's not working out, it will.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:05):
So this teacher inspired
you to dig into your owness?
AVA ALTENBERN (17:08):
But I really wanted
to hone in on thisexperience that I
had during my junior year.
everything washappening at once.
I felt very lost.
I didn't know what Iwas doing at CU anymore.
I was having a very hard time.
I had lost a lot offriends back home.
And a lot was goingon with my family.
So it was like-- everythinghappened all at once.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:30):
I mean, it always is.
But there are times whereit really feels like it.
AVA ALTENBERN (17:33):
Oh my gosh.
I remember it was right when Icame because all this happened
over the summer.
And then I came toCU my junior year.
And we drove my carup from Arizona.
Within the first week of havingmy car, all this was happening.
I get a flat tire.
And I'm like, areyou kidding me?
ERIKA RANDALL (17:50):
No, I know.
The week of mywedding, my mom died.
And I got a flat tire.
And when the tire did the--
I was like, are you kidding me?
It's that one thing.
Everything is always happening.
And then there's the one thing.
AVA ALTENBERN (18:01):
I was like, this is--
and my dad had been inthe hospital briefly.
And I also lost a friend at CU.
So it felt like I wastotally on my own.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:11):
So you put all of that?
AVA ALTENBERN (18:12):
Yeah.
Well, and it was justthis emotion of--
I remember being veryangry during that time
and just pissed off at theworld and pissed off at myself.
And what I did to fix that, Ithrew myself into everything.
And I did my autopsy internship.
I got into MuayThai and kickboxing.
I was just trying everything.
(18:32):
I worked a lot, took a lotof classes that I normally
wouldn't have taken.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:37):
Were you overanding?
AVA ALTENBERN (18:38):
Yes, which is something I always tell people.
I was a studentambassador for the College
of Arts and Sciences.
And one of the-- at our lastmeeting, my boss was like,
give us one piece of advice.
And I was like, definitelydon't underestimate yourself
because you can do so muchmore than you think you can do.
I am an example of that.
(18:59):
But also don'toverestimate yourself
because you can way overdo it.
And finding that balanceis something that
took me until my senior year.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:08):
What was it that got you to understanding that?
Because I still need to know.
AVA ALTENBERN (19:12):
Well, I mean, I think
it was just me overdoing it.
I'd always pushed myself a lot.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:17):
Did you get sick?
Did you get sad?
Did you--
AVA ALTENBERN (19:18):
I got sick--
ERIKA RANDALL: --just hit a wall? (19:18):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (19:19):
--so much.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:20):
You got sick?
AVA ALTENBERN (19:21):
And my roommate got sick a lot too.
But it was constantly.
I'd get sick.
And then she'd get sickbecause she was living with me.
And then she'd getsick, and I'd get sick.
So I was constantly-- we wereconstantly ill in that house.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:31):
But it helped.
The everything to findwhat you wanted to do
helped until it didn'tuntil then it was too much.
AVA ALTENBERN (19:38):
And I finally started
going to therapy this year--
ERIKA RANDALL (19:42):
And slowed down.
AVA ALTENBERN (19:42):
--in January.
And I remember my first sessionwith my therapist, which,
oh my gosh, therapy is amazing.
People, do therapy.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:50):
Do therapy.
AVA ALTENBERN (19:51):
Even if you don't think you need therapy,
just do therapy.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:53):
Say yes to the internship.
Get the tattoo you want.
Go to the art-- what'sit called, the art store?
AVA ALTENBERN (19:59):
Art Parts.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:00):
Go to Art Parts and do therapy.
AVA ALTENBERN (20:01):
Do therapy.
Yeah, that is myadvice to people.
But I remember tellingmy therapist everything
that I had to do my lastsemester senior year.
And I was taking 20credits of classes.
I had two jobs on campus.
I wasn't in myinternship anymore.
But I had my honors thesis.
(20:22):
And I was stilldoing lab research,
which takes a lot of time.
It was at least 12 to 20hours per week in the lab.
And then I had to writethis thesis and defend it.
And on top of that, I was like,why not study for the MCAT?
Why not do that?
ERIKA RANDALL (20:36):
Why not do that?
So you--
AVA ALTENBERN (20:37):
I can--
ERIKA RANDALL (20:37):
--did that?
AVA ALTENBERN (20:37):
--do that.
And I didn't.
I did not study.
ERIKA RANDALL: That's the thing-- (20:40):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (20:42):
I took it, but I didn't study for it.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:45):
But you are still launching
into this whole new space.
You're moving to DC.
Tell me what you're going to do.
AVA ALTENBERN (20:51):
So I actually got--
it was funny because Ihad done all this stuff.
And then I graduated.
And I realized I didn't planfor what I was going to do next.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:59):
You just were doing all this stuff.
AVA ALTENBERN (21:00):
I was doing everything
because my original planwas, I was going to apply
for med school this summer.
And I didn't study for the MCAT.
I think I did pretty OK,pretty well for not studying
but definitelyneed to retake it.
And so I had to give myselfa little bit of grace, which
was very hard for me to do.
And I changed my entire plan.
I was like, I don't knowwhat I'm going to do.
(21:22):
And one of thepeople from my lab
actually was going to theNational Institute of Health
to do this post-baccalaureateprogram that they have.
And it's an amazing program.
You get paid dirt.
But, I mean, you're doingresearch right out of college,
what do you expect?
And so they have--
it's the NationalInstitute of Health.
I like to describe it aslike a college campus.
(21:44):
But it's just research labs.
There's postdocs, juststaff scientists, the PIs,
or the principalinvestigators, and a bunch
of postdocs running around.
Everyone--
ERIKA RANDALL (21:55):
Do you know what you're
going to be on, what labyou're going to be in?
AVA ALTENBERN (21:58):
And so I'm in this virology lab that
are looking at RNA viruses.
And so it's still in the RNA.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:03):
It still connects.
AVA ALTENBERN (22:04):
And they are specifically looking
at influenza and reovirus.
And I think it's avery flexible lab.
But I think I'm probably goingto be on the reovirus project
because they want to figureout the mRNA transcription
mechanisms.
And that was my whole shtick.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:19):
That was your stick.
So you're in it.
So it doesn't feeloverwhelming to you
even though it's super new.
And it's a big thing.
And the government is sniffinginto all of your business.
AVA ALTENBERN (22:27):
My info.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:28):
Your info.
But you feel ready.
You feel prepped for this.
AVA ALTENBERN (22:31):
And so I found out about this
through the otherperson in my lab.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:36):
Do you think your art side also
helped you land this next?
AVA ALTENBERN (22:41):
I think it definitely
makes a point of interest.
There's a plus that evenon med school applications,
med schools are alsolooking for people who and.
Now, it's not just the sciences.
You have to be someonewho also has something
else in their wheelhouse.
And so I think it'sa thing that's--
(23:01):
it starts a lotof conversations--
ERIKA RANDALL (23:03):
Well--
AVA ALTENBERN (23:03):
--definitely.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:03):
--you have a lot of conversations to start.
I'm so grateful for this one.
I think it's time forthe quick and dirty.
I think we got to get in on it.
Are you ready?
AVA ALTENBERN (23:11):
Sure.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:11):
Do you know what the quick and dirty is?
AVA ALTENBERN (23:12):
No, I do not.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:13):
OK, so the quick and dirty
is when I ask you questions andyou have to answer them quick.
But it doesn't have to be dirty.
All right, so I wantto hear more about--
because you already said it.
But I need to know more--
your favorite or the most wrongmusic and autopsy combinations.
AVA ALTENBERN (23:31):
Oh God.
I think the Taylor Swiftone was a little bit weird.
You're usually used towalking in and being
a lot of rock and metal.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:43):
Which album do you remember?
AVA ALTENBERN (23:44):
I don't know.
I think it was one ofher earlier ones too.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:47):
Good.
That's actually weirder.
AVA ALTENBERN (23:48):
Yeah, it was like her debut or something.
And I like Taylor Swift.
I'm going to her concert.
I'm so excited.
Well, I have a week of concerts.
I'm doing Fall Out Boyand Bring Me the Horizon
and then Paramore andthen Taylor Swift.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:01):
OK, so that would have
been my next quick and dirtyis your favorite bands.
AVA ALTENBERN (24:06):
Fall Out Boy has always been my lifelong love.
But also my favorite artistof all time is Billy Joel.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:12):
Oh my god.
[LAUGHS]
AVA ALTENBERN (24:15):
I went to his concert when I was 18.
But I love Billy Joel's so much.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:20):
Stop.
The Piano Man?
AVA ALTENBERN (24:22):
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (24:23):
Do you have a favorite Billy Joel that has
"and" in it?
I need a Billy Joel "and" song.
Can you think of one or a lyric?
AVA ALTENBERN (24:29):
I don't know.
But my favoriteBilly Joel song is--
what is it called now?
It's literally my favorite.
And I can't--
ERIKA RANDALL (24:37):
This is what happens on the quick and dirty.
AVA ALTENBERN (24:38):
I think I know the first line of it.
"These are notthe best of times,
but they're the onlytimes I've ever known."
ERIKA RANDALL (24:43):
I know that song.
That sounds exactly like--
AVA ALTENBERN (24:46):
"Summer Highland Falls."
ERIKA RANDALL (24:48):
Thank you.
AVA ALTENBERN (24:48):
"Summer Highland Falls."
ERIKA RANDALL (24:50):
"Summer Highland Falls."
AVA ALTENBERN (24:52):
I also love "Scenes from an Italian
Restaurant"--
ERIKA RANDALL (24:54):
Oh my god.
I love "Scenes from anItalian Restaurant."
AVA ALTENBERN (24:55):
--just because my mom told me
once that her and my dad--before they were married,
they used to dance inthe kitchen to that song.
And it's just such--
I love that song.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:05):
Kitchen dancing is the best.
OK, what is youranding accessory
that you would wear to spiceup your PPE medical white coat
reality?
What would you roll upin that still says "Ava?"
AVA ALTENBERN (25:17):
I have a bunch of earrings.
I have a bunch of piercings.
And I'm not wearingall of them right now.
I have one special--
ERIKA RANDALL (25:23):
You have a pink safety--
AVA ALTENBERN (25:26):
It's like--
ERIKA RANDALL: Like a star dangle? (25:27):
undefined
AVA ALTENBERN (25:29):
Yeah, it's like a dangle.
But it has a butterfly on it.
And then there's amushroom on the side.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:34):
And then a sweet butterfly on your neck.
AVA ALTENBERN (25:35):
I have a lot of jewelry.
I love jewelry.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:37):
Sparkly jewelry.
OK, food combination ofyour guilty pleasures?
AVA ALTENBERN (25:42):
Oh God.
When I was younger, I usedto do this really gross thing
that I sometimes still do.
My best friend frommy childhood and I
used to call itgarbage noodles, just
because they looked likethey came out of the garbage.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:56):
What's in garbage noodles?
AVA ALTENBERN (25:57):
It's just literally like butter noodles
with an excess amount ofsalt and pepper and just
random spices.
That's it.
And you just make it grossbecause it looks disgusting.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:06):
It looks like brains.
AVA ALTENBERN (26:07):
When we were younger, and we didn't know--
we were like eightand didn't know how
to cook something on the stove.
We put noodles ina bowl of water
and put it in the microwave--
ERIKA RANDALL (26:16):
Garbage noodles.
AVA ALTENBERN: --which did not work. (26:17):
undefined
But we still ate it.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:19):
You still ate it.
So you would stilleat that today?
AVA ALTENBERN (26:20):
Yeah, I used to do that with ramen
because I'm vegetarian.
So I don't usuallyuse the packets
unless it's the vegetarian one.
And so I would drain out-- allof my roommates were horrified.
I would drain outall of the water
and just make pastawith the ramen noodles
because it was quick andeasy and I was in college.
So--
ERIKA RANDALL (26:39):
I love it.
AVA ALTENBERN (26:39):
--it's gross.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:40):
Quick and dirty garbage noodles.
OK, you have a blessing thatyou are going to send folks off
with, a thing that you're goingto say that's going to go,
and may you always, da, da, da.
What would yours be?
AVA ALTENBERN (26:53):
I'm stealing it from Ted Lasso, which
I think everyone should watch.
Ted Lasso, number one.
But be curious andnot judgmental.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:00):
Can you put an and in there at the beginning?
AVA ALTENBERN (27:05):
And be curious and not judgmental?
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (27:11):
Now say it like you mean it.
AVA ALTENBERN (27:12):
And be curious and not judgmental.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
That was Ava Altenbernon The Ampersand.
Hey, med schools, you'dbe lucky to have her.
Learn more about Avain our show notes.
The Ampersand is aproduction of the College
of Arts and Sciences at theUniversity of Colorado, Boulder.
(27:33):
It is written and producedby me, Erika Randall
and Tim Grassley.
If there are peopleyou'd like us
to interview on TheAmpersand, do please email
us at asinfo@colorado.edu.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker,
and the episodes are recorded atInterplay Recording in Boulder,
Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall.
(27:54):
And this is The Ampersand.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
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