September 8, 2023 • 49 mins
Leadership by one “Senior” or “Lead” Pastor is the prevailing, assumed model in a majority of churches today. But is this the best way, and is it even biblical? In this episode, Angie and author and New Testament scholar Dr. Scot McKnight challenge current models and discuss possible corrections for healthier congregations and leaders.
Honorable Mention:
- The Big C Church Podcast: A Failure of Leadership (w/Tim Koller)
- Northern Seminary
- A selection of Scot's books:
- A Church Called TOV
- The Second Testament: A New Translation
- PIVOT: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture
- The Jesus Creed: Loving God, Loving Others
- The King Jesus Gospel: The Original Good News Revisited
- The Blue Parakeet, 2nd Edition: Rethinking How You Read the Bible
- APEST (fivefold ministry)
- Scot on X
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Listen to more episodes and read more of Angie's work at angiewardphd.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome back to the Big C Church Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Angie Ward, uh, Big C Church Podcast where we are having challenging conversations to better the body of Christ.
We are in a series on pastors and power, and so my guest today is Dr.
Scot McKnight.
Scot is Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary in Lyle, Illinois.
(00:30):
It would take an entire pod...
podcast just to go down his list of writings and accomplishments and all the things he's done.
Um, I've been able to follow his work for a long time, so it's a huge honor for me to have him here.
He is the author of, uh, award-winning The Jesus Creed, The King Jesus Gospel, The Fellowship of Differents, uh, Differents, A Church Called Tov.
(00:53):
Um, his newest, I think Scot as a couple weeks ago is The Second Testament, which is your translation of the New Testament, if Yep.
Yep.
And uh, um, so he is author of over 80 books.
So basically he speaks and a book falls out these days.
That's how that works.
Um, but I'm honored to have you with me, Scot, talking today about, uh, um, pastors and power.
(01:16):
Well, Angie, good to be with you and, uh, good to rehearse our connections over time.
Yes.
Yeah.
I've I've secretly stalked him from a distance.
Not really stalking, but, uh, we had lots of mutual connections, so, that's right.
Yeah.
Um, and one of the things I love about you, Scot, and the reason I want to have you on, uh, The Big C Church Podcast is you've got all the scholarly stuff, but, um, just as importantly, or maybe more so, you are a, uh, I've, I've seen you as a churchman, you someone who loves the, the church loves the body of Christ, wants to better it, wants to improve it.
(01:52):
And, uh, so a lot of your your work is not just scholarly, but has that practical focus.
Um, and so, uh, the series of pa about pastors and power, you are no stranger to, um, abuses of power, pastoral abuses of power.
You talk about it in, uh, A Church Called Tov.
The subtitle is Forming a Goodness Culture that Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.
(02:17):
Um, you attended Willow Creek, you've written about that.
Um, you've just been in church for a long time, so this is what I wanna talk to you about.
Some people are suggesting that there are structural flaws to the model, not just character deficits of specific pastors.
And so the question I wanna ask you is, are senior pastors biblical.
(02:42):
Are senior, okay, I will say this, I'll have a simple answer first.
There's no such thing as a senior pastor in the New Testament, so no, they're not biblical.
So now I've given the answer that a lot of people would like to hear.
Right.
Um, but, uh, I often say this, Angie, so you can, you can push back, but, um, the, if you have a group of people, uh, that are meeting together, let's say the House Church.
(03:17):
Um, within a month, at least one or two people in that group will sort of rise to be leader, leader types.
And I don't mean by that, that they're gonna take over, be the pastor, do the preaching, but that they seem to emerge, uh, as a leader.
And so I've often said that a totally egalitarian, uh, communitarian church, will last about a month, maybe two, and then something will happen that there will be some natural giftedness that will arise.
(03:54):
And I think I'm okay with that.
Um, the New Testament, you know, we don't really have churches in the gospels because Jesus is the Church in a sense.
And.
He's the Lord.
And this just doesn't, there's no rivals here.
So, so it's in the early churches, the book of Acts, in the letters of Paul, Peter, let's say Jude, John, et cetera.
(04:21):
We, we have people who are given titles of leadership or categories.
I've never liked the word offices.
I think it's way too official.
That's, not a pun.
Uh, it's way too institutionalized for me for what's going on in the New Testament.
(04:43):
But, um, the Apostle Paul clearly thinks he's got some significant leadership qualities to tell these churches what to do.
And in these churches, he tells 'em to appoint elders, uh, bishops, deacons, uh, and to find these people in these churches.
So there's going to be some leaders, uh, so I, I would put it that, uh, we will never get away from there being some leaders in church groups.
(05:12):
Church leaders, seminary professors, pastors will talk about office and compare it or contrast it with function, and I've never quite caught on to that language as being of, of much value to me, other than, let's say there's a, an official position called a bishop, and if you don't have the bishop, nothing can be done.
(05:36):
All right.
I, I, I understand that in an organization it works that way.
But I would never say that that's the case in the New Testament.
Um, I think the New Testament has people who are given different terms.
So, the word pastor is used a few times and people do use pastor as a, as a verb; 1st Peter 5.
(06:00):
Uh, and there are elders, uh, which is a very common term in the Jewish world and in the Greek world, and there are bishops, uh, which is a common term in the Greek world for a financial steward in a, in a community or city.
And then there are deacons, which is such a generalized term.
(06:20):
It's a, it's somebody who's sort of an understudy or a, uh, I would assume in a church, but also someone who serves the leaders and other people.
And so, um, the very notion of a senior pastor seems foreign to me, to the New Testament.
Though if you're in a House Church in Rome and there are people in your House Church, you might just have one person who has any kinda skills enough to be a leader.
(06:53):
But that's not what's going on in our world today.
Uh, we've created a model whereby a person goes to seminary, like where you teach and where I teach.
They assume that they are going to graduate and become a senior pastor eventually, where they are the preaching pastor, uh, in charge of the deacons or elders or whatever they're called, the leadership council.
(07:20):
And, uh, it's sort of everything sort of runs by them and through them and through over their desk.
And that's just, um, I don't know how to describe that other than to say this is the way the culture of churches have formed over time.
Yeah, I was gonna ask, how did we get here, because it's so assumed.
(07:42):
I mean, like, like you said, we just, uh, there's this idea that there's a, a senior pastor, some theological streams would say that's, um, there's even a "God's Man" to piece to that.
Usually it's also God's Man versus God's Woman for those streams.
I mean, an entire, uh, uh, an entire industries have been built around this model of senior pastor.
(08:08):
But um, when I bring it up with my students, I so say, show me "senior pastor" in the Bible to a bunch of senior pastors, I, oh, uh uh, Well, I, you know, I don't think, I guess we could have, say, Justin Martyr.
But by the third and fourth century St.
(08:28):
Christ system, whoever you want to talk about, seem to have formed like this.
Yeah.
And, um, let's face it, when you, um, are in a group of people, let's say a church, a, a gathering of Christians in a village and there are 75 people in there, and you've got one person who is really gifted, and let's say can preach, teach, and has all the qualities of wonderful Christian character.
(08:59):
They're probably gonna end up doing the preaching and teaching.
And I think that's the, um, that's the genesis of it, is just that it's personal giftedness combined with character over time, uh, that led to this becoming an institution.
I remember when I was in seminary, Angie, I was a young man and I knew of a man who was a pastor in the local community, Waukegan, Illinois.
(09:28):
It's a place you know about Yes.
Right.
and um, he was a missionary at one time and our family knew him.
I had a conversation with him one day and he said to me, cuz I, I was totally into spiritual gifts at the time.
I'd read Ray Stedman, you know, I thought I knew stuff about this stuff.
And I said something to him about giftedness and he said, I'm the only one in the church with the gift of pastor.
(09:57):
And now we never went to that church, but I knew four different people from seminary who were in that church who were going to become senior pastors.
But he was the only one with the gift of pastor.
And it just struck me as odd.
He was a good man, a nice guy, teacher type, and, but I, it, it struck me as, wow, that's pretty possessive of, of giftedness.
(10:27):
And I go to a church now where just so happens at one time there were seven different professors in the church.
Mostly seminary, mostly Trinity, but um, in fact it was all Trinity, but me, I think.
And um, and we all did a little bit of preaching and the church has gotten along very well with multiple preachers, but we do have, we did have one pastor and an associate pastor then a children's pastor.
(10:59):
So there was a staff, but there was sort of one person in charge.
And I, I find this to be normal and I find it to be dangerous and I find it to be very efficient, Haha.
um, in many cases.
Because when, you know, I've, I've often said this in my classes, uh, when the man is in charge, it goes easy.
(11:25):
Yeah.
only one people, one person has to make a decision.
And, uh, and I'm, I was talking about marriage at the time, but it's, is the way it works.
If only one person has the responsibility to make a decision, it's easy.
It's when there are four people in the room who have different views that you both have a struggle and you have the opportunity to expand and grow into a region that would never have happened otherwise.
(11:52):
Yeah.
So I don't know if I'm getting close to your topic or not, but for sure.
Yeah.
heard even not just from senior pastors who are kind of, well, uh, you know, I'm the only, like you said, I'm the only one with the, the gift or um, I've been anointed by God because of title or role or uh, whatever.
(12:14):
But I've also heard congregants say, I've been in congregations through our pastoral ministry, where I think the people want a king, they want a Yeah.
They've said, I think, because they're coming from corporate models or other churches with that, you know, kind of model.
And so they say we need one person where the buck stops here.
(12:35):
So I mean, is that human nature, is that sociological organizational function, or is that, uh, somehow, I don't know.
Not necessarily sinful, but like, what would you say to that? Yeah.
longing for a person.
Well, I do think, uh, that you've, you've touched on the right thing here when you talk about a culture.
(12:58):
Um, what, what is involved with the fact that, Su, every Sunday, when we come in into our churches, all the chairs are face-forward and people sort of file in and get their seats, and over time they get in the same seats.
And in most cases, in most evangelical churches, in most liberal churches, people are totally passive.
(13:24):
If you're in a liturgical church, you stand and sit and you recite, et cetera more than you do if you're in an evangelical church.
And then the, uh, order of the service leads toward a pastor who will preach for, uh, anywhere from 30 to 45 to 55 minutes.
And where did this come from? You know, where, where and why do we have a platform? Why, why is the pastor on a platform behind a pulpit? Where did this come from? The, the lecture hall mentality where the pastor seems to think that he is a.
(14:00):
Okay, I'll just use the negative language, a one man show and that everybody's job is to sit there with open mouths like little birds in a nest, uh, receiving everything.
Where, where did this come from? Um, and I, I'm not asking the question because I think it's just a history of, it's the culture that we have, but if you suddenly decided that we're gonna break up into small groups on Sunday morning in your megachurch the next week.
(14:31):
And then you said, then we're gonna do this every week.
I think half the people would leave.
This is not what, this is not what they've bargained for, cuz this is not the culture that they're used to.
So I do think that it's a culture.
I also think there's a money thing involved.
Hmm.
Um, right, let's just say this, that we hire someone.
(14:53):
I'm not saying in our church, but, uh, okay, let's just say that we're looking for a pastor.
Our church, your church, my church whose ever church.
There's just a search.
You look for someone with a, a seminary degree and they are specialist.
So all of a sudden now you have in the church and you're in Boone, Iowa, is, you may have heard of Boone.
(15:16):
Iowa.
That's right.
All right, so you're in Boone, Iowa, and you may be the only person in the entire community.
I don't know anything about Boone, Iowa, but I remember the days when people talked about Boone, Iowa, and um, you have one person with a theological pedigree and a theological degree, and they're trained.
They can read Greek, they can read Hebrew.
(15:38):
They've studied church history.
They're really good at what they do.
There's no competition in a sense, there's no rival.
That person and that person alone, in a sense, is qualified to do what is required from the platform on Sunday.
But, uh, I grew up in the seventies in my Christian faith.
(16:01):
Ray Stedman proved to me that churches that exercise spiritual gifts and allow different people to do what they're gifted to do, become a more spiritual based community that can thrive and flourish in ways that a solo pastor group can never do.
(16:24):
And so I, I really believe in the exercise of spiritual gifts, Sunday morning.
It is a different animal altogether, uh, because the way we've structured it and the culture, it is a performance in that.
And I don't mean that in a negative way of the musicians and the pastor.
That's what happens.
(16:45):
structure of it is, is designed that That's exact, it all is rooted in that.
And then of course, there's money.
We're paying one person.
We expect them to do more than just, uh, push paper in their office during the week and keep things moving in the right direction.
Yeah.
So, um, I have, I have, uh, a really ambivalent attitude towards senior pastors in that, first of all, I've, I see a pragmatism about it all.
(17:19):
Yeah.
I could see why it happens.
But secondly, I know that it distorts the giftedness of a church.
I'll give you an example.
I remember when I was teaching at the institution where, where we both were at the same time, way back, way back when movies were still black and white, okay? And uh, I was asked to teach at a Sunday school class at a church, and I thought to myself, they are paying three different professors every week to teach Sunday school at this church.
(17:59):
And I remember thinking, yeah, they paid, yeah, like $50 a week or $25.
It wasn't very much money, but weren't getting, but you're no, they were paying, they were paying people to teach Sunday school.
And I remember thinking, talking, I was a young professor.
I remember talking to other professors thinking they are not training people in their church to teach.
(18:20):
There are no teachers being, being raised up to teach adults in that church.
And it's a, it's a surfeit of, of, of ability to be able to draw on what, two or three seminaries in the area, some Christian colleges and have all these people available.
Sure.
It's really good for the people in the church, but they're not developing their gifts.
(18:42):
And that's the other side.
The pragmatism works, but the, um, lack of developing giftedness in the church to me is a very serious implication of the senior church, senior pastor model.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I hear you saying, correct me if I'm wrong, I mean it's, it's not anywhere the Bible.
(19:06):
I mean, pastor is, but it's not nec.
Is it inherently wrong? I guess that's my question.
Is it inherently flawed, would you say, Okay.
Uh, I do think there are pastors.
pragmatic, but there's the gifts side, and right.
yeah.
I mean, there are pastors in the New Testament, but I, there's no indication of a s of a solo pastor, a single pastor, we would call a senior pastor, but I, I also don't think that we should expect that there's no choir directors either.
(19:37):
There's no musicians, you know, so I don't think we should expect everything to be there.
Yeah.
the, so the senior pastor model is inherently flawed Mm.
in what it will produce a church if the senior pastor hogs the power.
(19:59):
Okay.
Okay.
So in other words, there are some senior pastors who are facilitators in giftedness, and they're going to empower other people to share that platform and to share leadership.
There are some senior pastors who are going to be very jealous of their status and envious of anybody else who just might be able to stand up on that platform and preach a good sermon.
(20:30):
Um, those are the, those is, you know, then it gets back to character.
But, so I, I would say this, it's flawed.
But I don't think it is fatally flawed.
Okay.
Gotcha.
I'm, I'm thinking when you're saying all this, I'm picturing, I'm a basketball fan.
We talked about, you know, a point guard, a good point guard will be, can score, but they're all, they're, they're also just as much about giving assists, so the whole team wins.
(20:58):
Yes.
And that, and their job is to guide the team and they will know what contribution they need to make at what point, I mean, magic Johnson was brilliant at this.
I don't think LeBron James is as good as Magic Johnson at this, um, 22 year old son who's a huge LeBron fan, but he probably won't listen to this cuz it's his mom's thing.
But you will listen to the fact that O Oscar Robertson was a great point guard for the Milwaukee Bucks.
(21:25):
And he, um, he knew how to distribute the ball and he knew when to take over and when and when to hold back.
And I think a good senior pastor who facilitates the ministries of others who distributes power, who empowers other people, who trains other people to become leaders, is the sort also that, when he or she retires, is easily replaced because they've put themselves in a position where they're not the only person, you know.
(22:00):
Um, Skye Jethani did this study, this was, uh, maybe 15 years ago, but I, I sat down with him in a restaurant in Wheaton and he told me he had been re studying for a year, uh, working I think at Christianity Today, at the time.
Megachurches and he said none of them has not, one of them has a succession plan that is going to work because everything is based on them.
(22:28):
Mm-hmm.
Um, I was told recently of a megachurch pastor who was resigning and they sent out, you know, they had all the people who were looking for these jobs, uh, who looked for people like this, and no one wanted the job.
Right.
No one wanted the job cuz no one was that person.
yeah, I'm talking to, to, I have friends who are in search firms where they're trying to replace those pe- one person type things.
(22:53):
You know, certainly Willow most notably, but others, and they're just saying, the, the next generation doesn't, doesn't want it.
They don't want you know, and it built up so much around kind of the one person, Yeah.
even intentionally, but it just kind of did grow up into a big tree around that.
And nobody wants that I, I, I would say, Angie, that there are always some ego-centric, uh, young, young, uh, studs who think they want those, those big platforms.
(23:23):
But, but do they have the giftedness of a Rick Warren or an Andy Stanley or, uh, whoever you talk about, do they have that giftedness? That is very rare.
Yeah.
Plus what a history that those like Rick Warren had with his church and his age had, you know, everything had grown with him.
(23:45):
Yeah.
And the gravitas grew yeah.
Yeah, there.
Yeah.
Keller broke his into pieces before he stepped down and then, you know, I mean, did he do that on purpose for that reason? did.
I don't, they did it on purpose for that reason.
I don't know, but certainly on purpose.
Oh yeah.
I knew he'd broken it into pieces, Yeah, but, um, I didn't know if that was sort of his succession plan.
(24:09):
yeah, that's a pretty clever idea.
But I'm sitting here thinking, uh, cuz we went to Willow Creek for 10 years.
They couldn't do that.
They had a mega campus and a mega platform and a mega budget and a mega building and a mega parking lot.
You gotta break up a lot of stuff to go with With Yeah.
they already were, I think, maybe uniquely situated with not big being big land.
(24:35):
You know, a landmass in the city of New York.
They couldn't.
Yeah.
By the way, New York was, well some folks, there's an, you know, a whole nother school of thought about just around APESTs.
So the whole fivefold ministry, Ephesians 4:11, you know, and saying you know, church should have all five re represented in leadership.
So that's kinda the opposite, you know, from one person has to have all these five, like, what's your take on the application of APEST for this? Is that body or is that senior leadership or all of the above.
(25:06):
With what your understanding of the, the gifts that you know, you're so passionate about? The um, the first thing I would say about APEST is that there aren't five.
There, there are four.
So pastor teacher is a single one, and this this really irritated me.
When I first heard about APEST, I whole franchise.
Scot, we That's right.
I'm this, why are you distinguishing pastor from teacher in this text? The second thing is I've, um, I've been profoundly disappointed in the way, uh, the people who are advocates for APEST have defined the terms.
(25:43):
You know, like an apostle is an entrepreneur.
I'm sorry, that's not what an apostle is in the New Testament.
An apostle is someone who has been called by Jesus.
You know, I mean, I don't think there are apostles today.
So, you know, I mean, you can use it in a general as a missionary.
Um, a prophet is someone who hears from God then.
(26:04):
So I've, I've paid attention to people who have defined the terms who are really big in this, and I don't like their definitions at all.
So I, I find it to be quite misguided in its, um, zeal to think that this is the solution to church leadership and churches.
(26:26):
Yeah.
Um, I, as I've told several of these people, I grew up with Ray Stedman when I was in college and he focused on that passage and he had four gifts and he didn't define any of the terms, the way these people are defining it.
And, um, so I really do believe that that's a good passage to focus on for, let's just say sorts of spiritual manifestations of leadership in local church communities.
(26:57):
Okay.
I'm all for that.
Yeah.
but I don't think it, it's a solution.
And, and I have also said this, that, you know, it's so odd that the second century didn't even talk about these things.
So why, why are they not talking about these things for their local churches? Um, and I don't like the fact that people pigeonhole themselves.
(27:21):
I, I believe this, Angie, I believe that the Spirit of God uses us in context and that is a gift to the church.
We are not in a sense given a gift that we contain, that we hold and possess, and that no one else has that gift.
(27:46):
I, I don't look at it.
I look at it as sort of moments of the spirit using us in the context of a church that needs to be received as a gift rather than something that we possess and have and own and control.
So I've had a, a mentor once said she believed God, she said God doesn't call the gifted, God gifts the called.
(28:12):
And sounds like, I mean, for kind of, for like Yeah.
circumstance or environment and gifts you to not like I'm a gifted, but wouldn't you say you're a gifted teacher? Um, yeah, I mean, I don't like to sit around say that I'm a gifted teacher, but yes, I think I have the gift of teaching.
Yeah.
I don't think I have the gift of preaching, but I do preach every now and then.
(28:35):
And, uh, I'd rather not do that that much.
I like, I like teaching in a classroom.
I like writing, and I like studying.
So those are the sorts of things I do.
and I, and you hold though and steward? I think I, I like the idea that I stewarded it.
(28:55):
Okay.
That it, you know, it's, it's when, when I'm exercising the gift, let's say in a way that is a gift to the church, Yeah.
then I'm, uh, stewarding the gift of God.
But only then, only then, so, so for instance, I don't think I have the gift when I'm sitting, uh, in my backyard.
(29:24):
Um, looking at birds, Gotcha.
Yeah.
so, and we have an oriole in our backyard recently, which is really fun.
So there's a function that that with a, and then in a particular context that's it's the gifted in that Yeah.
Yeah.
of time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I only time I, uh, and I don't like to say I have the gift.
(29:45):
The only time I exercise the gift is when I'm in the context of the church community and I'm being prompted by the spirit to do teaching.
Tell me church community, what you mean by that as I don't think you mean just your local congregation, No.
Any, yeah, any time that I'm being called upon to.
So I, I think in writing books and writing books, Yeah.
(30:09):
that, that's a part of the, uh, I steward the gift of teaching when I'm writing, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this idea of, um, uh, the great teacher Scot McKnight, or the great pastor, like there's this, uh, my husband, uh, as a pastor, people would call him pastor.
Like that was his name.
Like, that was a bestowed, you know, all the time, kinda thing.
(30:33):
Um, instead of just a, a title for the moment or a Yeah.
I, yeah.
Uh, I, I, I don't know why, but when I first started teaching at Trinity, way back in and when I, uh, I started teaching before I had my PhD.
And I asked students to call me Scot, and I said, I don't want you to call me Mr.
(30:55):
'cause that's a high school teacher.
So you can call me a professor, but my name is Scot.
That's the name my parents gave me.
And we are brothers and sisters in Christ.
So when I got my PhD, the students said, now do we call you doctor? I said, definitely not.
I'm still Scot and you and we are brothers and sisters and I've always done this.
It was really odd though when I began to teach undergrads and they were 18 years old and they were calling me Scot.
(31:22):
yeah.
I thought, okay, that's a little different.
But, uh, I only have a few students who've called me doctor since left Trinity.
So this is now what? It's almost 30 years.
Yeah.
And, uh, it's rare that a student will call me doctor and when they first do it, I always say, my name is Scot and I'm happy with that.
(31:45):
But if they insist on it, I don't tell 'em they can't.
But it's rare.
So I, I think I want to be seen as a brother in Christ more than a title.
Yeah.
So talk to me, you are at, I believe, an Anglican church.
Yes.
With, with a lot of which, so liturgical, there's a lot of structure and offices and you are, you hold an office, correct? Uh, You're ordained an, yeah, I, I'm a deacon.
(32:16):
I'm a deacon and I'm a canon theologian, so Okay.
I don't think I've ever been told that those are offices, but I suppose they are.
Ah, We won't tell anybody.
my, uh, my bishop is Todd Hunter.
Yep.
Bishop we have, he's very charismatic kind of guy.
You know, he was in charge of the Vineyard Church for a while, so, um, we don't, we don't have a whole lot of, uh, kissing of rings, let's put it that way.
(32:45):
So what does that title slash function slash office mean to you as the holder of that? Why did you that or, or were asked to? Why did you agree to that? So, I was approached some leaders in ACNA, the Anglican Church of North America, to become ordained as a deacon, not in order to become a priest, but so that I could become a canon theologian to a bishop, if that is, that's what happened.
(33:16):
So I became a deacon with the plan that I would become a canon theologian.
It was because of my writing and teaching and speaking, uh, ministries that, uh, they asked me to do that.
So my responsibility is to advise my bishop he seeks advice.
(33:38):
Okay.
So he, he did something on being a canon theologian.
I'm just picking a little bit at you.
He, he could.
Sure he could.
Yeah.
That would be okay with me too.
I don't need, I don't need the title.
yeah.
Uh, I don't, I don't like that stuff.
I don't get carried away with that stuff.
But I do like having a, I do like to have a, a clerical shirt because then I don't ever have to think about what to wear to church on Sunday.
(34:05):
does make it easy.
Yes.
I like that.
Yeah.
really like that.
You have the, the.
Yeah.
There's a little, it's a tab that fits into a shirt.
Yeah.
yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So from your writing and experience with Church Called Tov, and you know, you've got a follow up coming, I know that you're working on, um, probably coming out next year, but, and, and your New Testament scholarship, uh, know, the various models you've seen that we've seen, you know, or people make the case for in scripture, if you were designing a church from the ground up, you're part of a planting team.
(34:41):
What do you think is the most flourishing? Is there a most flourishing Uh, yeah.
My daughter and I have a book coming out in September called Pivot.
In the last three letters of Pivot are tove backwards.
Pretty clever.
cover design and It's really, It's very it is really cool.
So I, I had nothing to do with it.
(35:01):
Um, the, the, um, If I was designing, so in other words, a church planting situation, um, first of all, I wouldn't, um, I don't believe that there is an ideal model that's perfect.
I don't believe that there are ideal people that are, are gonna be perfect, and I don't think that there is such a thing as an ideal church.
(35:26):
So we would start with a, with a gathering of people.
And, uh, those who had the gifts, uh, that began to manifest themselves, the character that would back it up according to our judgment, recognizing that St.
Paul, uh, has some pretty good ideas that St.
Augustine developed, that, uh, are fallen.
(35:49):
And, um, I would foc I would want to focus on Jesus, following Jesus, listening to Jesus.
That he would be, I would have a centered set approach to theology so that we would focus on Jesus as the center, it there, keep him there, and that it would be about, uh, leadership would be in a sense rooted in quality of followership over time.
(36:22):
And we would make mistakes in judging who that followership would be.
I would also want there to be, let's say, uh, term limits on major positions in the church Including that yes, for sure, Wow.
would you suggest.
(36:45):
Uh, let's, Now if you're Anglican, you don't really have this sort of thing and your method, you know, I mean, the Methodist, the Methodists do, do this.
Every three years they're getting shuffle, shuffled around Yeah.
I, I would say, um, five years with one renewable, uh, time.
(37:07):
Yeah.
Um, But the, here's where I have a problem.
If it is a really good facilitating, distributing, delegating type pastor, I don't have a much a problem with a long term pastorate.
Yeah, there's certain ministry that happens after 10, 15, 20.
(37:28):
But I mean, like if you, if youre the type of pastor that makes sure that other people are platformed and, and get, are empowered to do their gifts and they get the credit in a sense so that it's not all about you.
I think your durability in a church is safer, but if you're the one of the show and you're really good at it, not safe for the community in his long-term health.
(37:55):
You're, first of all, you're not that good.
Only Jesus is.
And secondly, you know, you're gonna shut out other people and, and other people's gifts are not gonna be developed.
I've been trying to take some lessons from what the church can learn from InterVarsity or other campus ministries where you have to regenerate student leadership every two, three or Mm.
(38:16):
You have a staff person that stays on maybe five years, 10 years longer, but they're never the center of the show.
They're always regenerating that student leadership.
You know, I like our pastor, uh, Amanda.
All right.
But I do think that, um, that, um, that, that a single leadership tends not to develop leadership in other people.
(38:48):
And, but here's something even more significant.
If you know that you are going only gonna be the leader for two or three years, then everybody else will begin to flourish.
What happens in many churches, and I don't think this is the case in our church at all, we have a lot of people participating.
(39:09):
I, I'm amazed at it.
We really, we do have a senior pastor, but it doesn't look like it in that, in the sense of having someone in charge of everything.
But, um, what happens when everybody realizes that we're all responsible for what's going on? We don't have passive people coming in, watching and then leaving.
(39:33):
If you don't wanna participate and contribute, you don't join.
And that's, and that's the culture I think that we need to develop in churches.
Yeah.
That's very counter-cultural to let's attract the most.
Yeah.
I don't believe in that at all.
I don't think that helps.
(39:54):
All that does is just take people from other, just takes people from other churches.
That's what it does.
I mean it's, you know, you can talk about evangelism.
I remember Willow Creek used to say they adv, they baptized a thousand people a year, but about 900 of them were Catholics, you know, so it was just Catholics leaving Catholic churches joining and, and maybe, you know, a lot of them probably had never had a born again experience, but I wouldn't necessarily say they, they weren't Christians.
(40:22):
Uh, so we can get into that at some other time.
But um, uh, I really believe that, um, churches are best, say, when they are below 150.
Yeah.
More people are engaged in smaller churches than in bigger churches.
Yeah.
(40:42):
The more people who are engaged, the more the church is being the church.
Yeah.
Yeah.
but what from my observation, I mean, the bigger churches are about scalability.
I mean, there's a, that's, that's the point is the more you have, the fewer, you don't, you don't have to get everybody.
I mean, I think behind it sometimes there's a, a, well, we can scale, so we can have 5,000 people.
(41:07):
With fewer people at the top that is too messy.
Scot, you're suggesting messiness.
Yeah, well, I think, uh, I'm a New Testament guy, you know, so I I like to look at what's going on in the New Testament and say we need to be more like that.
Not that I think the early church was ideal, but I do think, uh, I, I know it's a fact that churches that are smaller have much higher participation and therefore, Christians are gonna grow in their giftedness, and the church is going to be more participa participatory than in those larger churches.
(41:49):
I've attended Willow Creek.
I could just roll in.
We, Kris and I could roll in, in our car, walk in, sit down, walk out, and never see a person we knew.
Yeah.
Other than the people on the platform, which we didn't, we didn't know them either, but we, we knew who they were.
They were celebrities.
(42:10):
So what, what, what would you say, what would you exhort or challenge, uh, those who are, who are senior pastors today? One thing I would say is giving away, I mean the work of the ministry, training I, I would say, um, measure your participation level.
(42:32):
And measure success in a sense, your spiritual giftedness by the higher, the percentage of people who are engaged in participating in various ministries in the church.
You know, Angie, I don't know a number for this.
I've never heard of a number for this, Yeah.
(42:52):
but I think, I think it's pretty, the bigger the churches, it's like 5% or less that are actually involved.
Smaller churches, I think it's, it's much higher.
So let's just say are 50% of the people in your church actually engaged in the church? And then let's ask, why would we even measure only 50%? Shouldn't we strive for a hundred percent engagement and participation? Yeah.
(43:22):
Yeah.
So do you think growth happens from inside or outside or both? Because some folks, some of our brothers and sisters would hear this and say, but um, Jesus said we need to be out winning souls, whatever, bringing other people to Christ and bringing new people into the church.
Well, that, I mean, that's the gift of evangelism and that's the, that's the calling of church, uh, of Christians to be able to engage other people with the, uh, let's see.
(43:51):
With who Jesus is and getting other people to follow Jesus.
And I think it's the calling of the entire church, every person, um, but especially connected to certain kinds of giftedness and, uh, and, uh, church growing in that way is a, is a good thing.
Um, churches that don't ever baptize a new believer in, let's say five years, are not evangelizing.
(44:22):
Yeah, so it's both.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate you just, uh, kind of chewing on this a little bit with me.
I, I just, my experience, and I don't know about yours, but I got a bunch of, you know, I've got students who are pastors and or wanting to be past-, you know, seeking to be pastors.
(44:43):
And most of us in the church, leadership or lay, haven't even thought about this.
We've just swallowed the model.
Yeah.
And we, we haven't thought about it.
And, uh, yeah, I, I tell a story about how I was teaching ministry leadership.
I was teaching church the way I was taught it or experienced it and leadership the way I was taught it and experienced it and suddenly realized teaching to a model here.
(45:06):
I don't know how we got here or if I even buy this and I need to think about that if I'm teaching this.
But this, you know, you called it messy.
It's a revolution to think any other way.
I mean, uh, the whole culture, I mean, you and I teach at a seminary.
Our seminaries are an extension of the senior pastor model in churches.
(45:30):
That's who we're, that's who we're bringing up.
yeah, I can say I can, and I'm sure it's true at your seminary too, we have a lot of students in our seminary who are not planning on being senior pastors.
yeah.
They're just, questions if they yeah.
And they're just, they're just, uh, they wanna be, they wanna study the Bible more.
(45:52):
You know, they wanna be more gifted for the things that they're doing in their churches, but they don't wanna preach, they don't want to be the senior pastor.
They don't wanna put up with that crap.
You know, they, for sure.
yeah.
Yeah, So, Yeah.
Well, tell me what else you've got.
Pivot when, and that's coming out next year.
What else? What other three books are you working on? I, uh, you know, I'm doing four books a year for everyday bible studies, You.
(46:17):
Okay? so Yeah, there's a, I I, it's a 4-year, 16-book project.
I've stayed on schedule so far.
Uh, so that, and then I'm, um, I'm actually right now writing a book with a student who's a pastor.
He's a former student on deconstruction Nice.
(46:38):
and, uh, it's called right now, it's called Losing Religion Without Losing Jesus.
Yeah.
But it's sort of, uh, the sub theme of it is, uh, the exit interviews your church leaders never heard.
Is it why people leave the church and why the deconstruction is going on.
(46:58):
So I'm fascinated by this, uh, the tension that so many people feel, and one of the things is going on is exactly what we're talking about today.
It's not crystallized around a senior pastor, but it's crystallized around the church as an institution that's not living up to its expectations, Yeah.
(47:19):
so they're, walking away.
that in the, in the show notes for sure.
What's bringing you joy? Last question.
Bringing you joy this summer, and I haven't followed the Cubs.
Are they, are they bringing you joy or what else are you enjoying this summer? Well, my son, you know, we were Cub fans for a long time, but my son is now the Senior Scout for the Cleveland Guardians.
(47:40):
So I am a Cleveland Guardians so fan, and I don't watch Cub games.
They're left behind.
I changed teams like LeBron James Well, that's right.
You've announced your decision.
Yeah, that's Yeah, that's right.
So, um, um, we love, I have a new app called the Merlin app.
That identifies birds by their song.
(48:03):
Well, yeah.
You're a And I'm discovering all kinds, like there's a red-eyed verio and there are warbling verios and there are birds that we hear every day that I had no idea whether that's what we were hearing.
I'm not real good with sound, so I'm learning some of these bird sounds.
So it's been really fun to do this and um, and I'm, I'm enjoying the, the writing and our walking, uh, this summer.
(48:30):
The weather is beautiful Yeah.
we have mo um, some milkweed plants with potential Monarch eggs on 'em.
So we may be raising Monarchs in our little terrarium this summer.
Awesome.
That's great.
thanks so much for being, uh, on The Big C Church Podcast and chewing on this stuff with me.
(48:50):
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for all your contributions to the kingdom, the leaders you're raising up, and how you're just stewarding and all that, that God's given you.
Well, thank you Angie.
Good to see you and I'm glad I'm, I'm glad that we just chatted about this 'cause a lot of these things are things I've never, I've never written about and I, I don't really know sometimes what I believe about some of these things.
(49:12):
So it was fun to talk about.
Yeah, there you go.
I just gave you your next couple book ideas, so you're welcome.
Oh, thank you.
Welcome back to the Big C Church Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Angie Ward, uh, Big C Church Podcast where we are having challenging conversations to better the body of Christ.
We are in a series on pastors and power, and so my guest today is Dr.
Scot McKnight.
Scot is Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary in Lyle, Illinois.
(00:30):
It would take an entire pod...
podcast just to go down his list of writings and accomplishments and all the things he's done.
Um, I've been able to follow his work for a long time, so it's a huge honor for me to have him here.
He is the author of, uh, award-winning The Jesus Creed, The King Jesus Gospel, The Fellowship of Differents, uh, Differents, A Church Called Tov.
(00:53):
Um, his newest, I think Scot as a couple weeks ago is The Second Testament, which is your translation of the New Testament, if Yep.
Yep.
And uh, um, so he is author of over 80 books.
So basically he speaks and a book falls out these days.
That's how that works.
Um, but I'm honored to have you with me, Scot, talking today about, uh, um, pastors and power.
(01:16):
Well, Angie, good to be with you and, uh, good to rehearse our connections over time.
Yes.
Yeah.
I've I've secretly stalked him from a distance.
Not really stalking, but, uh, we had lots of mutual connections, so, that's right.
Yeah.
Um, and one of the things I love about you, Scot, and the reason I want to have you on, uh, The Big C Church Podcast is you've got all the scholarly stuff, but, um, just as importantly, or maybe more so, you are a, uh, I've, I've seen you as a churchman, you someone who loves the, the church loves the body of Christ, wants to better it, wants to improve it.
(01:52):
And, uh, so a lot of your your work is not just scholarly, but has that practical focus.
Um, and so, uh, the series of pa about pastors and power, you are no stranger to, um, abuses of power, pastoral abuses of power.
You talk about it in, uh, A Church Called Tov.
The subtitle is Forming a Goodness Culture that Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.
(02:17):
Um, you attended Willow Creek, you've written about that.
Um, you've just been in church for a long time, so this is what I wanna talk to you about.
Some people are suggesting that there are structural flaws to the model, not just character deficits of specific pastors.
And so the question I wanna ask you is, are senior pastors biblical.
(02:42):
Are senior, okay, I will say this, I'll have a simple answer first.
There's no such thing as a senior pastor in the New Testament, so no, they're not biblical.
So now I've given the answer that a lot of people would like to hear.
Right.
Um, but, uh, I often say this, Angie, so you can, you can push back, but, um, the, if you have a group of people, uh, that are meeting together, let's say the House Church.
(03:17):
Um, within a month, at least one or two people in that group will sort of rise to be leader, leader types.
And I don't mean by that, that they're gonna take over, be the pastor, do the preaching, but that they seem to emerge, uh, as a leader.
And so I've often said that a totally egalitarian, uh, communitarian church, will last about a month, maybe two, and then something will happen that there will be some natural giftedness that will arise.
(03:54):
And I think I'm okay with that.
Um, the New Testament, you know, we don't really have churches in the gospels because Jesus is the Church in a sense.
And.
He's the Lord.
And this just doesn't, there's no rivals here.
So, so it's in the early churches, the book of Acts, in the letters of Paul, Peter, let's say Jude, John, et cetera.
(04:21):
We, we have people who are given titles of leadership or categories.
I've never liked the word offices.
I think it's way too official.
That's, not a pun.
Uh, it's way too institutionalized for me for what's going on in the New Testament.
(04:43):
But, um, the Apostle Paul clearly thinks he's got some significant leadership qualities to tell these churches what to do.
And in these churches, he tells 'em to appoint elders, uh, bishops, deacons, uh, and to find these people in these churches.
So there's going to be some leaders, uh, so I, I would put it that, uh, we will never get away from there being some leaders in church groups.
(05:12):
Church leaders, seminary professors, pastors will talk about office and compare it or contrast it with function, and I've never quite caught on to that language as being of, of much value to me, other than, let's say there's a, an official position called a bishop, and if you don't have the bishop, nothing can be done.
(05:36):
All right.
I, I, I understand that in an organization it works that way.
But I would never say that that's the case in the New Testament.
Um, I think the New Testament has people who are given different terms.
So, the word pastor is used a few times and people do use pastor as a, as a verb; 1st Peter 5.
(06:00):
Uh, and there are elders, uh, which is a very common term in the Jewish world and in the Greek world, and there are bishops, uh, which is a common term in the Greek world for a financial steward in a, in a community or city.
And then there are deacons, which is such a generalized term.
(06:20):
It's a, it's somebody who's sort of an understudy or a, uh, I would assume in a church, but also someone who serves the leaders and other people.
And so, um, the very notion of a senior pastor seems foreign to me, to the New Testament.
Though if you're in a House Church in Rome and there are people in your House Church, you might just have one person who has any kinda skills enough to be a leader.
(06:53):
But that's not what's going on in our world today.
Uh, we've created a model whereby a person goes to seminary, like where you teach and where I teach.
They assume that they are going to graduate and become a senior pastor eventually, where they are the preaching pastor, uh, in charge of the deacons or elders or whatever they're called, the leadership council.
(07:20):
And, uh, it's sort of everything sort of runs by them and through them and through over their desk.
And that's just, um, I don't know how to describe that other than to say this is the way the culture of churches have formed over time.
Yeah, I was gonna ask, how did we get here, because it's so assumed.
(07:42):
I mean, like, like you said, we just, uh, there's this idea that there's a, a senior pastor, some theological streams would say that's, um, there's even a "God's Man" to piece to that.
Usually it's also God's Man versus God's Woman for those streams.
I mean, an entire, uh, uh, an entire industries have been built around this model of senior pastor.
(08:08):
But um, when I bring it up with my students, I so say, show me "senior pastor" in the Bible to a bunch of senior pastors, I, oh, uh uh, Well, I, you know, I don't think, I guess we could have, say, Justin Martyr.
But by the third and fourth century St.
(08:28):
Christ system, whoever you want to talk about, seem to have formed like this.
Yeah.
And, um, let's face it, when you, um, are in a group of people, let's say a church, a, a gathering of Christians in a village and there are 75 people in there, and you've got one person who is really gifted, and let's say can preach, teach, and has all the qualities of wonderful Christian character.
(08:59):
They're probably gonna end up doing the preaching and teaching.
And I think that's the, um, that's the genesis of it, is just that it's personal giftedness combined with character over time, uh, that led to this becoming an institution.
I remember when I was in seminary, Angie, I was a young man and I knew of a man who was a pastor in the local community, Waukegan, Illinois.
(09:28):
It's a place you know about Yes.
Right.
and um, he was a missionary at one time and our family knew him.
I had a conversation with him one day and he said to me, cuz I, I was totally into spiritual gifts at the time.
I'd read Ray Stedman, you know, I thought I knew stuff about this stuff.
And I said something to him about giftedness and he said, I'm the only one in the church with the gift of pastor.
(09:57):
And now we never went to that church, but I knew four different people from seminary who were in that church who were going to become senior pastors.
But he was the only one with the gift of pastor.
And it just struck me as odd.
He was a good man, a nice guy, teacher type, and, but I, it, it struck me as, wow, that's pretty possessive of, of giftedness.
(10:27):
And I go to a church now where just so happens at one time there were seven different professors in the church.
Mostly seminary, mostly Trinity, but um, in fact it was all Trinity, but me, I think.
And um, and we all did a little bit of preaching and the church has gotten along very well with multiple preachers, but we do have, we did have one pastor and an associate pastor then a children's pastor.
(10:59):
So there was a staff, but there was sort of one person in charge.
And I, I find this to be normal and I find it to be dangerous and I find it to be very efficient, Haha.
um, in many cases.
Because when, you know, I've, I've often said this in my classes, uh, when the man is in charge, it goes easy.
(11:25):
Yeah.
only one people, one person has to make a decision.
And, uh, and I'm, I was talking about marriage at the time, but it's, is the way it works.
If only one person has the responsibility to make a decision, it's easy.
It's when there are four people in the room who have different views that you both have a struggle and you have the opportunity to expand and grow into a region that would never have happened otherwise.
(11:52):
Yeah.
So I don't know if I'm getting close to your topic or not, but for sure.
Yeah.
heard even not just from senior pastors who are kind of, well, uh, you know, I'm the only, like you said, I'm the only one with the, the gift or um, I've been anointed by God because of title or role or uh, whatever.
(12:14):
But I've also heard congregants say, I've been in congregations through our pastoral ministry, where I think the people want a king, they want a Yeah.
They've said, I think, because they're coming from corporate models or other churches with that, you know, kind of model.
And so they say we need one person where the buck stops here.
(12:35):
So I mean, is that human nature, is that sociological organizational function, or is that, uh, somehow, I don't know.
Not necessarily sinful, but like, what would you say to that? Yeah.
longing for a person.
Well, I do think, uh, that you've, you've touched on the right thing here when you talk about a culture.
(12:58):
Um, what, what is involved with the fact that, Su, every Sunday, when we come in into our churches, all the chairs are face-forward and people sort of file in and get their seats, and over time they get in the same seats.
And in most cases, in most evangelical churches, in most liberal churches, people are totally passive.
(13:24):
If you're in a liturgical church, you stand and sit and you recite, et cetera more than you do if you're in an evangelical church.
And then the, uh, order of the service leads toward a pastor who will preach for, uh, anywhere from 30 to 45 to 55 minutes.
And where did this come from? You know, where, where and why do we have a platform? Why, why is the pastor on a platform behind a pulpit? Where did this come from? The, the lecture hall mentality where the pastor seems to think that he is a.
(14:00):
Okay, I'll just use the negative language, a one man show and that everybody's job is to sit there with open mouths like little birds in a nest, uh, receiving everything.
Where, where did this come from? Um, and I, I'm not asking the question because I think it's just a history of, it's the culture that we have, but if you suddenly decided that we're gonna break up into small groups on Sunday morning in your megachurch the next week.
(14:31):
And then you said, then we're gonna do this every week.
I think half the people would leave.
This is not what, this is not what they've bargained for, cuz this is not the culture that they're used to.
So I do think that it's a culture.
I also think there's a money thing involved.
Hmm.
Um, right, let's just say this, that we hire someone.
(14:53):
I'm not saying in our church, but, uh, okay, let's just say that we're looking for a pastor.
Our church, your church, my church whose ever church.
There's just a search.
You look for someone with a, a seminary degree and they are specialist.
So all of a sudden now you have in the church and you're in Boone, Iowa, is, you may have heard of Boone.
(15:16):
Iowa.
That's right.
All right, so you're in Boone, Iowa, and you may be the only person in the entire community.
I don't know anything about Boone, Iowa, but I remember the days when people talked about Boone, Iowa, and um, you have one person with a theological pedigree and a theological degree, and they're trained.
They can read Greek, they can read Hebrew.
(15:38):
They've studied church history.
They're really good at what they do.
There's no competition in a sense, there's no rival.
That person and that person alone, in a sense, is qualified to do what is required from the platform on Sunday.
But, uh, I grew up in the seventies in my Christian faith.
(16:01):
Ray Stedman proved to me that churches that exercise spiritual gifts and allow different people to do what they're gifted to do, become a more spiritual based community that can thrive and flourish in ways that a solo pastor group can never do.
(16:24):
And so I, I really believe in the exercise of spiritual gifts, Sunday morning.
It is a different animal altogether, uh, because the way we've structured it and the culture, it is a performance in that.
And I don't mean that in a negative way of the musicians and the pastor.
That's what happens.
(16:45):
structure of it is, is designed that That's exact, it all is rooted in that.
And then of course, there's money.
We're paying one person.
We expect them to do more than just, uh, push paper in their office during the week and keep things moving in the right direction.
Yeah.
So, um, I have, I have, uh, a really ambivalent attitude towards senior pastors in that, first of all, I've, I see a pragmatism about it all.
(17:19):
Yeah.
I could see why it happens.
But secondly, I know that it distorts the giftedness of a church.
I'll give you an example.
I remember when I was teaching at the institution where, where we both were at the same time, way back, way back when movies were still black and white, okay? And uh, I was asked to teach at a Sunday school class at a church, and I thought to myself, they are paying three different professors every week to teach Sunday school at this church.
(17:59):
And I remember thinking, yeah, they paid, yeah, like $50 a week or $25.
It wasn't very much money, but weren't getting, but you're no, they were paying, they were paying people to teach Sunday school.
And I remember thinking, talking, I was a young professor.
I remember talking to other professors thinking they are not training people in their church to teach.
(18:20):
There are no teachers being, being raised up to teach adults in that church.
And it's a, it's a surfeit of, of, of ability to be able to draw on what, two or three seminaries in the area, some Christian colleges and have all these people available.
Sure.
It's really good for the people in the church, but they're not developing their gifts.
(18:42):
And that's the other side.
The pragmatism works, but the, um, lack of developing giftedness in the church to me is a very serious implication of the senior church, senior pastor model.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I hear you saying, correct me if I'm wrong, I mean it's, it's not anywhere the Bible.
(19:06):
I mean, pastor is, but it's not nec.
Is it inherently wrong? I guess that's my question.
Is it inherently flawed, would you say, Okay.
Uh, I do think there are pastors.
pragmatic, but there's the gifts side, and right.
yeah.
I mean, there are pastors in the New Testament, but I, there's no indication of a s of a solo pastor, a single pastor, we would call a senior pastor, but I, I also don't think that we should expect that there's no choir directors either.
(19:37):
There's no musicians, you know, so I don't think we should expect everything to be there.
Yeah.
the, so the senior pastor model is inherently flawed Mm.
in what it will produce a church if the senior pastor hogs the power.
(19:59):
Okay.
Okay.
So in other words, there are some senior pastors who are facilitators in giftedness, and they're going to empower other people to share that platform and to share leadership.
There are some senior pastors who are going to be very jealous of their status and envious of anybody else who just might be able to stand up on that platform and preach a good sermon.
(20:30):
Um, those are the, those is, you know, then it gets back to character.
But, so I, I would say this, it's flawed.
But I don't think it is fatally flawed.
Okay.
Gotcha.
I'm, I'm thinking when you're saying all this, I'm picturing, I'm a basketball fan.
We talked about, you know, a point guard, a good point guard will be, can score, but they're all, they're, they're also just as much about giving assists, so the whole team wins.
(20:58):
Yes.
And that, and their job is to guide the team and they will know what contribution they need to make at what point, I mean, magic Johnson was brilliant at this.
I don't think LeBron James is as good as Magic Johnson at this, um, 22 year old son who's a huge LeBron fan, but he probably won't listen to this cuz it's his mom's thing.
But you will listen to the fact that O Oscar Robertson was a great point guard for the Milwaukee Bucks.
(21:25):
And he, um, he knew how to distribute the ball and he knew when to take over and when and when to hold back.
And I think a good senior pastor who facilitates the ministries of others who distributes power, who empowers other people, who trains other people to become leaders, is the sort also that, when he or she retires, is easily replaced because they've put themselves in a position where they're not the only person, you know.
(22:00):
Um, Skye Jethani did this study, this was, uh, maybe 15 years ago, but I, I sat down with him in a restaurant in Wheaton and he told me he had been re studying for a year, uh, working I think at Christianity Today, at the time.
Megachurches and he said none of them has not, one of them has a succession plan that is going to work because everything is based on them.
(22:28):
Mm-hmm.
Um, I was told recently of a megachurch pastor who was resigning and they sent out, you know, they had all the people who were looking for these jobs, uh, who looked for people like this, and no one wanted the job.
Right.
No one wanted the job cuz no one was that person.
yeah, I'm talking to, to, I have friends who are in search firms where they're trying to replace those pe- one person type things.
(22:53):
You know, certainly Willow most notably, but others, and they're just saying, the, the next generation doesn't, doesn't want it.
They don't want you know, and it built up so much around kind of the one person, Yeah.
even intentionally, but it just kind of did grow up into a big tree around that.
And nobody wants that I, I, I would say, Angie, that there are always some ego-centric, uh, young, young, uh, studs who think they want those, those big platforms.
(23:23):
But, but do they have the giftedness of a Rick Warren or an Andy Stanley or, uh, whoever you talk about, do they have that giftedness? That is very rare.
Yeah.
Plus what a history that those like Rick Warren had with his church and his age had, you know, everything had grown with him.
(23:45):
Yeah.
And the gravitas grew yeah.
Yeah, there.
Yeah.
Keller broke his into pieces before he stepped down and then, you know, I mean, did he do that on purpose for that reason? did.
I don't, they did it on purpose for that reason.
I don't know, but certainly on purpose.
Oh yeah.
I knew he'd broken it into pieces, Yeah, but, um, I didn't know if that was sort of his succession plan.
(24:09):
yeah, that's a pretty clever idea.
But I'm sitting here thinking, uh, cuz we went to Willow Creek for 10 years.
They couldn't do that.
They had a mega campus and a mega platform and a mega budget and a mega building and a mega parking lot.
You gotta break up a lot of stuff to go with With Yeah.
they already were, I think, maybe uniquely situated with not big being big land.
(24:35):
You know, a landmass in the city of New York.
They couldn't.
Yeah.
By the way, New York was, well some folks, there's an, you know, a whole nother school of thought about just around APESTs.
So the whole fivefold ministry, Ephesians 4:11, you know, and saying you know, church should have all five re represented in leadership.
So that's kinda the opposite, you know, from one person has to have all these five, like, what's your take on the application of APEST for this? Is that body or is that senior leadership or all of the above.
(25:06):
With what your understanding of the, the gifts that you know, you're so passionate about? The um, the first thing I would say about APEST is that there aren't five.
There, there are four.
So pastor teacher is a single one, and this this really irritated me.
When I first heard about APEST, I whole franchise.
Scot, we That's right.
I'm this, why are you distinguishing pastor from teacher in this text? The second thing is I've, um, I've been profoundly disappointed in the way, uh, the people who are advocates for APEST have defined the terms.
(25:43):
You know, like an apostle is an entrepreneur.
I'm sorry, that's not what an apostle is in the New Testament.
An apostle is someone who has been called by Jesus.
You know, I mean, I don't think there are apostles today.
So, you know, I mean, you can use it in a general as a missionary.
Um, a prophet is someone who hears from God then.
(26:04):
So I've, I've paid attention to people who have defined the terms who are really big in this, and I don't like their definitions at all.
So I, I find it to be quite misguided in its, um, zeal to think that this is the solution to church leadership and churches.
(26:26):
Yeah.
Um, I, as I've told several of these people, I grew up with Ray Stedman when I was in college and he focused on that passage and he had four gifts and he didn't define any of the terms, the way these people are defining it.
And, um, so I really do believe that that's a good passage to focus on for, let's just say sorts of spiritual manifestations of leadership in local church communities.
(26:57):
Okay.
I'm all for that.
Yeah.
but I don't think it, it's a solution.
And, and I have also said this, that, you know, it's so odd that the second century didn't even talk about these things.
So why, why are they not talking about these things for their local churches? Um, and I don't like the fact that people pigeonhole themselves.
(27:21):
I, I believe this, Angie, I believe that the Spirit of God uses us in context and that is a gift to the church.
We are not in a sense given a gift that we contain, that we hold and possess, and that no one else has that gift.
(27:46):
I, I don't look at it.
I look at it as sort of moments of the spirit using us in the context of a church that needs to be received as a gift rather than something that we possess and have and own and control.
So I've had a, a mentor once said she believed God, she said God doesn't call the gifted, God gifts the called.
(28:12):
And sounds like, I mean, for kind of, for like Yeah.
circumstance or environment and gifts you to not like I'm a gifted, but wouldn't you say you're a gifted teacher? Um, yeah, I mean, I don't like to sit around say that I'm a gifted teacher, but yes, I think I have the gift of teaching.
Yeah.
I don't think I have the gift of preaching, but I do preach every now and then.
(28:35):
And, uh, I'd rather not do that that much.
I like, I like teaching in a classroom.
I like writing, and I like studying.
So those are the sorts of things I do.
and I, and you hold though and steward? I think I, I like the idea that I stewarded it.
(28:55):
Okay.
That it, you know, it's, it's when, when I'm exercising the gift, let's say in a way that is a gift to the church, Yeah.
then I'm, uh, stewarding the gift of God.
But only then, only then, so, so for instance, I don't think I have the gift when I'm sitting, uh, in my backyard.
(29:24):
Um, looking at birds, Gotcha.
Yeah.
so, and we have an oriole in our backyard recently, which is really fun.
So there's a function that that with a, and then in a particular context that's it's the gifted in that Yeah.
Yeah.
of time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I only time I, uh, and I don't like to say I have the gift.
(29:45):
The only time I exercise the gift is when I'm in the context of the church community and I'm being prompted by the spirit to do teaching.
Tell me church community, what you mean by that as I don't think you mean just your local congregation, No.
Any, yeah, any time that I'm being called upon to.
So I, I think in writing books and writing books, Yeah.
(30:09):
that, that's a part of the, uh, I steward the gift of teaching when I'm writing, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this idea of, um, uh, the great teacher Scot McKnight, or the great pastor, like there's this, uh, my husband, uh, as a pastor, people would call him pastor.
Like that was his name.
Like, that was a bestowed, you know, all the time, kinda thing.
(30:33):
Um, instead of just a, a title for the moment or a Yeah.
I, yeah.
Uh, I, I, I don't know why, but when I first started teaching at Trinity, way back in and when I, uh, I started teaching before I had my PhD.
And I asked students to call me Scot, and I said, I don't want you to call me Mr.
(30:55):
'cause that's a high school teacher.
So you can call me a professor, but my name is Scot.
That's the name my parents gave me.
And we are brothers and sisters in Christ.
So when I got my PhD, the students said, now do we call you doctor? I said, definitely not.
I'm still Scot and you and we are brothers and sisters and I've always done this.
It was really odd though when I began to teach undergrads and they were 18 years old and they were calling me Scot.
(31:22):
yeah.
I thought, okay, that's a little different.
But, uh, I only have a few students who've called me doctor since left Trinity.
So this is now what? It's almost 30 years.
Yeah.
And, uh, it's rare that a student will call me doctor and when they first do it, I always say, my name is Scot and I'm happy with that.
(31:45):
But if they insist on it, I don't tell 'em they can't.
But it's rare.
So I, I think I want to be seen as a brother in Christ more than a title.
Yeah.
So talk to me, you are at, I believe, an Anglican church.
Yes.
With, with a lot of which, so liturgical, there's a lot of structure and offices and you are, you hold an office, correct? Uh, You're ordained an, yeah, I, I'm a deacon.
(32:16):
I'm a deacon and I'm a canon theologian, so Okay.
I don't think I've ever been told that those are offices, but I suppose they are.
Ah, We won't tell anybody.
my, uh, my bishop is Todd Hunter.
Yep.
Bishop we have, he's very charismatic kind of guy.
You know, he was in charge of the Vineyard Church for a while, so, um, we don't, we don't have a whole lot of, uh, kissing of rings, let's put it that way.
(32:45):
So what does that title slash function slash office mean to you as the holder of that? Why did you that or, or were asked to? Why did you agree to that? So, I was approached some leaders in ACNA, the Anglican Church of North America, to become ordained as a deacon, not in order to become a priest, but so that I could become a canon theologian to a bishop, if that is, that's what happened.
(33:16):
So I became a deacon with the plan that I would become a canon theologian.
It was because of my writing and teaching and speaking, uh, ministries that, uh, they asked me to do that.
So my responsibility is to advise my bishop he seeks advice.
(33:38):
Okay.
So he, he did something on being a canon theologian.
I'm just picking a little bit at you.
He, he could.
Sure he could.
Yeah.
That would be okay with me too.
I don't need, I don't need the title.
yeah.
Uh, I don't, I don't like that stuff.
I don't get carried away with that stuff.
But I do like having a, I do like to have a, a clerical shirt because then I don't ever have to think about what to wear to church on Sunday.
(34:05):
does make it easy.
Yes.
I like that.
Yeah.
really like that.
You have the, the.
Yeah.
There's a little, it's a tab that fits into a shirt.
Yeah.
yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So from your writing and experience with Church Called Tov, and you know, you've got a follow up coming, I know that you're working on, um, probably coming out next year, but, and, and your New Testament scholarship, uh, know, the various models you've seen that we've seen, you know, or people make the case for in scripture, if you were designing a church from the ground up, you're part of a planting team.
(34:41):
What do you think is the most flourishing? Is there a most flourishing Uh, yeah.
My daughter and I have a book coming out in September called Pivot.
In the last three letters of Pivot are tove backwards.
Pretty clever.
cover design and It's really, It's very it is really cool.
So I, I had nothing to do with it.
(35:01):
Um, the, the, um, If I was designing, so in other words, a church planting situation, um, first of all, I wouldn't, um, I don't believe that there is an ideal model that's perfect.
I don't believe that there are ideal people that are, are gonna be perfect, and I don't think that there is such a thing as an ideal church.
(35:26):
So we would start with a, with a gathering of people.
And, uh, those who had the gifts, uh, that began to manifest themselves, the character that would back it up according to our judgment, recognizing that St.
Paul, uh, has some pretty good ideas that St.
Augustine developed, that, uh, are fallen.
(35:49):
And, um, I would foc I would want to focus on Jesus, following Jesus, listening to Jesus.
That he would be, I would have a centered set approach to theology so that we would focus on Jesus as the center, it there, keep him there, and that it would be about, uh, leadership would be in a sense rooted in quality of followership over time.
(36:22):
And we would make mistakes in judging who that followership would be.
I would also want there to be, let's say, uh, term limits on major positions in the church Including that yes, for sure, Wow.
would you suggest.
(36:45):
Uh, let's, Now if you're Anglican, you don't really have this sort of thing and your method, you know, I mean, the Methodist, the Methodists do, do this.
Every three years they're getting shuffle, shuffled around Yeah.
I, I would say, um, five years with one renewable, uh, time.
(37:07):
Yeah.
Um, But the, here's where I have a problem.
If it is a really good facilitating, distributing, delegating type pastor, I don't have a much a problem with a long term pastorate.
Yeah, there's certain ministry that happens after 10, 15, 20.
(37:28):
But I mean, like if you, if youre the type of pastor that makes sure that other people are platformed and, and get, are empowered to do their gifts and they get the credit in a sense so that it's not all about you.
I think your durability in a church is safer, but if you're the one of the show and you're really good at it, not safe for the community in his long-term health.
(37:55):
You're, first of all, you're not that good.
Only Jesus is.
And secondly, you know, you're gonna shut out other people and, and other people's gifts are not gonna be developed.
I've been trying to take some lessons from what the church can learn from InterVarsity or other campus ministries where you have to regenerate student leadership every two, three or Mm.
(38:16):
You have a staff person that stays on maybe five years, 10 years longer, but they're never the center of the show.
They're always regenerating that student leadership.
You know, I like our pastor, uh, Amanda.
All right.
But I do think that, um, that, um, that, that a single leadership tends not to develop leadership in other people.
(38:48):
And, but here's something even more significant.
If you know that you are going only gonna be the leader for two or three years, then everybody else will begin to flourish.
What happens in many churches, and I don't think this is the case in our church at all, we have a lot of people participating.
(39:09):
I, I'm amazed at it.
We really, we do have a senior pastor, but it doesn't look like it in that, in the sense of having someone in charge of everything.
But, um, what happens when everybody realizes that we're all responsible for what's going on? We don't have passive people coming in, watching and then leaving.
(39:33):
If you don't wanna participate and contribute, you don't join.
And that's, and that's the culture I think that we need to develop in churches.
Yeah.
That's very counter-cultural to let's attract the most.
Yeah.
I don't believe in that at all.
I don't think that helps.
(39:54):
All that does is just take people from other, just takes people from other churches.
That's what it does.
I mean it's, you know, you can talk about evangelism.
I remember Willow Creek used to say they adv, they baptized a thousand people a year, but about 900 of them were Catholics, you know, so it was just Catholics leaving Catholic churches joining and, and maybe, you know, a lot of them probably had never had a born again experience, but I wouldn't necessarily say they, they weren't Christians.
(40:22):
Uh, so we can get into that at some other time.
But um, uh, I really believe that, um, churches are best, say, when they are below 150.
Yeah.
More people are engaged in smaller churches than in bigger churches.
Yeah.
(40:42):
The more people who are engaged, the more the church is being the church.
Yeah.
Yeah.
but what from my observation, I mean, the bigger churches are about scalability.
I mean, there's a, that's, that's the point is the more you have, the fewer, you don't, you don't have to get everybody.
I mean, I think behind it sometimes there's a, a, well, we can scale, so we can have 5,000 people.
(41:07):
With fewer people at the top that is too messy.
Scot, you're suggesting messiness.
Yeah, well, I think, uh, I'm a New Testament guy, you know, so I I like to look at what's going on in the New Testament and say we need to be more like that.
Not that I think the early church was ideal, but I do think, uh, I, I know it's a fact that churches that are smaller have much higher participation and therefore, Christians are gonna grow in their giftedness, and the church is going to be more participa participatory than in those larger churches.
(41:49):
I've attended Willow Creek.
I could just roll in.
We, Kris and I could roll in, in our car, walk in, sit down, walk out, and never see a person we knew.
Yeah.
Other than the people on the platform, which we didn't, we didn't know them either, but we, we knew who they were.
They were celebrities.
(42:10):
So what, what, what would you say, what would you exhort or challenge, uh, those who are, who are senior pastors today? One thing I would say is giving away, I mean the work of the ministry, training I, I would say, um, measure your participation level.
(42:32):
And measure success in a sense, your spiritual giftedness by the higher, the percentage of people who are engaged in participating in various ministries in the church.
You know, Angie, I don't know a number for this.
I've never heard of a number for this, Yeah.
(42:52):
but I think, I think it's pretty, the bigger the churches, it's like 5% or less that are actually involved.
Smaller churches, I think it's, it's much higher.
So let's just say are 50% of the people in your church actually engaged in the church? And then let's ask, why would we even measure only 50%? Shouldn't we strive for a hundred percent engagement and participation? Yeah.
(43:22):
Yeah.
So do you think growth happens from inside or outside or both? Because some folks, some of our brothers and sisters would hear this and say, but um, Jesus said we need to be out winning souls, whatever, bringing other people to Christ and bringing new people into the church.
Well, that, I mean, that's the gift of evangelism and that's the, that's the calling of church, uh, of Christians to be able to engage other people with the, uh, let's see.
(43:51):
With who Jesus is and getting other people to follow Jesus.
And I think it's the calling of the entire church, every person, um, but especially connected to certain kinds of giftedness and, uh, and, uh, church growing in that way is a, is a good thing.
Um, churches that don't ever baptize a new believer in, let's say five years, are not evangelizing.
(44:22):
Yeah, so it's both.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate you just, uh, kind of chewing on this a little bit with me.
I, I just, my experience, and I don't know about yours, but I got a bunch of, you know, I've got students who are pastors and or wanting to be past-, you know, seeking to be pastors.
(44:43):
And most of us in the church, leadership or lay, haven't even thought about this.
We've just swallowed the model.
Yeah.
And we, we haven't thought about it.
And, uh, yeah, I, I tell a story about how I was teaching ministry leadership.
I was teaching church the way I was taught it or experienced it and leadership the way I was taught it and experienced it and suddenly realized teaching to a model here.
(45:06):
I don't know how we got here or if I even buy this and I need to think about that if I'm teaching this.
But this, you know, you called it messy.
It's a revolution to think any other way.
I mean, uh, the whole culture, I mean, you and I teach at a seminary.
Our seminaries are an extension of the senior pastor model in churches.
(45:30):
That's who we're, that's who we're bringing up.
yeah, I can say I can, and I'm sure it's true at your seminary too, we have a lot of students in our seminary who are not planning on being senior pastors.
yeah.
They're just, questions if they yeah.
And they're just, they're just, uh, they wanna be, they wanna study the Bible more.
(45:52):
You know, they wanna be more gifted for the things that they're doing in their churches, but they don't wanna preach, they don't want to be the senior pastor.
They don't wanna put up with that crap.
You know, they, for sure.
yeah.
Yeah, So, Yeah.
Well, tell me what else you've got.
Pivot when, and that's coming out next year.
What else? What other three books are you working on? I, uh, you know, I'm doing four books a year for everyday bible studies, You.
(46:17):
Okay? so Yeah, there's a, I I, it's a 4-year, 16-book project.
I've stayed on schedule so far.
Uh, so that, and then I'm, um, I'm actually right now writing a book with a student who's a pastor.
He's a former student on deconstruction Nice.
(46:38):
and, uh, it's called right now, it's called Losing Religion Without Losing Jesus.
Yeah.
But it's sort of, uh, the sub theme of it is, uh, the exit interviews your church leaders never heard.
Is it why people leave the church and why the deconstruction is going on.
(46:58):
So I'm fascinated by this, uh, the tension that so many people feel, and one of the things is going on is exactly what we're talking about today.
It's not crystallized around a senior pastor, but it's crystallized around the church as an institution that's not living up to its expectations, Yeah.
(47:19):
so they're, walking away.
that in the, in the show notes for sure.
What's bringing you joy? Last question.
Bringing you joy this summer, and I haven't followed the Cubs.
Are they, are they bringing you joy or what else are you enjoying this summer? Well, my son, you know, we were Cub fans for a long time, but my son is now the Senior Scout for the Cleveland Guardians.
(47:40):
So I am a Cleveland Guardians so fan, and I don't watch Cub games.
They're left behind.
I changed teams like LeBron James Well, that's right.
You've announced your decision.
Yeah, that's Yeah, that's right.
So, um, um, we love, I have a new app called the Merlin app.
That identifies birds by their song.
(48:03):
Well, yeah.
You're a And I'm discovering all kinds, like there's a red-eyed verio and there are warbling verios and there are birds that we hear every day that I had no idea whether that's what we were hearing.
I'm not real good with sound, so I'm learning some of these bird sounds.
So it's been really fun to do this and um, and I'm, I'm enjoying the, the writing and our walking, uh, this summer.
(48:30):
The weather is beautiful Yeah.
we have mo um, some milkweed plants with potential Monarch eggs on 'em.
So we may be raising Monarchs in our little terrarium this summer.
Awesome.
That's great.
thanks so much for being, uh, on The Big C Church Podcast and chewing on this stuff with me.
(48:50):
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for all your contributions to the kingdom, the leaders you're raising up, and how you're just stewarding and all that, that God's given you.
Well, thank you Angie.
Good to see you and I'm glad I'm, I'm glad that we just chatted about this 'cause a lot of these things are things I've never, I've never written about and I, I don't really know sometimes what I believe about some of these things.
(49:12):
So it was fun to talk about.
Yeah, there you go.
I just gave you your next couple book ideas, so you're welcome.
Oh, thank you.
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