Weaving reciprocity with jazz: An interview with Reiland Rabaka

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[CLANKING NOISE]

ANNOUNCER (00:03):
A and S.
[CRANKING AND CLANKING NOISES]

MAN (00:09):
Rock n roll, baby!
Chuck Berry.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

ERIKA RANDALL (00:15):
I imagine Reiland Rabaka, welcoming
Deion Sanders to theopening of the CAAS,
or Center for African andAfrican-American Studies.
He exudes generosity to anequally magnanimous coach
prime.
And their laughterfills the halls.
Someone shouts, hey,Batman and Robin.
And Prime asks, who's Batman?
Without hesitation.
Reiland looks at Sandersand says, "I'm Batman."

(00:37):
Coach Prime says,"you're Batman?"
and Reiland replies,"oh, I'm Batman."
Black studies classes.
In African-American studies,I'm letting them know,
I came here to help.
I'm trying to rescueand reclaim my humanity
and I'm going to help yourescue and reclaim yours because
the more you hold on.
I can't imagine a time in whichReiland isn't a super hero.
This is a man who has published17 books, records music,

(00:58):
went to high school withthe likes of Erykah Badu,
whom he comfortablyflirted with,
and now after more than20 years at CU Boulder,
has worked with studentsto found a center committed
to transformation andanti-racism at the university.
Reiland is a force forgood who brings together
people and ideas tobuild better communities.
I love this human and can'twait for you to meet him,

(01:19):
although many of you havebecause he's everywhere,
like Batman.
[MUSIC PLAYING]

On the ampersand, wecall this Bringing
Together of the Impossible,The Alchemy of Anding.
Together, we'll hear stories ofhumans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking of"and" as a simple conjunction

(01:40):
and that conjunctionjunction kind of way,
we will hear stories of peoplewho see "and" as a verb, a way
to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally
let the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves.
As St Mary Oliverasks, what is it you
plan to do with your onewild and precious life?
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating and collaborating,

(02:01):
it reminds me toreplace a singular
idea of what I think I shouldbecome with a full sensory verb
about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall.
And this is doctor ReilandRabaka on the ampersand.
[MUSIC PLAYING]

REILAND RABAKA (02:23):
I will start by saying that only
you can get this out of me.
I'm a very--
I'm a-- I'm anincredibly private person
I think because I share somuch of my life with the public
that my grandmother,bless her heart,
always says save some ofyourself for yourself, baby.

(02:43):
You know what I mean?
And I, for a longtime, I'm trying
to transform myself in theprocess of transforming
the world.
You know, or viceversa, actually,
transform the world in theprocess of transforming myself.
And I want you to know, Ithink you know me well enough
to know that I'm moreinterested in the process

(03:06):
than I am the end product.

ERIKA RANDALL: Yeah, that's why I (03:07):
undefined
want to get into thefabric, the weave.

Yeah, so I think that's why I love teaching.
And I really don'tconsider myself a teacher,
I consider myself more a sharer.
I consider myselfmore in the style
of Ella Baker, one of my idolsfrom the Civil Rights Movement,
from the Women'sLiberation Movement.
Ella Baker helpedthe young folks
start SNCC, the StudentNonviolent Coordinating

(03:32):
Committee.
And she really saw herselfmore as a facilitator.

Yes.

Right, than an educator.
Now she's educating,but for me, there's
more of a reciprocal thing.
I think you know that anybodythat takes a class with me
actually ends up teachingme more than I ever--

Erika RANDALL (03:49):
Every time.

I think share with them.

I feel that too.

So In an effort to not
be evasive as I usually am,see, if it was somebody else--

I know.
But we'll go so far left thatwe'll circle all the way back
to Texas.
And you're talking aboutthe Women's Movement,
and that your momand grandmother were
the first to bringyou into that.
That came--

Well, and--

Is that true?

Yeah, well, through the church.
So my first loveis gospel music.
So I grew up as a youthminister of music.
My mother is actually awoman, is a theologian.
So my mother is theMinister, you know.
Everybody kind ofknows I'm a PK, which
means a preacher's kid.

Yeah.

But they--
I think they just assumethat it's my pops,
but it's actually my mom's.
And so that shapes, not onlyyour spirituality, but also
a gender consciousnessbecause of the way
that women aretreated in the church.
The way that women are erased.

(04:47):
And so my first loveremains Mahalia Jackson,
Albertina Walker, ShirleyCaesar, Clara Ward.
These are the kinds of folksmy mother and my grandmother
were listening to.
James Cleveland, ThomasDorsey, I could just--
I could do this all day.
But we ain't got all day,you know what I mean?

But to get this litany out--

It's really important to roll call that--
I think that probably unlikea lot of other, you know,
African-Americanmusicians, my first music--
my first musical love was,and remains, gospel music.
Every day before I listento anything secular,
I listen to a gospel album.
You know, so after myprayers and my meditation,

(05:31):
I start with the music.
So African-American sacredsong is my foundation.
And in fact, I mean, oddly, Iwill be keynoting the National
Spirituals Conference this monthat the University of Denver.
And they know that I havea love affair with, first
and foremost, the spiritual.
So what they used tocall Negro Spirituals,

(05:52):
this is the music, thesoundtrack of our enslavement.
These are songs of notsimply heavenly salvation,
but earthly liberation.
And so for me, there's alwaysbeen a connection, at least
from the African-Americanchurch I come out of,
there's always been a connectionbetween the social gospel

(06:13):
and social justice.
That there's no way we cantalk about spirituality
that is removedfrom the material,
the actual physicalworld that we live in.
And so after gospel,Erika, I grew up so poor
that as strict asmy mother was, she

(06:37):
allowed me to play jazz becausewhen I was nine years old,
I got my first $100 billfor playing a jazz gig.
I thought it was monopoly money.
I didn't know it was real money.

You hadn't seen 100--

I'd never seen a-- come on, I'm not--
you know.
I never seen--

And you got it in your hand.

Yeah.
I mean, they-- and Igave it to my mother.
She hugged me.
She held me.
It was a real--
it was a real-- it was it's abittersweet moment because when
I look back and just to be realwith you, that's also probably
the day my childhood ended.
You can't just bea little kid when
you fixing to help yourmama make rent from now on.

(07:13):
So as long as you didn'tmiss Wednesday night prayer
meeting, choir rehearsaland church on Sunday, then
you can go and swing.
And I was part of a generationwhat they were calling--
it was a jazzrenaissance going on.
You know, with folkslike Wynton Marsalis,
Branford Marsalis, Roy Hargrove,who I went to high school
with, by the way, who I went tohigh school with, Roy Hargrove.
Growing up in Texas--

Yeah, Texas jazz.
How did those-- howdid that connect?

Well, having--
you know, part ofmy family being
creole folk from nextdoor and Louisiana,
and so going back and forth tothe jazz and heritage festival.
In Texas, hearinggospel, hearing
blues just as much asI'm hearing jazz and R&B
and Funk and soul and hip-hop.
And let's not forget theCaribbean influenced reggae
music.

Erika RANDALL: Reggae, that was-- (07:57):
undefined
my soundtrack was DonnaSummer, my mom, Donna Summer--

Beautiful.

Bob Marley.
And then full EnglishHippie Cat Stevens.

OK.
And I'm so-- wait,Wow World, anybody?

Oh, man.
All of it.

I love Cat Stevens--

All of it.

Who don't even have that name anymore,
who's playing [INAUDIBLE].
You know what I'm saying?

I know.
And he's been moving back.

Just beautiful though.
I mean--

But the reggae--
right?
That--

It's absolutely there--

That was in your house
or that was in yourhead and heart?

That was in my head and heart more.
I think that-- I think thatbeing a kid from the projects
and going to all artconservatory schools,
so I didn't go toregular school.
So I never went to a school witha football team or a basketball
team or something like that.
So I went to all art schools.
And so at the time,they would allow
one African-American per grade.
So these were the elite suburbanschools where people got--

Is this Mrs. Robinson's classroom?

That was first grade.


And so those schools, K through12, were all art schools.
So I literally spent thebulk of my youth training
to be a musician.
And the way that theytrained me, Erica,
you've got to be ableto play everything.
So I played klezmer.
I played polka.
I played country and western.
I played tejano.

(09:12):
I played bar mitzvahs.
I played-- on top of allof the jazz and the gospel
and the blues and the soul andthe funk, baby, the funk, baby,
oh, the funk.
You know?
And so for me, it'sthat versatility, I
think that'sactually what allowed
me to go from the projects tothe professor at where I'm at
to--

That versatility of thinking-- of thinking with.

It opens you up though.

Right.

Because--

Yes.

Here's the-- here's the thing,
and I really, reallywant to stress this.
And I think maybethis is why somebody
like me is able to be on thefaculty at the University
of Colorado for nearly 20 years.
In the schools thatI went to, especially
by the time I get to juniorhigh school and high school,
there's this weird inversionof the junior high school
and high school experience.

(09:57):
So your popularity isn'tbased on what kind of car
your parents drive orhow much money they
have in the bank accountor how big your house is.
It's based on your talent.
It's based on your gift.
So guess who wasthe most popular?
I said papa-la.

Boom.
Boom.

Kid is cool.
I went to high schoolwith Erykah Badu.
I graduated from the samehigh school as Norah Jones.

Norah Jones went to Interlochen,
which was my-- that's my home.

You see what I'm saying?

I feel you.
Like

I went to the same high school
as Edie Brickell.

What?

Right.

Because-- and talk about [? an ?] [? Andre ?]
and the New Bohemians.


I know.
So there was a lineage.
And so there was anexpectation or just a mentoring
or it was a pressure in thatworld if you're coming through,
or were you the pressure?
Because you came throughand set the stage.

REILAND RABAKA: When your family's (10:36):
undefined
depending on you to eat--

Yeah, you got to-- that's the pressure.

So I think for a lot of the other kids,
this was a hobby.
But for me, thiswas the way that I
was going to literally swingmyself from the projects
into an artsconservatory university,
an arts conservatorycollege, so on and so forth.
Got accepted to Cal Arts.
Got accepted to most of the--
I mean, I don't know what schoolI did not get accepted to.

Well, and at the end of the day,
because you had allthese capacities,
did you feel like the pressureis on me to get a job in music
or now I've gotthese opportunities,
I need to shift to somethingmore stable, air quotes?

If I can be honest with you,
I think because I'mfirst generation,
I think folks werejust happy I was going.
I did get some ofthe, "you sure you
shouldn't be a business major?"

You did get some of that.
OK.
OK.

Oh, definitely.
Like, what onEarth are you going
to do with a music degree?

Was that mom, or was mom always in the corner?

No, it was more my grandmother.
My mother's, in some ways,spiritually speaking,
a very free spirit, interfaith,open to a lot of things.
And to be honest with you,I'm probably the daughter
my mother never had.
So I'm my mother's middle son.
So I have an older brotherand a younger brother.
And I can't believe you'regetting all this out of me.

(11:54):
I'm a very private person.
Shout out to Robert andRandy, that is their name.
My older brothers--

The three R's.

Yeah.
And they got themore conventional--
I mean, both of them arenamed after their fathers.
And my mother justwent left field.
You know?
So I can rock and roll.

That's why you're always going left.

Because I'm left handedand when I found out
Jimi Hendrix was left handedand Barack Obama was left handed
and W.E.B. Duboiswas left-handed.

OK.
Bookmark on Dubois.
OK.
So then I got to get back.
We're going to go backto Texas one more time
and I want to talkabout Mrs. Robinson.
Because if you'regoing to say Dubois,
she was the first personto say that name to you.
And can you tell methe story in a way
you've never told the storybefore so you can hear it?
Because it's a good story.

REILAND RABAKA: You know, I think (12:34):
undefined
that being precociousand really,
when you when you grow upin the church like I did
and you start playing, I mean,I was so young they sat me
on phone books.
So in theAfrican-American church,
they actually cultivate,quote, unquote giftedness,

(12:56):
talented-ness, I'mmaking up words for you.

We like that here.

And it's one of those things
where there's a unique culturewithin the African-American
church of, they say in termsof our gifts and our talents.
Number one, Erica, I believe--and you can see this is what
works for me as a as aprofessor, all of us--
for-- I mean, inAfrican-American church
culture, it's the cultivation,it's the nurturing of--

(13:24):
everybody is gifted.
See?
God don't play favorites.

Yeah, God's giving everybody--

So everybody-- but if you don't use it,
you lose it.
If you don'tconsciously develop it.
So all those hours I'msitting there practicing, when
the other kids had video games.
You know, I used tofeel tight because they
could play Sega and all the--
Atari and all the cool games.
We didn't-- we didn't have that.

Commodore 64.

You see?
So we didn't have allof that kind of stuff.
I wasn't able to seeJordan do all of those
crazy-- because we didn'thave-- the TV wasn't
on most of the time.
So I mean, evenif you have a TV,
it's got the littleantenna, you know,
with the clotheshanging off in it
with the fall on the backof it and everything.
But if you don't haveyour electricity on,
if you don't have runningwater, so on and so forth.

(14:11):
And so I think that a lot ofthe time where I felt tight, I
felt maybe a littleeconomically traumatized,
humiliated, demoralized, Iwas in that practice room.
I was knuckling and brawling,attempting to evolve myself.
And the realityof the matter is I
had-- it was a multiracial,multicultural group of teachers

(14:34):
that nurtured this talent.
So on the one hand, I justwant you to hear, foundation
and please, let'sget it straight,
foundation is theAfrican-American church.
However, but the churchsends us out into the world.
As you know, one ofmy favorite spirituals
is called Go and See the World.
And this is something mygrandmother will sing to me,
often, she sings it often.
Certainly, if I get[? weird, ?] I just say, mama,
will you sing to me?

(14:55):
And she will sing.

She's still here to sing to you?

My grandmother--
I'm sorry, thismakes me emotional,
my grandmotherturns 96 tomorrow.
And my grandmother is one ofthe great loves of my life.
And the other, of course,being my other grandmother
and my mama.
My grandmother, I thinkyou can do the math,
if I'm from Texas,my grandmother's 96,

(15:18):
Juneteenth wasissued 158 years ago.
So my grandmother'sgrandmother was enslaved.
So it's not a coincidencethat I would come out
an African-American studiesprofessor, that I speak
with love-lacedwords, that I'm trying
to bring some levelof human understanding
to what's going on.
Even the rapport, thebond that we have,

(15:40):
that culture, Erica,taught me to also check
for your life andyour struggles.
So it's not just about me.
It's about you we.

That's when you say Ubuntu in your signature.

See what I'm saying?
So how can you guys--

I am because you are.

There you go.
So I am because we are.
And how can you and I rescue andreclaim our humanity together,
instead of avoiding myAfricanity, the fact that I'm
African-American, what happenedif we put that front and center
and do it in a way that'snot antagonistic to you?
And I acknowledge asI just spoke to you,
asking about your mother, askingabout your son, and so on.

(16:15):
So the humanity,the shared humanity
that we have, forme, that's what
it means to come out of Texas.
I mean, this is the statethat Juneteenth is all about.
This is the state whereI grew up with nine HBCUS
that I could throw a rockout of my grandmother's yard

(16:39):
and break a window,and I didn't do that,
but this is howclose the HBCU is.
I grew up seeingAfrican-American youth
with books and dress smart andthe richness of that, Erica--
and also the factthat I didn't grow up
in an all black neighborhood.
So I grew up surroundedby Mexican-Americans.

(17:01):
I grew up surroundedby Asian-Americans,
some Indigenous folks.
Because again,you got New Mexico
on one side, Oklahoma, Arkansas.
I could just go on and on.

What corner were you?

Dallas.

Dallas.
OK.

So that's going to be the North.
But let me answerabout Mrs. Robinson.
Mrs. Robinson, myfirst grade teacher.
I was, again, young andprecocious, a ball of energy.
My mother wouldalways say whatever
you give the other kids,you need to give him
three times as much.
Mrs. Robinson knew that shecould speed dial my mother.
In fact, all sheneeded to say was

(17:32):
"don't make me call yourmother," and I would back down.
So Mrs. Robinson-- it'sblack history month,
Mrs. Robinson hasthese little almost
like placards, largerthan a postcard size,
of different blackhistory month figures.
So you know, EllaFitzgerald was on one.
Let's say, BillieHoliday, you name it.
Jesse Owens, Paul Robeson, ZoraNeale Hurston, Langston Hughes,

Jackie Robinson.


Yeah.
Yeah.

REILAND RABAKA: And so everybody-- (17:55):
undefined
I thought I should get DukeEllington or Billie holiday
or Thelonious Monk, DizzyGillespie, Charlie Parker,
Charles Mingus, I couldjust do this all day long.
And I sit up here, Ithought at that time,
this is my little first grademind so just bear with me,
I got a frenchman Du Bois.

Du Bois.

Right?
Because again, I got some creolefolk right on the other side.
And I stormed up to Mrs.Robinson's desk, you know how--
you know how kids can be.
And I can't believe itit's black history month,
everybody else got blackpeople and I got a white man,
I got a French man namedDu Bois, and everything.

(18:35):
And she gave me a good talkingto that changed my life.
And this is thepower of teachers.
And she saidReiland, if you spent
as much time actually readingas you do sitting up here
trying to criticizemy teaching and what
I'm doing, if youdon't go sit down,
I'm going to callyour mama, boy.
You know?
And so I ran back tomy desk, sat down,

(18:56):
read the card and everything.
I still had my lipsstuck out, but I
read the card or whatever.
And the more I read, the morefascinated, the more intrigued.
It actually saidthat Du Bois went
to an HBCU, Fisk University,in Nashville, Tennessee.
So again, my grandmotherlives within walking
distance of an HBCU.
I'm thinking, wow,wait, what's going on?
Then I come to find out thatthis person had achieved

(19:19):
two bachelor's degrees,two Master's degrees
and the equivalent of two PhDs.
One of them, he studied atthe University of Berlin.

In how many different disciplines?

Oh, gosh, yeah.
Four different disciplines thathe wrote his first dissertation
at the Universityof Berlin in German.
So traveling, thatalso impressed me.

So the world opens.

Right, a whole nother world.
The fact that he waswell traveled, well read.
When I saw photos ofhim, he was well dressed.
And then there was a connect.
From the preachersthat I'm seeing
in the African-Americanchurch to the jazz musicians,
they're also dressed,Miles Davis got,
what, GQ Man of the Year wasit 10 times in a row, at least
seven times in a row.
I mean, this guy was clean.

Yes.

And so for me, learning about Dubois
and the fact that he connectedhis intellectual pursuits
with his social justicepursuits, this person
not only-- you know, hefounded sociology in the United
States of America, he alsofounded the NAACP, the National
Association for the Advancementof Colored People February

(20:24):
the 12th, 1909.
And then I found out,Erica, later on, now this
is later on, Mrs.Robinson walked
me into the library wherethere was Mrs. [? Leisner, ?]
my librarian at the time.
And she just said, hey, if youreally want to read something,
here's some of his books.
Of course, I couldn't make themthrough it at the first great.
So once they got the children'slevel book about Dubois's life,

(20:48):
I think I keptthat checked out--

It just said stamp, Reiland--


Stamp, Reiland.

And it changed my life
to be perfectly honest with you.
So not only was hean intellectual,
not only was he an activistwith the NAACP work--

1909.

Right.

Right.

I find out that he wrote five novels.

The novels he wrote blew my mind.
You introduced that to me.
That was a giftfrom you, that he--

Isn't that incredible?

Yeah, and that he's writing, and in the novels
he's also bringinghis story forward.

There you go.

And that is such a potent way of expressing--

Historical fiction, sociological fiction.
I didn't even knowsuch genres existed.

And it feels like they really were
born of the black experience.

There you go.

Yes.

Absolutely.
It's what-- Erica, it's whatwe would call Afro Modernism.
And I think this wouldexplain my preoccupation
with the Harlem Renaissance,and in fact, many people
say that Dubois's 1903 classic,The Souls of Black Folk
was a precursor towhat happened 15
years later with the beginningof the Harlem Renaissance.

That is where I was like-- this was just
already coming-- this waslike, here's your model,
here's your map.

There you go.

And when you talk about him being a proto
interdisciplinarian,proto intersectionalist,
and on this podcast,a proto andar,
because he is making it up,making it up and transforming
through that notneed to categorize.

I think this is where I get in trouble at CU.
You are talking tosomebody-- you know,
ethnic studies is rosteredin social science.
But you're also talking tosomebody who's a core faculty
member of humanities.
Did you know that?
I'm in the humanities--

I do know that.

I'm a professor of humanities.

Yeah.
That's realness.

And so for me, Dubois
is a model, an incessantmodel because Dubois was
able to be a social scientist.
So an intellectual, aartist, five novels,
nine volumes of poetry, threedozen short stories, two dozen
plays.
I could go on and onand on, and an activist.

(22:43):
So for me, I mean,those are-- maybe
those labels fit what I'm upto best, intellectual artist,
activists, maybe those threethings, I'm kind of cool with.
But I don't want people to silome off into only one of those.
And I'm looking at theseincredible personalities
of the HarlemRenaissance and the way
that Langston Hughes was apoet, a novelist, a playwright,

(23:06):
an essayist, a travel logist, Icould just go on and on and on.
Hurston, oh my lord, Hurston, anovelist, a short story writer,
and essayist--

An ambassador.

REILAND RABAKA: Choreographer, a singer, (23:16):
undefined
a cultural anthropologist,a folklorist.
I could just goon and on and on.
And I think, Erica, hasthe Academy forced folks
like you and I toreduce ourselves
in order to fit into theselittle tenure schemes?

Oh, yeah.
I mean, I think that isone of the things where--
where this notion ofpushing the idea of we
are more than just thecategory we got hired in
has felt so critical to me.
We have been stuck into a frame.
And it's just--

REILAND RABAKA: And they forced-- (23:47):
undefined
they forced you to inorder to achieve tenure.
Now the second some folksachieve tenure, they explode.

Yeah, and then you can kick back.
And they're like, lookwhat-- you're like,
I've always been into this.
I was always doing this trouble.
Did you feel a freedom, ordid you come in with it?

You know what, I think
I'm not a good example, justbecause African-American
studies is always left of fieldin the American Academy because
of how eurocentric,heteropatriarchal
the American Academy can be.
So my field is always been,I'm going to say slowly,
Erica, transdisciplinary.
By that, I know I'm using$5 words, wait hold on,

(24:22):
just hold on.
By transdisciplinary,I mean I'm in a field,
I'm in a discipline thattranscends and transgresses
the borders and boundaries, thevery artificial and arbitrary
borders and boundariesof academic disciplines.
What if-- what ifAfrican-American studies

(24:44):
is more about the communitythan it is the campus?
What if African-American studiesis actually about me literally
being a bridge from thecommunity to the campus,
from the campusto the community.

And you're doing it you.
You have sprinkled themagic that goes, look,
the bridge was here.
And now we all see thebridge, where you always
saw the bridge, you walked thebridge, you were on the bridge,
you brought peopleto the bridge.
Now the rest of us, slowerthan you, see the bridge.
And it's beautiful.

You all have been inspirations though.
I see myself asa bridge builder.
I think that justlike anything, it
requires ongoing maintenance.
So to receive theemails from you,
to receive the hugs and thelove that I receive from you
and so many of mycolleagues on that campus,
I think it's importantfor me to emphasize
that my worldview, my positionis that the glass is actually

(25:37):
half full, as opposedto half empty.
And I cannot live andwork in Boulder and have
an antagonisticrelationship with--
I would have a heart attack,if I can be honest with you.
I mean, I'm just toomuch of a sensitive soul.
I feel like MarvinGaye, when he says
we're all sensitive peoplewith (SINGING) So much to--
understand it.

(25:58):
But I think--

Don't start and then stop!
Don't start and then stop!

You better watch out.
You better watch out!

Because we haven't even
gotten to talkingabout all the things
yet when it comes to music.

I think that for me,
if I can be honestwith you, it's
the music that actually hashelped me sustain myself out
here.
It's therapeutic.
Hey, Erica, eventhough I live in one
of the most vanilla environmentson the face of the Earth
where I can gosometimes days and never
see another African orAfrican-American person,

(26:30):
the music, for me to be ableto bump the new Kendrick
Lamar the second it comesout in south central,
where he from, thefact that I can
bump that new Beyonce--my students just bum
rushed into my office.

Came in with Beyonce.
[LAUGHTER]

I didn't even know that--
I was in a meeting, I didn'teven know the album dropped.
They took over my office.

See, you give them hope.
Because your students, the factthat you come in with a glass
and that it's halffull and then you
have a pitcher overhere for their glasses--

Absolutely.

And so then they know.

And I let them know that they actually
teach me.
The fact that, you know,when the new J Cole dropped,
when the new whoeverit is, they keep me--
if you want me teachinghip-hop at a high level,
make a contribution.
Don't just take the class,contribute to the class.
And it's that very reciprocity--

Keep it current.

It's that reciprocity that--
that's at the heartof my pedagogy.
And in fact, I want you to know,you already know this, for me,
teaching is an art.
So I'm still an artist.

I was talking with [? Rennie ?] Harris,
we did a mini doc on Hambone,on the dance, Hambone.

You sent it to me, remember?
And it was jamming.

Now it's better.
It's done.

Can you send me the new?

I'm getting the sound balanced.
I'm not sendingyou the unbalanced.
And thinking about the waythat these stories, how we--
Rennie said a thingthat was just so real.
And in dance, this is thetruth and in music, this
is the truth, that thepeople who oppress us
are also learning from us.
So as much as they're taking,they're also learning.
And that is where--

(27:54):
that's how our country was made.
And it's made on--
on the pains and the backsand the crimes of so many.
But there was also exchange.
And if we don't honor thatin these independent states,
we're not honoring the trueexchange of our intellectual
and our spiritual connection.

I agree.

To one another.

I agree.

Even in the harm.

I agree.
It's a mosaic.
We actually live in amulticultural society,
although there are somepeople who act like it's mono,
like one culture,and we actually
have many different culturesthat are coming together.
We have one of thegreat human experiments
throughout humanhistory here, to be
perfectly honest with you.
And my commitment, my work, mybrand new center, as you know,

(28:40):
could be called TheCenter for Rehumanization.
And that's not justfor African-Americans,
it's not just for black folk.

The film talks about that.
Like, you all are welcome.


You want to heal.
You want to do the work.

If you come-- if you here.
If you want to learn--

If you want to learn.

Right, because they are banning.
You're not hearing aboutthem banning other--
they're banning African-Americanstudies in Florida.
We're here in Colorado,we're going to build it up.
We're going to build a bridgefrom many different communities
if people really,really want to know.
I do think it's shameful if theycreate a situation where people
have to pay $30,000 toget-- to go to college
to get access toAfrican-American studies.

(29:14):
That's shameful.
Something is wrong with that,to be perfectly honest with you.
And I think that's why youalso see me in the community
so much.
Because what I'mtrying to do is be
a resource for BoulderCounty, for the Denver
metropolitan area, for the greatstate of Colorado, you hear me?
I want to shout outthe Governor, who
spreading some love.

He spread so much love.
Yeah.
But we got so much to do.
Did you--

We got a long way to go.

In order to keep up this energy because you have
to keep up this energy, andyou talk about music as that,
that soul intervention, thatis the thing that has got you
through and kept you alive,is-- one of them, one of them--
is that--
was that the nextobvious, like I,
or was it just thatI need this project,
this writing about womenof soul and funk and disco?
Did that come from thatspace of giving back

(30:01):
to those womenand those stories?

And my mother and them.
I mean--

My mom.

My mama will turn--
I mean, I'm not going to be ableto play this podcast for her
now until December.
So my next book is called BlackWomen's Liberation Movement
Music.
And first and foremost, I'mactually talking about the fact
that there was a blackwomen's liberation movement.

(30:25):
There are a lot ofAfrican-American women,
a lot of African women whoare very committed to, first
and foremost, women'sdecolonization
before we can ever achievewomen's liberation.
So that's the first part.
And the fact that a lot of thesentiment of the women's lib
movement is expressedthrough, here's
the subtitle of thebook, soul sisters,

(30:45):
black feminist funksters,and afro disco divas.
So soul music, funk anddisco between 1967 and 1979,
there are subtextually, lotsof gender celebration critique,
commentary, affirmationsthat are going on.

(31:06):
I mean, so it's really,really powerful,
I'm actually writing aherstory of this movement
through its songs.

Which is what--
OK, so tell me who arethese historical figures?
Can you shout out?

Yes, absolutely.

Let's go.

In terms of soul sisters, Aretha Franklin
and Nina Simone.
This is in that phase.
Etta James, Tina Turner.
I got a chance to seeher a lot coming up.
And phenomenal, butcertainly a song--

Keep going, I cut you off.

No, no, just even a song
like ArethaFranklin's, "Respect,"
1967, that song was consideredan anthem for the end
of the civil rights movement.
It was considered an anthemfor the black power movement.
And it was considered an anthemfor the women's liberation
movement.
I mean, this just shows youthe universality and the power,
just of one songduring that period.
So soul sisters, I said, ArethaFranklin and Nina Simone.

(31:58):
For black feminist funksters,really, a lot of that
starts with Labelle.

I was going to say, because that is--

Patti Labelle--

ERIKA RANDALL: Futurism incarnate. (32:03):
undefined

There you go.

I didn't know that until--

Definitely.
Definitely.
So it starts with Labelle.
An artist called[? Maxienne, ?] which
most people have never--she's kind of underground.
Obviously, who they considerthe queen of funk, Chaka Khan.

Chaka Khan.

And then lastly, the anti-commercial queen
of funk, BettyDavis, who's really,
really pushed theenvelope on so many--
because with BettyDavis's work, she
combines not simplywomen's liberation,
but the sexual revolution ofthe 1970s, which is probably
how a lot of us inthis room got here.

Thank you.

You know, but again, I
think if we really, reallylisten to a lot of this music,
it really--
we're talking about womenowning their sexual desires,
being able to speak publicly andunafraid and unapologetically
about their sexuality, sexualpleasures, sexual desires.
And then this is how wego to my last chapter
of this book, afro discodivas, where I take

(32:59):
on Donna Summer, Gloria Gaynor.

Gloria.

You see, Linda Clifford, Grace Jones, Diana
Ross, et cetera.
But again, disco is even more.
Why?
Because I'm able to queer it toshow that even though you have
these afro disco divas,a lot of their audience
were queer white men,queer Latinx men.

Who are feeling the realness of the world that
got put forth by thesegoddess extremes.

So the universality
of this music-- so insteadof being limited simply
to black women or toAfrican-American women, what
about, Erica, the universalityof the African-American
experience?
I could talk to youabout my love affair,
again, with folks likeBob Dylan, or the Beatles,
or the Rolling Stones, or LedZeppelin, you just name it.

(33:46):
And so I thinkthat for me, that's
what the art conservatoryeducation allowed,
that I was exchanging records.
I'm trading my--
I'm trading my John ColtraneQuartet tape cassette,
because back then,it was cassettes,
I'm trading my John Coltranecassette for somebody's Beatles
cassette.

Little Simon and Garfunkel.

You see what I'm saying though?
And so you have thisthe very exchange
that real universitiesare supposed to be about,
that we can do iton equal footing.

I was thinking about--
I was listening to LynnCollins recently because I--
think, and it takestwo, and the helmet,
and I was, like,oh, it takes two.
That is everything ampersand.
And then I listened againto that song, I was like,
oh my god, Janice Joplin waslistening to Lynn Collins.

There you go.
And Janis Joplin, fromTexas, by the way.

From Texas.

Port Arthur to be exact, right outside
of Houston.
Janis Joplin actually boughtBessie Smith her tombstone.
This is how influenced she was.
She knows that there's noway to talk about a pop diva
in the United States of Americathat doesn't-- cannot be traced
back to Bessie Smith.
Ma Rainey beforeBessie Smith, right?
This is really,really fascinating

(34:48):
because Janis Joplin, to me,also borrows a great deal
from Etta James, which mostpeople won't acknowledge
for whatever reason.

Why not?

I think that--

If she were still alive, she would--
don't you think she would--

Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think that--
I think this is why I havea love affair probably
more with the blues rocktradition coming out
of Britain.
Because folks like EricClapton, folks like The Beatles,
The Rolling Stones, wait,The Rolling Stones name,
they won't even have a name.
They named themselves aftera Muddy Waters song, 1957,
one of his first hit recordscalled Rolling Stone,

(35:21):
by the way.
I think that wecan live in a world
where I like Bobby Blue Blandand B.B. King and Koko Taylor,
and I like just a lotof different-- my ears
are really, really big.
So I'm listening to everything.
And I think that there'sa tendency to say, well,
what kind of music do you like?
And people will haveto say one little--

That's right.

You know, corporate America
genre that they've come up with.
Listen, don't make me starttalking about hip-hop, right?
I mean, excuse me, the tragedyof contemporary rap music
is that I think that,as you know, in my work,
I wrote the Hip-hopMovement Trilogy,
so I wrote a trilogy on hip-hop.
In the trilogy, I'veidentified more than 75 forms

(36:01):
of rap music.
The sad reality ismost people only know
about two forms of rap music.
They know aboutcommercial rap, or what I
call radio rap and gangsta rap.
So the fact that there's queerrap, the fact that there's
FemC's, these are MC's withfeminist sensibilities.
The fact that there's Buddhistrap, there's Hawaiian rap,
there's German rap, there'scertainly a lot of rap
all throughoutAfrica, Latin America.

Do you put MC Light in the FemC camp?
Because she is everything to me.
That's who I grew up.

Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, and I'm alsosaying that I understand
that just because you andI might label somebody a,
quote, unquote, "feministMC" or a womanist MC,
they may never mess with--
with the F word,meaning feminism.

Right.
No, no, no, thatwas Martha Graham.
She's like, I'm not a feminism.

Like, there's somebaggage right now
that's even beenattached to that word.

Especially from a black female perspective.

There you go.
And so this is what Tricia Roseis working Black Noise, where
she talks about a lot of themmay never-- like, my mother
and my grandmother maynever use the word feminism,
but they are strong, brilliant,beautiful, outspoken,
assertive, these are allqualities to me, women.
And they may never-- sowe need to understand

(37:05):
the limitations, so the plusesand the minuses, of labeling.
And how no matterhow cool and in-vogue
that may be on a collegecampus, in the community,
that could play itselfout very differently.
And I think that youand I, as artists,
understand whatever we thinkis so hip and hot and cool.

It's about to change.
It's already old.

And that's the beauty
though of us being ableto have day jobs where--
I mean, should Iput this on the mic?
You are aware that theyactually buy my CDs now.

I know.

CU Boulder buys my CDs.

Yeah, because now they're like, oh, this guy.
This guy.
They're a littlelate to the party.

REILAND RABAKA: Well, it only took me (37:39):
undefined
almost 20 years of staying outhere for them to finally do it.
They're doing it.
And thank you.

They're doing it and thank you.
My friend, we are at themoment of the quick and dirty.
This is my favorite part,where you get to just spill.
And I know you can do thisbecause you can just--
you can go with a litany.
And I'm going to stickto some of my questions.
Again, quick not dirty,or they can be dirty.
So I'm going to--
some obvious that are goingto be easy, just to get you
started.
OK.
Gladys?

Knight.

And?

The Pips.

Yeah, I'm just saying.
OK.
So you see the game.
Do you see it--

I see the game.

Smokey Robinson.

And the Miracle.

OK.
So then let's go Diana Ross.

REILAND RABAKA: And The Supremes. (38:15):
undefined

OK.
Then we're going to go--
well, not everybodyknows Patti Labelle and?

The Bluebelles.

There we go.
OK.
Now give me one.

Jimi Hendrix.

Oh, Yep.
And the mm, mm people.
Oh shiza!
My mother's going to kill me.

Jimi Hendrix and the--
The Jimi Hendrix Experience,Jimi Hendrix and the Band
of Gypsy's.

OK.
So then I wasthinking-- it's the--
it's the moving people,or moving company, right?
Janis Joplin, theMoving Company.
What are some otherones we can fail at?

Oh, let's--
oh wow, here we go.
Bob Marley?

And The Wailers.
OK.
I got that one.
OK.

Let's see.
I can do this all day.

Once you get in the groove.

Oh, my lord.
Wait.
Wait.
Michael Jackson.

OK.
And The Jackson Five.

Prince, and?

OK.
And The Revolution.

Yeah.

OK.
We can do this all day.
OK.
OK.
So two-- if you were goingto like, are you fourteeners?
Do you go up high,or are you more?

Sometime.

OK.
So on a Sundaythough, two trails
you would have tohit or two locations.

Oh wow.
Arapaho National Forest.
I love it out there.
Tell them, please.
I'm incognegrowhen I'm out there.
So you know I'm not wearingmy little African beret.
I'm just out theredoing my thing.
That's definitely one of them.
To be honest withyou, I mean, there
are so many trails around here.
El Dorado, I justlike tricking off.

I know.
I love that.
Well, and the water rightaway, it just hits me.
OK.
Another andar that you admire?
Someone else who's likeanding in the world
besides a Dubois and all theseother litanies you've listed?

REILAND RABAKA: Meshell Ndegeocello. (39:42):
undefined
I think the waythat she explodes
the boundaries of the music.
Cassandra Wilson.
Beyonce even.
I mean, I'm really,really-- listen Erica,
I think that there'sa love affair
that I have with women's music.
Because I think that oppressedgroups, we can sing it in a way

(40:04):
that we can't say it.
So if I went out and said--like when N.W.A said come and F
the Police, they can rap it.
But if they say it,they might shoot--
they might shoot you down.
I ain't going to bring up--

Everyone's going to sing along with you.

So it's one of thosekinds of things
where I'm really, really--
I'm seeing that for alot more Queer artists.
I'm really, reallyinto Queer rap.
So I like Big Freedia.
I like Angel Haze.
There's so many of them thatI teach about in my work
And so for me, Ithink that part of it
is my students are the andorsthat I'm really, really into.
Because they openthemselves to me

(40:36):
exploding theirconception of rap.
Like I'm pushing themto move beyond radio.
I'm really intothe mixtape game.
I'm really into underground rap.
I'm really intoexperimental rap.
I'm really into a lot ofthis left of field rap
that's mixinggenres far and wide.
And I think that'swhat sort of--
even directing thiscenter right now,

(40:58):
when I sayAfrican-American, I think
you know because youknow your brother.
When I sayAfrican-American, it's
a hemispheric conceptionof the Americas.
So it's North,Central, and South,
including the Caribbean islands.
So it's a Westernhemisphere conception
of let's exploreAfricanity throughout

(41:19):
the Western hemisphere.
Let's see the connectionsthat exist literally
between not simply continentalAfrica, but also Europe.
Why?
Because I come out ofan area of this country
that is actuallyincredibly creolized.
And so for me, that's whyjazz is such a metaphor.
That's why it makesso much sense.
That's why the way I waseducated makes so much sense.

(41:41):
This sort of ragtag cast ofcharacters that comes together
to produce someone likeme, not simply at home,
but in the church,but also school.
And so my teachersright now have had such
an incredible impact on me.
Prince, I mean, a constant--
just somebody that constantly,I think, pushes the envelope.

(42:01):
There's so many.
I mean, in terms of rap artists,Rapsody, arguably my favorite.
I think that there arejust so many of them
who really push the envelope.
And they understandthat they need
to do what they got to do tobe commercially viable, or not.
And then they justgo left to field.
So I think that--
I'm really interested inpeople that take risks
people like yourself whoare not afraid to get out

(42:23):
of their comfortzone, push themselves
to that next level, who aremore interested in the process
than the end product.
I'm not really--
I mean, if you askme about the cause
and where I see the causegoing 5, 10 years from now,
I can see the endowment.
But exactly howthat looks and feel,
that depends on the studentsthat I'm rocking with,
the staff, thecommunity members,

(42:44):
the allies thatI'm rocking with.
Yeah, so it's very open ended.
That's what excites me.

So if you could send
one blessing, last question,forward to your students,
your teachers that wouldsend them off the--
my Irish family would say, andmay the road rise to meet you.
What would your "and may you,"or "and shall," or "and."

Wow.

Yeah.

Wow.

Don't overthink.
You got it.

Don't be afraid to take risks,
that for me, that's whatthe jazz aesthetic is about.
For me, jazz isn't music, it's aphilosophy, it's a way of life.
And so be open to the sound ofsurprise, the sight and sounds
of surprise, the experience.

(43:38):
Crave it.
Go out of your wayto do something new.
And I would also challengethem, encourage them, implore
them to keep teaching me.
Because for me, teachingis not simply an art.
It's an act of love.
[MUSIC PLAYING]

ERIKA RANDALL: That was Professor (43:58):
undefined
of Ethnic Studies, ReilandRabaka, on The Ampersand.
To learn more aboutDr. Rabaka's research
and the Center for Africanand African-American Studies
at the University of Colorado,Boulder, see our show notes.
[MUSIC PLAYING]

The ampersand is aproduction of the College
of Arts and Sciences atthe University of Colorado,
Boulder.

(44:19):
It is written and producedby me, ERIKA Randall,
and Tim Grassley.
If there are peopleyou'd like us
to interview on TheAmpersand, do please email
us at asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker.
And the episodes are recordedat Interplay Recording
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm ERIKA Randall, andthis is The Ampersand.

(44:42):
[MUSIC PLAYING]

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Weaving reciprocity with jazz: An interview with Reiland Rabaka

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