September 9, 2023 • 55 mins
Should pastors be friends with their congregants? How about with co-pastors or other staff members? Angie talks to Matt Tebbe, co-pastor of The Table church in Indianapolis and co-founder of Gravity Leadership, about the opportunities and dangers that result from the power dynamics inherent to a pastor’s relationships.
Honorable Mention:
- The Gravity Leadership Podcast
- Matt’s Substack, “A Sanctified Ruckus”
- Matt on X
- Matt’s original post on X about the hazards of being a pastor and friendship.
- The Table Church in Indianapolis
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello and welcome back to the Big C Church Podcast.
I am your host, Dr.
Angie Ward.
Our goal with the podcast is to have challenging conversations to better the body, to have the hard conversations that can help foster hope for the church and the people of God.
So my guest today is Matt Tebbe, and I almost introduced myself as welcome to the Gravity Leadership Podcast because that's part of his role is.
(00:31):
Host of the Gravity co-host of the Gravity Leadership Podcast, which I have appeared, been honored to appear on.
Matt is in Indianapolis.
He's, he's a, a co of a lot of things.
Co-host of the Gravity Leadership Podcast, co-founder of Gravity Leadership, co-pastor of the Table Church in Indianapolis, co-author with Ben Sternke of Having the Mind of Christ, great book with InterVarsity Press.
(01:00):
So a lot of co, a lot of those with Ben Sternke.
That yeah.
And so I'm happy to co with him today on this episode of the podcast.
And, and I do a littles or kind of a questionnaire for guests and how do you want me to introduce you? And Matt said, pastor, and said, you can get my bio from the other stuff.
So this, I gave the bio stuff, but Matt pastor, pastor Matt.
(01:23):
I love that because that's really, actually, I don't know if you even remember.
This is, that's how I first got to know you.
I was living on the south side of Indianapolis, which is Greenwood area where we moved to Denver from, but was going through kind of a questioning, deconstructing church season and some stuff in life and some of, related to some of the stuff we're gonna talk about today, which is pastors and friendships as a part of a series on pastors and power.
(01:49):
But so was feeling kind of isolated, had questions, Matt, I knew of Matt and Ben and so I just kind of cold emailed them and said, hey, can we get together? And so pastored me, so thank you.
Mm.
Yeah.
thanks for being a guest on The Big C Church Podcast.
it's great to be here.
I'm a big fan of the Big C Yeah, I know you are.
(02:11):
I know, I, you're, I love, love that we can have this conversation.
So yeah, like I said, so I'm doing this kind of mini series on pastors and power and you posted, I'm bringing it up here on my phone cause I took a screenshot not long ago.
You posted on your Twitter, you said a word about the hazards of being a pastor and friendship.
(02:31):
And says we can't really be friends with the people we spend the most time with.
There's power differentials there layers of responsibility and commitments that make peer to peer friendship impossible.
And you go on a thread from there.
But that's the, the first part.
And, and I am immediately, and as I was telling you before we hit record I've been in ministry all my adult life.
(02:53):
I've been a pastor's wife for all of my married life, or I would say married to a pastor.
I would always say, I may be married to a pastor, but I'll never be air quotes a pastor's wife.
But I've realized that I always was a pastor's wife to people, and there's this.
Hmm.
So reflecting here where we got to Denver, Colorado three years ago first time we didn't move for a job as pastor or for a role like that and where the, you know, we didn't have that title.
(03:22):
And so forming friendships outside of that context of the pastorate or pastor's liveliness.
And also then realizing along the church, the many churches that we've served at in North Carolina, Minnesota, Indiana, and how that dynamic of the, the, the power pastors in power has affected our friendships, my friendships, Dave and me and all that.
(03:47):
So my first question for you, and we'll just, you know, I'm sure we'll have a great conversation unfold, but like, what led you to post that in the first place? Yeah, great question, Angie.
I think it's because I.
When I first got into ministry, I wasn't sure what it meant to be a pastor.
I just didn't know.
I didn't And how old were you? Tell me like little bit of that journey.
(04:09):
Yeah.
It was basically right outta college.
So both.
Same.
Same thing.
Both of us.
22, 23, young adult.
Yeah, I think I had, think I knew what I didn't want to I didn't want to be of a dictatorial, sort of person who just kind of had a lot of distance.
(04:29):
I've always been a relational person, so I wanted to actually be friendly with the people I was Mm-hmm.
And over the next few decades realized that I was trying not to be.
So what led me to post that was I was trying not to be a certain kind of I think wasn't good for me or for others and could cause harm.
(04:50):
And in trying to stay away from that, I think I ended up unintentionally causing harm.
Hmm.
And so, and and we can talk about that kind of harm for a second, but what led me to post this was trying to piece together why did, why did that happen? And how do, how do, how do I make, you know, do I name that and begin to rectify it? I have, I have begun to rectify it, but how do I begin to name that? Cause I, I wonder if other pastors are experiencing this tension as well.
(05:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, we can, you know, get into this more, but you said the response, you were not prepared for the response you got.
Yeah.
I mean, I had people saying I disagree.
I'm a pastor of a church and I have great friendships.
I had people say problem is that you, Your, your problem is that you see power wrong.
(05:47):
It should, it shouldn't be like this.
Jesus called people friends.
And, and so a lot of, I think a lot of assumptions were made about where I was coming from.
Like, I think a lot of people read into it that there should be lots of distance and you shouldn't be honest or known by people.
I think people read into what I was trying to say and honestly, like most of my social media posts, Angie, it, I didn't craft it.
(06:08):
I didn't have a rough Yeah.
You just went, hey, I'm thinking about this.
Yeah.
just, I just think out loud on so I probably would word things differently.
I said pastors can't really have friendships and I meant that in a quote, "friendship way" I tried to clarify peer to peer but I do think there's different kinds of friendships that, that have to account for authority Mm-hmm.
(06:33):
power differentials or else the person with more power.
Could often unintentionally cause injury or harm.
If a, if a person with power and authority doesn't steward it intentionally huh.
and learn to walk wisely with it, they can end up causing harm that, that they didn't intend.
(06:57):
Yeah.
And that's, that's what I was trying to reckon with in that Yeah.
Well so since you stirred the pot, let's keep stirring.
So so tell me more about how you came to, to learn what you, you know, you kind of posted about as you were thinking about, and whatever degree you're willing to share as far as some, you know, either where you stumbled into stuff and went, oh, there's a, a power thing here.
(07:20):
Just what were some of those markers that have.
Shaped your, where you're at now on that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there, there was a, there was a, there was a church conflict that I was a part of about 15 years Hmm.
where, certain congregants were bringing questions and concerns about another congregant and their relationships, friendships with people, the opposite sex.
(07:49):
And I, I, as the pastor, didn't handle the conflict between congregants very well because I didn't.
I wasn't stewarding role as the shepherd of the community.
Well, I tried to stay, I tried to stay neutral.
I tried to stay I tried to treat it as though it was a, of this conflict was happening among peers and equals, and it really, and it really wasn't.
(08:15):
And so the person who was being accused of wrongdoing didn't experience my presence with them as care.
They, they experienced my presence, and we've talked about this and, and we have rectified our relationship.
We've made up.
But they kind of always, I always felt to them like I was holding a hand behind my Mm.
Like I had the, I had the authority or power to make decisions or to adjudicate this, and I wasn't being honest and upfront about that.
(08:44):
And so it always felt like they were guessing.
.5what, what's going on here? So that's, that's Yeah.
Know, I'm thinking about I'm thinking about as well, I had had some, some, some friends who were my age in a church.
I was pastoring.
And could just be a peculiarity of my generation or just my personality.
But I, I make a lot of jokes and, you know what I'm saying? And, when I would hang out with them, we would make jokes and.
(09:10):
It was fine from my perspective, but years later, this person to me that he called it you, you, you kind of big brother me.
Huh.
And what he meant by that was I looked up to you, you're like a role model to me, and then when you make jokes at my expense, right.
(09:35):
It feels like you're, I.
You're dunking on a, on a, on a toddler, you know, me in a headlock and giving me a Now that I, I wasn't at all thinking that you know, I'm sure I made one or two or more inappropriate jokes, but, but he experienced my jokes differently than I intended, it was because I was treating, reckoning with the fact that I have a place in his life that I need to steward well, yeah, for his sake.
(10:06):
yeah, Yeah, so those are two of many I was maybe too familiar too, too unassuming about what is actually going on, which is there is a vested authority in me.
We can talk more about what that power is, but there's a vested authority in me, and if I don't steward it well, it's not wise, and it could lead to harm.
(10:31):
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
And, and I, I think, tell, tell me what you think.
Just that I think you and I both.
You know when we went into oc, you know, ministry, vocational ministry, you, we both had an idea of, well, we don't wanna be that, you know, kind of thing.
But we grew up in an era where of like the megachurch and the more, but a more familiarity like pastor, you know, the like, now you're in a tradition that still wears clerical, gar, but, but the ones that I grew up in were not that at all and very much tried to downplay any type of distinction.
(11:03):
So the church, we, and when we were in New Hope in Indiana, some people would refer to my husband's even still five years ago as pastor, and he would say, I'm not pastor, I'm just Dave.
You know, so, so I've seen, you know, the churches I grew up in and even in seminary, like there was this movement toward.
Familiarity in all, all respects in clothing, language, in where you put a pulpit or what that even looks like.
(11:29):
You remove the distance from people.
But, and this where I wanna hear what you say, like what the reality is, there is still a power reality or an authority reality there, regardless of how much we try to downplay.
Mm-hmm.
it was, it was.
I am I don't know, embarrassed, I'm not ashamed, but like to realize, to admit that it wasn't until just a few years before we left Indiana.
(11:55):
And so we've been in, in, you know, married, in pastoral ministry for 20, 23, 24, 25 years.
We regularly would have people into their, into our homes because we wanna show hospitality and, hey, not probably a little bit, we're normal people too, kind of thing.
And I, and it, and it finally dawned on me, Because some people would just come and become a stiff.
(12:17):
Other people were like, Hey, this is great.
But I was like, oh, wait, duh.
Some people view this as, oh my goodness, I'm going to the pastor's house.
I'm not just going to David.
It took me that long to realize, like you said, how that person felt.
Despite my best efforts to minimize any type of gap there.
(12:37):
yes, yes.
Yes.
Angie, I, I think that's right on.
And then, then we can, we can get to then the conversation of, I mean, okay, so let me, let me just say there's an, there's analogies here, right? So I have a 14 year old and 11 year old, and I'm constantly wanting them to have a familiarity with me and a trust of me and intimacy with But, but I, I also know that I have to be the dad.
(13:02):
Yeah. 139 00:13:03,447.5 --> 00:13:06,770 I can't be just your buddy, So we get that.
Like I, I go to the doctor's office.
I don't need my doctor to be my Right.
I, you know what I'm And so there's, there's these other arenas where we get that friendship isn't the highest virtue.
Peer-to-peer friendship isn't the highest virtue in this relationship.
And I think that same exists for a pastor, even though I think there's a kind of, there's a kind of friendship we can have, but, but I, I think then, what makes people freak out about this is that typically when we talk about power and authority, we're, we're, I think, using those words synonymously with like control Yes.
(13:43):
or domination.
Yeah.
And that's what you and I, I think our instinct is to stay away from domination.
I don't wanna dominate anybody, you know.
But but staying away from domination doesn't mean that we're actually moving towards virtue.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
So true.
Right.
staying away from the bad doesn't mean we back into the good.
(14:05):
We actually have to have a good that we're moving towards.
And so that's what I'm, that's what I'm, I'm mostly interested in now is if it's not just, we're all friends, everything's equal, and if I ignore power, it'll go away and it won't do any bad work or you know, note.
I had a pastor once say to me, none of my staff has ever been in my house and they never will.
(14:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, That kind of distance separation.
I don't, I don't want to live like that.
That doesn't appeal to me as a human.
But what, what's the good that, I dunno if in between is the right word or in distinction from those two ditches.
what, that's what I'm most interested yeah.
The first pastor that we served under in Minnesota, he told my husband, he said he was taught, never become friends with your, your staff, because you, one day you may have to fire them.
(14:52):
Yes.
This is what I mean.
This is, this is one of the, this is another way that I saw this, by the way.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Tell me about that.
it, it, well, you know, it's common for pastors like you and I to talk about the church as a family, Yeah, yeah, right.
For the family of God, brothers and sisters.
(15:13):
But, but Angie, you don't, you don't fire a sister.
yeah.
You fire an Yeah.
right? Yep.
And, and you know, you left your church in Greenwood while you were there, you were making all kinds of commitments and promises with your Mm-hmm.
that, that when you leave, no longer are Mm-hmm.
(15:37):
fulfill.
But we're playing a bit there fast and loose maybe with our relational circuits.
for sure.
Because even though those people in Greenwood know, okay, Angie's been released from our, being our pastor, pastor's wife, she's got, she's got this thing in Denver, she's doing, there still are these tether points that we made were just kind of ripped away.
(16:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what I realized is to many of those people, and we, and you know, there's, so there's the staff friendships piece, there's the or co co-leader piece, there's the congregation piece, and I, and I've realized after enough moves that we had some degree of friendship while we were there and shared life, but ultimately to many of them I was, we fulfilled a role and a function, and so I've seen it cut the other way as well where I I thought there was more.
(16:32):
It wasn't just about, you know, the, the role, but they're, they were ascribing the role to me, and that's why they, there was some sort of relationship or connection there.
And once that was gone, I've just learned my true friends are the ones that keep in touch after you've moved from a place, you know? So I think it, it works both ways just because we're not aware of kind of calling out that piece of it, just, it's just a reality.
(16:57):
So tell me, you know, what, what, from your perspective, So not, not domination, but what, like vested authority.
Talk to me about your understanding, what you're learning about that.
Yeah.
So it, it's been really helpful for me.
Th th this is one of the many things that has pushed me to be more clear about.
What is the not so among you leadership Jesus tells his followers to embody? Right.
(17:24):
And you know, we have lots of words.
Servant leadership, leadership.
You know, we have all these phrases, but, but when I, and we've talked about this before, Angie, just personally, when I think about, how do I sum it up? I think the world sees authority as the power to control.
But the kingdom sees authority as the power to Mm-hmm.
(17:45):
and, and let me point it out.
Power is not automatically bad.
I think sometimes in society we, like in our, in our climate where power is automatically I evil or ill, and that's not true.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I mean, in fact power is unavoidable.
mm.
Yeah.
know, hold an infant in your hands.
(18:07):
If you don't exercise your power for that infant's good, you get a, you can get arrested.
Like, there's so many ways in which powers what it, what it means to be human is to have some kind of power in some arena.
And our job.
And you know, when you read the scriptures, like, you know, the, the, the new Jerusalem, revelation 21 is, is about heaven coming home to earth the people of God being with power.
(18:37):
To rule and reign as coregents of the cosmos with Christ.
So our, where we're going in terms of eternal life is God is looking for people who can bear his power well.
Yeah.
and so there's a, you know, I won't go on a long rant on that, but I, I, for me then, what does it look like to center my life in this power of how does love work? And I think love works differently than controller Mm-hmm.
(19:09):
Love.
And you know, we can, we can talk, have a whole conversation about that, but, so then, so then my job as a pastor is to carry the to carry the mantle of love for the sake of others, and that looks different person to person in my congregation.
(19:30):
Mm.
It looks so different and, and so it, so we're not talking about techniques, we're talking about wisdom.
We're Yep.
being present and available to God and other people for their benefit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's not a blanket, like you said, it's it's person to person.
(19:51):
There's not one blanket roll.
I mean, it just looks different for your each person, each season, each situation.
Yes.
So yeah, so one of my dearest friends in my church and when I say friend, I mean she's got a leadership role at our church.
She and I have had lots of laughs together, lots of good stuff together, she, has gone through a really hard year of multiple miscarriages.
(20:21):
And she indicated to me this week in a public setting that they'd had another one.
She's very vague about it, Yeah, but she caught it.
Yeah.
she was referring Yeah.
And so in that moment, you know, she, so this is just an example of how it takes wisdom to know I was thinking, do I indicate to her that I picked up what she was saying? Would that benefit Mm-hmm.
(20:45):
I, is she in a place where she wants.
Her, her friend, but, but also her, her pastor, her priest, to indicate that he picked up on that.
And so I was just thinking about this, like, will this increase? Does she just, she, does she need space or does she need me to move towards her don't know, but I'm, you know, it's a discernment thing, we do as pastors or even as Yeah.
(21:10):
By the way, I think 20 years ago, I just would've moved towards her and I would not have question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's, that's a different thing But then I just said, hey, I, I don't presume you want to talk about this or need to talk about it with me, but I'm so sorry Yeah.
It kinda, I noticed and, I noticed sorry, and I'm praying for you.
I just kind of left it there yeah.
(21:32):
and I was right.
She was, she did not wanna talk about it.
you know, it was like, yes, it's been, it's just awful and my body is I'm just so and I said, well, you know, my wife and I had seven years of trying to have kids before we could have one.
So if you ever need to talk about it, I'm here.
That's a different conversation than I would've had with another person.
(21:55):
it had a lot to do with so many factors like, In our relationship and me as her priest, like in like influenced the way I tried to handle that situation.
Yeah.
So that, that's just one example of like, it, it looks different depending upon who, who the congregant is how it works.
(22:18):
yeah.
culturally too, Angie, I don't know, like when we were kids, pastors just showed up in the hospital room when kids were born.
Or just showed up after your surgery at your house, Right.
But culturally, in the last 30 years, 40 years, things have shifted.
yeah, And so now, now I find myself, not presuming that I'm wanted, but asking for some kind of consent or, or invitation before I do that, that is a navigating power.
(22:48):
yeah.
Right? And we, I think most pastors listening can.
Relate to that shift, but that's an indication of what we're talking about, Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I was thinking, you know, like you said, 20 years ago, I would just moved toward this person, you know, and, and and I, you know, I was thinking like how many p pastors, people in leadership, ministry leadership really have given.
(23:16):
Much thought, not much.
I, in my experience, I haven't, I, you know, it was just a few years ago that I went, oh wait, you know, there's a, I mean, I conceptually kind of knew it, but to realize how that plays out and I think so, so at the same time, we're a lot of us, you know, we am saying ministry leaders broadly, we wanna narrow the gap for, you know, and that formality at least of it.
(23:39):
Yet also us still wanna keep the authority.
Hmm.
So I you know, so it's like, so I'm still in charge, but I'm gonna pretend like I'm not, either that or, or, you know.
That's the hand behind the back like right.
And so, you know, I have to, this goes, to me, this goes back to how does love work, yeah.
(24:02):
right? How does love work? I think that we don't really know we're Christians, we're supposed to be known Yeah.
Thanks for listening everyone.
Right.
I, I I think that's, I mean, I'm 47 and I, I I, if I have 40 years left, Lord Yeah.
I, I want to continually beat this drum.
How different would our country, neighborhoods, schools government, b if the first word out of the mouth of unbelievers about us, Angie, was those people know how to Yeah.
(24:36):
Preach.
Yeah.
I mean, what, just, what a different world it would be.
So I'm just gonna beat this drum until Like so love, love works differently than I'm in charge, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you know, you talked about it's different with each person, and so the reality of that is that we can be, try to be more conscious of that dynamic and you know, and ask the question and wisdom, but there's also reality of the other person and what they're putting on us and what their understanding is.
(25:11):
Of that.
And so yeah.
Where, where have you experienced that? Because, so there's people who, and, and among the churches we've all served were non nam, so we had people coming from all sorts of traditions.
So some of them assumed that the pastor would come or that the, you know, or, or whatever stuff is not worked out in their own life that they're transferring to you.
(25:32):
There's that whole piece of it.
there's projection, right? Right.
So what are, what have you been learning about that? Hmm.
Well, this is why I talk openly about, and frequently about church hurt and church Yeah.
I, I, there's this particular habit Angie and our culture to try to distance ourselves from the worst of us.
(25:59):
Mm-hmm.
So for instance you know like as a white dude try to try to distance myself from racism that white people have, or as a pastor, try to distance myself from church And I, I don't, I don't think that does good work for other people.
(26:20):
It's actually pretty self-serving.
I'm just looking to, I'm looking to save myself there.
And I think what's what pretty convinced that part of the what's needed to repair harm that's done is for people who are proximal to the harm, either culpable, complicit, or are coming from the same people group Mm-hmm.
(26:42):
to say, yeah, this is happening and it's bad.
And it's you know, it's not that they're not real Christians.
I, I don't, I'm not, I'm not God.
Christians are hurting people.
People who say they're Christians are hurting people, pastors are leading poorly.
I've led poorly.
like, let's talk about this.
(27:03):
And every time I do Angie, people in our our church tell me thank you for saying that.
Pastors aren't saying this.
Pastors, they wanna scapegoat bad pastors, but they don't wanna include themselves in that naming of Yeah.
So a lot of people just are triggered by me.
cuz I'm a pastor, I'm A white, yeah, white Christian male pastor.
(27:27):
Yep.
and you know, and that's I, I, I, I can hear people like I, some people experience that and they get upset because they think everybody wants to cancel us.
Yeah.
And I don't think that, I mean, I get that, I guess, but like for me it's, I've never been canceled.
If when somebody is hurting in my presence.
(27:48):
And I just say, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You have every right not to trust me.
I don't think I'd trust me either.
If I had your story.
I'm so sorry.
telling you people compassion and like repentance leads to trust.
Like it leads to trust not canceled, not being canceled, Yeah.
(28:10):
you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it is, it is tricky, Angie, because that's a real thing, you know? It's a real Yeah.
Yeah.
How have you, so like you, you know, you talked about friend and you that, like the woman that you said who had had another, you know, miscarriage.
What is when you use that word, friend? I, I wait, I did a podcast episode on Loaded Terms, and I think that's, that has become one.
(28:36):
I remember in Indiana at Greenwood, somebody said, tha thanks friend.
And I was like, are, are we? What is that really? Because.
What does that Yeah.
So when you say friend, and I realized just that I have different, I use that word to mean different things, and so I was having a conversation with a deeper friend as we're, as we're teasing this out, and I'm going, she said, well, I thought you had all these just tons of friends.
(29:01):
I'm like, yeah, but they, I'm using friend in a, a lot of different ways.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So let me give you an example.
I co-pastor with two other guys.
One of the reasons I co-pastor is cuz I need peer friends who were at the center of this thing with me.
So after this interview, Angie, I'm gonna go get on a trail, an urban trail, and I'm gonna walk for an hour and a half with my co-pastor Spencer.
(29:23):
Yeah.
He's a friend.
Yeah.
He and I can have conversations about stuff I wouldn't have with this woman.
Let's call her Yeah.
right? So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna tell Mary, hey Mary, I got this email from this congregant, and it's full of like passive aggressive accusations and I just wanna delete it and never talk to them again.
(29:51):
Yeah, I won't, I won't have that conversation with Mary cuz I don't think it does good work do that because sh Mary knows the person I'm talking about.
And that's kind of gossipy.
I have to have somebody in my life I can say that to who can contain it, But tell me more.
Because, because Mary knows that person, but so does the co-pastor that you're walking with, Right.
(30:15):
But the talk that through.
Yeah.
Well, so like the, we, we.
So we like, we have these, we have these relationships where we can, like, where we agree to hold things with Yeah.
and bear things with each other.
We have a commitment, a, a, a, a more intimate commitment to share and bear where with Mary, we've got a less intimate commitment to Sharon Bear.
(30:41):
And, and I'm thinking through like, I don't want to complain to Mary.
About how hard it is to be a pastor, because that can do weird things to somebody who's not a pastor, Yeah.
right? She can read, she can read like passive aggressive asks or wants in that, has to somehow take responsibility for, oh, I, I, I won't call, I, next time I have a miscarriage, I won't call Matt because it's so hard to be up, you know, all these things that can go under the surface.
(31:12):
Whereas when I'm talking to Spencer, he's a pastor too.
Yeah.
And he's gotta deal with this stuff too.
And it's like just two people, like, I, I need to like get this out.
It's like a confession slash gripe, Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And then, and then it's be, it's better.
Yeah.
And then you just go and you respond to the email.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of the mistakes I, Dave and I made at our, one of our churches in North Carolina was one, I think we put all our eggs in that basket.
(31:40):
So it's like and in the, we, we elevated too many of the congregants to what we thought was a share and bear.
We assumed a share and bear that was not there, just cuz we were young and, you know, at night we just didn't realize that, you know, and so and so sometimes I think we became toxic to our friends because they couldn't, they couldn't bear the sausage to see the sausage being made.
(32:02):
They didn't need to see the sausage being made.
Yeah, just so many things, ways I look back and go, oh, if I had only known so.
Or realized, been aware of the dynamic.
Nothing about any of those individual people.
They were just at where they were at, you know? Or I thought, wow, we invited people to be in our small group.
We had the biggest small group.
(32:24):
Aren't we doing great ministry? Oh, well maybe they all wanted to be in the, say they were in the pastor's group.
Yes, You know, so many ways I've seen this played out, you know, retrospect.
yes.
Yeah.
Yes, totally.
My, my wife feels this too, as a pastor's wife.
She.
She had this experience at a church where she was working in the kids' ministry and this person dropped off their child she tried to chat them up.
(32:48):
They didn't, they, they were new.
They wouldn't give her the time of day.
Like, and she told this to me, she's like, man, I just tried to, this new person tried to welcome them and they were really gruff with me.
Anyway, she saw this person later that day see my wife sitting next to me in, in, in the pew.
This person came right up to my wife to up.
(33:11):
And this has happened for 25 years with, with my wife, where she's unable to have what she considers real relationships.
People are, people see her as a proxy to power and they, they want to, they, they wanna relate to a pastor's wife, not to Sharon.
Yes.
Yeah.
And, and either it's one of, it's, it's either I'm gonna go to that person because now you're the, you're the pastor's wife, or no longer safe because you're the pastor's wife.
(33:40):
exactly.
I've gotten that as well.
It's like, well, yeah.
So it just made it so fraught for.
For us just now that we don't have that in our lives, that dynamic, I'm just realizing how much it was there for so many years Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, like you're, you, you teach now right in the seminary and there's a similar, like you're teaching adults.
(34:04):
Yeah.
These aren't, these aren't minors.
So there's a sense in which you have some kind of like mutuality between a teacher and a student who's an adult, but there's also a sense in which just can't do certain things Yeah.
with a student.
we know this right now.
I'm not saying it's a one-to-one equal with pastoring in a church.
I'm just saying we have all these arenas where we get, there's some kind of and there's some kind of not friendship.
(34:30):
yeah.
And I think the same exists in the church, and I just haven't done a good job of being able to live into that in a way that I feel like is wise.
Yeah.
and, and that benefits other people.
And I benefit too.
I, I'm, I'm, there's still a negotiation there for me about what does that look like? Yeah.
Well, so you and I, you know, we're, we're thinking more about this and reflecting on it and just being aware of it is a huge, you know, the, we're aware of the reality and then what is it in each of these relationships, how much intentionality have you and your co-pastors, do you talk about this with your congregation? I mean, how much intentionally do you have even with, with Mary versus Spencer or Ben and you know, how much do you call that out besides just think about it.
(35:18):
Yeah.
It's a great question, Angie, cuz I ha actually, so my social media is kind of a public, kind of a public sphere interacting with people from all over the place.
But I congregants read my social media.
So I got a couple dms from Congregants who were like, hey, I thought we were friends.
Wow.
Right.
you know, hey, I just want you to know that I don't feel weird.
(35:41):
But Yeah, and I was able to have a mini DTR, right? DTR "Define the Relationship".
Let's make sure people know what that is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
yeah.
But I'm thinking of one guy who's probably 15 years younger than me and we've had a many conversations and have hung out, et cetera, et cetera.
And he says to me like, hey, I, I, I just, I just want you to know, I think we can be friends, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
(36:06):
And in my mind I'm thinking, yes, yes, but.
There's some, so, so, and this is weird too, because I don't want to over, I don't wanna hold my authority over Right.
and be like you, you know what I'm saying? Like, to, you have to defer to me or whatever.
(36:28):
So, so I'm like, okay, this is great.
Yes, this is fantastic and I don't trust that you understand all the dynamics at play being a, being your pastor.
Yeah.
You said this to the person or you're thinking about it.
(36:48):
thinking, Yeah.
I, I just, I just communicated to him, hey, that's great.
You know, I'm glad that, I'm glad that you feel like that.
I feel, I, I think I said something like, even though I don't think it's a peer to peer friendship, meaning equal power, kinda like Spencer and I, I, I said, I still consider you a friend and I appreciate.
(37:08):
This, et cetera, et cetera.
And he seemed like, seemed, that seemed to be sufficient for him, know, I'll have to check in, but I was thinking in my head like, there's yeah, Angie, I'm like losing, I'm like losing words, which is hard for me.
I love the words.
(37:30):
There's some dynamics I'm sorry.
Or you're welcome.
I'm not sure.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Think, I think I'm at the, I'm at the, we're at the margin or at the border The processing of this.
Yeah.
what I've a what I'm able to name, know.
But I do think there's some, there's some complexities that dynamic of being a pastor, that this younger guy, he can't, can't understand.
(37:53):
He's just not inside of it.
He's not inside of it.
And I, I think that I just need to continue to discern it.
Yeah.
But you know, even with you trying to figure out where, where are the words for that you know, and talking about this with each of these people, and I've, I'm, I'm thinking and feeling what people I've had that with in my life and it's, it's a lot of dancing and it's tiring.
(38:18):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's a lot more dancing than a lot of people have to do.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I mean, I, I know I'm, I'm kind of sharing stories here, but No, go for it.
this guy, this guy who, who's like, we're friends, like we had a, a old church meeting a year ago and he did some stuff in that meeting that I was like really upset Mm.
(38:41):
like in my mind, derailed the meeting and did some whatever.
And if it was a friend, if it was Spencer, Yeah.
I would sort of put him on blast.
Like with Spencer or Ben, I would say, what the heck are you doing, man? This is, I don't feel like that was helpful at all.
Here's why, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But with this guy, was, it was way less, I, I wasn't gonna put him on blast because as a pastor, putting a congregant on blast Mm.
(39:10):
is often experienced harm.
it's, it's not.
I can put a peer on blast.
In a way that I c I shouldn't put a congregant on blast.
Yeah, for sure.
What I'm Yeah.
Like say things, my wife can say things to me that she would never say to my 11 year Yeah.
(39:34):
our 11 year old.
It's a similar dynamic there.
So I'm thinking through these things as he's, he's like, yeah, we're friends.
And I'm like, yeah, but if I treated you as though no power what would happen is, you would experience harm for Yeah, you'd be just roasted alive.
Yeah.
You would exp experience harm for me, not because I'm such an awful dude, but because of all the, I think a lot of this church hurt, church abuse stuff.
(40:00):
pastor gets into pastoring and says, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna hurt a bunch of people.
It's just they don't navigate power dynamics well, they don't see it.
And so they don't understand that they're gaslighting Yeah.
don't understand that this is a triangulating gossip, you know? They understand Yeah.
So, yeah, so I, I'm just thinking about how like even, even when people are like, Hey, yeah, we're friends.
(40:24):
I'm thinking, we are, but it's, I need to be probably the one responsible here, putting boundaries around that friendship for your because you're the one who's aware of it.
Yeah.
And that's part of the authority of love.
Love, I think love is seeking the good of another without you know, in, in a way, in a way that doesn't like take away their agency and power in a way that hu re-humanizes them over and over and over.
(40:55):
Yeah.
And if I'm going to bear that authority in our church, I probably need to go, I need to be, I need to lead in that way.
I need to lead in taking that in my relationships, taking that responsibility rather than putting that on somebody else.
Yeah This is also why, like, there's some people in my church who call me Matt.
yeah, some people in my church who call me Father yeah.
(41:18):
Right? Or Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I don't police that.
I, I just say whatever you wanna call me, Yeah.
and, and I prefer to be called Matt.
I think 10 years ago I would've told people not to call me Father Matt.
Just call me Matt, but I'm, I'm experimenting Angie with, let's let you call me what you want, and then as we go, maybe I can hear why you wanna call me that and we can discern is that doing good work Yeah.
(41:48):
Right.
Rather than just, nope, just call me Matt.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so, you know, when you, you are bearing so much, you said, you know, more responsibility for the, the authority of, and the power of love and, and and all that.
So we still need.
You know, people listening, ministry leaders, pastors, that doesn't negate our need for friendship, for peer to peer.
(42:12):
In fact, even more so, we need to identify and cultivate those people.
So how have you done that? Where have you or where do you find and make and keep and maintain those friendships? Well, I, I said before I, this is why I co-pastor, Yeah.
So that's one key one right there, right? a huge Or two.
Yeah.
People.
(42:32):
The, I don't know, not the worst thing could happen to me, but it's on the, it's on the list of the worst things that could happen to me would to be in a position at a church where there were no peers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I feel like if I'm, if I'm wishing on other people, I wouldn't wish that on them.
Yes.
Right, right, right.
(42:53):
do you know what I'm Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I'm, I'm a B-plus guy, you know what I mean? I'm not even a really bad guy.
I just, that, that, that's putting myself in a space that's setting me up for failure isolation.
.5Yeah.
The other other thing is I, I've got really good friends, like from college, Yep.
I'm going hiking tomorrow morning with one.
(43:15):
We're gonna do a 14 mile hike Woo.
Good for you.
That's.
yeah, well we're, we're in training to go to the, I mean, but it's in Indiana, so I mean, there's no hill, so I mean, the elevation change is like 17 So, right.
Exactly.
miles.
yeah.
But like this guy was looking for a church about five years ago.
Lives close to me, lives in Carmel.
And I was thinking, I, is it weird if I extended an invitation to him? Yeah.
(43:39):
And then part of me was thinking like, you know what? He is like, he's a guy that, you know, he's a guy that has seen me at my worst, so, and I don't, there's no ecclesial relationship, so I don't have to pastor don't have to be Pastor Matt.
He was a college friend, you said? Yes.
(44:02):
You've known from before.
Yeah.
yeah, And honestly, like I was reticent to invite him to come to our church.
Yeah.
I, I Everything up.
It just complicates It introduces something, I think.
I did invite him and they chose to go somewhere else.
That's fine.
But I really appreciate relationships of like long-term relationships where th no one's asking me to be a pastor or no one's expecting me to be a pastor.
(44:30):
I get just to, I get to be Matt, dad, Matt, friend Matt, Yeah.
Goofy Matt, kinds of things.
How's that work out? You know, like all the churches we were a part of were pastoring you know, we were.
Small groups were a big piece of it.
And so, you know, I told you the first, you know, one of our first churches in North Carolina was, we'll just open it up to anybody who wants to be a part of it and realized, oh, a lot of 'em, when they were unhappy with the church, they left the church, they left the relationship, or they viewed us as the role.
(44:58):
So we became Yes.
extremely discerning about we're gonna pick our people.
Mm-hmm.
it was always people who.
Had seen sa, the, the church sausage being made.
They weren't afraid of that.
They didn't, for what, you know, we felt they could potentially view us as Dave and Angie, not Pastor Dave and pastor's wife Angie or Dr.
(45:18):
Angie or any of the, any of the, the, you know, the titles or the adjectives.
What about for you guys for, besides the co-pastor stuff and as a couple as well, ministry couple.
Yeah.
I think that, I mean, in terms of my wife and I relationships in the church.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, we've had, we've got friendships there, you know, we've got good friends there.
(45:43):
You know, we recently left our denomination and joined another one long story.
there were people that had made friend overtures, friend commitments to my wife who just.
Left ended the From within the congregation or where had they, Yeah.
(46:03):
so when you left the denomination, it was kind of okay.
Yeah, It was like they couldn't come with us you know, we won't even get into the Right, right.
But yeah.
but the, but the net result was my wife experiences, all of these tethers are temporary.
at any time you can decide to end this relationship Without any, like, do anything wrong.
(46:29):
There's just, you know, whatever.
And there's kind of this, a, there's an, is hard to talk about cause it sounds like pass, like, sounds like as a pastor, I'm complaining, I just wanna name this though.
When you give your heart to people and you connect yourself to them, and then they break that relationship for reasons that you wouldn't break any other relationship, Yeah.
(46:53):
right.
Mm-hmm.
It, it, there's, there's a moral injury.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it, a compassion, compassion fatigue, and you end up wanting to not hurt as much, Yep.
right? So we protect ourselves from hurt, right? And I think.
I think what I'm trying to navigate here is I don't want to become this distant, hard-hearted, fake guy who pretends like they're connected to you, but really isn't.
(47:22):
But I also know that I don't know if I've got, I don't know if my heart is up for another 20 years of being stomped on.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, Angie, like between those two.
Yeah.
I'm looking for a yes that is faithful and sustainable.
(47:47):
Now that's, that's where I'm at.
My wife is in a season of like, I just need to go on walks with the Jewish lady in our neighborhood Yeah.
who, who's been my friend for eight years.
Doesn't give a rip that you're a pastor and I know won't leave all of a sudden Yeah.
(48:09):
you know, for some crazy reason they didn't like the new song we did, you know, or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just, I feel like you know, in this context, those who are listening and watching, if, if, you know, that's your situation and I've found it's so easy for the.
Well, I should because I'm their pastor.
I'm their pastor, you know, kind of thing.
And, and if you, it's okay to have some times of space and breaks, I just want people to hear that and let that soak in because if you are pushing for, because of the shoulds, you're, you are doing yourself, your heart harm.
(48:46):
And I think the people that you are shoulding Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I agree.
So, and if Deb, you know, Deb, Deb is your wife, is that right? You know, if she needs that.
No, Sharon, Sharon.
Deb what? Deb's, Ben.
Yeah.
Ben's wife.
The co Yeah.
And they were, they're leading a silent retreat I think right now.
(49:08):
So they can't hear what they're saying.
What what I'm saying? So yeah, Sharon.
Yeah.
So if Sharon needs that, and there was times, and that's was a season where I reached out to you guys.
Mm.
And, and and it wasn't for Bar and she, but I was just like, okay, you know, here's some it was that same season of, okay, who are, who are my people? It was becoming hard for, you know, season.
(49:29):
So, yeah.
Yeah, finding those people and sometimes they're temporary.
I, you know, I just learned I needed a, a web of relationships, some in the church, some in the community, in my area.
Some from way past, some from who live way far away, you know? And so that if any one of those, I feel pretty confident now, if any one of those strands were to just be shredded, be would to break, I have enough other strands on that web that I wouldn't fall through.
(50:03):
Yeah, and that's, I mean, I think that's really important.
It, it's really, I mean, friendship in general is hard for people who are 20 years, 30 years outta college.
Yeah.
And you have moved three or four times and there's no longer sitting, at the travel volleyball Yep.
Yeah, a week with the parents.
(50:23):
yeah, these different ways that we had to be in community with each other, they kind of fall away.
And you know, we're just old Yeah.
and do we have friends Yeah.
We have.
You have it's work, like you gotta find it.
Yeah.
Cultivate that with your people.
Yeah.
It's work.
And I think I, I think there's, there's a need I have for friends.
(50:43):
Maybe.
Maybe I wanna say it like this.
Let me try this out.
There's a need I have for friends that I don't think is wise to get those needs met with my congregants.
Yes.
Yeah, I would agree.
Yeah.
Now, not, not every relational need is that, but there are relational needs I have that if I.
(51:06):
Again, we get this with like a therapist.
Like, like a, if a therapist tries to get their relational needs for friends met with their clients, like they could lose their job Yeah.
right now, it's not that, but there's something in that in the pastor-congregant dynamic that I'm trying to get my hands around.
Yeah, and I think all those things you said are true.
(51:26):
There are relational needs.
I have.
You have.
We have.
So there's a reality of that.
We don't lose those needs ever Okay.
that should be need to be met, but not necessarily with some congregants or all of your congregants or any of your congregants.
And that's not a.
Judgment on them or on it's just the reality of all those kinds.
(51:49):
reality.
Yeah.
And I'm sympathetic to people saying, well, it shouldn't be a reality.
Right? So, you know, Jesus says, I, I no longer call you servants.
I call you friends.
And so if there's any reality of this, it's due to the fallen nature and we should work against it.
I, I think I agree with that, but I wanna work against it in a different way than it's usually, what's usually meant is, let's, let's flatten everything.
(52:09):
get rid of all, let's get rid of all distinctions or statuses and let's just, let's be all peers.
And I.
I've seen that cause a lot of harm.
Yeah.
I, I do think though they're right in the sense that our hierarchies are made up of control and domination those hierarchies hurt people.
Yeah.
(52:30):
Yeah.
So again, between the control domination and the everything flat, there's this wide.
You know, prairie, that we need to kinda Yeah, out like therapist, client or mom with a nursing infant Yeah.
dad to an 11 year we have an imagination Yes.
how good hierarchies Mm-hmm.
(52:51):
where there isn't domination coercion.
Right.
And if those hierarchies went away, instance, with the infant, there would be no life.
There'd just be death.
Yeah.
So, so I'm just saying like, we already.
Tolerate and affirm these, what I'm saying in other spaces, and I think I haven't been privy to a lot of discourse around how does that take shape Yeah.
(53:16):
a church.
Yep.
Yeah.
Well, thanks for having that conversation with me.
I really appreciate it.
So good.
Angie, it's always good to chat with you.
Yeah.
I, people can follow, you do so much good work all over the place.
The Gravity Leadership, it's dot com, right? So there's that, and there podcast is fantastic.
One of my favorites.
(53:37):
Matt also just recently started a Substack.
So he is writing regular and it's regularly.
So it's Matt Tebbe at substack.com
and it's M-A-T-T-T-E-B-B-E.
It's his first name, last name.
But I was like, how many, that's a lot of Ts right there in a row.
And then you and Ben have another book in the work, so tell me more, just briefly about that.
(53:59):
Yeah, we're trying to figure out how to market it so that it'll get published it's a love.
And every time I talk about love, the publishers are like, yeah, yeah, Okay.
Well, here you go.
Refine your elevator pitch a little bit with, with us.
I think, I think you know, a lot is being written about division polarization and conflict in the church and how we need to overcome it.
(54:20):
I think I wanna write a book about love that, that.
It takes its context in disagreement, conflict and polarization.
And how does love operate to work through that? Right.
So I think there, the two dominant responses to division is to pretend like it's not there and just ignore it or to marshal sort of arguments and try to win it.
(54:45):
And I think that love operates differently in the midst of division and polarization.
And I, so the next book is gonna be about how we live in grace and truth in the midst of disagreements, divisions and polarizations.
Hmm.
Great.
Very cool.
Looking forward to that one as well.
So, Thanks.
Matt, thanks again for being on.
(55:06):
So glad to have you on the, on the podcast and boy, And I'm really excited that you are, have started this, Angie.
It's been a awesome.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome back to the Big C Church Podcast.
I am your host, Dr.
Angie Ward.
Our goal with the podcast is to have challenging conversations to better the body, to have the hard conversations that can help foster hope for the church and the people of God.
So my guest today is Matt Tebbe, and I almost introduced myself as welcome to the Gravity Leadership Podcast because that's part of his role is.
(00:31):
Host of the Gravity co-host of the Gravity Leadership Podcast, which I have appeared, been honored to appear on.
Matt is in Indianapolis.
He's, he's a, a co of a lot of things.
Co-host of the Gravity Leadership Podcast, co-founder of Gravity Leadership, co-pastor of the Table Church in Indianapolis, co-author with Ben Sternke of Having the Mind of Christ, great book with InterVarsity Press.
(01:00):
So a lot of co, a lot of those with Ben Sternke.
That yeah.
And so I'm happy to co with him today on this episode of the podcast.
And, and I do a littles or kind of a questionnaire for guests and how do you want me to introduce you? And Matt said, pastor, and said, you can get my bio from the other stuff.
So this, I gave the bio stuff, but Matt pastor, pastor Matt.
(01:23):
I love that because that's really, actually, I don't know if you even remember.
This is, that's how I first got to know you.
I was living on the south side of Indianapolis, which is Greenwood area where we moved to Denver from, but was going through kind of a questioning, deconstructing church season and some stuff in life and some of, related to some of the stuff we're gonna talk about today, which is pastors and friendships as a part of a series on pastors and power.
(01:49):
But so was feeling kind of isolated, had questions, Matt, I knew of Matt and Ben and so I just kind of cold emailed them and said, hey, can we get together? And so pastored me, so thank you.
Mm.
Yeah.
thanks for being a guest on The Big C Church Podcast.
it's great to be here.
I'm a big fan of the Big C Yeah, I know you are.
(02:11):
I know, I, you're, I love, love that we can have this conversation.
So yeah, like I said, so I'm doing this kind of mini series on pastors and power and you posted, I'm bringing it up here on my phone cause I took a screenshot not long ago.
You posted on your Twitter, you said a word about the hazards of being a pastor and friendship.
(02:31):
And says we can't really be friends with the people we spend the most time with.
There's power differentials there layers of responsibility and commitments that make peer to peer friendship impossible.
And you go on a thread from there.
But that's the, the first part.
And, and I am immediately, and as I was telling you before we hit record I've been in ministry all my adult life.
(02:53):
I've been a pastor's wife for all of my married life, or I would say married to a pastor.
I would always say, I may be married to a pastor, but I'll never be air quotes a pastor's wife.
But I've realized that I always was a pastor's wife to people, and there's this.
Hmm.
So reflecting here where we got to Denver, Colorado three years ago first time we didn't move for a job as pastor or for a role like that and where the, you know, we didn't have that title.
(03:22):
And so forming friendships outside of that context of the pastorate or pastor's liveliness.
And also then realizing along the church, the many churches that we've served at in North Carolina, Minnesota, Indiana, and how that dynamic of the, the, the power pastors in power has affected our friendships, my friendships, Dave and me and all that.
(03:47):
So my first question for you, and we'll just, you know, I'm sure we'll have a great conversation unfold, but like, what led you to post that in the first place? Yeah, great question, Angie.
I think it's because I.
When I first got into ministry, I wasn't sure what it meant to be a pastor.
I just didn't know.
I didn't And how old were you? Tell me like little bit of that journey.
(04:09):
Yeah.
It was basically right outta college.
So both.
Same.
Same thing.
Both of us.
22, 23, young adult.
Yeah, I think I had, think I knew what I didn't want to I didn't want to be of a dictatorial, sort of person who just kind of had a lot of distance.
(04:29):
I've always been a relational person, so I wanted to actually be friendly with the people I was Mm-hmm.
And over the next few decades realized that I was trying not to be.
So what led me to post that was I was trying not to be a certain kind of I think wasn't good for me or for others and could cause harm.
(04:50):
And in trying to stay away from that, I think I ended up unintentionally causing harm.
Hmm.
And so, and and we can talk about that kind of harm for a second, but what led me to post this was trying to piece together why did, why did that happen? And how do, how do, how do I make, you know, do I name that and begin to rectify it? I have, I have begun to rectify it, but how do I begin to name that? Cause I, I wonder if other pastors are experiencing this tension as well.
(05:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, we can, you know, get into this more, but you said the response, you were not prepared for the response you got.
Yeah.
I mean, I had people saying I disagree.
I'm a pastor of a church and I have great friendships.
I had people say problem is that you, Your, your problem is that you see power wrong.
(05:47):
It should, it shouldn't be like this.
Jesus called people friends.
And, and so a lot of, I think a lot of assumptions were made about where I was coming from.
Like, I think a lot of people read into it that there should be lots of distance and you shouldn't be honest or known by people.
I think people read into what I was trying to say and honestly, like most of my social media posts, Angie, it, I didn't craft it.
(06:08):
I didn't have a rough Yeah.
You just went, hey, I'm thinking about this.
Yeah.
just, I just think out loud on so I probably would word things differently.
I said pastors can't really have friendships and I meant that in a quote, "friendship way" I tried to clarify peer to peer but I do think there's different kinds of friendships that, that have to account for authority Mm-hmm.
(06:33):
power differentials or else the person with more power.
Could often unintentionally cause injury or harm.
If a, if a person with power and authority doesn't steward it intentionally huh.
and learn to walk wisely with it, they can end up causing harm that, that they didn't intend.
(06:57):
Yeah.
And that's, that's what I was trying to reckon with in that Yeah.
Well so since you stirred the pot, let's keep stirring.
So so tell me more about how you came to, to learn what you, you know, you kind of posted about as you were thinking about, and whatever degree you're willing to share as far as some, you know, either where you stumbled into stuff and went, oh, there's a, a power thing here.
(07:20):
Just what were some of those markers that have.
Shaped your, where you're at now on that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there, there was a, there was a, there was a church conflict that I was a part of about 15 years Hmm.
where, certain congregants were bringing questions and concerns about another congregant and their relationships, friendships with people, the opposite sex.
(07:49):
And I, I, as the pastor, didn't handle the conflict between congregants very well because I didn't.
I wasn't stewarding role as the shepherd of the community.
Well, I tried to stay, I tried to stay neutral.
I tried to stay I tried to treat it as though it was a, of this conflict was happening among peers and equals, and it really, and it really wasn't.
(08:15):
And so the person who was being accused of wrongdoing didn't experience my presence with them as care.
They, they experienced my presence, and we've talked about this and, and we have rectified our relationship.
We've made up.
But they kind of always, I always felt to them like I was holding a hand behind my Mm.
Like I had the, I had the authority or power to make decisions or to adjudicate this, and I wasn't being honest and upfront about that.
(08:44):
And so it always felt like they were guessing.
.5what, what's going on here? So that's, that's Yeah.
Know, I'm thinking about I'm thinking about as well, I had had some, some, some friends who were my age in a church.
I was pastoring.
And could just be a peculiarity of my generation or just my personality.
But I, I make a lot of jokes and, you know what I'm saying? And, when I would hang out with them, we would make jokes and.
(09:10):
It was fine from my perspective, but years later, this person to me that he called it you, you, you kind of big brother me.
Huh.
And what he meant by that was I looked up to you, you're like a role model to me, and then when you make jokes at my expense, right.
(09:35):
It feels like you're, I.
You're dunking on a, on a, on a toddler, you know, me in a headlock and giving me a Now that I, I wasn't at all thinking that you know, I'm sure I made one or two or more inappropriate jokes, but, but he experienced my jokes differently than I intended, it was because I was treating, reckoning with the fact that I have a place in his life that I need to steward well, yeah, for his sake.
(10:06):
yeah, Yeah, so those are two of many I was maybe too familiar too, too unassuming about what is actually going on, which is there is a vested authority in me.
We can talk more about what that power is, but there's a vested authority in me, and if I don't steward it well, it's not wise, and it could lead to harm.
(10:31):
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
And, and I, I think, tell, tell me what you think.
Just that I think you and I both.
You know when we went into oc, you know, ministry, vocational ministry, you, we both had an idea of, well, we don't wanna be that, you know, kind of thing.
But we grew up in an era where of like the megachurch and the more, but a more familiarity like pastor, you know, the like, now you're in a tradition that still wears clerical, gar, but, but the ones that I grew up in were not that at all and very much tried to downplay any type of distinction.
(11:03):
So the church, we, and when we were in New Hope in Indiana, some people would refer to my husband's even still five years ago as pastor, and he would say, I'm not pastor, I'm just Dave.
You know, so, so I've seen, you know, the churches I grew up in and even in seminary, like there was this movement toward.
Familiarity in all, all respects in clothing, language, in where you put a pulpit or what that even looks like.
(11:29):
You remove the distance from people.
But, and this where I wanna hear what you say, like what the reality is, there is still a power reality or an authority reality there, regardless of how much we try to downplay.
Mm-hmm.
it was, it was.
I am I don't know, embarrassed, I'm not ashamed, but like to realize, to admit that it wasn't until just a few years before we left Indiana.
(11:55):
And so we've been in, in, you know, married, in pastoral ministry for 20, 23, 24, 25 years.
We regularly would have people into their, into our homes because we wanna show hospitality and, hey, not probably a little bit, we're normal people too, kind of thing.
And I, and it, and it finally dawned on me, Because some people would just come and become a stiff.
(12:17):
Other people were like, Hey, this is great.
But I was like, oh, wait, duh.
Some people view this as, oh my goodness, I'm going to the pastor's house.
I'm not just going to David.
It took me that long to realize, like you said, how that person felt.
Despite my best efforts to minimize any type of gap there.
(12:37):
yes, yes.
Yes.
Angie, I, I think that's right on.
And then, then we can, we can get to then the conversation of, I mean, okay, so let me, let me just say there's an, there's analogies here, right? So I have a 14 year old and 11 year old, and I'm constantly wanting them to have a familiarity with me and a trust of me and intimacy with But, but I, I also know that I have to be the dad.
(13:02):
Yeah. 139 00:13:03,447.5 --> 00:13:06,770 I can't be just your buddy, So we get that.
Like I, I go to the doctor's office.
I don't need my doctor to be my Right.
I, you know what I'm And so there's, there's these other arenas where we get that friendship isn't the highest virtue.
Peer-to-peer friendship isn't the highest virtue in this relationship.
And I think that same exists for a pastor, even though I think there's a kind of, there's a kind of friendship we can have, but, but I, I think then, what makes people freak out about this is that typically when we talk about power and authority, we're, we're, I think, using those words synonymously with like control Yes.
(13:43):
or domination.
Yeah.
And that's what you and I, I think our instinct is to stay away from domination.
I don't wanna dominate anybody, you know.
But but staying away from domination doesn't mean that we're actually moving towards virtue.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
So true.
Right.
staying away from the bad doesn't mean we back into the good.
(14:05):
We actually have to have a good that we're moving towards.
And so that's what I'm, that's what I'm, I'm mostly interested in now is if it's not just, we're all friends, everything's equal, and if I ignore power, it'll go away and it won't do any bad work or you know, note.
I had a pastor once say to me, none of my staff has ever been in my house and they never will.
(14:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, That kind of distance separation.
I don't, I don't want to live like that.
That doesn't appeal to me as a human.
But what, what's the good that, I dunno if in between is the right word or in distinction from those two ditches.
what, that's what I'm most interested yeah.
The first pastor that we served under in Minnesota, he told my husband, he said he was taught, never become friends with your, your staff, because you, one day you may have to fire them.
(14:52):
Yes.
This is what I mean.
This is, this is one of the, this is another way that I saw this, by the way.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Tell me about that.
it, it, well, you know, it's common for pastors like you and I to talk about the church as a family, Yeah, yeah, right.
For the family of God, brothers and sisters.
(15:13):
But, but Angie, you don't, you don't fire a sister.
yeah.
You fire an Yeah.
right? Yep.
And, and you know, you left your church in Greenwood while you were there, you were making all kinds of commitments and promises with your Mm-hmm.
that, that when you leave, no longer are Mm-hmm.
(15:37):
fulfill.
But we're playing a bit there fast and loose maybe with our relational circuits.
for sure.
Because even though those people in Greenwood know, okay, Angie's been released from our, being our pastor, pastor's wife, she's got, she's got this thing in Denver, she's doing, there still are these tether points that we made were just kind of ripped away.
(16:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what I realized is to many of those people, and we, and you know, there's, so there's the staff friendships piece, there's the or co co-leader piece, there's the congregation piece, and I, and I've realized after enough moves that we had some degree of friendship while we were there and shared life, but ultimately to many of them I was, we fulfilled a role and a function, and so I've seen it cut the other way as well where I I thought there was more.
(16:32):
It wasn't just about, you know, the, the role, but they're, they were ascribing the role to me, and that's why they, there was some sort of relationship or connection there.
And once that was gone, I've just learned my true friends are the ones that keep in touch after you've moved from a place, you know? So I think it, it works both ways just because we're not aware of kind of calling out that piece of it, just, it's just a reality.
(16:57):
So tell me, you know, what, what, from your perspective, So not, not domination, but what, like vested authority.
Talk to me about your understanding, what you're learning about that.
Yeah.
So it, it's been really helpful for me.
Th th this is one of the many things that has pushed me to be more clear about.
What is the not so among you leadership Jesus tells his followers to embody? Right.
(17:24):
And you know, we have lots of words.
Servant leadership, leadership.
You know, we have all these phrases, but, but when I, and we've talked about this before, Angie, just personally, when I think about, how do I sum it up? I think the world sees authority as the power to control.
But the kingdom sees authority as the power to Mm-hmm.
(17:45):
and, and let me point it out.
Power is not automatically bad.
I think sometimes in society we, like in our, in our climate where power is automatically I evil or ill, and that's not true.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I mean, in fact power is unavoidable.
mm.
Yeah.
know, hold an infant in your hands.
(18:07):
If you don't exercise your power for that infant's good, you get a, you can get arrested.
Like, there's so many ways in which powers what it, what it means to be human is to have some kind of power in some arena.
And our job.
And you know, when you read the scriptures, like, you know, the, the, the new Jerusalem, revelation 21 is, is about heaven coming home to earth the people of God being with power.
(18:37):
To rule and reign as coregents of the cosmos with Christ.
So our, where we're going in terms of eternal life is God is looking for people who can bear his power well.
Yeah.
and so there's a, you know, I won't go on a long rant on that, but I, I, for me then, what does it look like to center my life in this power of how does love work? And I think love works differently than controller Mm-hmm.
(19:09):
Love.
And you know, we can, we can talk, have a whole conversation about that, but, so then, so then my job as a pastor is to carry the to carry the mantle of love for the sake of others, and that looks different person to person in my congregation.
(19:30):
Mm.
It looks so different and, and so it, so we're not talking about techniques, we're talking about wisdom.
We're Yep.
being present and available to God and other people for their benefit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's not a blanket, like you said, it's it's person to person.
(19:51):
There's not one blanket roll.
I mean, it just looks different for your each person, each season, each situation.
Yes.
So yeah, so one of my dearest friends in my church and when I say friend, I mean she's got a leadership role at our church.
She and I have had lots of laughs together, lots of good stuff together, she, has gone through a really hard year of multiple miscarriages.
(20:21):
And she indicated to me this week in a public setting that they'd had another one.
She's very vague about it, Yeah, but she caught it.
Yeah.
she was referring Yeah.
And so in that moment, you know, she, so this is just an example of how it takes wisdom to know I was thinking, do I indicate to her that I picked up what she was saying? Would that benefit Mm-hmm.
(20:45):
I, is she in a place where she wants.
Her, her friend, but, but also her, her pastor, her priest, to indicate that he picked up on that.
And so I was just thinking about this, like, will this increase? Does she just, she, does she need space or does she need me to move towards her don't know, but I'm, you know, it's a discernment thing, we do as pastors or even as Yeah.
(21:10):
By the way, I think 20 years ago, I just would've moved towards her and I would not have question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's, that's a different thing But then I just said, hey, I, I don't presume you want to talk about this or need to talk about it with me, but I'm so sorry Yeah.
It kinda, I noticed and, I noticed sorry, and I'm praying for you.
I just kind of left it there yeah.
(21:32):
and I was right.
She was, she did not wanna talk about it.
you know, it was like, yes, it's been, it's just awful and my body is I'm just so and I said, well, you know, my wife and I had seven years of trying to have kids before we could have one.
So if you ever need to talk about it, I'm here.
That's a different conversation than I would've had with another person.
(21:55):
it had a lot to do with so many factors like, In our relationship and me as her priest, like in like influenced the way I tried to handle that situation.
Yeah.
So that, that's just one example of like, it, it looks different depending upon who, who the congregant is how it works.
(22:18):
yeah.
culturally too, Angie, I don't know, like when we were kids, pastors just showed up in the hospital room when kids were born.
Or just showed up after your surgery at your house, Right.
But culturally, in the last 30 years, 40 years, things have shifted.
yeah, And so now, now I find myself, not presuming that I'm wanted, but asking for some kind of consent or, or invitation before I do that, that is a navigating power.
(22:48):
yeah.
Right? And we, I think most pastors listening can.
Relate to that shift, but that's an indication of what we're talking about, Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I was thinking, you know, like you said, 20 years ago, I would just moved toward this person, you know, and, and and I, you know, I was thinking like how many p pastors, people in leadership, ministry leadership really have given.
(23:16):
Much thought, not much.
I, in my experience, I haven't, I, you know, it was just a few years ago that I went, oh wait, you know, there's a, I mean, I conceptually kind of knew it, but to realize how that plays out and I think so, so at the same time, we're a lot of us, you know, we am saying ministry leaders broadly, we wanna narrow the gap for, you know, and that formality at least of it.
(23:39):
Yet also us still wanna keep the authority.
Hmm.
So I you know, so it's like, so I'm still in charge, but I'm gonna pretend like I'm not, either that or, or, you know.
That's the hand behind the back like right.
And so, you know, I have to, this goes, to me, this goes back to how does love work, yeah.
(24:02):
right? How does love work? I think that we don't really know we're Christians, we're supposed to be known Yeah.
Thanks for listening everyone.
Right.
I, I I think that's, I mean, I'm 47 and I, I I, if I have 40 years left, Lord Yeah.
I, I want to continually beat this drum.
How different would our country, neighborhoods, schools government, b if the first word out of the mouth of unbelievers about us, Angie, was those people know how to Yeah.
(24:36):
Preach.
Yeah.
I mean, what, just, what a different world it would be.
So I'm just gonna beat this drum until Like so love, love works differently than I'm in charge, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you know, you talked about it's different with each person, and so the reality of that is that we can be, try to be more conscious of that dynamic and you know, and ask the question and wisdom, but there's also reality of the other person and what they're putting on us and what their understanding is.
(25:11):
Of that.
And so yeah.
Where, where have you experienced that? Because, so there's people who, and, and among the churches we've all served were non nam, so we had people coming from all sorts of traditions.
So some of them assumed that the pastor would come or that the, you know, or, or whatever stuff is not worked out in their own life that they're transferring to you.
(25:32):
There's that whole piece of it.
there's projection, right? Right.
So what are, what have you been learning about that? Hmm.
Well, this is why I talk openly about, and frequently about church hurt and church Yeah.
I, I, there's this particular habit Angie and our culture to try to distance ourselves from the worst of us.
(25:59):
Mm-hmm.
So for instance you know like as a white dude try to try to distance myself from racism that white people have, or as a pastor, try to distance myself from church And I, I don't, I don't think that does good work for other people.
(26:20):
It's actually pretty self-serving.
I'm just looking to, I'm looking to save myself there.
And I think what's what pretty convinced that part of the what's needed to repair harm that's done is for people who are proximal to the harm, either culpable, complicit, or are coming from the same people group Mm-hmm.
(26:42):
to say, yeah, this is happening and it's bad.
And it's you know, it's not that they're not real Christians.
I, I don't, I'm not, I'm not God.
Christians are hurting people.
People who say they're Christians are hurting people, pastors are leading poorly.
I've led poorly.
like, let's talk about this.
(27:03):
And every time I do Angie, people in our our church tell me thank you for saying that.
Pastors aren't saying this.
Pastors, they wanna scapegoat bad pastors, but they don't wanna include themselves in that naming of Yeah.
So a lot of people just are triggered by me.
cuz I'm a pastor, I'm A white, yeah, white Christian male pastor.
(27:27):
Yep.
and you know, and that's I, I, I, I can hear people like I, some people experience that and they get upset because they think everybody wants to cancel us.
Yeah.
And I don't think that, I mean, I get that, I guess, but like for me it's, I've never been canceled.
If when somebody is hurting in my presence.
(27:48):
And I just say, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You have every right not to trust me.
I don't think I'd trust me either.
If I had your story.
I'm so sorry.
telling you people compassion and like repentance leads to trust.
Like it leads to trust not canceled, not being canceled, Yeah.
(28:10):
you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it is, it is tricky, Angie, because that's a real thing, you know? It's a real Yeah.
Yeah.
How have you, so like you, you know, you talked about friend and you that, like the woman that you said who had had another, you know, miscarriage.
What is when you use that word, friend? I, I wait, I did a podcast episode on Loaded Terms, and I think that's, that has become one.
(28:36):
I remember in Indiana at Greenwood, somebody said, tha thanks friend.
And I was like, are, are we? What is that really? Because.
What does that Yeah.
So when you say friend, and I realized just that I have different, I use that word to mean different things, and so I was having a conversation with a deeper friend as we're, as we're teasing this out, and I'm going, she said, well, I thought you had all these just tons of friends.
(29:01):
I'm like, yeah, but they, I'm using friend in a, a lot of different ways.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So let me give you an example.
I co-pastor with two other guys.
One of the reasons I co-pastor is cuz I need peer friends who were at the center of this thing with me.
So after this interview, Angie, I'm gonna go get on a trail, an urban trail, and I'm gonna walk for an hour and a half with my co-pastor Spencer.
(29:23):
Yeah.
He's a friend.
Yeah.
He and I can have conversations about stuff I wouldn't have with this woman.
Let's call her Yeah.
right? So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna tell Mary, hey Mary, I got this email from this congregant, and it's full of like passive aggressive accusations and I just wanna delete it and never talk to them again.
(29:51):
Yeah, I won't, I won't have that conversation with Mary cuz I don't think it does good work do that because sh Mary knows the person I'm talking about.
And that's kind of gossipy.
I have to have somebody in my life I can say that to who can contain it, But tell me more.
Because, because Mary knows that person, but so does the co-pastor that you're walking with, Right.
(30:15):
But the talk that through.
Yeah.
Well, so like the, we, we.
So we like, we have these, we have these relationships where we can, like, where we agree to hold things with Yeah.
and bear things with each other.
We have a commitment, a, a, a, a more intimate commitment to share and bear where with Mary, we've got a less intimate commitment to Sharon Bear.
(30:41):
And, and I'm thinking through like, I don't want to complain to Mary.
About how hard it is to be a pastor, because that can do weird things to somebody who's not a pastor, Yeah.
right? She can read, she can read like passive aggressive asks or wants in that, has to somehow take responsibility for, oh, I, I, I won't call, I, next time I have a miscarriage, I won't call Matt because it's so hard to be up, you know, all these things that can go under the surface.
(31:12):
Whereas when I'm talking to Spencer, he's a pastor too.
Yeah.
And he's gotta deal with this stuff too.
And it's like just two people, like, I, I need to like get this out.
It's like a confession slash gripe, Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And then, and then it's be, it's better.
Yeah.
And then you just go and you respond to the email.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of the mistakes I, Dave and I made at our, one of our churches in North Carolina was one, I think we put all our eggs in that basket.
(31:40):
So it's like and in the, we, we elevated too many of the congregants to what we thought was a share and bear.
We assumed a share and bear that was not there, just cuz we were young and, you know, at night we just didn't realize that, you know, and so and so sometimes I think we became toxic to our friends because they couldn't, they couldn't bear the sausage to see the sausage being made.
(32:02):
They didn't need to see the sausage being made.
Yeah, just so many things, ways I look back and go, oh, if I had only known so.
Or realized, been aware of the dynamic.
Nothing about any of those individual people.
They were just at where they were at, you know? Or I thought, wow, we invited people to be in our small group.
We had the biggest small group.
(32:24):
Aren't we doing great ministry? Oh, well maybe they all wanted to be in the, say they were in the pastor's group.
Yes, You know, so many ways I've seen this played out, you know, retrospect.
yes.
Yeah.
Yes, totally.
My, my wife feels this too, as a pastor's wife.
She.
She had this experience at a church where she was working in the kids' ministry and this person dropped off their child she tried to chat them up.
(32:48):
They didn't, they, they were new.
They wouldn't give her the time of day.
Like, and she told this to me, she's like, man, I just tried to, this new person tried to welcome them and they were really gruff with me.
Anyway, she saw this person later that day see my wife sitting next to me in, in, in the pew.
This person came right up to my wife to up.
(33:11):
And this has happened for 25 years with, with my wife, where she's unable to have what she considers real relationships.
People are, people see her as a proxy to power and they, they want to, they, they wanna relate to a pastor's wife, not to Sharon.
Yes.
Yeah.
And, and either it's one of, it's, it's either I'm gonna go to that person because now you're the, you're the pastor's wife, or no longer safe because you're the pastor's wife.
(33:40):
exactly.
I've gotten that as well.
It's like, well, yeah.
So it just made it so fraught for.
For us just now that we don't have that in our lives, that dynamic, I'm just realizing how much it was there for so many years Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, like you're, you, you teach now right in the seminary and there's a similar, like you're teaching adults.
(34:04):
Yeah.
These aren't, these aren't minors.
So there's a sense in which you have some kind of like mutuality between a teacher and a student who's an adult, but there's also a sense in which just can't do certain things Yeah.
with a student.
we know this right now.
I'm not saying it's a one-to-one equal with pastoring in a church.
I'm just saying we have all these arenas where we get, there's some kind of and there's some kind of not friendship.
(34:30):
yeah.
And I think the same exists in the church, and I just haven't done a good job of being able to live into that in a way that I feel like is wise.
Yeah.
and, and that benefits other people.
And I benefit too.
I, I'm, I'm, there's still a negotiation there for me about what does that look like? Yeah.
Well, so you and I, you know, we're, we're thinking more about this and reflecting on it and just being aware of it is a huge, you know, the, we're aware of the reality and then what is it in each of these relationships, how much intentionality have you and your co-pastors, do you talk about this with your congregation? I mean, how much intentionally do you have even with, with Mary versus Spencer or Ben and you know, how much do you call that out besides just think about it.
(35:18):
Yeah.
It's a great question, Angie, cuz I ha actually, so my social media is kind of a public, kind of a public sphere interacting with people from all over the place.
But I congregants read my social media.
So I got a couple dms from Congregants who were like, hey, I thought we were friends.
Wow.
Right.
you know, hey, I just want you to know that I don't feel weird.
(35:41):
But Yeah, and I was able to have a mini DTR, right? DTR "Define the Relationship".
Let's make sure people know what that is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
yeah.
But I'm thinking of one guy who's probably 15 years younger than me and we've had a many conversations and have hung out, et cetera, et cetera.
And he says to me like, hey, I, I, I just, I just want you to know, I think we can be friends, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
(36:06):
And in my mind I'm thinking, yes, yes, but.
There's some, so, so, and this is weird too, because I don't want to over, I don't wanna hold my authority over Right.
and be like you, you know what I'm saying? Like, to, you have to defer to me or whatever.
(36:28):
So, so I'm like, okay, this is great.
Yes, this is fantastic and I don't trust that you understand all the dynamics at play being a, being your pastor.
Yeah.
You said this to the person or you're thinking about it.
(36:48):
thinking, Yeah.
I, I just, I just communicated to him, hey, that's great.
You know, I'm glad that, I'm glad that you feel like that.
I feel, I, I think I said something like, even though I don't think it's a peer to peer friendship, meaning equal power, kinda like Spencer and I, I, I said, I still consider you a friend and I appreciate.
(37:08):
This, et cetera, et cetera.
And he seemed like, seemed, that seemed to be sufficient for him, know, I'll have to check in, but I was thinking in my head like, there's yeah, Angie, I'm like losing, I'm like losing words, which is hard for me.
I love the words.
(37:30):
There's some dynamics I'm sorry.
Or you're welcome.
I'm not sure.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Think, I think I'm at the, I'm at the, we're at the margin or at the border The processing of this.
Yeah.
what I've a what I'm able to name, know.
But I do think there's some, there's some complexities that dynamic of being a pastor, that this younger guy, he can't, can't understand.
(37:53):
He's just not inside of it.
He's not inside of it.
And I, I think that I just need to continue to discern it.
Yeah.
But you know, even with you trying to figure out where, where are the words for that you know, and talking about this with each of these people, and I've, I'm, I'm thinking and feeling what people I've had that with in my life and it's, it's a lot of dancing and it's tiring.
(38:18):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's a lot more dancing than a lot of people have to do.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I mean, I, I know I'm, I'm kind of sharing stories here, but No, go for it.
this guy, this guy who, who's like, we're friends, like we had a, a old church meeting a year ago and he did some stuff in that meeting that I was like really upset Mm.
(38:41):
like in my mind, derailed the meeting and did some whatever.
And if it was a friend, if it was Spencer, Yeah.
I would sort of put him on blast.
Like with Spencer or Ben, I would say, what the heck are you doing, man? This is, I don't feel like that was helpful at all.
Here's why, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But with this guy, was, it was way less, I, I wasn't gonna put him on blast because as a pastor, putting a congregant on blast Mm.
(39:10):
is often experienced harm.
it's, it's not.
I can put a peer on blast.
In a way that I c I shouldn't put a congregant on blast.
Yeah, for sure.
What I'm Yeah.
Like say things, my wife can say things to me that she would never say to my 11 year Yeah.
(39:34):
our 11 year old.
It's a similar dynamic there.
So I'm thinking through these things as he's, he's like, yeah, we're friends.
And I'm like, yeah, but if I treated you as though no power what would happen is, you would experience harm for Yeah, you'd be just roasted alive.
Yeah.
You would exp experience harm for me, not because I'm such an awful dude, but because of all the, I think a lot of this church hurt, church abuse stuff.
(40:00):
pastor gets into pastoring and says, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna hurt a bunch of people.
It's just they don't navigate power dynamics well, they don't see it.
And so they don't understand that they're gaslighting Yeah.
don't understand that this is a triangulating gossip, you know? They understand Yeah.
So, yeah, so I, I'm just thinking about how like even, even when people are like, Hey, yeah, we're friends.
(40:24):
I'm thinking, we are, but it's, I need to be probably the one responsible here, putting boundaries around that friendship for your because you're the one who's aware of it.
Yeah.
And that's part of the authority of love.
Love, I think love is seeking the good of another without you know, in, in a way, in a way that doesn't like take away their agency and power in a way that hu re-humanizes them over and over and over.
(40:55):
Yeah.
And if I'm going to bear that authority in our church, I probably need to go, I need to be, I need to lead in that way.
I need to lead in taking that in my relationships, taking that responsibility rather than putting that on somebody else.
Yeah This is also why, like, there's some people in my church who call me Matt.
yeah, some people in my church who call me Father yeah.
(41:18):
Right? Or Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I don't police that.
I, I just say whatever you wanna call me, Yeah.
and, and I prefer to be called Matt.
I think 10 years ago I would've told people not to call me Father Matt.
Just call me Matt, but I'm, I'm experimenting Angie with, let's let you call me what you want, and then as we go, maybe I can hear why you wanna call me that and we can discern is that doing good work Yeah.
(41:48):
Right.
Rather than just, nope, just call me Matt.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so, you know, when you, you are bearing so much, you said, you know, more responsibility for the, the authority of, and the power of love and, and and all that.
So we still need.
You know, people listening, ministry leaders, pastors, that doesn't negate our need for friendship, for peer to peer.
(42:12):
In fact, even more so, we need to identify and cultivate those people.
So how have you done that? Where have you or where do you find and make and keep and maintain those friendships? Well, I, I said before I, this is why I co-pastor, Yeah.
So that's one key one right there, right? a huge Or two.
Yeah.
People.
(42:32):
The, I don't know, not the worst thing could happen to me, but it's on the, it's on the list of the worst things that could happen to me would to be in a position at a church where there were no peers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I feel like if I'm, if I'm wishing on other people, I wouldn't wish that on them.
Yes.
Right, right, right.
(42:53):
do you know what I'm Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I'm, I'm a B-plus guy, you know what I mean? I'm not even a really bad guy.
I just, that, that, that's putting myself in a space that's setting me up for failure isolation.
.5Yeah.
The other other thing is I, I've got really good friends, like from college, Yep.
I'm going hiking tomorrow morning with one.
(43:15):
We're gonna do a 14 mile hike Woo.
Good for you.
That's.
yeah, well we're, we're in training to go to the, I mean, but it's in Indiana, so I mean, there's no hill, so I mean, the elevation change is like 17 So, right.
Exactly.
miles.
yeah.
But like this guy was looking for a church about five years ago.
Lives close to me, lives in Carmel.
And I was thinking, I, is it weird if I extended an invitation to him? Yeah.
(43:39):
And then part of me was thinking like, you know what? He is like, he's a guy that, you know, he's a guy that has seen me at my worst, so, and I don't, there's no ecclesial relationship, so I don't have to pastor don't have to be Pastor Matt.
He was a college friend, you said? Yes.
(44:02):
You've known from before.
Yeah.
yeah, And honestly, like I was reticent to invite him to come to our church.
Yeah.
I, I Everything up.
It just complicates It introduces something, I think.
I did invite him and they chose to go somewhere else.
That's fine.
But I really appreciate relationships of like long-term relationships where th no one's asking me to be a pastor or no one's expecting me to be a pastor.
(44:30):
I get just to, I get to be Matt, dad, Matt, friend Matt, Yeah.
Goofy Matt, kinds of things.
How's that work out? You know, like all the churches we were a part of were pastoring you know, we were.
Small groups were a big piece of it.
And so, you know, I told you the first, you know, one of our first churches in North Carolina was, we'll just open it up to anybody who wants to be a part of it and realized, oh, a lot of 'em, when they were unhappy with the church, they left the church, they left the relationship, or they viewed us as the role.
(44:58):
So we became Yes.
extremely discerning about we're gonna pick our people.
Mm-hmm.
it was always people who.
Had seen sa, the, the church sausage being made.
They weren't afraid of that.
They didn't, for what, you know, we felt they could potentially view us as Dave and Angie, not Pastor Dave and pastor's wife Angie or Dr.
(45:18):
Angie or any of the, any of the, the, you know, the titles or the adjectives.
What about for you guys for, besides the co-pastor stuff and as a couple as well, ministry couple.
Yeah.
I think that, I mean, in terms of my wife and I relationships in the church.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, we've had, we've got friendships there, you know, we've got good friends there.
(45:43):
You know, we recently left our denomination and joined another one long story.
there were people that had made friend overtures, friend commitments to my wife who just.
Left ended the From within the congregation or where had they, Yeah.
(46:03):
so when you left the denomination, it was kind of okay.
Yeah, It was like they couldn't come with us you know, we won't even get into the Right, right.
But yeah.
but the, but the net result was my wife experiences, all of these tethers are temporary.
at any time you can decide to end this relationship Without any, like, do anything wrong.
(46:29):
There's just, you know, whatever.
And there's kind of this, a, there's an, is hard to talk about cause it sounds like pass, like, sounds like as a pastor, I'm complaining, I just wanna name this though.
When you give your heart to people and you connect yourself to them, and then they break that relationship for reasons that you wouldn't break any other relationship, Yeah.
(46:53):
right.
Mm-hmm.
It, it, there's, there's a moral injury.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it, a compassion, compassion fatigue, and you end up wanting to not hurt as much, Yep.
right? So we protect ourselves from hurt, right? And I think.
I think what I'm trying to navigate here is I don't want to become this distant, hard-hearted, fake guy who pretends like they're connected to you, but really isn't.
(47:22):
But I also know that I don't know if I've got, I don't know if my heart is up for another 20 years of being stomped on.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, Angie, like between those two.
Yeah.
I'm looking for a yes that is faithful and sustainable.
(47:47):
Now that's, that's where I'm at.
My wife is in a season of like, I just need to go on walks with the Jewish lady in our neighborhood Yeah.
who, who's been my friend for eight years.
Doesn't give a rip that you're a pastor and I know won't leave all of a sudden Yeah.
(48:09):
you know, for some crazy reason they didn't like the new song we did, you know, or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just, I feel like you know, in this context, those who are listening and watching, if, if, you know, that's your situation and I've found it's so easy for the.
Well, I should because I'm their pastor.
I'm their pastor, you know, kind of thing.
And, and if you, it's okay to have some times of space and breaks, I just want people to hear that and let that soak in because if you are pushing for, because of the shoulds, you're, you are doing yourself, your heart harm.
(48:46):
And I think the people that you are shoulding Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I agree.
So, and if Deb, you know, Deb, Deb is your wife, is that right? You know, if she needs that.
No, Sharon, Sharon.
Deb what? Deb's, Ben.
Yeah.
Ben's wife.
The co Yeah.
And they were, they're leading a silent retreat I think right now.
(49:08):
So they can't hear what they're saying.
What what I'm saying? So yeah, Sharon.
Yeah.
So if Sharon needs that, and there was times, and that's was a season where I reached out to you guys.
Mm.
And, and and it wasn't for Bar and she, but I was just like, okay, you know, here's some it was that same season of, okay, who are, who are my people? It was becoming hard for, you know, season.
(49:29):
So, yeah.
Yeah, finding those people and sometimes they're temporary.
I, you know, I just learned I needed a, a web of relationships, some in the church, some in the community, in my area.
Some from way past, some from who live way far away, you know? And so that if any one of those, I feel pretty confident now, if any one of those strands were to just be shredded, be would to break, I have enough other strands on that web that I wouldn't fall through.
(50:03):
Yeah, and that's, I mean, I think that's really important.
It, it's really, I mean, friendship in general is hard for people who are 20 years, 30 years outta college.
Yeah.
And you have moved three or four times and there's no longer sitting, at the travel volleyball Yep.
Yeah, a week with the parents.
(50:23):
yeah, these different ways that we had to be in community with each other, they kind of fall away.
And you know, we're just old Yeah.
and do we have friends Yeah.
We have.
You have it's work, like you gotta find it.
Yeah.
Cultivate that with your people.
Yeah.
It's work.
And I think I, I think there's, there's a need I have for friends.
(50:43):
Maybe.
Maybe I wanna say it like this.
Let me try this out.
There's a need I have for friends that I don't think is wise to get those needs met with my congregants.
Yes.
Yeah, I would agree.
Yeah.
Now, not, not every relational need is that, but there are relational needs I have that if I.
(51:06):
Again, we get this with like a therapist.
Like, like a, if a therapist tries to get their relational needs for friends met with their clients, like they could lose their job Yeah.
right now, it's not that, but there's something in that in the pastor-congregant dynamic that I'm trying to get my hands around.
Yeah, and I think all those things you said are true.
(51:26):
There are relational needs.
I have.
You have.
We have.
So there's a reality of that.
We don't lose those needs ever Okay.
that should be need to be met, but not necessarily with some congregants or all of your congregants or any of your congregants.
And that's not a.
Judgment on them or on it's just the reality of all those kinds.
(51:49):
reality.
Yeah.
And I'm sympathetic to people saying, well, it shouldn't be a reality.
Right? So, you know, Jesus says, I, I no longer call you servants.
I call you friends.
And so if there's any reality of this, it's due to the fallen nature and we should work against it.
I, I think I agree with that, but I wanna work against it in a different way than it's usually, what's usually meant is, let's, let's flatten everything.
(52:09):
get rid of all, let's get rid of all distinctions or statuses and let's just, let's be all peers.
And I.
I've seen that cause a lot of harm.
Yeah.
I, I do think though they're right in the sense that our hierarchies are made up of control and domination those hierarchies hurt people.
Yeah.
(52:30):
Yeah.
So again, between the control domination and the everything flat, there's this wide.
You know, prairie, that we need to kinda Yeah, out like therapist, client or mom with a nursing infant Yeah.
dad to an 11 year we have an imagination Yes.
how good hierarchies Mm-hmm.
(52:51):
where there isn't domination coercion.
Right.
And if those hierarchies went away, instance, with the infant, there would be no life.
There'd just be death.
Yeah.
So, so I'm just saying like, we already.
Tolerate and affirm these, what I'm saying in other spaces, and I think I haven't been privy to a lot of discourse around how does that take shape Yeah.
(53:16):
a church.
Yep.
Yeah.
Well, thanks for having that conversation with me.
I really appreciate it.
So good.
Angie, it's always good to chat with you.
Yeah.
I, people can follow, you do so much good work all over the place.
The Gravity Leadership, it's dot com, right? So there's that, and there podcast is fantastic.
One of my favorites.
(53:37):
Matt also just recently started a Substack.
So he is writing regular and it's regularly.
So it's Matt Tebbe at substack.com
and it's M-A-T-T-T-E-B-B-E.
It's his first name, last name.
But I was like, how many, that's a lot of Ts right there in a row.
And then you and Ben have another book in the work, so tell me more, just briefly about that.
(53:59):
Yeah, we're trying to figure out how to market it so that it'll get published it's a love.
And every time I talk about love, the publishers are like, yeah, yeah, Okay.
Well, here you go.
Refine your elevator pitch a little bit with, with us.
I think, I think you know, a lot is being written about division polarization and conflict in the church and how we need to overcome it.
(54:20):
I think I wanna write a book about love that, that.
It takes its context in disagreement, conflict and polarization.
And how does love operate to work through that? Right.
So I think there, the two dominant responses to division is to pretend like it's not there and just ignore it or to marshal sort of arguments and try to win it.
(54:45):
And I think that love operates differently in the midst of division and polarization.
And I, so the next book is gonna be about how we live in grace and truth in the midst of disagreements, divisions and polarizations.
Hmm.
Great.
Very cool.
Looking forward to that one as well.
So, Thanks.
Matt, thanks again for being on.
(55:06):
So glad to have you on the, on the podcast and boy, And I'm really excited that you are, have started this, Angie.
It's been a awesome.
Thank you.
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