March 21, 2024 • 31 mins
Jussi Pylkkänen joins Josh for his first sit-down interview since leaving his role as Global President of Christie's after nearly 40 years to start his own independent advisory, Art Pylkkänen.
Jussi reveals the secret art of the auctioneer, sharing his favorite stories from his time negotiating deals and taking bids at the auctioneer's rostrum for many of the biggest record-breaking sales in recent years. Listen as he describes how he coaxed out the final bids for the $400 million sale of Leonardo Da Vinci's Salvator Mundi, and how he handled the "Banksy-like moment" when an arm fell off a Buddha statue onstage just as he opened bidding for the sculpture.
Jussi also opens up about his plans for his new business, and his predictions for the future of the auction market.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Baer (00:00):
Hello, I'm Josh Baer and welcome to the Baer Facts Podcast.
On today's episode, we're joined byPilkannon for his first sit down interview
since recently leaving his role as globalpresident of Christie's to start his
own independent advisory, Art Pilkannon.
Jussi Pylkkänen (00:25):
If you know how good the artwork is, you know when to pause.
If you know who's bidding, because they'repeople that have collected with you for
many years, you also know when to pause.
You also know how to keepthe pace of an auction going,
which is incredibly important.
I mean, if something fails, youmove on, and you move on with the
same pace as you would as if ithad sold for a world record price.
(00:46):
So sort of pace, poise andprofessional knowledge of the market
is absolutely quintessentially my view.
Josh Baer (00:58):
Join us as UC shares his plans for his new business, his thoughts
on what's next for the art market andstories from his time auctioneering
and negotiating deals for some ofthe biggest record breaking sales.
This episode is broughtto you by David's Werner.
They also have a podcast dialogues.
after this episode.
(01:21):
Now it's a few months thatyou're like a free man out of
Christie's after what was 40 years.
What's it feel like?
Jussi Pylkkänen (01:30):
It's fantastic.
I've enjoyed it hugely.
I got a number of people writing tome after I left with all sorts of
thoughts for the future recommendations.
And no, it's a, Spiritually, it'swonderful just to be able to work
on things that you personally findinteresting and important, um,
both privately and professionally.
So it's a great break.
(01:51):
I'm enjoying
Josh Baer (01:51):
it already.
So projects like individualartworks, curating shows, building
collections, working on your golf game.
Which is it now?
I think
Jussi Pylkkänen (02:00):
the one that I might not do is the golf game, um,
but the others, all of the above.
Um, I spent a good deal of timetalking to collectors that are
wanting to buy, I'll be buying overthe next couple of days here at
Christie's and Sotheby's in London.
Uh, looking forward tothe New York auctions.
Um, I've also been talking to museums whowant to loan objects for future shows.
There's the wonderful Monet show ofLondon at the Courtauld coming up at
(02:23):
the end of the year and many othermajor exhibitions that I want to make
sure that collectors lend pictures to.
I think that's a responsibilityfor anybody that's out in the art
market advising major collectors.
And then, of course, working withpeople that are putting together
major collections at the top ofthe art market, which has been my
life for the past 30 odd years.
(02:43):
And obviously there are certainindividuals I've worked with for some time
who are looking to continue to collectmajor works privately in particular.
One of the reasons that I've leftChristie's really is to look after major
collectors who've got the appetite both tobuy major works and to lend major works.
Those are two of the criticalquestions that I ask individuals
(03:03):
that want to work with me.
We're going
Josh Baer (03:05):
to do some episodes about art advisory, but sometimes I think,
in fact, the ailment you didn'tspeak about, which is the hardest
ailment, which is how to sell art.
Because in general, buying artis way easier than selling art.
Would you comment on that?
And are you thinking that I wouldtake that as an element of what you're
(03:25):
helping collectors do using your insideknowledge of how the other side functions?
Jussi Pylkkänen (03:32):
Yes, I mean, advising people to sell privately or at
auction is a key part of that, butalso the whole process of looking at
major collections and saying, look,what direction are you going in?
Uh, which objects that you bought earlyon should you be selling now in order
to improve the collection you have?
I think there are a lot of passiveowners who should really be transformed
(03:53):
into transactors to, if you like,finesse the collections that they have.
And that's an important thing to do.
It's a difficult thing to do sometimesbecause the objects that collectors
have bought in their early years areoften things that they're closest to,
but if the market's right to put thoseonto the open market or to sell them
(04:14):
privately, I think it's good practice.
And so if you like tidying upmajor collections is very much
part of what I want to do.
I
Josh Baer (04:20):
think often with advisors, one realizes after a while, I'm sure even
as you worked in a big environment withmany specialists, that there's a certain
personality type that you connect with?
Um, I know I have one.
Do you have something that you wouldsort of identify I'm really good
with and fill in the blank of that?
Jussi Pylkkänen (04:42):
In terms of people that I really feel had a great eye, who I've
worked with and continue to work with,the likes of Loic Gouzer, Uh, the likes of
Frank Giroux, the likes of Brett Gorvey.
But I'm saying,
Josh Baer (04:54):
yes, those advisors are great because they have beliefs and
they're willing to be the only oneout there and the first one out there.
Which is how I am.
And then with a client, I mean, I'mnot good with shoppers who feel like
they need to buy something every week.
I deal with a certain kind of history.
I'm good with people who know nothing.
(05:16):
I'm good with people who know a lot.
Most of the people are in between.
Is there like a category of collectorthat you feel you sort of had
that sort of chemical fit with the
Jussi Pylkkänen (05:26):
best?
Yes, it's people that are in themarket for the long term, people
that actually want to buy majorworks of art for themselves.
Obviously, if you buy the very best, thelikelihood is that those are the pictures
they're going to appreciate the most.
And that's the direction I've gone in.
Um, one of the reasons why I wasso keen to stay at Christie's
for such a long time is the last.
(05:47):
10 to 15 years has really beenabout the masterpieces market.
Um, with the help of Brett and Loic inparticular, we went to that market in
2014, I think the first major event forus was the selling of the Bacon Triptych.
And after that, we had a sequence ofsales where we were looking for very
major works of art at 50 million plus.
(06:09):
And we sold a lot of them in that period.
And it created a marketplace for us towork in, which was the greatest collectors
that owned the objects, and the newcollectors that wanted to buy them.
And that's very, very much where I want
Josh Baer (06:22):
to stay.
I'm always curious how much of yourtime, both privately now and certainly
Christie's was spent talking about theart and you talk about masterpieces and
how much has been talking about the money.
Jussi Pylkkänen (06:35):
I think when I was Christie's, a lot of my time was
spent talking about the money, uh,not just in terms of the value of
objects, but the risks, the guaranteenumbers, and what position we wanted
to take with regard to a deal.
Now that I'm free of that,it's more about the art.
And the art for me is vital.
So paying the right price fora major work of art is fine.
Um, and that's what it's abouttrying to identify opportunities to.
(06:59):
Find rare objects that simply areall in museums, with the exception
of the odd piece that you chase.
That's when you pay an exceptional price.
But, um, also being reasonableabout the acquisition number is
important to every collector.
Um, but for me, it's not theessence of what I'll be doing.
The essence of what I'll be doing isadvising people to buy nine out of tens.
(07:20):
And there aren't many of them.
So for example, in this series of sales,there are relatively few, but those
that are are worth having a go at.
Josh Baer (07:27):
Well, I often say to my clients, let's start with, do you love it?
And then we can talk about themoney because it's a waste of
time to talk about the money.
If it's not good
Jussi Pylkkänen (07:37):
enough, that's my song.
And that's the first point.
Do you like the object?
Is it something that you want to own?
And then let's talk about howmuch it might cost you to acquire
Josh Baer (07:46):
it.
And looking back years later, do you go?
Oops, maybe, you know, I told him to stopat X million and now it's worth 10 X.
And you think maybe I neverthought that that price as far
would get as high as they are.
Yes,
Jussi Pylkkänen (08:00):
I think the art market has run away in certain
areas, and I'm fortunate and happythat people didn't go that far.
There are a few exceptions where peoplewent beyond, and, um, I don't think if
those objects came back on the marketnow that they would achieve those prices.
Obviously, with the Russians dropping outof the market, with the Asians being more
quiet last year, there are certain marketsthat did drop, and quite considerably.
(08:21):
Um, but that does not meanthat they won't come back.
But similarly, there are marketshistorically that have been too hot.
Um, and I've witnessed that andhopefully the people that I've
advised didn't get caught in the.
Josh Baer (08:33):
How about your greatest triumphs and failures of telling
someone to keep going or some time tostop anything specific comes to mind?
Jussi Pylkkänen (08:42):
So on Go, uh, way back when I was looking after German
sales at Christie's in the 90s,um, I was completely convinced that
Jawlensky's market was too low, andwe had a picture of three to four
hundred thousand of Helene Jawlensky,and a very nice jewellery dealer
who I'd known for years asked me,you know, what would you recommend?
And I recommended that he should buythis picture, and he bid to nine hundred
(09:04):
thousand, three times the estimate or so.
Which is brave.
Three years later, I called him,I said, the Jawlensky market is
now hot, and he sold it for 3.
2 million.
So effectively ten times theoriginal estimate that he bid for
it, only four or five years before.
So that was an example of, maybe,the marketing power of the auction
(09:24):
houses, where when you commit to aSurrealist sale, or a German sale, or an
Italian sale, you can create interest.
But I think it was all credible,because I think Jawlensky
is a very important artist.
Um, that having been said, now theRussians are not in the market, and
Jablonsky, a great Russian painter fromtheir perspective, prices are quite
suppressed, so it'll be interestingto see how the Jablonsky does
tomorrow night at Christie's, a greatpainting as well, same, uh, league of
Josh Baer (09:48):
artwork.
And any bandwagons you got on andyou went, oops, maybe, uh, didn't
get that one quite right, eitherartistically or financially?
Jussi Pylkkänen (09:58):
Um, funnily enough, our judgments in terms of guarantees
at Christie's have been pretty spot on,particularly over the last five years.
I've seen other houses have problems.
Um, and obviously we've beenin the game for those deals.
That's in my previous life, workingas a sort of a judge of value.
I think if you look at the contemporarymarket, and I was involved hugely in that
from the last 20 years at Christie's, youknow, there are artists that have gone
(10:21):
out of favour, whose markets have dropped,that at one moment were incredibly strong.
Um, so there are a certain number ofworks by young artists early on in
their careers that I think the priceshave definitely, uh, more than halved.
And it's just a question of whether,with time, their careers will flourish
and prosper because generally earlyworks by artists tend to come back.
(10:44):
You know, if it's early Chagall orit's early Kandinsky or whatever,
their markets somehow come back.
And that must be the case also forpainters, you know, such as Freud,
Bacon, we've seen it already, buteven the younger artists today,
their early works that may now notseem to be at the same level as they
were when they were first offered onthe auction market will come back.
Josh Baer (11:04):
As a long term private advisor versus a newbie, clients love it when
you tell them, you were right, I waswrong, should have bought more of those.
They love it when you say,like, three Kusamas was enough.
And it's like, well, theythought that we should buy ten.
I don't know, three is plenty.
You go back and say, yeah, you were right.
(11:25):
It makes them feel really good.
So admitting that, like, theywere smarter than you, it's like,
I know they're not listening.
So it's a good strategy
Jussi Pylkkänen (11:33):
sometimes.
Yeah, but you go back tothe great dealers as well.
You look at somebody like BrunoBischofberger, one of the masters,
you know, and you look at his view ofWarhol and Basquiat back in the day,
I mean, he was a complete precursor.
Nobody would have believed, you know,how the markets Basquiat, would become
so central to, you know, the culturaldevelopment of the 21st century and
(11:54):
people's belief in that young man.
And similarly, you look at Bill Aquavellawhen he did the Matisse deal back in
the day, he took an enormous positionway before the auction houses did.
You know, with a great group of PM and T'sgallery pieces of Nero's Matisse's and so
forth, which, um, you know, nobody in thebroader market would have committed to.
(12:16):
So those judgments can alsoapply to dealers when you
say to them, you know what?
Right.
Cool.
And of course there are othersthat will say, I knew the
market was going to develop.
I wish I had.
You hear a lot of I wish I had,particularly in my place working
at Christie's as the president.
Will Griffith (12:33):
Join us after the break as you see uncovers the secret
art of the auctioneer, how to buildmomentum and when to slow down, like
how he coaxed out the final bidson the 450 million Da Vinci sale.
This episode of the Bare Facts podcastis brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is aboutartists and the way they think,
(12:57):
with each episode featuring aconversation with artists, writers,
filmmakers, and musicians exploringwhat it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations with artistslike Njideka Akunyili Crosby, Elizabeth
Payton, Rikrit Tiravani, and so many more.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Josh Baer (13:19):
Many people don't know you as well as an expert and specialist
and that and they know you as theface of Christie's from the rostrum
is the number one auctioneer.
Could you talk a little bit about asan auctioneer, how you would feel on
the stage and whether you believe.
And why a better auctioneer can doa better job and get a bigger price
(13:43):
if that's your role and how you do
Jussi Pylkkänen (13:45):
that.
I think the two roles that youdescribed are implicitly linked.
I think being a great expert, whichI ran the Impressions department
after all for over a decade atChristie's, is part of the secret
if you know how good the artwork is.
You know, when to pause, if you know,who's bidding, because they're people
that have collected with you for manyyears, you also know when to pause.
(14:07):
You also know how to keepthe pace of an auction going,
which is incredibly important.
I mean, if something fails, youmove on and you move on with the
same pace as you would, as if ithad sold for a world record price.
So sort of pace, poise, andprofessional knowledge of the market
is absolutely quintessentially my view.
Josh Baer (14:27):
So when something buys in, you just like, it's out of your brain,
you're able to disengage from, I knowthat consigner, it's a great, all
that, you just like, turn the page.
Jussi Pylkkänen (14:40):
A hundred percent.
I think that's probably the Finnishblood in me, sissle, or just, uh, how
would I put it, the ability to move onand do the right thing at the next step.
Interestingly, not a lot of peoplerecognize this, but the very next
lot after Leonardo da Vinci thatmade 450 million dollars was a
Basquiat at 25 million dollars,which was guaranteed by the house.
(15:00):
and fail to sell.
Josh Baer (15:03):
Most of us, when consigning, say we don't want to be
the one after the biggest lot, thatall of a sudden people are running
around and their hair is on fire.
I think
Will Griffith (15:13):
that,
Josh Baer (15:14):
in reality Would that painting have sold if it was before the da Vinci?
No,
Jussi Pylkkänen (15:18):
it was all about the picture.
So for me, putting five masterpiecesback to back is fine, as long as
the auctioneer is able to judgethe pace Settle the room and pause.
So with the Leonardo, even duringthe bidding, I paused for 60 seconds.
When we hit 220 million because thebidders need time and that's something
very interesting I've noticed about mostauctioneers is that when they've got
(15:40):
a lot of competition There were stillthree people in the bidding for that They
rush when there's a lot of competitionslow down pause give people time because
actually what they're indicating Is theirappetite to acquire and if somebody's
got the appetite to acquire It fartranscends their appetite to drop out.
If you're in a hurry, it givesthem the excuse that you're
(16:00):
hurrying, you're rushing them.
If you go slowly, you're much morelikely to A, get the top price,
but B, have everybody feeling theywere given the same opportunity to
buy the object, because once thecollector has decided that they're
in the sale room, or even privately.
Wanting to acquire an object.
You have to give people the right,appropriate amount of money.
(16:21):
Well, those people are
Josh Baer (16:23):
not used to not getting what they want.
So if you can get them to raise theirhand and say, I want it, they're
sometimes emotionally going to go crazy.
If you never got them to, they wantit, then they can be disciplined.
You know, if you're a multi billionaireand you're looking at a million dollar
object and you want it, it's kind ofmoney isn't the object at that point.
(16:46):
Right.
Jussi Pylkkänen (16:46):
Yeah, and, you know, in your lifetime, you get the one opportunity
to buy the object of your desire.
So Lawrence Graff, when he bid forthe Liechtenstein in the front row
in New York, probably 10 years agonow, I had no idea specifically
that he wanted to buy that object.
But once he started to bid, I could tellfrom his body language that he was in it.
And when he dropped out, I know Lawrencevery well, I leant forward to him
(17:09):
and I said, Lawrence, are you sure?
I paused for quite a long time.
He came back in and, having saidno, very audibly to the whole room
and, um, He bought the pictureat I think 10 million more.
And to this day, he thanksme for giving him that time.
Josh Baer (17:26):
How good are you as an auctioneer?
If you show up to do a ninth centurysilver, is there even ninth century
silver that must be, but when you'redoing a sale that you had no involvement
with and no actual knowledge, you don'tknow the clients, were you good at
Jussi Pylkkänen (17:41):
that?
I'm always more comfortable when I knowthe client base, but if I know the quality
of the art and the specialists were clearenough with me about what was going to
travel and what was going to be sold atthe reserve or near it, and also gave
me a complete description of the room.
The Robert Ellsworth sale, for example,I flew over from London to take that.
They were very keen for me to take it.
(18:01):
We broke every single recordin the book in a packed sale
room, but that was given a
Josh Baer (18:05):
huge leap.
The first Banksy like momentof a sale, as I sort of recall
Jussi Pylkkänen (18:10):
it was Banksy like moment because the very last lot of
the sale was a Buddha where the armof the Buddha actually dropped off
literally as I was going to offer it.
It was center stage.
And the arm of the Buddha, for whateverreason, hadn't been properly attached.
It was just on a little peg.
And as I started to open thebidding, the arm fell off.
And of course, everybody in theroom gasped as they watched the
arm drop onto the stage below them.
(18:33):
I just turned to the Buddhaand said, Are you bidding?
Which completely broke theatmosphere and actually made people
feel, spiritually, that maybeRobert Ellsworth was in the room.
Something was there, present amongst us.
Last lot of the sale.
Historic sale where every objecthad broken a world record.
And interestingly, the specialistswere nervous about how this ancient
(18:54):
artifact would sell, but knew thatit'd be very important to Ellsworth.
And it went on to make a world record.
It's a huge applause.
And afterwards, many of the collectorsthat had come from China were completely
with me in saying, Yep, we felt it.
Robert was in the room because he'dbeen very close to so many of those
people over so many years and being agreat supporter of that marketplace.
(19:15):
So they were very, verypleased about that.
And, uh, extraordinary moment.
Will Griffith (19:21):
Stay with us for our final segment as UC reveals his plans
for his new business and his predictionsfor the future of the auction market.
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcastis brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is aboutartists and the way they think,
with each episode featuring aconversation with artists, writers,
(19:43):
filmmakers, and musicians exploringwhat it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations with creatorsfrom Luca Guadagnino, to Sofia Coppola,
to Hilton Als, and so many more.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Josh Baer (20:00):
Do you think it's good for the consignors to be out of the room
when you're auctioning something?
Can you feel a vibe of people lookingat the seller going, I don't like you, I
don't, or that something there about theperson who's selling being in the room?
I tell my clients, go out todinner, I'll tell you what happened.
Some of them like to be inthe room when it happens.
(20:22):
I
Jussi Pylkkänen (20:22):
prefer them in the room.
I prefer them in the room.
Because?
So, a couple of instances, I sold aMunch print for a world record price
when I was in the print departmentyears ago, and I said to the clients,
Norwegians, please come to the room.
They stood at the back of the room.
And when we sold the object for them, fora world record, it was a world record for
any modern print at the time, hand coloredscreen, um, they rose in unison, cheering.
(20:46):
Which made me feel great.
They bought a house with the proceeds,which they then revealed to me.
They invited me to the housewarmingwhen they bought it, which was
a remarkable moment for them.
Um, I look back at the Paul Allen sale,Paul Allen's sister was in the skybox.
And afterwards it was a fantastic moment.
Can you hear
Josh Baer (21:05):
skybox?
Jussi Pylkkänen (21:07):
I know where they are always.
Yeah, I used to anyway.
And, uh, there are many instances of that.
You remember.
Uh, the two Warhols, the, uh, Marlonand the Elvises when that was sold.
Do you remember the bangingon the window of the Skybox
in celebration of the prices?
And that spurs you on.
You feel good about it.
I mean, I, I have to say that Ialways felt that I was But there's
Josh Baer (21:29):
some, there's some guys that people don't like.
And they're mostlyfinance guys, sorry bros.
And there's like a sense of like,I don't want him to make money.
And like, competition, never hadthat feeling, somebody in the room.
Jussi Pylkkänen (21:43):
You Uh, no, I didn't actually.
I, well, listen, from myperspective, I was working on
behalf of the person in the room.
So, having them in the room mademe feel good that they were there
to witness how well things went.
Josh Baer (21:54):
So, that's an interesting question.
Are you working, then, for the buyer?
Are you working for the seller?
Or are you working for the auction house?
And is it very tough to be fiduciaryto all three at the same time?
It's a balance,
Jussi Pylkkänen (22:08):
but at the end of the day, I'm working for the seller.
As an auctioneer, I'm alwaysselling for them personally.
And also as you referee the dynamicof the auction room, your role is
to get the highest price from thebuyers in the room in a fair way.
Well,
Josh Baer (22:22):
probably the greatest investments were from people
paying record prices at the time.
Undoubtedly.
And if you're trying to save10 or 20 percent, those are
probably the worst investments.
And do you think art's even investable?
Do you think in those terms?
Jussi Pylkkänen (22:38):
I do.
I think art is investable.
I think particularly today,it's a proper asset class.
When I began working at Christie's inthe 80s, it was a very narrow market,
which led to when the Japanese pulledout, A terrible art depression in the
art market in the early 90s, 90 to 92.
The next time you saw it was in 2000.
Probably not
Josh Baer (22:56):
a good time to have expanded and built a big new gallery
space 7, 500 square feet in 1990.
Maybe timing is a critical component.
That's just the side.
It was a foresight, John.
Jussi Pylkkänen (23:07):
Yes, it was a foresight.
And the market was a billion dollars.
Yes.
For Christie's, it's six, eightbillion dollars if, uh, the
markets are in a good place.
So I don't know.
Uh, foresight is a, is a wonderful thing.
Or hindsight as well.
Josh Baer (23:20):
Hindsight is
Jussi Pylkkänen (23:20):
20 20.
But then looking at it, uh, after that,just in terms of where the market has
gone, if you think about it, uh, themarket has been incredibly consistent
over the last 25 years, even lookingat the 2008, 2009, 2008 depression was
fixed by Yves Saint Laurent with one hit.
Suddenly confidence came back.
So confidence game.
(23:41):
And the
one
Josh Baer (23:41):
Warhol selling for 44 million.
100%.
On an 8 million estimate,somebody having the guts.
We're in London and came from Londonto put it out there with that risk
and see that the market said, uh,we still have appetite for art.
That was kind of the key moment on top ofthe Saint Laurent, which was winter 2009.
(24:06):
That's
Jussi Pylkkänen (24:06):
it.
Well, it was interesting because theowner of that picture was somebody
that wasn't very close to the market.
And when I.
I went to see them a few yearslater, I thanked them, and he
said to me, What do you mean?
I said, You're the man that kept themarket in the right place with the
sale of that object for post war art.
And he couldn't believe it.
He's passed away now, but he Reminded meof that many times in the future saying
(24:27):
you really meant that 100 percent so it'sfantastic that you should mention it I've
Josh Baer (24:31):
actually predicted another bull market And which is an odd thing
to do when everybody's sort of worryingthat the sky is falling and they've
overreacted to a price correction I'msaying And I wonder if you agree that
there is another bull market comingIn my view, it's not about price.
It's about volume and that the marketcould grow five or 10 times bigger with
(24:56):
a number of people with ultra high networth who've yet to buy are still yet to
Jussi Pylkkänen (25:01):
come.
I agree on several of those points.
First of all, I love the fact thatyou don't call it a Josh Bear Market.
Uh, you can't call ita bear market, can you?
Because that would be appropriation.
But the reason that the market is goingto hold itself up is that we're working
in a fully global environment whereyou've got buyers from every corner
of the world interested in buyingobjects that are culturally important.
(25:24):
If the vendors are willing topart with major objects, the
market will hold its price.
If it's about volume, I think there'senough appetite to cover the volume.
The interesting question is, willthe top objects that are available be
offered on the open market and willthe vendors have the confidence to put
(25:48):
50 million plus objects on the market?
I suspect that in thenext couple of years.
It's less likely, and reading whatGuillaume Chiarutti put out from
Christie's recently about the appetiteof the auction houses to be more
involved in private sales, it'sprobable that some of those major lots
won't come onto the auction market,they'll be transacted privately.
So you might find that there's a littlebit of a hesitation around the, let's say
(26:12):
the 20 million plus object, and that oneneeds to see how confident people are to
go after those in the public environment.
Josh Baer (26:20):
Well, I agree.
We tend to make it that the only realmarket is the auction market and the
public part of the auction market, andwe all, on the inside, know that we
don't want that to be so transparent,and as to what's really going on,
you can't just automatically assumethat that's completely, scotastically
(26:42):
independent of things, and with thespreads that the auction houses might
be taking, Particularly at the lowerlevels and the willingness to take the
risk of selling major objects withoutguarantees is going to be diminished.
That's clear for nowthat I think it's true.
(27:02):
We don't really know what's goingon at Aquavela behind closed doors.
Maybe he made 10 sales of250 million last month.
Could be.
And, and, et cetera, et cetera.
Jussi Pylkkänen (27:16):
I mean, these are all people that are handling very major
Josh Baer (27:19):
objects.
So now you're in position to sort of sumup to be part of those deals as well.
So how do you describe your new business?
Jussi Pylkkänen (27:31):
Listen, the next five years are going to be interesting for me.
I'm going to be buying works of artat the top of the market for a handful
of people that want to work with me.
Um, that'll be institutions as well.
I'd like to auctioneer, watchersspace, perhaps 2025, 2026.
Um, if any of the major collectorswant me to sell on their behalves,
I'd be delighted to do so.
(27:52):
I want to break from it now.
And really, it's giving good advice and,uh, working with the institutions as
well as they organize their exhibitions.
I've probably got quite a good insightinto where major objects are that
haven't been seen for many, many years.
And I'd be delighted to make sure thepublic has the opportunity to see them.
Josh Baer (28:11):
Auctioneers are a bit of rock stars these days.
How did you feel as this sort of,like, movie star on the stage?
Did you like it?
Not
Jussi Pylkkänen (28:19):
a great deal, actually.
I've got to be honest with you.
I enjoyed the process of taking thesales, but being in the sort of public
eye all the time is a bit odd whenyou're approached at airports and
things like that to chat to peoplethat you've never met before about
the art world and all the rest of it.
But what I did enjoy was, So if youlook at Sam Mendes, for example,
(28:41):
great, great theater director.
There's something about being able tocome into a sale room, direct the process.
You've got the actors, you'vegot the script to some degree.
But the way that you conductthe sale is unique to yourself.
And I think that.
A great director can bring 20, 25percent to any roles, even to Hamlet
(29:04):
or to Macbeth, even the classics.
And I think a great auctioneercan probably do the same.
Josh Baer (29:09):
I used to get a kick because Every so often, I'd be standing there
reporting on, you know, underbidderMugabe and standing with the press and
you'd look over and ask me if I wasbidding and I remember one night I was
standing there and actually I was biddingand you were like not paying attention.
I'm like waving my arms.
It's like, yes, we want that.
(29:29):
And you're like, you know, the one timeyou're not looking and taking my bid was
when I was actually bidding in that saleand we didn't announce before the sale.
Jussi Pylkkänen (29:37):
I sold it to you though, eventually.
Yeah.
I'd
Josh Baer (29:40):
be persuaded.
Yes, and all that, and like,because they didn't tell you,
usually you know who's going to bid.
My client called me during the saleto say, I want to buy this thing, and
it's like, I'm scurrying around afterthe auction started, and I'm standing
there like, waving a paddle even.
And you're like, we'll get around.
In fact, we were the only bidder.
You were.
Yeah.
And you would guarantee thatI saved the house on that.
(30:02):
There was a guarantee on that.
So, but you would have fun upthere and you often made fun of me.
You're
Jussi Pylkkänen (30:08):
my best spotter.
Every now and again, you give me a spot.
Particularly in London,actually, you were fantastic.
Because it's a little bit more, um,random as to where people sit and why.
And, uh, when you gave me thenod, I'd, uh, execute for you.
Perfect.
Josh Baer (30:24):
So I'll miss that, with you being gone, but maybe you'll be back.
Jussi Pylkkänen (30:28):
No, I will be back.
Kito.
Kito spalia.
Kito spalia.
And remember, do not transactwithout the Bear Facts.
Will Griffith (30:40):
We'd like to give a big thank you to UC for joining us for
this episode of the Bear Facts podcast,brought to you by David Zwirner.
Our host is Josh Baer.
Our executive producer is Luyang Zhang.
Our content strategist is Bo Liang Shin.
I'm Will Griffith, our associate editor,and our editing team is Mona Productions.
(31:01):
Subscribe today wherever you get yourpodcasts, and check back soon for future
episodes as we unpack the inner workingsof the global art industry through
exclusive, candid interviews with keyplayers in the business as they offer
their perspectives on art and the marketin the US, Europe, Asia, and beyond.
Hello, I'm Josh Baer and welcome to the Baer Facts Podcast.
On today's episode, we're joined byPilkannon for his first sit down interview
since recently leaving his role as globalpresident of Christie's to start his
own independent advisory, Art Pilkannon.
Jussi Pylkkänen (00:25):
If you know how good the artwork is, you know when to pause.
If you know who's bidding, because they'repeople that have collected with you for
many years, you also know when to pause.
You also know how to keepthe pace of an auction going,
which is incredibly important.
I mean, if something fails, youmove on, and you move on with the
same pace as you would as if ithad sold for a world record price.
(00:46):
So sort of pace, poise andprofessional knowledge of the market
is absolutely quintessentially my view.
Josh Baer (00:58):
Join us as UC shares his plans for his new business, his thoughts
on what's next for the art market andstories from his time auctioneering
and negotiating deals for some ofthe biggest record breaking sales.
This episode is broughtto you by David's Werner.
They also have a podcast dialogues.
after this episode.
(01:21):
Now it's a few months thatyou're like a free man out of
Christie's after what was 40 years.
What's it feel like?
Jussi Pylkkänen (01:30):
It's fantastic.
I've enjoyed it hugely.
I got a number of people writing tome after I left with all sorts of
thoughts for the future recommendations.
And no, it's a, Spiritually, it'swonderful just to be able to work
on things that you personally findinteresting and important, um,
both privately and professionally.
So it's a great break.
(01:51):
I'm enjoying
Josh Baer (01:51):
it already.
So projects like individualartworks, curating shows, building
collections, working on your golf game.
Which is it now?
I think
Jussi Pylkkänen (02:00):
the one that I might not do is the golf game, um,
but the others, all of the above.
Um, I spent a good deal of timetalking to collectors that are
wanting to buy, I'll be buying overthe next couple of days here at
Christie's and Sotheby's in London.
Uh, looking forward tothe New York auctions.
Um, I've also been talking to museums whowant to loan objects for future shows.
There's the wonderful Monet show ofLondon at the Courtauld coming up at
(02:23):
the end of the year and many othermajor exhibitions that I want to make
sure that collectors lend pictures to.
I think that's a responsibilityfor anybody that's out in the art
market advising major collectors.
And then, of course, working withpeople that are putting together
major collections at the top ofthe art market, which has been my
life for the past 30 odd years.
(02:43):
And obviously there are certainindividuals I've worked with for some time
who are looking to continue to collectmajor works privately in particular.
One of the reasons that I've leftChristie's really is to look after major
collectors who've got the appetite both tobuy major works and to lend major works.
Those are two of the criticalquestions that I ask individuals
(03:03):
that want to work with me.
We're going
Josh Baer (03:05):
to do some episodes about art advisory, but sometimes I think,
in fact, the ailment you didn'tspeak about, which is the hardest
ailment, which is how to sell art.
Because in general, buying artis way easier than selling art.
Would you comment on that?
And are you thinking that I wouldtake that as an element of what you're
(03:25):
helping collectors do using your insideknowledge of how the other side functions?
Jussi Pylkkänen (03:32):
Yes, I mean, advising people to sell privately or at
auction is a key part of that, butalso the whole process of looking at
major collections and saying, look,what direction are you going in?
Uh, which objects that you bought earlyon should you be selling now in order
to improve the collection you have?
I think there are a lot of passiveowners who should really be transformed
(03:53):
into transactors to, if you like,finesse the collections that they have.
And that's an important thing to do.
It's a difficult thing to do sometimesbecause the objects that collectors
have bought in their early years areoften things that they're closest to,
but if the market's right to put thoseonto the open market or to sell them
(04:14):
privately, I think it's good practice.
And so if you like tidying upmajor collections is very much
part of what I want to do.
I
Josh Baer (04:20):
think often with advisors, one realizes after a while, I'm sure even
as you worked in a big environment withmany specialists, that there's a certain
personality type that you connect with?
Um, I know I have one.
Do you have something that you wouldsort of identify I'm really good
with and fill in the blank of that?
Jussi Pylkkänen (04:42):
In terms of people that I really feel had a great eye, who I've
worked with and continue to work with,the likes of Loic Gouzer, Uh, the likes of
Frank Giroux, the likes of Brett Gorvey.
But I'm saying,
Josh Baer (04:54):
yes, those advisors are great because they have beliefs and
they're willing to be the only oneout there and the first one out there.
Which is how I am.
And then with a client, I mean, I'mnot good with shoppers who feel like
they need to buy something every week.
I deal with a certain kind of history.
I'm good with people who know nothing.
(05:16):
I'm good with people who know a lot.
Most of the people are in between.
Is there like a category of collectorthat you feel you sort of had
that sort of chemical fit with the
Jussi Pylkkänen (05:26):
best?
Yes, it's people that are in themarket for the long term, people
that actually want to buy majorworks of art for themselves.
Obviously, if you buy the very best, thelikelihood is that those are the pictures
they're going to appreciate the most.
And that's the direction I've gone in.
Um, one of the reasons why I wasso keen to stay at Christie's
for such a long time is the last.
(05:47):
10 to 15 years has really beenabout the masterpieces market.
Um, with the help of Brett and Loic inparticular, we went to that market in
2014, I think the first major event forus was the selling of the Bacon Triptych.
And after that, we had a sequence ofsales where we were looking for very
major works of art at 50 million plus.
(06:09):
And we sold a lot of them in that period.
And it created a marketplace for us towork in, which was the greatest collectors
that owned the objects, and the newcollectors that wanted to buy them.
And that's very, very much where I want
Josh Baer (06:22):
to stay.
I'm always curious how much of yourtime, both privately now and certainly
Christie's was spent talking about theart and you talk about masterpieces and
how much has been talking about the money.
Jussi Pylkkänen (06:35):
I think when I was Christie's, a lot of my time was
spent talking about the money, uh,not just in terms of the value of
objects, but the risks, the guaranteenumbers, and what position we wanted
to take with regard to a deal.
Now that I'm free of that,it's more about the art.
And the art for me is vital.
So paying the right price fora major work of art is fine.
Um, and that's what it's abouttrying to identify opportunities to.
(06:59):
Find rare objects that simply areall in museums, with the exception
of the odd piece that you chase.
That's when you pay an exceptional price.
But, um, also being reasonableabout the acquisition number is
important to every collector.
Um, but for me, it's not theessence of what I'll be doing.
The essence of what I'll be doing isadvising people to buy nine out of tens.
(07:20):
And there aren't many of them.
So for example, in this series of sales,there are relatively few, but those
that are are worth having a go at.
Josh Baer (07:27):
Well, I often say to my clients, let's start with, do you love it?
And then we can talk about themoney because it's a waste of
time to talk about the money.
If it's not good
Jussi Pylkkänen (07:37):
enough, that's my song.
And that's the first point.
Do you like the object?
Is it something that you want to own?
And then let's talk about howmuch it might cost you to acquire
Josh Baer (07:46):
it.
And looking back years later, do you go?
Oops, maybe, you know, I told him to stopat X million and now it's worth 10 X.
And you think maybe I neverthought that that price as far
would get as high as they are.
Yes,
Jussi Pylkkänen (08:00):
I think the art market has run away in certain
areas, and I'm fortunate and happythat people didn't go that far.
There are a few exceptions where peoplewent beyond, and, um, I don't think if
those objects came back on the marketnow that they would achieve those prices.
Obviously, with the Russians dropping outof the market, with the Asians being more
quiet last year, there are certain marketsthat did drop, and quite considerably.
(08:21):
Um, but that does not meanthat they won't come back.
But similarly, there are marketshistorically that have been too hot.
Um, and I've witnessed that andhopefully the people that I've
advised didn't get caught in the.
Josh Baer (08:33):
How about your greatest triumphs and failures of telling
someone to keep going or some time tostop anything specific comes to mind?
Jussi Pylkkänen (08:42):
So on Go, uh, way back when I was looking after German
sales at Christie's in the 90s,um, I was completely convinced that
Jawlensky's market was too low, andwe had a picture of three to four
hundred thousand of Helene Jawlensky,and a very nice jewellery dealer
who I'd known for years asked me,you know, what would you recommend?
And I recommended that he should buythis picture, and he bid to nine hundred
(09:04):
thousand, three times the estimate or so.
Which is brave.
Three years later, I called him,I said, the Jawlensky market is
now hot, and he sold it for 3.
2 million.
So effectively ten times theoriginal estimate that he bid for
it, only four or five years before.
So that was an example of, maybe,the marketing power of the auction
(09:24):
houses, where when you commit to aSurrealist sale, or a German sale, or an
Italian sale, you can create interest.
But I think it was all credible,because I think Jawlensky
is a very important artist.
Um, that having been said, now theRussians are not in the market, and
Jablonsky, a great Russian painter fromtheir perspective, prices are quite
suppressed, so it'll be interestingto see how the Jablonsky does
tomorrow night at Christie's, a greatpainting as well, same, uh, league of
Josh Baer (09:48):
artwork.
And any bandwagons you got on andyou went, oops, maybe, uh, didn't
get that one quite right, eitherartistically or financially?
Jussi Pylkkänen (09:58):
Um, funnily enough, our judgments in terms of guarantees
at Christie's have been pretty spot on,particularly over the last five years.
I've seen other houses have problems.
Um, and obviously we've beenin the game for those deals.
That's in my previous life, workingas a sort of a judge of value.
I think if you look at the contemporarymarket, and I was involved hugely in that
from the last 20 years at Christie's, youknow, there are artists that have gone
(10:21):
out of favour, whose markets have dropped,that at one moment were incredibly strong.
Um, so there are a certain number ofworks by young artists early on in
their careers that I think the priceshave definitely, uh, more than halved.
And it's just a question of whether,with time, their careers will flourish
and prosper because generally earlyworks by artists tend to come back.
(10:44):
You know, if it's early Chagall orit's early Kandinsky or whatever,
their markets somehow come back.
And that must be the case also forpainters, you know, such as Freud,
Bacon, we've seen it already, buteven the younger artists today,
their early works that may now notseem to be at the same level as they
were when they were first offered onthe auction market will come back.
Josh Baer (11:04):
As a long term private advisor versus a newbie, clients love it when
you tell them, you were right, I waswrong, should have bought more of those.
They love it when you say,like, three Kusamas was enough.
And it's like, well, theythought that we should buy ten.
I don't know, three is plenty.
You go back and say, yeah, you were right.
(11:25):
It makes them feel really good.
So admitting that, like, theywere smarter than you, it's like,
I know they're not listening.
So it's a good strategy
Jussi Pylkkänen (11:33):
sometimes.
Yeah, but you go back tothe great dealers as well.
You look at somebody like BrunoBischofberger, one of the masters,
you know, and you look at his view ofWarhol and Basquiat back in the day,
I mean, he was a complete precursor.
Nobody would have believed, you know,how the markets Basquiat, would become
so central to, you know, the culturaldevelopment of the 21st century and
(11:54):
people's belief in that young man.
And similarly, you look at Bill Aquavellawhen he did the Matisse deal back in
the day, he took an enormous positionway before the auction houses did.
You know, with a great group of PM and T'sgallery pieces of Nero's Matisse's and so
forth, which, um, you know, nobody in thebroader market would have committed to.
(12:16):
So those judgments can alsoapply to dealers when you
say to them, you know what?
Right.
Cool.
And of course there are othersthat will say, I knew the
market was going to develop.
I wish I had.
You hear a lot of I wish I had,particularly in my place working
at Christie's as the president.
Will Griffith (12:33):
Join us after the break as you see uncovers the secret
art of the auctioneer, how to buildmomentum and when to slow down, like
how he coaxed out the final bidson the 450 million Da Vinci sale.
This episode of the Bare Facts podcastis brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is aboutartists and the way they think,
(12:57):
with each episode featuring aconversation with artists, writers,
filmmakers, and musicians exploringwhat it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations with artistslike Njideka Akunyili Crosby, Elizabeth
Payton, Rikrit Tiravani, and so many more.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Josh Baer (13:19):
Many people don't know you as well as an expert and specialist
and that and they know you as theface of Christie's from the rostrum
is the number one auctioneer.
Could you talk a little bit about asan auctioneer, how you would feel on
the stage and whether you believe.
And why a better auctioneer can doa better job and get a bigger price
(13:43):
if that's your role and how you do
Jussi Pylkkänen (13:45):
that.
I think the two roles that youdescribed are implicitly linked.
I think being a great expert, whichI ran the Impressions department
after all for over a decade atChristie's, is part of the secret
if you know how good the artwork is.
You know, when to pause, if you know,who's bidding, because they're people
that have collected with you for manyyears, you also know when to pause.
(14:07):
You also know how to keepthe pace of an auction going,
which is incredibly important.
I mean, if something fails, youmove on and you move on with the
same pace as you would, as if ithad sold for a world record price.
So sort of pace, poise, andprofessional knowledge of the market
is absolutely quintessentially my view.
Josh Baer (14:27):
So when something buys in, you just like, it's out of your brain,
you're able to disengage from, I knowthat consigner, it's a great, all
that, you just like, turn the page.
Jussi Pylkkänen (14:40):
A hundred percent.
I think that's probably the Finnishblood in me, sissle, or just, uh, how
would I put it, the ability to move onand do the right thing at the next step.
Interestingly, not a lot of peoplerecognize this, but the very next
lot after Leonardo da Vinci thatmade 450 million dollars was a
Basquiat at 25 million dollars,which was guaranteed by the house.
(15:00):
and fail to sell.
Josh Baer (15:03):
Most of us, when consigning, say we don't want to be
the one after the biggest lot, thatall of a sudden people are running
around and their hair is on fire.
I think
Will Griffith (15:13):
that,
Josh Baer (15:14):
in reality Would that painting have sold if it was before the da Vinci?
No,
Jussi Pylkkänen (15:18):
it was all about the picture.
So for me, putting five masterpiecesback to back is fine, as long as
the auctioneer is able to judgethe pace Settle the room and pause.
So with the Leonardo, even duringthe bidding, I paused for 60 seconds.
When we hit 220 million because thebidders need time and that's something
very interesting I've noticed about mostauctioneers is that when they've got
(15:40):
a lot of competition There were stillthree people in the bidding for that They
rush when there's a lot of competitionslow down pause give people time because
actually what they're indicating Is theirappetite to acquire and if somebody's
got the appetite to acquire It fartranscends their appetite to drop out.
If you're in a hurry, it givesthem the excuse that you're
(16:00):
hurrying, you're rushing them.
If you go slowly, you're much morelikely to A, get the top price,
but B, have everybody feeling theywere given the same opportunity to
buy the object, because once thecollector has decided that they're
in the sale room, or even privately.
Wanting to acquire an object.
You have to give people the right,appropriate amount of money.
(16:21):
Well, those people are
Josh Baer (16:23):
not used to not getting what they want.
So if you can get them to raise theirhand and say, I want it, they're
sometimes emotionally going to go crazy.
If you never got them to, they wantit, then they can be disciplined.
You know, if you're a multi billionaireand you're looking at a million dollar
object and you want it, it's kind ofmoney isn't the object at that point.
(16:46):
Right.
Jussi Pylkkänen (16:46):
Yeah, and, you know, in your lifetime, you get the one opportunity
to buy the object of your desire.
So Lawrence Graff, when he bid forthe Liechtenstein in the front row
in New York, probably 10 years agonow, I had no idea specifically
that he wanted to buy that object.
But once he started to bid, I could tellfrom his body language that he was in it.
And when he dropped out, I know Lawrencevery well, I leant forward to him
(17:09):
and I said, Lawrence, are you sure?
I paused for quite a long time.
He came back in and, having saidno, very audibly to the whole room
and, um, He bought the pictureat I think 10 million more.
And to this day, he thanksme for giving him that time.
Josh Baer (17:26):
How good are you as an auctioneer?
If you show up to do a ninth centurysilver, is there even ninth century
silver that must be, but when you'redoing a sale that you had no involvement
with and no actual knowledge, you don'tknow the clients, were you good at
Jussi Pylkkänen (17:41):
that?
I'm always more comfortable when I knowthe client base, but if I know the quality
of the art and the specialists were clearenough with me about what was going to
travel and what was going to be sold atthe reserve or near it, and also gave
me a complete description of the room.
The Robert Ellsworth sale, for example,I flew over from London to take that.
They were very keen for me to take it.
(18:01):
We broke every single recordin the book in a packed sale
room, but that was given a
Josh Baer (18:05):
huge leap.
The first Banksy like momentof a sale, as I sort of recall
Jussi Pylkkänen (18:10):
it was Banksy like moment because the very last lot of
the sale was a Buddha where the armof the Buddha actually dropped off
literally as I was going to offer it.
It was center stage.
And the arm of the Buddha, for whateverreason, hadn't been properly attached.
It was just on a little peg.
And as I started to open thebidding, the arm fell off.
And of course, everybody in theroom gasped as they watched the
arm drop onto the stage below them.
(18:33):
I just turned to the Buddhaand said, Are you bidding?
Which completely broke theatmosphere and actually made people
feel, spiritually, that maybeRobert Ellsworth was in the room.
Something was there, present amongst us.
Last lot of the sale.
Historic sale where every objecthad broken a world record.
And interestingly, the specialistswere nervous about how this ancient
(18:54):
artifact would sell, but knew thatit'd be very important to Ellsworth.
And it went on to make a world record.
It's a huge applause.
And afterwards, many of the collectorsthat had come from China were completely
with me in saying, Yep, we felt it.
Robert was in the room because he'dbeen very close to so many of those
people over so many years and being agreat supporter of that marketplace.
(19:15):
So they were very, verypleased about that.
And, uh, extraordinary moment.
Will Griffith (19:21):
Stay with us for our final segment as UC reveals his plans
for his new business and his predictionsfor the future of the auction market.
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcastis brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is aboutartists and the way they think,
with each episode featuring aconversation with artists, writers,
(19:43):
filmmakers, and musicians exploringwhat it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations with creatorsfrom Luca Guadagnino, to Sofia Coppola,
to Hilton Als, and so many more.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Josh Baer (20:00):
Do you think it's good for the consignors to be out of the room
when you're auctioning something?
Can you feel a vibe of people lookingat the seller going, I don't like you, I
don't, or that something there about theperson who's selling being in the room?
I tell my clients, go out todinner, I'll tell you what happened.
Some of them like to be inthe room when it happens.
(20:22):
I
Jussi Pylkkänen (20:22):
prefer them in the room.
I prefer them in the room.
Because?
So, a couple of instances, I sold aMunch print for a world record price
when I was in the print departmentyears ago, and I said to the clients,
Norwegians, please come to the room.
They stood at the back of the room.
And when we sold the object for them, fora world record, it was a world record for
any modern print at the time, hand coloredscreen, um, they rose in unison, cheering.
(20:46):
Which made me feel great.
They bought a house with the proceeds,which they then revealed to me.
They invited me to the housewarmingwhen they bought it, which was
a remarkable moment for them.
Um, I look back at the Paul Allen sale,Paul Allen's sister was in the skybox.
And afterwards it was a fantastic moment.
Can you hear
Josh Baer (21:05):
skybox?
Jussi Pylkkänen (21:07):
I know where they are always.
Yeah, I used to anyway.
And, uh, there are many instances of that.
You remember.
Uh, the two Warhols, the, uh, Marlonand the Elvises when that was sold.
Do you remember the bangingon the window of the Skybox
in celebration of the prices?
And that spurs you on.
You feel good about it.
I mean, I, I have to say that Ialways felt that I was But there's
Josh Baer (21:29):
some, there's some guys that people don't like.
And they're mostlyfinance guys, sorry bros.
And there's like a sense of like,I don't want him to make money.
And like, competition, never hadthat feeling, somebody in the room.
Jussi Pylkkänen (21:43):
You Uh, no, I didn't actually.
I, well, listen, from myperspective, I was working on
behalf of the person in the room.
So, having them in the room mademe feel good that they were there
to witness how well things went.
Josh Baer (21:54):
So, that's an interesting question.
Are you working, then, for the buyer?
Are you working for the seller?
Or are you working for the auction house?
And is it very tough to be fiduciaryto all three at the same time?
It's a balance,
Jussi Pylkkänen (22:08):
but at the end of the day, I'm working for the seller.
As an auctioneer, I'm alwaysselling for them personally.
And also as you referee the dynamicof the auction room, your role is
to get the highest price from thebuyers in the room in a fair way.
Well,
Josh Baer (22:22):
probably the greatest investments were from people
paying record prices at the time.
Undoubtedly.
And if you're trying to save10 or 20 percent, those are
probably the worst investments.
And do you think art's even investable?
Do you think in those terms?
Jussi Pylkkänen (22:38):
I do.
I think art is investable.
I think particularly today,it's a proper asset class.
When I began working at Christie's inthe 80s, it was a very narrow market,
which led to when the Japanese pulledout, A terrible art depression in the
art market in the early 90s, 90 to 92.
The next time you saw it was in 2000.
Probably not
Josh Baer (22:56):
a good time to have expanded and built a big new gallery
space 7, 500 square feet in 1990.
Maybe timing is a critical component.
That's just the side.
It was a foresight, John.
Jussi Pylkkänen (23:07):
Yes, it was a foresight.
And the market was a billion dollars.
Yes.
For Christie's, it's six, eightbillion dollars if, uh, the
markets are in a good place.
So I don't know.
Uh, foresight is a, is a wonderful thing.
Or hindsight as well.
Josh Baer (23:20):
Hindsight is
Jussi Pylkkänen (23:20):
20 20.
But then looking at it, uh, after that,just in terms of where the market has
gone, if you think about it, uh, themarket has been incredibly consistent
over the last 25 years, even lookingat the 2008, 2009, 2008 depression was
fixed by Yves Saint Laurent with one hit.
Suddenly confidence came back.
So confidence game.
(23:41):
And the
one
Josh Baer (23:41):
Warhol selling for 44 million.
100%.
On an 8 million estimate,somebody having the guts.
We're in London and came from Londonto put it out there with that risk
and see that the market said, uh,we still have appetite for art.
That was kind of the key moment on top ofthe Saint Laurent, which was winter 2009.
(24:06):
That's
Jussi Pylkkänen (24:06):
it.
Well, it was interesting because theowner of that picture was somebody
that wasn't very close to the market.
And when I.
I went to see them a few yearslater, I thanked them, and he
said to me, What do you mean?
I said, You're the man that kept themarket in the right place with the
sale of that object for post war art.
And he couldn't believe it.
He's passed away now, but he Reminded meof that many times in the future saying
(24:27):
you really meant that 100 percent so it'sfantastic that you should mention it I've
Josh Baer (24:31):
actually predicted another bull market And which is an odd thing
to do when everybody's sort of worryingthat the sky is falling and they've
overreacted to a price correction I'msaying And I wonder if you agree that
there is another bull market comingIn my view, it's not about price.
It's about volume and that the marketcould grow five or 10 times bigger with
(24:56):
a number of people with ultra high networth who've yet to buy are still yet to
Jussi Pylkkänen (25:01):
come.
I agree on several of those points.
First of all, I love the fact thatyou don't call it a Josh Bear Market.
Uh, you can't call ita bear market, can you?
Because that would be appropriation.
But the reason that the market is goingto hold itself up is that we're working
in a fully global environment whereyou've got buyers from every corner
of the world interested in buyingobjects that are culturally important.
(25:24):
If the vendors are willing topart with major objects, the
market will hold its price.
If it's about volume, I think there'senough appetite to cover the volume.
The interesting question is, willthe top objects that are available be
offered on the open market and willthe vendors have the confidence to put
(25:48):
50 million plus objects on the market?
I suspect that in thenext couple of years.
It's less likely, and reading whatGuillaume Chiarutti put out from
Christie's recently about the appetiteof the auction houses to be more
involved in private sales, it'sprobable that some of those major lots
won't come onto the auction market,they'll be transacted privately.
So you might find that there's a littlebit of a hesitation around the, let's say
(26:12):
the 20 million plus object, and that oneneeds to see how confident people are to
go after those in the public environment.
Josh Baer (26:20):
Well, I agree.
We tend to make it that the only realmarket is the auction market and the
public part of the auction market, andwe all, on the inside, know that we
don't want that to be so transparent,and as to what's really going on,
you can't just automatically assumethat that's completely, scotastically
(26:42):
independent of things, and with thespreads that the auction houses might
be taking, Particularly at the lowerlevels and the willingness to take the
risk of selling major objects withoutguarantees is going to be diminished.
That's clear for nowthat I think it's true.
(27:02):
We don't really know what's goingon at Aquavela behind closed doors.
Maybe he made 10 sales of250 million last month.
Could be.
And, and, et cetera, et cetera.
Jussi Pylkkänen (27:16):
I mean, these are all people that are handling very major
Josh Baer (27:19):
objects.
So now you're in position to sort of sumup to be part of those deals as well.
So how do you describe your new business?
Jussi Pylkkänen (27:31):
Listen, the next five years are going to be interesting for me.
I'm going to be buying works of artat the top of the market for a handful
of people that want to work with me.
Um, that'll be institutions as well.
I'd like to auctioneer, watchersspace, perhaps 2025, 2026.
Um, if any of the major collectorswant me to sell on their behalves,
I'd be delighted to do so.
(27:52):
I want to break from it now.
And really, it's giving good advice and,uh, working with the institutions as
well as they organize their exhibitions.
I've probably got quite a good insightinto where major objects are that
haven't been seen for many, many years.
And I'd be delighted to make sure thepublic has the opportunity to see them.
Josh Baer (28:11):
Auctioneers are a bit of rock stars these days.
How did you feel as this sort of,like, movie star on the stage?
Did you like it?
Not
Jussi Pylkkänen (28:19):
a great deal, actually.
I've got to be honest with you.
I enjoyed the process of taking thesales, but being in the sort of public
eye all the time is a bit odd whenyou're approached at airports and
things like that to chat to peoplethat you've never met before about
the art world and all the rest of it.
But what I did enjoy was, So if youlook at Sam Mendes, for example,
(28:41):
great, great theater director.
There's something about being able tocome into a sale room, direct the process.
You've got the actors, you'vegot the script to some degree.
But the way that you conductthe sale is unique to yourself.
And I think that.
A great director can bring 20, 25percent to any roles, even to Hamlet
(29:04):
or to Macbeth, even the classics.
And I think a great auctioneercan probably do the same.
Josh Baer (29:09):
I used to get a kick because Every so often, I'd be standing there
reporting on, you know, underbidderMugabe and standing with the press and
you'd look over and ask me if I wasbidding and I remember one night I was
standing there and actually I was biddingand you were like not paying attention.
I'm like waving my arms.
It's like, yes, we want that.
(29:29):
And you're like, you know, the one timeyou're not looking and taking my bid was
when I was actually bidding in that saleand we didn't announce before the sale.
Jussi Pylkkänen (29:37):
I sold it to you though, eventually.
Yeah.
I'd
Josh Baer (29:40):
be persuaded.
Yes, and all that, and like,because they didn't tell you,
usually you know who's going to bid.
My client called me during the saleto say, I want to buy this thing, and
it's like, I'm scurrying around afterthe auction started, and I'm standing
there like, waving a paddle even.
And you're like, we'll get around.
In fact, we were the only bidder.
You were.
Yeah.
And you would guarantee thatI saved the house on that.
(30:02):
There was a guarantee on that.
So, but you would have fun upthere and you often made fun of me.
You're
Jussi Pylkkänen (30:08):
my best spotter.
Every now and again, you give me a spot.
Particularly in London,actually, you were fantastic.
Because it's a little bit more, um,random as to where people sit and why.
And, uh, when you gave me thenod, I'd, uh, execute for you.
Perfect.
Josh Baer (30:24):
So I'll miss that, with you being gone, but maybe you'll be back.
Jussi Pylkkänen (30:28):
No, I will be back.
Kito.
Kito spalia.
Kito spalia.
And remember, do not transactwithout the Bear Facts.
Will Griffith (30:40):
We'd like to give a big thank you to UC for joining us for
this episode of the Bear Facts podcast,brought to you by David Zwirner.
Our host is Josh Baer.
Our executive producer is Luyang Zhang.
Our content strategist is Bo Liang Shin.
I'm Will Griffith, our associate editor,and our editing team is Mona Productions.
(31:01):
Subscribe today wherever you get yourpodcasts, and check back soon for future
episodes as we unpack the inner workingsof the global art industry through
exclusive, candid interviews with keyplayers in the business as they offer
their perspectives on art and the marketin the US, Europe, Asia, and beyond.
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