Loaded Terms with Terry Ishee

I'm sure you've experienced it before: someone uses a term you're familiar with, but with a slightly or altogether different meaning from how you've understood it.     For the inaugural episode of The Big C Church Podcast Angie talks with Terry Ishee, the Executive Director of Forge America, about these "Loaded Terms." We talk about why words matter, the danger and power of loaded terms, and what are some of the common terms that have very different meanings depending on who is using them. 

Honorable Mention: 

• Transforming Mission: Paradigm Shifts in Theology of Mission by David Bosch. 
• Forge America Missional Network. 
• Terry Ishee on X.

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Listen to more episodes and read more of Angie's work at angiewardphd.com

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Hello and welcome to The Big C Church Podcast where we have challenging conversations to better the body.
I'm your host, Dr.
Angie Ward.
Um, I, my guest today is my friend Terry Ishee.
Um, Terry is the Executive Director of Forge America.
He's been with Forge for over 10 years.

(00:27):
Um, but now he's Executive Director, so as part of that, broadly, he's just kind of cultivating missional leaders around the country and abroad.
And, um, as part of that, he is also host of the Forge America Podcast, co-host with Alan Bradford of the coho....
Forge America podcast, which I think is where um, we first got connected Terry.
So, That's correct.

(00:47):
I told you this before, uh, we hit record, but Terry, you are my very first recording for The Big C Church Podcast.
You may not be my first release.
We'll figure all that out Yeah.
You wanna tuck me way, way mid season when, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, um, uh, I am just delighted that you're the first person, and I picked you as my first person, because, um, I thought, one, you're a a professional.

(01:15):
You're a professional, a podcasting professional.
But, um, so you understand how this works from the other side of things, but also as a friend and in the short time we've known each other, you've just become a deeply valued friend and brother to me.
And I feel like I'm safe with you if something goes wrong on this.
And I feel like we can always just talk forever.

(01:36):
And so most of the time we're either on Zoom or like, or this type of thing, or we're at a conference and we have just a little time to kind of grab dinner and catch up.
So this time it's us just talking, but with record hit.
So thank you, Terry.
Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm honored and I feel the same.
Uh, you have just, I, I think the world of you and, uh, I love your writing, your thought leadership and, and again, just your friendship, uh, over the last couple of years.

(02:04):
I mean, I, you, you are our most repeat podcast guest on the Forge American Missional Podcast.
.5You're, you're one away, Angie, from being a five time I know I'm like the Alec Baldwin and Steve Martin of Saturday Night Live.
That's right.
I know I'm waiting for my shirt or whatever special honor I'm gonna get.
Yeah.
We'll get you a nice little, uh, smoking jacket and yeah, yeah.

(02:24):
That's what, that's what I need.
That's right.
That's right.
So, yeah.
So Terry, I said, uh, when we were communicating about this, I wanna talk with you about the idea of loaded terms or like, um, how we, a lot of times, discover that we're using the same words with people that we're talking with about church and ministry and leadership, but we're really coming at it from different dictionaries.

(02:48):
Um, and the impact that comes, and I first got introduced to this when I was, uh, in my PhD program, and by the way, I, in, you know, this, I introduced myself as your host, Dr.
Angie Ward, but you know, we're Angie and Terry, right? Just making sure.
Okay.
Yeah.
So in my doctoral program, I learned about it in research, how there's words you have assumptions about, but in like my dissertation, uh, I had to you know, oh, that may mean something different to the person who's reading or who doesn't, who's not familiar with that term.

(03:19):
Um, and so, and so that's where I first became aware of it, and then I started seeing.
Oh, I'm seeing this in at play a lot of places in ministry and in conversation, even, even with, um, family, marrying into a, a southern family and me coming from the Midwest, like we just understood different things differently.

(03:40):
So where did you first, do you have any recollection of this first became an awareness for you? Yeah.
You know, it's, it's funny, there are a couple of different spots, um, that I've experienced that sort of thing.
One inside the church and one outside the church.
Uh, outside the church, it happened super young.

(04:01):
I, I remember when I was in middle school about to go to high school, and, uh, I grew up in inner-city Houston and, um, spent tons of time, I was, did lots of athletics and enjoyed that.
And then when I got sent out to the country, uh, I remember showing up for football practice, and they would use this language, they would say certain things, and I'm like, okay.

(04:26):
I, I know that word, but the way that you say that word does not make sense, right? And so, th that was the first time I got where people say things and use words, that have these different meanings, and I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm lost.
I'm, I'm not a hundred percent sure what you mean when you use that word in this context.

(04:46):
So that was my first like, because it's a contextualization problem, right? It's context, it's using the word in a context.
Uh, so people, cultures all changed the, the context of a word.
But I didn't really, I mean, I was a stupid kid.
I, I, I don't, I didn't even really think about it.
I was like, well, this is football.
.99998808You know, who cares? I'm just the outsider, whatever.
That's right.
And then, uh, when I became a pastor, all of a sudden I was like, oh, language matters.

(05:10):
Like there's...
language matters.
And I remember, um, my wife, we were just having this conversation, uh, the other day.
We were doing a, a grant proposal and we were looking at, she's, she's a English, uh, uh, She's an English genius, so she got her degree in literature and all of these sorts of things.
And so she was doing the proofing and she came across a word and she's like, this word, you're using it as a verb, and this word's not a verb.

(05:36):
And I'm like, well, in our world it's a verb because we say it all the time, right? It's like, no.
And she's like, that's so weird.
And she was like, yeah.
You always say like "low-hanging fruit."
In education, we don't say that.
No one talks about low-hanging fruit.
Like what do you mean when you say low-hanging fruit? And I was like, I, I don't know.
It's low hanging fruit.
It's like just easy to grab, you know? And, and so it's, it, it just reminds me even from like, we live in the same household and, but she's in an education world.

(06:04):
I'm in a ministry world.
And these terms just came, just seemed to kind of pass us.
And so I am fascinated when I'm in the church world.
And, and it could be, sometimes it's denominations, but sometimes it's just age, you know, different generations.
And someone will say something and, and there are some words that are the, maybe words that someone's trying to recapture.

(06:31):
Uh, maybe it's in kind of an older word, ancient word, and it's like, oh, that's, that's dated.
But then sometimes you just throw a word like mission.
Yeah.
And now it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
What do you, when you say mission, what do you mean? Because when I say mission, I mean this.
Yeah.
And it, it, it is nuts.
It is really, really, it can be confusing, it can be disorienting.

(06:53):
And unfortunately, if you don't take the time to contextualize and really kind of dig into it, it can be harmful.
It, it can really hurt people and put some people in some bad spaces when you don't do the work of understanding each other's culture and language, uh, as you talk about some of these terms.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's, and let's put a, put in that pin in that, as far, that piece that you said about, um, how it can be harmful, and let's about some, like, examples of that.

(07:20):
But you brought such a great point about, um, like your wife said low-hanging fruit, and you're like, I don't know, it's just like, some of these are so, um, natural to us or deeply rooted that we're just like, well, of, duh.
I mean, to everybody else, we're just like, of course it means this.
And so we have like this deeply held emotional, or even theological um, so it's one thing to say, well, we just come at different dictionaries, but then to go like, but mine is...

(07:49):
mine's the real one.
Mine's the right one.
Yeah, that's right.
You know, the Jesus one, you know, That's right.
And, so that's, I just, I think that's, it's been, can be so powerful.
Um, uh, and so like my first example, one of my first that I heard in ministry was, well, not in ministry, not first time in ministry.
One of the first I remember was I was a student, uh, at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, which is a whole 'nother story we maybe will talk about some other time.

(08:17):
Right? But, um, uh, but I was saying something about how I was, we were, my family and I were seeking to live missionally.
That's the one you just talked about.
Right? And of is your world, missional.
And they immediately went, oh, me too.
And they meant "missionary," Mm-hmm.
"evangelism," "converting."

(08:38):
And I was like, ah.
And then they were like, wait, uh, yeah, well my family was a missionary for this many years.
And I was like, yeah, but I'm, look, I'm.
You know, the people I was talking like, if you and I talk missional, we, we mean one thing and we have an understanding of that.
But you talk about that with other people and, and for me.
So for me, because of that, "missional" makes me go, ugh.

(09:01):
And we've talked about a little kind of have this, this, not a check in my spirit, but like, ugh.
What do you mean by that? Because sometimes in, in my church experience and in evangelicalism, "missional" has been conquering for Jesus.
Mm.
Not, well, let me, tell me what, when I, when you say missional, what do you mean by that? Yeah.

(09:21):
Are you asking me? You're literally asking me.
Yeah.
So for me, missional is living a sent lifestyle.
So it is the, it is, so, it's the idea that in my everyday being, living, breathing, walking, uh, part of my, I, it's, it's an identity thing for me.
It's part of who I am and I am an image bearer of God, uh, created in his image.

(09:43):
But I'm also a sent one of that creator of, of Jesus and the Spirit.
So when I live my life, I, I'm, I, I live with purpose.
I live with a sent purpose.
And, and that purpose is not about recruiting.
It's not about converting.
It's about illuminating, revealing the rule and reign of God, the kingdom of God, helping people see the king and see the kingdom.

(10:08):
Yeah.
And I can do that with my words, I can do that with my actions, um, depending on the level of relationship, I can illuminate them to, hey, I'm doing this because of this.
Or, it could just be like, man, that Terry's a really good guy.
Right? But again, I'm, I, I want the kingdom and the king, um, the, the fragrant flourishing of what that looks and smells like, to be evident.

(10:33):
And so that's the purpose in which I live.
So I am a sent one to do that on behalf of King Jesus and the kingdom come.
Yeah.
Yeah, Fragrant flourishing is not what I had come to over, you know, many years in, in the church to, when I think of mission missional.
It's what I said, you know, it's that we're going to other lands.

(10:55):
It's, uh, we, you know, we're, we're, we're conquering for Jesus, we're winning souls we're, it's, exclusively about conversion and it was also kind of a position of power or accomplishment.
Yeah.
Coming.
So combine that with my leadership training and experience, you know, and education where it's like, uh, the "mission-driven" organization and you have a mission and you have to accomplish, you know, and, and it's almost like a military, That's right.

(11:22):
conquest kind of thing.
So just you and I as friends and, and brother and sister and Christ, like have comp, you know, came from completely different understandings.
And, and even, even though now my head goes, yes, that.
Fragrant, flourishing kingdom, you know, that kind of thing.
When I hear the word, I still go, oh, and have that.

(11:44):
Yeah, and, and I, my background, my, my educational background and all of that, my, like wheelhouse is organizational leadership.
So mission in the context of organizational leadership is very different from mission in regards to like the Missio Dei or missional.
Um, and yeah, and so even in that world and cuz I that, that I spent a lot of time helping people wrestle with organizational mission.

(12:10):
My sweet spot is helping organizations find alignment in their, their organizational mission, what they do, who we are, and what we do, and finding that alignment with the mission of God.
So how, how can you have, so those two missions, mission and mission in alignment.
So really what, what do we do? How do we align with what God is already doing? What, what is God up to in restoring and putting all things back to the way that he intends for them to be? And for me, one of the things that has been super helpful, um, because at a younger age when I, you know, I gave my life to Jesus when I was 15 and, and at 17 I felt a response to a calling into ministry.

(12:55):
Um, Baptist background, all of that, and mission was that very thing.
Mission was for the elite.
You know, Christian Seals who were gonna go overseas and they were gonna do something big.
They were gonna be the next Hudson Taylor or the next, you know, the, the, the next Lottie Moon or whoever.
And, uh, it was, it was reserved for special, special people.

(13:17):
And you get to, you get to hear 'em speak twice a year cuz they come on furlough and that's right.
They'll be up, you know, and they'll come and Sunday night we have special guests and all of that.
And it was like, wow, God must really, really, have put a blessing on them.
And so it was, and and again, a lot of it was like they were off to far away places and it was a little bit of, it was the follow up.

(13:41):
So, so much of the original missional, "missional" work was rooted in colonialism.
It was, like you said, to use the word conquering.
It was like, we're gonna go conquer.
Um, and just like even studying the history of missionary work in Hawaii is such a heartbreaking read, uh, because so much of it was we just want you to adapt and do the things that we do.

(14:08):
And it's funny, you go to Hawaii and you will find, uh, you will find homes built in Hawaii that are just ripped right out of Colonial Massachusetts.
I bet.
It's just so weird.
And it's like, how did that get here? And it's because that those missionaries said, well, this is the right way.
Our way is the right way.
And I'm just so thankful to be influenced and mentored from afar by, you know, individuals like Leslie Nubigan, uh, and more than anyone, you know, Michael Frost.

(14:40):
But even through, even beyond Mike.
Because so much of Michael's work is rooted in the work of David Bosch, uh, who's a South African missiologist, who live lived, was living during apartheid, very colonial kind of expression of life.
So he was so familiar with this idea of colonialism and he, his work is, is a really a masterpiece of pulling apart the idea of mission as recruitment, conversion, to more, no, no, no.

(15:16):
All God's up to is letting people see how wonderful He is.
That the mission that we get to participate in is just letting people see how awesome God is.
But it's lost in translation.
And so we say these words, it's loaded.
People have their assumptions and they don't, if, if, if it's not checked, if it's not, if there's not conversation in relationship, which I think is the key 'cause that's what's missing.

(15:39):
Yeah.
Oh yeah, yeah, sure.
Missional.
Yeah, I'm all about that.
And then they go do their thing and we're two ships passing in the night in completely different directions.
Different directions.
A hundred percent.
Well, so, um, what are some, let's talk about, let's just kinda throw, what are some other loaded terms that, um, you've become aware of? I mean, missional is big, obviously, 'cause that's what you do.

(16:02):
That's in your title.
Yeah, yeah.
name.
You said one when we were just, you know, you talked about, you said you answered a call, that you received a call to ministry and I would say the same thing when I was a college student.
I felt a call to ministry and you and I both know what that meant.
I think we mean vocational.
That's right.
ministry.
But I think, I think that's a loaded term that we probably, you know, we, in ministry, I'm doing air quotes, you know, we're thinking that, like, that's professional ministry, but really, we're, like, you know, people, well, I'm not in ministry.

(16:35):
It's like, well, really, we all, all should be, you know? That's one of 'em, like, are there others that you can think of off the top of your head? Yeah, I, you know, even, even beyond the call to ministry, I think you could go a little more vague and just "calling" in general, you know? Um, and that, and that's something, you know, I, my first 12 years of ministry, uh, vocational ministry was steeped in next generation adolescent, uh, kind of ministry and, just the conversations around, I gotta figure out God's calling in my life.

(17:08):
What's God's unique calling for me? And I mean, that is, I mean, just talk about, I.
A a, a box full of kittens.
I mean, you're all over the place.
You just, they're, they're, I mean, to try to sort what you're thinking and feeling and how do you process and all of that.
And so that "calling" is one that, that always, even to this day, I find that one coming back quite a bit is like, I've gotta find my calling and I've got a 17 year old going off to college next year.

(17:36):
And so that's something that trying to work through and, you know, and just reminding her that, you know, God's calling is, is there, there is.
It's very general, and you know, God, God is good.
As long as, long as you're in alignment with him, you can really go do what you want.
That's, that's the beauty of freedom, right? And so, yeah.
Um, I'm thinking, uh, there's a couple I, I harp on my doctoral students at Denver Seminary and their thesis, they talk about, um, I said, "biblical" is one.

(18:05):
Mm.
So whose, whose translation, whose version, whose understanding? Yeah.
Uh, because we have at last count 40,000 plus denominations around the world.
All based on their understanding of "biblical."
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bible based.
Yeah.
No, that's good.

(18:26):
Like, biblical worldview.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. 220 00:18:29,672.5 --> 00:18:30,545 Whose? Yeah.
Yeah.
Um.
Biblical, "gospel" is another one that I think has become, you know, general understandings.
Yeah, Yeah.
And I think that's one of the things in the last, it feels like that word has kind of, not that it's gone underground, um, but it, it had a hot moment, right? Everything was gospel this and gospel-centered and all of that, probably 10, 15 years ago.

(18:54):
And I just re, I remember.
You know, I am a seminary dropout.
Uh, but, uh, I just remember I was like, I've been in ministry for 15 years and they keep saying this gospel thing and they are, I don't know what you mean by this anymore, because it was so used in so many different directions.
And I remember that was the one where like, I've just remember feeling really embarrassed.

(19:15):
I was like, okay, I've gotta go study this word.
What is what? Because people were using it for so many different things.
I'm like, Yeah.
Okay.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Okay.
That story.
It's got, yeah.
And then it was just, it was because it, it is that, that might be the most loaded word, even more than "mission" or "missional" for me.
That's the one that I've seen.
I mean, people pack in a lot of baggage with that word, and that one for sure is, is is a kind of hotbed word for certain denominations or, you know, you know, theological leanings, you know? Yeah, for sure.

(19:51):
Yeah.
Yeah, Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, yeah, when I, when I hear, uh, you know, um, one of my brothers from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary use gospel, uh, you know, or the Gospel Coalition, that's a different understanding, Yeah.
Than I've heard from others.
And, uh, yeah.
I'm trying to think.
Let's see.
"Christian" can be another one.

(20:12):
Christian.
Yeah.
You know, it's like, uh, well this is the.
I don't know.
Just as a, as a, as an adjective for something, you know, it means something.
And for some people it's a total turnoff, and other people go, this means I need to do business with this person.
Yeah.
A, a a, another loaded word.
And there's, I'll, I'll give you two.
And they're, they're, they're really related.
Um, and they're, they're, they're cringe words for me that, to the point where it's like every time someone says it, I instantly go into, Great, way to describe it.

(20:40):
Like Yeah. 262 00:20:41,97.5 --> 00:20:41,537.5 Ew.
And it's one of those things where I feel like I have to, like, I have to, uh, I have to ask for forgiveness on the back end because I, I often, without asking permission, I go straight into like soapbox, you know, on it.
And it, and it's the, the two words.
moment.
That's right.
The two words are community and fellowship.

(21:00):
Oh, tell me more about those.
Well, it's just, you know, one, people love using community.
It's like, oh, community this, oh, we gotta build community, be a community.
And I think we've just watered the term down so much.
It's like, okay, what, what is the purpose of community? And, and fellowship's the same way, you know, fellowship, you, it can be reduced to, we just share a meal together.

(21:23):
Yeah.
I feel you say fellowship, I picture Fellowship Hall church I grew up at, and I, I picture really good food, a pitch-in or a potluck kind of thing.
I mean it was fun and great, but I don't think it's to what the Bible talks about koinonia.
That's right.
Yeah.
And, and, and even like the idea of community fellowship, koinonia, it, it, it, it, it should speak.

(21:46):
When we, when we study it, it speaks more to a, a diatribe of this, this rubbing of, of two individuals rubbing together.
It's the iron sharpens iron.
It is, there's purpose, right? And so Alan Hirsch uses the word communitas, right? So Alan loves these anthropological words, and he ushers them in from an anthropological world into a, a theological world, and then that's, that's that, maybe that's another podcast is made up words, right? So not loaded words, made up words.

(22:15):
a podcast on Alan's, um, made up words.
language.
That's right.
Um, but it's this idea of shared purpose, relationship community.
And so, but you just hear people all the time and they get so excited and they galvanize and rally people around community.
And I'm like, but is that just mean we're gonna meet on Wednesday nights for, you know, mediocre appetizers and you know, a mediocre Bible study? You know, like, what, what, what are we, yeah.

(22:44):
we're parallel spectating.
That's right.
Yeah.
We're, we're, we, we share a pew together or we share a row together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or we, we, we, we shared 15 words while you got your coffee, and I got my coffee in the, in the, in the lobby.
And then we go in and so, but it's like, well, we're a church built on community.
I was like, well, really? What do you mean by that? And so again, it's the watered down, ver, I mean, again, it's, it's words, language being watered down to mean something that's not quite maybe what it should mean or maybe what other people, because I've heard people who have a great definition of community and they'll speak with community and they're, and it's, and they'll talk about it.

(23:20):
And at first I'm like, oh gosh, another, you know, community, I've heard it, I'm bored already.
Right then they'll like unpack it and I'm like, okay, if that's what you mean by community, beautiful.
That's wonderful.
Right? And so, Yeah, you said, sometimes it's things are so loaded or they become.
To some people, they're loaded and to others they're empty or devoid or they're just kind of watered down.

(23:43):
And so you have one person like you who's going that like, don't mess with that word.
Yeah.
means something big to me.
And yeah, Yeah.
there other others? I, got another one.
go.
Go.
And this one, I'm, I, you know, Hey, you gotta make fun of yourself.
You gotta pick on, you gotta pick on yourself.
And so I'm in, I'm in the missional incarnational world, you know, pioneering, church planting, all that.

(24:08):
the cool guy.
You've got like those of you I'm not cool.
No, not at all.
No, you're, you're 10 times cooler than me, Angie.
And so, uh, except that you root for the Denver Nuggets, which, oh my gosh.
That's just, sorry.
Sorry.
Yeah.
But.
By the way, I, I have a questionnaire for people who are on the show and I, anything else you'd like me know? And Terry's thing was this very, very holy, very deep.

(24:31):
The Houston Rockets are still ahead of you in championships.
That's right, we have two.
You have your first welcome to the club.
Um, yes.
And so.
But you got, you gotta, you gotta poke fun of yourself.
You gotta be willing to take one on the chin.
And I think one of the most loaded words that are being tossed around now, um, is, is the idea of church.

(24:55):
What is church and micro church? And I did not pay for this placement, by the way, watching and listening.
But this is what this whole podcast, I mean, our conversations are about.
Right.
A lot That's right.
We, talk about, oh, church, and I, I do, I'm very, I wanna be flexible when I think about Ecclesia, so I want to be generous when we talk about what church is and what church could be.

(25:25):
But I, I can admit and confess that I have brothers and sisters in my, my, my end of the pool.
Who are maybe a little too generous, a little too flexible in saying this counts as church, because I do ha you know, we talk about, you know, one of the terms we'll throw around and say, well, there's an ecclesial minimum.

(25:51):
Ecclesial minimum, right? If you have these things, um, then thumbs up, you can be church and, and again, I wanna be generous and I want to be helpful, but, uh, I mean if everything is church, then nothing is church.
And so there has to be something.
So that's one of those that I think, and that's the one, you know, at the end of the day, community, mission, all of those words, uh, we can get into an alley and fight it out and that's fine.

(26:17):
Church is the word though, that we have to be there.
There's actually something to be lost in that word.
I can, I can lose missional.
Like I can, because I can explain what I mean about that kind of lifestyle and be able to like, yeah, we don't have to use that word anymore.
Same thing with community, fellowship, all of that.

(26:38):
But if we lose the word church, if we lose that word, Yeah.
It makes it insanely different.
And I've seen people try to lose it.
Oh, well, it's a, a community, a faith community or a community of believers and all of those sorts of things.
But I mean, church is, it's, it's a founda, it's one of the foundational words in our language.

(26:58):
Yeah.
We have to really make sure that, and I don't want to get combative or fight for it.
That's not my posture, but it is something that's like, okay, guys, let's, let's make sure that we don't.
Like, let's not water it down so much that it means nothing.
Yeah, I think we need to fight kind of together for, That's right.

(27:19):
What about like gospel or Christian, I mean, you said church, like you can, you could lose missional, like what about Yeah.
That's a, that's a good, you know.
Hmm.
I think I've been one of the ones who, who's thrown off the word gospel.
Yeah.
To the point where I hear it, I almost like, oh, can we find another word? Like, you know, cause I do a lot of organizational, uh, uh, training and working but it is a loaded term, right? So we It's a very loaded term.

(27:46):
the yeah.
Um, Christian, You know, people say, well, I'm a Jesus follower, I'm a Jesus follower or, yeah.
like I say, people say, you know, gospel.
I, I, I say, well, I'm person of the good news.
I, I'm not sure landed either.
I go, know, what do you mean, you know? Yeah.
Yeah.
And again, it's one of those words where, you know, language and, and I am not, uh, articulate at all.

(28:11):
That's not, that's not, I'm not in, you know, really.
Oh, I'm, I like, you know, Michael Frost, I, I read some of his work and I'm just like, how in the world can a human being.
Yeah.
Write and talk in that manner.
It's unbelievable.
Yeah.
Um, like I truly believe Mike must have had AI before everyone else did.
And he's just some, some, cause some computer is spitting it.

(28:33):
He is the AI.
That's right.
everything.
right.
And so it's, it's a amazing that some people can speak and talk and like.
I mean, just the way you grasp Yeah.
I'm not that.
My wife makes fun of me.
I'm from Texas.
I don't have a strong Texas accent, but I have, I grew up in inner city Houston, so I have, which is a melting pot, and I say certain words that my wife's like, you, you sound like you're from New York.

(28:58):
Like, you know, on, I say on instead of on, and it's like, on, we're online.
And she's like, what? And then I, I, I.
me, I'm from the Midwest.
That's not normal.
Online.
Everything's harsh.
Yeah.
Yeah, And then like, I can't, I, I, to me, a pen and pen that, you know, I, I, I pin I'll, I'll pin it in and write pen.

(29:19):
Yeah, pin and pen.
And so I have, I'm, I'm not an articulate guy, so language to me, I don't, I don't lose sleep over language.
Yeah.
But, uh, there are, there are things that we have to be mindful of, of, of how we talk and speak about things.
Um, and not just in pronunciation, but in like meaning and like substance.
Um, because if we don't, if we don't, if, if we just take language for granted, then it gives space for, I can't believe I'm talking about this.

(29:51):
It, it, it gives space for, you know, bad theology and, and you give room for people to create space around things that maybe aren't winsome for, for the kingdom.
That it, it's not moving us forward in what God wants and it can be really, really damaging and that, and that's where I think language can be harmful.
Yeah.
So back to that pin we put in about, like, can you, do you have some examples of that? Well, I, I, yeah, I do.

(30:18):
And, and I apologize.
to share without? Yeah, no, I apologize because the example that I can't, I, I, I almost feel like I have to get it out and we can cut this, uh, and then get to something else, but I I'm watching The Way Down, uh, miniseries, not mini, uh, documentaries.
Yeah.
The Gwen Shamblin and, you know, she, uh, she started The Way Down and the Remnant, uh, fellowship and all of that, and just watching that.

(30:44):
And we just finished this last night and I'm just, I'm the, the way that.
What differentiates a church from a cult and theology and then how you interact and, you know, 'cause cause language as powerful it is to paint a picture of the Kingdom and King, language is equally powerful in holding people submissive and entangling them in really unhealthy, harmful environments where they can, where abuse can, can, kind of exist and, and, and be rough shot all over.

(31:22):
And it's just really painful.
And so I, you can see language in both ways.
And so, and that's where I just like, oh, thank God I'm not one of those, you know, no one's gonna, I, I, no one's gonna accuse me of being a cult leader because I can't, I can't speak, you know, long enough without like, oh, this guy's a moron.
Okay, we're good.
Yeah.
We'll, you know, we'll move on.
Yeah.

(31:43):
But language is dangerous.
And, and so, you know, the way you use words And because of it yes.
That's right.
It can be dangerous.
That's right.
That's a good way to put it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Language is powerful.
I like that.
I mean, I think, I think it, it, it, it is, um, what is, ah, I can't remember who said it, but the pen is mightier than the word.
And when we.

(32:04):
Yeah.
The sword.
Yes.
Thank you.
Um, and it is this idea that the, the written word, the, the, the recorded word, which now because of podcasts and video and all these things are, are, are what we just say off the cuff, sometimes can be cemented as the written word.
And people take these things and, and, and you can twist 'em and use them.

(32:24):
And, and that's where, you know, when there, I think there are a lot of people who are victims, um, of the Bible being used as a weapon.
Yeah.
And because again, its language is powerful, the written word is powerful, and when in the wrong hands with the wrong motives, it can really do damage.

(32:45):
Yeah.
And, and I think it's partly like our interpretations of the language Mm-hmm.
and of the Bible, you our, yeah.
All of that has, power.
Um, I was thinking some other ones in our culture today for sure.
Well, evangelical.
Mm-hmm.
I, I work at a, an evangelical seminary, you know, and, and so people, you know, we're, a couple colleagues and I we're reading a book right now about evangelicalism and going, are you evangelical? Well, what do you mean by that? You know, Yeah, uh, woke liberal.

(33:21):
That's a, oh, that's a good one right now.
Right now in, you know, in our climate, um, these, these are loaded terms and they, they're automatic, uh, they're Shibboleths, which is, uh, it was a, in the Old Testament, you know those, you're listening.
No, it is like, this word that was used is kind of either you're in or you're out or you it's almost like a secret code word kind of thing.

(33:44):
And, and so, I mean, I think gospel can sometimes be that, I think inerrancy, Mm-hmm.
that.
But like it becomes this thing of, um, I was talking to one of our, uh, like fundraising people at Denver Seminary and he said, people sometimes call are, are you going liberal or are you woke? And he's like, what do you mean by that? Yeah.

(34:05):
You know, it's so easy to just hear a word and like you said, cringe words or we automatically shut down because of how they've been used in the past.
Sometimes have to help distance ourself and, and go, okay, wait, what? You know, some space because until we know what they mean by that, but Yeah, I feel like we're also too quick to just cut down.

(34:26):
Well, you use that word, you're out.
That's right.
So what are some things you do or that we can be doing to, to help recognize the power of language? Recognize our use of language.
Be more, um, charitable and generous in our conversations, even when people use words that make us cringe.

(34:49):
Yeah.
look, you have that gulp moment like, what do you, what, what works for you? Or how are you Yes.
So the first thing you do is you delete Twitter and Facebook.
No, I'm just kidding.
First thing you think is unfriend all the people who disagree with that's right.
That's it.
Yes.
You, you.
Yeah, that's right.
That's very gospel-centered.
That's very gospel use It's, it's Christlike.

(35:10):
let's use all the trigger words in one sentence to That's right.
You know, but I do, I do think there is something about social media because, you know, um, people love to turn a phrase and so someone will say something.
I remember when progressive was the big word.
Like, oh, we're so progressive.
Um, or relevant.
That was a big one.
Relevant.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I remember, I remember sitting in a meeting, it was a, a net a Pastor's network meeting, and someone stood up and said, and this was, this was back in the day of Brian McLaren.

(35:41):
And so this is a while back, and I remember someone saying, if anyone, if you ever hear the word progressive, you need to run.
And I was just like, Why, like, what's wrong with that word? And it is, again, it's just like, because someone had had their, their feeling about it and all that.
And so, you know, I I, I do think there is something about the social media piece.

(36:02):
I think you have to, um, I, I am a big, big proponent of, at least in my life, how I live as a practitioner in this.
I, I'm not gonna engage in a public social media platform around arguing.
Words or thoughts or philosophies and all of that that I really, really believe we have to figure out, and this is the challenge in our, in a, in a world where, well, what happens if I disagree with someone who lives a thousand miles away? And I'm like, well, um, I do.

(36:35):
I need to have a translocal "I need to be right" and just like let it be.
Um, but if I really do believe relationships, Yeah.
These are, these are the things that need to be discovered in the context of relationship.
And I, that's the thing that grieves me about the church.
That's, we're we're, it feels like we're losing the relation, the relationship piece of being the body of God.

(37:02):
Yeah.
When you, when you hear, when you start to hear people talk about, I'm part of a church, I go to a church, I'm actively a member of a church and I feel lonely.
Yeah, I don't know anybody.
That's heartbreaking.
And, and it, and I think it's because we've created places and systems and environments where we can participate, but you don't have to engage at a real relational level.

(37:29):
because we lose that, we're quick to have our trigger words, like, and I, and I think we all have it, right? We all have a bank of words that we find are cringy, um, that we find are triggering for us.
And so for some people that, that word bank looks like, well, if you say the word woke or you say liberal, I'm going to have a visceral response to that.

(37:59):
And so I think one of the things that we have to do is, one, we have to train ourselves to.
Like, it's not a bad word.
It's, you know, and, and, and, and the vice versa.
I don't know what the opposite of woke is.
Um, but, uh, without being insulting, but, um, but like, if liberal triggers you then, then you probably have no problem with conservative, you know, or vice versa.

(38:24):
But it's like, how do we, how do we like learn to not have that visceral response? It is only in relationship.
Yeah.
It's like, how, how, who am I speaking with? Who has a differing view of me or who has a different interpretation of a word? And we can sit down.
And so like, one of my favorite relationships that I have is, which is, uh, you met, you got to meet Jacob Hoyer, uh, a couple months ago.

(38:51):
And so I love Jacob.
Uh, Jacob is, uh, is a Lutheran, uh, Lutheran tradition.
And when we talk about baptism, you know, Yeah.
We, I, I love it.
It's one, it's some of my favorite conversations and, and we have different views.
Like he's like, you know, like, let, let's baptize that baby.
And I come from more of a Baptist tradition where it's like, no, no, no, we want, you know, it's like, let's make sure that they've made a decision and it's a reputation of their choice in choosing Jesus and all of that and submersion and all of that.

(39:21):
And so, but it's funny, we have this beautiful relationship and he is one of my dearest friends.
I love him to death.
Um, we can have very differing beliefs and we can come down on how we see it very differently.
But at the end of the day, he draws me a little bit closer to him and I'm like, well, if they, you know, if you're a parent and you want that, you want your baby to to, to get wet.

(39:46):
You know, it was like, well we can, you know, we can do emergency swim and they, we do a quick full submersion, you know, whatever, you know? Cause I'm a full submersion guy.
You like little baby.
He is like, he'll survive.
You know? Uh, now I don't know if Jacob's coming a little bit closer to my way, but it's one of those things where it's like in relationship you can see the other person and it's not, but I've seen people have that conversation.

(40:09):
I had a neighbor who was a staunch Presbyterian.
Very reformed.
And when he found out I was a pastor, he was like, oh my gosh.
It, I, I, I'm so excited to have a pastor who lives across the street from me.
And we started building a relationship and I was at his house one day and I was looking, uh, at his bookshelf and he had Doctrine by Mark Driscoll.

(40:30):
And I'm like, oh, okay.
I think, yeah.
And so then I start unpacking.
It's like, oh, he's like hardcore Acts 29 reformed and all of that.
And, but when he found out that I was not that, Yeah.
He, he changed and it, and it was weird.
And it, like, it put a damper in that piece.
And it's because he was choosing his words, his definitions, his interpretations, he was putting that over relationship Mm.

(40:58):
and that, that grieved me.
It grieved me.
And, and, and that's where I think these things, these things become where words and definitions can become dangerous.
It's, it's, it's, our theology can become poisonous for people.
And can be become more important than the relationship is, That's I hear you saying.
Yeah.
Well, like in when we lived in denominationalism, denomin, denominational times, you kinda, you knew your tribe.

(41:25):
It wasn't necessarily tribalism, but you kind of knew just, you know, you had kind of a shared language and a shared lifestyle, but now, you know, uh, everybody in our country at least is moving more.
You know, like any given church, even if it is, has a denominational label, but certainly if it's nondenom has a mix of people.
So I think it's natural for us to want to find, how do I know who, who to trust? Well, language is an easy, easy, uh, very insufficient and sometimes incorrect, but way to sort.

(41:59):
Yeah.
Well expect, and we haven't got into this.
The whole sexual ethic conversation.
There's a lot of words that are loaded when it comes to that, especially like I wanted, how is this church? What, you know, you look it up and, and really people are looking for websites.
They're looking for words.

(42:20):
need to see this word on your website.
So, and, and again, and I'm not getting into one way or the other, but.
We have to, we, we see that a lot in the language.
And, and it's one of those things where it's like, hey, I'm looking for if, if I'm shopping for a church, I'm looking for a set of words.
for Yeah, Some of them are more social words, some of 'em are theological words.

(42:41):
Um, some of them are cultural, you know, and, and it's one of those things where, you know, as a pastor or as a church planter, you, again, you have to be mindful.
And it's heartbreaking because, I think 20, 25 years ago you could get away with, well, just don't have anything.
Like if you're unclear, then you're safe.

(43:03):
But now we're moving more and more into where clarity matters so much.
Yeah.
To be unclear on a stance or what you believe or what you say can actually do more damage than if you were just to come right out and say, hey, here's where we have conviction on this.
Whether it's, you know, sexual ethic, theological ethic, or whatever.

(43:25):
It's, you know, you know, we all have what we believe, what we believe, and how we, you know, operate based on that.
But lots of words and websites, I mean, uh, it's fun just to go look at people church websites and just read and, and see how they, yeah, just how they are phrasing things and talking about things, and it's, you know, it's, I'm, I'm sure there's some, there's, I'm sure there's a service out there that you know, is like, hey, we hope your church website, you know, the language.

(43:54):
I'm sure there's copywriters out there who are experts at this kind of thing, but it's, it's, people like, they'll move to another town and, uh, well, so I have a friend who moved to overseas to England for her husband's work assignment for several years.
And she said, I don't know how to find a church because the Church of England is a completely the idea that there's a national church, you know, and, and there's these other churches and, and now everybody's changed their names of their churches, so they don't have First Presbyterian and, Third Reformed.

(44:24):
And so you don't have the, oh, well, you just look for the Methodist church.
And so they, they're all named generic, you know, just kind of Christianese terms.
And so, so I just helped her over, we were actually on WhatsApp, texting each other, messaging each other, and I, you know, I was like, so.
Uh, you know, she said, well, I'm looking at these three or four.
We visited these places.

(44:45):
And I said, okay, well this place, and just looking at their website without stepping foot, you know, traveling over across the pond, you know, I could tell her, well, this generally usually means this, you know, but, so here's something you might want to ask about.
It didn't say, don't go there, but, you know, it's like, yeah, we just, we make these immediate judgements and I, I think for me, the thing is, two, two things like, what do you mean by that? But also what do I mean by that? Why, why is it cringing to me? Or why am I so strong on why we have to use this word or be so clear about this definition? And when I'm more clear about it, uh, and um, it's less loaded for me because I've taken it out and kind of looked at it a little bit, then I can have the same conversation with you and go, well, what does that mean to you? And, and get beyond just that gut level reaction, Yeah.

(45:43):
and then go, okay, what, you know, like you said, on Facebook or social media.
I'll, I won't, I won't say it's just fight the terms.
I'll just, sometimes I'll just raise the question, what does that mean to you? Or, I, I may have a different meaning and to be okay with that sometimes.
Yeah.
I'm curious, uh, Angie, what are what, what are your thoughts and feelings on the idea of, different tribes, denominations, networks, communities, movements, having, you know, building their own language.

(46:17):
Is it, I mean, what are, I mean, what are your thoughts? Do you see it as something that is helpful or it, I mean, is it just a reality that you, you a, I think it's an organizational reality.
Okay.
We haven't really talked about much about our organizational leadership sides of us, 'cause we get so caught up in eating Portillos in Chicago and talking about how wonderful that is.

(46:39):
But, but my doctorate was actually on, uh, organizational culture of churches Okay.
like the idea of artifacts, language, and websites, all that, and what deeper values, you know, they speak to, but I think it's just a natural, like your family, I'm sure has inside jokes and terms that have certain meanings, That's right.
gathered together just start to develop a shared language of little things or, um, things we don't talk about, you know, kind of thing.

(47:07):
So I, I think it is a part of gathered and organized life together.
So it's not bad in that, but I think it can, they can certainly be the delineators of who's in and who's out sometimes in a, in a good way.
Well, they're not part of our family, so you don't get that joke, kind of thing.
But sometimes it can be an othering thing and like you said, harmful, not in a helpful way.

(47:31):
Um, and I think it'd be fun like rituals, traditions, all that kind of stuff that's like insider things.
And that's what cause sometimes is part of facilitating connection.
With people cuz we have something we've shared, we've been through this, this, remember that time or whatever.
Or that term means, you know, you can, Dave and I, my husband and I, we can, there are so many words that we can just say and look at each other and it, we just have this deep meaning, you know, Yeah.

(47:58):
either, bonding us relationship or funny or kind of thing.
Um, but I think so they're powerful again, in both ways.
Yeah.
You, you mentioned inside joke and like kind of that, that shared, shared history and how someone on the outside.
How that makes them feel.
And, and I, I mean, I, one of my favorite things in the world is just, I just enjoy laughing.

(48:21):
And I think that's why, I think that's why I've been drawn to you as a friend because we just, we cut up and we have, we just have a good time when we're, when we're chatting and hanging out and, um, so I love inside jokes and I love like moments and it's like, you know where you can, when you can look across the room and not say a word, just exchange a look you're like, you know what I'm thinking, I know what you're thinking.

(48:43):
Um, but like there's a scene in The Office, which I don't know if you're a fan of The Office, Yes.
I'm sure many of listeners.
think, yeah, probably we're thinking of the same thing, but keep going.
It's, it's the, it's the scene where, where, uh, Jim and Josh, uh, are sharing a joke and, uh, Mike, Michael Scott just responds like, ooh, inside joke.

(49:04):
I really hope to be a part of one of those.
I, I wanna be a part of one of those one day.
And it just was like, Right.
Oh, just heart wrenching.
Because if you, if you're a fan of the show, you know, Mike's Michael, Scott's greatest desire is just to be accepted.
He just wants to be a part of something that's bigger than himself.
That's why he tries to make his workplace, his family, right? It's so cringy.

(49:26):
Yes.
He's just wants, and, and again, it just, that comment and, and, and it's funny when like, so we'll onboard new team members in Forge.
We'll say, uh, we'll say something.
It's like, oh yeah, you remember when Hugh was the National Director and we talked about this, and then, oh, that was an initiative that we were thinking through.
And then we look and then there's like, there's like, you know, five new team members and they're like, blank.

(49:48):
Yeah.
And some of them are like, Hugh Halter was the National Director of Forge America at one point.
I'm like, oh yeah, we have different shared histories.
Right? And, and, and, and, and it is, it reminds me is like, okay, we have to be intentional.
And that's the thing I think, you know, even for Forge, we talk about language and license.
It's giving people a language and giving them license to go do the things that God wants them to do.

(50:11):
So we, we do put a big emphasis on creating shared language.
But part of that work in any cultural anthropological work.
You have to be committed to doing the work of helping people.
Everybody get the language.
And so that's where you have to do the painstaking work of helping people.

(50:33):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well you, you probably heard us say this.
This is what we mean and really, It's slowing down and making sure that, hey, is everyone, everyone following, you know? And, and, and I think we live in a world where there are some personalities who, I have a dear friend who when, when we're in a moment, she has no problem saying, oh, you guys keep saying that.

(50:54):
What does that mean? I have no idea.
Yeah, that's right.
You're new to the team.
And we explain it, and I'm super grateful for, for leaders that are like that.
Yeah.
But for every one of those leaders, there's probably four leaders who will just sit there and not say anything, they'll play the game in their head, they're like, okay, they said that.
What did you know? And they're trying to discern what that means, and they may or may not get to the end point that we have.

(51:20):
And, and for some things it may not be, it may be a little trivial, it may not be a big deal, but for other things it could be really significant things that.
The longer we go on presumed understanding that when we're speaking, we know we're on the same page.
That, you know, 2% here Yep.
Down the road can be really, really, 2% can be really, really far apart.

(51:44):
And so that's part of just being mindful if you're gonna, you know, if you're gonna, if you're gonna be intentional about building a language for your church or community or whatever, you have to make sure that you're giving people the space to.
Wrestle with it, embrace it, understand it, and you're not just taking it for granted.
'Cause I do think that's one of the things we take for granted all the time is our language.

(52:04):
I say this, you know what I mean? I shouldn't have to explain myself.
Yeah.
So I don't think it's a bad thing to ha necessarily.
Just the fact of it, I think can be a natural thing.
But what we do with it, you know, so like I've, you know, you and I both been to probably gatherings, uh, or conferences where you feel like I'm at somebody else's family reunion.
Yeah.

(52:24):
A hundred percent.
It's like, okay, that's fine.
That's their thing.
That's not my people.
But then there's other times where I feel like, intentionally or you know, that like it's, it's used as a, as a bludgeon or a divider intentionally, not unintentionally, but just being aware of it, I think, and continuing to, just really examining our language and knowing the power of it, I think is the biggest, biggest piece for that.

(52:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's helpful.
I think we could talk, looking at the clock.
I'm going, oh, see now like we need to meet in Chicago again.
Yeah.
Go for Chicago dogs or something.
Yeah.
You are, uh, the, a co-host of the Forge America podcast, Mm-hmm.
of which I am an honored four time, That's right.

(53:06):
guest.
Um, so.
So by going to, uh, forge America website, they can link to all that stuff, right? And some of the stuff you're doing.
Are there other things you're working on or places people can find you, follow you, see what you're thinking about and working on? Yeah.
I mean, forge America.
That, that's kind of my, that, that, that, has my heart.

(53:26):
That's has my heart.
That's when I wake up.
That's the work that, that comes to mind that we're doing.
And so, forgeamerica.com,
you know, social media, reach out, uh, you know, Terry Ishee, Terry always with a y.
Um, never with an i.
Um, You can find me.
I, I mean, I do a lot of other things.
You know, I, I, I'm really kind of moved into a season of life where, you know, uh, Forge America is my primary thing, but I'm doing some things with sequoias and coaching, organizational leadership and all of those sorts of things.

(53:56):
But yeah, helping people, cultivating missional practitioners is really the thing that I wake up every morning excited to get to do. 681 00:54:05,2.5 --> 00:54:05,742.5 That's great. 682 00:54:06,532.5 --> 00:54:11,265 Thank you so much for being my first guest, my first recording.
This has been super fun.
This is amazing.
I'm so excited for this podcast.
I think it's gonna be a blessing to the tribe, to the church, and, uh, I, I just, from this conversation, I can't imagine what, what conversations you have kind of, you know, in between your ears that you've got for the future.

(54:25):
So it's gonna be fun.
fun ones coming up for sure.
Yeah.
Thanks, Terry.
Good to see you. 692 00:54:32,309.4080497 --> 00:54:33,849.4080497 Hey friend, thanks for joining me today. 693 00:54:34,629.4080497 --> 00:54:46,209.4080497 If you've liked this episode, I'd encourage you to share it with a friend or a fellow ministry leader, and if you enjoy the Big C Church podcast, I'd be grateful if you would go to wherever you listen to podcast and leave a positive review. 694 00:54:46,209.4080497 --> 00:54:47,409.4080497 Thanks so much for listening.