Ep 51 - Earning cents through stock website is an insult, with NFT artists can finally make a living - Kristin Piljay - The Art of Photography

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
All these tweets about artists

(00:02):
saying they can finally make a
living at art and artists
actually making money because
like the kind of the whole thing
with the stock photography,
where you people are paid like
one centre for centre, whatever
for their art or their photo or
video, it was just so insulting

(00:25):
Hey wiki hunters Welcome back to
The Art of Photography podcast,
where we share artists journey
and share how photography given
us all purpose and happiness.
And today we have somebody who
I've met through Twitter, and
it's pretty cool. Actually, I
haven't chatted with her too
much, but just going to some of
her photograph coming in trade.

(00:48):
And I want to have her here in
the podcast and talk about her
journey. Good morning, Kristen.
Welcome to the Art of
Photography podcast, or
actually, it's even in your
place, isn't it?
Well, yeah, I can say good
morning, because it's good
morning. There's always good
morning in the NFT. World. That
is true.
It is always good morning. That

(01:08):
is so funny. I remember. I asked
this question while back it's
like, is it GM or GM? Like how
do you you know, which one do
you say is like, it's always a
GM. By the way, listeners, you
know, in the NFT world or in web
three world, GM means Good
morning, I, it took me I think
about four months trying to

(01:28):
figure that out. That was so
funny. Very excited to have you
here. So before we get started,
just tell us a little bit about
who you are and what got you
into photography.
Well, um, I am mostly like a
travel and nature photographer.
But I've actually done a lot of

(01:49):
different types of photography.
But it all kind of started when
I was a child. And I just I had,
I'm 57. So I, you know, I
remember what a pocket camera
was some people in who are older
will know what that is. But it
was like kind of like this, like

(02:10):
oblong kind of rectangular like
little thing. And I and I had
one of those. And I was an
exchange student in Germany,
when I was in high school. And I
had an aunt that gave me he's
like, Oh, you seem to take good
photos. He's like, you can
borrow my SLR camera. And so she
lent me this camera. And the
funny thing is that it was a it
was totally manual, but the

(02:31):
light metre was broken. And so
if you can believe it, I just
guessed to what to set. To set
it, I actually looked at the
film that I bought, and it said,
you know, like, if it's sunny
than the US like 125, and then F
11. And so that's what I would
do. And I kind of just guessed,
and the thing is, is like, I
don't know, I was shooting
negative film. So there's some

(02:51):
leeway, but like, it seems like
that my photos like when I would
get them developed, they were
like, you know, they were
exposed properly. So but that,
so I travel, I was in school in
Germany, and I travelled around.
And then when I came back and
showed people my photos, they
were like, Oh, you have a good
eye for photography. And so when
I graduated from high school, I
asked my parents to, I said, I

(03:12):
would like to have like my own
camera, because I had given that
one back to my aunt. So then
they got me a canon. And that's
when I started, you know, I
don't know, just kind of
experimenting. And when I would
travel, I kind of mostly would
shoot whenever I would travel.
And then eventually, I couple
years after that, like in my
early 20s, I started taking

(03:33):
photography classes. So I
learned how to develop film,
like black and white
photography, and then developing
it in the dark room and
everything. And that was like a
lot of fun. And just doing the
assignments that I was given.
But early on, I actually started
photographing when I was doing
black and white, I photographed
food. And I did all these kinds
of interesting, like kind of

(03:54):
still lifes with food. And my
parents don't have some of
those, like on their walls. Some
of them were like milk and
cookies, that kind of an or like
milk and eggs and that sort of
thing. And and I guess I started
when I moved to San Francisco in
the early 90s, I started
shooting more portraits and I

(04:15):
still was taking photography
classes and I was working in an
office and somebody asked me if
they if I could take photos of
them and their boyfriend and so
I started doing portraits and
then like kind of word spreads.
And so then I started
photographing people's kids and
then like even somebody's

(04:36):
wedding, a wedding or two and
that sort of thing. So I and
after headshots and I kind of
started that's how I started
doing, like more professional
photography. And so I did kind
of start out more with
portraiture, but then when I
would travel then I would just
photograph and I would travel.
And I guess I started doing

(04:59):
travelling Like more travel,
travel photography, like, around
the year 2000 2001. And I
started shooting slides, and I
actually was accepted by a stock
agency. And that started, like
my experience with stock
agencies, which I'm sure is most

(05:21):
people know, are really like,
it's really kind of horrible
right now. But like back then,
it was a little bit different.
And it was all like slides, and
even the agency, I went in
person in San Francisco, and
would like to deliver my slides.
And, and I had some sales. I
mean, it wasn't anything huge.
But then I swear it was super

(05:42):
quick. Even just like a few
years after that, like the sales
decreased and the prices
decreased. I don't know, it
seemed like when it started with
digital photography, because
like I was excited about digital
photography, and I switched to
digital in 2004. But once it
became, it seemed like it became
easier and more accessible. And

(06:03):
people started shooting more
photos. Because like when I used
to shoot slides, I used to like,
look through my slides like on
it, I would look through my
slide with a loop, and also look
at the exposures because you had
a bracket your exposures, and I
would sit at a table and I have
a light box. And then I would
just toss the ones on the floor
that were bad like that I was

(06:24):
gonna throw away, which seems
like such a horrible waste. So
I'm kind of glad that I'm not
doing that sort of thing
anymore. That threw away like
all this film all that like
chemicals and developing and
just throwing like all these
slides away. So that's kind of
how I got into that sort of
photography. And then later on,
I actually worked as a photo

(06:45):
researcher in textbook
publishing. And that actually
was supposed to be a part time
job. And then I wanted to
basically be a full time
photographer. But I was never
very good at marketing myself.
And so I kind of stuck with the
stock photography thing. But
through my work in working for a
publisher, as a photo

(07:05):
researcher, sometimes they
needed photos to be photographed
specifically for some of the
science textbooks I was working
on. And so they started hiring
me as a photographer, so I
started shooting for the
textbook publisher. But like
professional photography was
always like a part time job for
me. So I always had like another
main job. And unfortunately,

(07:27):
like I kind of wanted like that
just to be a part time job, the
photo research and, and to be
mainly be a photographer, but I
ended up it ended up being
reversed. And I got more and
more work as a photo researcher,
and, and not as much work as a
photographer. And then just
because of the way the business
changed with textbook

(07:47):
publishing, and also stock
photography, I started doing
less and less photography, and I
didn't shoot for the publisher
anymore. And even the photo
research was going to overseas.
So I, I kind of, I'm at the
point now where I work as a
project manager and textbook
publishing, and, and then I work

(08:09):
for slike doing social media
marketing on mostly on Twitter.
And then there's still the
photography, which started I
started making more money
finally, again, on photography
because of NF T's. Because I
mean, like the stock
photography, you can actually if
you look at my sales, and the
stock agencies that I'm in, the
price is just getting lower and

(08:31):
lower and lower. And recently, I
actually had some sales. And
they gave me one cent like the
agency, two cents, and they gave
me one cent. And I'm like, Are
you kidding me?
No, 100% You know, like seeing
the market kind of move that

(08:52):
way? I mean, you know, I think
I, it took me a while to
understand that, you know,
that's not how you make money to
stock photography. And it I only
know this when I was talking to
Paul, this guy, actually the one
on the first person that I

(09:12):
interviewed in, in this podcast,
and I asked him about, you know,
stock photography, is it worth
it? And you know, the way he
approached it is the way you
approach it back then it's not
it's not going to the stock size
sites, but actually going direct
to the consumer, the people that
are looking for it, you know,
whether it's an agency or the

(09:33):
actual company, and that's how
it's being valued a lot more
compared to stock photos. But
you're right, you know, and
nowadays it's so hard because
iPhone, take a great photo,
right? Yeah. So then it's not
necessarily I mean, we all know
that in order to be a good
photographer. It's not just the

(09:54):
camera but you know, from that
the mindset kind of shift, you
know the value kinetic Freeze.
So from someone who been
shooting all the way back from
the film era, you know, to the
digital era, and now I could say
to the mobile phone era, how do
you see the value shifted along
this years? And what do you

(10:16):
think about that?
Well, it's really actually
disappointing that the value
shifted. And I mean, it depends
on the type of photography to so
like travel photography, I mean,
I mean, just kind of, if you do
photography, where you're using
models, and you're doing setups,

(10:36):
that's actually a totally
different thing. But if you're
actually shooting things like,
lens, you know, kind of
landscapes of travel, not kind
of really complicated landscape,
but the kind of there's also
just the really, like, Oh, this
is a nice landscape to show a
place you might want to travel
to, or, I mean, that was the
kind of photography that I did.
I mean, I did other things on my
own. That was kind of separate,

(10:57):
like, kind of more artistic and
stuff, but like, the main thing,
I mean, like when I first
started doing travel
photography, sorry, photography,
that wasn't also travel. I mean,
anatomy, I, some of my most
popular images were like a bowl
of potato chips, you know, so I
actually kind of was like, sort

(11:18):
of a little bit upset about
that, and like, like my
beautiful landscapes and sell,
but like this bowl of potato
chips keeps like being sold.
Although recently my most common
on Alamy, that is, has been sold
in the past, like two years is
this photo of a tree growing in
a rock what's called root root

(11:38):
wedging. So I've worked on I was
working on science textbooks and
finding political science
textbooks. And I needed to find
a photo of root wedging, it was
so difficult to find it. And
then I went on a hike and I saw
the perfect root wedge in photo.
And so I took a photo of that.
And then now people are using my
photo probably in geology
textbooks or other things to
deal with that to illustrate it.

(11:59):
So I mean, there's lots of
photography that's like that,
where you're illustrating
something for like a textbook,
or they just need a photo on an
apple or something like that.
But I mean, like, I mean, I just
can't imagine if I could take
like a better Apple than, like a
lot of other people have already
photographed in apple. But, you
know, at some point, like, it
was kind of new, and there
wasn't as many, but there's more

(12:20):
and more people in that. And as
for equipment, I mean, I can
take actually really nice photos
on my iPhone. And so, and people
can actually have the same phone
and take like crappy photos too.
So I mean, like, there it is,
has, to me, it's more, I mean,
there is like a certain quality,
if you want to enlarge
something. Yeah. Or if you want

(12:41):
to make a lot of the do a lot of
editing to it, and that sort of
thing. I mean, there is like
that quality that is not quite
the same, but I mean, like
they're getting better and
better. I mean, like, when I was
doing a shoot of some light
themes in the Redwood Forest
recently, I would actually test
the scene with my phone. And
then I would shoot with my

(13:02):
camera, and my camera had looked
really awful like in the
viewfinder, because like the
phone was like processing it.
And then also when I would get
the raw photos they was I'm
like, oh my god, I have to make
this look like my phone.
That is funny. And you're right,
like, you know, the phone are
incredible nowadays, right. And
it's with the AI and the

(13:24):
processing, you know, it helps a
lot, even though it has a small
camera. And I feel like that's
what and the other thing that
you said was also 100% Right?
You know, just because you have
a good camera doesn't make you a
better photographer. Just
because you have a an iPhone
camera doesn't make you a bad
photographer, it's a lot to do

(13:45):
with who you are as a
photographer and the way you
interpret the scene. But I think
people kind of mindset with
that, that with people with
everyone being able to take a
photo nowadays instead of you
know, doing all the settings
that kind of take away a lot of
the value, the precede value, I

(14:05):
suppose. So that was really
interesting. You know, I love
hearing your story that you
know, you started all the way
from the film trying to figure
it out and we'll do it your
digital digital. So you can
share you know how you got
started in photography and you

(14:26):
know, some of the things that
you have photography of
photograph over the this years.
But what I want to hear about
your excitement, why what type
of photography make you really
excited or what, what makes you
got into photography in the
first place that you know make
you stay there on to a point
that you want to go to school in

(14:48):
photography and learn more about
it.
You know, it's kind of this odd
thing, but it's almost like a
compulsion. Like some people say
it's a passion for them, but for
me like I feel like I really
want to, like if I see
something, I want to capture it,
like, I can't just be like, Oh,
that's cool. Like I have, I feel

(15:08):
like this, this urge to like to
preserve it. And I don't even
know if it's like to show other
people or just like to have it
for myself, maybe it's both. But
like, for instance, I also
another thing that I did in the
past was I, I did, I used to be
an aerial dancer. So I did like

(15:28):
kind of trapeze and circus
stuff, and like, aerial silks.
And I have some friends in
Seattle that have an aerial
dance company, and I used to
photograph their shows. And and
the thing is, is like, when I
photographed the show, I felt
like I can't, couldn't really
watch it, because I was so
focused on the photography. So
then when I started on doing

(15:49):
started doing was I would go and
visit them, and then I would
shoot, I would, I would just
watch once a watch a show. And
then I would do a second watch a
second show where I would do the
photography. And I thought,
Well, that's good, because I'll
prepare for it. But then the
show that I was watching and not
shooting, I just felt like oh my
god, I'm missing all these like
shots. Like all these moments,

(16:11):
even though I knew that, like I
was gonna like watch it like the
second day, like I just like, if
I if I actually just watched the
show and wasn't shooting it for
some reason. I would just be
like, I like missing out
somehow, you know, like that.
Anything. And just recently I
was in Portland, I took a it was

(16:33):
like an aerial tram there. And
there was like, it was
beautiful, clear day. And you
could see Mount Hood. And I took
a photo with my phone, because
that's my phone. This was a
camera that I have with me all
the time because I don't carry
like my equipment around all the
time. So I was there for another
reason. And so I was like, Oh,
that looks great. And I took a
photo of it in the background,
but with like the foreground of

(16:56):
a tree with like autumn leaves
on it. So then whenever I was
going back, it was sunset. And I
was like in the tram, and I'm
looking at the sunset and the
lighting on Mount Hood. And
like, oh my god, I was just
like, I couldn't like wait, I
was like Fran was gonna miss it,
you know. But I mean, the thing
is, is like I could have just
enjoyed it and looked at it, I
couldn't really photograph it
from the tram. Because there,
there were things in the way.
And also the windows were dirty.

(17:18):
So I was just like, chomping at
the bit to like, get up to the
top so that I could run out and
like go and take a photo, which
I did get it. But it was just on
the verge of almost being too
late, you know, a little bit too
dark, it would have been better
if I was there just a few
minutes early, but it's just
like, I don't know, I just I
guess I always feel it's just
like a compulsion of wanting to

(17:38):
capture a visual moment, I
guess.
Yeah, that's, that's
interesting. I also felt like
that at times, and the, you
know, what you just mentioned
about, you know, take having the
phone with you. And taking a
phone with taking a photo with a
phone is a good example how, you

(17:59):
know, the best camera that you
could own is the one that was
the one yourself, yeah, that you
have. And that is such a good
example of that saying, and
going back to what you say about
the compulsion about experience,
and it's really cool to hear how

(18:19):
you approach that photography
with the aerial dance and you
know, performances where you
want to experience it, but you
also want to take a little bit
and you combine the two by doing
different things. And it's, I
find that it's interesting. I
want to ask you, how do you
balance between, uh, trying to

(18:42):
just enjoy the moment right to
just being there and let your
eyes and your your body enjoy
the experience, whatever it is
that you have, versus taking
your camera out and actually
enjoying it to your camera,
because at the end of the day,
they're two different experience
but what you said earlier was

(19:02):
100% True. It's it's, it's not
easy to be able to have a
connection with nature, for
example, or the Milky Way for my
case, and you know, continuously
taking photo there has to be a
balance so how do you do that
when you go out there for
example, for your travel

(19:23):
photography or from some of your
other photography
Yeah, that's it's kind of Yeah,
I agree with you and sometimes I
think to myself, maybe I should
just like take photos less and
not do that. I just can't I just
can't just do it without like I
you know, I'll just be carrying
a bunch of like equipment

(19:43):
because especially like in
landscape photography, you know,
like I end up like climbing like
a mountain or something because
I like to do that sort of thing.
And it would be easier to like
not bring like photo equipment
with and admittedly when I go
backpacking, I don't bring a
tripod like I'm kind of focused
I'm just like the trip. But I do
bring my camera I try to bring

(20:04):
something as live as possible.
It's one of the reasons I
switched to mirrorless because I
was tired of lugging my Canon
gear around. And I actually
didn't go for full frame. I have
a Fuji fuji film, I went for the
crop sensor because it had
smaller lenses. So I was like, I
don't want to have a tiny camera
with a giant lens, just like my
old lenses. I have my Canon, you

(20:25):
know? So. But I mean, yeah, I
mean, I torture myself for
photography, like dragging
tripods around. I even went into
this, like tiny this, like the
slot canyon that you can barely
walk through with a tripod
monopod would have been better,
honestly. But like, so yeah, but

(20:47):
I just wanted, I wanted the
shots. And so I wanted to it's I
guess it's not it's the
compulsion to capture a moment,
but to create something out of
the moment. You know, what,
like, it is I don't know, if
it's a compulsion for others.
Have you heard other people say
that, that it feels like that,
like, you just have to do it.
I mean, I felt the same, you

(21:08):
know, ie, I used to do that. And
when I first probably the first
two years of my photography, I
was I was like that, you know,
every single moment, I want to
capture it. I literally have my
camera, which I have a five d
mark for so it's really heavy,
right? Massive camera, and I

(21:28):
would take it everywhere, even
just for for a dinner or for
lunch. But I decided that I want
to, you know, it separate myself
from the people and the actual
experience. So I started to step
back a little bit. And yeah,

(21:49):
it's interesting that you
mentioned that, because I
haven't heard people mentioning
that. But I know that, you know,
it is in us, you know, we love
photography. And photography is
about moment, right? So when
there is good moment for power,
it's only natural that we want
to capture it. It's in our
blood.
What if there's people in that

(22:10):
moment, actually taking photos
actually changes the moment to I
feel like that it does. And
although I kind of I used to
take the photos, more people,
and then I kind of It wasn't
intentional that I kind of
veered away from that. And then
until I was hardly photographing
people anymore, like when I was

(22:30):
doing travel photography, I
always had a lot of people
photos in there. And then I kind
of shifted and then it became
like more of nature and animals
and and I kind of actually kind
of missed that. And I kind of
feel like maybe I shouldn't
like, and I forget to do
snapshots. Like like when I was
travelling in Iceland, I
travelled a bit with two friends

(22:51):
that live in Europe. And and
both of them if it wasn't for
them, it I probably would never
I wouldn't have any pictures of
us or them. I mean, maybe I
might take a picture of them.
Like if they were kind of like a
person in the landscape. Like my
one friend had a red jacket. It
was awesome. And so she was like
my red jacket person and all
these like landscapes. But like
I wouldn't think of like doing

(23:11):
like a selfie or asking someone,
hey, take a picture of us
together. Like, it's not that I
don't want that I actually nice
to have it like when it's over.
But like, I don't even think
about it. Like I'm always like
thinking about like creating
like a scene rather than just
like taking a picture of us.
You know, I know exactly how
that feel. I think about a

(23:34):
couple years back, you know,
someone asked me it's like, Hey,
can you send me your your
portrait or a photo of you and I
was like trying to think I don't
have one. Like literally, I went
through all of my photo, I don't
have a good photo of me looking
at the camera. Every one of them
is from my back. So I know
exactly how you feel. And yeah,

(23:55):
it's interesting to be you know,
a landscape, or you know, a
travel photographer, because
most of the time you're in the
back of the camera. So it's
really cool hearing your story,
really hearing how you
transition across, you know,
from the film to digital, you
actually learn everything, you

(24:17):
know, the settings, you actually
get thrown into the settings
because the Otomo Diem work on
your favourite first camera or
your camera at that time. And I
find that really cool. Now, when
it comes to doing photography as
a way to make a living, is that
something you always wanted to
do? Or do you always try? You

(24:40):
always you only want to do that
part time to preserve the
experience of being a
photographer itself?
Well, that's interesting
question because yes, I my dream
job was as many people have the
same dream job of like being
like a National Geographic
photographer, like Travelling
the world and having like

(25:01):
assignments and like doing
something really super
interesting. And that was kind
of always in my mind and like, I
know that I could create kind
of, even just for myself have
like an idea and do a shoot like
that. But it's, I just kind of,

(25:22):
I don't know, I just kind of
never have done it, I guess I
kind of was afraid. I know, that
was one thing that I didn't take
a lot of risks, and always had
like a backup job, and never
tried just to be a photographer.
And I did work in photography,

(25:42):
because I was like, as a photo
researcher, and then I was doing
a lot of photography within that
job also. But to just be a
freelance photographer and try
to make money and I actually
never I tried to be a commercial
photographer. I never had the
guts to see like, say, like, I
want to be a fine art
photographer. I just felt like

(26:02):
that was just like, so
unattainable. I mean, but I know
there are people that do that,
but I just didn't have it in me
to try for that. So and I have
gone through periods of time
where I was shooting, I was
trying to shoot for stock, or I
was just shooting for like the
textbook, you know, I shot food.

(26:25):
One thing that I really one of
the best jobs that I've ever
had. The super interesting was I
was for the textbook publisher,
I photographed the dissection of
two cadavers for an anatomy
textbook. And that was really
interesting. And I often will
say that that was one of the
best jobs I ever had, because it
was just so fascinating. And it
was very lucrative too. And I, I

(26:50):
even thought to myself, maybe I
should be a Cadabra
photographer. But I don't know
if I always want to do that. And
be around all the familiar
formaldehyde. And I don't think
there's that many calls. I mean,
only for like, kind of like
textbooks and that sort of
thing, like medical books or
something. But, but it was a
super cool experience. And so I

(27:12):
did have some interesting
things. But if you only start to
it, and somebody that I met
recently, actually is a
photographer in that, and I
said, What kind of photography
do you do? And he says, I do
photography that people will pay
me if somebody pays him and he
photographs and he doesn't
photograph in any other way. And
I'm like, I mean, that's fine.

(27:33):
Like, if you have a technical
skill, you can do that. And like
and I actually had gotten to a
certain point, probably about
like, maybe nine years ago,
where I just felt burned out
because I was just I would
photograph and people pay me
like the textbook publisher, or
sometimes I did. I actually
photographed marijuana for like
a dispensary like America where

(27:54):
that was interesting too. Or
like products I did like
products and stuff like that.
But I kind of got burned out a
little bit because I just was
shooting just to make just
because someone was paying me or
I would think that I might make
money like just doing the stock
photography. And so then I
started doing some long exposure
photography. Just like for

(28:16):
myself, I did some self
portraits with long exposure
where I was a ghost accom is
that my ghost photos. And I
really love my ghost photos are
some of my favourite photos I've
ever taken. Although I feel like
other people don't like them as
much as me. I mean, like some
people, my friends seem to
really like them. Like people
that know me. But other people

(28:37):
are seemed kind of lukewarm
about, like ghost photos, but
so, but those kind of were
photos for me and I kind of like
sparked like, kind of some
creativity. Like I was just
shooting photography. I was just
shooting just to create
something to be creative. Not
like because I someone was

(28:58):
paying me.
Yeah, that's incredible. So is
that how you got out of your
burnout? That's how I got off my
burger. Oh, that's fantastic.
And that's, that's really
interesting, right? Um, we I
haven't heard anyone who got
into photography because they
want to make a lot of money.

(29:18):
Right? Even the people who
decide to do photography as a
profession, they started it
because they enjoy photography,
you know, they and they just
want to do more of it. But over
time, the money aspect cannot
hit you and you know, you become
burnout because you you stop
creating for yourself and so
forth. So when you had this

(29:41):
burnout, and then you find a way
to get out of it. What did you
learn? Like how did you stop?
Stop it from happening again so
that you don't get the same
burnout you know, in a year two
years or five years and so
forth.
Well actually, that kind of
stopped because I stopped I
stopped getting paying jobs like

(30:01):
doing photography for the
textbook publisher, and I kind
of just didn't, I just didn't do
that anymore. And then I just
basically then just was, that's
when I kind of veered more into
landscape photography, because
that's what I just felt I just
did what I felt like doing. And
then I put those in stock
agencies and if they sold and
that was fine. So I kind of

(30:22):
stopped pursuing kind of more of
a commercial photography, and
just shot what I felt like
shooting. And yeah, I also
didn't make that much money from
it either. So and then, of
course, the stock was just
putting in the stock agency. So
yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. So
you basically just, you know, do
photography more for yourself.

(30:43):
And stop, start, you know, doing
it for everyone else. And
I mean, it goes through phases,
it's like, if something like for
instance, I'm going to Florida
next week to visit my parents,
but I love to photograph the
birds when I go to Florida. So I
feel I'll feel excited. Like, I
haven't been shooting since I
got back from Iceland. Well, I
have like 1700 photos, I need to

(31:03):
like, you know, go through and
process. So like, that's time
consuming. But I'm kind of like
in a resting phase right now.
And I'm not, I haven't been with
only been like, a little over a
month since I was back. But I
think that like, you know, when
I go to Florida, I'll I'll do
some photography of birds,
because I always like, like to

(31:23):
photograph the birds there. Oh,
that's fantastic.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
You know, it's, it's funny how
it kind of worked that way with
photography and careers. And
sometimes you can hit the wall
because you stop creating and
being genuine about what you
want from your photography. So

(31:45):
thanks a lot for sharing that.
So one thing that I'm curious,
he told us that you are part of
the soyka team, you know, doing
their marketing. But in the
beginning, you told us that you
weren't very good at marketing.
And now you gotta jump into
marketing, right. And I know
that as an artist, like I was, I

(32:08):
was struggling with marketing
law, I think I am still
struggling, but I am much
better, you know, at least I
kind of know what I'm doing. But
it's just like, you know, the
struggle with myself, doing
marketing is just very
difficult, because I'm more a
creative person, you know, a
sailing sort of person. Now, how

(32:29):
do you transition across,
because we know that if you do
want to make if you don't want
to sell your photography, if you
do want to make money from your
photography, you need to be able
to market your photography, your
art out there. And we have seen
this over and over again, where
people who have incredible
images, but not a good marketing

(32:51):
skills, aren't able to sell
their photograph versus people
who have, you know, a decent
photograph. They're like,
nothing crazy, but it's, it's,
it's good. It's not superb or
excellent or, you know, crazy
beautiful, but they are able to
sell. So what have you learned
from this experience, so that

(33:12):
the listeners can take, you
know, pieces away from that and
apply it to their own journey?
Well, I think for one thing,
it's easier to market somebody
else's art than your own. And
that's like kind of known. And
so that's why the NFT space on
Twitter is so nice, because
people are always like, are
helping each other. And when I

(33:34):
first entered the NFT space, I
only had like 68 followers on
Twitter. And if I would tweet
something like nobody would see
it or comment or anything. And,
and I was able to, like early
November, to basically like
January 1 To go from 68 to 800

(33:55):
followers. I basically build up
my followers and kind of just
jumped right into the NFT space.
And I kind of I don't know, I
became good at Twitter,
basically. But all I did was I
just interact, I was really
excited. And I was excited by

(34:15):
like, everyone's photos that I
was seeing on there. And so I
was kind of very hyper tweeting.
I tweeted like crazy. I like
retweeted everybody's work and
was excited and like said all
that I just kind of interacted
with so many people that it's
just and then I started doing
those like art threads where I
remember the first one I did was
on New Year's Eve and I thought

(34:37):
oh, probably because I saw other
people do them. And I thought
well, maybe I'll get more
followers and more like, you
know, interaction by by doing
that, and I did it. I put a
photo of a lone tree that was my
own and I said share your loan
trees with me. And I thought oh,
it's New Year's Eve. There's no
one's no one's didn't even
respond. It was huge. I mean,
there was like, I mean, I think

(34:57):
that there was like, I don't
know how many retweets but like
eight 100 likes and like, it
just exploded. And I was like,
whoa. And so then I kept doing
that. But the thing is, is like,
whenever I was doing those, I
was kind of trying to save
something and retweet on almost
every photo that somebody put
there. And there was a lot of
there was like hundreds and
hundreds of them. And it was

(35:18):
very time consuming. So
basically, I got to that point
from, by being on Twitter,
almost like 16 hours a day or
something. I was basic on
Twitter, like almost an entire
day, because my work is slow in
the winter with my textbook
publishing. And so it was kind
of like, you know, like,
November, December, and I was
just kind of on Twitter, like a

(35:39):
lot, and interacting with a lot
of people. And I was kind of
successful at building my own
Twitter following. And so with
sloka, I took silica from 2500
I, whenever they were hiring
somebody, I applied for the job.
And then they decided to give me
a chance. And then I think at
the end of January, I think
there's like 2500 followers. And

(36:01):
then by maturity, we hit 17,000.
But we hit 17,000 In September,
but I think it was in the first
few months that it got to like
10,000 pretty fast, probably
within like two or three months.
So I kind of just did the same
thing for Flickr that I did. So
my job for them, the marketing
is kind of just like operates
mostly just operating the
Twitter. And yeah,

(36:24):
so yeah, that's cool. That's
really cool. And I
think the key is to interact,
it's just said, it's very time
consuming. I mean, for me in the
NFT space, it was being in
being, it was very helpful to be
in a collective, because I was

(36:45):
involved in being a collective
in like May. And I got to know
like a lot of photographers in
that collective like really like
more so than just kind of in the
space. And also in like chat
groups. And it being in spaces
is important too. But like
that's like, so time consuming.

(37:05):
And I often will try to do that
and then work at the same time.
And it kind of doesn't really
work because I don't pay
attention to the space. And I
don't pay attention to my work.
But I have done that I tried to
be doing that like many times,
but so it was kind of a little
bit frustrating. But it was
basically just another thing.

(37:26):
That was important. When I first
started entering the space, like
when I was a beginner, I felt
like lost. And I kind of like
dug around and found information
even just what like Good morning
means and friends. And like all
this kind of like lingo that
people used. I kind of had to
figure out on my own and I could
ask people but nobody offered,
no one came up and say, Oh,

(37:46):
you're new here, like, let me
help you. And the thing is, like
once I was kind of got used to
it and learned it myself, I
actually when new people would
come in the space, I would
actually help them. And I
discovered I really liked doing
that. And, and I kept doing it.
And that's how it was like kind
of I mean, I don't know when you
entered the NFT world on

(38:08):
Twitter, but like, it was kind
of so many people and just kind
of wild in like November,
December, January, February.
Yeah. Last year, beginning of
this year, so, but yeah, 100 So
that wasn't necessarily I
learned that I learned that I
really I enjoyed helping people,
it made me feel like I had a
purpose because I'm kind of some

(38:29):
sometimes I'm struggling with
that, like feeling like kind of
having a strong purpose in life.
Cool, thanks a lot for sharing
that. Yeah. I mean, you know,
it's, that's, that's really
cool, you know, just trying to
figure it out. And I know, NFT
is really difficult space to get
into a lot of people, it's a

(38:50):
difficult concept to learn and
to understand as well. So, you
know, you figuring it out and to
helping the people who can jump
in there and onboarding, I think
that's a really cool thing to
do. Yeah, you know, thanks a lot
for doing that because that's
really helps open up the world.
NFT now, we starting to get into

(39:13):
the NFT world here and you know,
the listeners out there might
have heard of it might not have
heard of it. But there are a lot
of scepticism behind the NFT
right. Is it real? Is it a scam?
Like what is this? So I'm quite
interesting interested to hear

(39:33):
what who you are into the NFT
world and what do you think
about NFT?
Well, I'm glad you asked me that
question because what pulled me
into it like when I entered this
went on I found this little
community I found the community
on Twitter what pulled me in was
in like to hear these like
success stories. That is what

(39:54):
pulled me in. And I was like I
want to be part of this because
I want to be part of some One
thing that is going to change
this because I really felt like
I wanted it to change, it just
seemed unfair. And, and so just,
it was basically people's
stories that and I was just
excited, like I, I saw a lot of,

(40:17):
there's a lot of
astrophotography that I saw in
the very beginning, like the
Milky Way photography, and I was
just like, so wild by that. And
I was like, ah, you know, and I
kind of was just seeing
everyone's beautiful work, it's
just kind of was exciting. And
there was like this kind of, I
mean, I as since we're in a bear
market, as you know, like, it's

(40:38):
not the same anymore, but, but
there's people still excited
about it. And, and still excited
about photography, because I
mean, you can't just put
photography only in NF T's I
mean, I actually made some some
money, like a hell of a lot more
than I did whatever I was, you
know, from stock photography. So

(40:58):
I mean, that's like, kind of,
and it also inspired me to try
new things like I got a drone
this summer, and I flew my drone
in Iceland, and I actually
really love love that. And I
really want to explore that. And
I also, I photographed the Milky
Way for the first time, this
like summer also. And I still

(41:18):
haven't processed it. I mean, I
kind of started but I kind of
felt like a little bit lost. So
I, but I'll see, you know how it
goes and then figure out how to
do it properly. But it was a
crater lake.
Beautiful. Alright, to lations
on your first meal QA will go
on. I mean, I'm an astro

(41:39):
photographer, and I teach Astro
photography as well. So when
whenever people say I just take
my first Astro photography, I
got really excited. But how is
that experience? I know he kind
of I'll bring it back to NFT.
But I just don't know, how is
that experience being able to
capture the Milky Way for the
very first time?

(42:00):
Well, what was interesting is
like when I we, I've seen, of
course, I've seen the Milky Way,
but not actually not I've not
been in situations where I've
seen it that often. And so I
have this memory of it, but I
didn't photograph it. And it
looks. It was a beautiful night,
very clear at Crater Lake. But
it's not as distinct as it is in

(42:22):
the photos. It's kind of like
the roar Borealis, it's the same
like you can see it with your
eye, but it's not. And I did see
that in Iceland on two different
trips and photographed that. And
it looks it's more dramatic
whenever you actually photograph
it than it is when you actually

(42:43):
just look at it. And so that's
how I feel like it is with like
the Milky Way photos. And I
actually met somebody that I met
off Twitter. And we actually
photographed together because
she was travelling to Crater
Lake. And she mentioned it and
she's actually experienced with

(43:03):
it's r1 I don't know if you know
r1 But like, yeah, so she, I
kind of learned like a bit from
her kind of watching what what
she did also, so but I do want
to try it again. But it is feel
like that it's it's it's rather
complicated. Just I think the

(43:26):
postprocessing even more than
the shooting part. But if it
wasn't for her like so it was
kind of amazing. But it was also
like really uncomfortable,
because it was a wind picked up.
And it was like really freezing.
There was still snow. It was
June but there was still snow,
where we were and it wasn't cold

(43:46):
actually like temperature wise
where we were at the parking
lot. But when we went to the
area where we needed to shoot it
from, it was just the wind
picked up and it was just like
freezing. So it was kind of my
first experience was like kind
of uncomfortable physically,
because then you have to keep
waiting and like doing these
really long exposures. So and

(44:07):
she did really super long, she
did some that were like five
minutes disabused, like these
ones that were super long. And
then, you know, shooting like,
several photos to later piece
together as a panorama.
Panorama. Yeah, that's really
cool. It's actually not
complicated at all. And I could

(44:28):
you know, once you know, the ins
and outs, it's not complicated
at all. And, you know, that's,
that's why I teach the
astrophotography because a lot
of people are thinking it's
complicated, but it's actually
pretty simple once you know the
step by step process. So yeah,
we can, you know, if you have
time, I'm happy or you know, we
can do it some other time. I'm

(44:49):
happy to help you with the post
processing or whatever question
you have. Sorry, I just got
excited. That
is exciting. I wanted to I
didn't, I was interested in that
and wanted to, like, try to do
it myself. So I guess that kind
of like makes me feel like,
okay, I should make go back and
try to process those photos that

(45:10):
I that I took, I can't
wait to see it, I can't wait to
see, it will be great. So when
you get into the coming back to
the NFT, right? You got there
because you felt like there are
more value to your photography,
instead of people paying three
cents for your photograph, you
actually get something that

(45:31):
worthwhile, right, something of
value. And we know that money is
important. But as an artist, I
think there's something more
important behind that the fact
that our art is being valued for
what it is, it doesn't matter
what genre it is. And that was,
you know, how I felt. Now, when
you when you come into the NFT

(45:53):
world, and you know, what we
have right now? Do you have? How
does your expectation, you know,
or you know, what you imagine it
to be versus the reality, what
was some of the goods and Bad's
within the space that we need to
improve upon, you know, because
we want to bring more people in

(46:14):
this space, but there's so many,
I suppose, scepticism negative
talk around it. So, I'd like to
hear a little bit from your
perspective, especially working
from one of the platform, right,
you will get a lot of exposure
to this, in terms of, you know,
people saying this or that and,
you know, different people

(46:34):
opinion, what are some of the
things that you see are a good
point, and they are some of the
things that we could improve
upon in this space?
Well, I mean, What initially
attracted me to it was also that
like, there's a problem with a
caste Samar addressed this in
one of her early NF T's where

(46:56):
she liked the Hawaii photo where
she released that because people
kept stealing it, you know,
because, as a photo researcher,
a lot of times authors of
textbooks think, and I think
just people in general, they
think that because something on
the internet, like you can just
use it like, oh, yeah, it's like
everywhere, like, you know, but
I mean, that's not true. I mean,

(47:17):
there's like, you know, you have
to get permission to use it,
unless the person specifically
says that anybody can use it.
And, and so people will just
steal things off the internet,
and just use them as they wish.
And so, I mean, she sold that
NFT for like, I don't know, like
100 Aetherium. I don't know what
that would have been at the
time, like a huge amount of

(47:38):
money. Like, I don't know, like
$300,000 or something like that.
But she released it to the world
that anybody could use it,
although she wanted to be
credited. And I kind of was
really, like, inspired by that.
I was actually very inspired by
her because I heard her story, I
watched a video of how she came

(47:59):
into the NFT world, and, and how
she had no work because of COVID
because of like, she wasn't able
to do like the photography
workshops. So I think just kind
of like solidifying ownership,
like saying, okay, like it's
kind of like this mark like this
is I am the creator of this
piece of digital art, like, you

(48:20):
know, I think that is good about
NF Ts. And also, I think in the
future too, like, if you
purchase when I first started in
selling NF Ts, I was selling
photos, my first things I sold
photos of were went redwood
forest, and if someone bought an
NF t then I would donate money

(48:42):
to save the redwoods
organisation. And that is I see
someone recently that has, like
there's other and other other
people that have fundraisers
where if you purchase an NF t
like 100% of it will go to like
as a donation. I mean, you can
just ask for donations but I
mean it's actually common if you

(49:02):
do donation sometimes if you do
some donations to something you
can times get like a physical
product or some kind of product
in return for that like as a
thank you and NF Ts can be also
used for something like that.
And I think that there in the
future there can be a lot of
various uses for it not just for

(49:25):
art and I am not very involved
in the kind of like the profile
picture you know, like the apes
and punks and all that like I
I'm not really involved in that
so I don't really have much
knowledge about about that
aspect of it. And I think that's
what most people who aren't
involved in it that's what they

(49:45):
think about because that's
what's like in the in the media
because those are the ones that
are have gotten, you know, for
so much money and people hear
about so that's what they think
NF T's are that they're only
that. Yeah, that's a really good
point. You know, I saw, I know
what you're talking about with
Cassie Mart, early campaign, and

(50:07):
it was I think it was one of
her. I think one of the biggest
one that she had I know she, you
know, she had a crazy sales even
before that. I mean, she said
she's phenomenal photographer,
and just so inspiring. But yeah,
for the listener who kind of
don't know, the context,
basically, that Hawaii photo has
been stolen over and over again,

(50:27):
where it's been reposted, and
been used as a licence item
without her getting paid. And
she would show this crazy list
of, you know, disputes against
them. And, you know, at the end
of the day, she say, put that as
an NFT. And she got, probably,
you know, all her all the worth

(50:49):
of that whole photo over the
lifetime of it and even more,
right, and I think that's,
that's so empowering, that is
just so empowering to the
artists, you know, the fact that
we need to share our photograph
out there, but most of the time,
when we share our photographs in
the internet, it would get
stolen. And nothing is solved

(51:13):
some of that problem. I know,
it's not 100% there yet, but
we're still early. And like you
say, you know, with the
donations and charities, you
know, I see going forward where
we, you know, it all just
happens seamlessly through the
smart contract without people
being there. And that kind of
cow cut a lot of corruption.

(51:34):
And, you know, basically people
stealing away from it, because
it goes directly to the people.
Of course, at the end of the
day, you know, people aren't one
behind it. So there's always a
chance, but it cut a lot of that
down. So that's, that's what's
really cool about it. And I love
that you brought that up. Well,

(51:54):
thank you very much for being
here in person. And it's, it's
great to have the conversation
with you, you know, hearing your
photography journey, also, how
you got into the NFT. And a
little bit about the NF t as
well. Now, one thing that I
always ask my guests on every
single podcast is that if there
is an advice, one advice,

(52:16):
whether it's a life advice,
photography, advice, whatever
advice, it could be, that you
could tell either your younger
self or someone else in the
space in the social media in
your community, what would that
advice be?
Well, I would say to myself and
others also is, well, I wish I

(52:36):
would have taken more risk in
trying to pursue photography.
Now not just as like, say, like
an artist, but as kind of like
my dream, kind of National
Geographic photographer. I mean,
not specifically just for
National Geographic, but that
style of story, like kind of a

(52:56):
photo story, but just just doing
basically not settling for just
any job. And just because it was
more secure. You know, I mean, I
guess I was actually lucky that
I had a job that was related to
photography. And and now with
silica that's still my textbook

(53:17):
job is not really is related to
photography anymore. It's
project management. But it used
to be more photography and
photography was involved in it.
So, but I feel like I wish I and
it's not like I'm still around.
So I mean, I can still change.
And I have been inspired
recently by all of the, you
know, like the Twitter
photography community, I feel

(53:38):
inspired to try new things. I'm
actually interested in trying
like more like I always have
done very realistic photography,
and I actually want to try kind
of changing things. I mean, it's
just art then I mean, I mean,
it's art, it's photography and
art, like digital art combined,
or even even learning even
learning like 3d. If I can, I

(54:00):
don't know, just to kind of
experiment with things. Because
I always was like shooting
something as it was real, very
real. That's how I've always
like, done it. But yeah, I think
like, at least try try more. I
mean, try. Take, I mean, not
unreasonable risks, but I feel
like I wish I would have taken

(54:20):
more risks in trying to pursue
like my dream career.
Fantastic. That's such a great
advice. I know how that feel.
And you know, I've been there I
used to be an engineer and you
know, literally drop everything
to become a photographer. So I
know exactly how that feel and
seems like you're in that
journey. And I know a lot of

(54:41):
other people who are in the
journey as well, to get there.
And like you say, right, it's
it's important to, to get out of
to get out of your comfort zone
and to change to do something
that makes you happy. Whatever
it is. I think that is our big
purpose in life so thank you

(55:02):
very much for sharing that
advice. That is so beautiful.
Now for the listeners out there
who I know that you have an NFT
project on Slaker as well like a
collection there and you know
you have beautiful photograph as
well. So for the people who and
listeners who want to see more

(55:23):
of your work who want to get in
touch with you and connect with
you, what would be the best way
to connect with you?
Um, I would say probably like on
Twitter or like my website like
I have a website, wander wander
less photos.com And so I can be
contacted through my website or

(55:44):
on Twitter or Instagram like any
of those or Facebook even, like
all the usual places
fantastic. Yeah, we'll include
that in in the description
below. So if you want to check
out more of her work, you know,
she what, what she's doing in
any of these spaces as well as
in a photography space, and all
this beautiful photograph or

(56:05):
from her travel, you know, I
encourage you to give her a
visit and say hi in social
media. But thank you very much
for being here. It's been such a
pleasure talking to you. I
enjoyed you know, having that
conversation and listening to
your to your journey. I really
do appreciate having you in the
podcast.

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Ep 51 - Earning cents through stock website is an insult, with NFT artists can finally make a living - Kristin Piljay

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 51 - Earning cents through stock website is an insult, with NFT artists can finally make a living - Kristin Piljay