February 22, 2024 • 34 mins
Josh sits down with Melissa Chiu, Director of the Hirshhorn Museum and Sculpture Garden on the occasion of the museum's 50th anniversary, and the 10th anniversary of her tenure as Director.
Listen as Melissa reflects on the unique role of the national museum, their TV show, The Exhibit: Finding the Next Great Artist, and the ways artists have influenced the museum, from Hiroshi Sugimoto's vision for the revitalized sculpture garden, to the impact of Yayoi Kusama's Infinity Mirror Rooms. She also shares her personal observations on the evolution of the art world in Asia over the last several decades.
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Episode Transcript
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Josh Baer (00:00):
Hello, I'm Trash Bear, and welcome to the Bear Facts Podcast.
In this episode, Itravel to Washington, D.
C.
to sit down with Melissa Chu,director of the Hirshhorn Museum
and Sculpture Garden, to talk aboutthe evolving role of the National
Art Museum and its 50th anniversary.
(00:21):
This episode is brought to you by my oldfriend, And the very first subscriber
to the Bare Facts, David Zwirner.
By the way, they also have agreat podcast called Dialogues.
Give it a listen after this episode.
It's
marking two anniversaries coming up.
(00:42):
Ten years of being the directorhere and 50 years of the museum.
What does that mean toyou and to the city?
Melissa Chiu (00:50):
Well, 50 years of this museum's history is a real milestone.
as the National Museum ofModern and Contemporary Art.
I think that, you know, so much hashappened in this time of us being open,
but also in terms of an understandingof what modern art was and is now.
(01:11):
And certainly contemporaryart scenes changed a lot.
And for my own tenure, 10 years isa milestone and one that I feel very
fortunate to be here, located inthe nation's capital and now it's an
extraordinary moment to be part ofthis museum's kind of 50th anniversary.
Josh Baer (01:35):
Even these terms modern art.
Yeah, I know.
I wonder about is it time to Changethem with MoMA, Museum of Modern Art.
What does it mean when you talkto people and you say modern art?
What do they think?
Melissa Chiu (01:47):
I think most people, not necessarily in our field,
conflate modern and contemporary.
So, for them it could be art thatwas created today or even now we have
a history of over a hundred years.
So,
Josh Baer (02:03):
Well, you're going to do a 15th anniversary show.
So do you think in terms of that, aboutdifferent periods or do you think about
them for a new audience of being sortof all put together as one narrative?
Melissa Chiu (02:16):
Well, I think we're at a moment where there's no such
thing as one singular narrative.
And I think for us, our 50th anniversaryexhibition was more about us acknowledging
our own history, a collection froma single founder, Joseph Hirshhorn,
(02:39):
and wanting to figure out how to kindof talk about that history of its
collection, that here we are, it wasone person's dream to assemble an
important collection that could thenone day go on and found a museum.
It really came from first an impulse,uh, a collecting impulse that he had.
(03:04):
And so in some ways our collectionis based on an individual approach.
You know, he had certain predilectionsand interests that we've inherited.
And so this exhibition is about, insome ways accounting for it, but also
figuring out what this, um, I mean, theshow begins in 1860, which is a moment
(03:26):
that people don't necessarily associatewith modern art and so it's really
one that allows us to showcase more ofour collection depth and holdings that
really haven't been seen in a long timeand in a way that people don't really
associate with the Hirshhorn history norour way of kind of telling that story.
(03:49):
Well,
Josh Baer (03:49):
how would you compare the story being told now, particularly
in relationship to the works thathe gave, to how that story was
told 50 years ago at the founding?
Has the story changed as history keptto the same place, or has it really
developed in ways that no one, or even Mr.
Hirshhorn, wouldn't have expected it?
Melissa Chiu (04:10):
Well, I think there are a couple of, um, important differences.
I think the first difference I would sayis that when we opened in 1974, that's
often known as the post war period,but you're still in the 20th century.
And I often talk about our scope ashaving just expanded exponentially.
(04:35):
Where in 74, you were talking about74 years or so, give or take, now
we're talking about over 100 years.
So the late 19th century, early 20thcentury works actually feel like
they're so far removed from our lifetoday, that we feel like we have to
(04:55):
always be providing much more context.
So that's kind of one thingthat our mission and scope
kind of stretched, right?
50 years on from our founding.
And then the other thing is that the,um, art history itself, and I've spoken
about this in the past, has changed somuch from even when I went to art school.
(05:16):
When I was at art school, I was veryinterested in multiple art centers.
And even that was kind of Wereyou making art in art school?
I went to a university where it was adegree in art history and criticism,
and we were required to make art,even though we were art historians.
I always think of that as beingsuch an important grounding to my
(05:37):
own understanding of how hard itis to make work that is compelling
and with your own kind of voice.
And I'm always humbled by it, butI also feel like I have some degree
of knowledge of what making is like.
When I think of art history, Ithink of multiple stories, multiple
(05:57):
voices, and multiple locations.
And I don't think that that'show I was taught art history.
I was taught art history asmaybe two major art centers,
and kind of that was it.
You had to be in Paris or NewYork in order to really make it.
When I was coming of age in the, um,late nineties, there began to be a
(06:18):
discussion about multiple art centers.
And that's kind of what drew me into,in some ways, wanting to study what
I did was a moment of internationalbiennales and, um, things like that.
So when I think today of how we tell arthistory, in some ways, I go back to my
early studies, which is there are multipleways of approaching this multiple voices.
(06:42):
And that's what we've tried to doin our revolutions 50th anniversary
show, which is to also allow, uh,contemporary counterpoints to the
historical works in our collection.
Josh Baer (06:56):
I'm going to come back a little bit more to politics.
Revolution is an interesting concept.
I'm thinking to what you were sayingabout even using the term post war.
It's been identified to me lately.
It's like, who's war?
Yeah.
Which war?
Which war?
Which war?
And we took it for granted.
And you still see it at theauction houses, talk about it.
(07:16):
And we think about it as only one war.
And suddenly language is goingto have to change quite a bit.
So as we slide into theseterminologies, And I think Reflecting
on it is useful for where we stand,particularly as you're trying to
think about how you're more global.
Will Griffith (07:39):
After the break, Melissa shares her observations on the
evolution of the art world in Asia.
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcastis brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is about art.
Artists and the Way They Think,with each episode featuring a
conversation with artists, writers,filmmakers, and musicians exploring
(08:02):
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Tune in for conversations with artistslike Njideka Akunyili Crosby, Elizabeth
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Melissa Chiu (08:18):
I'm always reminded of my work, uh, in Asia.
And when I traveled to Vietnam in themid 1990s, you know, here we refer
to it as the Vietnam war and therethey refer to it as the American war.
And so it's all about where you arestanding and For so long, art centers,
(08:41):
such as New York, were really a center,and so they defined the terms and the
Josh Baer (08:48):
language.
There was one history of art, itwas how MoMA told it, from the
beginning of Picasso, Brancusi, Baba.
through ABAX to Pop Art, andthat's kind of an elite view.
I happen to like that view,but it is a bit monolithic.
Do you think, let's goback to Asia for a second.
(09:10):
Now it's 2024, you have like MPlus there, you have 25 years
of being a bit open to the West.
What do you see nowversus when you started?
Looking at art there andseeing the art scene,
Melissa Chiu (09:24):
I often think that it would be hard to imagine how much it's changed
from when I first began to travel in theregion, like from the early 1990s, and
I think it's almost come full circle inthe sense that throughout the 1990s kind
(09:44):
of peaking in anywhere from 2000 to 2010.
There was an exponential sense of justdevelopment on every front, whether it
was new museums, public and private,galleries, auctions, biennales.
(10:07):
Non profits, artists run spaces,all of the ecology that we come to
associate with a contemporary artworld was there in Asia, in different
ways, in different countries.
And yet, today, we have avery different scenario.
I was just talking to a friend andcolleague, Orville Schell, who runs the U.
(10:27):
S.
China Center, and we collaboratedon an interview about Chinese
contemporary art, because bothof us were doing so much work.
Uh, at the time in the Chinesecontemporary art scene.
And we said, we didn't realize thatwe were there at a high point, at
a moment in which there was so muchopenness and kind of porosity between
(10:49):
the art worlds, between the U.
S., between China, between the world.
And so now it's a verydifferent environment.
We always assume that it's linearprogression, but actually it's never
like that in reality, that thingsgo back and forth all the time.
And so on the one hand, the generationof artists that I studied, researched,
(11:09):
did a PhD in, you know, they havea huge body of work behind them.
And now we see a new youngergeneration emerge, but with
a very different sensibility.
And a very different relationship to thegovernment and with a very different set
of, um, preoccupations and interests.
So it's a completely different place.
What
Josh Baer (11:29):
I found fascinating being there three times last year and having
been other times is it's kind of theknowledge is kind of simultaneous for
a lot of the people they discoveredold masters and impressionism
and pop art and emerging art.
Almost simultaneous, they'reseeing it in broad way.
(11:51):
In fact, I think they'rea little bit embarrassed.
It's that bad.
I think it's kind of great toexperience all art at one point,
rather than in this sort of classicway that we've been put together.
Do you think that that's accurate towhat's gone on for a lot of people?
I
Melissa Chiu (12:08):
think it depends who we're talking about.
I think there's definitely an asymmetry.
Certainly for collectors.
Oh, okay, for collectors, okay.
Definitely true.
I think that I often think aboutit as an interesting asymmetry
of knowledge, in that whenever Itravel in Asia, there's often a deep
understanding of American art, actually.
(12:32):
And yet here, there's not nearlyan interest necessarily always in
understanding what that local context is.
I'm often struck by that.
I think if we're talkingabout new collectors in Asia,
that's a different scenario.
And I think what is interesting isthat what you speak of as a kind
(12:54):
of a lack of hierarchy of knowledgenecessarily, that you're learning
things all at the same time.
It's certainly the case thatknowledge is learned very differently
today than say even 15 years agobecause so much is available.
You know, if you're a collector, weused to have to wait for magazines.
(13:18):
And I mean, I've, Sound very old now,but there's a simultaneity of knowledge,
like all at once, all at the same time.
I remember even a number of years agothat friends of mine in China would
have a better sense when I lived inNew York, they'd have a better sense of
what was going on in New York becausepeople would FaceTime them at the
openings and they would be doing videos.
(13:41):
And so they would know all of, youknow, what was going on in Chelsea.
at that moment in time.
And so I think that the way peopleconsume or learn is very different today.
But I would say that the ideaof connoisseurship, which in the
contemporary art world is like a bit ofa dirty word, but you know, it's, how
(14:02):
do you acquire a depth of knowledge?
I think that's harder today, actually.
I
Josh Baer (14:08):
often say we're over informed, but undereducated.
And you think because you'vegot Google and all these things
that you know what's going on.
But if you're not seeing art inperson or there's just many rabbit
holes, um, the other thing we noticedlately is there was a big show
opening at Hausernworth in Hong Kong.
And I noticed like, this is a Chinesemaster and like none of us in the West.
(14:32):
Know what that person is.
So we in the West, in fact, we're behindbecause they know what's going on here.
And we don't have much knowledge of what'sbeen going on a 50 years of, of that.
Do you feel that you bridgethat gap a little bit?
And that's part of your mission?
I don't
Melissa Chiu (14:50):
know about me personally, but my own background, you know, my
father is from China, my mother'sAustralian, and I think I have.
felt that I'm kind of acutelyaware of an in between space.
And I'm not sure of how that'snecessarily impacted my work here
at the Hirshhorn, but I am veryinterested in artists that lie a
(15:14):
little bit outside of the usual streams
Josh Baer (15:18):
of Well, let me segue into a different in between space.
Yeah.
Because you're in an in between spaceof United States government and the
politics of Washington and workingwith a lot of young artists who have
strong feelings about these things.
and have made a conscious decision.
I think that the demographics ofwhat you collect as a museum, what
(15:42):
you show have shifted quite a bit.
So you are that middle person there.
Can you talk about that alittle bit of those challenges?
Will Griffith (15:54):
Join us in a moment as Melissa reflects on the responsibilities
of a national art museum and theHirshhorn's recent television show.
Finding the next great artist.
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcastis brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is aboutartists and the way they think.
(16:15):
With each episode featuring aconversation with artists, writers,
filmmakers, and musicians exploringwhat it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations with creativesfrom Luca Guadagnino, to Sofia Coppola,
to Hilton Als, and so many more.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Melissa Chiu (16:36):
It's a curious position to be a national museum and that we have
really been thinking about that a lot.
Like, what does it mean to havea national mandate or mission?
And I think that it's about havinga sense of being accessible.
(16:56):
And we talk about this radicalaccessibility, how we are a free museum.
We're one of the few majormodern contemporary art museums
that are free in this country.
And so, knowing that we want toshare all of the work that we do
with the most people possible.
(17:16):
You know, how do we do that?
Knowing that contemporary art used tobe, you know, when I joined the field,
it used to be considered somethingthat was for the rarefied few.
And so being here located on the NationalMall, where there are 35 million annual
visitors, we think a lot about, you know,what is that first point of contact, first
(17:39):
entry point for a visitor that's neverbeen in a museum of modern art before.
I think we're looking for a programthat addresses both the history side,
it's like, what can we tell the visitorabout history and our collection?
And on the other side, what canwe say about the world today
(18:00):
through an artist's perspective?
Josh Baer (18:02):
And an interesting conversation with Adam Weinberg, the
director of the Whitney, and it wasduring COVID, like, who's our audience?
Is it people who live here in Washingtonthat come every show and their members?
Is it the 35 million people whocome to Washington to see the Air
(18:24):
and Space, to see the White House?
And a third audience that's, especiallyduring lockdown, that was virtual.
Do you favor one the other?
Are you reaching different ways?
I would think that COVID reallyforced that conversation in some ways.
Melissa Chiu (18:42):
During COVID, we made this decision to attempt to do everything
we did in our building online.
And I would say one of the mostsuccessful projects that we did was
that we worked with Arthur Jafa topresent a work that we acquired.
Josh Baer (19:03):
One of my top 10 favorite artists.
Yes.
A huge
Melissa Chiu (19:06):
fan.
Love is the message, the message is death.
But that was at that particular moment andincredibly significant work to help people
to understand his experience in America.
And we realized working with him thatthere were a number of other museums
with that work in their collection.
And at a moment when all museumsaround the world were closed, we
(19:30):
collaborated with, we convened 13museums and we web streamed it.
You know, we'd never done that before.
And it over a weekend, Ithink attracted over 150, 000.
Visitors, essentially, and that for me,I think, was a high point of the work
that we were able to do during COVID,
Josh Baer (19:51):
you know, this is still Washington.
Is there any other insightthat you've observed here that
we New Yorkers might not see?
I think so, because New York, I mean,the other day in New York, we had
They take over the atrium of MoMAand the museum seemed to say, you
guys can stay, just don't damageanything and leave at seven o'clock.
(20:13):
And from what I read, they seem to sort ofgo with the flow, but there's a lot going
on there that's New York based that wouldbe different, I suspect, in Washington.
Melissa Chiu (20:23):
Mm hmm.
It's true.
It's true.
I mean, DC, uh, you know, themajority of our visitors are actually
from, you know, outside of DC.
So they're from all across America.
And I think that we're more likely toencounter a visitor that is simply curious
rather than one that has a set series ofexpectations of what we should be doing.
(20:50):
So that has a different kind of
Josh Baer (20:52):
inflection.
Now, sort of going back on the ArthurJafa thing a little bit, you did do
this experiment through mass media.
Through your TV show, what wasit called and where was it shown?
Melissa Chiu (21:04):
The exhibit finding the next great artist was a collaboration with
Smithsonian channel and subsequently MTV.
I have to say,
Josh Baer (21:14):
I didn't watch it, even though some friends are on it.
Then you can't comment on it.
So I'm not going to comment on somethingI haven't seen, but I'd be curious.
What was that experience like?
Melissa Chiu (21:25):
So people in the art world are very suspicious of TV, generally.
And I understand why.
My
Josh Baer (21:31):
dad was a television writer.
So maybe I'm less.
Well, I
Melissa Chiu (21:35):
haven't done this.
I understand why we did it.
We made a decision at the museum tomove forward for a number of reasons.
I think firstly, we collaboratedwith the Smithsonian channel.
So we were able to have a hand insome of the content in the selection
(21:57):
of the artists and other elements.
So within each episode, there isan inclusion of her Sean works
in the collection, for example,which is a very different format.
From other television series, you know,so it had a very different tenor, although
is seen as a competition, it was lesscompetitive than other models, right?
(22:22):
Meaning there was noelimination, nothing like that.
I mean, there are lots of waysin which we actually had a
commitment to work with the artist.
and the television producers, Smithsonianchannel to create a series that was
about being an artist and making workwith our own mission as a museum.
(22:43):
We felt like that was an importantcontribution in a very different medium.
Then we would ordinarily work.
The art
Josh Baer (22:53):
world is very conservative.
And it's really, and it's veryprudish and it hates anything new.
So it took a little bit of bravery tosay, I know we're going to take some
incoming, but there's a different point.
Melissa Chiu (23:10):
And I think for us, it wasn't for the art world.
It was for the 112 million households thatSmithsonian Channel and MTV might reach.
And this is something that I think isdifferent from perhaps a New York museum.
Our audience is this country.
And so would it not make sensefor us to then try to reach
(23:33):
audiences in their own homes?
Josh Baer (23:34):
I think we get lost into this notion that there's one art world.
The world I'm in is a really smallworld of a couple thousand people.
And most of the time you're in that world,that's where the money comes, that's where
the best art, quote unquote, is that'sreally radical and changing art history.
And then there's millions of other artistsand they're doing something different.
(23:57):
It's not worse, it's different.
And so I think you should becommended for making attempts.
Melissa Chiu (24:04):
I mean, that's for us an important piece of our work.
We want to be able to speak todifferent audiences in different ways.
And that's what a public museum is about.
That on the one hand, we cando a Tino Sehgal performance.
And on the other hand, we can,you know, show de Kooning.
(24:25):
We can have a Laurie Anderson show.
For us, it's about how do we have.
different kinds of voices, differentkinds of artworks that can somehow,
you know, cohabit within this museum.
Will Griffith (24:41):
In our final segment, Melissa considers the ways
artists have influenced the museum.
From Hiroshi Sugimoto's newsculpture garden, To Yayoi
Kusama's Infinity Mirror Rooms.
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(25:05):
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Josh Baer (25:21):
As a public space here, something big has gone on here
also with the sculpture garden.
Could you tell us a little bitmore about what that is, how
that was done, who organized it?
Melissa Chiu (25:31):
So the sculpture garden is a major project for all of us here.
It's been many years now in the planning.
We commissioned Hiroshi Sugimoto,who is probably best known for his
photographs and some years ago beganto design spaces and architecture.
And so we commissioned him torethink our sculpture garden and
(25:55):
to really propose what a sculpturegarden of the 21st century could be.
And that is for us a space that isdirectly located on the National Mall.
It is one that now we can, with hisdesign, have an open gallery space that is
changing for new large scale commissions.
(26:17):
There are more intimategalleries for the 20th century.
works in depth that we have by BarbaraHepworth and Henry Moore and Matisse
and others, and also performance space.
So for us, it's an important extensionof the galleries inside our museum.
So we'll be doing everything thatwe now do inside also outside.
Josh Baer (26:39):
And speaking of Sugimoto, I often tell people the best
piece of writing I've seen about,I'll use the word post war Japan,
was his essay for the Hirshhorn.
It's about a 20 page.
Essay, and it's really maybe the bestpiece of artist writing I've ever read.
So if you can find that catalog.
I don't even know where mine is, someonetook it, but it's a great, great piece.
(27:03):
And I associate the Hirshhorn withSugimoto in that piece of writing.
Yeah.
I
Melissa Chiu (27:09):
think it's important that an artist was able to rethink the
space too, because it really was aboutcreating the right environment for art,
and who better to do that than an artist.
Tell us a little
Josh Baer (27:24):
bit more about what's upcoming in exhibitions for people to
get them excited to come and visit.
So we've
Melissa Chiu (27:32):
been working these past few years with Os Gemios, who are Brazilian
twins, who began their life as graffitiartists and now, uh, creating quite
extraordinary installations, paintings,sculpture, and looking forward to working
with them in their Third floor takeoverof the museum and we're also working
(27:58):
on a commission with Adam Pendleton and
Josh Baer (28:01):
anything Way out down the line that's coming.
It's great when museums can work on ashort turnaround Which is I think a really
tough thing to stay relevant for a museumwhen it can take two three four years
to organize But sometimes you need 5 or10 years to do a Rothko show or, what's
the show I saw here, was it Yves Klein?
(28:22):
That was a tremendous show.
Yes, that was an amazing show.
I remember that.
That must have taken along time and a lot to do.
Is there anything on that level that'sFive or 10 years out that you can.
Melissa Chiu (28:36):
Five or 10 years out is the revitalization of this whole museum.
So once the sculpture garden iscomplete, then we turn our attention
to this building and SOM, the originalarchitects and Annabel Seldorf
are responsible for that redesign.
That's interior?
Interior.
So expanding the galleries, makingas much of this building as possible
(28:59):
publicly accessible and for art.
When
Josh Baer (29:02):
the demand is there, people want to come.
I mean, when you did the Kusamarooms, I mean, the attendance
must have been insane,
Melissa Chiu (29:09):
right?
So that year was anextraordinary year for us.
So we had 1.
2 million visitors and that exhibitionfor us was really a breakthrough moment.
And it's hard to imagine today becauseKusama is so much in the public sphere.
But when we embarked onthat exhibition, which had.
a focus specifically on her infinitymirrored rooms, which had not really
(29:31):
received much attention prior to that.
It was an extraordinary moment where,you know, we had lines around the
museum from 3am in the morning and
Josh Baer (29:43):
then we sent it on national tour.
I think that we were, that werealized really what the demand
for art and serious art was.
And I remember even David's WernerGallery in Chelsea, people were
waiting 6, 8, 10 hours in line.
I mean, that's terriblethat they waited so long.
But on the other hand, the factthat people wanted to, the only
place that gets a little iffy isit being set up for selfies and
(30:05):
how to get past that moment, too.
That's sort of the 2.
0 of looking
Melissa Chiu (30:10):
at art.
Well, it's somewhat ironic because herinfinity mirrored rooms are intended
to be fully immersive moments of.
in a way, not just immersion, but escape.
You're in an environmentto take you somewhere else.
So it's kind of ironic thatit became a selfie thing.
Josh Baer (30:32):
Yes, and then you had to be sort of organized.
You have 12 minutes or four minutes.
Oh, much less than that.
You know, or one minute, rather thansome people would like two minutes,
and some people would like an hour.
And that's kind of an unfortunatebyproduct of its own success.
But I think the moment here reallychanged the perception of, what the demand
(30:54):
from young people was to look at art.
So
Melissa Chiu (30:57):
it's hard to imagine, but she began to create those works in 1965.
And up until our exhibition that reallylooked at that part of her practice, they
were really always considered a sideline,you know, to her infinity net paintings.
And then I think that the kind ofcoming together of a moment of a
(31:20):
younger audience demographic beinginterested in contemporary art and
museums, along with their cell phones.
That was a whole other coalescenceof things that changed and a
whole appreciation of her workand those works in particular.
Josh Baer (31:36):
One last question that relates to something that I spoke about recently.
Um, I've been complaining thata lot of major museums don't
have artists on their board.
Now, a number of other major museums do.
It's like, how can this be 2024?
And for some institutions to thinkthat that's not something valuable.
It's like, it seemslike preposterous to me.
Melissa Chiu (31:58):
So the Hirshhorn has, uh, nearly always had
artists as board members.
And for a long time, Ann Hamilton served,um, most recently Theaster Gates, who
did so much work with us during histenure to help us to develop different
(32:18):
kinds of communities and audiences hereat the museum, whether it was through
a performance series, whether it wasthrough public programs that he did, or
even during COVID, where we co curatedan artist diary series in the First three
weeks of the COVID lockdown, we invitednearly 50 artists to send in kind of video
(32:44):
diaries almost of their life in lockdown.
And it was a wonderful kind ofpersonal, very intimate look at
what it was like to be an artist inthat particular moment in history.
But
Josh Baer (32:55):
when you're sitting at the bar at the association of art museum
directors, then somebody able toturn to one of the others says, yo.
No artists on the board, what's going on?
And do those directors say,I know, you're right, but?
Or is it just not spoken about?
Director to director.
Melissa Chiu (33:13):
I've never had a conversation like that with a director.
Maybe you should.
I mean, each to their own.
You know, I mean, everyone, each board ofeach museum has its own kind of ecosystem,
its own history, its own understanding.
And, you know, we try to do ourbest on representation on our
Josh Baer (33:34):
board.
What a great political answer, given thatwe're in the home of American politics.
With that, I say thank you,Melissa, for joining us.
Melissa Chiu (33:44):
Thank you, Josh.
Wonderful to have you here.
Will Griffith (33:50):
Thank you for listening to the Fairfax podcast.
This episode is broughtto you by David z Werner.
Our host is Josh Bearer.
Our executive producer is Lou Yang Zong.
Our content strategist is Boli Yang Shin.
I'm Will Griffith, our associate editor.
And our editing team is Mona Productions.
Subscribe today wherever you get yourpodcasts, and check back soon for future
(34:12):
episodes as we unpack the inner workingsof the global art industry through
exclusive, candid interviews with keyplayers in the business as they offer
their perspectives on art and the marketin the US, Europe, Asia, and beyond.
Hello, I'm Trash Bear, and welcome to the Bear Facts Podcast.
In this episode, Itravel to Washington, D.
C.
to sit down with Melissa Chu,director of the Hirshhorn Museum
and Sculpture Garden, to talk aboutthe evolving role of the National
Art Museum and its 50th anniversary.
(00:21):
This episode is brought to you by my oldfriend, And the very first subscriber
to the Bare Facts, David Zwirner.
By the way, they also have agreat podcast called Dialogues.
Give it a listen after this episode.
It's
marking two anniversaries coming up.
(00:42):
Ten years of being the directorhere and 50 years of the museum.
What does that mean toyou and to the city?
Melissa Chiu (00:50):
Well, 50 years of this museum's history is a real milestone.
as the National Museum ofModern and Contemporary Art.
I think that, you know, so much hashappened in this time of us being open,
but also in terms of an understandingof what modern art was and is now.
(01:11):
And certainly contemporaryart scenes changed a lot.
And for my own tenure, 10 years isa milestone and one that I feel very
fortunate to be here, located inthe nation's capital and now it's an
extraordinary moment to be part ofthis museum's kind of 50th anniversary.
Josh Baer (01:35):
Even these terms modern art.
Yeah, I know.
I wonder about is it time to Changethem with MoMA, Museum of Modern Art.
What does it mean when you talkto people and you say modern art?
What do they think?
Melissa Chiu (01:47):
I think most people, not necessarily in our field,
conflate modern and contemporary.
So, for them it could be art thatwas created today or even now we have
a history of over a hundred years.
So,
Josh Baer (02:03):
Well, you're going to do a 15th anniversary show.
So do you think in terms of that, aboutdifferent periods or do you think about
them for a new audience of being sortof all put together as one narrative?
Melissa Chiu (02:16):
Well, I think we're at a moment where there's no such
thing as one singular narrative.
And I think for us, our 50th anniversaryexhibition was more about us acknowledging
our own history, a collection froma single founder, Joseph Hirshhorn,
(02:39):
and wanting to figure out how to kindof talk about that history of its
collection, that here we are, it wasone person's dream to assemble an
important collection that could thenone day go on and found a museum.
It really came from first an impulse,uh, a collecting impulse that he had.
(03:04):
And so in some ways our collectionis based on an individual approach.
You know, he had certain predilectionsand interests that we've inherited.
And so this exhibition is about, insome ways accounting for it, but also
figuring out what this, um, I mean, theshow begins in 1860, which is a moment
(03:26):
that people don't necessarily associatewith modern art and so it's really
one that allows us to showcase more ofour collection depth and holdings that
really haven't been seen in a long timeand in a way that people don't really
associate with the Hirshhorn history norour way of kind of telling that story.
(03:49):
Well,
Josh Baer (03:49):
how would you compare the story being told now, particularly
in relationship to the works thathe gave, to how that story was
told 50 years ago at the founding?
Has the story changed as history keptto the same place, or has it really
developed in ways that no one, or even Mr.
Hirshhorn, wouldn't have expected it?
Melissa Chiu (04:10):
Well, I think there are a couple of, um, important differences.
I think the first difference I would sayis that when we opened in 1974, that's
often known as the post war period,but you're still in the 20th century.
And I often talk about our scope ashaving just expanded exponentially.
(04:35):
Where in 74, you were talking about74 years or so, give or take, now
we're talking about over 100 years.
So the late 19th century, early 20thcentury works actually feel like
they're so far removed from our lifetoday, that we feel like we have to
(04:55):
always be providing much more context.
So that's kind of one thingthat our mission and scope
kind of stretched, right?
50 years on from our founding.
And then the other thing is that the,um, art history itself, and I've spoken
about this in the past, has changed somuch from even when I went to art school.
(05:16):
When I was at art school, I was veryinterested in multiple art centers.
And even that was kind of Wereyou making art in art school?
I went to a university where it was adegree in art history and criticism,
and we were required to make art,even though we were art historians.
I always think of that as beingsuch an important grounding to my
(05:37):
own understanding of how hard itis to make work that is compelling
and with your own kind of voice.
And I'm always humbled by it, butI also feel like I have some degree
of knowledge of what making is like.
When I think of art history, Ithink of multiple stories, multiple
(05:57):
voices, and multiple locations.
And I don't think that that'show I was taught art history.
I was taught art history asmaybe two major art centers,
and kind of that was it.
You had to be in Paris or NewYork in order to really make it.
When I was coming of age in the, um,late nineties, there began to be a
(06:18):
discussion about multiple art centers.
And that's kind of what drew me into,in some ways, wanting to study what
I did was a moment of internationalbiennales and, um, things like that.
So when I think today of how we tell arthistory, in some ways, I go back to my
early studies, which is there are multipleways of approaching this multiple voices.
(06:42):
And that's what we've tried to doin our revolutions 50th anniversary
show, which is to also allow, uh,contemporary counterpoints to the
historical works in our collection.
Josh Baer (06:56):
I'm going to come back a little bit more to politics.
Revolution is an interesting concept.
I'm thinking to what you were sayingabout even using the term post war.
It's been identified to me lately.
It's like, who's war?
Yeah.
Which war?
Which war?
Which war?
And we took it for granted.
And you still see it at theauction houses, talk about it.
(07:16):
And we think about it as only one war.
And suddenly language is goingto have to change quite a bit.
So as we slide into theseterminologies, And I think Reflecting
on it is useful for where we stand,particularly as you're trying to
think about how you're more global.
Will Griffith (07:39):
After the break, Melissa shares her observations on the
evolution of the art world in Asia.
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcastis brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is about art.
Artists and the Way They Think,with each episode featuring a
conversation with artists, writers,filmmakers, and musicians exploring
(08:02):
what it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations with artistslike Njideka Akunyili Crosby, Elizabeth
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Melissa Chiu (08:18):
I'm always reminded of my work, uh, in Asia.
And when I traveled to Vietnam in themid 1990s, you know, here we refer
to it as the Vietnam war and therethey refer to it as the American war.
And so it's all about where you arestanding and For so long, art centers,
(08:41):
such as New York, were really a center,and so they defined the terms and the
Josh Baer (08:48):
language.
There was one history of art, itwas how MoMA told it, from the
beginning of Picasso, Brancusi, Baba.
through ABAX to Pop Art, andthat's kind of an elite view.
I happen to like that view,but it is a bit monolithic.
Do you think, let's goback to Asia for a second.
(09:10):
Now it's 2024, you have like MPlus there, you have 25 years
of being a bit open to the West.
What do you see nowversus when you started?
Looking at art there andseeing the art scene,
Melissa Chiu (09:24):
I often think that it would be hard to imagine how much it's changed
from when I first began to travel in theregion, like from the early 1990s, and
I think it's almost come full circle inthe sense that throughout the 1990s kind
(09:44):
of peaking in anywhere from 2000 to 2010.
There was an exponential sense of justdevelopment on every front, whether it
was new museums, public and private,galleries, auctions, biennales.
(10:07):
Non profits, artists run spaces,all of the ecology that we come to
associate with a contemporary artworld was there in Asia, in different
ways, in different countries.
And yet, today, we have avery different scenario.
I was just talking to a friend andcolleague, Orville Schell, who runs the U.
(10:27):
S.
China Center, and we collaboratedon an interview about Chinese
contemporary art, because bothof us were doing so much work.
Uh, at the time in the Chinesecontemporary art scene.
And we said, we didn't realize thatwe were there at a high point, at
a moment in which there was so muchopenness and kind of porosity between
(10:49):
the art worlds, between the U.
S., between China, between the world.
And so now it's a verydifferent environment.
We always assume that it's linearprogression, but actually it's never
like that in reality, that thingsgo back and forth all the time.
And so on the one hand, the generationof artists that I studied, researched,
(11:09):
did a PhD in, you know, they havea huge body of work behind them.
And now we see a new youngergeneration emerge, but with
a very different sensibility.
And a very different relationship to thegovernment and with a very different set
of, um, preoccupations and interests.
So it's a completely different place.
What
Josh Baer (11:29):
I found fascinating being there three times last year and having
been other times is it's kind of theknowledge is kind of simultaneous for
a lot of the people they discoveredold masters and impressionism
and pop art and emerging art.
Almost simultaneous, they'reseeing it in broad way.
(11:51):
In fact, I think they'rea little bit embarrassed.
It's that bad.
I think it's kind of great toexperience all art at one point,
rather than in this sort of classicway that we've been put together.
Do you think that that's accurate towhat's gone on for a lot of people?
I
Melissa Chiu (12:08):
think it depends who we're talking about.
I think there's definitely an asymmetry.
Certainly for collectors.
Oh, okay, for collectors, okay.
Definitely true.
I think that I often think aboutit as an interesting asymmetry
of knowledge, in that whenever Itravel in Asia, there's often a deep
understanding of American art, actually.
(12:32):
And yet here, there's not nearlyan interest necessarily always in
understanding what that local context is.
I'm often struck by that.
I think if we're talkingabout new collectors in Asia,
that's a different scenario.
And I think what is interesting isthat what you speak of as a kind
(12:54):
of a lack of hierarchy of knowledgenecessarily, that you're learning
things all at the same time.
It's certainly the case thatknowledge is learned very differently
today than say even 15 years agobecause so much is available.
You know, if you're a collector, weused to have to wait for magazines.
(13:18):
And I mean, I've, Sound very old now,but there's a simultaneity of knowledge,
like all at once, all at the same time.
I remember even a number of years agothat friends of mine in China would
have a better sense when I lived inNew York, they'd have a better sense of
what was going on in New York becausepeople would FaceTime them at the
openings and they would be doing videos.
(13:41):
And so they would know all of, youknow, what was going on in Chelsea.
at that moment in time.
And so I think that the way peopleconsume or learn is very different today.
But I would say that the ideaof connoisseurship, which in the
contemporary art world is like a bit ofa dirty word, but you know, it's, how
(14:02):
do you acquire a depth of knowledge?
I think that's harder today, actually.
I
Josh Baer (14:08):
often say we're over informed, but undereducated.
And you think because you'vegot Google and all these things
that you know what's going on.
But if you're not seeing art inperson or there's just many rabbit
holes, um, the other thing we noticedlately is there was a big show
opening at Hausernworth in Hong Kong.
And I noticed like, this is a Chinesemaster and like none of us in the West.
(14:32):
Know what that person is.
So we in the West, in fact, we're behindbecause they know what's going on here.
And we don't have much knowledge of what'sbeen going on a 50 years of, of that.
Do you feel that you bridgethat gap a little bit?
And that's part of your mission?
I don't
Melissa Chiu (14:50):
know about me personally, but my own background, you know, my
father is from China, my mother'sAustralian, and I think I have.
felt that I'm kind of acutelyaware of an in between space.
And I'm not sure of how that'snecessarily impacted my work here
at the Hirshhorn, but I am veryinterested in artists that lie a
(15:14):
little bit outside of the usual streams
Josh Baer (15:18):
of Well, let me segue into a different in between space.
Yeah.
Because you're in an in between spaceof United States government and the
politics of Washington and workingwith a lot of young artists who have
strong feelings about these things.
and have made a conscious decision.
I think that the demographics ofwhat you collect as a museum, what
(15:42):
you show have shifted quite a bit.
So you are that middle person there.
Can you talk about that alittle bit of those challenges?
Will Griffith (15:54):
Join us in a moment as Melissa reflects on the responsibilities
of a national art museum and theHirshhorn's recent television show.
Finding the next great artist.
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcastis brought to you by David Zwirner.
Their podcast, Dialogues, is aboutartists and the way they think.
(16:15):
With each episode featuring aconversation with artists, writers,
filmmakers, and musicians exploringwhat it means to make things today.
Tune in for conversations with creativesfrom Luca Guadagnino, to Sofia Coppola,
to Hilton Als, and so many more.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Melissa Chiu (16:36):
It's a curious position to be a national museum and that we have
really been thinking about that a lot.
Like, what does it mean to havea national mandate or mission?
And I think that it's about havinga sense of being accessible.
(16:56):
And we talk about this radicalaccessibility, how we are a free museum.
We're one of the few majormodern contemporary art museums
that are free in this country.
And so, knowing that we want toshare all of the work that we do
with the most people possible.
(17:16):
You know, how do we do that?
Knowing that contemporary art used tobe, you know, when I joined the field,
it used to be considered somethingthat was for the rarefied few.
And so being here located on the NationalMall, where there are 35 million annual
visitors, we think a lot about, you know,what is that first point of contact, first
(17:39):
entry point for a visitor that's neverbeen in a museum of modern art before.
I think we're looking for a programthat addresses both the history side,
it's like, what can we tell the visitorabout history and our collection?
And on the other side, what canwe say about the world today
(18:00):
through an artist's perspective?
Josh Baer (18:02):
And an interesting conversation with Adam Weinberg, the
director of the Whitney, and it wasduring COVID, like, who's our audience?
Is it people who live here in Washingtonthat come every show and their members?
Is it the 35 million people whocome to Washington to see the Air
(18:24):
and Space, to see the White House?
And a third audience that's, especiallyduring lockdown, that was virtual.
Do you favor one the other?
Are you reaching different ways?
I would think that COVID reallyforced that conversation in some ways.
Melissa Chiu (18:42):
During COVID, we made this decision to attempt to do everything
we did in our building online.
And I would say one of the mostsuccessful projects that we did was
that we worked with Arthur Jafa topresent a work that we acquired.
Josh Baer (19:03):
One of my top 10 favorite artists.
Yes.
A huge
Melissa Chiu (19:06):
fan.
Love is the message, the message is death.
But that was at that particular moment andincredibly significant work to help people
to understand his experience in America.
And we realized working with him thatthere were a number of other museums
with that work in their collection.
And at a moment when all museumsaround the world were closed, we
(19:30):
collaborated with, we convened 13museums and we web streamed it.
You know, we'd never done that before.
And it over a weekend, Ithink attracted over 150, 000.
Visitors, essentially, and that for me,I think, was a high point of the work
that we were able to do during COVID,
Josh Baer (19:51):
you know, this is still Washington.
Is there any other insightthat you've observed here that
we New Yorkers might not see?
I think so, because New York, I mean,the other day in New York, we had
They take over the atrium of MoMAand the museum seemed to say, you
guys can stay, just don't damageanything and leave at seven o'clock.
(20:13):
And from what I read, they seem to sort ofgo with the flow, but there's a lot going
on there that's New York based that wouldbe different, I suspect, in Washington.
Melissa Chiu (20:23):
Mm hmm.
It's true.
It's true.
I mean, DC, uh, you know, themajority of our visitors are actually
from, you know, outside of DC.
So they're from all across America.
And I think that we're more likely toencounter a visitor that is simply curious
rather than one that has a set series ofexpectations of what we should be doing.
(20:50):
So that has a different kind of
Josh Baer (20:52):
inflection.
Now, sort of going back on the ArthurJafa thing a little bit, you did do
this experiment through mass media.
Through your TV show, what wasit called and where was it shown?
Melissa Chiu (21:04):
The exhibit finding the next great artist was a collaboration with
Smithsonian channel and subsequently MTV.
I have to say,
Josh Baer (21:14):
I didn't watch it, even though some friends are on it.
Then you can't comment on it.
So I'm not going to comment on somethingI haven't seen, but I'd be curious.
What was that experience like?
Melissa Chiu (21:25):
So people in the art world are very suspicious of TV, generally.
And I understand why.
My
Josh Baer (21:31):
dad was a television writer.
So maybe I'm less.
Well, I
Melissa Chiu (21:35):
haven't done this.
I understand why we did it.
We made a decision at the museum tomove forward for a number of reasons.
I think firstly, we collaboratedwith the Smithsonian channel.
So we were able to have a hand insome of the content in the selection
(21:57):
of the artists and other elements.
So within each episode, there isan inclusion of her Sean works
in the collection, for example,which is a very different format.
From other television series, you know,so it had a very different tenor, although
is seen as a competition, it was lesscompetitive than other models, right?
(22:22):
Meaning there was noelimination, nothing like that.
I mean, there are lots of waysin which we actually had a
commitment to work with the artist.
and the television producers, Smithsonianchannel to create a series that was
about being an artist and making workwith our own mission as a museum.
(22:43):
We felt like that was an importantcontribution in a very different medium.
Then we would ordinarily work.
The art
Josh Baer (22:53):
world is very conservative.
And it's really, and it's veryprudish and it hates anything new.
So it took a little bit of bravery tosay, I know we're going to take some
incoming, but there's a different point.
Melissa Chiu (23:10):
And I think for us, it wasn't for the art world.
It was for the 112 million households thatSmithsonian Channel and MTV might reach.
And this is something that I think isdifferent from perhaps a New York museum.
Our audience is this country.
And so would it not make sensefor us to then try to reach
(23:33):
audiences in their own homes?
Josh Baer (23:34):
I think we get lost into this notion that there's one art world.
The world I'm in is a really smallworld of a couple thousand people.
And most of the time you're in that world,that's where the money comes, that's where
the best art, quote unquote, is that'sreally radical and changing art history.
And then there's millions of other artistsand they're doing something different.
(23:57):
It's not worse, it's different.
And so I think you should becommended for making attempts.
Melissa Chiu (24:04):
I mean, that's for us an important piece of our work.
We want to be able to speak todifferent audiences in different ways.
And that's what a public museum is about.
That on the one hand, we cando a Tino Sehgal performance.
And on the other hand, we can,you know, show de Kooning.
(24:25):
We can have a Laurie Anderson show.
For us, it's about how do we have.
different kinds of voices, differentkinds of artworks that can somehow,
you know, cohabit within this museum.
Will Griffith (24:41):
In our final segment, Melissa considers the ways
artists have influenced the museum.
From Hiroshi Sugimoto's newsculpture garden, To Yayoi
Kusama's Infinity Mirror Rooms.
Don't transact without The Bear Faxed.
Subscribe to the Bear Faxed newsletterto receive the key developments in
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(25:05):
Plus special auction additionsdirect from the sale room.
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Josh Baer (25:21):
As a public space here, something big has gone on here
also with the sculpture garden.
Could you tell us a little bitmore about what that is, how
that was done, who organized it?
Melissa Chiu (25:31):
So the sculpture garden is a major project for all of us here.
It's been many years now in the planning.
We commissioned Hiroshi Sugimoto,who is probably best known for his
photographs and some years ago beganto design spaces and architecture.
And so we commissioned him torethink our sculpture garden and
(25:55):
to really propose what a sculpturegarden of the 21st century could be.
And that is for us a space that isdirectly located on the National Mall.
It is one that now we can, with hisdesign, have an open gallery space that is
changing for new large scale commissions.
(26:17):
There are more intimategalleries for the 20th century.
works in depth that we have by BarbaraHepworth and Henry Moore and Matisse
and others, and also performance space.
So for us, it's an important extensionof the galleries inside our museum.
So we'll be doing everything thatwe now do inside also outside.
Josh Baer (26:39):
And speaking of Sugimoto, I often tell people the best
piece of writing I've seen about,I'll use the word post war Japan,
was his essay for the Hirshhorn.
It's about a 20 page.
Essay, and it's really maybe the bestpiece of artist writing I've ever read.
So if you can find that catalog.
I don't even know where mine is, someonetook it, but it's a great, great piece.
(27:03):
And I associate the Hirshhorn withSugimoto in that piece of writing.
Yeah.
I
Melissa Chiu (27:09):
think it's important that an artist was able to rethink the
space too, because it really was aboutcreating the right environment for art,
and who better to do that than an artist.
Tell us a little
Josh Baer (27:24):
bit more about what's upcoming in exhibitions for people to
get them excited to come and visit.
So we've
Melissa Chiu (27:32):
been working these past few years with Os Gemios, who are Brazilian
twins, who began their life as graffitiartists and now, uh, creating quite
extraordinary installations, paintings,sculpture, and looking forward to working
with them in their Third floor takeoverof the museum and we're also working
(27:58):
on a commission with Adam Pendleton and
Josh Baer (28:01):
anything Way out down the line that's coming.
It's great when museums can work on ashort turnaround Which is I think a really
tough thing to stay relevant for a museumwhen it can take two three four years
to organize But sometimes you need 5 or10 years to do a Rothko show or, what's
the show I saw here, was it Yves Klein?
(28:22):
That was a tremendous show.
Yes, that was an amazing show.
I remember that.
That must have taken along time and a lot to do.
Is there anything on that level that'sFive or 10 years out that you can.
Melissa Chiu (28:36):
Five or 10 years out is the revitalization of this whole museum.
So once the sculpture garden iscomplete, then we turn our attention
to this building and SOM, the originalarchitects and Annabel Seldorf
are responsible for that redesign.
That's interior?
Interior.
So expanding the galleries, makingas much of this building as possible
(28:59):
publicly accessible and for art.
When
Josh Baer (29:02):
the demand is there, people want to come.
I mean, when you did the Kusamarooms, I mean, the attendance
must have been insane,
Melissa Chiu (29:09):
right?
So that year was anextraordinary year for us.
So we had 1.
2 million visitors and that exhibitionfor us was really a breakthrough moment.
And it's hard to imagine today becauseKusama is so much in the public sphere.
But when we embarked onthat exhibition, which had.
a focus specifically on her infinitymirrored rooms, which had not really
(29:31):
received much attention prior to that.
It was an extraordinary moment where,you know, we had lines around the
museum from 3am in the morning and
Josh Baer (29:43):
then we sent it on national tour.
I think that we were, that werealized really what the demand
for art and serious art was.
And I remember even David's WernerGallery in Chelsea, people were
waiting 6, 8, 10 hours in line.
I mean, that's terriblethat they waited so long.
But on the other hand, the factthat people wanted to, the only
place that gets a little iffy isit being set up for selfies and
(30:05):
how to get past that moment, too.
That's sort of the 2.
0 of looking
Melissa Chiu (30:10):
at art.
Well, it's somewhat ironic because herinfinity mirrored rooms are intended
to be fully immersive moments of.
in a way, not just immersion, but escape.
You're in an environmentto take you somewhere else.
So it's kind of ironic thatit became a selfie thing.
Josh Baer (30:32):
Yes, and then you had to be sort of organized.
You have 12 minutes or four minutes.
Oh, much less than that.
You know, or one minute, rather thansome people would like two minutes,
and some people would like an hour.
And that's kind of an unfortunatebyproduct of its own success.
But I think the moment here reallychanged the perception of, what the demand
(30:54):
from young people was to look at art.
So
Melissa Chiu (30:57):
it's hard to imagine, but she began to create those works in 1965.
And up until our exhibition that reallylooked at that part of her practice, they
were really always considered a sideline,you know, to her infinity net paintings.
And then I think that the kind ofcoming together of a moment of a
(31:20):
younger audience demographic beinginterested in contemporary art and
museums, along with their cell phones.
That was a whole other coalescenceof things that changed and a
whole appreciation of her workand those works in particular.
Josh Baer (31:36):
One last question that relates to something that I spoke about recently.
Um, I've been complaining thata lot of major museums don't
have artists on their board.
Now, a number of other major museums do.
It's like, how can this be 2024?
And for some institutions to thinkthat that's not something valuable.
It's like, it seemslike preposterous to me.
Melissa Chiu (31:58):
So the Hirshhorn has, uh, nearly always had
artists as board members.
And for a long time, Ann Hamilton served,um, most recently Theaster Gates, who
did so much work with us during histenure to help us to develop different
(32:18):
kinds of communities and audiences hereat the museum, whether it was through
a performance series, whether it wasthrough public programs that he did, or
even during COVID, where we co curatedan artist diary series in the First three
weeks of the COVID lockdown, we invitednearly 50 artists to send in kind of video
(32:44):
diaries almost of their life in lockdown.
And it was a wonderful kind ofpersonal, very intimate look at
what it was like to be an artist inthat particular moment in history.
But
Josh Baer (32:55):
when you're sitting at the bar at the association of art museum
directors, then somebody able toturn to one of the others says, yo.
No artists on the board, what's going on?
And do those directors say,I know, you're right, but?
Or is it just not spoken about?
Director to director.
Melissa Chiu (33:13):
I've never had a conversation like that with a director.
Maybe you should.
I mean, each to their own.
You know, I mean, everyone, each board ofeach museum has its own kind of ecosystem,
its own history, its own understanding.
And, you know, we try to do ourbest on representation on our
Josh Baer (33:34):
board.
What a great political answer, given thatwe're in the home of American politics.
With that, I say thank you,Melissa, for joining us.
Melissa Chiu (33:44):
Thank you, Josh.
Wonderful to have you here.
Will Griffith (33:50):
Thank you for listening to the Fairfax podcast.
This episode is broughtto you by David z Werner.
Our host is Josh Bearer.
Our executive producer is Lou Yang Zong.
Our content strategist is Boli Yang Shin.
I'm Will Griffith, our associate editor.
And our editing team is Mona Productions.
Subscribe today wherever you get yourpodcasts, and check back soon for future
(34:12):
episodes as we unpack the inner workingsof the global art industry through
exclusive, candid interviews with keyplayers in the business as they offer
their perspectives on art and the marketin the US, Europe, Asia, and beyond.
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