September 8, 2023 • 47 mins
For the last forty or so years, our culture—and by extension, the church and ministry world—have been obsessed with leadership. But what and where has this emphasis gotten us? Angie talks with Denver Seminary colleague and leadership expert Tim Koller about what leadership is, what has been the impact of a generation of leadership focus, and how we can course correct where we’ve gotten off-track.
Honorable Mention:
- Something’s Not Right: Decoding the Hidden Tactics of Abuse-and Freeing Yourself from Its Power by Wade Mullen.
- The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of the Learning Organization by Peter Senge.
- On Becoming a Leader by Warren Bennis.
- The Shape of Practical Theology: Empowering Ministry with Theological Praxis by Ray Anderson.
- The Scandal of Leadership: Unmasking the Powers of Domination in the Church by J.R. Woodward.
- Managing Leadership Anxiety: Yours and Theirs by Steve Cuss.
- Tim Koller on X.
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Listen to more episodes and read more of Angie's work at angiewardphd.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hi, and welcome back to The Big C Church Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Angie Ward, and, um, with me today is, uh, our guest, Dr.
Tim Koller.
I'll talk about him in a minute, but, um, Big C Church Podcast where we have challenging conversations to better the body.
Um, and we want to, by those conversations, give hope and, um, try to find some steps forward, uh, not just, uh, live in frustration.
(00:33):
Uh, like I've said before, I, I believe in the idea of the church and the potential of a church.
And so, uh, this is a place for those conversations for people who, who share that belief.
So, um, uh, Dr.
Professor Friend Tim Koller, uh, is, is with me and he is, and I had to just read just a few moments ago, read me all his titles that he had to double check on his signature line.
(00:56):
He's a colleague of mine at Denver Seminary.
I don't even know all my titles.
Uh, Tim.
So he's Associate Dean of Academic Affairs Assistant, no division, no Director of Leadership Program.
Assistant Professor of Leadership and Accreditation Liaison Officer.
But.
Really, um, he's a leadership guy, um, and a, a ministry person like I am and longtime friend, colleague, uh, student.
(01:23):
We have all sorts of threads of how we've come together and, and so, um, he and I have these kind of conversations all the time, and this time we're hitting record.
So, um, Tim, thanks for being on the podcast with me.
Yeah, as I'm so thrilled to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
It's always fun having conversations with you.
It really, like we, we do regularly say, hey, we just gotta throw a meeting on our calendar so we can talk.
(01:44):
So, yeah.
So what I wanna talk about today is, um, the kind of the franchise of leadership as it pertains to ministry and the church.
And so, um, you and I both have leadership in our professional titles.
We lead things, we teach leadership, we've done our PhDs in leadership, very similar programs.
(02:06):
Um, and in the, as you know, you and I both know, uh, in the mid 1980s, in the corporate world, there was this, um, rise of awareness and emphasis on leadership.
Tom Peters, um, uh, you know, um, Jim Collins.
Yeah.
Just name all the different, different books.
Um, and then that spilled over or flooded into church-world and ministry-world, and that's kind of when you and I, I think that's certainly when I came into it.
(02:33):
I mean, I was in college as this was just becoming a thing.
Um, and, and so that's how, what shaped my, my training, my ministry, my leadership, my understanding, my terminology, all this kind of stuff.
So I wanna talk with you about, um, kind of where that has gotten us.
But first, like, tell, tell us.
(02:54):
Tell me, tell us how did you enter into this stream? Yeah, great question.
I was 16 and I chased a girl into a youth group and found Jesus instead.
And my youth pastor at the point of my conversion, handed me a Bible and a book on leadership.
So the of scripture and Bible have just interwoven themselves throughout the entirety of my faith journey.
(03:18):
So What was the book on leadership? I wish I could remember.
I feel like it may have been like a Courageous Leadership by Bill Hybels or something like that.
like 2003, sorry, 2001.
And so it would've been something within like that Willow Creek leadership emphasis, because that was a lot of what his emphasis was since he'd go to Willow Creek Leadership Summit every single year.
(03:39):
So it was the books that had come out that year or recently.
Yep.
One of the speakers or whatever.
Something.
Yeah.
never understood the Christian faith apart from some, uh, some concept that we are called to lead.
And so you can think about like the being that emphasis of as you go make disciples.
So that going and teaching is this emphasis of having influence.
(04:04):
So I can't imagine the Christian faith apart from some understanding of claiming agency or this freedom in Christ where you're actually exercising your agency to have influence towards something.
And for us as those who are following Jesus, emphasis towards something, is this Christ-like behavior? Or if we wanna think about it in terms of, uh, God's kingdom.
(04:25):
Uh, being or as, like, think about it as like that signpost pointing toward a future heavenly reality.
So our, our influencer emphasis is, is actually going toward that stream.
Wow.
So I'm just still marveling like that.
They were so intertwined for you in the beginning cuz they weren't for me.
Like I discovered, I fell into it like, uh, when it was like in ministry school and we'll unpack you to, you turned, took a lot of, I mean, you talked a little bit already about your kind of definition, understanding of leadership and used a couple terms that, we'll, we'll un unpack in a moment, but, so you came, like, you came to Christ, into leadership at the same time you were converted basically into both.
(05:03):
And then, um, I mean I know you were a youth pastor and then obviously now you're doing higher ed and stuff, but like what are the other places kind of, that you've been involved in this kind of convergence? Yeah, I.
As a youth leader.
I mean, I at 16 went from someone who was really quite timid and afraid of the world because of childhood experiences and going, oh, there's a God who loves me and is transforming me and inviting me to join in this great mission.
(05:34):
That change to my mindset gave me the opportunity to go to school and actually think about what I'm participating in.
What kind of world am I creating by doing these kinds of behaviors.
So the sanctification process on this Christian journey was one of really thinking deeply about the impact that I'm having on those around me and how the environments I'm putting myself in are having an impact on me and my formation.
(06:02):
So that those years as a youth leader, as a, as you know, just a kid in youth group, were really substantive for me.
And even graduating high school, I took a year and sold vacuum cleaners so I could actually spend more time at my church.
My joke is, and you may have to edit this out of the podcast, but I read every book in my youth pastor's office, it didn't take that long because he went to Liberty.
(06:23):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
May have to edit that one out, but But we'll just X that part.
Yeah.
just X that part out.
But I think that's part of the, that.
That journey was the year where I wasn't going to college.
That gap year where I was just hanging around the church all the time and really reading and studying and getting to know how I'm wired and what my interests are, were really helpful.
(06:46):
And then I eventually entered into Bible college while I was at Bible college, became the youth pastor at my church when my youth pastor transitioned to another ministry assignment.
After working in that church for several years, had a bit of a crisis of faith and actually stumbled into working at a Bible college and process paperwork, that's where you and I had met.
I'm working in these spaces where I had no one reporting to me, but I'm participating in a system that is leading students towards something.
(07:13):
So I'm seeing and observing others that are in leadership roles and being I think quite vigilant in understanding the systems and the di, the dynamics, and I've always just been fascinated about how the world works.
So sitting in that space and being able to observe was really fun for me.
Now I'm obviously at Denver Seminary.
I've been on couple different boards.
I've served as elders and two different churches.
(07:34):
I've been on the board of what was called Reading Burks Conference of Churches.
They've since rebranded when I left, but it was a.
An organization that looked to serve about 440 churches in our county.
Uh, really fun environment when I was in that season.
And now I get to spend my time as a youth soccer and youth basketball coach.
So I'm a paid staff coach with Colorado Rapids Youth Soccer Club and really enjoying that time.
(07:56):
And then I volunteer as a youth basketball coach as well.
Wow.
Well, so, um, How did you, just briefly like you, at some point you went, I mean you went to Bible college, but then you went and got a Masters of Arts, which you know, which is also where we connected in leadership and then decided to pursue it as like your field, which that is even a field at a Christian university shows how far, like where we've come, uh, you know, cuz that didn't exist when I was going to seminary originally, Mm-hmm.
(08:26):
but like what led you to then kind of continue to pursue that? As like your field.
It's this curiosity of how the world works, and it was a beautiful integration of understanding psychology, organizational psychology, sociology.
There was a lot that was going into it.
Philosophy, so being able to study so broadly.
(08:50):
Was something that was very compelling for me.
I think there was also a lot of trying to figure myself out.
I'm, I'm trying to understand who, who am I? What am I good at? I've been affirmed in a number of different ways, but I don't know how to apply that.
So the opportunity to spend time considering how other people have navigated the world.
Was something that was very compelling to me.
(09:13):
So the master's degree for me was something that I am very thankful I did.
It was definitely a challenge.
It was, it was incredibly difficult, but it was also very rewarding because all the things that I'm learning about how to be a more effective leader.
to build systems and processes that are efficient and effective were immediately applicable to the environment that I was in.
(09:34):
So I'm learning and immediately able to turn around and make something better.
And I'm a huge fan of Seth Godin and so he talks about making things better by making better things.
And I felt like that was what my master's degree really empowered me to do is instead of going through as a youth pastor and just replicating what my other, my previous youth pastor had done and just keeping what he did going, it was now an opportunity to say, how do you want to construct the world? How do you want to make things better? So it really ingrained in me this developmental process that you can actually improve and also make things better.
(10:08):
When the opportunity came for me to apply for a position on the faculty side of the institution that I was working for, it required that I would go into a PhD program in that season of life when I was.
with this Reading Burks Conference of Churches as a board member, there was a lot of challenges that churches in our county were facing and the organization itself that it was facing.
(10:31):
The opportunity to move into a space to continue making things better was so compelling that I needed to get into and pursue a doctoral degree.
And part of that was in leadership spaces.
Some people have positions.
As a someone who has a position, they have authority over how something is going to go.
But if that individual is not pursuing their own growth and development, it will actually stagnate the organization.
(10:57):
So to join in with a group of doctoral students, similar to the master's program where they're all dedicated to improving themselves so that we can make things better, conversations were some of the most stimulating I've ever had.
So the emph.
I wanna be in a group of people who are thinking deeply about these things.
Yeah.
Cool.
And we've, you and I have talked about how we've missed that, uh, and that's one of the reasons I think we enjoy doing that.
(11:21):
It's kind of a little microcosm of what we had in those, those environments.
You talked about, I mean, you've, um, raised a couple of concepts and terms already.
I wanna I unpack a little bit more like you've talked, you talked about, um, having influence, you, you've talked about the opportunity to be a change agent or having agency and shaping things and, um, followers.
(11:43):
So, and you and I have gone back and forth like you're help, we're shaping each other's understanding and definition of leadership.
So where are you at in your definition or understanding of it with, you know, putting all those things together.
You don't have to say the, I'm not grading you anymore for papers, so, That's a relief.
yeah.
Yeah.
There are a number of leadership definitions out there, and sometimes they're describing and defining a leader.
(12:07):
Sometimes they're describing leadership as a concept that happens that is applicable to leaders or organizations.
Mm-hmm.
So the terms are all kind of squishy and and then there's management in there.
Right.
You know, too, so, yeah.
people like Cotter or Bennis who have hard distinctions between managers and leaders, and is, it is a very muddled field and a lot of it is built on, built upon people's experiences.
(12:32):
So in my experience, this is what a leader did.
This is what they said, this is how they behaved.
there are these emphases of leadership as behavior.
Leadership as position leadership as influence.
If you want to go to the John Maxwell, like leadership is influence.
Nothing Mm-hmm.
I'm a huge fan of thinking of leadership as a co-created process, Yeah.
(12:53):
is a relationship between leader and follower and there is no leadership unless there are followers.
So it is a co-created process.
You're negotiating constantly with those who may be following you and that.
Interaction will shape the kind of leadership that is created.
So there's no possibility of leadership unless there's the ability to have that co-created process that you're actually negotiating it together its darkest, we can think of leadership as, um, only what followers will allow.
(13:27):
So leaders can only get away with what followers will allow, and that's where our friend Wade Mullen and his work on Impression Management strategies really highlights the need for followers to take ownership of the influence that they have.
And I believe even it's even more calling and leaders to integrity than trying to put something on followers.
But I think for me, it really emphasizes that this co-createdness of leadership is something that we need to continue to understand.
(13:53):
How is that relationship being shaped, is the ongoing relationship? Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
All sorts of thoughts about that.
Yeah.
Yeah, so like the co-created process, I think is the, is the, really the foundation of it, but it's a co-created process of using power to influence people, to movement toward a vision.
So I that's long, but it's using power and the reason I highlight using power.
(14:18):
Yeah.
it's understood that there is a power dynamic, that there is some base of power.
So there are two researchers, French and Raven, who in 1959 and then 1965 wrote out a definition of these bases of social power.
Those are always operating we're in any relationship, we don't have the language always, but we know it.
(14:39):
So when you study it, you go, oh, that's why I felt that way when that person did those things.
So process of using power to influence people to movement toward a vision.
So it's always with people.
There's always some sort of change or movement toward a vision.
There's always something you're aiming for, and the most insidious kinds of leadership are the ones where the vision hasn't been properly defined or articulated.
(15:02):
So all of a sudden you find that you've been going in a direction, but no one's actually said what the direction is.
But we all sort of implicitly know this is the direction we're heading.
Then you come to an awareness and go, is this the direction that we should be going and want to be going? Yeah.
view leadership as just always happening.
It's just a matter of how aware or not are we of what is happening.
(15:22):
Yeah, I always say like, I mean, we all have, influences matter how, how intentionally we're stewarding that and in what direction and to what, you know, that that movement and vision and yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, our mutual friend Matt Tebbe, um, was on the podcast, uh, and we were talking about, uh, the power dynamics of, of, uh, pastors and, um, and I know you're, you know, when we talk about power, it's such a loaded term.
(15:47):
Uh, which by the way was another conversation, uh, we had on the podcast about that, you know, and, and, um, but, uh, so power's just a reality.
It's not, I just wanna, you know, point out, you and I are both from the perspective that power's a reality, not.
Power is not inherently, Good or bad, it's just a reality.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In that.
Yeah.
(16:07):
Well, so we've been immersed in this world.
We've studied, we have PhDs in leadership.
So I mean, and I tell people like I know a lot about it that doesn't automatically make me a better leader.
Um, and when we've seen, we've been in admin, we've been in ministry world, we've watched and taught and, and led in all this world.
So we've seen.
(16:29):
Head, you know, we, we see the headlines, we've lived the things that made the news.
Um, so what are the good and bad things that about where we're at now in church and ministry world from this 40 year now emphasis on leadership.
(16:50):
Yeah, that's a great question.
One of the things we must reckon with is our desire have someone tell us with great confidence, that if you do these things, everything will be all right.
Hmm.
have such a desire for someone to pacify our anxiety we will cling to certainty, even when it's not wise to clinging to that individual or if it's not possible to have certainty in those areas.
(17:21):
We are always dealing with the uncertainty of a life that has been plagued with sin.
So we don't know if today is the last day that we have.
We can't guarantee that we're not going to get into a car accident or be diagnosed with something, and we are looking for someone who can give us this confidence, this strength.
Rather than look to Jesus for that, we begin to look to a human for it.
(17:44):
And when we start to put humans in the place of Jesus, we've created idolatry.
And it can lead to really dramatic impact.
Because what we do in leadership, especially as followers in that co-created process, is we're giving of ourselves to trust that the vision that we've agreed to is being held to with integrity by everyone in the process, the followers and the leader.
(18:05):
So we're entrusting to this leader.
Some amount of authority, whether that be a position or merely just, uh, like a reference power where I'm idolizing you.
I'm, I'm looking up to you, I'm respecting you.
In doing that, we're entrusting part of ourselves to that individual we do that to a significant degree where those individuals become those who are no longer to be engaged in a co-created process like they're untouchable.
(18:32):
You can't question them, you can't challenge them.
Yeah.
losing that transparency, now we're moving into some very dangerous spaces.
And in the United States of America, there are these laws, um, or, or lack of laws where, for example, churches don't have to file a, any kind of paperwork with the IRS to disclose with transparency who the top-paid employees are or what their finances are, whereas every other nonprofit has to do that.
(18:59):
There's this bit of secrecy that can get woven into the church world where there's this subtle, it may not always be articulated, but it's often felt where you can't question them because they've been appointed by God to be the leader of this community, and therefore, you as a follower, you have no right to question anything that they do.
(19:20):
And I think that moves us into some very, very dangerous spaces.
And quite frankly, it ignores the priesthood of believers that we are being invited into inside the New Testament.
So the New Covenant is really this beautiful invitation for us to be part of this shared community.
So you can think of like a Dan White Jr.
and J.R.
Woodward and the work they're doing through V3 Church Planning, where they're trying to help us understand what a mutuality in leadership looks like, what a shared leadership is.
(19:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
avoid those pitfalls.
Where we're putting people up on a pedestal and saying, you are the, the anointed leader who can unquestioningly be doing this work.
Instead, we need to move to a model of leadership that is a shared leadership that is transparent where there is vulnerability and we are in encouraging one another to be in growth and in community together.
(20:08):
So we're learning how to improve one another and improve what we're doing together.
But when you talk about shared, I'm hearing, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm hearing, um, not just shared among the top, but shared among, uh, a shared understanding among leaders and followers as well.
Is that correct? Yes, absolutely.
That leaders and followers are actually, this co-created idea, like we are building this thing together.
(20:33):
There's this ongoing invitation.
It's almost as though every day you're waking up and you have breath and you're being invited into doing this work together.
And so it's continually checking in on we, are we still on this together? Are we still working on this together? it would require us to be more transparent.
To slow down and have more communication and it would require us to be in relationship.
(20:55):
And we get frustrated because relationships don't always feel scalable, Yeah.
Credibility and trust are at the foundation of any leadership attempt.
Yeah.
as we begin to get impatient as leaders, as soon as the fruit of the spirit are no longer the metric with which we're understanding whether we're progressing in the Christian life, when we begin to lose track of what we're being invited into in this great story of God.
(21:20):
The fruit of the spirit should be the metric, and it should actually cause us lean in on those relationships to a much greater degree.
So move slower.
Operate with transparency and vulnerability, appropriate vulnerability.
Have communication so that you're continuing to build trust with those that you're co-creating this leadership with.
(21:41):
Wow.
Um, so how much, I mean, you, you are raising more than I think I've heard elsewhere about kind of the follow that, that co-creating piece, first of all.
Right? So that, that piece.
Um, and, but there's also I think a systems systemic piece.
Like the assumptions that we bring in, like you said, like, I mean, uh, because we've, we've known and seen and read about, you know, people who are followers who try to raise the questions and try to make it a co-created kind of thing or whatever.
(22:14):
And there's, there's sometimes there's systems where the assumptions are, uh, no.
Stay in your lane, stay in your place.
There is this elevating kind of thing like where those types of systems, where do you, where do we start with those types of environments? You know, if we start from scratch, we can say, sure, we're gonna start with this, co-created v, all those great, which are great, but then I just look around and see so many where we've, we've gotten it wrong and need to course correct.
(22:44):
Absolutely.
The beginning of this is to begin establishing trust.
So some of us want to be prophetic voices, but we haven't done the work to establish trust and to communicate how we are on mission.
And that's not to say that anyone who is, communicating that things can be made better.
(23:05):
They're not the problem.
But sometimes in our impatience we have these knee jerk reactions where we are having really significant, we're levying significant judgments against others.
So we come out thinking, we're speaking this truth, this prophetic voice.
actually the emotion that we're bringing into it is what's contagious.
(23:25):
So emotions are always, Underlying the surface, so I'm communicating something to you, but the emotions I'm bringing in are actually causing the individual to be receptive to what's coming or to rejecting it.
So assuming the person you're talking to is someone who wants to operate with integrity, who wants to be able to engage in a co-created process of leadership, assuming that they want to be.
(23:49):
Getting better, then we can engage with them in a way that says, with you, I'm for you.
I'm for the mission that we have together, and can we have a conversation about how we might be able to do that better? So assuming the person can be engaged in that way.
Then we can begin to open up those conversations about where we might be falling short of the ideal for what leadership can be.
(24:13):
Now, if the leader you're working with is someone who, when you attempt to build relationships and to have trust, continues to reject that space.
That is far more problematic and far contextual.
Like what are they, the senior leader, is there a board? What are the peer relationships that that individual has? What are the peer relationships you have? So you start to have to do a bit of a mapping of the various relationships and the various qualities of relationships that are happening within that system.
(24:43):
Because if that person who is leading is not leading with integrity, they're going to have built around them, very likely systems that have perpetuated the lack of integrity and protect them from accountability.
So bringing accountability to a leader who doesn't want accountability is very challenging and very contextual.
Well, so I've also seen, um, followers or members of an organization who they, they, they don't want the response, responsibility of followership.
(25:15):
Maybe, maybe this is an article we need to write, like, because I've just seen people who they want a king.
I've, I've just now, just in this conversation with you, just raising that, that idea of the, of a responsibility of followership, not just responsibly of leaders.
I think we, we've put so much historically on the leader, still too much responsibility.
(25:37):
Um, and I know people, I've just been in churches where they go, I.
I trust you.
I, I, I want to, I'm going to abdicate yes.
to you.
Um, even sometimes when the leader is saying, I want to invite you, and he says, no, no, no.
I don't want to have that responsibility.
So, and I think the worst systems are where you have leaders who don't want accountability and followers who don't want responsibility.
(26:02):
Absolutely.
a very good insight, and there are followers that are saying, I'm coming to you because you provide me security.
You provide me comfort.
And for leader who has these like clingy followers, these, these dependent followers.
The work of differentiation of self will be vital that you're actually creating environments where that person can continue to feel safe, but also being challenged to work on their own differentiation, lacking differentiation.
(26:32):
Those followers will always be incredibly dependent upon the leader, and really what will end up happening is as soon as that leader is no longer able to provide the comfort and the safety that the follower wants.
The follower is going to get angry and turn on them.
So they're actually gonna begin to sabotage or villainize the leader.
And that's where in our relationship, in this co-created process, of our conversation with followers really needs to be.
(26:57):
Their own growth and development so that they are less dependent Yeah.
as a leader.
So for example, when I bring on a new employee and I'm working with them, one of the first things that I state is we are all only here for a season.
None of us have our eternal destiny in these roles at this institution.
Yeah.
What does my growth and your growth look like? So I'm inviting you to come and give me feedback.
(27:20):
At any point.
I'm inviting you to help me get better as a leader and as a person who has these responsibilities in the institution.
So you're not gonna offend me if you come and say, hey Tim, I feel like these are things that are gaps in your leadership or in your competence.
I wanted you to be aware of that.
And that also then creates the opportunity that they may say to me, I would love to have your feedback on how I can improve in my relationships, in my competence, in my role.
(27:47):
And so we just from the outset, create this expectation that we're all only here for a season.
And how in this season am I going to continue to improve and to get better? But I think that's a responsibility the leader has to highlight that perhaps some of the people we're bringing on, might have unrealistic expectations of leaders.
(28:07):
So I remember some years ago, I don't remember where I saw this, but I remember Nadia Boles Weber had this thing that she did when she would bring on new members to her church where she would say, I'm the pastor here.
I'm going to disappoint you.
I'm going to let you down.
So from the outset, she just provided this, I'm a human, I'm, I'm not gonna be perfect.
And if you're looking for the perfect leader, I'm not going to be it.
(28:29):
And I think there's something healthy in that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm thinking sometimes they, I, I mean, we've both been in positions I think where people have turned on us and gotten angry or uh, and either tried to sabotage or just left Mm-hmm.
they could find it elsewhere.
and I've been in that person.
I been that person Yeah, me too. 311 00:28:48,322.5 --> 00:28:52,020 differentiated I villainized a leader Yeah.
(28:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, let's talk a little bit, I, because I, you know, I've had the privilege and it really has been of, of walking with you for many years now, and we've gotten to see how our thinking and just how we've developed personally, not just our thoughts about leadership, but I know there was a time, uh, earlier in your time at Denver Seminary where a, a former colleague challenged you to deepen your theology of leadership.
(29:18):
Like that was something.
I don't know about you, but in my training it, there wasn't, I had systematic theology and then I had leadership classes.
Correct.
have theology of leadership or all these things.
We're talking about power and accountability and relationship and you know, community, all that kind of stuff.
Share a little bit about how that's, if you're willing to share about that conversation, but just how that has inserted another dynamic that you, I think you were bringing such a, uh, so many great thoughts that just the overall leadership conversation about the gap in a theology of leadership.
(29:53):
Absolutely, and you're right in, in my experience, going through Bible college, a master's degree, and then the PhD, they were, in essence two different disciplines that maybe had something to share with one another, but I don't know that the integration of the two was encouraged to a significant degree, and if it had been encouraged.
(30:14):
I don't know that I, I recognized that I wasn't doing a deeper integration that was available to me.
I think there were attempts to, not proof text, but I did, I think, default to proof texting.
I could think of specific assignments where, uh, a, uh, professor, uh, had said in essence, like, go through the book of Proverbs and make any notes for these management principles.
(30:37):
Yeah, I had that.
Yeah, I remember that assignment, Nehemiah.
Really? Right.
You know, it's like a great one for management.
Right.
And so you're, you're sort of held up as like, just go find in the Bible justification for what you're already doing.
Find justification for what the social theory already offers.
Or apply it to Jesus.
Right.
And so it's like that was the other one.
(30:59):
yes, always.
And I found that when I came to Denver Seminary particularly, I did have a colleague of mine who began to really challenge that you are operating with these two tracks and you've learned how to run the train down those tracks.
But rather than have them as distinct disciplines, what does it look like when you begin to integrate them and not just prove text, but actually begin to integrate them? And that work has been, has been really fun, nece, uh, to be honest.
(31:27):
mean, I've uncovered theologians that have also written things on leadership that I had never been exposed to.
So people like Ray Anderson who had been at Fuller Seminary during the, I think his seventies, eighties, and nineties, uh, he was doing some really creative work thinking about how eschatology should inform our ministry Yeah.
Yeah.
was like, oh, this is fascinating stuff.
So these last few years have been one of, of growth for me in that area.
(31:52):
My emphasis currently has been thinking through the fourfold, uh, that where we're able to actually go, like the grand narrative should shape our leadership practice.
So in my, in my following Jesus, my understanding of, of.
mission of God was, I'm a sinner in need of a savior, and that was the entirety of what my Christian faith was.
(32:12):
I'm going to go, I'm going to take my, survey instrument to the mall and I'm going to say, will you take a survey? And my was to trick them into me being able to, uh, present the gospel to them of, need of a savior.
Now I look at it and say, with this idea of a grand narrative, the creation fall, redemption and restoration, those bookends of creation and restoration, in addition to fall and redemption, that these four things are actually necessary because there's actually two chapters in the Bible before sin enters the world.
(32:45):
And so when we think about what's going on in Genesis one and two, and particularly in Genesis two 15, there's these Hebrew words of and shamar.
And this idea of to, uh, to, to create and to cultivate or to guard and celebrate.
Like there are these words of before sin has entered the world, humans were made for these things understand being made in the image of God and what we've been commissioned to do from the beginning.
(33:14):
Is really quite helpful.
And then especially when we think about this restoration of all things these bookends actually inform our leadership practice.
So right now, when I think about leadership, think of us as a signpost pointing toward a future heavenly reality that the work that we are doing here and now our leadership practice should be conducted in a way that points toward that future heavenly reality.
(33:36):
And we do so through understanding the person of Jesus through the fruit of the spirit.
These are things that should be, uh, something we're regularly simmering on and thinking about and being shaped by cultivating our emotions so that we are in line with the way of Jesus and the fruit of the spirit.
So this theological journey for me has been one that has invited me to bring my emotions to the table as well, because I can prove text that the thing I did was appropriate cause the person I was interacting with was a fool.
(34:02):
So it was appropriate for me to be harsh with them.
Right.
But I did it in such a way that I actually had anger toward the person, and Jesus told me that I'm actually murdering that person.
I'm violating this relationship.
So when I actually hold up, not just a faith statement, but the emotions that are driving my behavior, this whole inner world that I've too often neglected, I begin to hold that up against the person of Jesus, now I begin to recognize my need for Jesus, 'cause it's for me to sign the faith statement.
(34:35):
it is very difficult for me to recognize that my functional theology is very deficient.
It is not living up to the faith statement I claim to to abide Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
Such good stuff.
Um, yeah.
I'm thinking like, do you have.
Hope.
I, I feel like we're, um, the pandemic, certainly kinda the, the, the church is in decline, right? Like by any measure as far as the historical understanding that we've brought in for the last several hundred years is in decline, I should say.
(35:09):
The, we know from scripture and from G God's purpose for the church that, I mean, it's gonna prevail.
So, um, But I think we're ask, people are asking good and hard questions about how do we get here and what has this gotten for us and what course corrections do we need to make.
(35:30):
Um, the, I think the best and deepest questions are not just about structure or prac, I mean just kind of external practice, but like really these types of foundational questions.
Um, Um, I have hope.
I think because I'm see because things, some things are being dismantled that I think need to be dismantled and people are starting to have these questions.
(35:53):
Are you feeling hope or, and, and what do you think are some next steps? Big C Church.
Yeah, Big C Church.
I love that question.
I do find myself.
At times having cynicism.
I think that's part of my default setting Yeah.
to have been with me throughout much of my life.
And it's easy, it's safe, it's easy to be cynical and sarcastic about things, but I was challenged by a mentor couple years ago.
(36:20):
Romans 15:13.
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
So if I'm to understand Romans 15:13 as something that applies to me today, I'm to overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
And it comes through trusting in God.
Hmm.
indicated, the, the gates of hell will not prevail.
(36:42):
And we know that the church will continue to persevere.
And though there are specific iterations of church that will close, specific locales will have their churches closed down globally, the church will never end.
So when we think about Big C Church, my hope would be.
That we begin to move toward this priesthood of all believers that we're actually being invited in as these ambassadors of Christ that he who knew no sin became sin so that we could become the righteousness of God.
(37:09):
And now we go out as the righteousness of God.
And in that mission, we are actually.
Converting people, not through necessarily all of these, uh, brilliant cogent arguments for the Christian faith, but, but also this integrity with which we live that is going, why is this person operating with hope? So when we think about us being in the community and operating with hope, it can be a transformative experience.
(37:35):
I told you at the outset that I was coaching youth sports Yeah.
can be in such a negative environment with parents and, and players and coaches who are negative and and just mean and angry.
And when you show up into a space like that with integrity and hope, it can be a transformative experience.
So my hope would be that we begin to recognize that the mission of God is not just aspiring for everyone to go become a vocational minister somewhere, but instead the awareness that God has placed you in a location right now and the mission of God can be fulfilled and the location that you are right now.
(38:16):
So I think it moves us from this grass is greener, I'll serve Jesus better when I have that job or that position to right now.
How do I faithfully follow Jesus? How do I use the influence and the gifts and the skills that he's given me? To continue developing those gifts and skills so I can more competently serve the environments he's calling me in to serve, but also to just, I think it brings almost color to the environments moving from like a black and white and a gray to this colored environment where you're going, oh, there is beauty even here.
(38:49):
There is hope even here.
That's not to say that Christian life will not have suffering.
We know that suffering is part of the Christian life, but to do suffering well.
Through the hope that is available to us in the Holy Spirit, I think is a beautiful aspiration for us and something that is available to us.
would be my hope for the church Big C Church.
Go out with hope to fulfill the mission of God.
(39:11):
Hmm.
Well, and I'm kinda thinking through what you were saying about just coming with a grand narrative perspective as, as opposed to just kind of a getting to people to cross a line kind of thing.
I mean, it just reframes the how of all that, um, rootedness and stuff, and the phrase that came to my mind was, um, from using leadership as a lever, like, or just a series of levers that you can flip switches for these desired outcomes, um, you know, a mechanistic view kind thing, uh, for certain results to a lifestyle within that grand narrative.
(39:46):
Absolutely.
It's almost as though we're moving from gimmicks and manipulation formation and presence that we are invested in our formation, our Christ-like formation, and the presence that we have, being more attentive to the presence inside of this community and being attentive to the movement of the Holy Spirit within those communities.
(40:07):
So rather than, the lever and the manipulation, and how can I more eloquently to convince people to come over to my understanding and my ideas? It's actually recognizing that the Holy Spirit is active in doing work and, and the Holy Spirit is the one who will convert.
So my job is to be present to what is God doing in this space at this time.
(40:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's not in many books right now.
That's not in many leadership books.
There's a few starting to ask.
There are some that are, that are cropping up and it's exciting to see those.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
That's great.
What, uh, you know, we've listed a bunch of different, uh, and named just a bunch of different thinkers, authors, resources, um, and, uh, for every episode we also do like show notes where I do links, so, um, any ones that particularly have shaped your thinking that you want me to throw on this list with a link and, and, and that you would recommend to me? First of all, like when we get together, our Amazon, our, our wishlist get bigger and bigger every time.
(41:05):
I mean, we cost each other a lot of money.
So, Yes.
you, I mean you mentioned Ray Anderson, or you mentioned some others, but like, um, what have been some foundational, uh, readings or resources for you in this entire journey? Yeah, that's a great question.
I recently rediscovered Warren Bennis' On Becoming a Leader.
(41:26):
Uh, a book that was written in the 1980s uh, I don't remember.
I.
Much from it.
I don't use it in a lot of my classes, but as I've been going back through it, I'm discovering how much it has shaped my understanding of leadership 'cause he's inviting us into becoming whole integrated beings.
Oh wow.
I didn't That's before his time.
I mean, he was, he was before the time on that stuff 'cause it was so much practice based.
(41:50):
And that is what is fascinating.
He's actually really arguing and making a strong argument for how much we have to unlearn and especially the things we've learned from culture that are not accurate and true.
So that on becoming a leader was surprising how far.
It was what our needs were as opposed to just parroting what was being said at that time.
So Warren Bennis On Becoming a Leader was a, I, I was surprised how much I enjoyed that one.
(42:14):
It's dated, but it's because of when it was published.
I think it's a fascinating artifact.
Yeah.
but yeah, Ray Anderson, his, his works, uh, we use a book called Minding God's Business is great.
it's It's not one that you're gonna pick up and just be like, oh, this is like easy to read.
It's, it's it, it's good.
yeah.
I felt when I read it, cuz I know, you know, or some of our DMin courses use it and so like you said, I was.
(42:38):
I was like, what's all the fuss about? You know? And then I was like, oh, this is gonna take me a lot longer.
Oh, this is really, cuz I just, it really was a re uh, you know, a paradigm shift.
Mm-hmm.
That's, yeah, absolutely.
Um, actually, you got me to read a book, uh, called The Fifth Discipline by Peter Sang, Yeah, yeah.
about twelve years ago.
Yeah.
(42:58):
That book was fascinating.
To begin thinking about how everything is, is connected to one another.
This, this massive interconnectedness that was a, a very helpful resource for me.
Um, I really love the work that, um, J.R.
Woodward and Dan White Jr.
are doing at V3 Church Planning.
Dan's book, love, Love Over Fear was fantastic.
Subterranean was another one of his that was very impactful for me when I was in, in church ministry to think through some of these undercurrents that I had not been aware of.
(43:26):
I know I'm gonna miss some, but, um, anxiety, Steve Cuss is like top-notch out there.
I'm repping Steve's, uh, work with one of these, these mugs right here cuz There you go.
what he's doing.
There you go.
yeah, I know there's so many, it's almost hard Yeah.
Well, and I haven't read Woodward's new one.
I mean, as we're recording this, Eric Woodward's just come out.
(43:46):
Do you have it right there for display? leadership.
It's Yes.
Okay.
I, I mean, it is on my list.
Uh, and it's, you know, it's probably in the, within the next couple months I'll be getting to it, hopefully in the next month or so, but yeah.
Yeah.
it's definitely worth reading.
I mean, it is a doctoral dissertation, so it, it is Oh, that's what it was.
Yeah.
Okay.
it's thick, I know it's robust.
you're gonna fly through, but it great.
(44:09):
He do, he's doing some really great work integrating theology of power Great.
we understand leadership.
So J.R.
I think is doing some fantastic work.
Good.
That's great.
That's great.
Um, on a personal note, what's I, um, what's bringing you life this summer? We're recording this actually in, um, early July.
Um, so, and I think you're done coaching for now.
(44:31):
I know that's very life giving for you.
You're in kind of off season right now, but um, yeah, what fun stuff is bringing you life We are off season, but on Thursday nights we run a pickup soccer game for, uh, kids in the, in the age groups that I coach.
And so I just set up portable goals and the kids come out and it's been really fun actually, cuz it's like not.
You don't have to do it right.
I'm just saying, hey, I'm gonna up goals.
(44:53):
I'm gonna create a space where kids can come keep playing soccer through the summer and meeting parents and talking to them on the sidelines while the kids are out.
Having fun is one of those things that's very life-giving for me.
Um, my wife and I enjoy getting out and walking on trails together and just having time.
The kids are also enjoying that with us.
So getting out on mountain bike rides together just experiencing these things has been really good.
(45:15):
Uh, beauty of, I mean, you and I live in Colorado.
We have the opportunity to be outside quite regularly and find fresh air to be great.
Um, I was just back on the East Coast for a couple weeks and even then being outside into to nature and just being able to breathe, breathe, that outdoor air is something that is.
Always restorative to me.
finding myself enjoying water sports, like getting out and like doing a standup paddle board or a kayak.
(45:38):
Like those things are great and just continuing to read and journal is also where I just enjoy being able to have that introvert time where I can on things and not just think about content, but like, what does this mean for me? What is going on in my interior world? So those, those places where God meets me.
those places that are giving me this deep and abiding joy that I don't know that I've had access to, uh, in previous seasons of life because of unhealthy coping mechanisms and on my own part.
(46:08):
So Yeah.
been fortunate to be in a season of life where we are able to enjoy a lot of the goodness of God.
That's awesome.
That's so great.
It is great.
And, um, yeah, so thanks for letting us, uh, let me hit record on the stuff that we get to talk about all the time.
I mean, we, I've told you this, but I'll tell you on the air.
(46:28):
I mean, it's just such a privilege to be able to work together.
Um, you know, from when we met, uh, at another institution.
A while ago now, I mean close 15 years or 15 or 16 years.
And, um, and now to work together here, it is just really fun to, to have someone to walk with and to, um, not just conversations, but to see how we're continuing to grow and stuff.
(46:50):
So, It's so fun and it's such a joy to be able to do the work together.
So we'll just make a plug for, if you're looking to do theological education, master's programs and doctoral programs are at Denver Seminary.
Right.
Yeah.
And you can come and have these conversations on a regular basis.
For real.
Yeah.
Life giving stuff.
in the spaces we're in, is we get to learn from our students.
They're brilliant and doing so many great things, and to of those learning communities is just such a delight.
(47:16):
yep.
Yep.
So y'all come join us.
We have a good time.
We're doing good stuff.
Thanks for inviting me, Angie.
It's always fun to have conversations.
Yeah.
Ditto.
Thank you. 542 00:47:26,1.9732461 --> 00:47:27,541.9732461 Hey friend, thanks for joining me today. 543 00:47:28,321.9732461 --> 00:47:39,901.9732461 If you've liked this episode, I'd encourage you to share it with a friend or a fellow ministry leader, and if you enjoy the Big C Church podcast, I'd be grateful if you would go to wherever you listen to podcast and leave a positive review. 544 00:47:39,901.9732461 --> 00:47:41,101.9732461 Thanks so much for listening.
Hi, and welcome back to The Big C Church Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Angie Ward, and, um, with me today is, uh, our guest, Dr.
Tim Koller.
I'll talk about him in a minute, but, um, Big C Church Podcast where we have challenging conversations to better the body.
Um, and we want to, by those conversations, give hope and, um, try to find some steps forward, uh, not just, uh, live in frustration.
(00:33):
Uh, like I've said before, I, I believe in the idea of the church and the potential of a church.
And so, uh, this is a place for those conversations for people who, who share that belief.
So, um, uh, Dr.
Professor Friend Tim Koller, uh, is, is with me and he is, and I had to just read just a few moments ago, read me all his titles that he had to double check on his signature line.
(00:56):
He's a colleague of mine at Denver Seminary.
I don't even know all my titles.
Uh, Tim.
So he's Associate Dean of Academic Affairs Assistant, no division, no Director of Leadership Program.
Assistant Professor of Leadership and Accreditation Liaison Officer.
But.
Really, um, he's a leadership guy, um, and a, a ministry person like I am and longtime friend, colleague, uh, student.
(01:23):
We have all sorts of threads of how we've come together and, and so, um, he and I have these kind of conversations all the time, and this time we're hitting record.
So, um, Tim, thanks for being on the podcast with me.
Yeah, as I'm so thrilled to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
It's always fun having conversations with you.
It really, like we, we do regularly say, hey, we just gotta throw a meeting on our calendar so we can talk.
(01:44):
So, yeah.
So what I wanna talk about today is, um, the kind of the franchise of leadership as it pertains to ministry and the church.
And so, um, you and I both have leadership in our professional titles.
We lead things, we teach leadership, we've done our PhDs in leadership, very similar programs.
(02:06):
Um, and in the, as you know, you and I both know, uh, in the mid 1980s, in the corporate world, there was this, um, rise of awareness and emphasis on leadership.
Tom Peters, um, uh, you know, um, Jim Collins.
Yeah.
Just name all the different, different books.
Um, and then that spilled over or flooded into church-world and ministry-world, and that's kind of when you and I, I think that's certainly when I came into it.
(02:33):
I mean, I was in college as this was just becoming a thing.
Um, and, and so that's how, what shaped my, my training, my ministry, my leadership, my understanding, my terminology, all this kind of stuff.
So I wanna talk with you about, um, kind of where that has gotten us.
But first, like, tell, tell us.
(02:54):
Tell me, tell us how did you enter into this stream? Yeah, great question.
I was 16 and I chased a girl into a youth group and found Jesus instead.
And my youth pastor at the point of my conversion, handed me a Bible and a book on leadership.
So the of scripture and Bible have just interwoven themselves throughout the entirety of my faith journey.
(03:18):
So What was the book on leadership? I wish I could remember.
I feel like it may have been like a Courageous Leadership by Bill Hybels or something like that.
like 2003, sorry, 2001.
And so it would've been something within like that Willow Creek leadership emphasis, because that was a lot of what his emphasis was since he'd go to Willow Creek Leadership Summit every single year.
(03:39):
So it was the books that had come out that year or recently.
Yep.
One of the speakers or whatever.
Something.
Yeah.
never understood the Christian faith apart from some, uh, some concept that we are called to lead.
And so you can think about like the being that emphasis of as you go make disciples.
So that going and teaching is this emphasis of having influence.
(04:04):
So I can't imagine the Christian faith apart from some understanding of claiming agency or this freedom in Christ where you're actually exercising your agency to have influence towards something.
And for us as those who are following Jesus, emphasis towards something, is this Christ-like behavior? Or if we wanna think about it in terms of, uh, God's kingdom.
(04:25):
Uh, being or as, like, think about it as like that signpost pointing toward a future heavenly reality.
So our, our influencer emphasis is, is actually going toward that stream.
Wow.
So I'm just still marveling like that.
They were so intertwined for you in the beginning cuz they weren't for me.
Like I discovered, I fell into it like, uh, when it was like in ministry school and we'll unpack you to, you turned, took a lot of, I mean, you talked a little bit already about your kind of definition, understanding of leadership and used a couple terms that, we'll, we'll un unpack in a moment, but, so you came, like, you came to Christ, into leadership at the same time you were converted basically into both.
(05:03):
And then, um, I mean I know you were a youth pastor and then obviously now you're doing higher ed and stuff, but like what are the other places kind of, that you've been involved in this kind of convergence? Yeah, I.
As a youth leader.
I mean, I at 16 went from someone who was really quite timid and afraid of the world because of childhood experiences and going, oh, there's a God who loves me and is transforming me and inviting me to join in this great mission.
(05:34):
That change to my mindset gave me the opportunity to go to school and actually think about what I'm participating in.
What kind of world am I creating by doing these kinds of behaviors.
So the sanctification process on this Christian journey was one of really thinking deeply about the impact that I'm having on those around me and how the environments I'm putting myself in are having an impact on me and my formation.
(06:02):
So that those years as a youth leader, as a, as you know, just a kid in youth group, were really substantive for me.
And even graduating high school, I took a year and sold vacuum cleaners so I could actually spend more time at my church.
My joke is, and you may have to edit this out of the podcast, but I read every book in my youth pastor's office, it didn't take that long because he went to Liberty.
(06:23):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
May have to edit that one out, but But we'll just X that part.
Yeah.
just X that part out.
But I think that's part of the, that.
That journey was the year where I wasn't going to college.
That gap year where I was just hanging around the church all the time and really reading and studying and getting to know how I'm wired and what my interests are, were really helpful.
(06:46):
And then I eventually entered into Bible college while I was at Bible college, became the youth pastor at my church when my youth pastor transitioned to another ministry assignment.
After working in that church for several years, had a bit of a crisis of faith and actually stumbled into working at a Bible college and process paperwork, that's where you and I had met.
I'm working in these spaces where I had no one reporting to me, but I'm participating in a system that is leading students towards something.
(07:13):
So I'm seeing and observing others that are in leadership roles and being I think quite vigilant in understanding the systems and the di, the dynamics, and I've always just been fascinated about how the world works.
So sitting in that space and being able to observe was really fun for me.
Now I'm obviously at Denver Seminary.
I've been on couple different boards.
I've served as elders and two different churches.
(07:34):
I've been on the board of what was called Reading Burks Conference of Churches.
They've since rebranded when I left, but it was a.
An organization that looked to serve about 440 churches in our county.
Uh, really fun environment when I was in that season.
And now I get to spend my time as a youth soccer and youth basketball coach.
So I'm a paid staff coach with Colorado Rapids Youth Soccer Club and really enjoying that time.
(07:56):
And then I volunteer as a youth basketball coach as well.
Wow.
Well, so, um, How did you, just briefly like you, at some point you went, I mean you went to Bible college, but then you went and got a Masters of Arts, which you know, which is also where we connected in leadership and then decided to pursue it as like your field, which that is even a field at a Christian university shows how far, like where we've come, uh, you know, cuz that didn't exist when I was going to seminary originally, Mm-hmm.
(08:26):
but like what led you to then kind of continue to pursue that? As like your field.
It's this curiosity of how the world works, and it was a beautiful integration of understanding psychology, organizational psychology, sociology.
There was a lot that was going into it.
Philosophy, so being able to study so broadly.
(08:50):
Was something that was very compelling for me.
I think there was also a lot of trying to figure myself out.
I'm, I'm trying to understand who, who am I? What am I good at? I've been affirmed in a number of different ways, but I don't know how to apply that.
So the opportunity to spend time considering how other people have navigated the world.
Was something that was very compelling to me.
(09:13):
So the master's degree for me was something that I am very thankful I did.
It was definitely a challenge.
It was, it was incredibly difficult, but it was also very rewarding because all the things that I'm learning about how to be a more effective leader.
to build systems and processes that are efficient and effective were immediately applicable to the environment that I was in.
(09:34):
So I'm learning and immediately able to turn around and make something better.
And I'm a huge fan of Seth Godin and so he talks about making things better by making better things.
And I felt like that was what my master's degree really empowered me to do is instead of going through as a youth pastor and just replicating what my other, my previous youth pastor had done and just keeping what he did going, it was now an opportunity to say, how do you want to construct the world? How do you want to make things better? So it really ingrained in me this developmental process that you can actually improve and also make things better.
(10:08):
When the opportunity came for me to apply for a position on the faculty side of the institution that I was working for, it required that I would go into a PhD program in that season of life when I was.
with this Reading Burks Conference of Churches as a board member, there was a lot of challenges that churches in our county were facing and the organization itself that it was facing.
(10:31):
The opportunity to move into a space to continue making things better was so compelling that I needed to get into and pursue a doctoral degree.
And part of that was in leadership spaces.
Some people have positions.
As a someone who has a position, they have authority over how something is going to go.
But if that individual is not pursuing their own growth and development, it will actually stagnate the organization.
(10:57):
So to join in with a group of doctoral students, similar to the master's program where they're all dedicated to improving themselves so that we can make things better, conversations were some of the most stimulating I've ever had.
So the emph.
I wanna be in a group of people who are thinking deeply about these things.
Yeah.
Cool.
And we've, you and I have talked about how we've missed that, uh, and that's one of the reasons I think we enjoy doing that.
(11:21):
It's kind of a little microcosm of what we had in those, those environments.
You talked about, I mean, you've, um, raised a couple of concepts and terms already.
I wanna I unpack a little bit more like you've talked, you talked about, um, having influence, you, you've talked about the opportunity to be a change agent or having agency and shaping things and, um, followers.
(11:43):
So, and you and I have gone back and forth like you're help, we're shaping each other's understanding and definition of leadership.
So where are you at in your definition or understanding of it with, you know, putting all those things together.
You don't have to say the, I'm not grading you anymore for papers, so, That's a relief.
yeah.
Yeah.
There are a number of leadership definitions out there, and sometimes they're describing and defining a leader.
(12:07):
Sometimes they're describing leadership as a concept that happens that is applicable to leaders or organizations.
Mm-hmm.
So the terms are all kind of squishy and and then there's management in there.
Right.
You know, too, so, yeah.
people like Cotter or Bennis who have hard distinctions between managers and leaders, and is, it is a very muddled field and a lot of it is built on, built upon people's experiences.
(12:32):
So in my experience, this is what a leader did.
This is what they said, this is how they behaved.
there are these emphases of leadership as behavior.
Leadership as position leadership as influence.
If you want to go to the John Maxwell, like leadership is influence.
Nothing Mm-hmm.
I'm a huge fan of thinking of leadership as a co-created process, Yeah.
(12:53):
is a relationship between leader and follower and there is no leadership unless there are followers.
So it is a co-created process.
You're negotiating constantly with those who may be following you and that.
Interaction will shape the kind of leadership that is created.
So there's no possibility of leadership unless there's the ability to have that co-created process that you're actually negotiating it together its darkest, we can think of leadership as, um, only what followers will allow.
(13:27):
So leaders can only get away with what followers will allow, and that's where our friend Wade Mullen and his work on Impression Management strategies really highlights the need for followers to take ownership of the influence that they have.
And I believe even it's even more calling and leaders to integrity than trying to put something on followers.
But I think for me, it really emphasizes that this co-createdness of leadership is something that we need to continue to understand.
(13:53):
How is that relationship being shaped, is the ongoing relationship? Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
All sorts of thoughts about that.
Yeah.
Yeah, so like the co-created process, I think is the, is the, really the foundation of it, but it's a co-created process of using power to influence people, to movement toward a vision.
So I that's long, but it's using power and the reason I highlight using power.
(14:18):
Yeah.
it's understood that there is a power dynamic, that there is some base of power.
So there are two researchers, French and Raven, who in 1959 and then 1965 wrote out a definition of these bases of social power.
Those are always operating we're in any relationship, we don't have the language always, but we know it.
(14:39):
So when you study it, you go, oh, that's why I felt that way when that person did those things.
So process of using power to influence people to movement toward a vision.
So it's always with people.
There's always some sort of change or movement toward a vision.
There's always something you're aiming for, and the most insidious kinds of leadership are the ones where the vision hasn't been properly defined or articulated.
(15:02):
So all of a sudden you find that you've been going in a direction, but no one's actually said what the direction is.
But we all sort of implicitly know this is the direction we're heading.
Then you come to an awareness and go, is this the direction that we should be going and want to be going? Yeah.
view leadership as just always happening.
It's just a matter of how aware or not are we of what is happening.
(15:22):
Yeah, I always say like, I mean, we all have, influences matter how, how intentionally we're stewarding that and in what direction and to what, you know, that that movement and vision and yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, our mutual friend Matt Tebbe, um, was on the podcast, uh, and we were talking about, uh, the power dynamics of, of, uh, pastors and, um, and I know you're, you know, when we talk about power, it's such a loaded term.
(15:47):
Uh, which by the way was another conversation, uh, we had on the podcast about that, you know, and, and, um, but, uh, so power's just a reality.
It's not, I just wanna, you know, point out, you and I are both from the perspective that power's a reality, not.
Power is not inherently, Good or bad, it's just a reality.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In that.
Yeah.
(16:07):
Well, so we've been immersed in this world.
We've studied, we have PhDs in leadership.
So I mean, and I tell people like I know a lot about it that doesn't automatically make me a better leader.
Um, and when we've seen, we've been in admin, we've been in ministry world, we've watched and taught and, and led in all this world.
So we've seen.
(16:29):
Head, you know, we, we see the headlines, we've lived the things that made the news.
Um, so what are the good and bad things that about where we're at now in church and ministry world from this 40 year now emphasis on leadership.
(16:50):
Yeah, that's a great question.
One of the things we must reckon with is our desire have someone tell us with great confidence, that if you do these things, everything will be all right.
Hmm.
have such a desire for someone to pacify our anxiety we will cling to certainty, even when it's not wise to clinging to that individual or if it's not possible to have certainty in those areas.
(17:21):
We are always dealing with the uncertainty of a life that has been plagued with sin.
So we don't know if today is the last day that we have.
We can't guarantee that we're not going to get into a car accident or be diagnosed with something, and we are looking for someone who can give us this confidence, this strength.
Rather than look to Jesus for that, we begin to look to a human for it.
(17:44):
And when we start to put humans in the place of Jesus, we've created idolatry.
And it can lead to really dramatic impact.
Because what we do in leadership, especially as followers in that co-created process, is we're giving of ourselves to trust that the vision that we've agreed to is being held to with integrity by everyone in the process, the followers and the leader.
(18:05):
So we're entrusting to this leader.
Some amount of authority, whether that be a position or merely just, uh, like a reference power where I'm idolizing you.
I'm, I'm looking up to you, I'm respecting you.
In doing that, we're entrusting part of ourselves to that individual we do that to a significant degree where those individuals become those who are no longer to be engaged in a co-created process like they're untouchable.
(18:32):
You can't question them, you can't challenge them.
Yeah.
losing that transparency, now we're moving into some very dangerous spaces.
And in the United States of America, there are these laws, um, or, or lack of laws where, for example, churches don't have to file a, any kind of paperwork with the IRS to disclose with transparency who the top-paid employees are or what their finances are, whereas every other nonprofit has to do that.
(18:59):
There's this bit of secrecy that can get woven into the church world where there's this subtle, it may not always be articulated, but it's often felt where you can't question them because they've been appointed by God to be the leader of this community, and therefore, you as a follower, you have no right to question anything that they do.
(19:20):
And I think that moves us into some very, very dangerous spaces.
And quite frankly, it ignores the priesthood of believers that we are being invited into inside the New Testament.
So the New Covenant is really this beautiful invitation for us to be part of this shared community.
So you can think of like a Dan White Jr.
and J.R.
Woodward and the work they're doing through V3 Church Planning, where they're trying to help us understand what a mutuality in leadership looks like, what a shared leadership is.
(19:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
avoid those pitfalls.
Where we're putting people up on a pedestal and saying, you are the, the anointed leader who can unquestioningly be doing this work.
Instead, we need to move to a model of leadership that is a shared leadership that is transparent where there is vulnerability and we are in encouraging one another to be in growth and in community together.
(20:08):
So we're learning how to improve one another and improve what we're doing together.
But when you talk about shared, I'm hearing, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm hearing, um, not just shared among the top, but shared among, uh, a shared understanding among leaders and followers as well.
Is that correct? Yes, absolutely.
That leaders and followers are actually, this co-created idea, like we are building this thing together.
(20:33):
There's this ongoing invitation.
It's almost as though every day you're waking up and you have breath and you're being invited into doing this work together.
And so it's continually checking in on we, are we still on this together? Are we still working on this together? it would require us to be more transparent.
To slow down and have more communication and it would require us to be in relationship.
(20:55):
And we get frustrated because relationships don't always feel scalable, Yeah.
Credibility and trust are at the foundation of any leadership attempt.
Yeah.
as we begin to get impatient as leaders, as soon as the fruit of the spirit are no longer the metric with which we're understanding whether we're progressing in the Christian life, when we begin to lose track of what we're being invited into in this great story of God.
(21:20):
The fruit of the spirit should be the metric, and it should actually cause us lean in on those relationships to a much greater degree.
So move slower.
Operate with transparency and vulnerability, appropriate vulnerability.
Have communication so that you're continuing to build trust with those that you're co-creating this leadership with.
(21:41):
Wow.
Um, so how much, I mean, you, you are raising more than I think I've heard elsewhere about kind of the follow that, that co-creating piece, first of all.
Right? So that, that piece.
Um, and, but there's also I think a systems systemic piece.
Like the assumptions that we bring in, like you said, like, I mean, uh, because we've, we've known and seen and read about, you know, people who are followers who try to raise the questions and try to make it a co-created kind of thing or whatever.
(22:14):
And there's, there's sometimes there's systems where the assumptions are, uh, no.
Stay in your lane, stay in your place.
There is this elevating kind of thing like where those types of systems, where do you, where do we start with those types of environments? You know, if we start from scratch, we can say, sure, we're gonna start with this, co-created v, all those great, which are great, but then I just look around and see so many where we've, we've gotten it wrong and need to course correct.
(22:44):
Absolutely.
The beginning of this is to begin establishing trust.
So some of us want to be prophetic voices, but we haven't done the work to establish trust and to communicate how we are on mission.
And that's not to say that anyone who is, communicating that things can be made better.
(23:05):
They're not the problem.
But sometimes in our impatience we have these knee jerk reactions where we are having really significant, we're levying significant judgments against others.
So we come out thinking, we're speaking this truth, this prophetic voice.
actually the emotion that we're bringing into it is what's contagious.
(23:25):
So emotions are always, Underlying the surface, so I'm communicating something to you, but the emotions I'm bringing in are actually causing the individual to be receptive to what's coming or to rejecting it.
So assuming the person you're talking to is someone who wants to operate with integrity, who wants to be able to engage in a co-created process of leadership, assuming that they want to be.
(23:49):
Getting better, then we can engage with them in a way that says, with you, I'm for you.
I'm for the mission that we have together, and can we have a conversation about how we might be able to do that better? So assuming the person can be engaged in that way.
Then we can begin to open up those conversations about where we might be falling short of the ideal for what leadership can be.
(24:13):
Now, if the leader you're working with is someone who, when you attempt to build relationships and to have trust, continues to reject that space.
That is far more problematic and far contextual.
Like what are they, the senior leader, is there a board? What are the peer relationships that that individual has? What are the peer relationships you have? So you start to have to do a bit of a mapping of the various relationships and the various qualities of relationships that are happening within that system.
(24:43):
Because if that person who is leading is not leading with integrity, they're going to have built around them, very likely systems that have perpetuated the lack of integrity and protect them from accountability.
So bringing accountability to a leader who doesn't want accountability is very challenging and very contextual.
Well, so I've also seen, um, followers or members of an organization who they, they, they don't want the response, responsibility of followership.
(25:15):
Maybe, maybe this is an article we need to write, like, because I've just seen people who they want a king.
I've, I've just now, just in this conversation with you, just raising that, that idea of the, of a responsibility of followership, not just responsibly of leaders.
I think we, we've put so much historically on the leader, still too much responsibility.
(25:37):
Um, and I know people, I've just been in churches where they go, I.
I trust you.
I, I, I want to, I'm going to abdicate yes.
to you.
Um, even sometimes when the leader is saying, I want to invite you, and he says, no, no, no.
I don't want to have that responsibility.
So, and I think the worst systems are where you have leaders who don't want accountability and followers who don't want responsibility.
(26:02):
Absolutely.
a very good insight, and there are followers that are saying, I'm coming to you because you provide me security.
You provide me comfort.
And for leader who has these like clingy followers, these, these dependent followers.
The work of differentiation of self will be vital that you're actually creating environments where that person can continue to feel safe, but also being challenged to work on their own differentiation, lacking differentiation.
(26:32):
Those followers will always be incredibly dependent upon the leader, and really what will end up happening is as soon as that leader is no longer able to provide the comfort and the safety that the follower wants.
The follower is going to get angry and turn on them.
So they're actually gonna begin to sabotage or villainize the leader.
And that's where in our relationship, in this co-created process, of our conversation with followers really needs to be.
(26:57):
Their own growth and development so that they are less dependent Yeah.
as a leader.
So for example, when I bring on a new employee and I'm working with them, one of the first things that I state is we are all only here for a season.
None of us have our eternal destiny in these roles at this institution.
Yeah.
What does my growth and your growth look like? So I'm inviting you to come and give me feedback.
(27:20):
At any point.
I'm inviting you to help me get better as a leader and as a person who has these responsibilities in the institution.
So you're not gonna offend me if you come and say, hey Tim, I feel like these are things that are gaps in your leadership or in your competence.
I wanted you to be aware of that.
And that also then creates the opportunity that they may say to me, I would love to have your feedback on how I can improve in my relationships, in my competence, in my role.
(27:47):
And so we just from the outset, create this expectation that we're all only here for a season.
And how in this season am I going to continue to improve and to get better? But I think that's a responsibility the leader has to highlight that perhaps some of the people we're bringing on, might have unrealistic expectations of leaders.
(28:07):
So I remember some years ago, I don't remember where I saw this, but I remember Nadia Boles Weber had this thing that she did when she would bring on new members to her church where she would say, I'm the pastor here.
I'm going to disappoint you.
I'm going to let you down.
So from the outset, she just provided this, I'm a human, I'm, I'm not gonna be perfect.
And if you're looking for the perfect leader, I'm not going to be it.
(28:29):
And I think there's something healthy in that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm thinking sometimes they, I, I mean, we've both been in positions I think where people have turned on us and gotten angry or uh, and either tried to sabotage or just left Mm-hmm.
they could find it elsewhere.
and I've been in that person.
I been that person Yeah, me too. 311 00:28:48,322.5 --> 00:28:52,020 differentiated I villainized a leader Yeah.
(28:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, let's talk a little bit, I, because I, you know, I've had the privilege and it really has been of, of walking with you for many years now, and we've gotten to see how our thinking and just how we've developed personally, not just our thoughts about leadership, but I know there was a time, uh, earlier in your time at Denver Seminary where a, a former colleague challenged you to deepen your theology of leadership.
(29:18):
Like that was something.
I don't know about you, but in my training it, there wasn't, I had systematic theology and then I had leadership classes.
Correct.
have theology of leadership or all these things.
We're talking about power and accountability and relationship and you know, community, all that kind of stuff.
Share a little bit about how that's, if you're willing to share about that conversation, but just how that has inserted another dynamic that you, I think you were bringing such a, uh, so many great thoughts that just the overall leadership conversation about the gap in a theology of leadership.
(29:53):
Absolutely, and you're right in, in my experience, going through Bible college, a master's degree, and then the PhD, they were, in essence two different disciplines that maybe had something to share with one another, but I don't know that the integration of the two was encouraged to a significant degree, and if it had been encouraged.
(30:14):
I don't know that I, I recognized that I wasn't doing a deeper integration that was available to me.
I think there were attempts to, not proof text, but I did, I think, default to proof texting.
I could think of specific assignments where, uh, a, uh, professor, uh, had said in essence, like, go through the book of Proverbs and make any notes for these management principles.
(30:37):
Yeah, I had that.
Yeah, I remember that assignment, Nehemiah.
Really? Right.
You know, it's like a great one for management.
Right.
And so you're, you're sort of held up as like, just go find in the Bible justification for what you're already doing.
Find justification for what the social theory already offers.
Or apply it to Jesus.
Right.
And so it's like that was the other one.
(30:59):
yes, always.
And I found that when I came to Denver Seminary particularly, I did have a colleague of mine who began to really challenge that you are operating with these two tracks and you've learned how to run the train down those tracks.
But rather than have them as distinct disciplines, what does it look like when you begin to integrate them and not just prove text, but actually begin to integrate them? And that work has been, has been really fun, nece, uh, to be honest.
(31:27):
mean, I've uncovered theologians that have also written things on leadership that I had never been exposed to.
So people like Ray Anderson who had been at Fuller Seminary during the, I think his seventies, eighties, and nineties, uh, he was doing some really creative work thinking about how eschatology should inform our ministry Yeah.
Yeah.
was like, oh, this is fascinating stuff.
So these last few years have been one of, of growth for me in that area.
(31:52):
My emphasis currently has been thinking through the fourfold, uh, that where we're able to actually go, like the grand narrative should shape our leadership practice.
So in my, in my following Jesus, my understanding of, of.
mission of God was, I'm a sinner in need of a savior, and that was the entirety of what my Christian faith was.
(32:12):
I'm going to go, I'm going to take my, survey instrument to the mall and I'm going to say, will you take a survey? And my was to trick them into me being able to, uh, present the gospel to them of, need of a savior.
Now I look at it and say, with this idea of a grand narrative, the creation fall, redemption and restoration, those bookends of creation and restoration, in addition to fall and redemption, that these four things are actually necessary because there's actually two chapters in the Bible before sin enters the world.
(32:45):
And so when we think about what's going on in Genesis one and two, and particularly in Genesis two 15, there's these Hebrew words of and shamar.
And this idea of to, uh, to, to create and to cultivate or to guard and celebrate.
Like there are these words of before sin has entered the world, humans were made for these things understand being made in the image of God and what we've been commissioned to do from the beginning.
(33:14):
Is really quite helpful.
And then especially when we think about this restoration of all things these bookends actually inform our leadership practice.
So right now, when I think about leadership, think of us as a signpost pointing toward a future heavenly reality that the work that we are doing here and now our leadership practice should be conducted in a way that points toward that future heavenly reality.
(33:36):
And we do so through understanding the person of Jesus through the fruit of the spirit.
These are things that should be, uh, something we're regularly simmering on and thinking about and being shaped by cultivating our emotions so that we are in line with the way of Jesus and the fruit of the spirit.
So this theological journey for me has been one that has invited me to bring my emotions to the table as well, because I can prove text that the thing I did was appropriate cause the person I was interacting with was a fool.
(34:02):
So it was appropriate for me to be harsh with them.
Right.
But I did it in such a way that I actually had anger toward the person, and Jesus told me that I'm actually murdering that person.
I'm violating this relationship.
So when I actually hold up, not just a faith statement, but the emotions that are driving my behavior, this whole inner world that I've too often neglected, I begin to hold that up against the person of Jesus, now I begin to recognize my need for Jesus, 'cause it's for me to sign the faith statement.
(34:35):
it is very difficult for me to recognize that my functional theology is very deficient.
It is not living up to the faith statement I claim to to abide Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
Such good stuff.
Um, yeah.
I'm thinking like, do you have.
Hope.
I, I feel like we're, um, the pandemic, certainly kinda the, the, the church is in decline, right? Like by any measure as far as the historical understanding that we've brought in for the last several hundred years is in decline, I should say.
(35:09):
The, we know from scripture and from G God's purpose for the church that, I mean, it's gonna prevail.
So, um, But I think we're ask, people are asking good and hard questions about how do we get here and what has this gotten for us and what course corrections do we need to make.
(35:30):
Um, the, I think the best and deepest questions are not just about structure or prac, I mean just kind of external practice, but like really these types of foundational questions.
Um, Um, I have hope.
I think because I'm see because things, some things are being dismantled that I think need to be dismantled and people are starting to have these questions.
(35:53):
Are you feeling hope or, and, and what do you think are some next steps? Big C Church.
Yeah, Big C Church.
I love that question.
I do find myself.
At times having cynicism.
I think that's part of my default setting Yeah.
to have been with me throughout much of my life.
And it's easy, it's safe, it's easy to be cynical and sarcastic about things, but I was challenged by a mentor couple years ago.
(36:20):
Romans 15:13.
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
So if I'm to understand Romans 15:13 as something that applies to me today, I'm to overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
And it comes through trusting in God.
Hmm.
indicated, the, the gates of hell will not prevail.
(36:42):
And we know that the church will continue to persevere.
And though there are specific iterations of church that will close, specific locales will have their churches closed down globally, the church will never end.
So when we think about Big C Church, my hope would be.
That we begin to move toward this priesthood of all believers that we're actually being invited in as these ambassadors of Christ that he who knew no sin became sin so that we could become the righteousness of God.
(37:09):
And now we go out as the righteousness of God.
And in that mission, we are actually.
Converting people, not through necessarily all of these, uh, brilliant cogent arguments for the Christian faith, but, but also this integrity with which we live that is going, why is this person operating with hope? So when we think about us being in the community and operating with hope, it can be a transformative experience.
(37:35):
I told you at the outset that I was coaching youth sports Yeah.
can be in such a negative environment with parents and, and players and coaches who are negative and and just mean and angry.
And when you show up into a space like that with integrity and hope, it can be a transformative experience.
So my hope would be that we begin to recognize that the mission of God is not just aspiring for everyone to go become a vocational minister somewhere, but instead the awareness that God has placed you in a location right now and the mission of God can be fulfilled and the location that you are right now.
(38:16):
So I think it moves us from this grass is greener, I'll serve Jesus better when I have that job or that position to right now.
How do I faithfully follow Jesus? How do I use the influence and the gifts and the skills that he's given me? To continue developing those gifts and skills so I can more competently serve the environments he's calling me in to serve, but also to just, I think it brings almost color to the environments moving from like a black and white and a gray to this colored environment where you're going, oh, there is beauty even here.
(38:49):
There is hope even here.
That's not to say that Christian life will not have suffering.
We know that suffering is part of the Christian life, but to do suffering well.
Through the hope that is available to us in the Holy Spirit, I think is a beautiful aspiration for us and something that is available to us.
would be my hope for the church Big C Church.
Go out with hope to fulfill the mission of God.
(39:11):
Hmm.
Well, and I'm kinda thinking through what you were saying about just coming with a grand narrative perspective as, as opposed to just kind of a getting to people to cross a line kind of thing.
I mean, it just reframes the how of all that, um, rootedness and stuff, and the phrase that came to my mind was, um, from using leadership as a lever, like, or just a series of levers that you can flip switches for these desired outcomes, um, you know, a mechanistic view kind thing, uh, for certain results to a lifestyle within that grand narrative.
(39:46):
Absolutely.
It's almost as though we're moving from gimmicks and manipulation formation and presence that we are invested in our formation, our Christ-like formation, and the presence that we have, being more attentive to the presence inside of this community and being attentive to the movement of the Holy Spirit within those communities.
(40:07):
So rather than, the lever and the manipulation, and how can I more eloquently to convince people to come over to my understanding and my ideas? It's actually recognizing that the Holy Spirit is active in doing work and, and the Holy Spirit is the one who will convert.
So my job is to be present to what is God doing in this space at this time.
(40:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's not in many books right now.
That's not in many leadership books.
There's a few starting to ask.
There are some that are, that are cropping up and it's exciting to see those.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
That's great.
What, uh, you know, we've listed a bunch of different, uh, and named just a bunch of different thinkers, authors, resources, um, and, uh, for every episode we also do like show notes where I do links, so, um, any ones that particularly have shaped your thinking that you want me to throw on this list with a link and, and, and that you would recommend to me? First of all, like when we get together, our Amazon, our, our wishlist get bigger and bigger every time.
(41:05):
I mean, we cost each other a lot of money.
So, Yes.
you, I mean you mentioned Ray Anderson, or you mentioned some others, but like, um, what have been some foundational, uh, readings or resources for you in this entire journey? Yeah, that's a great question.
I recently rediscovered Warren Bennis' On Becoming a Leader.
(41:26):
Uh, a book that was written in the 1980s uh, I don't remember.
I.
Much from it.
I don't use it in a lot of my classes, but as I've been going back through it, I'm discovering how much it has shaped my understanding of leadership 'cause he's inviting us into becoming whole integrated beings.
Oh wow.
I didn't That's before his time.
I mean, he was, he was before the time on that stuff 'cause it was so much practice based.
(41:50):
And that is what is fascinating.
He's actually really arguing and making a strong argument for how much we have to unlearn and especially the things we've learned from culture that are not accurate and true.
So that on becoming a leader was surprising how far.
It was what our needs were as opposed to just parroting what was being said at that time.
So Warren Bennis On Becoming a Leader was a, I, I was surprised how much I enjoyed that one.
(42:14):
It's dated, but it's because of when it was published.
I think it's a fascinating artifact.
Yeah.
but yeah, Ray Anderson, his, his works, uh, we use a book called Minding God's Business is great.
it's It's not one that you're gonna pick up and just be like, oh, this is like easy to read.
It's, it's it, it's good.
yeah.
I felt when I read it, cuz I know, you know, or some of our DMin courses use it and so like you said, I was.
(42:38):
I was like, what's all the fuss about? You know? And then I was like, oh, this is gonna take me a lot longer.
Oh, this is really, cuz I just, it really was a re uh, you know, a paradigm shift.
Mm-hmm.
That's, yeah, absolutely.
Um, actually, you got me to read a book, uh, called The Fifth Discipline by Peter Sang, Yeah, yeah.
about twelve years ago.
Yeah.
(42:58):
That book was fascinating.
To begin thinking about how everything is, is connected to one another.
This, this massive interconnectedness that was a, a very helpful resource for me.
Um, I really love the work that, um, J.R.
Woodward and Dan White Jr.
are doing at V3 Church Planning.
Dan's book, love, Love Over Fear was fantastic.
Subterranean was another one of his that was very impactful for me when I was in, in church ministry to think through some of these undercurrents that I had not been aware of.
(43:26):
I know I'm gonna miss some, but, um, anxiety, Steve Cuss is like top-notch out there.
I'm repping Steve's, uh, work with one of these, these mugs right here cuz There you go.
what he's doing.
There you go.
yeah, I know there's so many, it's almost hard Yeah.
Well, and I haven't read Woodward's new one.
I mean, as we're recording this, Eric Woodward's just come out.
(43:46):
Do you have it right there for display? leadership.
It's Yes.
Okay.
I, I mean, it is on my list.
Uh, and it's, you know, it's probably in the, within the next couple months I'll be getting to it, hopefully in the next month or so, but yeah.
Yeah.
it's definitely worth reading.
I mean, it is a doctoral dissertation, so it, it is Oh, that's what it was.
Yeah.
Okay.
it's thick, I know it's robust.
you're gonna fly through, but it great.
(44:09):
He do, he's doing some really great work integrating theology of power Great.
we understand leadership.
So J.R.
I think is doing some fantastic work.
Good.
That's great.
That's great.
Um, on a personal note, what's I, um, what's bringing you life this summer? We're recording this actually in, um, early July.
Um, so, and I think you're done coaching for now.
(44:31):
I know that's very life giving for you.
You're in kind of off season right now, but um, yeah, what fun stuff is bringing you life We are off season, but on Thursday nights we run a pickup soccer game for, uh, kids in the, in the age groups that I coach.
And so I just set up portable goals and the kids come out and it's been really fun actually, cuz it's like not.
You don't have to do it right.
I'm just saying, hey, I'm gonna up goals.
(44:53):
I'm gonna create a space where kids can come keep playing soccer through the summer and meeting parents and talking to them on the sidelines while the kids are out.
Having fun is one of those things that's very life-giving for me.
Um, my wife and I enjoy getting out and walking on trails together and just having time.
The kids are also enjoying that with us.
So getting out on mountain bike rides together just experiencing these things has been really good.
(45:15):
Uh, beauty of, I mean, you and I live in Colorado.
We have the opportunity to be outside quite regularly and find fresh air to be great.
Um, I was just back on the East Coast for a couple weeks and even then being outside into to nature and just being able to breathe, breathe, that outdoor air is something that is.
Always restorative to me.
finding myself enjoying water sports, like getting out and like doing a standup paddle board or a kayak.
(45:38):
Like those things are great and just continuing to read and journal is also where I just enjoy being able to have that introvert time where I can on things and not just think about content, but like, what does this mean for me? What is going on in my interior world? So those, those places where God meets me.
those places that are giving me this deep and abiding joy that I don't know that I've had access to, uh, in previous seasons of life because of unhealthy coping mechanisms and on my own part.
(46:08):
So Yeah.
been fortunate to be in a season of life where we are able to enjoy a lot of the goodness of God.
That's awesome.
That's so great.
It is great.
And, um, yeah, so thanks for letting us, uh, let me hit record on the stuff that we get to talk about all the time.
I mean, we, I've told you this, but I'll tell you on the air.
(46:28):
I mean, it's just such a privilege to be able to work together.
Um, you know, from when we met, uh, at another institution.
A while ago now, I mean close 15 years or 15 or 16 years.
And, um, and now to work together here, it is just really fun to, to have someone to walk with and to, um, not just conversations, but to see how we're continuing to grow and stuff.
(46:50):
So, It's so fun and it's such a joy to be able to do the work together.
So we'll just make a plug for, if you're looking to do theological education, master's programs and doctoral programs are at Denver Seminary.
Right.
Yeah.
And you can come and have these conversations on a regular basis.
For real.
Yeah.
Life giving stuff.
in the spaces we're in, is we get to learn from our students.
They're brilliant and doing so many great things, and to of those learning communities is just such a delight.
(47:16):
yep.
Yep.
So y'all come join us.
We have a good time.
We're doing good stuff.
Thanks for inviting me, Angie.
It's always fun to have conversations.
Yeah.
Ditto.
Thank you. 542 00:47:26,1.9732461 --> 00:47:27,541.9732461 Hey friend, thanks for joining me today. 543 00:47:28,321.9732461 --> 00:47:39,901.9732461 If you've liked this episode, I'd encourage you to share it with a friend or a fellow ministry leader, and if you enjoy the Big C Church podcast, I'd be grateful if you would go to wherever you listen to podcast and leave a positive review. 544 00:47:39,901.9732461 --> 00:47:41,101.9732461 Thanks so much for listening.
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