August 29, 2024 • 49 mins
In this episode, our President and Executive Producer Luyang Jiang visits artist Alicja Kwade in her Berlin studio. In the first part of the conversation, Alicja shares how she relates to the art market as an established artist, and her advice for young artists on putting themselves out into the world.
Then, listen as she reveals her childhood story of how she ended up moving from Poland to Germany, her path to becoming an artist, and the ways influences from science and philosophy in her work reveal our shared humanity.
Finally, Alicja discusses how her studio practice has grown and evolved to accommodate major public art projects and her ever-busier schedule.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Luyang Jiang (00:02):
Welcome to the Baer Faxt Podcast.
I'm your host and executiveproducer, Luyang Jiang.
This episode is broughtto you by David Zoner.
They also have a greatpodcast called Dialogues.
Give you a lesson after this episode.
Our guest today is artist Alicia Cuada.
Alicia is known internationally forher sculptures, expensive public
installations, films, photography,and works on paper that challenge
(00:27):
our perceptions of scientificand philosophical concepts.
which are showcased in leading artinstitutions globally and in high demand
in both the primary and secondary markets.
I have a lot of questions about herpersonal and artistic journey, but
from what I have seen of her work, Iknow she's someone who isn't afraid
to tackle some tough questions.
(00:49):
So, on a sunny afternoon in early June,I sat down with her in her Berlin studio.
Instead of starting with her childhoodand how she became an artist, which
you will hear about later in thisepisode, I decided to dive right
into a topic that many artistsmight shy away from, the art market.
I asked her what she thinksabout the role of artists in
(01:12):
understanding the dynamics of theart world, including the art market.
And the pricing of their works.
I
Alicja Kwade (01:22):
have a bit mixed feelings about that because I think it's not
that most people are too shy about it.
It's kind of hard to emotionallyunderstand the art market as an artist.
Because it's so different to what you do,at the need and, I mean, like the biggest
desire, but like a need, like a addiction.
So it's kind of hard to really emotionallyunderstand this kind of market.
(01:44):
I can, personally, I canintellectually understand it, but
I cannot emotionally understand it.
That's why it's also hard for me tounderstand auctions, for example.
I'm not getting the pointwhy pieces on auctions are so
much more expensive sometimes.
From a living artist, you couldjust go next door to a gallery
and buy it for half price.
I'm not getting the point really.
I mean, I can get it.
(02:04):
Of course, I can get it from thedynamics a bit of the art market,
but still it feels not like, uh, Ithink it's such a, yeah, different
kind of way of thinking and feeling.
So it's kind of difficult for mostartists to adapt on that really honestly.
That's why they better step away.
But it's also many cliches,you know, saying, okay, we have
nothing to do with the art market.
(02:25):
You know, we leave it or theother, but I don't think so at all.
On the other hand, that's why,you know, in there, for example, I
mean, I'm going to art first quitea lot, uh, and I like to see it.
I, I kind of like to see what's going on.
It's, it's, for me, it's like,you know, I can like, just in a
couple of hours, I know what all mycolleagues are doing right now, what
the prices are, who's showing whom.
Who's supporting whom, you know, I'malways like reading like, you know,
(02:47):
like at each unlimited or something.
And I'm like, okay, which gallery isdoing this or this or being honest.
It's interesting for me.
So I'm very well informed afterI left an art for example.
But then of course there's the saying,and you know, I hear it every time
people see me on an art market, it'slike this Baldassare saying, like
an artist on an art front is likewatching your parents having sex.
Well, but that is like 30 yearsago as well, you know, we're like
(03:09):
this roles of being as galleristor as a salesperson and curator
and an artist have been very clear.
So everybody had his rule back then.
That's my feeling.
I mean, I've been not really inthe art market in the 80s, but
that's what I kind of imagined.
And it's still, I kind of getto know, you know, when I kind
of started in the artwork.
So I think it was a veryclear, you know, setup.
(03:30):
Who's doing what, and the artist wasthe artist, you know, like, it was, you
know, fun to have them drunk and crazy.
There was, like, the intellectualcurator, and there was the mean
shark, you know, the business person.
But now it gets, you know, theworld is changing, and it gets
much softer, those kind of borders,due to the access to different
medias, due to many, many things.
There is a couple of artists, and I'mincluding myself to this group actually,
(03:52):
who are very aware of what they do.
And about their prices, about, youknow, which pieces are going where,
and to whom, and you know, aboutthe inventories and all of that.
I am controlling that pretty much,and I am very aware of what I do.
I guess, I mean, I believe at least.
So I think, you know, thoseborders are getting softer.
Even, you know, the term to berepresented by a gallery seems like
(04:14):
a bit kind of odd because it's like,what do you mean it's represented?
Represented is like, you know,having an artist on your silver
tray and showing it to the world.
I don't know.
You know, but in most cases thatis also another story right now.
I think it's more shifting towardslike a corporation than, you
know, being someone's artist.
But this is what my feeling on the onehand, but as I said in the beginning, on
(04:36):
the other hand, still this dynamics of theart market, really, you know, of all these
auctions and sales and stuff like that.
This is so different to my own, youknow, spot of interest and my own kind
of Priorities and my own sources thatit still is very abstract to me and I
(04:56):
also don't feel super sure about it.
So it's for me, it's super hard to judge.
For example, if my design auctions,I have no idea if it should get, if
it's good, if it's sold very high orif it's not good, if it's, you know,
just for the average or it's good.
If it falls through sometimes, it's kindof hard for me to follow this logic.
Luyang Jiang (05:16):
So recently I've been talking to some couple young artists
that I recommend them to listen toour podcast for a couple episodes,
including one artist in Finland.
He's still in the art academy.
And he said, wow, that's fascinating.
I didn't even know all those terms.
And I think since we launchedthe Bare Facts podcast from last
March, there's a reason why wedon't have that many artists yet.
(05:36):
Such as this topic, when I saidearlier, people tend to kind
of shy away from this topic.
It's like, oh, hey, I'm an artist.
I shouldn't talk aboutart market or my price.
But I guess there's a kind of balance.
I mean, from what I see is, like, theyoung artist told me, he said, it's
so good to know what's out there.
I mean, including when you talkabout the gallery representation.
(05:57):
For young artists, it's really hard.
They said, you know, I make art,of course, I want more people
to see, but I have no clue.
I don't have a team.
I have no clue how I getmore people to see my art.
This young artist, by theway, I was introduced by our
designer who made our table.
And he saw our artworks becausewe buy artworks and then we
have pieces in the house.
And then he's like, oh,you should see this one.
(06:19):
And I saw his booth.
I saw this painting.
So I asked him tointroduce me to the artist.
That's how I found it.
But at the same time, the artists,many of them, I met them, they're
still kind of building up their career.
And I personally, I don't believe thatpeople say artists has to be starving
artists in order to make good art.
And that's why I wanted to ask thequestion, you know, because you are
(06:39):
considered as more established artists.
I wonder for, especially foryounger artists, how should they,
you know, define their role withthe interaction with the art world?
Alicja Kwade (06:49):
I think there's two sides, you know.
There's when you're also growingin your role, you know, and
that's hard to kind of describe.
But I think the only thing to doas a young artist is being visible.
You have just to use any chance you'regetting to make yourself visible.
And this is kind of, you know,multiplying your chances because you
just need one person to support you.
(07:10):
You know, you don't needthe whole world to love you.
In the beginning, you need one curatorwho kind of, you know, seen it, discovered
it, and is putting in your show.
Or one gallerist who believes in thepieces and he's starting to work with you.
Or one collector who is kindof, you know, fascinated by it.
You know, there shouldbe not too much pressure.
It's not that you needlike a complete system.
You need one, two, three people,and then it goes further.
(07:32):
But to reach out to those people,of course you need to be visible.
And I still believe that it's betterto be physically visible somehow.
I mean, of course you can doInstagram and all of that, but
there's so much things going on.
So it's a little bit hard to fill out, Ithink, but I think, you know, any group
shows, whatever, you know, and people arestill looking at that things, you know,
they're passing by the seats, hangingsomewhere and somebody's whatever, you
(07:55):
know, flat, you know, give it away, justdo it, you know, get it out for free.
And nobody's paying inthe beginning, of course.
I mean, it takes a while.
But then about, because it'sinteresting what you said, you
know, about the suffering artistsand the role of the artists.
And of course, we all know that.
I mean, it's an empty cliché, you know.
Um, most of artists we still know from arthistory have not been suffering artists.
(08:17):
I mean, there's a fewexceptions, but just a few.
Most of them, um, beingestablished and making a possibly
quite good life out of that.
Not all of them, I'm not saying, butit's, you know, it's this cliche because
this cliche is like a desire, you know?
I mean, that's a funny role.
That's like a game, right?
The cliche of the collector,who is this very rich person,
(08:38):
you know, kind of established inhis work and life and whatever.
And then there's a poor, you know, butmind free artist who is looking for,
you know, wants to change the world.
And then the rich person is buying,you know, kind of a, you know, Peace
of this free mind probably you knowof this idea of this kind of spirit,
but this is a cliche of course It'snot not always like that, right?
(09:00):
I mean there's differentconstellations, but what I kind of
learned also not to live with thiskind of idea of a role It's fine.
I mean, this is how the worldkind of functions, you know,
everybody has to play his part.
And if it's until it's notharming anyone, it's well out.
Luyang Jiang (09:19):
After the break, I'll talk to Alicia about her childhood,
how she ended up moving to Germanywith her family from Poland in the 80s.
And how her school days andexperiences as an immigrant shaped
her artistic path later in life.
Will Griffith (09:37):
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcast is
brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is aboutartists and the way they think,
with each episode featuring aconversation with artists, writers,
filmmakers, and musicians exploringwhat it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations withartists like Njideka Akunyili
(09:57):
Crosby, Elizabeth Payton, and more.
Rikrit Tiravani and so many moresubscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Luyang Jiang (10:08):
You moved to Germany with your family when you were eight, right?
Alicja Kwade (10:11):
I mean, moved is probably not the right term, to be honest.
You know, I believe that weare going on a summer holiday.
And, um, I'm still on the summerholidays because it's never end.
Actually, because, youknow, it was back in 1987.
I was eight years old.
And, I mean, they'vebeen fleeing the country.
But it was super difficult becauseback then, uh, it was, you know,
(10:31):
very, um, unusual to, um, that thegovernment or the, like, the border
would let the whole family go.
Usually they would just allow, like, onefamily member or two to leave the country.
But then we've been lucky because we had,you know, like, through some connections.
My aunt, as a sister of my mother,she married, like, a police guy.
And so he had some connectionto the border control people.
(10:54):
And then we had an invitation fromother family member from France and
they invited us for a wedding actually.
So they allowed us to go to thiswedding for like four days or something.
And we had this super tiny car,you know, this Polska Fiat.
And I believe that we are goingon a summer holiday thing.
And then after a while, I kind of noticedthat the summer holiday is really long.
Permanent holiday away fromYou know, and let's say refugee
(11:17):
camps are not really like hotels.
Luyang Jiang (11:19):
So it was a bit like, okay, but yeah, it's, it's, yeah.
And your dad.
I mean, I read the story.
I actually was planning to ask you.
I mean, so glad you alreadystarted sharing this story.
But your dad did something veryclever about like a hiding something.
Cause he's really afraid.
Alicja Kwade (11:33):
He was super scared that I told that on the interview
was because he was like, Oh myGod, the techs will like be running
after me to get, to get some money.
No.
I think it's, I think it's so long ago.
They can't, uh, theycan't get him anymore.
Uh, yes, it was because, you know what,he was running a gallery in Poland.
So, um, when they kind of knew that theyare going to leave the country, you know,
(11:55):
he sold all art pieces he could, um, sell.
And they tried to buy dollars and gold.
I mean, you know, the kind ofthe things which you can kind
of use everywhere on the planet.
And he kind of implanted thisgold in the doors of the car
and the lights of the car.
So it was all over with like wax and gold.
And then I remember when we've been atthe border and you have, you know, these
(12:17):
people talking and dogs and that, andmy mom, she was like shouting at me and
my brother and just saying, okay, youpretend to sleep, you sleep, you sleep,
you sleep, no matter what you sleep.
And then she was putting all thisdollar bills in all our clothes.
So we've been like, you know, like,I mean, not that big, unfortunately,
but we've been like, um, sitting inthe back of the car, pretending to
sleep with this dollar, like, you know,stuffed with this dollar kind of, so
(12:40):
yeah, it's, it was a story and suddenlywe've been on this parking slot and
at night and we kind of, you know,
Luyang Jiang (12:46):
uh,
Alicja Kwade (12:46):
opened,
Luyang Jiang (12:47):
you know, I'll tell you how I started kind of
interacting with your artwork.
But I forgot at which point I startreading about you, but after I read about
this story, and I have to say, when I lookat some of your sculpture work, it was
kind of like a two different material,like, you know, melting together.
And the story always comes like,I wonder if there is some impact.
(13:07):
You
Alicja Kwade (13:08):
know, yeah, I mean, it's good to be honest, you know,
when I was younger, I somehow, SoI'm a singular creature and I am in
this world in my tunnel and I'm notinfluenced by anything and I don't
want to be influenced by anything.
Because the most boring thing for me is,to be honest, the biography of people.
I'm more interested in what they doright now, but that was like what
(13:30):
I was thinking when I was younger.
So I was a bit arrogant and Ithought that I can go through this
world with my mind and my bodynot being influenced by anything.
And back then I would always say,no, it's, there's no influence about
my biography and my work at all.
Of course, this is bullshit because youcan't cut away yourself from your life.
I mean, this is, you know, theinfluences, even if you don't want them,
(13:51):
probably they get you even stronger.
But still, I mean, I wasnever looking for it.
So I was never, you know, like diggingin my life or my biography or my
heritage or my whatever to sourcefor, um, inspiration or my art.
Um, the sources back then have been likesuper, you know, let's say objective,
(14:11):
you know, like science, uh, like quantumphysics, the most difficult things ever.
Or, you know, socialstudies, stuff like that.
Um, but I got a bit old and wise and nowI know that, yeah, of course, I'm sure
there have been influences even that Iwas trying not to, you know, let them in.
Luyang Jiang (14:28):
I was asking myself, like, what would Alicia be if
she didn't become an artist?
But I remember, um, in the previousinterviews that you, from early age,
you knew you wanted to become an artist.
And, um, but I picture, ifyou didn't become an artist,
you could be a philosopher.
And musician or quantum physicist?
Alicja Kwade (14:50):
I would say musician, possibly
Luyang Jiang (14:51):
not.
I'm really bad in this.
Um, but, but indeed, you haveanother kind of hat on you.
Like you still have themusic record company, right?
Alicja Kwade (15:01):
Yes.
I mean, I love that.
But this is, to be honest, morebecause of my partner, Gregor.
He's obsessed with music.
So this is something I kind ofrelated more, um, because of him.
But indeed, you know, what I amobsessed with and what I love is
kind of a certain logic and things.
And so I like the idea ofmathematics, even that I am really
not good at it because I've neverbeen, you know, educated in it.
(15:23):
Um, and I love the logic of musicand that's why I love science.
I mean, you know, this kind of funnytry to invent because it's inventing.
I mean, it's like inventingthings to prove something and
then to have the anti proof andthen to start from the beginning.
And, you know, using all theformulas to kind of explain the
most difficult things in this world.
And this automaticallyleads you to philosophy.
(15:46):
But to be honest, when I was young, Iwas not getting the point at all that,
um, because I thought I'm going to bean artist, so I thought, like, I don't
need, you know, to learn anything else.
It was, you know, bullshit, youknow, I just am an artist, that's it.
So I kind of was not seeing the pointthat how influential and important
also other disciplines can be foryour own artistic development.
(16:08):
So I was a bit like, I don't know,I had this idea, you know, I was
like sitting in physics class.
and you know, whatever, polishing my nailsblack and whatever, you know, smoking
cigarettes in the backyard, I mean, itwas like, whatever, you know, whatever.
Luyang Jiang (16:20):
All those things prepared to be an artist.
Yeah, but it's like thecliché, the most cliché idea,
Alicja Kwade (16:25):
you know.
But even that, um, for funnyreasons, and I was quite good
in school, uh, I was lucky.
But I think also I was good in schoolbecause, uh, when I was 11th grade, they'd
be not allowed to judge my, uh, you know,how you call it, the writing anymore.
So I got this, like, official,you know, dyslectic thing.
And they'd be not so my, you know, allmy, uh, all my degrees got much better.
(16:50):
And so I, indeed, I started to studymedicine for one semester or two.
But just because I waskind of curious about it.
But then I very quicklyactually quit it again.
But I just kept it going,actually, for two semesters.
Because back then I was supported bythe BAföG Amt, which is the official,
you know, like, um, government,uh, whatever institution, which is
(17:11):
supporting students who would not beable to be supported by their families.
So they've been, I dunno, paying meby then 800 euros or whatever, you
know, to make, I remember probably600 or, or d marks, I think it was.
But they've been not supporting peoplewho have been studying more than
one, uh, one subject, major subject.
Yeah.
But I actually, they took me formedicine and then they took me
(17:32):
for art and I was like, okay,I just want to do both of them.
And they've been like, no, becausewe're just supporting one, you know,
you have to concentrate on one.
And so it took me like oneyear to fight it through.
So I was going to each, you know,of those kind of institutions.
And finally, after a year, they've been,OK, we agree, we support you in both.
And then I was like, okay, I just leave.
Luyang Jiang (17:52):
I just leave.
That shows a lot of your personality.
Stay with us in a moment to hearabout Alicia's recent exhibition co
curated with Pace Gallery founderArnie Glimcher that puts her work
in conversation with Agnes Martins.
Will Griffith (18:13):
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcast is
brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is aboutartists and the way they think.
With each episode featuring aconversation with artists, writers,
filmmakers, and musicians exploringwhat it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations with creativesfrom Luca Guadagnino, to Sofia Coppola,
(18:34):
to Hilton Als, and so many more.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Luyang Jiang (18:42):
I want to switch our topic to your LA exhibition
currently going on in Pace Gallery.
I was thinking about this question whenI was listening to your talk with Arnie.
It reminds me of our lastepisode when Josh talked to, you
know, Calder's, uh, grandson.
Alicja Kwade (18:57):
Ah, yeah.
Luyang Jiang (18:57):
I met him.
Yeah, Sandy.
So I shared with him a personal story.
That's how I encounteredwith Calder's work.
Because I went to universityin Berkeley, studied business.
It has nothing to do with art, so Iwasn't really paying attention to art.
But there was a big sculpture onthe way to, it's a part of our
school, uh, the museum piece.
And after I passing by so many timesevery day, and I start searching for it.
(19:19):
Because it start kindof like speaking to me.
And that's how I discovered Calder,and I start kind of went dive more
deep, and then really like his work.
And Sandy was saying, I think it'sreally important to share the story.
He said, I'm so glad to hear it becausethat's what my grandfather wanted.
And then he went on to actually talkabout the background of the sculpture,
which his grandfather donated tothe school during the Vietnam War.
(19:42):
And he said, look at whatthe world is like right now.
So we went on to talk about,like, being relevant to today.
So that was the thinking when I waslistening to your conversation with
You know, Anglin's work and yourwork, although you're from a very
different generation, many differentbackgrounds, but there's a lot of
things that you can make relevantto today and to each other's works.
(20:03):
And my experience of looking atyour artwork from, I wrote it down
from Shanghai, Hong Kong, Berlin,
London Foundation, and Ithink London, New York.
What else?
It's close to like, wow.
I miss your Helsinki one.
Sorry, before we moved to there.
But there's three pieces in the city.
(20:25):
I was asking myself the question,like how different every time I see
your artworks, but I always feellike very, you know, kind of updated
to, cause I'm changing, right?
Since the first time I saw yourworks probably 10 years ago.
And that also kind of makes me wonderthe topic that you, you know, you
focus on a lot of kind of time.
One specific example I wish you can,you know, share with our audience
(20:49):
is about the snow piece that youtalk about it because you were
talking about your childhood earlier.
And it sounds like in a way youtry not to kind of talk about your
biography, how that kind of makean impact to your current life.
But the story you told about the snow kindof answered that question a little bit.
Right?
I'm sure your son will look atthe snow now playful, beautiful.
It's different than your childhood.
Alicja Kwade (21:11):
Yeah, I mean, but I have to jump shortly back to your
cul de sac story, because I loveyour cul de sac story, because this
is, like, exactly why I startedto believe in public art so much.
And I have a similar cul de sac story,but I mean, I was focusing on art back
then already, but I was about 15, andI was going to school in Hannover, in
the city of Hannover, and we, you know,every time we've been, like, cheating and
(21:31):
getting out from the classes, We wouldmeet at the big orange thing, you know,
to smoke pot and to have beer or whatever.
And I'd just seen it fromunderneath, you know, so I've just
seen this orange kind of dome.
And I never got that that was a sculpture.
It took me quite a while.
And once I got it, I was, that's sofantastic, you know, to have this big,
It's a big immense thing just in thecity sitting next to the river, but just,
(21:54):
you know, to kind of connect to your,
Luyang Jiang (21:56):
um, co listering.
No wonder every time I, especially,you know, including a couple of
years ago, I think the one thatyou did with Art Basel, um, it was
like two years ago, I think, right?
I didn't check the map.
With your work, it's also kind of weird.
Like I kind of always ran intoyour work, not by planning or
some of the exhibition planned.
But that one, particularly, I walked byon the bridge, rushing to my next meeting,
(22:18):
and I saw, also, that's Alicia's work.
Alicja Kwade (22:20):
Yes, it's not, actually, it's funny, I mean, I love my snow piece.
I think it's a very, everybody,every artist can kind of, I think,
follow my, you know, the speeding.
So every time you're doing a new piece,it's like, you know, like, euphoric.
You're like, yes, youknow, that's fantastic.
But then it changes sometimes,but, um, so I was very afraid
about snow peas and I still am.
It's just kind of very untypical for me.
(22:41):
I think that people notalways recognize it with me.
I had it in Mexico first, nowI'm having it in Los Angeles.
And it's actually this, because it lookslike dirty city snow, so it's not this
perfect kind of white, you know, uh,virgin like whatever idea of a snow.
But it's more, I took like somegrayish, you know, Carrara.
So, um, and what I did that I've beenwaiting to do this piece for many years,
(23:06):
but it was never snowing in Berlin.
You should come to Helsinki next time.
Yes.
It was not snowing in Berlin.
It was not snowing in Berlin.
And then I go back to my childhood.
And then I was sitting there withJohn, my assistant, and I was
like, John, we have to go to Norwayor like to Helsinki right now.
It's the last chance to do that.
And she was like, you know, my sister,she's living in Vancouver and she's
always fighting and complaining aboutall the snow and on her parking slot.
(23:28):
And she's like a tech freak, you know,so I can ask her to 3D scan it for us.
And I was like, okay, really?
Okay.
So, uh, we asked sister Joand she 3D scanned it for us.
I mean, the snow she had inthe city on her parking slot.
And so it's the originaldata of this moment, of this
specific day in February 2022.
And why I really wanted to do thepiece is that I remember, like,
(23:51):
I mean, I don't know what it was.
It came back to my memory, I think.
But first of all, I kind of, every time Isee snow in cities, like this moment, you
see something, you wish to kind of have itor, you know, as a child to play with it.
But it's kind of already coming dirtyand ugly, and in the moment you want
(24:14):
to, you hope for more, it disappears.
So it's this very, um, slight momentof a natural phenomenon, which is
implanted in the city structures,and which actually has not so much
to do with a natural phenomenon,rather than with a memory, to me.
Of course, it's different if youlive in Helsinki, I guess, or,
(24:35):
you know, or wherever, you know.
Probably doesn't have a story,but like, actually, at my, in my
childhood, and it was the case.
And so I kind of tried to, youknow, capture kind of this moment of
phenomena, which is already disappearingin the moment you look at it.
And it never is, you know, keepingthe same shape or attitude.
(24:56):
Yeah, it's like memories, actually.
It's like whenever you lookat them, they are different.
And then you think, you know, you inventthem yourself as if you would invent
like a beautiful day playing in the snow.
For me in Katowice, actually, it wasplaying in the dirt and not in the snow.
But I, you know, I've been tryingto put this imagination on it.
I think it has also to do because mybirthday is in January, so I always
(25:19):
was hoping for, you know, like, snow.
And yeah, usually it was like a, you know,dirty mix of coal and dust and whatever.
But it's even not so much about myself.
It's really about, you know, kindof capturing this moment and also
thinking about natural phenomenons.
This, also about this idea, I mean,you know, I would never like, you
(25:40):
know, raise my finger and say, Oh,don't do that, don't take care.
But it's probably a phenomena assnow itself will just get a memory.
in 50 years or 100.
It's something which will not appear anylonger and then it's actually not this
cliche thing which I was trying to makevisible but more like this This piece
of real city life and memory, yeah.
Luyang Jiang (26:02):
Every time I look at your work, I mean, it's
always very pleasant to look.
I remember our interview with Sandyalso, I think in the very beginning
of the conversation he mentionedthat lots of people look at color's
work and think it's beautiful.
He says this is really, you know, not,it should be, and it's more than that.
But your work also, Ithink, it's beautiful.
It's so easy to look at it, but atthe same time, you don't know why.
(26:24):
I think it's from my earlydays looking at your work.
Normally, if it's something I'm veryinterested in, I try not to read too much
text because I want it to feel like myown kind of organic reaction to that.
So you feel this kind of deepnessthere, but at the same time also
the light weight of sense of humor.
Then after I start listening to more ofyour conversation, I'm like, Oh, you know,
(26:45):
that's actually something in her work.
So I'm glad that I had the experience toexperience that first before I listened
to your self explanation on that part.
How do you manage to do that?
Because I feel like a lot ofartwork you look at it, if it's a
deep feeling that very, you know,very heavy, it's hard to balance.
And at the same time, you can alsoadd this, the humor part into it.
(27:05):
You
Alicja Kwade (27:05):
know, to be honest, for now, I really had a lucky life.
So I had no real dramas in my life.
So that's why it's probably easy for meto, you know, to find humor in everything
which I feel is deep and sad and eventragic, you know, for me, like each
kind of tragical situation automaticallyleads to a certain kind of humor.
(27:26):
Because things you can't get overand they are getting absurd, you
know, like looking at us people.
I mean, just looking at ahuman being is just pure fun.
I mean, those creatures, you know,who like believes that one is
better than the other one becauseof different colors or whatever,
different heights, different genders.
It's just pure fun.
It's so ironic.
(27:46):
It's so stupid that youcan just laugh, right?
So for me, whatever I try to researchon, you know, even if I try to understand
the most difficult physics if I tryto understand the world on its own
and then I go further, you know, fromsociety to, you know, and then I kind
of leave, leave the atmosphere andI look at the planet and then I'm in
the void and it's so hard to believe.
(28:08):
So it's just the only thing is tolove about it, you know, a love about
yourself, you know, because we areall taking ourselves so serious and I
think it's a pure, you know, the humanitself is like a satire, you know,
like a satiric creature on its own.
And that's why I believe that humoris a very important tool also to solve
(28:28):
things and to solve things for yourselfbecause otherwise you can just kill
yourself, you know, because we willnever find out anything about those
things which are so important for us.
And being kind of in this situationto know that you will never know,
you have kind of to deal with that.
You can love about it or you can just,you know, be super depressed about it.
(28:48):
But that's why I always tryto give it a little, you know.
A little to kind of also show these piecesof humor, which are indeed sourced from
my very serious research or feeling.
Luyang Jiang (29:05):
After the break, Alicia explores how the scientific influences
in her work reveal our shared humanity.
From our common genetic code to ourstruggle to escape the passage of time,
Will Griffith (29:19):
don't transact without the bare facts.
Subscribe to the Fairfax newsletter toreceive the key developments in the art
world and op-Eds from Josh Bear in yourinbox each Thursday plus special auction
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Head to thebearfax.
com to learn more and check out ourfull range of content offerings.
Luyang Jiang (29:46):
Well, listening to you, the image in my head was the exhibition,
I think it was 2020 in Berlin Galleria.
Yes.
Where you produced this biginstallation with your own DNA elements.
I, I found that one, maybebecause it's during pandemic.
This is, uh, one of your exhibitionI left was very kind of heavy
(30:09):
hearted, but at the same time, Ilike how you interpreted earlier.
It was a kind of, you know, it'sironic and especially during that
time what the world was going through.
I think we were still wearing masksgoing through, you know, inside your
exhibition, looking at all those, itwas like a couple hundred thousand pages
of paper with your DNA coding on itand with your own heart beats, right?
(30:30):
That exhibition kind of reallyleft me with lots of questions.
Today, when I'm talking to you, Istill feel like my heart is pumping.
Alicja Kwade (30:39):
Yeah, that was an easy one.
Especially that I really, youknow, this heartbeat was like
a, I had this life tracker.
It was called in Abwesenheis,which means in absence.
And so I was watching likethis smart, um, watch.
Of course, my heartbeat itself was prerecorded because you cannot implant
like a microphone in your heart.
But so we kind of pre recorded myheart sequence like in a normal beating
(31:00):
and then, but I had this clock andit was, you know, uh, transferring,
uh, live the signal of my heartbeat.
So whenever I was, you know,cycling, whatever it was,
then it got, you know, slow.
Which is very embarrassing, you know, so,that's why I decided, due to the title as
well, that whenever I was stepping in theroom, it was jumping over to the recorded.
(31:22):
You know, kind of prerecorded.
So it was never like thenkind of free because of you.
But thank you for saying that.
But yeah, I mean, youknow, what can I say?
It's really like about for me, I'mgetting so obsessed with certain
themes when I work on them and I tryto find as you know, like everything
out about one topic as much as I can.
Just to understand it to the fullest,to kind of, you know, probably also get
(31:43):
to a point where it then starts to bemy own work in a way that of course I
cannot, and I don't need to actuallyprove it or understand it to the very
deepest, but I mean, in this DNA work,for example, you know, I've been working
with a friend of mine, he is a bureauchemist, and so, you know, he explained
to me, and this is so fascinating, Imean, I learned so much about that, you
know, and then it was kind of filling my.
(32:06):
which was just like a loose ideain the beginning with so much input
somehow because the more I learnedabout it the more valuable but also
like ironic it got you know, I meanwhat this DNA is that it was made of
12 reference people that you know, 99.
9 percent it's all the same to everyoneBut at least like 90 percent of this 99.
(32:29):
9 is just the information for theDNA, how it should fit in the cell.
Who the hell was givingit this information?
You know, so it gets so, it'slike science fiction, you know?
But it's also frightening alittle bit, because, you know, I'm
still convinced that I'm wrong.
That if people, if we would be educatedon some issues, like for example the
(32:50):
DNA, that everybody is the hell the same.
There's not a big difference between.
I believe that if people would know aboutit and understand it, There would be,
for example, no racism, no, you know,because there is no reason for it, you
know, but unfortunately it's not true.
I mean, that is then like somethingshocking to be aware of that, you know,
that even knowledge is not helping.
(33:12):
So what the hell is it?
You know, my
Luyang Jiang (33:13):
daughter said, Something to me kind of almost like a shock.
I mean, you know, again, I toldyou earlier, she's turning seven.
So, um, I start reading Sophie'sworld to her since last year and
she's definitely fascinated, right?
And then she started kind ofrecording herself using my phone,
like doing like, who are we?
Like, she told me that question,like, you know, cause you were saying
like, um, what the hell is those?
(33:35):
Like, cause everything, prettymuch what we're saying right now,
it's like human defined or webeen given definition about it.
My daughter asked me this, she said,Mommy, you know, because she loves animals
and nature, and she gets really angry whenshe sees, like, people are doing it, and
she's like, that's so wrong, you know,they came in before us, you know, and she
said, I forgot what we were talking about,she said, but Mommy, what if it wasn't?
(33:58):
It's just like, wehumans give that, right?
But the nature exists long before us.
Like, I don't even knowhow to answer her question.
It's like, wow.
Alicja Kwade (34:07):
I mean, she's right.
I mean, sometimes it's like, to behonest, I'm a very ironic person.
And I'm always saying, you know, forme, humanity is like a plug, you know?
I mean, I see it a bit like a daughter.
You know, this world is existingabout four million years.
Humans, and they're just for,I mean, it's so not important.
We're so tiny.
It's so tiny.
It's not important at all.
Luyang Jiang (34:25):
But unfortunately, most of us think that, you
know, we think, where are they?
But also,
Alicja Kwade (34:29):
and I actually, I have even to laugh about this problem.
Okay.
It's like a differentunderstanding probably I have.
I don't know.
But for me also, of course, it's importantto take care of this planet and take
care of it and whatever, you know, andmake sure that we are saving the world.
But I think the wrong thinking iswe are trying to save ourselves.
The planet does not need us.
It's going to be super fine without us.
(34:49):
It's not going to heat up and explode.
It's going to be fine.
It's just about our selfish,you know, it's about us.
And then we try to whatever,wrap it up to something else.
It's about us.
I mean, and for sure, for right andstuff, but it's not, you know, the
planet is super fine without us.
No problem at all.
I
Luyang Jiang (35:08):
mean, again, just by talking to you, like almost everything,
you know, there's a, some topickind of supposed to be heavy topic.
You always can, you know, talkin a very kind of light way,
but with a very meaningfulinterpretation, absolutely enjoy it.
Another key words I was thinkingabout is, uh, you know, when you were
talking about your childhood story, howyou and your family end up coming to
(35:29):
Germany, you know, the word of escaping.
And I know one of your big hero, ifI could quote you, is Hobini, right?
Yeah, Hobini, yeah.
And I wonder, I was, uh, earlieryou were talking about another
piece you made about escaping,but again, in a very humorous way.
And I know you're a bigfan, you're a bookworm.
Can I call you that?
Alicja Kwade (35:51):
Uh, to be honest, I used to be one, I used to be one.
It's changed a little bit with mychild, as you can, I think, understand.
But, uh, yes, but I was, you know, I'ma very undisciplined person in reading.
I mean, I was always reading like,you know, like, like five books in
the meantime, but I probably evenhad no clue who was the author,
but I would just be interested to,you know, whatever, to jump in this
(36:12):
topic and this topic and this topic.
And yeah, I mean, I can say two ofmy kind of really like IP persons
on this planet I've been obsessedwith was Nikola Tesla and Houdini.
Yeah, so somehow there are someinterferences between the two
because Tesla got a little bit madin the end and, you know, he started
to talk to aliens or whatever.
Yeah, because it's also like such asmall, you know, a border between kind of
(36:36):
science and, and you've, when you thinkscience further, it really gets something
so abstract that it's like magic, youknow, there's no explanation for it.
I'm not a person who believesin God or something like that.
I feel that somewhere else through.
And what I also love about magicians,and I still love magicians really to the
deepest when I see it, even I understandit, but I, you know, um, that, I mean,
(36:59):
they are using those little gaps of oursenses, you know, because we are very
limited, you know, it's like what wesee and what we believe to see, it's
just an interpretation of our brains,we all know that, but still you can
never see it until you're like watchinga magician, and he is like, It's quick
enough or tricky enough to just sneakaround your attention span or your senses.
(37:24):
And then it's just, you know, fascinating.
It's like, you know, anotherplanet, you're kind of.
Luyang Jiang (37:28):
Yeah, I think knowing those stories and then the background kind
of really helped to look at your work.
I mean, I was thinking about now the workthat you, I forgot the name, but there was
a watch and but turning kind of backwards.
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's against the runor like getting in love in Germany.
Yeah.
Like running against, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Something like that.
It has something to do with escaping.
Alicja Kwade (37:48):
I know, it's more like, you know, it's more like connected to
this idea of Sisyphus, you know, tryingto climb out up this hill with a stone.
But also like us ashumans, you know, trying.
Because this time topic, forme, most of the times it's too
kind of romantic, you know.
Time for myself is not romantic at all.
It's just this issue, thisthing, influencing ourselves.
(38:10):
And that's why we take it so serious.
And we think so much about it becausewe are time limited, you know, things.
And this clock is more like, it'skind of trying to escape itself.
It tries to escape the time but it can't.
And it's like us, we are tryingto escape, you know, to save time.
I mean, alone, the, the, theTo save time or to extend time.
(38:32):
It's always about, like, trying tosqueeze or stretch this time to whatever.
But we can't influence it at all.
We are just, you know, thrown in this kindof stream of time, but it It does things
to us, but we can't do anything about it.
And that's why it's such a, um,important topic to us humans, but
I see it very ironic how we try toalways, you know, kind of struggle
(38:54):
with this time thing all the time.
What were you fighting for?
Yeah, fine.
But there's no way to escape it anyway.
Luyang Jiang (39:03):
I first met Alicia in 2018 when I visited
her preview studio in Berlin.
Even then, I was impressed by herhands on approach, both in creating
her artwork and in managing her studio.
In our final segment, you will hearabout how she's balancing running
her studio and full gear six yearsfurther into her career, while now
(39:25):
also raising her four year old son.
You've been very productive and I,again, just look at your website,
how many exhibitions and theneverywhere, like very different world.
I just wanted to remind you, weactually met in 2018 when you
were still in your old studio.
(39:45):
Yeah, that's true.
You know, I should take outthis photo I wanted to show you.
Ah, that's true.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
That's 2018, April.
Wow.
Okay, cool.
Yes, no, I remember.
Exactly.
Yes.
And I remember I was very fascinated byhow organized, like you, you know, I don't
remember how big your team back then, andthen now we're sitting in your new studio.
(40:06):
So, How many people work in your studio?
Alicja Kwade (40:09):
Ah, too many.
I think we are altogether 50.
But it's not everybody islike full contract, right?
So we have like 15 people like,you know, on full contract, and
then a lot of freelance people.
But I really mean it.
You know, it was never mygoal to get a big studio.
It just kind of happened somehow.
And it happened mostly because atsome point I really started to focus
(40:29):
on public and ultra public sculpture.
And this is kind of forcing you to workin teams and with teams, which is a great
thing, of course, you know, it's justthat sometimes I don't feel like, I mean,
I don't want it to be like a businessperson, you know, I just never wanted to
be this person to organize all of that.
Of course, I have people who areorganizing this for me, but still,
you know, sometimes You're verymuch involved in all the details.
(40:50):
Yes, I am.
And I can't let it go.
I don't know.
I'm possibly a control freakor something like that.
I don't know.
I can't.
I simply can't.
And that's why I love those people.
And it's beautiful.
And it's great because we can getall the things done very fastly all
over the world, which is amazing.
But of course it brings also all thiskind of, you know, daily life problems
of so many people being like on one spot.
And actually, to behonest, I love to be alone.
(41:12):
So I love, it's kind of, I'mreally lucky when I'm alone.
It was always like that,even when I was a child.
I always preferred to be onmy own, since I was a kid.
So I'm
Luyang Jiang (41:21):
missing that a little bit right now.
This is kind of related to the firstquestion we were talking about, the
artist role, and how do you balance that?
Artists, you need to have yourown space for creating your art.
And at the same time, like you said,you kind of naturally grow into,
for example, managing the team.
You used the word corporation earlierfor, you know, different topic, but
from what I see, you know, first timemeeting you in 2018, you're old studio.
(41:45):
And now, you know, we came herea little bit earlier seeing your
team, you know, very organized in adifferent rooms, a different purpose.
And you're running exhibitionsin the same time simultaneously
in a different part of the world.
That's a manager of a company.
Alicja Kwade (42:00):
I know, yeah, it is, somehow.
But, no, I mean, it's great, for sure.
It's just kind of somehowfunny because of the people who
know me a little bit better.
I'm not a very organized person, actually.
Myself.
I hate things like cleaning upand, you know, like I'm really bad.
I'm a mess, actually.
And I think there's a deep desire of thisempty, clean spaces and organized things,
(42:22):
which I personally can't at all, you know?
And actually my first assistant,Philip, he's a very dear friend and an
artist himself, he was kind of sayingonce to the new team members, he was
like, you know, actually the task isto clean up the mess after Alicia.
Luyang Jiang (42:39):
They kind of organized her.
How does that work afteryou have a little kid?
I mean, yeah, even worse.
You know why I'm asking this, right?
Because I can't feel very much related.
Yeah,
Alicja Kwade (42:51):
no, honestly, it's the only thing that I'm really
missing, you know, the time.
But I mean, it will come again, I'm sure.
But it's like, you know, having a smallchild and an operation running like
this here is like, I mean, I you know,I'm bringing him to the kindergarten
rushing to be here on time, thenlike doing all whatever I have to do.
Then, you know, lookingat the watch and it's 6.
30 and I have to rush back totake over from the babysitter
(43:14):
who was picking him up from Kita.
So, actually there's no time left at all.
And then because the week is sofull, of course, you know, I want to
spend time with him, so I'm tryingto have the weekends with him.
But indeed, yes, I'm missingtime for my own work.
What I try to achieve sometimes hereis that, you know, I'm taking kind of,
that my partner's taking over one dayor so, and I'm like, okay, I'm staying
(43:36):
in the studio until night, you know, soI have this one day or two, depending
on the schedules where I'm just here.
Long at night and I love it.
Yeah, I try to, you know, escape like forone hour and two in between All the other
fun here, but this is one point I'm reallymissing Yeah, because this is honestly
and it's funny to say and probably a bitinhuman but the kind of purest One of
(43:58):
the worst luck situations in my life isbeing alone in my studio with myself,
having music loud on, and not beingincluded in the rest of this world at all.
And I'm missing that.
Luyang Jiang (44:10):
Well, that's very honest, but I mean, I work from
home, so I don't have a studio,so I have nowhere to escape.
That's why I enjoy living in Finland.
That's true.
You know, I go runningor cycling in the woods.
Even during a snow day, it's nice.
Yeah, I'm also running alot, but it just came also
Alicja Kwade (44:26):
with travels and cicada and whatever and jet lags.
Luyang Jiang (44:28):
Do you see the change after, I mean, besides of the daily
routine in a more limited time ofbeing alone, which is something I
also, you know, feel very much related.
How much do you think that madeimpact might be a wrong word and the
different way of for you to make art?
After you have your son for three anda half years, almost four years now.
(44:50):
To
Alicja Kwade (44:50):
be honest, I'm not, I, you know, I, but it's, I did it on purpose.
I don't want it to change.
And why?
Because people, you know, when I was like,obviously pregnant and the, you know,
last month, I was not telling anyone untilit was like month eight or something.
And people feel like saying, Oh, yourlife is going to change completely.
Everything's going to change completely.
And I was so fed up about that.
And so I kind of decided, no,I don't want my life to change.
(45:12):
I want to prove to you thatit's not going to change.
It's not your fucking business.
So it was kind of, and, so I tried not,and actually it, of course it changed,
like, you know, to the organization wise.
Yes, of course, I can'tstay here each night.
Yes, of course, I'm tryingto be home at the weekends.
But my way of kind of working andseeing the world and, you know,
(45:33):
the amount of my exhibitions, allof that hasn't changed at all.
And even it increased.
I mean, I have to be moreconcentrated and faster.
Because your timetable is so limited.
It's limited, but it's fine.
And it was kind of supportingthis decision in myself.
Whenever I got this firstinterviews after I got the chat,
I don't even know how they knew.
(45:54):
But it was like, the first questionwas always like, Oh, it must
have changed for you and stuff.
Your life has been, I waslike, Why are you asking?
I mean, it's like, whatkind of question is that?
You know?
And then I got really mean and erotic.
I was like, you know, somebody's life canchange because of a different haircut.
You know?
What the fuck?
It's so, it's a always towards women.
It's always towards women, because No,you almost, and it's also unfair also, you
(46:17):
know, the guys' lives are changing or not.
I mean, it's why I feltlike it's so old fashioned.
It's so stupid.
I mean, yes, it changed due toorganizational things and stuff, but it
kind of seems hard when I say that, but nomyself and my life hasn't changed so much.
I mean, I'm of course verybeautifully enriched with this.
(46:37):
Little human creature I can kind oflove and see growing and it's like,
Luyang Jiang (46:41):
it's funny, you know?
I don't know if it is something you woulddo ever if you have a group of young
visitors like, you know My daughter'sage because that's one of the things
I'm planning to do taking her and herfriends to go to the local museums to see
a show with Animals and I'm strugglingbecause it has been I will say compared
to my other preparation for the showsThis is very hard like I'm not What
(47:05):
kind of questions I should ask them?
What would you do?
Alicja Kwade (47:09):
I mean, I would just let them ask you, you
know, just let them free.
I mean, they should probably Try to figureout themselves first because then you
are not pre interpreting anything becauseI think we all have and it's so hard I
mean, I think it's a saying Picasso saidonce and I don't like because I'm so
much because of my sex But there's onenice saying and he said it takes a very
(47:32):
long time to get young And it's you knowto be kind of aware of kind of those
filters We have and those kind of shapeswe are in and to get rid of them again
Luyang Jiang (47:43):
I like that quote.
It takes us a long time to be young.
I mean, I feel like I'm goingthrough that process, like remind
myself, like how I used to be likethis, but you know, growing up,
Alicja Kwade (47:54):
seeing it positively aging can be something very
good to get younger again.
So we're learning, learning curve.
Luyang Jiang (48:04):
Such a lovely conversation.
Thank you.
And I was very excited to come here andvisit your new studio for the first time.
Also, lots of stories you mentioned todaygive me a lot of kind of confirmation
of my reaction to your artwork.
Alicja Kwade (48:16):
so much.
I'm so happy that you've seen so many.
I'm very impressed.
I'd
Luyang Jiang (48:24):
like to give a big thank you to my friend Alicia for joining us
as our guest on the Barefax podcast.
This episode is broughtto you by David Zoner.
I'm your host and executiveproducer Luyang Jiang.
Our content strategist is Boliang Shen.
Our associate editor is Will Griffith.
And our editing team is Mona Productions.
(48:45):
Check back soon for future episodesas we unpack the inner workings of the
global art industry through exclusive,candid interviews with key players
in the business, as they offer theirperspectives on art and the market
in the U S, Europe, Asia, and beyond.
Welcome to the Baer Faxt Podcast.
I'm your host and executiveproducer, Luyang Jiang.
This episode is broughtto you by David Zoner.
They also have a greatpodcast called Dialogues.
Give you a lesson after this episode.
Our guest today is artist Alicia Cuada.
Alicia is known internationally forher sculptures, expensive public
installations, films, photography,and works on paper that challenge
(00:27):
our perceptions of scientificand philosophical concepts.
which are showcased in leading artinstitutions globally and in high demand
in both the primary and secondary markets.
I have a lot of questions about herpersonal and artistic journey, but
from what I have seen of her work, Iknow she's someone who isn't afraid
to tackle some tough questions.
(00:49):
So, on a sunny afternoon in early June,I sat down with her in her Berlin studio.
Instead of starting with her childhoodand how she became an artist, which
you will hear about later in thisepisode, I decided to dive right
into a topic that many artistsmight shy away from, the art market.
I asked her what she thinksabout the role of artists in
(01:12):
understanding the dynamics of theart world, including the art market.
And the pricing of their works.
I
Alicja Kwade (01:22):
have a bit mixed feelings about that because I think it's not
that most people are too shy about it.
It's kind of hard to emotionallyunderstand the art market as an artist.
Because it's so different to what you do,at the need and, I mean, like the biggest
desire, but like a need, like a addiction.
So it's kind of hard to really emotionallyunderstand this kind of market.
(01:44):
I can, personally, I canintellectually understand it, but
I cannot emotionally understand it.
That's why it's also hard for me tounderstand auctions, for example.
I'm not getting the pointwhy pieces on auctions are so
much more expensive sometimes.
From a living artist, you couldjust go next door to a gallery
and buy it for half price.
I'm not getting the point really.
I mean, I can get it.
(02:04):
Of course, I can get it from thedynamics a bit of the art market,
but still it feels not like, uh, Ithink it's such a, yeah, different
kind of way of thinking and feeling.
So it's kind of difficult for mostartists to adapt on that really honestly.
That's why they better step away.
But it's also many cliches,you know, saying, okay, we have
nothing to do with the art market.
(02:25):
You know, we leave it or theother, but I don't think so at all.
On the other hand, that's why,you know, in there, for example, I
mean, I'm going to art first quitea lot, uh, and I like to see it.
I, I kind of like to see what's going on.
It's, it's, for me, it's like,you know, I can like, just in a
couple of hours, I know what all mycolleagues are doing right now, what
the prices are, who's showing whom.
Who's supporting whom, you know, I'malways like reading like, you know,
(02:47):
like at each unlimited or something.
And I'm like, okay, which gallery isdoing this or this or being honest.
It's interesting for me.
So I'm very well informed afterI left an art for example.
But then of course there's the saying,and you know, I hear it every time
people see me on an art market, it'slike this Baldassare saying, like
an artist on an art front is likewatching your parents having sex.
Well, but that is like 30 yearsago as well, you know, we're like
(03:09):
this roles of being as galleristor as a salesperson and curator
and an artist have been very clear.
So everybody had his rule back then.
That's my feeling.
I mean, I've been not really inthe art market in the 80s, but
that's what I kind of imagined.
And it's still, I kind of getto know, you know, when I kind
of started in the artwork.
So I think it was a veryclear, you know, setup.
(03:30):
Who's doing what, and the artist wasthe artist, you know, like, it was, you
know, fun to have them drunk and crazy.
There was, like, the intellectualcurator, and there was the mean
shark, you know, the business person.
But now it gets, you know, theworld is changing, and it gets
much softer, those kind of borders,due to the access to different
medias, due to many, many things.
There is a couple of artists, and I'mincluding myself to this group actually,
(03:52):
who are very aware of what they do.
And about their prices, about, youknow, which pieces are going where,
and to whom, and you know, aboutthe inventories and all of that.
I am controlling that pretty much,and I am very aware of what I do.
I guess, I mean, I believe at least.
So I think, you know, thoseborders are getting softer.
Even, you know, the term to berepresented by a gallery seems like
(04:14):
a bit kind of odd because it's like,what do you mean it's represented?
Represented is like, you know,having an artist on your silver
tray and showing it to the world.
I don't know.
You know, but in most cases thatis also another story right now.
I think it's more shifting towardslike a corporation than, you
know, being someone's artist.
But this is what my feeling on the onehand, but as I said in the beginning, on
(04:36):
the other hand, still this dynamics of theart market, really, you know, of all these
auctions and sales and stuff like that.
This is so different to my own, youknow, spot of interest and my own kind
of Priorities and my own sources thatit still is very abstract to me and I
(04:56):
also don't feel super sure about it.
So it's for me, it's super hard to judge.
For example, if my design auctions,I have no idea if it should get, if
it's good, if it's sold very high orif it's not good, if it's, you know,
just for the average or it's good.
If it falls through sometimes, it's kindof hard for me to follow this logic.
Luyang Jiang (05:16):
So recently I've been talking to some couple young artists
that I recommend them to listen toour podcast for a couple episodes,
including one artist in Finland.
He's still in the art academy.
And he said, wow, that's fascinating.
I didn't even know all those terms.
And I think since we launchedthe Bare Facts podcast from last
March, there's a reason why wedon't have that many artists yet.
(05:36):
Such as this topic, when I saidearlier, people tend to kind
of shy away from this topic.
It's like, oh, hey, I'm an artist.
I shouldn't talk aboutart market or my price.
But I guess there's a kind of balance.
I mean, from what I see is, like, theyoung artist told me, he said, it's
so good to know what's out there.
I mean, including when you talkabout the gallery representation.
(05:57):
For young artists, it's really hard.
They said, you know, I make art,of course, I want more people
to see, but I have no clue.
I don't have a team.
I have no clue how I getmore people to see my art.
This young artist, by theway, I was introduced by our
designer who made our table.
And he saw our artworks becausewe buy artworks and then we
have pieces in the house.
And then he's like, oh,you should see this one.
(06:19):
And I saw his booth.
I saw this painting.
So I asked him tointroduce me to the artist.
That's how I found it.
But at the same time, the artists,many of them, I met them, they're
still kind of building up their career.
And I personally, I don't believe thatpeople say artists has to be starving
artists in order to make good art.
And that's why I wanted to ask thequestion, you know, because you are
(06:39):
considered as more established artists.
I wonder for, especially foryounger artists, how should they,
you know, define their role withthe interaction with the art world?
Alicja Kwade (06:49):
I think there's two sides, you know.
There's when you're also growingin your role, you know, and
that's hard to kind of describe.
But I think the only thing to doas a young artist is being visible.
You have just to use any chance you'regetting to make yourself visible.
And this is kind of, you know,multiplying your chances because you
just need one person to support you.
(07:10):
You know, you don't needthe whole world to love you.
In the beginning, you need one curatorwho kind of, you know, seen it, discovered
it, and is putting in your show.
Or one gallerist who believes in thepieces and he's starting to work with you.
Or one collector who is kindof, you know, fascinated by it.
You know, there shouldbe not too much pressure.
It's not that you needlike a complete system.
You need one, two, three people,and then it goes further.
(07:32):
But to reach out to those people,of course you need to be visible.
And I still believe that it's betterto be physically visible somehow.
I mean, of course you can doInstagram and all of that, but
there's so much things going on.
So it's a little bit hard to fill out, Ithink, but I think, you know, any group
shows, whatever, you know, and people arestill looking at that things, you know,
they're passing by the seats, hangingsomewhere and somebody's whatever, you
(07:55):
know, flat, you know, give it away, justdo it, you know, get it out for free.
And nobody's paying inthe beginning, of course.
I mean, it takes a while.
But then about, because it'sinteresting what you said, you
know, about the suffering artistsand the role of the artists.
And of course, we all know that.
I mean, it's an empty cliché, you know.
Um, most of artists we still know from arthistory have not been suffering artists.
(08:17):
I mean, there's a fewexceptions, but just a few.
Most of them, um, beingestablished and making a possibly
quite good life out of that.
Not all of them, I'm not saying, butit's, you know, it's this cliche because
this cliche is like a desire, you know?
I mean, that's a funny role.
That's like a game, right?
The cliche of the collector,who is this very rich person,
(08:38):
you know, kind of established inhis work and life and whatever.
And then there's a poor, you know, butmind free artist who is looking for,
you know, wants to change the world.
And then the rich person is buying,you know, kind of a, you know, Peace
of this free mind probably you knowof this idea of this kind of spirit,
but this is a cliche of course It'snot not always like that, right?
(09:00):
I mean there's differentconstellations, but what I kind of
learned also not to live with thiskind of idea of a role It's fine.
I mean, this is how the worldkind of functions, you know,
everybody has to play his part.
And if it's until it's notharming anyone, it's well out.
Luyang Jiang (09:19):
After the break, I'll talk to Alicia about her childhood,
how she ended up moving to Germanywith her family from Poland in the 80s.
And how her school days andexperiences as an immigrant shaped
her artistic path later in life.
Will Griffith (09:37):
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcast is
brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is aboutartists and the way they think,
with each episode featuring aconversation with artists, writers,
filmmakers, and musicians exploringwhat it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations withartists like Njideka Akunyili
(09:57):
Crosby, Elizabeth Payton, and more.
Rikrit Tiravani and so many moresubscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Luyang Jiang (10:08):
You moved to Germany with your family when you were eight, right?
Alicja Kwade (10:11):
I mean, moved is probably not the right term, to be honest.
You know, I believe that weare going on a summer holiday.
And, um, I'm still on the summerholidays because it's never end.
Actually, because, youknow, it was back in 1987.
I was eight years old.
And, I mean, they'vebeen fleeing the country.
But it was super difficult becauseback then, uh, it was, you know,
(10:31):
very, um, unusual to, um, that thegovernment or the, like, the border
would let the whole family go.
Usually they would just allow, like, onefamily member or two to leave the country.
But then we've been lucky because we had,you know, like, through some connections.
My aunt, as a sister of my mother,she married, like, a police guy.
And so he had some connectionto the border control people.
(10:54):
And then we had an invitation fromother family member from France and
they invited us for a wedding actually.
So they allowed us to go to thiswedding for like four days or something.
And we had this super tiny car,you know, this Polska Fiat.
And I believe that we are goingon a summer holiday thing.
And then after a while, I kind of noticedthat the summer holiday is really long.
Permanent holiday away fromYou know, and let's say refugee
(11:17):
camps are not really like hotels.
Luyang Jiang (11:19):
So it was a bit like, okay, but yeah, it's, it's, yeah.
And your dad.
I mean, I read the story.
I actually was planning to ask you.
I mean, so glad you alreadystarted sharing this story.
But your dad did something veryclever about like a hiding something.
Cause he's really afraid.
Alicja Kwade (11:33):
He was super scared that I told that on the interview
was because he was like, Oh myGod, the techs will like be running
after me to get, to get some money.
No.
I think it's, I think it's so long ago.
They can't, uh, theycan't get him anymore.
Uh, yes, it was because, you know what,he was running a gallery in Poland.
So, um, when they kind of knew that theyare going to leave the country, you know,
(11:55):
he sold all art pieces he could, um, sell.
And they tried to buy dollars and gold.
I mean, you know, the kind ofthe things which you can kind
of use everywhere on the planet.
And he kind of implanted thisgold in the doors of the car
and the lights of the car.
So it was all over with like wax and gold.
And then I remember when we've been atthe border and you have, you know, these
(12:17):
people talking and dogs and that, andmy mom, she was like shouting at me and
my brother and just saying, okay, youpretend to sleep, you sleep, you sleep,
you sleep, no matter what you sleep.
And then she was putting all thisdollar bills in all our clothes.
So we've been like, you know, like,I mean, not that big, unfortunately,
but we've been like, um, sitting inthe back of the car, pretending to
sleep with this dollar, like, you know,stuffed with this dollar kind of, so
(12:40):
yeah, it's, it was a story and suddenlywe've been on this parking slot and
at night and we kind of, you know,
Luyang Jiang (12:46):
uh,
Alicja Kwade (12:46):
opened,
Luyang Jiang (12:47):
you know, I'll tell you how I started kind of
interacting with your artwork.
But I forgot at which point I startreading about you, but after I read about
this story, and I have to say, when I lookat some of your sculpture work, it was
kind of like a two different material,like, you know, melting together.
And the story always comes like,I wonder if there is some impact.
(13:07):
You
Alicja Kwade (13:08):
know, yeah, I mean, it's good to be honest, you know,
when I was younger, I somehow, SoI'm a singular creature and I am in
this world in my tunnel and I'm notinfluenced by anything and I don't
want to be influenced by anything.
Because the most boring thing for me is,to be honest, the biography of people.
I'm more interested in what they doright now, but that was like what
(13:30):
I was thinking when I was younger.
So I was a bit arrogant and Ithought that I can go through this
world with my mind and my bodynot being influenced by anything.
And back then I would always say,no, it's, there's no influence about
my biography and my work at all.
Of course, this is bullshit because youcan't cut away yourself from your life.
I mean, this is, you know, theinfluences, even if you don't want them,
(13:51):
probably they get you even stronger.
But still, I mean, I wasnever looking for it.
So I was never, you know, like diggingin my life or my biography or my
heritage or my whatever to sourcefor, um, inspiration or my art.
Um, the sources back then have been likesuper, you know, let's say objective,
(14:11):
you know, like science, uh, like quantumphysics, the most difficult things ever.
Or, you know, socialstudies, stuff like that.
Um, but I got a bit old and wise and nowI know that, yeah, of course, I'm sure
there have been influences even that Iwas trying not to, you know, let them in.
Luyang Jiang (14:28):
I was asking myself, like, what would Alicia be if
she didn't become an artist?
But I remember, um, in the previousinterviews that you, from early age,
you knew you wanted to become an artist.
And, um, but I picture, ifyou didn't become an artist,
you could be a philosopher.
And musician or quantum physicist?
Alicja Kwade (14:50):
I would say musician, possibly
Luyang Jiang (14:51):
not.
I'm really bad in this.
Um, but, but indeed, you haveanother kind of hat on you.
Like you still have themusic record company, right?
Alicja Kwade (15:01):
Yes.
I mean, I love that.
But this is, to be honest, morebecause of my partner, Gregor.
He's obsessed with music.
So this is something I kind ofrelated more, um, because of him.
But indeed, you know, what I amobsessed with and what I love is
kind of a certain logic and things.
And so I like the idea ofmathematics, even that I am really
not good at it because I've neverbeen, you know, educated in it.
(15:23):
Um, and I love the logic of musicand that's why I love science.
I mean, you know, this kind of funnytry to invent because it's inventing.
I mean, it's like inventingthings to prove something and
then to have the anti proof andthen to start from the beginning.
And, you know, using all theformulas to kind of explain the
most difficult things in this world.
And this automaticallyleads you to philosophy.
(15:46):
But to be honest, when I was young, Iwas not getting the point at all that,
um, because I thought I'm going to bean artist, so I thought, like, I don't
need, you know, to learn anything else.
It was, you know, bullshit, youknow, I just am an artist, that's it.
So I kind of was not seeing the pointthat how influential and important
also other disciplines can be foryour own artistic development.
(16:08):
So I was a bit like, I don't know,I had this idea, you know, I was
like sitting in physics class.
and you know, whatever, polishing my nailsblack and whatever, you know, smoking
cigarettes in the backyard, I mean, itwas like, whatever, you know, whatever.
Luyang Jiang (16:20):
All those things prepared to be an artist.
Yeah, but it's like thecliché, the most cliché idea,
Alicja Kwade (16:25):
you know.
But even that, um, for funnyreasons, and I was quite good
in school, uh, I was lucky.
But I think also I was good in schoolbecause, uh, when I was 11th grade, they'd
be not allowed to judge my, uh, you know,how you call it, the writing anymore.
So I got this, like, official,you know, dyslectic thing.
And they'd be not so my, you know, allmy, uh, all my degrees got much better.
(16:50):
And so I, indeed, I started to studymedicine for one semester or two.
But just because I waskind of curious about it.
But then I very quicklyactually quit it again.
But I just kept it going,actually, for two semesters.
Because back then I was supported bythe BAföG Amt, which is the official,
you know, like, um, government,uh, whatever institution, which is
(17:11):
supporting students who would not beable to be supported by their families.
So they've been, I dunno, paying meby then 800 euros or whatever, you
know, to make, I remember probably600 or, or d marks, I think it was.
But they've been not supporting peoplewho have been studying more than
one, uh, one subject, major subject.
Yeah.
But I actually, they took me formedicine and then they took me
(17:32):
for art and I was like, okay,I just want to do both of them.
And they've been like, no, becausewe're just supporting one, you know,
you have to concentrate on one.
And so it took me like oneyear to fight it through.
So I was going to each, you know,of those kind of institutions.
And finally, after a year, they've been,OK, we agree, we support you in both.
And then I was like, okay, I just leave.
Luyang Jiang (17:52):
I just leave.
That shows a lot of your personality.
Stay with us in a moment to hearabout Alicia's recent exhibition co
curated with Pace Gallery founderArnie Glimcher that puts her work
in conversation with Agnes Martins.
Will Griffith (18:13):
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcast is
brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is aboutartists and the way they think.
With each episode featuring aconversation with artists, writers,
filmmakers, and musicians exploringwhat it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations with creativesfrom Luca Guadagnino, to Sofia Coppola,
(18:34):
to Hilton Als, and so many more.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Luyang Jiang (18:42):
I want to switch our topic to your LA exhibition
currently going on in Pace Gallery.
I was thinking about this question whenI was listening to your talk with Arnie.
It reminds me of our lastepisode when Josh talked to, you
know, Calder's, uh, grandson.
Alicja Kwade (18:57):
Ah, yeah.
Luyang Jiang (18:57):
I met him.
Yeah, Sandy.
So I shared with him a personal story.
That's how I encounteredwith Calder's work.
Because I went to universityin Berkeley, studied business.
It has nothing to do with art, so Iwasn't really paying attention to art.
But there was a big sculpture onthe way to, it's a part of our
school, uh, the museum piece.
And after I passing by so many timesevery day, and I start searching for it.
(19:19):
Because it start kindof like speaking to me.
And that's how I discovered Calder,and I start kind of went dive more
deep, and then really like his work.
And Sandy was saying, I think it'sreally important to share the story.
He said, I'm so glad to hear it becausethat's what my grandfather wanted.
And then he went on to actually talkabout the background of the sculpture,
which his grandfather donated tothe school during the Vietnam War.
(19:42):
And he said, look at whatthe world is like right now.
So we went on to talk about,like, being relevant to today.
So that was the thinking when I waslistening to your conversation with
You know, Anglin's work and yourwork, although you're from a very
different generation, many differentbackgrounds, but there's a lot of
things that you can make relevantto today and to each other's works.
(20:03):
And my experience of looking atyour artwork from, I wrote it down
from Shanghai, Hong Kong, Berlin,
London Foundation, and Ithink London, New York.
What else?
It's close to like, wow.
I miss your Helsinki one.
Sorry, before we moved to there.
But there's three pieces in the city.
(20:25):
I was asking myself the question,like how different every time I see
your artworks, but I always feellike very, you know, kind of updated
to, cause I'm changing, right?
Since the first time I saw yourworks probably 10 years ago.
And that also kind of makes me wonderthe topic that you, you know, you
focus on a lot of kind of time.
One specific example I wish you can,you know, share with our audience
(20:49):
is about the snow piece that youtalk about it because you were
talking about your childhood earlier.
And it sounds like in a way youtry not to kind of talk about your
biography, how that kind of makean impact to your current life.
But the story you told about the snow kindof answered that question a little bit.
Right?
I'm sure your son will look atthe snow now playful, beautiful.
It's different than your childhood.
Alicja Kwade (21:11):
Yeah, I mean, but I have to jump shortly back to your
cul de sac story, because I loveyour cul de sac story, because this
is, like, exactly why I startedto believe in public art so much.
And I have a similar cul de sac story,but I mean, I was focusing on art back
then already, but I was about 15, andI was going to school in Hannover, in
the city of Hannover, and we, you know,every time we've been, like, cheating and
(21:31):
getting out from the classes, We wouldmeet at the big orange thing, you know,
to smoke pot and to have beer or whatever.
And I'd just seen it fromunderneath, you know, so I've just
seen this orange kind of dome.
And I never got that that was a sculpture.
It took me quite a while.
And once I got it, I was, that's sofantastic, you know, to have this big,
It's a big immense thing just in thecity sitting next to the river, but just,
(21:54):
you know, to kind of connect to your,
Luyang Jiang (21:56):
um, co listering.
No wonder every time I, especially,you know, including a couple of
years ago, I think the one thatyou did with Art Basel, um, it was
like two years ago, I think, right?
I didn't check the map.
With your work, it's also kind of weird.
Like I kind of always ran intoyour work, not by planning or
some of the exhibition planned.
But that one, particularly, I walked byon the bridge, rushing to my next meeting,
(22:18):
and I saw, also, that's Alicia's work.
Alicja Kwade (22:20):
Yes, it's not, actually, it's funny, I mean, I love my snow piece.
I think it's a very, everybody,every artist can kind of, I think,
follow my, you know, the speeding.
So every time you're doing a new piece,it's like, you know, like, euphoric.
You're like, yes, youknow, that's fantastic.
But then it changes sometimes,but, um, so I was very afraid
about snow peas and I still am.
It's just kind of very untypical for me.
(22:41):
I think that people notalways recognize it with me.
I had it in Mexico first, nowI'm having it in Los Angeles.
And it's actually this, because it lookslike dirty city snow, so it's not this
perfect kind of white, you know, uh,virgin like whatever idea of a snow.
But it's more, I took like somegrayish, you know, Carrara.
So, um, and what I did that I've beenwaiting to do this piece for many years,
(23:06):
but it was never snowing in Berlin.
You should come to Helsinki next time.
Yes.
It was not snowing in Berlin.
It was not snowing in Berlin.
And then I go back to my childhood.
And then I was sitting there withJohn, my assistant, and I was
like, John, we have to go to Norwayor like to Helsinki right now.
It's the last chance to do that.
And she was like, you know, my sister,she's living in Vancouver and she's
always fighting and complaining aboutall the snow and on her parking slot.
(23:28):
And she's like a tech freak, you know,so I can ask her to 3D scan it for us.
And I was like, okay, really?
Okay.
So, uh, we asked sister Joand she 3D scanned it for us.
I mean, the snow she had inthe city on her parking slot.
And so it's the originaldata of this moment, of this
specific day in February 2022.
And why I really wanted to do thepiece is that I remember, like,
(23:51):
I mean, I don't know what it was.
It came back to my memory, I think.
But first of all, I kind of, every time Isee snow in cities, like this moment, you
see something, you wish to kind of have itor, you know, as a child to play with it.
But it's kind of already coming dirtyand ugly, and in the moment you want
(24:14):
to, you hope for more, it disappears.
So it's this very, um, slight momentof a natural phenomenon, which is
implanted in the city structures,and which actually has not so much
to do with a natural phenomenon,rather than with a memory, to me.
Of course, it's different if youlive in Helsinki, I guess, or,
(24:35):
you know, or wherever, you know.
Probably doesn't have a story,but like, actually, at my, in my
childhood, and it was the case.
And so I kind of tried to, youknow, capture kind of this moment of
phenomena, which is already disappearingin the moment you look at it.
And it never is, you know, keepingthe same shape or attitude.
(24:56):
Yeah, it's like memories, actually.
It's like whenever you lookat them, they are different.
And then you think, you know, you inventthem yourself as if you would invent
like a beautiful day playing in the snow.
For me in Katowice, actually, it wasplaying in the dirt and not in the snow.
But I, you know, I've been tryingto put this imagination on it.
I think it has also to do because mybirthday is in January, so I always
(25:19):
was hoping for, you know, like, snow.
And yeah, usually it was like a, you know,dirty mix of coal and dust and whatever.
But it's even not so much about myself.
It's really about, you know, kindof capturing this moment and also
thinking about natural phenomenons.
This, also about this idea, I mean,you know, I would never like, you
(25:40):
know, raise my finger and say, Oh,don't do that, don't take care.
But it's probably a phenomena assnow itself will just get a memory.
in 50 years or 100.
It's something which will not appear anylonger and then it's actually not this
cliche thing which I was trying to makevisible but more like this This piece
of real city life and memory, yeah.
Luyang Jiang (26:02):
Every time I look at your work, I mean, it's
always very pleasant to look.
I remember our interview with Sandyalso, I think in the very beginning
of the conversation he mentionedthat lots of people look at color's
work and think it's beautiful.
He says this is really, you know, not,it should be, and it's more than that.
But your work also, Ithink, it's beautiful.
It's so easy to look at it, but atthe same time, you don't know why.
(26:24):
I think it's from my earlydays looking at your work.
Normally, if it's something I'm veryinterested in, I try not to read too much
text because I want it to feel like myown kind of organic reaction to that.
So you feel this kind of deepnessthere, but at the same time also
the light weight of sense of humor.
Then after I start listening to more ofyour conversation, I'm like, Oh, you know,
(26:45):
that's actually something in her work.
So I'm glad that I had the experience toexperience that first before I listened
to your self explanation on that part.
How do you manage to do that?
Because I feel like a lot ofartwork you look at it, if it's a
deep feeling that very, you know,very heavy, it's hard to balance.
And at the same time, you can alsoadd this, the humor part into it.
(27:05):
You
Alicja Kwade (27:05):
know, to be honest, for now, I really had a lucky life.
So I had no real dramas in my life.
So that's why it's probably easy for meto, you know, to find humor in everything
which I feel is deep and sad and eventragic, you know, for me, like each
kind of tragical situation automaticallyleads to a certain kind of humor.
(27:26):
Because things you can't get overand they are getting absurd, you
know, like looking at us people.
I mean, just looking at ahuman being is just pure fun.
I mean, those creatures, you know,who like believes that one is
better than the other one becauseof different colors or whatever,
different heights, different genders.
It's just pure fun.
It's so ironic.
(27:46):
It's so stupid that youcan just laugh, right?
So for me, whatever I try to researchon, you know, even if I try to understand
the most difficult physics if I tryto understand the world on its own
and then I go further, you know, fromsociety to, you know, and then I kind
of leave, leave the atmosphere andI look at the planet and then I'm in
the void and it's so hard to believe.
(28:08):
So it's just the only thing is tolove about it, you know, a love about
yourself, you know, because we areall taking ourselves so serious and I
think it's a pure, you know, the humanitself is like a satire, you know,
like a satiric creature on its own.
And that's why I believe that humoris a very important tool also to solve
(28:28):
things and to solve things for yourselfbecause otherwise you can just kill
yourself, you know, because we willnever find out anything about those
things which are so important for us.
And being kind of in this situationto know that you will never know,
you have kind of to deal with that.
You can love about it or you can just,you know, be super depressed about it.
(28:48):
But that's why I always tryto give it a little, you know.
A little to kind of also show these piecesof humor, which are indeed sourced from
my very serious research or feeling.
Luyang Jiang (29:05):
After the break, Alicia explores how the scientific influences
in her work reveal our shared humanity.
From our common genetic code to ourstruggle to escape the passage of time,
Will Griffith (29:19):
don't transact without the bare facts.
Subscribe to the Fairfax newsletter toreceive the key developments in the art
world and op-Eds from Josh Bear in yourinbox each Thursday plus special auction
editions direct from the sale room.
The only report on who bought whatand who tried to but didn't get it.
Head to thebearfax.
com to learn more and check out ourfull range of content offerings.
Luyang Jiang (29:46):
Well, listening to you, the image in my head was the exhibition,
I think it was 2020 in Berlin Galleria.
Yes.
Where you produced this biginstallation with your own DNA elements.
I, I found that one, maybebecause it's during pandemic.
This is, uh, one of your exhibitionI left was very kind of heavy
(30:09):
hearted, but at the same time, Ilike how you interpreted earlier.
It was a kind of, you know, it'sironic and especially during that
time what the world was going through.
I think we were still wearing masksgoing through, you know, inside your
exhibition, looking at all those, itwas like a couple hundred thousand pages
of paper with your DNA coding on itand with your own heart beats, right?
(30:30):
That exhibition kind of reallyleft me with lots of questions.
Today, when I'm talking to you, Istill feel like my heart is pumping.
Alicja Kwade (30:39):
Yeah, that was an easy one.
Especially that I really, youknow, this heartbeat was like
a, I had this life tracker.
It was called in Abwesenheis,which means in absence.
And so I was watching likethis smart, um, watch.
Of course, my heartbeat itself was prerecorded because you cannot implant
like a microphone in your heart.
But so we kind of pre recorded myheart sequence like in a normal beating
(31:00):
and then, but I had this clock andit was, you know, uh, transferring,
uh, live the signal of my heartbeat.
So whenever I was, you know,cycling, whatever it was,
then it got, you know, slow.
Which is very embarrassing, you know, so,that's why I decided, due to the title as
well, that whenever I was stepping in theroom, it was jumping over to the recorded.
(31:22):
You know, kind of prerecorded.
So it was never like thenkind of free because of you.
But thank you for saying that.
But yeah, I mean, youknow, what can I say?
It's really like about for me, I'mgetting so obsessed with certain
themes when I work on them and I tryto find as you know, like everything
out about one topic as much as I can.
Just to understand it to the fullest,to kind of, you know, probably also get
(31:43):
to a point where it then starts to bemy own work in a way that of course I
cannot, and I don't need to actuallyprove it or understand it to the very
deepest, but I mean, in this DNA work,for example, you know, I've been working
with a friend of mine, he is a bureauchemist, and so, you know, he explained
to me, and this is so fascinating, Imean, I learned so much about that, you
know, and then it was kind of filling my.
(32:06):
which was just like a loose ideain the beginning with so much input
somehow because the more I learnedabout it the more valuable but also
like ironic it got you know, I meanwhat this DNA is that it was made of
12 reference people that you know, 99.
9 percent it's all the same to everyoneBut at least like 90 percent of this 99.
(32:29):
9 is just the information for theDNA, how it should fit in the cell.
Who the hell was givingit this information?
You know, so it gets so, it'slike science fiction, you know?
But it's also frightening alittle bit, because, you know, I'm
still convinced that I'm wrong.
That if people, if we would be educatedon some issues, like for example the
(32:50):
DNA, that everybody is the hell the same.
There's not a big difference between.
I believe that if people would know aboutit and understand it, There would be,
for example, no racism, no, you know,because there is no reason for it, you
know, but unfortunately it's not true.
I mean, that is then like somethingshocking to be aware of that, you know,
that even knowledge is not helping.
(33:12):
So what the hell is it?
You know, my
Luyang Jiang (33:13):
daughter said, Something to me kind of almost like a shock.
I mean, you know, again, I toldyou earlier, she's turning seven.
So, um, I start reading Sophie'sworld to her since last year and
she's definitely fascinated, right?
And then she started kind ofrecording herself using my phone,
like doing like, who are we?
Like, she told me that question,like, you know, cause you were saying
like, um, what the hell is those?
(33:35):
Like, cause everything, prettymuch what we're saying right now,
it's like human defined or webeen given definition about it.
My daughter asked me this, she said,Mommy, you know, because she loves animals
and nature, and she gets really angry whenshe sees, like, people are doing it, and
she's like, that's so wrong, you know,they came in before us, you know, and she
said, I forgot what we were talking about,she said, but Mommy, what if it wasn't?
(33:58):
It's just like, wehumans give that, right?
But the nature exists long before us.
Like, I don't even knowhow to answer her question.
It's like, wow.
Alicja Kwade (34:07):
I mean, she's right.
I mean, sometimes it's like, to behonest, I'm a very ironic person.
And I'm always saying, you know, forme, humanity is like a plug, you know?
I mean, I see it a bit like a daughter.
You know, this world is existingabout four million years.
Humans, and they're just for,I mean, it's so not important.
We're so tiny.
It's so tiny.
It's not important at all.
Luyang Jiang (34:25):
But unfortunately, most of us think that, you
know, we think, where are they?
But also,
Alicja Kwade (34:29):
and I actually, I have even to laugh about this problem.
Okay.
It's like a differentunderstanding probably I have.
I don't know.
But for me also, of course, it's importantto take care of this planet and take
care of it and whatever, you know, andmake sure that we are saving the world.
But I think the wrong thinking iswe are trying to save ourselves.
The planet does not need us.
It's going to be super fine without us.
(34:49):
It's not going to heat up and explode.
It's going to be fine.
It's just about our selfish,you know, it's about us.
And then we try to whatever,wrap it up to something else.
It's about us.
I mean, and for sure, for right andstuff, but it's not, you know, the
planet is super fine without us.
No problem at all.
I
Luyang Jiang (35:08):
mean, again, just by talking to you, like almost everything,
you know, there's a, some topickind of supposed to be heavy topic.
You always can, you know, talkin a very kind of light way,
but with a very meaningfulinterpretation, absolutely enjoy it.
Another key words I was thinkingabout is, uh, you know, when you were
talking about your childhood story, howyou and your family end up coming to
(35:29):
Germany, you know, the word of escaping.
And I know one of your big hero, ifI could quote you, is Hobini, right?
Yeah, Hobini, yeah.
And I wonder, I was, uh, earlieryou were talking about another
piece you made about escaping,but again, in a very humorous way.
And I know you're a bigfan, you're a bookworm.
Can I call you that?
Alicja Kwade (35:51):
Uh, to be honest, I used to be one, I used to be one.
It's changed a little bit with mychild, as you can, I think, understand.
But, uh, yes, but I was, you know, I'ma very undisciplined person in reading.
I mean, I was always reading like,you know, like, like five books in
the meantime, but I probably evenhad no clue who was the author,
but I would just be interested to,you know, whatever, to jump in this
(36:12):
topic and this topic and this topic.
And yeah, I mean, I can say two ofmy kind of really like IP persons
on this planet I've been obsessedwith was Nikola Tesla and Houdini.
Yeah, so somehow there are someinterferences between the two
because Tesla got a little bit madin the end and, you know, he started
to talk to aliens or whatever.
Yeah, because it's also like such asmall, you know, a border between kind of
(36:36):
science and, and you've, when you thinkscience further, it really gets something
so abstract that it's like magic, youknow, there's no explanation for it.
I'm not a person who believesin God or something like that.
I feel that somewhere else through.
And what I also love about magicians,and I still love magicians really to the
deepest when I see it, even I understandit, but I, you know, um, that, I mean,
(36:59):
they are using those little gaps of oursenses, you know, because we are very
limited, you know, it's like what wesee and what we believe to see, it's
just an interpretation of our brains,we all know that, but still you can
never see it until you're like watchinga magician, and he is like, It's quick
enough or tricky enough to just sneakaround your attention span or your senses.
(37:24):
And then it's just, you know, fascinating.
It's like, you know, anotherplanet, you're kind of.
Luyang Jiang (37:28):
Yeah, I think knowing those stories and then the background kind
of really helped to look at your work.
I mean, I was thinking about now the workthat you, I forgot the name, but there was
a watch and but turning kind of backwards.
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's against the runor like getting in love in Germany.
Yeah.
Like running against, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Something like that.
It has something to do with escaping.
Alicja Kwade (37:48):
I know, it's more like, you know, it's more like connected to
this idea of Sisyphus, you know, tryingto climb out up this hill with a stone.
But also like us ashumans, you know, trying.
Because this time topic, forme, most of the times it's too
kind of romantic, you know.
Time for myself is not romantic at all.
It's just this issue, thisthing, influencing ourselves.
(38:10):
And that's why we take it so serious.
And we think so much about it becausewe are time limited, you know, things.
And this clock is more like, it'skind of trying to escape itself.
It tries to escape the time but it can't.
And it's like us, we are tryingto escape, you know, to save time.
I mean, alone, the, the, theTo save time or to extend time.
(38:32):
It's always about, like, trying tosqueeze or stretch this time to whatever.
But we can't influence it at all.
We are just, you know, thrown in this kindof stream of time, but it It does things
to us, but we can't do anything about it.
And that's why it's such a, um,important topic to us humans, but
I see it very ironic how we try toalways, you know, kind of struggle
(38:54):
with this time thing all the time.
What were you fighting for?
Yeah, fine.
But there's no way to escape it anyway.
Luyang Jiang (39:03):
I first met Alicia in 2018 when I visited
her preview studio in Berlin.
Even then, I was impressed by herhands on approach, both in creating
her artwork and in managing her studio.
In our final segment, you will hearabout how she's balancing running
her studio and full gear six yearsfurther into her career, while now
(39:25):
also raising her four year old son.
You've been very productive and I,again, just look at your website,
how many exhibitions and theneverywhere, like very different world.
I just wanted to remind you, weactually met in 2018 when you
were still in your old studio.
(39:45):
Yeah, that's true.
You know, I should take outthis photo I wanted to show you.
Ah, that's true.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
That's 2018, April.
Wow.
Okay, cool.
Yes, no, I remember.
Exactly.
Yes.
And I remember I was very fascinated byhow organized, like you, you know, I don't
remember how big your team back then, andthen now we're sitting in your new studio.
(40:06):
So, How many people work in your studio?
Alicja Kwade (40:09):
Ah, too many.
I think we are altogether 50.
But it's not everybody islike full contract, right?
So we have like 15 people like,you know, on full contract, and
then a lot of freelance people.
But I really mean it.
You know, it was never mygoal to get a big studio.
It just kind of happened somehow.
And it happened mostly because atsome point I really started to focus
(40:29):
on public and ultra public sculpture.
And this is kind of forcing you to workin teams and with teams, which is a great
thing, of course, you know, it's justthat sometimes I don't feel like, I mean,
I don't want it to be like a businessperson, you know, I just never wanted to
be this person to organize all of that.
Of course, I have people who areorganizing this for me, but still,
you know, sometimes You're verymuch involved in all the details.
(40:50):
Yes, I am.
And I can't let it go.
I don't know.
I'm possibly a control freakor something like that.
I don't know.
I can't.
I simply can't.
And that's why I love those people.
And it's beautiful.
And it's great because we can getall the things done very fastly all
over the world, which is amazing.
But of course it brings also all thiskind of, you know, daily life problems
of so many people being like on one spot.
And actually, to behonest, I love to be alone.
(41:12):
So I love, it's kind of, I'mreally lucky when I'm alone.
It was always like that,even when I was a child.
I always preferred to be onmy own, since I was a kid.
So I'm
Luyang Jiang (41:21):
missing that a little bit right now.
This is kind of related to the firstquestion we were talking about, the
artist role, and how do you balance that?
Artists, you need to have yourown space for creating your art.
And at the same time, like you said,you kind of naturally grow into,
for example, managing the team.
You used the word corporation earlierfor, you know, different topic, but
from what I see, you know, first timemeeting you in 2018, you're old studio.
(41:45):
And now, you know, we came herea little bit earlier seeing your
team, you know, very organized in adifferent rooms, a different purpose.
And you're running exhibitionsin the same time simultaneously
in a different part of the world.
That's a manager of a company.
Alicja Kwade (42:00):
I know, yeah, it is, somehow.
But, no, I mean, it's great, for sure.
It's just kind of somehowfunny because of the people who
know me a little bit better.
I'm not a very organized person, actually.
Myself.
I hate things like cleaning upand, you know, like I'm really bad.
I'm a mess, actually.
And I think there's a deep desire of thisempty, clean spaces and organized things,
(42:22):
which I personally can't at all, you know?
And actually my first assistant,Philip, he's a very dear friend and an
artist himself, he was kind of sayingonce to the new team members, he was
like, you know, actually the task isto clean up the mess after Alicia.
Luyang Jiang (42:39):
They kind of organized her.
How does that work afteryou have a little kid?
I mean, yeah, even worse.
You know why I'm asking this, right?
Because I can't feel very much related.
Yeah,
Alicja Kwade (42:51):
no, honestly, it's the only thing that I'm really
missing, you know, the time.
But I mean, it will come again, I'm sure.
But it's like, you know, having a smallchild and an operation running like
this here is like, I mean, I you know,I'm bringing him to the kindergarten
rushing to be here on time, thenlike doing all whatever I have to do.
Then, you know, lookingat the watch and it's 6.
30 and I have to rush back totake over from the babysitter
(43:14):
who was picking him up from Kita.
So, actually there's no time left at all.
And then because the week is sofull, of course, you know, I want to
spend time with him, so I'm tryingto have the weekends with him.
But indeed, yes, I'm missingtime for my own work.
What I try to achieve sometimes hereis that, you know, I'm taking kind of,
that my partner's taking over one dayor so, and I'm like, okay, I'm staying
(43:36):
in the studio until night, you know, soI have this one day or two, depending
on the schedules where I'm just here.
Long at night and I love it.
Yeah, I try to, you know, escape like forone hour and two in between All the other
fun here, but this is one point I'm reallymissing Yeah, because this is honestly
and it's funny to say and probably a bitinhuman but the kind of purest One of
(43:58):
the worst luck situations in my life isbeing alone in my studio with myself,
having music loud on, and not beingincluded in the rest of this world at all.
And I'm missing that.
Luyang Jiang (44:10):
Well, that's very honest, but I mean, I work from
home, so I don't have a studio,so I have nowhere to escape.
That's why I enjoy living in Finland.
That's true.
You know, I go runningor cycling in the woods.
Even during a snow day, it's nice.
Yeah, I'm also running alot, but it just came also
Alicja Kwade (44:26):
with travels and cicada and whatever and jet lags.
Luyang Jiang (44:28):
Do you see the change after, I mean, besides of the daily
routine in a more limited time ofbeing alone, which is something I
also, you know, feel very much related.
How much do you think that madeimpact might be a wrong word and the
different way of for you to make art?
After you have your son for three anda half years, almost four years now.
(44:50):
To
Alicja Kwade (44:50):
be honest, I'm not, I, you know, I, but it's, I did it on purpose.
I don't want it to change.
And why?
Because people, you know, when I was like,obviously pregnant and the, you know,
last month, I was not telling anyone untilit was like month eight or something.
And people feel like saying, Oh, yourlife is going to change completely.
Everything's going to change completely.
And I was so fed up about that.
And so I kind of decided, no,I don't want my life to change.
(45:12):
I want to prove to you thatit's not going to change.
It's not your fucking business.
So it was kind of, and, so I tried not,and actually it, of course it changed,
like, you know, to the organization wise.
Yes, of course, I can'tstay here each night.
Yes, of course, I'm tryingto be home at the weekends.
But my way of kind of working andseeing the world and, you know,
(45:33):
the amount of my exhibitions, allof that hasn't changed at all.
And even it increased.
I mean, I have to be moreconcentrated and faster.
Because your timetable is so limited.
It's limited, but it's fine.
And it was kind of supportingthis decision in myself.
Whenever I got this firstinterviews after I got the chat,
I don't even know how they knew.
(45:54):
But it was like, the first questionwas always like, Oh, it must
have changed for you and stuff.
Your life has been, I waslike, Why are you asking?
I mean, it's like, whatkind of question is that?
You know?
And then I got really mean and erotic.
I was like, you know, somebody's life canchange because of a different haircut.
You know?
What the fuck?
It's so, it's a always towards women.
It's always towards women, because No,you almost, and it's also unfair also, you
(46:17):
know, the guys' lives are changing or not.
I mean, it's why I feltlike it's so old fashioned.
It's so stupid.
I mean, yes, it changed due toorganizational things and stuff, but it
kind of seems hard when I say that, but nomyself and my life hasn't changed so much.
I mean, I'm of course verybeautifully enriched with this.
(46:37):
Little human creature I can kind oflove and see growing and it's like,
Luyang Jiang (46:41):
it's funny, you know?
I don't know if it is something you woulddo ever if you have a group of young
visitors like, you know My daughter'sage because that's one of the things
I'm planning to do taking her and herfriends to go to the local museums to see
a show with Animals and I'm strugglingbecause it has been I will say compared
to my other preparation for the showsThis is very hard like I'm not What
(47:05):
kind of questions I should ask them?
What would you do?
Alicja Kwade (47:09):
I mean, I would just let them ask you, you
know, just let them free.
I mean, they should probably Try to figureout themselves first because then you
are not pre interpreting anything becauseI think we all have and it's so hard I
mean, I think it's a saying Picasso saidonce and I don't like because I'm so
much because of my sex But there's onenice saying and he said it takes a very
(47:32):
long time to get young And it's you knowto be kind of aware of kind of those
filters We have and those kind of shapeswe are in and to get rid of them again
Luyang Jiang (47:43):
I like that quote.
It takes us a long time to be young.
I mean, I feel like I'm goingthrough that process, like remind
myself, like how I used to be likethis, but you know, growing up,
Alicja Kwade (47:54):
seeing it positively aging can be something very
good to get younger again.
So we're learning, learning curve.
Luyang Jiang (48:04):
Such a lovely conversation.
Thank you.
And I was very excited to come here andvisit your new studio for the first time.
Also, lots of stories you mentioned todaygive me a lot of kind of confirmation
of my reaction to your artwork.
Alicja Kwade (48:16):
so much.
I'm so happy that you've seen so many.
I'm very impressed.
I'd
Luyang Jiang (48:24):
like to give a big thank you to my friend Alicia for joining us
as our guest on the Barefax podcast.
This episode is broughtto you by David Zoner.
I'm your host and executiveproducer Luyang Jiang.
Our content strategist is Boliang Shen.
Our associate editor is Will Griffith.
And our editing team is Mona Productions.
(48:45):
Check back soon for future episodesas we unpack the inner workings of the
global art industry through exclusive,candid interviews with key players
in the business, as they offer theirperspectives on art and the market
in the U S, Europe, Asia, and beyond.
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