November 18, 2024 • 33 mins
Beyond a wild ride of an interview, Eric Small gifted us a new favorite word that describes his hydrological research on water, energy and carbon budgets of the Earth's surface—ground-truthing. On today's episode, Eric explosively (i.e., like a Muppet) walks us through the practice of matching on-the-ground maps with satellite data. Beyond the sheer hilarity of his and Erika's conversation, what makes this such a fun interview is his unwavering belief that easy answers are hard to come by and they only get more complex the closer you choose to look.
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Learn more about Eric's research.
Original music composed by Nelson Walker.
Recorded at Interplay Recording and Multimedia.
Written and produced by Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
The Ampersand is a production of the College of Arts and Sciences at the University of Colorado Boulder.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[CLANKING]
(00:02):
ERIKA RANDALL (00:03):
A and S.
[CLANKING, CHIMING]
[THE MUPPETS, "THE MUPPET SHOWTHEME"] It's time to play
the music
I imagine walking onto the set of The Muppet
Show, CU Boulder Editionand stopping in my tracks
at the sight of Eric Small,transformed into a Jim Henson
Muppet.
(00:23):
His arms flail andhis mouth opens
wide to the Colorado sky inan explosion of excitement
and laughter.
As he settles, I imagineMuppet Eric ducks out of camera
and jumps back as his humanself just as joyful and ready
to move into action.
Dearest ANDers, Iknow many of you
want to wish this version ofThe Muppet Show into being,
but have hope.
Eric Small, while verymuch a real human,
(00:46):
might if you look with the rightframe, in fact, be a Muppet.
KERMIT (00:51):
--The Muppet Show, voted the best
show in the world out of allthe shows hosted by frogs.
[LAUGHTER]
But first, an opening number.
ERIKA RANDALL (01:03):
I can't imagine, Eric happier than deep in a snow
hole outside of Crested Butte.
On today's episode, Eric divesinto his hydrology research,
his love of visual art,performing music, parenting,
and a word I'm now obsessedwith, "ground truthing."
In our conversation, Eric notonly elaborates on what "ground
truthing" means, but why thistruthing of the ground matters
(01:24):
to our water systems.
He also helps usvividly experience
his science andthe way the Earth
smells when you firststrike dirt under the snow.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
On The Ampersand, we callthis bringing together
of the impossible, the"alchemy of ANDing."
Together, we'll hear stories ofhumans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
(01:46):
Rather than thinking of "and"as a simple conjunction and that
Conjunction Junctionkind of way,
we will hear stories of peoplewho see "and" as a verb,
a way to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally "let
the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves."
As St. Mary Oliver asks, "Whatis it you plan to do with
your one wild andprecious life?"
Oh, I love this question.
(02:08):
When I'm mothering,creating, and collaborating,
it reminds me toreplace a singular
idea of what I think I shouldbecome with a full sensory verb
about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall.
And this is Eric Smallon The Ampersand.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ERIC SMALL (02:31):
The one time I did get caught-- so here
is the trick.
In my house, where I grewup, it was an older house.
ERIKA RANDALL (02:36):
In New York.
Not the city.
ERIC SMALL (02:38):
No, no.
In the suburbs.
You'd have to climba flight of stairs
to get up to the bedrooms.
And my parents' bedroom wasat the top of the stairs.
And the stairs were creaky.
And you'd stand on--
you kind of knewwhere you could stand.
But still, there was no wayto make it up these stairs
without, like, creak, creak.
ERIKA RANDALL (02:53):
You're getting busted.
ERIC SMALL (02:53):
You're getting busted.
Luckily, my father was a snorer,so I would wait for the--
[SNORES], and then I would step.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:00):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (03:01):
But the problem was, he was not a rhythmic snorer.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:04):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (03:05):
So you'd have to be on one
leg ready to step on theother, and you'd wait for the--
[SNORES], and then you'd step.
And so I would use this to getback into the house at 1:00 AM
or 2:00 AM, whatever it took.
And I did get caughtonce when I went out
the side door at midnight.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:20):
Who were you visiting?
ERIC SMALL (03:21):
Her first name was Sherry.
I can't remember herlast name right now.
She was my highschool girlfriend.
Yeah, it was a long time ago.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:26):
Well, we're just going to leave Sherry.
It's not that youdon't remember,
but just to protectthe innocent.
We're going to leave Sherry's--
ERIC SMALL (03:32):
I was the innocent.
Thank you very much.
Someone shouldhave protected me.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:36):
Sherry from the block.
ERIC SMALL (03:37):
Yeah, right.
So I snuck out.
And when I came back in,the dog had gotten out,
because the screendoor hadn't latched.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:43):
Oh, the dog totally screwed you.
ERIC SMALL (03:43):
And he howled from--
he did.
He screwed me.
Instead of screwing thepooch, the pooch screwed me.
And from threeblocks away, this dog
never barked at anyoneever in his whole life,
except that one night.
Three blocks away-- [HOWLS].
And I'm getting closer.
I'm like, oh, god.
And I finally-- I get to thehouse and I grabbed the dog.
And my mothercomes out, I think.
And I was like, didyou hear him barking?
She's like, yeah.
(04:04):
And I was like, well,I came out to get him.
I don't know how he got out.
And she's like,why are you dressed
if you just-- dun, dun, dun,and I was caught with this.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:11):
Yeah, the bottle cap.
ERIC SMALL (04:12):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:12):
But it was a dog that busted you in that moment.
ERIC SMALL (04:14):
The dog busted me, yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:16):
But you have a dog now.
Is that why?
ERIC SMALL (04:17):
I do.
I do.
Well, it's a very different dog.
The current dog is more oftherapy, warm pillow like thing.
He's halfway betweenanimal and stuffed animal.
And--
ERIKA RANDALL (04:31):
Is he like a Muppet?
ERIC SMALL (04:32):
He's very much like a Muppet.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:34):
OK, did you pick him
because you're like a Muppet?
You know I think thatyou are such a Muppet.
I can't even get over it.
I really wish that peoplelistening could just
see everything aboutyour facial expressions.
You were doing a really good jobkeeping your arms under wraps.
But usually, it's like this bah!
Explosion.
ERIC SMALL (04:48):
Well, that's because this microphone is
in front of me.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:50):
I know, because we're in a tiny house.
ERIC SMALL (04:51):
We're in a tiny house.
But you could fitnine of us in here.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:53):
OK, Muppet.
So in your Fozzie-nessis that because of your--
like, there's a play in you?
Like, there a playfulness thathelps drive your questioning
or is your questioning separatefrom that kind of light
playfulness thatI love about you?
ERIC SMALL (05:07):
Well, I can't not be playful.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:08):
You can't not be?
ERIC SMALL (05:09):
How could I not be playful?
ERIKA RANDALL (05:10):
Well, because the planet is dying
and you study things that letus know the water is drying up
in the world andthat you let us--
like, you have access to datathat says it's getting hard out
there for a bear.
ERIC SMALL (05:24):
It is getting hard out there for some bears.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:27):
For some bears.
ERIC SMALL (05:27):
But for other bears, it might be getting easier.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:29):
See what you just did there?
That's what I'm saying.
You have this ability to see--
I don't know if it'sbalance or-- it's dimension,
like, to see thingsfrom a complex space.
ERIC SMALL (05:40):
The answers aren't simple.
ERIKA RANDALL: They're not yes or no. (05:42):
undefined
ERIC SMALL (05:43):
They're not yes or no.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:44):
No.
ERIC SMALL (05:44):
And any time you pose the question
as a yes or noanswer, it will fail.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:50):
Yeah.
ERIC SMALL (05:50):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:51):
So is that the way
that you ask questionsthat are more open-ended
and that can take you anywhere?
Do you think that's whyyou went into science
or do you think that sciencefound you because of--
talk to me.
ERIC SMALL (06:03):
I think science found me, because my--
that was not my vision.
My vision was not science.
My vision was mostdefinitely not science.
My vision was music.
And I was steeredtowards science.
And I think I justhad skills that
allowed me to excel in sciencemore than I would have,
(06:24):
perhaps, in music or art.
ERIKA RANDALL (06:26):
Who steered you?
ERIC SMALL (06:27):
I would say first my parents.
And I feel that the pathI took worked well given
my personality and my skills.
And I don't know that wasthe case for my brothers.
ERIKA RANDALL (06:40):
But you all were competitive around music,
around sports, around--
ERIC SMALL (06:44):
Yeah, around everything.
Everything.
What would we not havebeen competitive around?
So, for example, when wewould bring pizza home--
ERIKA RANDALL (06:50):
I was going to say food.
I was just about to say, wereyou competitive about food?
ERIC SMALL (06:53):
The rule was you had to finish your piece of pizza
before you couldtake the next one.
But everyone was always eyeingwhat's the next best piece?
And you couldn'treach-- you could only
take from the empty places.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:04):
What defines-- is it the most slices of pepperoni?
Is it more cheese orthe bubble in the crust?
ERIC SMALL (07:08):
I don't think it was the bubble in the crust.
I think it was probablythe sausage on the pizza
or the size of the slice.
And we just hadthis unspoken rule
that you would never takea piece from the inside.
You'd have to take oneof the next pieces.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:19):
Oh, my god, it was a game.
It was--
ERIC SMALL (07:21):
So if one of the next pieces
was small orundesirable somehow,
ERIKA RANDALL (07:24):
You would go slower.
ERIC SMALL (07:25):
You would go slower.
But if the next piece wasgood, you would go faster.
ERIKA RANDALL: This is exhausting. (07:29):
undefined
ERIC SMALL (07:30):
Well, this was what we did.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:32):
This is what you did.
What did your mother do?
ERIC SMALL (07:34):
She rolled with it.
She was-- she would roll.
She did not micromanage that.
She did not micromanage a lot.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:41):
Except for your career from arts.
ERIC SMALL (07:42):
Well.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:42):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (07:44):
I think that was--
[CHUCKLES] That wasn'ta lot of micromanaging.
And I think thathad to be the case.
Can you imagine having-- myyounger brother was a fair bit
younger, but two teenageboys in high school--
rawr, you know?
Like, full on.
And you just got tojust roll with it.
And a big golden retriever.
And yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:01):
Your brother was a big golden retriever?
ERIC SMALL (08:02):
Yeah, right.
He was the-- yeah.
[CHUCKLES]
ERIKA RANDALL (08:04):
That was his Muppet identity.
OK.
When I was reading yourabstract for Nature--
is that what you were writing?
ERIC SMALL (08:10):
Oh, that one.
Yes, yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:12):
I was reading about it.
And I had been reading itother things on the internet
around snow density and about--
there was an acronymI was going to try
to remember aboutwater-to-snow exchange rate.
E--
ERIC SMALL (08:23):
SWE.
S-W-E.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:24):
SWE, S-W-E.
ERIC SMALL (08:25):
Yep, Snow Water Equivalent.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:26):
Snow Water--
So I was workingon, I was learning--
and you know I love language.
And I'm readingall this language.
And I'm getting really curious.
And it does not make mewant to go in a snow hole
and measure and dothe ground truthing
of what is the actualdata, compare it
to the satellite data.
It does not make me want tosit with those charts that
were in that.
ERIC SMALL (08:45):
But that's the--
ERIKA RANDALL (08:46):
But I got real curious,
and I got really excited, and Iwanted to talk to you about it.
But I was like, no,see, not a scientist.
ERIC SMALL (08:54):
But there's two axes--
there's many axes, butthere's two primary axes.
One is this ability to thinkand get interested and look
at it from different angles.
And the other, which I'mnot necessarily good at,
is the personality trait ofcarefully making measurements
over and over again.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:14):
Nope.
ERIC SMALL (09:14):
That for me is a struggle.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:16):
I don't put lids on things.
I don't fill thecoffee up the same--
my wife is always like, really?
It says six.
ERIC SMALL (09:24):
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (09:24):
You have to fill it to the--
I'm always like, meh, it's good.
ERIC SMALL (09:27):
So you could not want
to go and dig asnow hole, snow pit
and make all the measurements.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:32):
I don't want to do that.
ERIC SMALL (09:32):
But in a minute, I'm going
to try to convince you thatyou do want to do that.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:35):
I can't wait for that.
Is that time hereyet or, no, really?
ERIC SMALL (09:38):
No, it's in a second.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:39):
It's in a second.
ERIC SMALL (09:39):
Because some scientists
are amazing at carefullycollecting the data.
Every little detailis being checked.
And they just keep progressingthrough the planned research.
And at the end, they'veamassed this data set,
that if designedoriginally ahead of time,
will reveal some of answerthat no one had before.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:59):
Amazing.
That's kind ofyour "ish" to that.
ERIC SMALL (10:03):
I can force myself to do it when necessary.
And as a grad student,I had to do that.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:08):
You had to do that.
ERIC SMALL (10:08):
I had to do that, because no one
else was going to do it.
That was my job.
And now, as someonewho's progressed
through my career,most of the time,
I'm not looking at theindividual trees in the forest.
And the grad students are orsome of my collaborators are.
ERIKA RANDALL: But you've sent me (10:25):
undefined
a pictures from the snow hole.
ERIC SMALL (10:26):
Oh, I'll go and do that.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:27):
OK.
ERIC SMALL (10:28):
But I don't go to do it
because I despisedigging the snow pit
and making the measurements.
But when you're out there, it'slike a very different experience
than you could havedoing anything else.
Because you are there all day.
You cannot leave until you'redone, regardless of the weather,
regardless of ifyou're tired or hungry.
(10:48):
And the sun is movingacross the sky.
The weather is changing.
And you just experienceit in a different way
than you ever would ifyou just wanted to visit
the same place as a tourist.
As a tourist, you'd ski on upthere or snowshoe up there.
You'd have your snack.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:04):
You'd snap a picture.
It'd be like, this is whatthis place looks like, period.
ERIC SMALL (11:07):
Yeah, let's--
ERIKA RANDALL (11:08):
[INAUDIBLE]
ERIC SMALL (11:08):
You're right.
But it looksdifferent in an hour,
and then it really looksdifferent in three hours.
And then, the otherthing what we get to do
is we get to go to thebottom of that snow pit
and smell the forest floor.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:18):
[SIGHS]
ERIC SMALL (11:18):
And the thing is because it's
been blanketed bysnow for months,
so it's this like concentrate--it's like an aged wine.
You pull off the cork,which is the snow,
and you're like, [DEEP SNIFF].
Every snow pitsmells differently.
If you're in a forest, itsmells different than a meadow.
Yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:34):
See, now I-- in my head,
what do you think I see?
Because I'm doing something.
ERIC SMALL (11:38):
You see one of the Muppets
at the bottom of a snow pit.
[LAUGHTER]
ERIKA RANDALL (11:42):
No, because that would
be like, [ANIMATED BABBLE].
But, no, I have theseperfect different glass
vials with corks with the nameof Mountain nuh, nuh, nuh.
Like, I have a-- then, Ihave Prairie nuh, nuh, nuh.
I have Deep Aspen nuh, nuh, nuh.
It's like cologne names.
That's where I am.
I'm like already--I'm branding it.
I'm naming it.
(12:03):
I'm selling.
It's on in the--
ERIC SMALL (12:05):
Sounds great.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:06):
That's where my brain goes.
OK, your brain says, digthe snow pit, get the huff,
get the data, zoom backout, learn the thing,
save the planet,make sure there's
going to be enough water.
ERIC SMALL (12:17):
Sure.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:17):
Well, what does your brain do?
Can you--
ERIC SMALL (12:19):
What does my brain do?
ERIKA RANDALL (12:20):
And then, it's like almost a minute,
and you're going to convince me.
ERIC SMALL (12:22):
What my brain does is say,
in order for thegraduate students
to have a complete experienceand for the undergraduates
to have a completeexperience, they
must go out, and dig asnow pit, and actually
put their fingers in thesnow and experience it
at the different levels,and make the temperature
measurements and the watercontent measurements,
and then they haveto do it again.
Because once you do it again,and again, and again, you
(12:44):
see how variable it isand how challenging it
is to take all thatstuff in nature
and try to summarize it inyour scientific results,
and then writeabout it in a paper.
So personally, I don't needto go dig another snow pit.
I've smelled the forest floor.
I like the smell ofthe forest floor.
I can always goback and smell more.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:04):
You can always go back.
ERIC SMALL (13:04):
Yes, I could go back for that.
And I could go backfor the long day.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:08):
You like the long day.
ERIC SMALL (13:10):
I like the long day with the colleagues,
with the students,with the friends,
with the light changing,with the weather changing.
I like the removalfrom society otherwise.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:22):
You don't get distracted when you're there.
You're not thinking--
ERIC SMALL (13:25):
Much less distracted.
At one of our primary researchsites when we started,
there was no cellphone coverage.
And it was great.
You just turned your phone offand you would just work all day.
And the time changed.
The way you experience timeand everything changed.
And then at the end of theday, you'd get back to the car,
and you'd put your phone on,and be like, oh, OK, Erika, she
texted me.
[CHUCKLES] And youhave texted me.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:47):
And I have texted you
when you come back from that.
ERIC SMALL (13:49):
And now, of course, they
keep putting upmore cell towers.
And you get more-- so itchanges the experience.
You have to go furtheraway or get deeper
into the snow pit or something.
But that's part of it, too.
It's just a change inhow you spend a day.
They're the longest days.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:02):
But good long.
ERIC SMALL (14:03):
Oh, good long.
Well, and bad long.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:04):
And hard long.
ERIC SMALL (14:05):
Hard long, and bad long, and good long,
and memorable.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:08):
And that is my favorite new word
that I said, oh, Eric, isthis ground truthing, right?
Not everyone knows it.
Can you, for our listeners,just talk about that.
Because I know it has alot of different contexts.
ERIC SMALL (14:19):
It does have a lot of different contexts.
So one context would begoing out into the field
to a remote site, a localsite, and making measurements
on the ground.
And these should be themost reliable measurements,
because you are there.
And what you're doing isyou're ground truthing,
a measurement that would be madefrom space or from an airplane.
So you put some of sensor onan airplane or on a satellite.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:42):
So there's a context.
ERIC SMALL (14:43):
Yeah, and you're making a measurement.
But that measurement isvery indirect, right?
And someone has takenthat measurement, which
could be like a radiance, ameasurement of brightness,
and they've turnedit into something
like physically meaningfulin hydrology or geology,
like Snow Water Equivalent.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:59):
Yes, SWE.
ERIC SMALL: [CHUCKLES] There were (15:01):
undefined
many steps betweenthat satellite
measurement and thefinal physical parameter
that you care about.
So the ground truthingis going out there
and making the measurementthat's most closely related
to that physical parameter.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:14):
So that human practice
is still the most reliable.
ERIC SMALL (15:16):
Yeah.
Well, it should be.
It should be.
But there are challengeswhen you do that.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:20):
Yeah, when there's ground fibbing.
ERIC SMALL (15:22):
Yeah.
[CHUCKLES] Ground fibbing.
You have to choose the spotwhere you're going to measure.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:26):
Yeah, yeah.
ERIC SMALL (15:27):
Every spot is different.
So you have tochoose enough spots.
You have to choose them inan objective fashion, right?
It's often very difficultto get to the spots
you've planned when you werelooking at the computer screen.
And you're like, oh, wehave to go over there.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:40):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (15:41):
Oh, no, my snow shoe is already falling off.
And I'm hungry.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:44):
It's like how people ended up in Colorado
instead of California.
ERIC SMALL (15:48):
Yeah, they're like, this is good enough.
We can't-- we're not goingover any more mountains.
Yeah, yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:52):
When you--
so you got into science,but then you're really
into snow and water, right?
How did that become--
was it because you had a mentor?
What got you intothat part of the--
ERIC SMALL (16:07):
So it was a circuitous path.
And when I started, therewere people I was working with
and they were doingcertain things.
I was like, that's cool.
Let me look into this.
And then--
ERIKA RANDALL (16:16):
This was graduate school or?
ERIC SMALL (16:17):
This was graduate school.
And that overlapped with someother things, where I was like,
oh, these people aredoing something different.
Let me study that for a while.
And then, I wasworking with a new set
of colleagues and studentsand studying climate.
And I was like, thisis really fascinating.
And then as I movedto become a professor,
I first studied ecosystemsand soil, and water and soil,
(16:39):
and then that transitioned intostudying snow and snow melt
and stream flow.
So it's just been onething connects to the next.
The hydrologiccycle, at some point,
I will have beena water molecule
and gone all the way around.
I haven't studiedthe ocean very much.
And I think maybe as it ends,I will flow to the ocean
(17:02):
and just be part of it all.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:04):
Oh, I hope so for all of us.
OK, is it time nowfor you to convince me
about how the other--the thing you were
going to convince me of it.
You said it was onlya minute, but we just
talked for four and half, thatyou were going to convince me
that I could be a scientist.
ERIC SMALL (17:17):
I was going to convince you that you
should go to a snow pit.
[LAUGHTER]
No, no.
Not that you shouldbe a scientist.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:22):
OK, good.
ERIC SMALL (17:23):
No, no, no.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:24):
That's not going to happen.
ERIC SMALL (17:24):
You shouldn't be a scientist.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:25):
But I should--
I'll go to a snow pit.
ERIC SMALL (17:26):
You should at some point.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:27):
I'll come to a snow pit.
ERIC SMALL (17:28):
Yeah, they're not hard to get to.
And they're fun to dig.
Do you like digging?
ERIKA RANDALL (17:31):
I do like digging.
ERIC SMALL (17:32):
I love digging.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:33):
Yeah, I've dug--
I have with my wife dug thesame hole twice for a tree.
And it was frustratingthe second time,
because we realized the firsthole was too close to the house.
So digging the same hole twice,you do that all the time.
ERIC SMALL (17:46):
So each year, when we're
done with our season, whichusually is four or five visits,
each visit to the siteis like two to two
and half days with 6 toeight people full days.
At the end of theseason, we have
removed from thesepits a mass of snow
that's equal to aboutfour or five blue whales.
(18:07):
I know.
Picture a blue whale.
Can you?
ERIKA RANDALL (18:09):
I am.
ERIC SMALL (18:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not volume.
This is the massof the blue whale.
But we have all season to do it.
And then, whenafter you've made--
ERIKA RANDALL (18:17):
But you don't tell them before you start,
you're about to--
ERIC SMALL (18:20):
Move a bunch of blue whales off this mountain.
Well, if you're smart--
ERIKA RANDALL (18:24):
You don't start with that, do you?
Because I'd be like, nope.
I am not going to movean ocean of snow whales.
ERIC SMALL (18:30):
Exactly.
We do.
At the end, we say, wow, wereally dug a lot of pits.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:33):
Yeah.
ERIC SMALL (18:34):
Yeah, in this ground truthing,
because we can'tjust dig one pit.
Because when you dig that nextpit, you get a different answer.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:39):
You get a different answer.
So you need to getenough different answers.
ERIC SMALL (18:41):
Right, and we try to stick to our design
that we set up years ago--
keep it consistent, keepmaking measurements.
And if we do thatenough, the answers
are revealed or, atleast, the best answer
you can come up with.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:54):
The best answer you can come up with.
And this is what Ilove about the way
that I'm understandingyour research as well.
Is that the best answerfor x amount of dollars.
OK, this is what kind of blewmy mind about your research.
And I want you to sayit in the right way,
because I'm thinkingabout this--
your abstract that I read.
And I had neverimagined, and this
has come up in a coupleof other interviews
(19:15):
with scientists, howimportant money is.
[LAUGHTER]
ERIC SMALL (19:20):
Well, let me tell you, Erika.
Last night, I waswriting a proposal
to the Bureau of Reclamationwith one of my colleagues.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:27):
The Bureau of Reclamation
is also-- you'vetold me this before.
You have so manypotential memoir titles.
And the "Bureau of Reclamation"is one of my favorite ones.
ERIC SMALL (19:35):
And it's funny, because on my way
to the studio here, I drove pastthe Reclamation Church, which
is like a mile tothe east of here.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:41):
See, the Bureau of Reclamation.
That's a band name, too, dude.
ERIC SMALL (19:45):
The Bureuau of Reclamation.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:46):
Yeah, OK.
So meanwhile, back at theBureau of Reclamation.
ERIC SMALL (19:48):
It is about the dollars.
Because you needto convince someone
who works for thefederal government,
usually, that the workyou're going to do
will provide the best answersfor the amount of money
that they're spending.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:04):
That's right.
ERIC SMALL (20:05):
Yeah, it's got to have value.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:07):
It's got to have value.
ERIC SMALL (20:07):
Yep.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:08):
And so the--
I think a lot of ourlisteners are like, how
do you two know each other?
[LAUGHTER]
And this whole thing aboutwhat is the best answer
for this amount of money.
That is how we know each other.
We really--
ERIC SMALL (20:23):
That is how we know each other.
What is the best answer--
ERIKA RANDALL: What is the best-- (20:26):
undefined
ERIC SMALL (20:27):
--for this amount of money?
ERIKA RANDALL (20:28):
--for this amount of money.
This is why you're my guy.
ERIC SMALL (20:30):
But isn't that always the question?
ERIKA RANDALL (20:32):
No, it's not.
Because some people, whatis the best answer for me?
What is the best answerfor this population?
Period.
And they don't go foran extra parameter.
I love a little friction, right?
I love it.
It helps me think better.
It helps me getactually out of what
is the answer I wish could be orwhat is the best possible thing
ever.
No, I want it tohave a little more.
(20:53):
And you operate like that.
ERIC SMALL (20:54):
Well, you've got to be practical.
You have to be pragmatic.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:57):
Yeah, I've never called
myself pragmatic or practical.
But I--
ERIC SMALL (21:00):
Oh, you're very--
oh, Erika.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:02):
I know, but I've never used that word.
So I--
ERIC SMALL (21:05):
Pragmatism.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:06):
I know.
I think I got a lot of it.
ERIC SMALL (21:07):
Yeah, you have to in your position.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:10):
And it just-- so even in the land of dance,
I can't just go, oh, Iwant to make a piece about,
because you have $2.
So I want to make apiece about for $2.
And so I think actuallythat has helped me
as an administrator make reallyhard decisions, because I
understand I'm making shapeslike a tight little box
with my hand.
And you do this really well.
(21:31):
And that's what you research.
You have to do it inyour research, too.
ERIC SMALL (21:34):
In the dance world, aren't
you implicitly being pragmaticabout the human body?
Don't you have tosay, well, I would
love to do something that--
ERIKA RANDALL (21:44):
But gravity.
ERIC SMALL (21:45):
But there's gravity.
And there's the human body.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:47):
Yeah, but that's when go,
no, OK, then I can't fly.
I can learn how todo four pirouettes
and use that sense of--
ERIC SMALL (21:55):
And that's what we do when we're writing a proposal
or doing the science.
It's like, well,we can't do that,
because that's not practicalgiven reasonable budgets.
But let's do this, whichis really darn cool.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:06):
Which is really darn cool as well.
ERIC SMALL (22:08):
So in this proposal for the Bureau of Reclamation,
we came up with a new idea.
And we needed somewords to describe it.
And we were never satisfied.
We were trying toidentify places
in a landscape and adrainage basin that
matter for stream flow, butthat are currently unmonitored.
There's no way to knowwhere they are now.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:29):
But they exist.
ERIC SMALL (22:30):
They exist.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:30):
You know they exist.
ERIC SMALL (22:32):
We know they exist from some satellite data.
But that's justsnapshots in time.
But we wanted to comeup with a name for them.
And we wanted to call-- wewere calling them hot spots
as we were writingthis proposal.
Hot spots is theworst name ever,
because we'retalking about snow.
So then, we werelike hot pockets.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:48):
No.
[LAUGHTER]
ERIC SMALL (22:51):
And then, I think we spent two days just
laughing about hot pockets.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:55):
Have you heard the Hot Pocket--
ERIC SMALL (22:56):
Yeah, and then we went to the-- we watched
all the Hot Pocket songs.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:59):
OK, good.
ERIC SMALL (22:59):
And we ended up just sticking with hot spots.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:02):
Do you tell your kids about your work?
Do you share?
Do they know about hot pockets.
ERIC SMALL (23:08):
They know a sliver.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:11):
OK.
ERIC SMALL (23:12):
Yes, and I try not to talk about science at home.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:18):
You talk about art at home.
ERIC SMALL (23:20):
I like to talk about art at home,
but I don't like totalk about work at home.
Partly because if I'm reallyinto it, if I'm really focused,
then I can't belike a normal human.
It's terrible.
The better-- for me--
ERIKA RANDALL: Because you've said (23:33):
undefined
that parenting really changedpart of the trajectory
of your scientisting.
ERIC SMALL (23:39):
Yeah, if I want the best Eric scientist,
it's probably the worstin-the-house human,
worst parent, because my brain,when I'm really into it, when
I'm into the project, or theproblem, or the challenge, then
it's like, stop,don't bother me.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:55):
Everything else is annoying.
ERIC SMALL (23:57):
Everything else is annoying,
because I have that-- thecycle is going on in my head.
And if it gets interrupted,I'll never get back.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:03):
No, so you can't even bring it home.
ERIC SMALL (24:06):
It's best not to bring it home.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:06):
It's best not to bring it home.
ERIC SMALL (24:07):
It's best just to be done with it and stop.
Yeah.
So I've tried--
ERIKA RANDALL (24:13):
And maybe you could
have gotten more grants, orfellowships, or nuh, nuh, nuh,
if you did never stop?
Or do you like that had to stop?
ERIC SMALL (24:20):
Oh, of course, I could have written more papers
and written more proposals.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:24):
Do you think it's made you
a better scientist to stopscientisting sometimes
and go home and talk about art?
ERIC SMALL (24:29):
Interesting.
ERIKA RANDALL: Instead of just of a-- (24:30):
undefined
you cut it off.
You stop it.
ERIC SMALL (24:33):
Well, in one way, it made me
a better scientistin that I don't
think I could have sustainablykept up that pace, where you
need to do something elseand you need to refresh,
and then you need tocome back and do it.
And going home or leavingthe office at home
and stopping and saying,oh, let's go play.
Let's go play the piano, orlet me make you a breakfast
(24:56):
sandwich, or let's make dinner.
You have a break, andthen you come back to it.
So there's thesustainability argument.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:04):
Yeah, I agree with that.
I think it's alsojust a turn of focus.
It's a differentkind of curiosity
that when I'm looking inwork, I'm looking at work,
I feel a different way orI'm looking and making,
I feel a different way thanwhen I go this other like,
oh, yeah, let's goplay in the sprinkler.
It's a-- I wouldn'tplay in the sprinkler.
I would just work.
And I think that even thoughI get exhausted parenting.
(25:24):
A lot of the time, thesustainability factor,
I don't think I wouldever stop working
if I didn't have anothertiny human that I
needed take care of.
ERIC SMALL (25:30):
A reason to stop.
A better reason to stop.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:32):
A better reason to stop.
So when-- I feel that waywhen I'm looking at paintings.
And I would dothis with my kiddo.
I would really standin front of a painting.
And I have a paintingI've stood in front
of for longer thanany other painting,
and it's the Joan of Arcpainting at the Met in New York.
And I just-- where you can getinto the layers of the paint.
And then you start to imaginethe brush, where you just--
(25:53):
and then you forgetabout the brush,
and then you're in the color,and then you're in the shade
of the color, and thenyou're in-- and it just--
[SIGHS] And most peoplewalk by the painting.
ERIC SMALL (26:02):
So for me--
ERIKA RANDALL (26:03):
Or they take a picture of the painting.
ERIC SMALL (26:05):
In my life, I've never had that experience
with a painting in a museum.
I've had that experience withsome lichen growing on a rock.
I've had that experience withsome grass, desert grasses
growing out of soil.
I've never been ableto replicate that
(26:26):
experience in a museum.
And I don't know ifit's the environment
and how the museumenvironment impacts me.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:31):
Yeah, maybe it's more self-conscious,
because there's folks that--
ERIC SMALL (26:33):
Or something about the other people
or that securityguard that's wondering
what my kid is about to doto the painting over there.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:38):
As they should.
ERIC SMALL (26:39):
As their job.
But I'm going to try that thenext time I have the chance.
I'm just going totake everyone away,
and I'm going tolook at the painting.
And I'm going to wait, andI'm going to try again.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:50):
And then try again.
And wait till youget bored with it.
ERIC SMALL (26:53):
Yes, and then try again.
I think that's why somepeople don't like jazz.
You have to do it, andthen just keep doing it.
And then you're like, wow,how did that just happen?
That can't just have happened.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:07):
But you got to stay in.
ERIC SMALL (27:08):
You got to stay in.
You got to keep trying.
Yeah, but I think maybefor what makes someone
a good scientist-- back towhy are you a good scientist?
Why are people successful?
It's they're able to get drawnin either to their lab work,
or their computer programming,or whatever it is.
And for them, they can getto those little brushstrokes
(27:29):
on the painting layer by layer.
And it's their spacewhere they're not bored.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:33):
And then they go in.
ERIC SMALL (27:35):
And they go in.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:36):
It's time to go into the quick and dirty.
ERIC SMALL (27:38):
Quick and dirty.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:39):
It's time.
ERIC SMALL (27:39):
Oh, I forgot about this.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:40):
I know.
Are you ready?
Are you-- you're going to win.
ERIC SMALL (27:43):
Anxiety has just risen.
My god, the quick and dirty.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:46):
I know.
I kind of already asked youthis just because, you know,
the Muppets.
But this is not about you.
This is-- do you havetwo favorite Muppets?
Go.
ERIC SMALL (27:56):
Fozzie Bear and Beaker.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:58):
Oh, my god, yes to Beaker!
Of course, Beaker.
You're a scientist.
That's hilarious.
OK.
I want you to give me the nameof a men's groundwater themed
cologne that needs to exist.
[LAUGHS] I forgotwe wrote this one,
then I was talking aboutthose scents earlier.
Come on.
Do it.
Something--
ERIC SMALL (28:16):
Must.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:17):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (28:20):
Must, like musty.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:21):
I know but and-- you have to have "and" in it.
Remember the rules?
I didn't tell you the rules.
I thought you knew,because you've
been a long-time listener,never before playing.
ERIC SMALL (28:28):
You give me so much credit for remembering things.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:30):
I know.
OK, here are the ruleson the quick and dirty.
You got to be quick.
You don't have to be dirty.
You got to say "and" or the wordhas to have "and" it like "sand"
and "must."
ERIC SMALL (28:39):
That would have been a much better answer.
Sand and Must.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:41):
Sand and Must.
ERIC SMALL (28:42):
Sand and Must.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:43):
I'd like to phone a friend, Erika.
Sand and Must.
I love playing this game.
OK, try it again, though.
A men's cologne fromthe smell of deep Earth.
ERIC SMALL (28:51):
Sand and Must.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:52):
[LAUGHS] Two things that
matter most as a parent?
ERIC SMALL (29:02):
Freedom and peace.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:10):
The title of your memoir.
ERIC SMALL (29:12):
Bureau of Reclamation and The Church.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:17):
Whoa.
[LAUGHTER]
That got-- now, I have awhole other set of questions.
OK.
The snacks that you have in yourpack when you are in a snow pit.
ERIC SMALL (29:30):
Well, I want to say Pecan Sandies, but no.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:33):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (29:34):
No, chocolate-covered espresso beans
and a protein bar.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:40):
Love.
OK, so you know thatI hate you for getting
to go to the T-Swift concert.
So the first thingsyou thought when
you walked intothe arena in Vegas
for the T-Swift concert,the first two things.
What was your-- [CHUCKLES]
ERIC SMALL (29:58):
Big and loud.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:05):
A lot of screaming.
ERIC SMALL (30:07):
But we got in a little bit early.
So it was kind of inthis awkward moment
when the opening act was--
ERIKA RANDALL (30:13):
Who was the opening act?
ERIC SMALL (30:15):
I don't remember now.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:17):
It's too bad, because we were all
excited for T-Swift.
Your jazz band name.
ERIC SMALL (30:24):
Wilson and Friends.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:27):
Is that legit, real?
Or did you just make that up?
ERIC SMALL (30:30):
I just made it up.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:31):
You just said it like
it really was your band name.
ERIC SMALL (30:33):
Yeah, but it totally is in my mind.
Yeah, so Wilson, heplays the upright bass.
Unfortunately, that'sonly in my mind,
because Wilson is a20-pound Havanese dog.
He's more of aMuppet than me, but I
can picture himleaning over the bass
and just-- it's justhis personality.
He would just lay down that bassline, and it would be going.
(30:55):
And it just wouldhave that feel.
So Wilson and Friends, and thenother people would be playing.
But I just--
I can just picture it.
I can see it.
Wilson and Friends.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:05):
You need to draw that.
OK.
ERIC SMALL (31:06):
I have drawn it.
ERIKA RANDALL: You have drawn it? (31:07):
undefined
ERIC SMALL (31:08):
I've had computers draw it for me.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:10):
You've had-- no, I love--
ERIC SMALL (31:11):
Yes, and I will send you
the picture of Wilsonplaying the upright bass
and Rachel, older daughter,playing the tenor saxophone
as envisioned by ChatGPT.
It's amazing.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:20):
It's amazing.
ERIC SMALL (31:20):
For a birthday card.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:21):
It's amazing.
All right, you're goingto give a blessing.
You're going to sendsomeone off into the world.
It could be a kid.
It could be a graduating class.
It could be someoneon an expedition.
And I wish for you [INAUDIBLE].
Go.
ERIC SMALL (31:40):
The space, and time, and freedom
to explore what excites youthe most without the pressures
of everyone saying this, andthat, and this, and that.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:59):
I want that.
ERIC SMALL (32:00):
It would be great.
ERIKA RANDALL (32:01):
It would be great.
ERIC SMALL (32:02):
Is that what retirement is?
[CHUCKLES] I don't think so.
[LAUGHS]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ERIKA RANDALL (32:09):
That was Eric Small, Professor
of Earth Sciences at CUBoulder on The Ampersand.
For more on Eric's research,creative work, and things
not boring, see our show notes.
The Ampersand is aproduction of the College
of Arts and Sciences at theUniversity of Colorado, Boulder.
It is written and producedby me, Erika Randall
(32:30):
and Tim Grassley.
If there are peopleyou'd like us
to interview on TheAmpersand, do please email
us at asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker.
And the episodes are recordedat Interplay Recording
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall.
And this is The Ampersand.
(32:50):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[CLANKING]
(00:02):
ERIKA RANDALL (00:03):
A and S.
[CLANKING, CHIMING]
[THE MUPPETS, "THE MUPPET SHOWTHEME"] It's time to play
the music
I imagine walking onto the set of The Muppet
Show, CU Boulder Editionand stopping in my tracks
at the sight of Eric Small,transformed into a Jim Henson
Muppet.
(00:23):
His arms flail andhis mouth opens
wide to the Colorado sky inan explosion of excitement
and laughter.
As he settles, I imagineMuppet Eric ducks out of camera
and jumps back as his humanself just as joyful and ready
to move into action.
Dearest ANDers, Iknow many of you
want to wish this version ofThe Muppet Show into being,
but have hope.
Eric Small, while verymuch a real human,
(00:46):
might if you look with the rightframe, in fact, be a Muppet.
KERMIT (00:51):
--The Muppet Show, voted the best
show in the world out of allthe shows hosted by frogs.
[LAUGHTER]
But first, an opening number.
ERIKA RANDALL (01:03):
I can't imagine, Eric happier than deep in a snow
hole outside of Crested Butte.
On today's episode, Eric divesinto his hydrology research,
his love of visual art,performing music, parenting,
and a word I'm now obsessedwith, "ground truthing."
In our conversation, Eric notonly elaborates on what "ground
truthing" means, but why thistruthing of the ground matters
(01:24):
to our water systems.
He also helps usvividly experience
his science andthe way the Earth
smells when you firststrike dirt under the snow.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
On The Ampersand, we callthis bringing together
of the impossible, the"alchemy of ANDing."
Together, we'll hear stories ofhumans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
(01:46):
Rather than thinking of "and"as a simple conjunction and that
Conjunction Junctionkind of way,
we will hear stories of peoplewho see "and" as a verb,
a way to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally "let
the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves."
As St. Mary Oliver asks, "Whatis it you plan to do with
your one wild andprecious life?"
Oh, I love this question.
(02:08):
When I'm mothering,creating, and collaborating,
it reminds me toreplace a singular
idea of what I think I shouldbecome with a full sensory verb
about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall.
And this is Eric Smallon The Ampersand.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ERIC SMALL (02:31):
The one time I did get caught-- so here
is the trick.
In my house, where I grewup, it was an older house.
ERIKA RANDALL (02:36):
In New York.
Not the city.
ERIC SMALL (02:38):
No, no.
In the suburbs.
You'd have to climba flight of stairs
to get up to the bedrooms.
And my parents' bedroom wasat the top of the stairs.
And the stairs were creaky.
And you'd stand on--
you kind of knewwhere you could stand.
But still, there was no wayto make it up these stairs
without, like, creak, creak.
ERIKA RANDALL (02:53):
You're getting busted.
ERIC SMALL (02:53):
You're getting busted.
Luckily, my father was a snorer,so I would wait for the--
[SNORES], and then I would step.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:00):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (03:01):
But the problem was, he was not a rhythmic snorer.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:04):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (03:05):
So you'd have to be on one
leg ready to step on theother, and you'd wait for the--
[SNORES], and then you'd step.
And so I would use this to getback into the house at 1:00 AM
or 2:00 AM, whatever it took.
And I did get caughtonce when I went out
the side door at midnight.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:20):
Who were you visiting?
ERIC SMALL (03:21):
Her first name was Sherry.
I can't remember herlast name right now.
She was my highschool girlfriend.
Yeah, it was a long time ago.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:26):
Well, we're just going to leave Sherry.
It's not that youdon't remember,
but just to protectthe innocent.
We're going to leave Sherry's--
ERIC SMALL (03:32):
I was the innocent.
Thank you very much.
Someone shouldhave protected me.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:36):
Sherry from the block.
ERIC SMALL (03:37):
Yeah, right.
So I snuck out.
And when I came back in,the dog had gotten out,
because the screendoor hadn't latched.
ERIKA RANDALL (03:43):
Oh, the dog totally screwed you.
ERIC SMALL (03:43):
And he howled from--
he did.
He screwed me.
Instead of screwing thepooch, the pooch screwed me.
And from threeblocks away, this dog
never barked at anyoneever in his whole life,
except that one night.
Three blocks away-- [HOWLS].
And I'm getting closer.
I'm like, oh, god.
And I finally-- I get to thehouse and I grabbed the dog.
And my mothercomes out, I think.
And I was like, didyou hear him barking?
She's like, yeah.
(04:04):
And I was like, well,I came out to get him.
I don't know how he got out.
And she's like,why are you dressed
if you just-- dun, dun, dun,and I was caught with this.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:11):
Yeah, the bottle cap.
ERIC SMALL (04:12):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:12):
But it was a dog that busted you in that moment.
ERIC SMALL (04:14):
The dog busted me, yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:16):
But you have a dog now.
Is that why?
ERIC SMALL (04:17):
I do.
I do.
Well, it's a very different dog.
The current dog is more oftherapy, warm pillow like thing.
He's halfway betweenanimal and stuffed animal.
And--
ERIKA RANDALL (04:31):
Is he like a Muppet?
ERIC SMALL (04:32):
He's very much like a Muppet.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:34):
OK, did you pick him
because you're like a Muppet?
You know I think thatyou are such a Muppet.
I can't even get over it.
I really wish that peoplelistening could just
see everything aboutyour facial expressions.
You were doing a really good jobkeeping your arms under wraps.
But usually, it's like this bah!
Explosion.
ERIC SMALL (04:48):
Well, that's because this microphone is
in front of me.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:50):
I know, because we're in a tiny house.
ERIC SMALL (04:51):
We're in a tiny house.
But you could fitnine of us in here.
ERIKA RANDALL (04:53):
OK, Muppet.
So in your Fozzie-nessis that because of your--
like, there's a play in you?
Like, there a playfulness thathelps drive your questioning
or is your questioning separatefrom that kind of light
playfulness thatI love about you?
ERIC SMALL (05:07):
Well, I can't not be playful.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:08):
You can't not be?
ERIC SMALL (05:09):
How could I not be playful?
ERIKA RANDALL (05:10):
Well, because the planet is dying
and you study things that letus know the water is drying up
in the world andthat you let us--
like, you have access to datathat says it's getting hard out
there for a bear.
ERIC SMALL (05:24):
It is getting hard out there for some bears.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:27):
For some bears.
ERIC SMALL (05:27):
But for other bears, it might be getting easier.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:29):
See what you just did there?
That's what I'm saying.
You have this ability to see--
I don't know if it'sbalance or-- it's dimension,
like, to see thingsfrom a complex space.
ERIC SMALL (05:40):
The answers aren't simple.
ERIKA RANDALL: They're not yes or no. (05:42):
undefined
ERIC SMALL (05:43):
They're not yes or no.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:44):
No.
ERIC SMALL (05:44):
And any time you pose the question
as a yes or noanswer, it will fail.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:50):
Yeah.
ERIC SMALL (05:50):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (05:51):
So is that the way
that you ask questionsthat are more open-ended
and that can take you anywhere?
Do you think that's whyyou went into science
or do you think that sciencefound you because of--
talk to me.
ERIC SMALL (06:03):
I think science found me, because my--
that was not my vision.
My vision was not science.
My vision was mostdefinitely not science.
My vision was music.
And I was steeredtowards science.
And I think I justhad skills that
allowed me to excel in sciencemore than I would have,
(06:24):
perhaps, in music or art.
ERIKA RANDALL (06:26):
Who steered you?
ERIC SMALL (06:27):
I would say first my parents.
And I feel that the pathI took worked well given
my personality and my skills.
And I don't know that wasthe case for my brothers.
ERIKA RANDALL (06:40):
But you all were competitive around music,
around sports, around--
ERIC SMALL (06:44):
Yeah, around everything.
Everything.
What would we not havebeen competitive around?
So, for example, when wewould bring pizza home--
ERIKA RANDALL (06:50):
I was going to say food.
I was just about to say, wereyou competitive about food?
ERIC SMALL (06:53):
The rule was you had to finish your piece of pizza
before you couldtake the next one.
But everyone was always eyeingwhat's the next best piece?
And you couldn'treach-- you could only
take from the empty places.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:04):
What defines-- is it the most slices of pepperoni?
Is it more cheese orthe bubble in the crust?
ERIC SMALL (07:08):
I don't think it was the bubble in the crust.
I think it was probablythe sausage on the pizza
or the size of the slice.
And we just hadthis unspoken rule
that you would never takea piece from the inside.
You'd have to take oneof the next pieces.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:19):
Oh, my god, it was a game.
It was--
ERIC SMALL (07:21):
So if one of the next pieces
was small orundesirable somehow,
ERIKA RANDALL (07:24):
You would go slower.
ERIC SMALL (07:25):
You would go slower.
But if the next piece wasgood, you would go faster.
ERIKA RANDALL: This is exhausting. (07:29):
undefined
ERIC SMALL (07:30):
Well, this was what we did.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:32):
This is what you did.
What did your mother do?
ERIC SMALL (07:34):
She rolled with it.
She was-- she would roll.
She did not micromanage that.
She did not micromanage a lot.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:41):
Except for your career from arts.
ERIC SMALL (07:42):
Well.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:42):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (07:44):
I think that was--
[CHUCKLES] That wasn'ta lot of micromanaging.
And I think thathad to be the case.
Can you imagine having-- myyounger brother was a fair bit
younger, but two teenageboys in high school--
rawr, you know?
Like, full on.
And you just got tojust roll with it.
And a big golden retriever.
And yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:01):
Your brother was a big golden retriever?
ERIC SMALL (08:02):
Yeah, right.
He was the-- yeah.
[CHUCKLES]
ERIKA RANDALL (08:04):
That was his Muppet identity.
OK.
When I was reading yourabstract for Nature--
is that what you were writing?
ERIC SMALL (08:10):
Oh, that one.
Yes, yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:12):
I was reading about it.
And I had been reading itother things on the internet
around snow density and about--
there was an acronymI was going to try
to remember aboutwater-to-snow exchange rate.
E--
ERIC SMALL (08:23):
SWE.
S-W-E.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:24):
SWE, S-W-E.
ERIC SMALL (08:25):
Yep, Snow Water Equivalent.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:26):
Snow Water--
So I was workingon, I was learning--
and you know I love language.
And I'm readingall this language.
And I'm getting really curious.
And it does not make mewant to go in a snow hole
and measure and dothe ground truthing
of what is the actualdata, compare it
to the satellite data.
It does not make me want tosit with those charts that
were in that.
ERIC SMALL (08:45):
But that's the--
ERIKA RANDALL (08:46):
But I got real curious,
and I got really excited, and Iwanted to talk to you about it.
But I was like, no,see, not a scientist.
ERIC SMALL (08:54):
But there's two axes--
there's many axes, butthere's two primary axes.
One is this ability to thinkand get interested and look
at it from different angles.
And the other, which I'mnot necessarily good at,
is the personality trait ofcarefully making measurements
over and over again.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:14):
Nope.
ERIC SMALL (09:14):
That for me is a struggle.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:16):
I don't put lids on things.
I don't fill thecoffee up the same--
my wife is always like, really?
It says six.
ERIC SMALL (09:24):
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (09:24):
You have to fill it to the--
I'm always like, meh, it's good.
ERIC SMALL (09:27):
So you could not want
to go and dig asnow hole, snow pit
and make all the measurements.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:32):
I don't want to do that.
ERIC SMALL (09:32):
But in a minute, I'm going
to try to convince you thatyou do want to do that.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:35):
I can't wait for that.
Is that time hereyet or, no, really?
ERIC SMALL (09:38):
No, it's in a second.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:39):
It's in a second.
ERIC SMALL (09:39):
Because some scientists
are amazing at carefullycollecting the data.
Every little detailis being checked.
And they just keep progressingthrough the planned research.
And at the end, they'veamassed this data set,
that if designedoriginally ahead of time,
will reveal some of answerthat no one had before.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:59):
Amazing.
That's kind ofyour "ish" to that.
ERIC SMALL (10:03):
I can force myself to do it when necessary.
And as a grad student,I had to do that.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:08):
You had to do that.
ERIC SMALL (10:08):
I had to do that, because no one
else was going to do it.
That was my job.
And now, as someonewho's progressed
through my career,most of the time,
I'm not looking at theindividual trees in the forest.
And the grad students are orsome of my collaborators are.
ERIKA RANDALL: But you've sent me (10:25):
undefined
a pictures from the snow hole.
ERIC SMALL (10:26):
Oh, I'll go and do that.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:27):
OK.
ERIC SMALL (10:28):
But I don't go to do it
because I despisedigging the snow pit
and making the measurements.
But when you're out there, it'slike a very different experience
than you could havedoing anything else.
Because you are there all day.
You cannot leave until you'redone, regardless of the weather,
regardless of ifyou're tired or hungry.
(10:48):
And the sun is movingacross the sky.
The weather is changing.
And you just experienceit in a different way
than you ever would ifyou just wanted to visit
the same place as a tourist.
As a tourist, you'd ski on upthere or snowshoe up there.
You'd have your snack.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:04):
You'd snap a picture.
It'd be like, this is whatthis place looks like, period.
ERIC SMALL (11:07):
Yeah, let's--
ERIKA RANDALL (11:08):
[INAUDIBLE]
ERIC SMALL (11:08):
You're right.
But it looksdifferent in an hour,
and then it really looksdifferent in three hours.
And then, the otherthing what we get to do
is we get to go to thebottom of that snow pit
and smell the forest floor.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:18):
[SIGHS]
ERIC SMALL (11:18):
And the thing is because it's
been blanketed bysnow for months,
so it's this like concentrate--it's like an aged wine.
You pull off the cork,which is the snow,
and you're like, [DEEP SNIFF].
Every snow pitsmells differently.
If you're in a forest, itsmells different than a meadow.
Yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:34):
See, now I-- in my head,
what do you think I see?
Because I'm doing something.
ERIC SMALL (11:38):
You see one of the Muppets
at the bottom of a snow pit.
[LAUGHTER]
ERIKA RANDALL (11:42):
No, because that would
be like, [ANIMATED BABBLE].
But, no, I have theseperfect different glass
vials with corks with the nameof Mountain nuh, nuh, nuh.
Like, I have a-- then, Ihave Prairie nuh, nuh, nuh.
I have Deep Aspen nuh, nuh, nuh.
It's like cologne names.
That's where I am.
I'm like already--I'm branding it.
I'm naming it.
(12:03):
I'm selling.
It's on in the--
ERIC SMALL (12:05):
Sounds great.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:06):
That's where my brain goes.
OK, your brain says, digthe snow pit, get the huff,
get the data, zoom backout, learn the thing,
save the planet,make sure there's
going to be enough water.
ERIC SMALL (12:17):
Sure.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:17):
Well, what does your brain do?
Can you--
ERIC SMALL (12:19):
What does my brain do?
ERIKA RANDALL (12:20):
And then, it's like almost a minute,
and you're going to convince me.
ERIC SMALL (12:22):
What my brain does is say,
in order for thegraduate students
to have a complete experienceand for the undergraduates
to have a completeexperience, they
must go out, and dig asnow pit, and actually
put their fingers in thesnow and experience it
at the different levels,and make the temperature
measurements and the watercontent measurements,
and then they haveto do it again.
Because once you do it again,and again, and again, you
(12:44):
see how variable it isand how challenging it
is to take all thatstuff in nature
and try to summarize it inyour scientific results,
and then writeabout it in a paper.
So personally, I don't needto go dig another snow pit.
I've smelled the forest floor.
I like the smell ofthe forest floor.
I can always goback and smell more.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:04):
You can always go back.
ERIC SMALL (13:04):
Yes, I could go back for that.
And I could go backfor the long day.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:08):
You like the long day.
ERIC SMALL (13:10):
I like the long day with the colleagues,
with the students,with the friends,
with the light changing,with the weather changing.
I like the removalfrom society otherwise.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:22):
You don't get distracted when you're there.
You're not thinking--
ERIC SMALL (13:25):
Much less distracted.
At one of our primary researchsites when we started,
there was no cellphone coverage.
And it was great.
You just turned your phone offand you would just work all day.
And the time changed.
The way you experience timeand everything changed.
And then at the end of theday, you'd get back to the car,
and you'd put your phone on,and be like, oh, OK, Erika, she
texted me.
[CHUCKLES] And youhave texted me.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:47):
And I have texted you
when you come back from that.
ERIC SMALL (13:49):
And now, of course, they
keep putting upmore cell towers.
And you get more-- so itchanges the experience.
You have to go furtheraway or get deeper
into the snow pit or something.
But that's part of it, too.
It's just a change inhow you spend a day.
They're the longest days.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:02):
But good long.
ERIC SMALL (14:03):
Oh, good long.
Well, and bad long.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:04):
And hard long.
ERIC SMALL (14:05):
Hard long, and bad long, and good long,
and memorable.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:08):
And that is my favorite new word
that I said, oh, Eric, isthis ground truthing, right?
Not everyone knows it.
Can you, for our listeners,just talk about that.
Because I know it has alot of different contexts.
ERIC SMALL (14:19):
It does have a lot of different contexts.
So one context would begoing out into the field
to a remote site, a localsite, and making measurements
on the ground.
And these should be themost reliable measurements,
because you are there.
And what you're doing isyou're ground truthing,
a measurement that would be madefrom space or from an airplane.
So you put some of sensor onan airplane or on a satellite.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:42):
So there's a context.
ERIC SMALL (14:43):
Yeah, and you're making a measurement.
But that measurement isvery indirect, right?
And someone has takenthat measurement, which
could be like a radiance, ameasurement of brightness,
and they've turnedit into something
like physically meaningfulin hydrology or geology,
like Snow Water Equivalent.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:59):
Yes, SWE.
ERIC SMALL: [CHUCKLES] There were (15:01):
undefined
many steps betweenthat satellite
measurement and thefinal physical parameter
that you care about.
So the ground truthingis going out there
and making the measurementthat's most closely related
to that physical parameter.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:14):
So that human practice
is still the most reliable.
ERIC SMALL (15:16):
Yeah.
Well, it should be.
It should be.
But there are challengeswhen you do that.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:20):
Yeah, when there's ground fibbing.
ERIC SMALL (15:22):
Yeah.
[CHUCKLES] Ground fibbing.
You have to choose the spotwhere you're going to measure.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:26):
Yeah, yeah.
ERIC SMALL (15:27):
Every spot is different.
So you have tochoose enough spots.
You have to choose them inan objective fashion, right?
It's often very difficultto get to the spots
you've planned when you werelooking at the computer screen.
And you're like, oh, wehave to go over there.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:40):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (15:41):
Oh, no, my snow shoe is already falling off.
And I'm hungry.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:44):
It's like how people ended up in Colorado
instead of California.
ERIC SMALL (15:48):
Yeah, they're like, this is good enough.
We can't-- we're not goingover any more mountains.
Yeah, yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:52):
When you--
so you got into science,but then you're really
into snow and water, right?
How did that become--
was it because you had a mentor?
What got you intothat part of the--
ERIC SMALL (16:07):
So it was a circuitous path.
And when I started, therewere people I was working with
and they were doingcertain things.
I was like, that's cool.
Let me look into this.
And then--
ERIKA RANDALL (16:16):
This was graduate school or?
ERIC SMALL (16:17):
This was graduate school.
And that overlapped with someother things, where I was like,
oh, these people aredoing something different.
Let me study that for a while.
And then, I wasworking with a new set
of colleagues and studentsand studying climate.
And I was like, thisis really fascinating.
And then as I movedto become a professor,
I first studied ecosystemsand soil, and water and soil,
(16:39):
and then that transitioned intostudying snow and snow melt
and stream flow.
So it's just been onething connects to the next.
The hydrologiccycle, at some point,
I will have beena water molecule
and gone all the way around.
I haven't studiedthe ocean very much.
And I think maybe as it ends,I will flow to the ocean
(17:02):
and just be part of it all.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:04):
Oh, I hope so for all of us.
OK, is it time nowfor you to convince me
about how the other--the thing you were
going to convince me of it.
You said it was onlya minute, but we just
talked for four and half, thatyou were going to convince me
that I could be a scientist.
ERIC SMALL (17:17):
I was going to convince you that you
should go to a snow pit.
[LAUGHTER]
No, no.
Not that you shouldbe a scientist.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:22):
OK, good.
ERIC SMALL (17:23):
No, no, no.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:24):
That's not going to happen.
ERIC SMALL (17:24):
You shouldn't be a scientist.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:25):
But I should--
I'll go to a snow pit.
ERIC SMALL (17:26):
You should at some point.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:27):
I'll come to a snow pit.
ERIC SMALL (17:28):
Yeah, they're not hard to get to.
And they're fun to dig.
Do you like digging?
ERIKA RANDALL (17:31):
I do like digging.
ERIC SMALL (17:32):
I love digging.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:33):
Yeah, I've dug--
I have with my wife dug thesame hole twice for a tree.
And it was frustratingthe second time,
because we realized the firsthole was too close to the house.
So digging the same hole twice,you do that all the time.
ERIC SMALL (17:46):
So each year, when we're
done with our season, whichusually is four or five visits,
each visit to the siteis like two to two
and half days with 6 toeight people full days.
At the end of theseason, we have
removed from thesepits a mass of snow
that's equal to aboutfour or five blue whales.
(18:07):
I know.
Picture a blue whale.
Can you?
ERIKA RANDALL (18:09):
I am.
ERIC SMALL (18:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not volume.
This is the massof the blue whale.
But we have all season to do it.
And then, whenafter you've made--
ERIKA RANDALL (18:17):
But you don't tell them before you start,
you're about to--
ERIC SMALL (18:20):
Move a bunch of blue whales off this mountain.
Well, if you're smart--
ERIKA RANDALL (18:24):
You don't start with that, do you?
Because I'd be like, nope.
I am not going to movean ocean of snow whales.
ERIC SMALL (18:30):
Exactly.
We do.
At the end, we say, wow, wereally dug a lot of pits.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:33):
Yeah.
ERIC SMALL (18:34):
Yeah, in this ground truthing,
because we can'tjust dig one pit.
Because when you dig that nextpit, you get a different answer.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:39):
You get a different answer.
So you need to getenough different answers.
ERIC SMALL (18:41):
Right, and we try to stick to our design
that we set up years ago--
keep it consistent, keepmaking measurements.
And if we do thatenough, the answers
are revealed or, atleast, the best answer
you can come up with.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:54):
The best answer you can come up with.
And this is what Ilove about the way
that I'm understandingyour research as well.
Is that the best answerfor x amount of dollars.
OK, this is what kind of blewmy mind about your research.
And I want you to sayit in the right way,
because I'm thinkingabout this--
your abstract that I read.
And I had neverimagined, and this
has come up in a coupleof other interviews
(19:15):
with scientists, howimportant money is.
[LAUGHTER]
ERIC SMALL (19:20):
Well, let me tell you, Erika.
Last night, I waswriting a proposal
to the Bureau of Reclamationwith one of my colleagues.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:27):
The Bureau of Reclamation
is also-- you'vetold me this before.
You have so manypotential memoir titles.
And the "Bureau of Reclamation"is one of my favorite ones.
ERIC SMALL (19:35):
And it's funny, because on my way
to the studio here, I drove pastthe Reclamation Church, which
is like a mile tothe east of here.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:41):
See, the Bureau of Reclamation.
That's a band name, too, dude.
ERIC SMALL (19:45):
The Bureuau of Reclamation.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:46):
Yeah, OK.
So meanwhile, back at theBureau of Reclamation.
ERIC SMALL (19:48):
It is about the dollars.
Because you needto convince someone
who works for thefederal government,
usually, that the workyou're going to do
will provide the best answersfor the amount of money
that they're spending.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:04):
That's right.
ERIC SMALL (20:05):
Yeah, it's got to have value.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:07):
It's got to have value.
ERIC SMALL (20:07):
Yep.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:08):
And so the--
I think a lot of ourlisteners are like, how
do you two know each other?
[LAUGHTER]
And this whole thing aboutwhat is the best answer
for this amount of money.
That is how we know each other.
We really--
ERIC SMALL (20:23):
That is how we know each other.
What is the best answer--
ERIKA RANDALL: What is the best-- (20:26):
undefined
ERIC SMALL (20:27):
--for this amount of money?
ERIKA RANDALL (20:28):
--for this amount of money.
This is why you're my guy.
ERIC SMALL (20:30):
But isn't that always the question?
ERIKA RANDALL (20:32):
No, it's not.
Because some people, whatis the best answer for me?
What is the best answerfor this population?
Period.
And they don't go foran extra parameter.
I love a little friction, right?
I love it.
It helps me think better.
It helps me getactually out of what
is the answer I wish could be orwhat is the best possible thing
ever.
No, I want it tohave a little more.
(20:53):
And you operate like that.
ERIC SMALL (20:54):
Well, you've got to be practical.
You have to be pragmatic.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:57):
Yeah, I've never called
myself pragmatic or practical.
But I--
ERIC SMALL (21:00):
Oh, you're very--
oh, Erika.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:02):
I know, but I've never used that word.
So I--
ERIC SMALL (21:05):
Pragmatism.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:06):
I know.
I think I got a lot of it.
ERIC SMALL (21:07):
Yeah, you have to in your position.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:10):
And it just-- so even in the land of dance,
I can't just go, oh, Iwant to make a piece about,
because you have $2.
So I want to make apiece about for $2.
And so I think actuallythat has helped me
as an administrator make reallyhard decisions, because I
understand I'm making shapeslike a tight little box
with my hand.
And you do this really well.
(21:31):
And that's what you research.
You have to do it inyour research, too.
ERIC SMALL (21:34):
In the dance world, aren't
you implicitly being pragmaticabout the human body?
Don't you have tosay, well, I would
love to do something that--
ERIKA RANDALL (21:44):
But gravity.
ERIC SMALL (21:45):
But there's gravity.
And there's the human body.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:47):
Yeah, but that's when go,
no, OK, then I can't fly.
I can learn how todo four pirouettes
and use that sense of--
ERIC SMALL (21:55):
And that's what we do when we're writing a proposal
or doing the science.
It's like, well,we can't do that,
because that's not practicalgiven reasonable budgets.
But let's do this, whichis really darn cool.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:06):
Which is really darn cool as well.
ERIC SMALL (22:08):
So in this proposal for the Bureau of Reclamation,
we came up with a new idea.
And we needed somewords to describe it.
And we were never satisfied.
We were trying toidentify places
in a landscape and adrainage basin that
matter for stream flow, butthat are currently unmonitored.
There's no way to knowwhere they are now.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:29):
But they exist.
ERIC SMALL (22:30):
They exist.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:30):
You know they exist.
ERIC SMALL (22:32):
We know they exist from some satellite data.
But that's justsnapshots in time.
But we wanted to comeup with a name for them.
And we wanted to call-- wewere calling them hot spots
as we were writingthis proposal.
Hot spots is theworst name ever,
because we'retalking about snow.
So then, we werelike hot pockets.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:48):
No.
[LAUGHTER]
ERIC SMALL (22:51):
And then, I think we spent two days just
laughing about hot pockets.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:55):
Have you heard the Hot Pocket--
ERIC SMALL (22:56):
Yeah, and then we went to the-- we watched
all the Hot Pocket songs.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (22:59):
OK, good.
ERIC SMALL (22:59):
And we ended up just sticking with hot spots.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:02):
Do you tell your kids about your work?
Do you share?
Do they know about hot pockets.
ERIC SMALL (23:08):
They know a sliver.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:11):
OK.
ERIC SMALL (23:12):
Yes, and I try not to talk about science at home.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:18):
You talk about art at home.
ERIC SMALL (23:20):
I like to talk about art at home,
but I don't like totalk about work at home.
Partly because if I'm reallyinto it, if I'm really focused,
then I can't belike a normal human.
It's terrible.
The better-- for me--
ERIKA RANDALL: Because you've said (23:33):
undefined
that parenting really changedpart of the trajectory
of your scientisting.
ERIC SMALL (23:39):
Yeah, if I want the best Eric scientist,
it's probably the worstin-the-house human,
worst parent, because my brain,when I'm really into it, when
I'm into the project, or theproblem, or the challenge, then
it's like, stop,don't bother me.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:55):
Everything else is annoying.
ERIC SMALL (23:57):
Everything else is annoying,
because I have that-- thecycle is going on in my head.
And if it gets interrupted,I'll never get back.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:03):
No, so you can't even bring it home.
ERIC SMALL (24:06):
It's best not to bring it home.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:06):
It's best not to bring it home.
ERIC SMALL (24:07):
It's best just to be done with it and stop.
Yeah.
So I've tried--
ERIKA RANDALL (24:13):
And maybe you could
have gotten more grants, orfellowships, or nuh, nuh, nuh,
if you did never stop?
Or do you like that had to stop?
ERIC SMALL (24:20):
Oh, of course, I could have written more papers
and written more proposals.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:24):
Do you think it's made you
a better scientist to stopscientisting sometimes
and go home and talk about art?
ERIC SMALL (24:29):
Interesting.
ERIKA RANDALL: Instead of just of a-- (24:30):
undefined
you cut it off.
You stop it.
ERIC SMALL (24:33):
Well, in one way, it made me
a better scientistin that I don't
think I could have sustainablykept up that pace, where you
need to do something elseand you need to refresh,
and then you need tocome back and do it.
And going home or leavingthe office at home
and stopping and saying,oh, let's go play.
Let's go play the piano, orlet me make you a breakfast
(24:56):
sandwich, or let's make dinner.
You have a break, andthen you come back to it.
So there's thesustainability argument.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:04):
Yeah, I agree with that.
I think it's alsojust a turn of focus.
It's a differentkind of curiosity
that when I'm looking inwork, I'm looking at work,
I feel a different way orI'm looking and making,
I feel a different way thanwhen I go this other like,
oh, yeah, let's goplay in the sprinkler.
It's a-- I wouldn'tplay in the sprinkler.
I would just work.
And I think that even thoughI get exhausted parenting.
(25:24):
A lot of the time, thesustainability factor,
I don't think I wouldever stop working
if I didn't have anothertiny human that I
needed take care of.
ERIC SMALL (25:30):
A reason to stop.
A better reason to stop.
ERIKA RANDALL (25:32):
A better reason to stop.
So when-- I feel that waywhen I'm looking at paintings.
And I would dothis with my kiddo.
I would really standin front of a painting.
And I have a paintingI've stood in front
of for longer thanany other painting,
and it's the Joan of Arcpainting at the Met in New York.
And I just-- where you can getinto the layers of the paint.
And then you start to imaginethe brush, where you just--
(25:53):
and then you forgetabout the brush,
and then you're in the color,and then you're in the shade
of the color, and thenyou're in-- and it just--
[SIGHS] And most peoplewalk by the painting.
ERIC SMALL (26:02):
So for me--
ERIKA RANDALL (26:03):
Or they take a picture of the painting.
ERIC SMALL (26:05):
In my life, I've never had that experience
with a painting in a museum.
I've had that experience withsome lichen growing on a rock.
I've had that experience withsome grass, desert grasses
growing out of soil.
I've never been ableto replicate that
(26:26):
experience in a museum.
And I don't know ifit's the environment
and how the museumenvironment impacts me.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:31):
Yeah, maybe it's more self-conscious,
because there's folks that--
ERIC SMALL (26:33):
Or something about the other people
or that securityguard that's wondering
what my kid is about to doto the painting over there.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:38):
As they should.
ERIC SMALL (26:39):
As their job.
But I'm going to try that thenext time I have the chance.
I'm just going totake everyone away,
and I'm going tolook at the painting.
And I'm going to wait, andI'm going to try again.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:50):
And then try again.
And wait till youget bored with it.
ERIC SMALL (26:53):
Yes, and then try again.
I think that's why somepeople don't like jazz.
You have to do it, andthen just keep doing it.
And then you're like, wow,how did that just happen?
That can't just have happened.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:07):
But you got to stay in.
ERIC SMALL (27:08):
You got to stay in.
You got to keep trying.
Yeah, but I think maybefor what makes someone
a good scientist-- back towhy are you a good scientist?
Why are people successful?
It's they're able to get drawnin either to their lab work,
or their computer programming,or whatever it is.
And for them, they can getto those little brushstrokes
(27:29):
on the painting layer by layer.
And it's their spacewhere they're not bored.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:33):
And then they go in.
ERIC SMALL (27:35):
And they go in.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:36):
It's time to go into the quick and dirty.
ERIC SMALL (27:38):
Quick and dirty.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:39):
It's time.
ERIC SMALL (27:39):
Oh, I forgot about this.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:40):
I know.
Are you ready?
Are you-- you're going to win.
ERIC SMALL (27:43):
Anxiety has just risen.
My god, the quick and dirty.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:46):
I know.
I kind of already asked youthis just because, you know,
the Muppets.
But this is not about you.
This is-- do you havetwo favorite Muppets?
Go.
ERIC SMALL (27:56):
Fozzie Bear and Beaker.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:58):
Oh, my god, yes to Beaker!
Of course, Beaker.
You're a scientist.
That's hilarious.
OK.
I want you to give me the nameof a men's groundwater themed
cologne that needs to exist.
[LAUGHS] I forgotwe wrote this one,
then I was talking aboutthose scents earlier.
Come on.
Do it.
Something--
ERIC SMALL (28:16):
Must.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:17):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (28:20):
Must, like musty.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:21):
I know but and-- you have to have "and" in it.
Remember the rules?
I didn't tell you the rules.
I thought you knew,because you've
been a long-time listener,never before playing.
ERIC SMALL (28:28):
You give me so much credit for remembering things.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:30):
I know.
OK, here are the ruleson the quick and dirty.
You got to be quick.
You don't have to be dirty.
You got to say "and" or the wordhas to have "and" it like "sand"
and "must."
ERIC SMALL (28:39):
That would have been a much better answer.
Sand and Must.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:41):
Sand and Must.
ERIC SMALL (28:42):
Sand and Must.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:43):
I'd like to phone a friend, Erika.
Sand and Must.
I love playing this game.
OK, try it again, though.
A men's cologne fromthe smell of deep Earth.
ERIC SMALL (28:51):
Sand and Must.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:52):
[LAUGHS] Two things that
matter most as a parent?
ERIC SMALL (29:02):
Freedom and peace.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:10):
The title of your memoir.
ERIC SMALL (29:12):
Bureau of Reclamation and The Church.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:17):
Whoa.
[LAUGHTER]
That got-- now, I have awhole other set of questions.
OK.
The snacks that you have in yourpack when you are in a snow pit.
ERIC SMALL (29:30):
Well, I want to say Pecan Sandies, but no.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:33):
[LAUGHS]
ERIC SMALL (29:34):
No, chocolate-covered espresso beans
and a protein bar.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:40):
Love.
OK, so you know thatI hate you for getting
to go to the T-Swift concert.
So the first thingsyou thought when
you walked intothe arena in Vegas
for the T-Swift concert,the first two things.
What was your-- [CHUCKLES]
ERIC SMALL (29:58):
Big and loud.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:05):
A lot of screaming.
ERIC SMALL (30:07):
But we got in a little bit early.
So it was kind of inthis awkward moment
when the opening act was--
ERIKA RANDALL (30:13):
Who was the opening act?
ERIC SMALL (30:15):
I don't remember now.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:17):
It's too bad, because we were all
excited for T-Swift.
Your jazz band name.
ERIC SMALL (30:24):
Wilson and Friends.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:27):
Is that legit, real?
Or did you just make that up?
ERIC SMALL (30:30):
I just made it up.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:31):
You just said it like
it really was your band name.
ERIC SMALL (30:33):
Yeah, but it totally is in my mind.
Yeah, so Wilson, heplays the upright bass.
Unfortunately, that'sonly in my mind,
because Wilson is a20-pound Havanese dog.
He's more of aMuppet than me, but I
can picture himleaning over the bass
and just-- it's justhis personality.
He would just lay down that bassline, and it would be going.
(30:55):
And it just wouldhave that feel.
So Wilson and Friends, and thenother people would be playing.
But I just--
I can just picture it.
I can see it.
Wilson and Friends.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:05):
You need to draw that.
OK.
ERIC SMALL (31:06):
I have drawn it.
ERIKA RANDALL: You have drawn it? (31:07):
undefined
ERIC SMALL (31:08):
I've had computers draw it for me.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:10):
You've had-- no, I love--
ERIC SMALL (31:11):
Yes, and I will send you
the picture of Wilsonplaying the upright bass
and Rachel, older daughter,playing the tenor saxophone
as envisioned by ChatGPT.
It's amazing.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:20):
It's amazing.
ERIC SMALL (31:20):
For a birthday card.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:21):
It's amazing.
All right, you're goingto give a blessing.
You're going to sendsomeone off into the world.
It could be a kid.
It could be a graduating class.
It could be someoneon an expedition.
And I wish for you [INAUDIBLE].
Go.
ERIC SMALL (31:40):
The space, and time, and freedom
to explore what excites youthe most without the pressures
of everyone saying this, andthat, and this, and that.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:59):
I want that.
ERIC SMALL (32:00):
It would be great.
ERIKA RANDALL (32:01):
It would be great.
ERIC SMALL (32:02):
Is that what retirement is?
[CHUCKLES] I don't think so.
[LAUGHS]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ERIKA RANDALL (32:09):
That was Eric Small, Professor
of Earth Sciences at CUBoulder on The Ampersand.
For more on Eric's research,creative work, and things
not boring, see our show notes.
The Ampersand is aproduction of the College
of Arts and Sciences at theUniversity of Colorado, Boulder.
It is written and producedby me, Erika Randall
(32:30):
and Tim Grassley.
If there are peopleyou'd like us
to interview on TheAmpersand, do please email
us at asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker.
And the episodes are recordedat Interplay Recording
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall.
And this is The Ampersand.
(32:50):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
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