April 11, 2024 • 32 mins
This episode marks the one-year anniversary of The Baer Faxt Podcast, and the second episode of Baer with Me, our mini-series of The Baer Faxt Podcast hosted by our President, Luyang Jiang, with market insights from Josh Baer.
On the last day of our busy Hong Kong Art Week, Josh and Luyang sat down with The Baer Faxt's team members based in Asia, Boliang Shen, our Content Strategist in Shanghai, and Claire Huang, our Business Development Consultant in Hong Kong, to compare their observations from Art Basel Hong Kong and the flurry of other market events.
Listen as Josh and the team share their on-the-ground scoop on the art market in Hong Kong and Asia, from gallery sales reports, to changes in the ways collectors transact and where they come from.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Luyang Jiang (00:02):
Just as I was about to board my flight to Hong Kong
on March 23rd, my phone buzzed.
It was the first anniversaryof the Baer Faxt podcast.
Exactly one year ago, during Hong KongArt Week, Josh and I launched our podcast.
It was Art Basel Hong Kong'sfirst edition after the pandemic.
For many people, it was an emotionalreunion, and for Josh and The
(00:25):
Baer Faxt, it was our first timecovering this major artwork on site.
A year has passed quickly, and wehave experienced many exciting firsts.
We went back to Hong Kong this yearas a supporting media partner of Art
Basel Hong Kong, and the live streamedFive, the Baer Faxt live interviews
on the fair's VIP opening day.
(00:46):
We were also invited by the UpperHouse Hong Kong to launch the Baer Faxt
talk series, where we introduced theBaer Faxt Collector's Circle program.
More details to come in our show.
And most importantly,our team has expanded.
Josh and I were joined in Hong Kongby our two colleagues based in Asia.
(01:07):
On our last day there, we sat down todiscuss our observations On the art
market in Hong Kong and Asia in thisepisode of bear with me, you will
hear my conversation with Josh Baer,our founder and CEO, Guo Liangsheng,
our content strategist in Shanghaiand Claire Huang, our business
development consultant in Hong Kong.
Josh Baer (01:29):
It's great to be back in Hong Kong.
I'm already an experthaving been here twice.
Luyang Jiang (01:33):
You do look more like a, you know, local here compared to a year ago.
Josh Baer (01:37):
And I will say at the fair, I have been treated to a lot
of, are you Josh Baer, which is great.
And then it's like, I love your podcast.
And that makes you
Luyang Jiang (01:46):
very happy, right?
Yes.
Josh Baer (01:47):
I'm thrilled as the, uh, non executive producer.
Luyang Jiang (01:51):
And as the executive producer, I'm always
very happy to hear that.
As we're recording today, it's actuallyFriday, and which is the day four of
the fair and opening to the public.
Should we start by asking you to givethe audience a little bit summary?
What do you see of the fair,especially now it's your second
(02:13):
edition of Hong Kong Basel?
Josh Baer (02:15):
I've been having a sort of running battle with another journalist
about the state of the art market andhow they have to understand that not
getting all these big sales results inthe first 30 minutes of a fair means
the art market is down the toilet.
And I'd like to think that Hauserand Wirth doing 30 million worth
(02:36):
of business in the first day.
It's kind of significant.
Also made me think that's probablymore art than was sold during all
of art Singapore, the whole fairput together one booth out of 250.
So there's real business here.
Luyang Jiang (02:50):
Do you have anything particular you like or
anything kind of surprises you?
I mean, I always ask this question,but nothing surprises Josh Baer.
Josh Baer (02:58):
I was surprised at how many Western galleries bring Asian
artists now, and wondering if thatwas just, um, cuddling up to an
Asian audience, but I think not.
Those are artists they work with,and I don't think you would have
seen that here a long time ago.
Claire, you live in Hong Kong.
You've been to maybe 10 yearsworth of Hong Kong fairs.
(03:21):
Do you notice that change, or isthat just something I imagine?
Claire Huang (03:25):
I would say that change is noticeable.
So, for the Western galleries, Ithink they're definitely bringing
more Asian art back to Asia.
And inside Asia, I can see that a lotof galleries Even the local Hong Kong
galleries, who used to target, showcasemore artists from China, they began
(03:46):
to present artists from the widerregion inside Asia, including Southeast
Asia, Korea and Japan, and even India.
For me, that reason might bethat they're no longer targeting
collectors from mainland China astheir, you know, main priority.
They're also targeting othercollectors inside Asia and
Luyang Jiang (04:08):
overseas.
So, Bo Liang, as a writer anda curator from mainland China,
what does this fair mean to you?
Boliang Shen (04:15):
For me, I think Art Basel Hong Kong is an exciting
platform to understand the diversityof art world in Asia, especially
for the amount of participation ofSoutheast Asian galleries, which I
don't always see other major fairs.
I think I gained a lot of insight into theissues that their artists are exploring
and the preferences of their collectorsand how they construct their artistic
(04:40):
narrative to engage with the internationalcommunity, which is quite different from
what I learned from living and workingin China and New York over the years.
Josh Baer (04:51):
I think how we define things, it's becoming more
and more important about art.
I was reminded of A friend of mine whowas in Qatar and a senior museum director
used the term post war art and the sheikahsaid, which war are you talking about?
So terms that we've come intoregular context, Southeast Asian
(05:16):
art, contemporary art, they'reactually how we define things.
are much more important than we realize.
So that's why trying to understandthe historic use of these terms
and see to what extent we shouldbe maybe seeing they bias us.
Luyang Jiang (05:33):
Let's talk about the opening hour and Josh, you
know, when the fair opened onTuesday, 12 o'clock, what happened?
Josh Baer (05:42):
Normally, I'm afraid of getting crushed in the crowd in a
stampede to get into Basel Basel where,like, VIP stands for Very Irritating
People, thinking that they deserve tobe there 30 seconds before you, and if
they don't get to that booth 20 secondsbefore you, that masterpiece that you're
paying 4 million is going to be gone.
(06:03):
That didn't happen.
It was a little bit weird.
Like whoa, what's going on?
And I've seen that at other fairs, trythat in New York, the armory show 10
years ago, you could actually go in andtalk to the dealers without thinking
there were nine people standing there andthe dealer looking over your shoulder.
But it was kind of disorienting.
It's like, what's going on?
Is no one coming?
(06:25):
And then it was It seemed to be a slowerphase in of who VIPs are, of course we're
VIPs, we're VVIPs or something like that.
So it was a different feelingand that by four or six o'clock,
There was a different group.
I'll add to that, that coming up, I'm notgoing this time, but Expo Chicago starts
(06:47):
with a professional view at 12 and theyhave a big crowd at six because people
in Hong Kong and people in Chicago, theywork, so they're not traveling here.
So local people are like, I need toput in my full day at the office.
Then I'll come at six o'clock after work.
And by the way, I'm still buying thingsand maybe million dollar things, but I
(07:07):
don't need to get there 10 seconds before,you know, Wendy from New Delhi is there to
buy the, you know, latest Rushdie Johnson.
Luyang Jiang (07:17):
Yeah, because two of us entered the fair from inside the
convention center already, sincewe're doing the Bare Baer Faxt Live.
But most of the VIP visitors asthe first group, when they came
in, there's a something differentthan previous years, right?
And the organizer had a teamto try to direct them to go
to the third floor first.
Josh Baer (07:37):
I was a little confused about first floor and third floor.
So when that happened, I spent most ofmy time on the first day like I usually
do on the ground floor thinking that'swhere the Gagosians the high end stuff is.
And I assumed that the third floorwas like younger galleries mostly.
Lower price points and maybe theywere trying to push people there.
So I was pretty surprised on daytwo when I actually went upstairs.
(07:59):
In fact, that's where Aquavela was.
That's where NAMADs were.
And it's like, wait a second.
There were heavy hitters on both floors.
And some of the younger gallerieswere on both floors too.
So I really didn't understand floor oneversus floor three, which is maybe good.
Why can't we stick a Young Galleryfrom Shanghai next to Pace Gallery?
(08:22):
Would it be better for Pace andthe Young Gallery to have a little
more and more energy rather thanPace's across from the ocean?
Luyang Jiang (08:29):
One of my personal favorites, uh, in terms of the floor
plan there, the Discovery section,which hosts a lot of Young Galleries,
As you remember, a couple of the younggatherers in the discovery section are
right next to Hauser and Davidsoner.
Josh Baer (08:43):
Well, they're in an aisle on the other side.
So generally, the way I go through a fair,I wouldn't have gone through that section.
Or I wouldn't go throughthat section to the last.
Now, there's other people, that'swhere they head right away.
So we have to remember there are manytargets, many types of collectors
looking at different price points,looking to find things they already
know about, or to discover new things.
Luyang Jiang (09:05):
Because I go to art fairs in the different regions with you,
I know you have your very fixed wayof how you want to walk around, but
particularly in Hong Kong, I do noticethat people, including the experienced
collectors, they sometimes they don'tdo the same way and then walking out.
I wonder if this is why ArtBasel Hong Kong have a different
(09:25):
concept in terms of organizing thelocations for different galleries.
It might be a good idea.
I like it personally.
And I found it's quite easy tonavigate going directly in the center.
Josh Baer (09:35):
I think, in retrospect, we've been complaining for
years about the crowds.
And if you went into Miami at 11.
05, you'd see like 200 people in theGagosian Gallery, can't even get in.
Some people bitch about that.
So this was done differently.
So I think they shoulddeserve some credit.
I will say, walking around an art fairby myself, is way different than walking
(10:01):
around an art fair with one of my clients.
I will say that is highly stressful,sweat running down my body,
and not a pleasant experience.
On the other hand, it has a muchbetter chance of getting me invoices
and making money, rather than walkingaround by myself, stress free,
not sending out hardly any bills.
(10:23):
So, also, how you're doing it mattersif you're there with a client.
If you're there with a friend, if you'rethere with a museum group, that sort
of relates to different methods, too.
Luyang Jiang (10:37):
Tune in after the break for more of our on the ground
scoop on the market and the ArtBasel Hong Kong, from gallery
sales reports to collector contact.
Don't transact without The Bare Baer Faxt.
Check out our new websiteand thebareBaer Faxt.
com to subscribe to our weekly newsletter.
Featuring OpEx from JoshBaer and key art world news.
(11:00):
And learn about our full range ofproducts and content offerings.
Claire Huang (11:08):
I have a very interesting observation and I have
interviewed many people for this.
Maybe the
Josh Baer (11:14):
judge, if it's interesting, Claire, okay.
Claire Huang (11:17):
Yeah.
So on the major booths.
They feel like there's much less visitors,but for the discovery sector that we're
talking about, they're always crowdedwith people and institutional collectors.
I'm interested to know,especially the ones
Luyang Jiang (11:35):
from museums or institutions, what
brought them there first?
Claire Huang (11:38):
I think for professionals, they already got, you know, PDFs in
advance before even the show opens.
So there's a portion of theprofessionals who indeed just go
directly to discovery sector becausemany of them got already a little bit
fatigued with all the, you know, kindof single, single portfolios that was
(12:01):
brought every year by major galleries.
This year for the Discoveries booth,they have put real effort into
preparing the artists and the program.
For example, I know Mangrove, who broughtTanjing exhibited last year during
Shanghai Art Week in Rockbound Museum,and also Tabula Rasa, who brought Li
(12:21):
Kaichong, an artist collected by M AndI do know this, There's many curators
and professionals from institutionswalking around for two days in this
discovery sector talking with artists.
Josh Baer (12:36):
If you're an art advisor, you travel all this way, 10 percent
of 8, 000 isn't going to cut it.
So you're not going to be there.
You might be there tobuy stuff for yourself.
You can do this for the last.
So as an art advisor, it's like,well, Well, let me take a look
at that Mark Bradford for threeand a half million dollars.
It's just going to be, sothat's price point sensitive.
(13:00):
Also, I think price point, as you wrote,there was a lot of action under 10, 000.
Some of it is absolutely, I can believeyou that it's like better preparation.
The curators weren't just wanderingthrough in discover, to discover,
they'd already discovered.
And now they wanted to go deeper.
So it's not a pure discovery, always.
(13:22):
But I think it's like, youalso have to see the self
interest of people at the fair.
Luyang Jiang (13:28):
We've been hearing a rating in terms of the transactions,
the deals made during the past few days.
The high end transaction compared topre COVID, it's definitely less, right?
And as Josh mentioned a couple of times,you know, including our talks yesterday,
we don't have those kind of PR releasein the first few hours and XYZ number was
(13:48):
a big dollar sign has been already made.
So what's your general view,um, the first couple of days and
then in terms of the dealmaking?
Josh Baer (13:57):
I think people came with low expectations that
were by day two were exceeded.
The expectation is there's going to bea flurry over the weekend of dealmaking.
Some of that is like you don'treally want to take that home.
Can I have 20 percent instead of 10%?
And there's less of a stigmato buy something on day four.
(14:23):
And most of the otherfairs last five years.
If you saw something on the booth on aFriday or Saturday that was available,
the assumption was, what's wrong with it?
Why does no one want it?
Whereas if you did an exhibition atyour gallery, you don't expect that
by day three, a hundred percent ofthe works in an exhibition are sold.
(14:43):
It takes weeks or a month ortwo months to sell everything.
So I think we're talking about a slowerpace, which is better for the buyer.
And as long as we do well enough,it's fine for the galleries.
Luyang Jiang (14:56):
So I remember day one, the couple of galleries we met in the
first hour, they all use the same wordwhen you ask them, how's it going?
So it's kind of mixing or confused.
Josh Baer (15:08):
Freaked out.
I don't think I used that term,but it's like I could see them
in the headlights a little bit.
Luyang Jiang (15:14):
But later after four, the second group and the
second day, when you went back.
Boliang Shen (15:18):
They were relieved.
Most of the galleries I talked withduring the second and the third day
told me that it was much slower, butthe results were not bad, including
both Chinese and the Western galleries.
I think most of them have beenparticipating in the fair for years.
But maybe for international galleriesattending the fair for the first
time or returning after several yearsof the pandemic, their situation
(15:41):
might be relatively challenging.
Josh Baer (15:43):
I was in a gallery and I was looking at something and
they had opened in the same timeI did, sort of like the mid 80s.
of New York City on the Lower EastSide and they had a painting there.
It was a good painting, it was 900, 000.
I said, when we open that wasmore than we would sell in a year.
And they said, right.
(16:04):
And then that was one paintingin one fair 30 or 40 years later.
So the definition of not bad has changed.
They've made the point that theirexpenses have gone up there.
So it's a matter of howmuch risk they've taken on.
Luyang Jiang (16:19):
Then the gallery coming from Mainland China, the
travel expense is much lower and theykeep their team relatively small.
Claire Huang (16:26):
And the logistics will cost much less.
Josh Baer (16:30):
Then Basel Basel tend to be super expensive and then the risk
is so great, so which promotes themtaking the safest shots of being the
most commercial they can be, and it'skind of a vicious cycle of losing
discovery or trying things out.
Claire Huang (16:48):
I actually have a question for Josh.
It's purely my guess, but I noticedthat maybe there's another reason
for why the, you know, high priceartworks sales are not coming back
as expected because they're bringingsome paintings that are not sold
(17:09):
in previous private sales or fairs.
I don't wanna be name calling, butI do notice three top galleries
bringing some big names and theirartworks were seen on last year's.
Uh, BA bass, also on Fri Soul.
And also later I do identifyone of them in an auction house.
(17:32):
Yeah.
Luyang Jiang (17:33):
You mean exactly the same
Claire Huang (17:35):
artworks?
Yeah, and you showed up thisyear on the first floor.
Josh Baer (17:39):
Well, I think you see over time things that were bought
in at auction or the auction houseguaranteed showing up at an art fair.
There are people who don't like to buy atauction, who like to buy from galleries.
There's also been a price correction.
So at the higher end, prices are down.
Twenty or thirty percent.
So maybe there was an aspirationalprice of five million dollars in
(18:03):
Basel and now it's priced at three.
So that can be a reboot.
There's also harder to get secondarymaterial because the market's softer.
So galleries are bringingtheir own owned inventory.
So if you didn't sell it inMiami, you might give it a
try here because you own it.
And you might try it at a different level.
(18:25):
I think there's an assumption, oh, itdidn't sell before, hence it's bad.
And people have to get over that idea too.
Some things really suckand sell right away.
And some things are reallygreat and take a while to sell.
You have to analyze them piece by piece.
You can't just follow the moneyand think you know what's going on.
Luyang Jiang (18:45):
I left Hong Kong in 2017, but lived here for six to seven years,
and comparing to back then, especiallywhen the collectors were looking at
the Western art, contemporary art,compared to their knowledge and their
demands now, I definitely see thesignificantly, you know, being matured.
And then another topic you hear peopletalk about a lot, like, if you come to
(19:10):
this region, bring the best quality ofwork from whichever you're coming from,
do you think that has been changed?
Josh Baer (19:17):
There's only one fair with great, great, great, it's at
Luyang Jiang (19:20):
Basel, Basel,
Josh Baer (19:21):
Basel, but that's my view.
Claremont, to see it from a regionalthing, is the quality been the
same, better, higher, lower overthese 10 years you've been coming?
Yeah.
Claire Huang (19:34):
I feel like it's a big question that I used to ask to myself.
I used to live in New York forseveral years and I'm very familiar
with the fairs in Europe as well.
I won't say that the quality of theartworks bringing to Asia has been
better or worse because I always noticethat, especially for Western galleries,
(19:57):
they have, um, Label or have somepre assumptions on Asia collectors.
So they bring the artworks not classifiedby quality, but you know, falls into
the category of what they think theart the Asian collectors will like.
And that might not be, you know,the best within dec cooling, but
(20:19):
will be the willing DeCooningthat they think Asias will like.
Luyang Jiang (20:24):
Stay with us in a moment to hear more about Hong Kong's role
in the international art market.
And our take on the question everyone'sasking, is Hong Kong going to be replaced
as the capital of the Asian art market?
Don't transact without the Baer Faxted.
Follow us on Instagram, YouTube, andother platforms to watch the Baer
(20:48):
Faxted live from Art Basel, Hong Kong.
Where we interviewed top insiders andthe VIP opening of the fair and our Hong
Kong edition of the Baer Faxt Talks.
A panel was leading artadvisors on the current state
and future of the art market.
It's not just about our Basel 'causewe talk about a lot, you know, the
(21:11):
ecosystem for our community here.
I want to switch the topic to alittle bit what's happening this week.
I know, especially Claire hasbeen to lots of exhibitions.
And last year, we'dmentioned the M plus opening.
And this year coming back, and there wasalso a big conference, and M plus hosted,
which I heard it's over 1000 attendees.
(21:33):
So maybe give our listeners a perspectiveof what's happening in this week.
Claire Huang (21:37):
This week, Hong Kong government also puts great efforts
and a big budget, so we have, I think,over 200 of events opening, including
the major culture summit organized bythe Hong Kong government and the West
Kowloon Cultural District, and theywere inviting professionals all over the
(21:59):
world to talk about art and the economy.
And from the individual level, I thinkall the events and gallery shows are
really doing a great job, and I heard thattheir sales are spectacular, actually.
And we're having a lot of eventsaround the city in M Parasite, and
(22:20):
Taekwoon Contemporary, and they'redoing some performance art and some
film screening that cannot be, ina way, shown in mainland China.
But we do have a lot of visitorsfrom mainland China, so Hong Kong, I
think, still holds its very specialposition in a way of documenting
(22:43):
all these important happenings.
Luyang Jiang (22:46):
Couldn't stop thinking the two questions.
One is about being international.
One is about Hong Kong's position.
I'm speaking from my own experience.
Um, you know, coming to the art fair inHong Kong, the first night when we arrived
in the airport, I saw a Disha Prada.
It was a, you know, artist based inBerlin, and then she had a whole booth at
(23:07):
Pace Gallery, which represents her now.
She's one of my favorite artists,and I have been to her studio.
And then, when you walk in the,the ground floor of the fair.
In the center is Hui GongYong's huge installation.
Currently she's having a solo exhibitionin Han Museum in Helsinki where we live.
And then I keep running togalleries from Berlin and also
Cologne where we used to live.
(23:29):
To me, this is a partof being international.
The same thing when I go to Baseland to Paris and New York and Miami.
What kind of troubles me is like whenpeople, you know, we read on the press
and people talking about like, okay,Hong Kong is less international now.
There are not many Westerners coming.
Sorry, Joshua, you mentioned that too.
But my question is like, when youtalk about being international,
(23:50):
are we too narrow minded?
Talking about just NewYorker collector coming here.
What international means, what does itmean international, you know, matters
to the people who are based in theregion when this big event happened.
Second one is about Hong Kong's position.
I have so many friendsliving in Hong Kong.
Not all of them are from Hong Kongoriginally, but All of them are telling
(24:12):
me, first of all, they're all buying art.
They all bought something this week.
They keep telling me, saying, youknow, we want Hong Kong to keep going.
And we don't like what people aretelling us Hong Kong is, it's over.
It's not over.
We love Hong Kong.
I mean, for somebody like me, live herefor six, seven years, Hong Kong still
has a special position in my heart.
(24:33):
So that's why it really bothers me whenI hear this like, okay, XYZ is going to
replace Hong Kong in terms of the art.
What are your thoughts on that?
Claire Huang (24:42):
That's a very big and sentimental question for me.
I will say that I love Hong Kong as muchas I do, but I do see the reasons are
very sound and fair for many internationalinstitutions, bankings, corporates
leaving Hong Kong and relocate toother cities in Asia, including Tokyo,
(25:03):
Singapore, or even New Delhi in India.
As for the question is.
Is X, Y, Z going to replace Hong Kong?
The question is no, but in thesame time as for the question,
what's the future of Hong Kong?
Is the tomorrow going to be better?
The question can still be, I don't know.
The future of Hong Kong is in blur.
(25:25):
In the same time, no othercity can replace Hong Kong.
Boliang Shen (25:30):
I think that when most Western galleries talking about the
potential replacement of Hong Kong, theyare actually considering choosing the
best trading place in Asia, which for themshould be both convenient and spectacular.
I remember about 10 years ago, a numberof Western mega galleries opened their
spaces in Hong Kong and in Shanghai.
But later on, other galleriesstarted to speculating whether
(25:52):
Seoul would be a better place.
Actually, this year, several Chinesegalleries told me that the market
feels much slower, but compared tothe intense buying atmosphere before
the pandemic, they now feel thatit is more rational and healthier.
But it also concerns me a bit because whenthe market here is no longer seen as a
crazy bustling spectacle, whether it willstill attract the same level of attention
(26:16):
in the future from the internationalart world, that is a question.
Claire Huang (26:21):
If we are saying international as in Hong Kong's role and
functionality in bridging the Easternand Western world or as a trading
harbor, then I can see as a bridge isnot going to work as well as in the past.
But it's not because of HongKong is not doing a great work
(26:45):
as bridging the two worlds.
It's because the externaland the bigger questions.
So the two words are dividingand are in disparity.
It's not up to Hong Kong to decidewhether it's being international or not.
Josh Baer (27:00):
Bridges have two sides.
Luyang Jiang (27:02):
Hopefully, bridge can connect and narrow
gaps between the two sides.
Now, speaking of narrowing gaps,I want to bring up another topic
that has been on my mind lately.
As you guys know, I used to workin an investment bank and have
friends and former colleaguesin the financial industry.
They're highly educated and analyticaldecision makers when it comes to
(27:24):
investment and wealth management.
I'm part of the chat group withthem, including bankers, venture
capitalists, and economists.
It's one of my favorite alumninetworks because it foster
intellectual discussion on economics,policies and financial markets.
Two weeks before my trip to Hong Kong,this group had a heated debate about
(27:47):
investing in Hong Kong real estatemarket because there was a new policy
introduced by the local government thatfavored the real estate market, which
led to a large influx of investment.
And After reading their insights,I also invited some of them to
join me at the fair in Hong Kong.
And a few of them told me about theirprevious unpleasant experiences buying
(28:08):
art, where they bought some artworkstheir friends had recommended, and
later found that either the price wasway too high, or the works were fake.
And my first reaction was, whydidn't you do your research?
Or why didn't you hire a good advisor?
I feel that there's a big gap betweentheir knowledge of investment and their
(28:29):
understanding of navigating the art world.
So my question is, how can I help thisgroup of friends and bridge that gap?
Josh Baer (28:37):
One of the biggest things that happened in real
estate in America just happened.
Now, if you follow this, where theability of people who sell real estate
to all charge 6%, which was price fixing.
was blown up by the courts and theysettled to agree not to do that.
And the notion was like, well, if I'mbuying a 50 million house, why should
(29:00):
I give that guy who spent two hours3 million to help me find, put it on
the internet and show it a few times.
It's going to completely explodethe real estate business in America.
Half the real estate brokers will quit.
That's been, in my view, kind of theview of what art advisors in Asia are,
(29:22):
kind of like their real estate broker.
They're just sort of there, help youfill out the form, take you to the
thing, and then you decide what to do.
If you think that that's what art advisorsdo, you don't have much respect for them,
and you don't pay them very well, becausethey're like your real estate broker.
Now, having done it for so long, Ithink great art advisors are way more
(29:46):
important than your real estate broker.
Besides just taking you to the openhouse, all the things that you need
them to do about quality, about history,about passion, about price, are way
more complex than an analysis of 21.
So until they recognize that we as artadvisors provide value, probably get
(30:11):
you a better price, and protect you frommaking million dollar bonehead mistakes.
That's kind of the last step fromhaving a really mature art market
where quality rises to the top.
We'll set you apart of havingthe best art collections.
The person with the best art Art advisoris gonna wind up with the best art
(30:33):
collection, not because the art advisortold them what to do, but because they
work together to get the vision of morethan a collector, but builds a collection.
Claire Huang (30:44):
I have a two words, simple answer to that question.
Collector circle.
Boliang Shen (30:49):
Yes, please visit our website, thebearfax.
com for more information about theBear Baer Faxt Collector's Circle.
And always remember, don't transactwithout the Bear Baer Faxt.
Luyang Jiang (31:01):
Thank you for listening to Bear With Me, a mini series of
the Bear Baer Faxt podcast, broughtto you by the art world's leading
source of breaking news, insiderintelligence, and art market insights.
since 1994.
Head to thebearfax.
com to learn more about the BearfaxCollectors Circle, our new members
only group for collectors who wantto learn about art and the market,
(31:26):
and make connections with othercollectors and art world experts.
Through exclusive eventsand educational content.
If you have any art world topics youwould like to hear on our show, or if you
have suggestions for guests, please sendus an email at info at the Baer Faxt.
com or DM us on Instagram.
(31:47):
I'm your host and executiveproducer Luyang Jiang.
Our content strategist is Boliang Shen.
Our associate editor is.
Well, Griffith and our editingteam is Mona productions.
Check back soon for our next episodeof bear with me as Josh and I share
our insider take on the currentstate of the global art market.
Just as I was about to board my flight to Hong Kong
on March 23rd, my phone buzzed.
It was the first anniversaryof the Baer Faxt podcast.
Exactly one year ago, during Hong KongArt Week, Josh and I launched our podcast.
It was Art Basel Hong Kong'sfirst edition after the pandemic.
For many people, it was an emotionalreunion, and for Josh and The
(00:25):
Baer Faxt, it was our first timecovering this major artwork on site.
A year has passed quickly, and wehave experienced many exciting firsts.
We went back to Hong Kong this yearas a supporting media partner of Art
Basel Hong Kong, and the live streamedFive, the Baer Faxt live interviews
on the fair's VIP opening day.
(00:46):
We were also invited by the UpperHouse Hong Kong to launch the Baer Faxt
talk series, where we introduced theBaer Faxt Collector's Circle program.
More details to come in our show.
And most importantly,our team has expanded.
Josh and I were joined in Hong Kongby our two colleagues based in Asia.
(01:07):
On our last day there, we sat down todiscuss our observations On the art
market in Hong Kong and Asia in thisepisode of bear with me, you will
hear my conversation with Josh Baer,our founder and CEO, Guo Liangsheng,
our content strategist in Shanghaiand Claire Huang, our business
development consultant in Hong Kong.
Josh Baer (01:29):
It's great to be back in Hong Kong.
I'm already an experthaving been here twice.
Luyang Jiang (01:33):
You do look more like a, you know, local here compared to a year ago.
Josh Baer (01:37):
And I will say at the fair, I have been treated to a lot
of, are you Josh Baer, which is great.
And then it's like, I love your podcast.
And that makes you
Luyang Jiang (01:46):
very happy, right?
Yes.
Josh Baer (01:47):
I'm thrilled as the, uh, non executive producer.
Luyang Jiang (01:51):
And as the executive producer, I'm always
very happy to hear that.
As we're recording today, it's actuallyFriday, and which is the day four of
the fair and opening to the public.
Should we start by asking you to givethe audience a little bit summary?
What do you see of the fair,especially now it's your second
(02:13):
edition of Hong Kong Basel?
Josh Baer (02:15):
I've been having a sort of running battle with another journalist
about the state of the art market andhow they have to understand that not
getting all these big sales results inthe first 30 minutes of a fair means
the art market is down the toilet.
And I'd like to think that Hauserand Wirth doing 30 million worth
(02:36):
of business in the first day.
It's kind of significant.
Also made me think that's probablymore art than was sold during all
of art Singapore, the whole fairput together one booth out of 250.
So there's real business here.
Luyang Jiang (02:50):
Do you have anything particular you like or
anything kind of surprises you?
I mean, I always ask this question,but nothing surprises Josh Baer.
Josh Baer (02:58):
I was surprised at how many Western galleries bring Asian
artists now, and wondering if thatwas just, um, cuddling up to an
Asian audience, but I think not.
Those are artists they work with,and I don't think you would have
seen that here a long time ago.
Claire, you live in Hong Kong.
You've been to maybe 10 yearsworth of Hong Kong fairs.
(03:21):
Do you notice that change, or isthat just something I imagine?
Claire Huang (03:25):
I would say that change is noticeable.
So, for the Western galleries, Ithink they're definitely bringing
more Asian art back to Asia.
And inside Asia, I can see that a lotof galleries Even the local Hong Kong
galleries, who used to target, showcasemore artists from China, they began
(03:46):
to present artists from the widerregion inside Asia, including Southeast
Asia, Korea and Japan, and even India.
For me, that reason might bethat they're no longer targeting
collectors from mainland China astheir, you know, main priority.
They're also targeting othercollectors inside Asia and
Luyang Jiang (04:08):
overseas.
So, Bo Liang, as a writer anda curator from mainland China,
what does this fair mean to you?
Boliang Shen (04:15):
For me, I think Art Basel Hong Kong is an exciting
platform to understand the diversityof art world in Asia, especially
for the amount of participation ofSoutheast Asian galleries, which I
don't always see other major fairs.
I think I gained a lot of insight into theissues that their artists are exploring
and the preferences of their collectorsand how they construct their artistic
(04:40):
narrative to engage with the internationalcommunity, which is quite different from
what I learned from living and workingin China and New York over the years.
Josh Baer (04:51):
I think how we define things, it's becoming more
and more important about art.
I was reminded of A friend of mine whowas in Qatar and a senior museum director
used the term post war art and the sheikahsaid, which war are you talking about?
So terms that we've come intoregular context, Southeast Asian
(05:16):
art, contemporary art, they'reactually how we define things.
are much more important than we realize.
So that's why trying to understandthe historic use of these terms
and see to what extent we shouldbe maybe seeing they bias us.
Luyang Jiang (05:33):
Let's talk about the opening hour and Josh, you
know, when the fair opened onTuesday, 12 o'clock, what happened?
Josh Baer (05:42):
Normally, I'm afraid of getting crushed in the crowd in a
stampede to get into Basel Basel where,like, VIP stands for Very Irritating
People, thinking that they deserve tobe there 30 seconds before you, and if
they don't get to that booth 20 secondsbefore you, that masterpiece that you're
paying 4 million is going to be gone.
(06:03):
That didn't happen.
It was a little bit weird.
Like whoa, what's going on?
And I've seen that at other fairs, trythat in New York, the armory show 10
years ago, you could actually go in andtalk to the dealers without thinking
there were nine people standing there andthe dealer looking over your shoulder.
But it was kind of disorienting.
It's like, what's going on?
Is no one coming?
(06:25):
And then it was It seemed to be a slowerphase in of who VIPs are, of course we're
VIPs, we're VVIPs or something like that.
So it was a different feelingand that by four or six o'clock,
There was a different group.
I'll add to that, that coming up, I'm notgoing this time, but Expo Chicago starts
(06:47):
with a professional view at 12 and theyhave a big crowd at six because people
in Hong Kong and people in Chicago, theywork, so they're not traveling here.
So local people are like, I need toput in my full day at the office.
Then I'll come at six o'clock after work.
And by the way, I'm still buying thingsand maybe million dollar things, but I
(07:07):
don't need to get there 10 seconds before,you know, Wendy from New Delhi is there to
buy the, you know, latest Rushdie Johnson.
Luyang Jiang (07:17):
Yeah, because two of us entered the fair from inside the
convention center already, sincewe're doing the Bare Baer Faxt Live.
But most of the VIP visitors asthe first group, when they came
in, there's a something differentthan previous years, right?
And the organizer had a teamto try to direct them to go
to the third floor first.
Josh Baer (07:37):
I was a little confused about first floor and third floor.
So when that happened, I spent most ofmy time on the first day like I usually
do on the ground floor thinking that'swhere the Gagosians the high end stuff is.
And I assumed that the third floorwas like younger galleries mostly.
Lower price points and maybe theywere trying to push people there.
So I was pretty surprised on daytwo when I actually went upstairs.
(07:59):
In fact, that's where Aquavela was.
That's where NAMADs were.
And it's like, wait a second.
There were heavy hitters on both floors.
And some of the younger gallerieswere on both floors too.
So I really didn't understand floor oneversus floor three, which is maybe good.
Why can't we stick a Young Galleryfrom Shanghai next to Pace Gallery?
(08:22):
Would it be better for Pace andthe Young Gallery to have a little
more and more energy rather thanPace's across from the ocean?
Luyang Jiang (08:29):
One of my personal favorites, uh, in terms of the floor
plan there, the Discovery section,which hosts a lot of Young Galleries,
As you remember, a couple of the younggatherers in the discovery section are
right next to Hauser and Davidsoner.
Josh Baer (08:43):
Well, they're in an aisle on the other side.
So generally, the way I go through a fair,I wouldn't have gone through that section.
Or I wouldn't go throughthat section to the last.
Now, there's other people, that'swhere they head right away.
So we have to remember there are manytargets, many types of collectors
looking at different price points,looking to find things they already
know about, or to discover new things.
Luyang Jiang (09:05):
Because I go to art fairs in the different regions with you,
I know you have your very fixed wayof how you want to walk around, but
particularly in Hong Kong, I do noticethat people, including the experienced
collectors, they sometimes they don'tdo the same way and then walking out.
I wonder if this is why ArtBasel Hong Kong have a different
(09:25):
concept in terms of organizing thelocations for different galleries.
It might be a good idea.
I like it personally.
And I found it's quite easy tonavigate going directly in the center.
Josh Baer (09:35):
I think, in retrospect, we've been complaining for
years about the crowds.
And if you went into Miami at 11.
05, you'd see like 200 people in theGagosian Gallery, can't even get in.
Some people bitch about that.
So this was done differently.
So I think they shoulddeserve some credit.
I will say, walking around an art fairby myself, is way different than walking
(10:01):
around an art fair with one of my clients.
I will say that is highly stressful,sweat running down my body,
and not a pleasant experience.
On the other hand, it has a muchbetter chance of getting me invoices
and making money, rather than walkingaround by myself, stress free,
not sending out hardly any bills.
(10:23):
So, also, how you're doing it mattersif you're there with a client.
If you're there with a friend, if you'rethere with a museum group, that sort
of relates to different methods, too.
Luyang Jiang (10:37):
Tune in after the break for more of our on the ground
scoop on the market and the ArtBasel Hong Kong, from gallery
sales reports to collector contact.
Don't transact without The Bare Baer Faxt.
Check out our new websiteand thebareBaer Faxt.
com to subscribe to our weekly newsletter.
Featuring OpEx from JoshBaer and key art world news.
(11:00):
And learn about our full range ofproducts and content offerings.
Claire Huang (11:08):
I have a very interesting observation and I have
interviewed many people for this.
Maybe the
Josh Baer (11:14):
judge, if it's interesting, Claire, okay.
Claire Huang (11:17):
Yeah.
So on the major booths.
They feel like there's much less visitors,but for the discovery sector that we're
talking about, they're always crowdedwith people and institutional collectors.
I'm interested to know,especially the ones
Luyang Jiang (11:35):
from museums or institutions, what
brought them there first?
Claire Huang (11:38):
I think for professionals, they already got, you know, PDFs in
advance before even the show opens.
So there's a portion of theprofessionals who indeed just go
directly to discovery sector becausemany of them got already a little bit
fatigued with all the, you know, kindof single, single portfolios that was
(12:01):
brought every year by major galleries.
This year for the Discoveries booth,they have put real effort into
preparing the artists and the program.
For example, I know Mangrove, who broughtTanjing exhibited last year during
Shanghai Art Week in Rockbound Museum,and also Tabula Rasa, who brought Li
(12:21):
Kaichong, an artist collected by M AndI do know this, There's many curators
and professionals from institutionswalking around for two days in this
discovery sector talking with artists.
Josh Baer (12:36):
If you're an art advisor, you travel all this way, 10 percent
of 8, 000 isn't going to cut it.
So you're not going to be there.
You might be there tobuy stuff for yourself.
You can do this for the last.
So as an art advisor, it's like,well, Well, let me take a look
at that Mark Bradford for threeand a half million dollars.
It's just going to be, sothat's price point sensitive.
(13:00):
Also, I think price point, as you wrote,there was a lot of action under 10, 000.
Some of it is absolutely, I can believeyou that it's like better preparation.
The curators weren't just wanderingthrough in discover, to discover,
they'd already discovered.
And now they wanted to go deeper.
So it's not a pure discovery, always.
(13:22):
But I think it's like, youalso have to see the self
interest of people at the fair.
Luyang Jiang (13:28):
We've been hearing a rating in terms of the transactions,
the deals made during the past few days.
The high end transaction compared topre COVID, it's definitely less, right?
And as Josh mentioned a couple of times,you know, including our talks yesterday,
we don't have those kind of PR releasein the first few hours and XYZ number was
(13:48):
a big dollar sign has been already made.
So what's your general view,um, the first couple of days and
then in terms of the dealmaking?
Josh Baer (13:57):
I think people came with low expectations that
were by day two were exceeded.
The expectation is there's going to bea flurry over the weekend of dealmaking.
Some of that is like you don'treally want to take that home.
Can I have 20 percent instead of 10%?
And there's less of a stigmato buy something on day four.
(14:23):
And most of the otherfairs last five years.
If you saw something on the booth on aFriday or Saturday that was available,
the assumption was, what's wrong with it?
Why does no one want it?
Whereas if you did an exhibition atyour gallery, you don't expect that
by day three, a hundred percent ofthe works in an exhibition are sold.
(14:43):
It takes weeks or a month ortwo months to sell everything.
So I think we're talking about a slowerpace, which is better for the buyer.
And as long as we do well enough,it's fine for the galleries.
Luyang Jiang (14:56):
So I remember day one, the couple of galleries we met in the
first hour, they all use the same wordwhen you ask them, how's it going?
So it's kind of mixing or confused.
Josh Baer (15:08):
Freaked out.
I don't think I used that term,but it's like I could see them
in the headlights a little bit.
Luyang Jiang (15:14):
But later after four, the second group and the
second day, when you went back.
Boliang Shen (15:18):
They were relieved.
Most of the galleries I talked withduring the second and the third day
told me that it was much slower, butthe results were not bad, including
both Chinese and the Western galleries.
I think most of them have beenparticipating in the fair for years.
But maybe for international galleriesattending the fair for the first
time or returning after several yearsof the pandemic, their situation
(15:41):
might be relatively challenging.
Josh Baer (15:43):
I was in a gallery and I was looking at something and
they had opened in the same timeI did, sort of like the mid 80s.
of New York City on the Lower EastSide and they had a painting there.
It was a good painting, it was 900, 000.
I said, when we open that wasmore than we would sell in a year.
And they said, right.
(16:04):
And then that was one paintingin one fair 30 or 40 years later.
So the definition of not bad has changed.
They've made the point that theirexpenses have gone up there.
So it's a matter of howmuch risk they've taken on.
Luyang Jiang (16:19):
Then the gallery coming from Mainland China, the
travel expense is much lower and theykeep their team relatively small.
Claire Huang (16:26):
And the logistics will cost much less.
Josh Baer (16:30):
Then Basel Basel tend to be super expensive and then the risk
is so great, so which promotes themtaking the safest shots of being the
most commercial they can be, and it'skind of a vicious cycle of losing
discovery or trying things out.
Claire Huang (16:48):
I actually have a question for Josh.
It's purely my guess, but I noticedthat maybe there's another reason
for why the, you know, high priceartworks sales are not coming back
as expected because they're bringingsome paintings that are not sold
(17:09):
in previous private sales or fairs.
I don't wanna be name calling, butI do notice three top galleries
bringing some big names and theirartworks were seen on last year's.
Uh, BA bass, also on Fri Soul.
And also later I do identifyone of them in an auction house.
(17:32):
Yeah.
Luyang Jiang (17:33):
You mean exactly the same
Claire Huang (17:35):
artworks?
Yeah, and you showed up thisyear on the first floor.
Josh Baer (17:39):
Well, I think you see over time things that were bought
in at auction or the auction houseguaranteed showing up at an art fair.
There are people who don't like to buy atauction, who like to buy from galleries.
There's also been a price correction.
So at the higher end, prices are down.
Twenty or thirty percent.
So maybe there was an aspirationalprice of five million dollars in
(18:03):
Basel and now it's priced at three.
So that can be a reboot.
There's also harder to get secondarymaterial because the market's softer.
So galleries are bringingtheir own owned inventory.
So if you didn't sell it inMiami, you might give it a
try here because you own it.
And you might try it at a different level.
(18:25):
I think there's an assumption, oh, itdidn't sell before, hence it's bad.
And people have to get over that idea too.
Some things really suckand sell right away.
And some things are reallygreat and take a while to sell.
You have to analyze them piece by piece.
You can't just follow the moneyand think you know what's going on.
Luyang Jiang (18:45):
I left Hong Kong in 2017, but lived here for six to seven years,
and comparing to back then, especiallywhen the collectors were looking at
the Western art, contemporary art,compared to their knowledge and their
demands now, I definitely see thesignificantly, you know, being matured.
And then another topic you hear peopletalk about a lot, like, if you come to
(19:10):
this region, bring the best quality ofwork from whichever you're coming from,
do you think that has been changed?
Josh Baer (19:17):
There's only one fair with great, great, great, it's at
Luyang Jiang (19:20):
Basel, Basel,
Josh Baer (19:21):
Basel, but that's my view.
Claremont, to see it from a regionalthing, is the quality been the
same, better, higher, lower overthese 10 years you've been coming?
Yeah.
Claire Huang (19:34):
I feel like it's a big question that I used to ask to myself.
I used to live in New York forseveral years and I'm very familiar
with the fairs in Europe as well.
I won't say that the quality of theartworks bringing to Asia has been
better or worse because I always noticethat, especially for Western galleries,
(19:57):
they have, um, Label or have somepre assumptions on Asia collectors.
So they bring the artworks not classifiedby quality, but you know, falls into
the category of what they think theart the Asian collectors will like.
And that might not be, you know,the best within dec cooling, but
(20:19):
will be the willing DeCooningthat they think Asias will like.
Luyang Jiang (20:24):
Stay with us in a moment to hear more about Hong Kong's role
in the international art market.
And our take on the question everyone'sasking, is Hong Kong going to be replaced
as the capital of the Asian art market?
Don't transact without the Baer Faxted.
Follow us on Instagram, YouTube, andother platforms to watch the Baer
(20:48):
Faxted live from Art Basel, Hong Kong.
Where we interviewed top insiders andthe VIP opening of the fair and our Hong
Kong edition of the Baer Faxt Talks.
A panel was leading artadvisors on the current state
and future of the art market.
It's not just about our Basel 'causewe talk about a lot, you know, the
(21:11):
ecosystem for our community here.
I want to switch the topic to alittle bit what's happening this week.
I know, especially Claire hasbeen to lots of exhibitions.
And last year, we'dmentioned the M plus opening.
And this year coming back, and there wasalso a big conference, and M plus hosted,
which I heard it's over 1000 attendees.
(21:33):
So maybe give our listeners a perspectiveof what's happening in this week.
Claire Huang (21:37):
This week, Hong Kong government also puts great efforts
and a big budget, so we have, I think,over 200 of events opening, including
the major culture summit organized bythe Hong Kong government and the West
Kowloon Cultural District, and theywere inviting professionals all over the
(21:59):
world to talk about art and the economy.
And from the individual level, I thinkall the events and gallery shows are
really doing a great job, and I heard thattheir sales are spectacular, actually.
And we're having a lot of eventsaround the city in M Parasite, and
(22:20):
Taekwoon Contemporary, and they'redoing some performance art and some
film screening that cannot be, ina way, shown in mainland China.
But we do have a lot of visitorsfrom mainland China, so Hong Kong, I
think, still holds its very specialposition in a way of documenting
(22:43):
all these important happenings.
Luyang Jiang (22:46):
Couldn't stop thinking the two questions.
One is about being international.
One is about Hong Kong's position.
I'm speaking from my own experience.
Um, you know, coming to the art fair inHong Kong, the first night when we arrived
in the airport, I saw a Disha Prada.
It was a, you know, artist based inBerlin, and then she had a whole booth at
(23:07):
Pace Gallery, which represents her now.
She's one of my favorite artists,and I have been to her studio.
And then, when you walk in the,the ground floor of the fair.
In the center is Hui GongYong's huge installation.
Currently she's having a solo exhibitionin Han Museum in Helsinki where we live.
And then I keep running togalleries from Berlin and also
Cologne where we used to live.
(23:29):
To me, this is a partof being international.
The same thing when I go to Baseland to Paris and New York and Miami.
What kind of troubles me is like whenpeople, you know, we read on the press
and people talking about like, okay,Hong Kong is less international now.
There are not many Westerners coming.
Sorry, Joshua, you mentioned that too.
But my question is like, when youtalk about being international,
(23:50):
are we too narrow minded?
Talking about just NewYorker collector coming here.
What international means, what does itmean international, you know, matters
to the people who are based in theregion when this big event happened.
Second one is about Hong Kong's position.
I have so many friendsliving in Hong Kong.
Not all of them are from Hong Kongoriginally, but All of them are telling
(24:12):
me, first of all, they're all buying art.
They all bought something this week.
They keep telling me, saying, youknow, we want Hong Kong to keep going.
And we don't like what people aretelling us Hong Kong is, it's over.
It's not over.
We love Hong Kong.
I mean, for somebody like me, live herefor six, seven years, Hong Kong still
has a special position in my heart.
(24:33):
So that's why it really bothers me whenI hear this like, okay, XYZ is going to
replace Hong Kong in terms of the art.
What are your thoughts on that?
Claire Huang (24:42):
That's a very big and sentimental question for me.
I will say that I love Hong Kong as muchas I do, but I do see the reasons are
very sound and fair for many internationalinstitutions, bankings, corporates
leaving Hong Kong and relocate toother cities in Asia, including Tokyo,
(25:03):
Singapore, or even New Delhi in India.
As for the question is.
Is X, Y, Z going to replace Hong Kong?
The question is no, but in thesame time as for the question,
what's the future of Hong Kong?
Is the tomorrow going to be better?
The question can still be, I don't know.
The future of Hong Kong is in blur.
(25:25):
In the same time, no othercity can replace Hong Kong.
Boliang Shen (25:30):
I think that when most Western galleries talking about the
potential replacement of Hong Kong, theyare actually considering choosing the
best trading place in Asia, which for themshould be both convenient and spectacular.
I remember about 10 years ago, a numberof Western mega galleries opened their
spaces in Hong Kong and in Shanghai.
But later on, other galleriesstarted to speculating whether
(25:52):
Seoul would be a better place.
Actually, this year, several Chinesegalleries told me that the market
feels much slower, but compared tothe intense buying atmosphere before
the pandemic, they now feel thatit is more rational and healthier.
But it also concerns me a bit because whenthe market here is no longer seen as a
crazy bustling spectacle, whether it willstill attract the same level of attention
(26:16):
in the future from the internationalart world, that is a question.
Claire Huang (26:21):
If we are saying international as in Hong Kong's role and
functionality in bridging the Easternand Western world or as a trading
harbor, then I can see as a bridge isnot going to work as well as in the past.
But it's not because of HongKong is not doing a great work
(26:45):
as bridging the two worlds.
It's because the externaland the bigger questions.
So the two words are dividingand are in disparity.
It's not up to Hong Kong to decidewhether it's being international or not.
Josh Baer (27:00):
Bridges have two sides.
Luyang Jiang (27:02):
Hopefully, bridge can connect and narrow
gaps between the two sides.
Now, speaking of narrowing gaps,I want to bring up another topic
that has been on my mind lately.
As you guys know, I used to workin an investment bank and have
friends and former colleaguesin the financial industry.
They're highly educated and analyticaldecision makers when it comes to
(27:24):
investment and wealth management.
I'm part of the chat group withthem, including bankers, venture
capitalists, and economists.
It's one of my favorite alumninetworks because it foster
intellectual discussion on economics,policies and financial markets.
Two weeks before my trip to Hong Kong,this group had a heated debate about
(27:47):
investing in Hong Kong real estatemarket because there was a new policy
introduced by the local government thatfavored the real estate market, which
led to a large influx of investment.
And After reading their insights,I also invited some of them to
join me at the fair in Hong Kong.
And a few of them told me about theirprevious unpleasant experiences buying
(28:08):
art, where they bought some artworkstheir friends had recommended, and
later found that either the price wasway too high, or the works were fake.
And my first reaction was, whydidn't you do your research?
Or why didn't you hire a good advisor?
I feel that there's a big gap betweentheir knowledge of investment and their
(28:29):
understanding of navigating the art world.
So my question is, how can I help thisgroup of friends and bridge that gap?
Josh Baer (28:37):
One of the biggest things that happened in real
estate in America just happened.
Now, if you follow this, where theability of people who sell real estate
to all charge 6%, which was price fixing.
was blown up by the courts and theysettled to agree not to do that.
And the notion was like, well, if I'mbuying a 50 million house, why should
(29:00):
I give that guy who spent two hours3 million to help me find, put it on
the internet and show it a few times.
It's going to completely explodethe real estate business in America.
Half the real estate brokers will quit.
That's been, in my view, kind of theview of what art advisors in Asia are,
(29:22):
kind of like their real estate broker.
They're just sort of there, help youfill out the form, take you to the
thing, and then you decide what to do.
If you think that that's what art advisorsdo, you don't have much respect for them,
and you don't pay them very well, becausethey're like your real estate broker.
Now, having done it for so long, Ithink great art advisors are way more
(29:46):
important than your real estate broker.
Besides just taking you to the openhouse, all the things that you need
them to do about quality, about history,about passion, about price, are way
more complex than an analysis of 21.
So until they recognize that we as artadvisors provide value, probably get
(30:11):
you a better price, and protect you frommaking million dollar bonehead mistakes.
That's kind of the last step fromhaving a really mature art market
where quality rises to the top.
We'll set you apart of havingthe best art collections.
The person with the best art Art advisoris gonna wind up with the best art
(30:33):
collection, not because the art advisortold them what to do, but because they
work together to get the vision of morethan a collector, but builds a collection.
Claire Huang (30:44):
I have a two words, simple answer to that question.
Collector circle.
Boliang Shen (30:49):
Yes, please visit our website, thebearfax.
com for more information about theBear Baer Faxt Collector's Circle.
And always remember, don't transactwithout the Bear Baer Faxt.
Luyang Jiang (31:01):
Thank you for listening to Bear With Me, a mini series of
the Bear Baer Faxt podcast, broughtto you by the art world's leading
source of breaking news, insiderintelligence, and art market insights.
since 1994.
Head to thebearfax.
com to learn more about the BearfaxCollectors Circle, our new members
only group for collectors who wantto learn about art and the market,
(31:26):
and make connections with othercollectors and art world experts.
Through exclusive eventsand educational content.
If you have any art world topics youwould like to hear on our show, or if you
have suggestions for guests, please sendus an email at info at the Baer Faxt.
com or DM us on Instagram.
(31:47):
I'm your host and executiveproducer Luyang Jiang.
Our content strategist is Boliang Shen.
Our associate editor is.
Well, Griffith and our editingteam is Mona productions.
Check back soon for our next episodeof bear with me as Josh and I share
our insider take on the currentstate of the global art market.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.