Bitcoin in Africa with Abubakar Nur Khalil - Bitcoin Infinity Show #149

Abubakar Nur Khalil is a Bitcoin core contributor and the founder and CEO of Recursive Capital. From coding in Kaduna to shaping Bitcoin’s future, Abubakar shares how he built Recursive Capital, led Btrust, and why Nigeria is primed for Bitcoin adoption.

Connect with Abubakar: https://x.com/ihate1999

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The Bitcoin Infinity Show is a Bitcoin podcast hosted by Knut Svanholm and Luke de Wolf.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Bitcoin mining is probably

(00:01):
the biggest catalyst for
why governments
are starting to take the club
more seriously
on the continent.
They started realizing
that this whole mechanism
of bootstrapping
energy production
by having a buyer first
demand has solved
all the issues that we've had
for decades
in terms of electrification.
So if I was to die
and be brought back again,
and I had to choose
where I'd be born,
I still want to be born
in Nigeria again.
I guess this energy about us
when it comes to
being on your feet

(00:21):
and trying to do things
for yourself
as a lot of things
don't work.
So typically
a lot of people
are brought up
to be a bit
more like grit
and kind of ambition
because you're forced
into that circumstance.
Most people here in Europe
aren't aware of how much
the banks
and central
banks of the Western world
have been screwing
you guys over.
There's this
obvious opportunity
for Africans potential

(00:42):
where it's
been completely extracted.
But internally,
there are a lot of folks
that masquerade
as trying
to help the continent.
But really,
what they're doing
is using Africa as this
marketing campaign for them.
And the reason
some personally
are get into all the rooms
and places
where folks make decisions
about where
they're extracting
resources from Africa.
Abubakar.

(01:03):
Welcome to the
Bitcoin Infinity Show.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, great
to see you again, Abubakar.
We've run into one another
in a couple of
conferences here and there.
During the last year
and I remember the first,
the first time
I heard of you was,
during the week
where we formed the
the Free Madera organization.

(01:25):
So there was
there were all of these
big shots,
like Jeff and Larry and Greg
talking about this boy genius
from Nigeria and, Yeah.
So so you yeah,
you have a very interesting
background story.
You you, became a Bitcoin
core contributor
at an early age.

(01:46):
I mean, we're
very eager
to hear your story.
Not only the Tldr, but like,
maybe the
the, the l, did read,
you know,
so let's start from
the top, please.
And and tell us
about yourself.
Yeah. For sure.
I think
just to give more context,
all started mostly 2017 ish.

(02:07):
And that was about the
same time at,
the price
rally was just
getting to that point.
And I think
one of the main things
as well,
that caught my attention
at that point,
reading up about
baseline was kind of the,
the wars that were happening
at the time
for SegWit and all that.
So that was an interesting
cultural,
cause phenomenon
that was going on
within the Bitcoin space

(02:28):
about redefining what bitcoin
is potentially the future
and kind of where
to pick in terms
of the next steps
for Bitcoin.
So for me,
that was the hurdle
of understanding
what the hell this is.
And then it's harder
given the fact
there's so much
I would say, both information
and misinformation on Exxon
at the time. Twitter.
So at the point I was

(02:49):
just a year
after I graduated
high school,
so we had a lot of time
on my hand.
And the thinking for me
then was the strategy
I had was to take a year out
and then
potentially figure out
what exactly
I could do with my life.
The intention was to go in
and study architecture,
and then that morphed
into engineering
based on the reading
I was doing.
And then,
suffice to say,
by the end of 2017,

(03:10):
I realized that there's
a lot more to
to figure out
about myself specifically.
So by 2018,
I started teaching myself
how to code
as a result of Bitcoin,
mostly because I didn't know
what I was reading.
And for me,
the thinking was simple that
I don't know
what I'm reading,
which is highly, technical.
And the idea
should be teach myself
that the technical
things that are missing out.
So I said to myself,

(03:30):
how to program,
specifically things around
computers, compilers,
all of that.
So I got me into
a bunch of projects, really,
and an open
source specifically.
So cut up a small toy
programing language
based off of a book
called Quality
Programing Interpreter,
something like that
by Robert Nystrom,
which is an insane book
if anyone has already had.
And the idea by

(03:50):
the end of 2018 was to start
understanding the
technical aspects.
So at that point
I was pretty conversant
with Python,
a couple of languages.
My 2019 was
when I realized that Bitcoin
is a proper protocol.
So I started
looking at the GitHub
and I think they had this
October fest thing,
which is pretty popular
for open source projects.
But in October in 2019,
and right about that
same month,

(04:11):
I think I saw a pull request
by another major developer
who became like this.
At that point,
the first Bitcoin
Core computer
from our side of the world.
And it was interesting for me
because I was like, okay,
that actually means
that as possible,
I'll like, you know,
like,
let me just scour
the repo and see what,
what I could
contribute to it.
And I found this pretty.
Now it's a trivial change
in my opinion,

(04:31):
but at that point
I thought I was doing
pretty much
the the huge
task undertaking,
and I was pretty much
the change to the guy.
So at the time,
I really hadn't compiled
core before that.
So you got the PR
involved, me open,
actually
compiling core,
getting into the nitty gritty
about the protocol itself,
specifically looking at
how to actually make changes

(04:52):
to pull requests
or trading
a bunch of other PRS to see
what the culture was like.
And then by 2020
was kind of got merged.
And then ever
since then, it's
been like further
entrenching myself
into the Bitcoin space.
And at that point,
like college didn't become,
you know, a huge priority
because my thinking was,
this is what I want to do
with the rest of my life.
And then

(05:12):
I see roughly the same year
when I
started Recursive
Capital as well,
and then 2021
did some more work
on protocol development,
started Carlo
with Bernard,
Carlino, a bunch of folks,
and then Petrus came along.
So since 2021
to date, it's
just been a lot
more responsibility
to use over the years,
which has further entrenched
both my conviction

(05:32):
for Bitcoin,
but also the reason why
I continue
to stay in the Bitcoin
space earlier,
why I feel
this is such a huge thing
that I could do with my life,
as opposed to other things
as super cool.
I mean,
you grew,
you were born
and grew up in Nigeria,
is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
In Lagos or in in Kaduna.
So it's an hour

(05:53):
away from the capital
up north, right.
All right, all right.
And this is so
it's like the, the,
the last place on Earth
where you'd expect
to find a Bitcoin
core developer.
But like this is
this just shows
the power of the,
the network
where we're at everywhere,
you know,
and, yeah,
I visited Nigeria

(06:14):
when I was 18 and,
it was here in Lagos
and because my
dad worked there.
So I was there for a week,
which was a surreal week for,
an 18 year old, absolutely.
No.
So, so,
so how was growing
up in Nigeria and like, the

(06:35):
can you tell us
a bit about that?
And like,
how how did you find
Bitcoin in the first place?
I mean, this whole
the, the story
you told sort of
started at the,
the midpoint.
So, so, so give us,
give us the even longer
version if you, if you will.
Yeah for sure.
I mean, growing up in
Nigeria is pretty

(06:56):
much it makes,
I mean
the countless
200 other million stories
really from the country you
our population,
it's a mix of like,
I'll say this way
faster than the
brought back again.
And I had to choose
where I'd be born.
I still want to be born
in Nigeria again,
but to be Nigerian again,
I think it's it's
a weird mix.
Yes, a lot of
economic challenges
there, a lot of socio

(07:17):
economic challenges,
I should say.
And I think it's interesting.
So the culture, the people,
the food,
everything I think
is probably
one of the best in the world.
And at the same time,
when it comes
to the economic indices
and some of the social issues
that we do have
definitely runs
super low around the world.
So it's kind of a weird
mix between
the people
that have so much issues

(07:38):
and a lot of copying,
which results
in a lot of banter,
how we have, generally
speaking, backgrounds.
And there's also this,
I guess,
this energy about us
when it comes
to being on your feet
and trying to do things
for yourself,
because a lot of things
don't work.
So typically
a lot of people
are brought up.
Same thing in my case,
to kind of be
a bit more full of grit
and kind of ambition
because you're forced

(07:58):
into that circumstance.
So I see with Bitcoin,
it started in 2013, in terms
of hearing about it first,
and at that point I was 14.
It was from
some obscure video
my brother brought back
from YouTube.
I was like, oh, you know,
I've heard about this
Bitcoin thing.
For context, he's
an economics major
at that point
was pretty much
fully entrenched
as a gold bug.
So I guess
seeing things like,

(08:19):
you know, the Kaiser report
at that time
was probably
one of the reasons
why he got interested
into Bitcoin Krispy.
So watch the video.
Honestly,
I didn't know
what that was all about
for me.
I thought
it was like this math contest
because it was trying
to explain bitcoin
mining in the video
and all that.
Okay,
I mean,
you could get into this
competition and win coins,
whatever that means.
And then fast forward to

(08:39):
I guess
probably early 2017 or late
2016 was
when he came back again.
So at that point
he started working
for the government.
And the reason was because
after you finish, college
in Nigeria,
the idea is for you
to serve the country.
So you pretty much get posted
in some part of the country
where you do
either work
for the government
or some sort of agency.
The idea is to have
some sort of national pride

(09:00):
or interest in
the country itself.
So it's kind of requirements.
And what you have for,
other countries
that they do mandatory
military service
and ceremony to service.
We do social
service essentially.
So that happened.
And then
I think they're trying
to get the IBM DNA program,
which is basically this,
shit
coin in-house blockchain
that they built.
So as part of the
reading material,
they are told to,
you know,
take a look at Bitcoin

(09:20):
or some other things.
So he started talking to me
about Bitcoin.
I was like, again,
I know what this is
all about.
So we started
reading what I should see
around that time.
That's when everything
kind of flooding to
guess the entire narrative
I just painted in the
beginning of okay, what else?
Bitcoin specifically.
So a lot of
the articles are from,
I think, hatred.
And at that point,
a lot of medium posts,

(09:41):
a lot of Bitcoin magazine
as well.
A couple of other
other things really
that helped us
probably Twitter,
to be honest with you.
I think I learned
more about Bitcoin
from Twitter than
anything else.
I guess by some of the
reading I did
on the technical side
for what computers are like,
programing and things
like that.
But generally speaking,
all the insider stuff
from folks are on Twitter.

(10:03):
Yeah. Let's.
Cool.
Hacker, you mentioned hacker
noon there. That's, Yeah.
Funnily enough, that's
where I started.
Like I published my
that's the first thing
that, like, picked me up
and published
my articles like,
it's like a media
magazine, right.
But now it's it's
shit coin and stuff,
and then unfortunately.
Yeah,
like everything else
from that era

(10:24):
seems like everything
turned into shit
at some point,
especially media.
Yeah, yeah.
No, but,
I mean, super cool story
and I can relate to, like,
what I remember from Nigeria,
what I remember
what my dad stories
were like, like,
it's like these two worlds,
right?
Because, you,
as you say,
you have all the socio

(10:45):
economic problems and stuff
and you can
literally see people,
begging on the streets
and stuff.
But everyone's super
happy everywhere,
and everyone's
super nice and like,
they have these big Africa
smiles everywhere, you know,
and they feel very welcome.
And at the same time,
it's kind of chaotic.
Yeah.
So,
so,

(11:05):
let's get into
the rest of the story.
You were like, what?
What happened
then after
after your Bitcoin
Core contribution?
You you were discovered
by other Bitcoiners,
I guess, and your talent was,
is now utilized elsewhere.
So.
So give us the rest of
the story. What happens next?
Oh, yeah.
So in
2020 was when

(11:26):
I started doing
a lot more work around,
protocol development.
So specifically contributing
to doing PR reviews,
I think right about that
C times
when I met other Bitcoiners
because I retrenching myself
in Twitter, follow
pretty much
anyone that I thought
was involved with Bitcoin.
And at that point
my thinking was
I get into the space
as a pseudo
anonymous developer.
So at this whole cartoon,

(11:48):
a big character
that I was going around
with the.
So, I mean,
bunch of folks
that knew me from that era
probably remember
that graphic,
but that was the intention.
I clearly failed,
but definitely learned a lot.
So all I could be sued.
Anonymous
I definitely think
could be a lot more fruitful
that the attempt I had.
So I met up
with a
whole bunch of bitcoiners.
The primary ones were like
folks like Bernard

(12:08):
who's involved
with, this yours.
So you have been up.
And at that point
we were really
just exchanging
a whole bunch
of DMs on Twitter.
And funny enough,
I think a year or two
after we first
started speaking,
you mentioned that
he thought of us as,
oh, 30 year old programmer
that he was talking to
and he was
also simultaneously
talking to our older brother
at the time.
But I only figured that out

(12:29):
like the year
after we're talking.
So I guess at that point,
in terms of folks
knowing about me
was probably
as a result of Bernard,
I think he shot this,
I think this tweet,
when I turned 22,
I think
saying, you know, here's
this quote, developer
from Nigeria,
blah, blah, blah
and all that.
So I see in
terms of spotlighting,
I was probably that paired
with, you know,

(12:50):
I think when,
and the folks at Paxful
came to major as well.
So a lot of tourism
when I got Doxed, I guess.
So a lot of that happened.
And then I see subsequent,
subsequent to
that was getting involved
in the
to include study groups.
So at that point
I was post Covid,
so they canceled
all the in-person stuff.
So all they had was
a study group.
So I got into that one,

(13:11):
I think
I think 2021 or 2025
called for the lightning one
and then the Bitcoin
one afterwards.
So I met up
with a whole bunch of folks
that were involved
in the Bitcoin space.
Folks like the merge,
folks like
a bunch of folks
actually that are on that.
I think of it, even the folks
from the wallet as well.
So I that's kind of where
I got in transfer there.

(13:31):
And then I think 2022 onwards
after the hobby trust of
I got to meet or bitcoin
or especially folks
like Carla
and some of the others.
So I see
it was kind of
an interesting tale in terms
of talking to a few folks,
and then that
kind of bubbled up
into talking
with a lot of other folks,
and then Carla came along
and a whole bunch of stuff.
So it's kind of a mix of
further entrenching myself

(13:53):
as sort of a few
priorities initially.
So it
was kind of how it evolved.
All right.
And you're now the
CEO of B trust.
So what is B trust like,
can you give us
the Tldr on B trust
and what you do.
Oh yeah.
So I mean it
first started
as an initiative
by Jack really to propel

(14:13):
Bitcoin development in Africa
and India.
Because at the
time for context,
there are a lot of issues
with regards
to both regulation
as well as just ease of use.
And I think
adoption wise too,
we were still topping
charts put up
with continents, actually
continents or continent.
And the thinking for him
was for Bitcoin
to get to the speed
that it needs to be
in terms of resilience,
and all of that

(14:33):
will need to have
critical mass of developers
from parts of the world
that are using it
and mimic
that same sort
of anti fragility
that we're talking
about in terms
just people out
in the rugged regions.
Just for our listeners,
by Jack,
you mean Jack Dorsey,
of course.
Oh yeah.
Twitter clarify that.
Yeah.
It's and it evolved
into essentially
especially after

(14:54):
having the board
into a simple mission
which is
essentially decentralizing
Bitcoin development
in the Global South.
So specifically
regions in Africa
and yeah,
some of these other parts.
And during the make up
of the board,
having been heavily
Nigerian and heavily African,
I should say,
with all four board members,
including myself,
being from Africa
made sense for us
to start on the continent
that were privy to,

(15:15):
which is Africa,
and then gradually
expand beyond that.
So in terms of sourcing
mission, it's
definitely to
decentralize development
in regions
where they're not as common.
And now, so far
since we launched in 2021,
I think we now have,
long term developers
that were supporting
my coworkers.
It has been super incredible.
Bitcoin core working
on Mempool stash,
even stuff on mining,

(15:35):
as well as Novo,
who's also working on Bitcoin
Core, specifically
silent payments.
We also have another long
term developer who's,
female are the only one
truly on the continent,
is also working
on the Lightning Network.
We also have,
to bet
resources on BitPay server.
I also have another,
another person
was on the started groundwork
team on, I think, polar,

(15:56):
as well as another one
who's Duncan
working on
the Lightning
Network as well.
So we have roughly around
six folks
that are currently
full time grants.
So since then, it's
definitely evolved
from just a basic idea
that there are
these developers
that we can support
on the continent
and other parts
to supporting
a lot of these developers,
making them,
you know,
the first class of developers
coming out of this continent
that have jobs fully

(16:18):
working on Bitcoin,
specifically open source,
because I should clarify it
in terms of support.
Be just isn't,
built to support ventures?
All we're doing is
essentially
centralized development
specifically for Bitcoin,
specifically open source.
So that's
where the core of our,
activities are.
So in 2023
is when we took over
the gala program,
kind of just made it
an internal pipeline

(16:38):
for ourselves
just to make sure
everything streamlined.
So started doing a lot more,
capacity building.
So since then, to date,
I think we've changed
probably close to
goes to 500 folks in terms
of being involved,
some part of the other,
whether it's
mustering Bitcoin
all the way
up to the residents who are,
I guess, the
fellowship that we call it,
which is three months
intensive all the way up
to getting a grant.
So right now
we're set up to

(16:58):
do three things.
So one is supporting
developer education programs.
So we have one
internal called B
Trust Builders
which was previously caller.
And then we also support
other initiatives
like Big Shala in India
as well as the brightest
Satoshi in Latin America.
We also do conference
okay sponsorships.
So sponsor
the Africa Bitcoin Conference
for example size
conf as well.
Even adopting Bitcoin
in Cape Town last year.

(17:20):
And the last type of grants
that we do is three fold.
I should say two fold.
One is the startup grants.
The idea was that
it was born
out of the long term grants
that we did,
because our thinking was,
if we're still
early in the stage,
we are going to have
a lot of people
that are working
long term on Bitcoin
that have that
type of track record.
So the idea is to have
this kind of discovery grant
where they have
three months,

(17:40):
actually six months,
essentially where they
kind of look for a niche
within Bitcoin Core
or some other project
related to Bitcoin,
and then they
gradually get into long
term grants.
So we had folks like abacus
might as well
start
with that novel as well.
So I say like half
or probably over 60
or 70% of the people
creative long term grant
started from that pipeline.
And we also have
the long term grants,

(18:00):
which start from a year
and then could be renewed for
two years plus.
So those three are kind
of the main engine
behind for trust.
And in terms
of moving forward
2025, it's a lot of,
I guess, streamlining
that process
with subcommittees
similar to how open science
evaluates, proposals.
That way
it's not subject
to the discretion
of the board
or potentially
some sort of foul play.
So a lot of a lot of work

(18:21):
around that,
a lot of work around
open source, specifically
drilling into
having a very
effective pipeline
or filter for that.
So that's why we decided
to also do the POS program,
which is initiative
started by chain.
Couldn't
a whole bunch of other folks
who trying to refine
the whole process.
Later in the year,
we're going to do
our own program, our own
our own program, as well
as part of the court five.
So this one's currently code

(18:41):
four is going to
start on Monday.
And the idea is simple,
like get a whole
bunch of folks
interested in Bitcoin,
help them navigate the space.
So we just essentially now
set up
as both the starting point
and the destination
for developers,
specifically in Africa
and all these other regions
that we serve.
Yeah. Cool.
You mentioned Bit Chalet
in India.
They, by

(19:02):
the way, are doing a,
a thorough read of, of,
Bitcoin, the inverse
of cloud World book.
So, so I'm enjoying
hopping in and listening
to that every now and then.
It's wonderful to hear it
read out
and explained
in in an Indian accent.
It's one in Ireland
that, that
that is all on YouTube.

(19:22):
And like,
I'll,
I'll do a big post about it
when, whenever
the series is done.
But they're doing it
once a week.
So that's a great project.
So, so yeah.
Bitcoin in Africa in general
and in Nigeria specifically.
Like, what what
let's start somewhere like

(19:43):
how is adoption in Nigeria?
The things I've heard from
Nigeria is like
every other year
they ban it
and every other year they
they embrace it.
And this goes back and forth.
Right.
And like it's
very schizophrenic.
So what's going on there.
You know a lot.
And I
say for
context, the first ban
or I should say quasi
ban was in, I believe, 2021

(20:04):
or early 2022.
And the idea was, again,
more context.
Bitcoin was introduced
into the continent,
specifically in Africa,
specifically in Nigeria,
as kind of a
part of,
I guess,
an ecosystem of scams
that came in.
So a lot of people
had these multi marketing
level multi-level
marketing schemes

(20:24):
and things like that
that pretend
like they're buying Bitcoin
for people were,
whereas they
weren't in reality.
So a lot of people
really had an introduction
to Bitcoin.
And again,
to fight
in the sense that they felt
this was just a scam.
And obviously there is the
I guess the
the existing paradigm
of scamming and
and being that being a means
for folks,

(20:45):
typically folks
around my age.
So there was that perception
that it's either
for criminals or
these young kids
trying to make a quick buck
or just scammers out. Right?
Yeah.
All about Nigerian
royal royalty, right.
Prince exotic. Yeah.
So that's, you know,
one of the tools
for the royal class
you could see of
scammers here.
So I guess the thinking

(21:06):
from the central
Bank of Nigeria
and some of the regulators
here at the apex, regulators
I should say, has been
one of cautious,
cautious like hesitation
to kind of get involved,
especially in that
at that point
in time in 2021.
So the idea for them
was just have a blanket ban,
the same thing
where every
other part of the world's
pretty much hide.
So what they did

(21:26):
was essentially stop
all these crypto companies
at that point
directly tying
banned transactions
to Bitcoin
or generally crypto.
So that was the first quasi
binary.
There wasn't necessarily
an outright ban ever
in dangerous history.
A couple of other countries
somebody
and from that point on to
2023 was
kind of
an interesting period for us.

(21:47):
So we went from
people essentially using
all these
centralized exchanges
to realizing
they can't
necessarily do that
effectively now.
So everyone was
Christian to P2P
and I mean, like
really, right, P2P
all the way from in-person
to shitty WhatsApp groups
to telegram group.
So we kind of built in
the two years
since that whole quasi ban,
like a very, very strong

(22:07):
P2P network of liquidity,
really for Bitcoin,
which is why we tend to rank
pretty high
when it comes to either
P2P or just adoption
in general,
because a lot of people
are facing
lot of economic challenges.
Nigeria, where we have
double digit
inflation, food crisis
that we had previously,
I think two years now.
So of the
the election that happened
two years ago, two,
which is insane
in terms of the

(22:28):
the shortages on cash
because they're moving
to different nodes
to soak up the amount of,
money that's outside of banks
so that regulation
could be effective.
So they reversed the ban
in 2023 or 2023.
But at that point, really
Bitcoin was already a
common staple.
So went from
being super scammy
to people actually organized
that it has used outside
of just being

(22:49):
kind of a scam coin
or some sort of a
criminal money, really.
So started realizing
that they could use it
for savings from intensives.
All of that,
and then used it
came into the mix too.
So they have like,
pretty much
stable Swiss
Army knife in terms
of how they navigate
monetary
at the monetary
milieu generally
and being being
able to participate
both at the local level
as well, like a global level.

(23:09):
So definitely,
if you ask me, I feel like,
the regulators
are the reason
why Bitcoin
is so big in Nigeria
because
it was so desperate to
and have blanket bans early
on, which
I mean the consequences
are very difficult
to determine
from their point of view.
So I definitely understand
that it would have
been difficult
to foresee that there enabled
this whole push of P2P
all the way up to,

(23:30):
you know,
for their economic crises
as a result
of a whole bunch of stuff
like borrowing from the IMF.
So as in now
in the state of Bitcoin
in Nigeria specifically,
it's two fold, like
it's very, very high.
But it's on to the stage
where people think
in terms of
you could walk into a shop
and pay with Bitcoin,
it's mostly
to do
with actual individuals.
So I see the individual
adoption is very high
and not like a

(23:50):
national adoption.
That's happening
in like other countries,
like software,
all those, whereas
like really nationally
recognized on that level.
And what about mining?
Are there any mining projects
in Nigeria
like how is that going?
Okay, it's interesting too.
So starting from
really early on,
a lot of hobbyist
mining in Nigeria.
So we're talking
sub one megawatts,

(24:11):
like really rugged
mining operations
where you just walk
into a house and start
hearing a whole
bunch of noise,
and then
walking to this room,
you see a whole bunch of S19
working out.
So at this point
is a lot more structured.
I say,
due to a lot of the clarity
that we have in terms of
other parts of Africa
as being Bitcoin mining
like Ethiopia, Kenya
and some other parts,

(24:31):
I think a lot
more people are understanding
in terms of the value,
the benefit,
as well as how
to actually practically do it
well without blowing
circuits in
and causing fires,
which a whole bunch of
early folks
had to go through.
And right now
we're seeing a huge
uptake in terms of organized
mining operations in Nigeria,
despite the fact
that there isn't
necessarily clear
regulation
in terms of an okay or a

(24:52):
not really
from the regulator.
So so
we're still in that like
shadowy area
in terms of operation.
But there's a lot
to do with hydro
as well as flared gas,
because as you said,
guys down
south and Niger has pretty
much ranked
top five,
I think customers
in the world.
So makes a lot of sense
for people
to engage through that.
So it's actually growing,
I think.

(25:12):
I think we're behind
in terms of adoption
for Bitcoin mining
compared to Kenya
or Ethiopia.
I mean, Ethiopia alone
right now.
I think
the last time I checked,
the numbers
are probably around like 25%
global hash rate,
which is insane.
It grew from
like pretty much 0.5
or 0.25 a year
earlier
in 2023,
all the way up to 2.5 when,
just for context,

(25:33):
like the whole of Africa
is roughly around three point
something percent hash rate.
So you can see
just a single country
gobbling
so much of the hash rate.
So I think probably
by the end of 2025,
that number
generally for Africa
will probably reach
above 5%
as a result
of expanded operations
both in Ethiopia, Kenya
as well as some
parts of Nigeria.

(25:54):
Yeah, yeah.
So that I think the whole
mining picture in general
is an interesting one, like,
what you mentioned with
kind of the comparisons
to, to other countries,
and, well,
I guess
we should say the, the,
our last meeting
was at the nice
conference in Slovenia,

(26:15):
and we did a panel
together on,
I guess, the,
the future trends
in, in mining.
And I think your,
your expertise on the,
on the local
market in Africa was a good,
a good chunk
of what we talked about.
But, I guess
do you see this
trend continuing that
that mining
is going to be
really targeting these
these areas

(26:36):
that, are currently
sort of say,
underserved
in terms of electrical grids
and things like this, like,
is mining the
the narrative around
it is
seems to
be very positive in Africa
right now.
Is that, really the case?
Oh, I hundred percent
and I think it's

(26:57):
forced regulators
into a very interesting spot.
So think of it this way.
We already had,
especially in Nigeria,
the whole evolution of people
flipping the paradigm
on Bitcoin
from seeing a super volatile,
super stable to Bitcoin
being a lot less volatile
than the national currency,
I mean, increased
the economic crisis
and all of that.
So we went through
that whole shift

(27:17):
in just Bitcoin being a money
that actually does work.
Regulators already
have that context
to work with.
And then Bitcoin mining was,
I think,
the first time
that a lot of
people understood
that Bitcoin is a technology.
And not just a money, as
people are seeing it as like
funny internet money,
because now they're seeing
that there are practical
socio economic consequences
and benefits
of Bitcoin mining

(27:37):
specifically to do
with electrification,
which has been a huge issue
in Africa.
Like,
do we have been
approaching this
on a national level?
Variety of countries has been
heavily borrowing,
getting folks to get involved
with energy production.
And then the problem is folks
feel it's
too risky to get involved
a lot of these regions,
and then
there's no one
to take on this,
this energy
that's been produced.
So typically
you just shut off.

(27:58):
Don't don't begin
about these projects
and other leading with that.
So with Bitcoin mining,
these are realizing that
this mechanism
of bootstrapping
energy production
by having a buyer
first
demand has solved
all the issues that we've had
for decades
in terms of electrification.
So for the first time,
they've been put in
a position
where they'll
have to confront
Bitcoin mining
more head
on, a more one maturely

(28:19):
than previously in terms
of just outrageous,
hand-waving in terms of it
just being money and a scam.
So I think we're going
to see a lot more,
especially now
with Ethiopian Kenya.
I think they've been super,
super great
in terms of pioneering
the space, both in terms
of on the regulatory front,
but also on
the strategic level in terms
of ramping up
energy production
and really showing people

(28:39):
that you could actually
usefully manage
green projects
through Bitcoin mining
and to connect electrify
rural communities.
Then honestly, in a point
where you have
access revenues
for these communities,
which can
then be used to build out
further
the grids that are pretty,
pretty disparate in terms of,
their maturity
as well as
the level of handling
the load to distribute

(29:00):
to other parts
that don't have electricity.
So it's this
whole flywheel
that's being created,
another person
place in Mangere
and other places
that are not as advanced
in terms of Bitcoin
mining are starting
to see that
as like a template
to Bitcoin to
especially the bitcoin
miners.
You're trying to do the work.
So I think we'll see
in 2025 to 2026
will be a lot more
regulatory clarity
or at least

(29:20):
some regulation,
whether good or bad, come out
as a result of
Bitcoin mining.
And you'll likely see
a lot more countries
being involved
with bitcoin mining,
not just for electrification,
but likely for,
I guess,
national treasury management,
really, where they're holding
Bitcoin as one
possibly doing their
servicing down
the line as well.
I've heard
a few conversations
without mentioning
specific countries
where some of the regulators

(29:40):
are starting
to look at that,
especially on the central
bank level,
as a result of the work
from the Bitcoin Policy
Institute around that.
So that mean
a lot is going to happen.
And I think Bitcoin mining
is probably
the biggest catalyst
for why
governments are starting
to take become more seriously
on the continent. Mr..
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(30:01):
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I, I'm
not sure that people outside
of the mining industry
really understand
how important it is

(31:05):
for as a driver for,
for Bitcoin generally.
And I mean, I think there's a
there's a perception that,
bitcoin as used by users,
maybe, maybe not necessarily
even the ones
who are running
their own node
and have full self-custody,
but just,
you know, use the

(31:25):
Lightning Network somehow.
Maybe they don't really
see what,
what the impact of mining
is on on what they're doing
and the reasons
why it's important.
But it's interesting.
It's interesting
that you say that,
that there's an impact
even towards the,
the regulatory angle.
And,

(31:46):
I guess I guess I'm curious,
what do you think in general,
the trend is going to be over
these next few years
in terms of,
in terms
of regulation, because,
as you were saying
that, that these trend of,
of strategic
Bitcoin reserves
of, of friendly
or unfriendly regulation,
but in, in the bull

(32:08):
market
that is still theoretically
just getting started.
Number go up
is going to do its thing.
And, and so it's it's
a really unclear time
over the next
couple of years.
What do you think
is is going to happen
as, as numbers go up
does its thing
and, and regulators start to
take more interest generally.

(32:29):
And it's it's hard
to it's hard to tell.
I just off the bat
like a lot of
these prognostications
that we could do
or we have done,
especially on
the gun has been
thought out
wrong for
a variety of reasons.
But most of the time
it's been
wrong for the right reasons.
So specifically,
a lot of us early on
didn't think this far along,
and a lot of the thinking
that we had
was probably like
a ten year trajectory

(32:49):
to get to where
we are currently.
So I say
Africa is one of those parts
where
just the sheer lack of a
lot of these infrastructure
really, that is needed
or is seen is,
I guess available
in other parts of the world
that are quote unquote
more developed
is probably
the biggest opportunity
and the biggest reason
why it happened so fast
in the way it does,

(33:10):
like think of it
this way,
in the last two years,
we've gone
from roughly less than 0%
to around like 0.1%
in terms of mining hashrate,
all the way up to three point
something percent.
So I think in terms of the
the adoption,
I think
even looking back
five years ago, where
and it wasn't really actually
that high
all the way up
to where it is right now

(33:30):
in terms of what's
leading adoption,
Africa leading
mining in terms
of green energy,
the green energy revolutions.
And then lastly,
just looking at
even the developer base
in Africa
has gone from there's
no such thing
as when we first started
getting more open spaces,
like an African
Bitcoin ecosystem
or an African
bitcoin development
ecosystem,
all the way up to

(33:51):
having developers
come from
this part of the world,
I think in the next two,
three, possibly five years,
we're likely going to see
like three things.
One is
a lot more
regulatory clarity,
and I think
we have the opportunity
to do two things.
One is, as Bitcoiners
approach regulators
in a more sensible way
than previous
have been doing in terms of
just being completely

(34:12):
antagonistic or
hand-waving, because,
yeah, a lot of us
that are more savvy
with Bitcoin
will still have access
to Bitcoin internally
under the same keys.
For people
that really understand
Bitcoin
and can can use it
and can self-custody,
but the vast
majority of people,
they'll likely be hindered
by a lot of these rails
being stopped
from government address
any kind of regulation.
So it is incumbent on us to

(34:33):
fully understand
exactly what's going on,
or at least are
fully involved for it
so long, to
kind of approach it
more holistically, to ensure
that there are a lot
of protections specific
to making sure
that self-custody
is not in jeopardy,
making sure that people
still have a proper bridge
that's necessarily on 24/7.
The same with Bitcoin
is tied to get involved with
some of these risky parts
of Self-custody
all the way up to,

(34:55):
some of these
risky parts of,
custodians,
not self-custody.
So I'd say that would be one,
one way to approach it.
I think the second way
is from
the regulatory standpoint,
because we don't have
as much regulatory baggage.
I say really
most of our regulations
pretty much translate
to regulation
from other
parts of the world.
I think we have
the opportunity
to craft novel regulation

(35:15):
in the sense
that it would be devoid of
some of the issues
that we're seeing
from other regulators
around the world,
whether it's the mica
regulation in Europe
or some of the other parts,
and in North America
with know our cliffs
and things like that.
I think for us it would be
we have the opportunity
to say, no, there would be,
but we have the opportunity
to really define
regulation from,
first principles standpoint,

(35:36):
where we're looking at
what is the benefit
on a national level,
what is the benefit
on a strategic level
for us,
economically speaking?
And how can we use this
to achieve better
the economic standpoint
or the outlook
for a lot of these countries?
And I think the other two
things I should see is
we're still
going to be
and this is my
personal guess.
And my full conviction
really, is that
Africa will be leading

(35:57):
Bitcoin development, too.
And I think that would have
huge, probably
even bigger implications
than Bitcoin mining
when we think of it
both from a
strategic standpoint
for the continent in terms
of making sure
that they can replicate
the same level of resiliency
that require
for us
to become a prosperous
and abundant nature, nation,
but also from
from a practical standpoint,
like the more
folks are building
from this part of the world,

(36:18):
the more
these tools and services
will be fit for working
exceptionally well
in the continent.
So I think
things around Bitcoin mining
and obviously the debate
with regards to
decentralizing Bitcoin
mining in general likely
be a consequence of the
the large hoards
of Bitcoin developers
will come out of this
part of the world
where we'll likely be
only just leading,
but probably
dictating exactly
what it looks like

(36:38):
to have a Bitcoin
nation, quote unquote,
as Bitcoin mining.
Then obviously
the third party
should be commenting.
I think
energy is one of those things
that transcends
all sort of,
I guess, cultural baggage
or orthodoxies
that people typically have
that are
antagonistic to Bitcoin
are generally
aren't as receptive
to Bitcoin initially because
it's very easy

(36:59):
to connect with Bitcoin.
I think this is
currency for criminals
but is very difficult
to deny.
Electrification
for rural areas,
or it's very difficult
to deny a huge uptick in
the sheer amount of a leg
that electricity
in terms of access for people
that previously didn't
have that.
So I think, again,
because the practical
realities of Bitcoin mining
and just how quickly it is,

(37:20):
you can start from zero
all the way up
to having critical mass
of electrification
around the world
or just around the continent,
probably going to be
another huge traverse.
I'd say Bitcoin
mining the short term
and then long term,
I think Bitcoin development
will outpace it in
terms of impact.
Yeah.
And I mean
there are
so many things
that tie into this and,
and Africa

(37:40):
is such
an interesting continent,
from so many
economic perspectives.
I mean,
it's most people
here in Europe
aren't aware of how much,
the banks
and central banks
of, of the Western world
have been screwing
you guys over,
through the IMF and stuff
and the
monetary apartheid
that goes on,
which is basically

(38:01):
just vulgar.
It's just
like, in
a very sneaky way,
stripped African countries
of the resources
and grabbing them
for ourselves.
And like Bitcoin
is a true chance at,
getting out of that.
So so
my question
here would be like
how aware are
are the people you talk to?
Like how aware are
people in general of of

(38:23):
that they
are being screwed over
by the monetary systems?
I mean,
from a Nigerian perspective,
but perhaps also
from a more general
African perspective.
What what do you see?
I think generally
a lot of people are
more self-aware
about how wealth
I place in the world
as a result of a lot of
issues with the crisis,
especially in Nigeria.

(38:43):
Yes, being an
engine is itself
kind of a huge liability
if you're trying to interact
with the rest of the world.
I mean, all the way from
actual travel visas
all the way up
to a bank account,
starting businesses,
all that kind of stuff.
So I think a lot of people
already are aware, like,
it doesn't take
too long as a manager
to know that
you're a Nigerian
and the
consequences of that,

(39:04):
I think more so
on the economic side.
We're definitely fully aware
of where we are
in terms of having
extractive policies,
and it's kind of twofold like
it's definitely
one of those things
where it's,
it's a mutual symbiosis
in my opinion.
A lot of people
are aware of that.
So one side
is obviously folks coming in
to extract
all the opportunity
and then turn around
and say the,

(39:26):
the nation is kind of poor
and destitute, which
it's akin
to having rich people
always going to a dumpster
to pretty much increase
their wealth.
Like it makes no sense.
So there's definitely
no truth to
to the whole
it being a poor continent,
because
you wouldn't necessarily
be extracting
well from a poor continent.
And I think the other
the other part
I should mention that
a lot of people are aware of

(39:47):
is that
which is why is mutual.
My opinion
is a lot of the folks
on the ground
that already see
this chaos that we've created
over the
last couple of decades,
I see,
because of a century ish, is
because there's
so many things
that are not working
well on the continent,
all the way from governance
to economics.
A lot of people have

(40:08):
gone into
what I would see is like the
rent seeking
class, which is
pretty much a class of folks
in Africa
who use Africa
as a general banner
to masquerade,
as trying to help
the continent,
but really,
how they're doing
is using Africa as this,
marketing campaign
for them to either
reach some sales
personally or get get into,

(40:29):
I guess
all the other rooms
and places
where, folks make decisions
about where
they're extracting
resources from Africa.
So this is mutual
in the sense
that both from
the outside, there's
this obvious
opportunity to you
Africans potential
where it's
been completely extracted.
But internally,
there are a lot of folks that
I shouldn't say really a lot,
but they're folks
that are in places
where they could do

(40:49):
a lot more damage
than just
a critical mass
of like people
that do indulge themselves
in this as well, in terms of
just trying to make a quick
buck off of their own
continent as well.
So that is a mix of the two,
which is why
it's very complex
in terms of rooting out
corruption fully
and over the years,
I've come to realize that
corruption isn't necessarily
the biggest issue in Africa
is really

(41:09):
that the whole renting class
and the
class of entitled folks
also on the continent
and just a class of folks
that feel
the status
quo is good enough
for them, given
the fact that they continue
to enrich themselves.
I pretty much don't care
about the next generation.
I think that's a bigger issue
than corruption, because
corruption is a general
problem for all countries.
So does it make sense for it
to be zoned in

(41:30):
as one of the reasons
why we're not
where we're supposed to be?
Because other parts
are also
corrupt, undeveloped.
So I don't think there's
that main issue
that a lot of people
hamper on on the continent.
But essentially my $0.02
when it comes
to that conversation,
I mean,
from a certain, angle
that is corruption, right?
But like using
state resources
for your own, like,
like there's

(41:50):
no way to, to use,
you know,
the money
gained from theft as,
as for anything
without really
being corrupt,
like, at some level.
Like, where do you draw
the line?
There's always,
I always struggle with his
questions, like,
if it's tax funded, isn't

(42:12):
it corrupt
by its very nature?
I mean, there's.
Yeah, long in the Congo.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, think of it
this way.
Like it'd be told
if we did have
the institutions
of governance that worked
well in terms of
succession plans with regards
to actually being
a proper democracy.
I think a lot of the issues
will be

(42:32):
not as difficult
as they actually are
in terms of just the sheer
mix of convolution
on the continent.
So that's what I mean.
Typically,
when I say corruption
isn't the only thing,
because if we had
strong institutions,
a lot of the corruption
would naturally be weeded out
by the fact
that there is structure.
The lack of structure is why
there is this man
to show corruption going on.
Yeah.
I saw a

(42:53):
documentary about my diarrhea
once where they had to.
They were interviewing
the minister,
who was, tasked with,
dealing with the corruption.
And they had to bribe
his guards to get in,
get the building
into the interview, and then.
Father.
But, you know, that is.
Yeah.
Money works in this area
and a lot of parts in Africa.

(43:13):
So it's
not always
for the right reasons.
Now,
oral questions.
Luke, do you have any.
Yeah.
No, just a,
ticket to continue
on, on this thread
a little bit like,
I think a narrative
that's big in,
say more North American.

(43:35):
Western Bitcoin circles
or even just
the Twittersphere
generally is this
trend towards
an article capitalism,
in other words,
basically the exact
opposite of what you're
what you're
talking about that
that,
having strong institutions
as, as the counter
to corruption on,
on when I say
cultural level,
I don't mean this
in like the, the sense of,

(43:56):
that that
any one part of the world
is particularly
prone to this.
I mean, I mean, just,
I mean, just that
in a certain place,
there's a, a culture
of strong institutions like,
traditional,
strong institutions
as part of the better way
to say it.
And so
and so the,
the sort of the anarcho
capitalist,
ultra libertarian perspective
where the end goal is
everyone adopts Bitcoin

(44:17):
and all the
governments go away.
How do you see
that in practice? Maybe.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're already laughing.
So what are your
thoughts on this?
I mean,
I'd like
from a
philosophical standpoint,
I do
I do kind of sympathize
with the general
I cook up to this mindset or
I guess the

(44:38):
what is now the orthodoxy,
which is from the heterodoxy
generally that Bitcoin
was breath out of.
I think I totally get it.
I get the understanding
and I feel
free to have
a prosperous society.
Definitely have to have that
that level of,
free will
that's needed by the state
to the people
for it to be prosperous.
But at the same time,
I, I do recognize the,

(44:59):
the use of purpose of a state
in terms
of just keeping the quality,
keeping folks in check
and all those kind of things.
So I think what the guys of
the world like Africa, it's
naturally because of some of
the cultures
that we have in terms
of being community driven and
and being a lot more,
less about the individual

(45:19):
as it is
in Western parts
of the world.
The more about the community,
I think where you have
those sure
set of values as like a,
I should say a springboard
in which we can architect
a society
that's a lot more equitable
than typically
what we have right now.
I'm just providing
sure opportunity
then I don't mean equity
in the sense
of like bringing others
down to bring them
to the same level
of other people,
or just like forcing people

(45:40):
in the past
that either
they don't fit or belong to,
but I mean,
allowing for opportunities
for people
to navigate themselves
and choose
pathways in particular,
or then they
kinda are right now.
So I see a good mix of having
currently the cultural,
I guess, heritage
that we have
as a, as a continent
is going to be a lot more
is going to be the reason why

(46:00):
building these institutions
will be a lot
more fruitful of an endeavor
than is kind of
seeing other Western parts
where it's like this,
I guess this quagmire
where the state
is fully serving
its own interest versus
the interest of the people.
So I think that
there's definitely
a lot of middle ground
that we could
architect really
from the ground up
in a lot
of African countries.
And one thing I would say is
it doesn't take as much time

(46:21):
as to think like there is
this idea
that people have in general
where it's like for a state
to be devoid of corruption
or for a state
to be prosperous, it's
going to take like
a whole century
or something like that.
But we have such sheer
chaos,
like the sum of the benefits
of a complex dynamic system.
Such one is
that the sheer
complexity is wired,

(46:42):
unable to predict
the duration
or the requirement
in terms of time
that things can get better
or could get even worse.
I think it's it's
it's a double edged sword,
like because of how complex
it is on the continent.
Like things can go really bad
really quickly
and can also go really good.
Right.
So I think I'm
a lot of optimism
in terms of
having a lot
more prosperous countries

(47:02):
come out of Africa and
honestly get to the point
where they'll likely be
because of hope
for other parts of the world.
I know
that sounds like
wishful thinking
for a lot of folks to see,
but I generally believe
in this fully
and wholeheartedly,
and I
feel one of the reasons why
this is going to be
a practical reality.
The city wants
in the last 50, 60 years
from continent
was pretty much
a whole bunch of promises
or buncha
promising figures

(47:23):
that have been killed.
So lots of other reasons.
I think Bitcoin
does play a huge part
because of two things like
figuring out energy
and money is probably
one of the
the core pieces
for architecting
any sort
of prosperous nation.
So I feel having this tool
now does
give us an opportunity
to leapfrog
a lot of the barriers
that we previously had

(47:43):
and get to the point
where we're
not only just prosperous,
but we're living
well in terms
of what
it should be,
in terms of prosperity,
down in like 2050s
all the way up to
the 2100 onward.
Yeah.
And, you know, I,
I,
I've been seeing
this as a trend
even in mainstream
media about
how about how
Africa is really set to boom,

(48:04):
basically.
And, and
I mean,
it's it's interesting
how Bitcoin
is dovetailing with that,
but in a different way
than necessarily
we see in in countries
that don't necessarily
have the same set of needs.
I mean,
there
being, a lot of great,
well,
books and podcasts and stuff
talking about

(48:25):
basically the, the,
the different
set of needs that,
that Bitcoin is fulfilling,
in Africa
and other parts of the world
that are poorer
than, than America,
than other Western countries.
And,
how do you think
how do you think this is,
is playing out
with the
the price increasing

(48:45):
so much of, of Bitcoin,
there's there's definitely
been some in the space
that have
actually moved away from,
from Bitcoin itself into shit
coins or,
or abandoned
crypto altogether basically.
Because because of
that basically that,
that it's not,
it's not really useful

(49:06):
for people.
It, it's not usable
as a medium of exchange.
So what do you think of that
narrative in it?
Is there,
is there any truth
to to what they're saying?
From the perspective of, of
Africa versus
the Western world?
Yeah.
So I think

(49:26):
there are a lot of things
that play
like one
is on the demographics.
And that's one of the reason
why I'm also super
bullish on the continent is
we're just such
a young continent,
even as now,
like we're talking
practically like coffee.
Over 60% of the population
is between 18 and 25.
So on my age
range and it's
only going to get better
really for us
in the future
to the point
where, like you touched
like 70, 80% continent,

(49:48):
being in that age
range, the average age in
some countries is on a slope
like 14, 16.
So we have a lot of potential
in terms
of just human capital.
I think there's nothing a lot
to say
about what the consequences
of that are, both good
and bad
in terms of either
be hyper productive,
were completely
fluffed chaos.
I think in terms of the
coin angle,
like the one thing

(50:08):
I should say with Africa
is again, back to the same,
back to the
previous
day, we're talking about
in terms of
just the continent and the
promise versus
the actualization
of that promises.
A lot of people,
both in and outside, are
and have been used
to this narrative of Africa
being this dusty continent
that could just
constantly be used
as, campaigning to

(50:29):
or at least a mechanism
for internal fundraising
and aid and things like that.
And I think one of the things
that really wasn't
something that was too happy
about into the crypto space
is it also leaned into that
where we had a lot of things
all the way
from seeing Bitcoin
as not useful
because it's on an
African currency,
unless that is something
that's external,

(50:49):
and then having
projects come out
that were just outright
scamming people
and pretending
to be Africa's coinage,
what the hell does that even
mean?
And two was also the
the issue that we have,
which is is very easy
to come into the continent
and pretend
like you're doing work
like all you have to do
pretty much
which a lot of people
have been doing,
both internally,
the diaspora
and outside has been,
you know, just coming
in, taking a photo

(51:10):
with a whole bunch of kids,
smiling and tweeting,
you know,
you've done
like a million people
now using coin X.
And the thing is like, true,
true change
doesn't require you
to make noise about to like
if you actually make
an impact in life
to go and publicize it.
That's the one thing
that a lot of people
are starting to realize
with Bitcoin.
Like

(51:30):
the lack of a creator
that's there
to dictate the future
and trajectory of Bitcoin
is one of the reasons
why it could be,
really internalized
by other parts of the world,
like Africa's RSA as well,
because it's large enough
and it's big enough
and it's deep enough
in terms of the shift
that is bringing to humanity
that all parts of the world
can collaboratively lean
into these
be set of principles

(51:51):
that could be the foundation
for a prosperous nation.
So I think for Africa,
like the
the main thing
I've seen from the crypto
side has been leaning into
eternal talk about Africa's
potential without necessarily
practically dipping
into making that a reality,
whereas Bitcoin
is a complete opposite.
Like it's literally though
it's started

(52:12):
and is I guess,
birthed within the,
the standpoint of actually
getting into actualizing
all the potential of African
then taking that to
really stuff
where a lot of us
on the ground,
even Bitcoiners
have thought of,
like Bitcoin
mining all of that
really early on wasn't
something at the
top of funnel
that were thinking about
that caused
this type of change.
And I think
more broadly in terms
of how people see

(52:32):
price action, it's
the way
I personally see
price action,
as is kind of this.
It's there's no ceiling
for how you can value,
financial freedom
or how you could value
really energy
up on that side.
And I think the price
is just a reflection
of the contemporary,
I guess price
that people put onto that.

(52:52):
So it's only
going to keep bubbling up
and I think
one other thing really,
to take a look at it,
I guess this is more on
the empirical side is Bitcoin
crashes upwards.
So there's a popular
saying on Bitcoin space.
But that really is the keys
duplicate historical
price analysis.
And I think it's just part
and parcel of again
further discovery
as a result
of the consequence
of having Bitcoin

(53:13):
as a tool that is global.
Again,
because localized and really
just a coin
for a specific part
of the world,
it wouldn't
necessarily reach the type of
degree of,
I guess, both adoption
as well as use
cases on the ground.
But it has to like Africa,
I think. Again,
just to recap, like the sheer
abundance of young folks
on the continent
likely to be a huge catalyst
in terms of advancing us

(53:33):
in the right direction
or probably going
the other direction
if we're not proactive.
And again, just to close on
this really is
I think
I'm not part
of the crowd of bitcoiners
that feel like we've won,
quote unquote,
or like, you know,
it's the happy being poor
and all that.
I feel
Bitcoin has to keep winning.
Like there's no
concept of Bitcoin has won
because by virtue

(53:54):
of being software,
there's no such thing
as like a final end state.
There's only a
state of either
working or being deprecated.
So I firmly believe for us
to actually get these things
practically done
on the continent
in terms of prosperity,
I'll have to continue
to play our part
really actively to make sure
that we're
not only defending attacks,
but we're
also structuring
a very healthy ecosystem
from within.

(54:15):
Yeah.
So one thing,
I'm thinking of here, like,
as with Africa
or Nigeria specifically,
perhaps,
as opposed to
to Western countries
in terms of culture
and how you view the family.
It's like the
the African families
are much bigger.
There's like clans
and stuff like,
and groups

(54:36):
of like 200 people
where your loyalty may lie.
Whereas in Western countries
you're more focused on like
maybe up to
grandfathers
and grandmothers,
but not very much
more than that.
So, so by the way, are you
you have what they call
Yoruba or Igbo.
Oh, I'm, I'm Fulani actually.
So I'm like one, two.

(54:57):
Oh right. So I got it wrong.
Anyway, so, so,
so how do you think
that, like, impacts
Bitcoin adoption.
Is there like things
like fiddy for instance.
Seems like seem like,
absolutely tailor
made for that kind of culture
and, like,
how much has that got to do
with the

(55:18):
corrupt, corrupt ness
and like,
people's
loyalties here
and there and, building
strong institutions
and stuff.
What are your thoughts?
I mean, like
capitalism as a whole has
really flipped the,
I guess the loyalty
question into,
you know, people
being loyal to capital
or just money in general.
I think there's that angle.

(55:38):
There's also the uncle
like you mentioned of,
he's like,
I mean, I'm
from a family of five.
It's off included.
And it's
typically commonplace
in a lot of power,
especially up
here in the north
of large families.
I think the
there are a lot of things
at play, like
there is definitely
the cultural dynamic in terms
of having
like families
or having a sense of, again,
like I said,

(55:58):
shared community.
And it kind of varies
all across the continent
as you look from like urban
to rural as well.
And I think some of the
other factors
that do play into,
I guess determining
some of the consequences
for us as a continent is
there's so many,
first of all, languages.
So even the idea
of expressing myself
on the continent, it's such a

(56:18):
it's not as straightforward
as it is in continents
where it's like predominantly
single language.
And I think
within the language aspect,
there is also the trait
of our city of cultures,
like you mentioned.
I mean, we have two
major ones in terms of,
the lingua franca
in Nigeria.
You're about how say, IBO?
Because I
don't like focusing
on my mother tongue,
which is a
and that also plays a part.

(56:39):
And there's also the,
the religious aspect as well,
where it is roughly
split into 50% Christian, 50%
or something.
Even within that too,
there is some
degree of variance
in terms of actually,
having some sort of,
I guess, common understanding
for a certain thing.
So there are
a lot of dynamics
and demographics, really,
that are the reason
why everything's
a lot more complex,

(56:59):
but I don't necessarily
fault it
as the reason why
there's either
a lot of corruption
or a lack of structure
or lack of prosperity.
I just feel like it's
one of those things where I
could easily slip
into understanding
and recognizing that
as more of a strength
as, as opposed to,
a hindrance.
So specifically succinctly
saying it's,
I guess, suffice to say,

(57:19):
would be thinking of it
more as adversity
breeds all the opportunities
for further prosperity.
Like we had a huge monolith,
it would probably be
a lot more difficult
for us to actualize
a lot of
opportunities at the scale
that we're doing, at the pace
we're doing right now,
whether it's mining
or just economic development.
So I think really all the
I guess, all the dynamics

(57:40):
that we have in place
in terms of complexity
and all the factors
and demographics
that we have this kind
of parcel of the reason
why I feel like
we're going to be really
at the forefront of the world
in terms of
ushering in a new era
for the whole world
of abundance. Unlike proper,
is a proper state,
economically speaking,
and kind of defining
what it means
to be a person in

(58:00):
21st century.
Really? Yeah.
I mean,
can't wait
to see how this plays out.
Like,
yeah, I know
we have four seats, so
yeah, yeah,
we have front row
seats and it's absolutely
speaking of front row seats.
Like,
are you doing
a lot of conferences
this upcoming year too?
Like,
are you traveling a lot?
Yeah. We'll see.

(58:20):
I mean,
obviously as you guys
know, like
with conferences, it's,
you know, balancing out
productivity as well as,
you know,
making that productivity
known or kind of helping us.
So we'll see.
I think it's
definitely too early for me
to know based on the timings.
But again, it seems this year
there will be some
conflicting conferences.
So I would take off
some of the roster from
my list and schedule.

(58:42):
All right.
And are there any
other subjects
that we haven't covered yet
that you
that you'd like to
to dive into?
I mean, briefly would be on
the, on
the investment side
on the continent.
Like,
I know we've talked
about both
the development side, open
source,
the system being open,
some of the practicalities
from mining.
I think another aspect

(59:03):
that's interesting
too, is on the placement side
in Africa,
like pretty
much have a large
fintech ecosystem here
in Africa,
for obvious reasons
that might just mark.
So we sort of sense
that people have been trying
to solve
the money issue
here on a continent.
And I think with regards
to that,
what I would suggest in
brief is
I have a mix of three things
that I'm seeing.
So one is a flip thing

(59:23):
that's happening
from the fintech space being,
you know,
where Bitcoin was spread
out of the opposite.
So Bitcoin
becoming the super
for fintechs.
And I think that's going
to take shape specifically
2025 onwards
in terms of
people starting
to understand
their fintech companies
from the standpoint
of Bitcoin,
whether it's
treasury management
or just for
sure, competitiveness
or staying afloat in terms

(59:43):
of being
a competitive company,
integrating Bitcoin
at some point are there.
It's on, again,
like I said,
treasury management
or just leveraging the
like network for institutions
or things around that.
And I think you will start
to see
some of those companies
also looking at
Bitcoin mining,
not just like
mining specifically,
but software
tools, services
around Bitcoin
and infrastructure
around Bitcoin mining.
And I'd say in terms of the

(01:00:05):
terms
of the general investment
outlook, I would say
Africa is definitely
one of the regions
that people
should keep a keen,
keen eye on,
especially in the
Bitcoin space,
for obvious reasons.
One is the share
I'm on Twitter.
Really, like I mentioned,
is one of the reasons
why it would likely reflect
the most accurate definition
of what it means
to be a company.
The two again,
because of this
someone diversity in
I guess I see as well.

(01:00:26):
It would be likely
that the most bleeding edge
in terms of innovation.
It's not one of those things
where we're just talking,
you know,
out of our assets,
one of those things
that has
actually materialized
over the last
couple of years,
well, there's
so much ink real
with USD code.
So every lightning network
all the way up to,
you know, tandoor
or some of these other things
I do,
I think we're going to see
even more projects
come out of that.
Craig, that's that,

(01:00:47):
that whole,
understanding of
there's so many challenges
that are uniquely African,
which can only be solved
by folks on the continent.
So I think
on the investments, there's
going to be
a lot of these companies
that mimic that.
I think the only question
would be balancing
all the innovation
and all the tech that's
going to come out
with actual viable
business models and
I guess the standpoint

(01:01:07):
from investors.
But on the consumer side,
we're definitely in
for a huge ride
in terms of experimentation,
a lot of innovation
on the ground.
So stuff
is going to get
really, really exciting
on the continent.
But,
Luke, I thought
you were going
to say something to this.
Sorry,
I don't know why
you were waiting.

(01:01:28):
If I don't know why
I did that. Yeah. No. Okay.
No. No.
Great to hear.
I mean, I mean, I think the,
I think the,
investment
angle is,
is an interesting one.
I mean,
the attractiveness of any,
place, generally,
any market generally is,
it's kind of

(01:01:49):
it's funny
that it's all
skewed, basically.
We're, we're
we're pretty much in a,
in, a state where the,
the US
government, by their
printing money
in and all of their systems
of foreign aid
and everything completely
skews the market of,
of where to invest money,
who to invest money
in, what regions of the world

(01:02:10):
to invest money in?
And, well, I,
I certainly hope that
that Bitcoin becomes
a leveler there.
And yeah, I mean, I
guess,
it sounds like you, you,
you see that happening
as, as well, right. Like,
that, that as things the,
the concept of fairness
whenever we talk about this

(01:02:30):
in the Bitcoin space
is not fairness
in terms of
forced redistributed
fairness is just it's just,
skewing the system. Right?
So is that
is that kind of
what you think
is going to happen here 100%.
Like it's
just the equality
of opportunity?
You know,
and I think
for a lot of us
on the ground,
especially whether
we're entrepreneurs
or stakeholders

(01:02:51):
and just being African is
because of the fact
that Bitcoin is global,
like you're the king
and something that works
everywhere in the world.
So it's not a case
where we're
building something
and then
hoping it gets to the stage
and maturity level,
that it could talk
to the rest of the world
somewhere
where infrastructure
has been built
for the future,
that's built, you know, by
the future really
pretty much of the emphasis

(01:03:12):
on the ground,
but also
for the future, really,
in the sense
that soon as you're able
to contribute to this, you're
contributing to bettering
not just the
lives of Africans,
but everyone else
around the world.
I think this whole
collaborative nature
and kind of the collaborative
effects of Parliament
in just the Bitcoin ecosystem
as a whole,
I think, is
one of the things
that's missing
on the continent in terms
of providing
that level of opportunity
that we're talking about,

(01:03:32):
and not just trying
to redistribute wealth.
No.
Like,
rules without
rulers is really equality,
towards the law.
Like if the rules are
the law, like then,
then we're all equal,
like, and, yeah, it's
that's a way to look at that,
I guess
the hundred percent
and the
permissionless nature,

(01:03:53):
I think
as well, of both
the development
and just being involved with
Bitcoin is a huge
one as well,
because that's
one of the reasons
why we're able to Keenan
honestly even
have this conversation.
Like if I had to request
for permission
from the Nigerian government
to start Bitcoin development
to get it more Bitcoin space,
things would have be
radically different.
So I think for
for a lot of people
around the world,
especially in the continent,
I think that level

(01:04:14):
of empowerment that comes
with not having to ask
for permission
to be
a useful person in the world
are just contribute
to this price,
which has been
a huge key motivator
for a lot of us
other developers,
entrepreneurs, or just
people who use Bitcoin.
Now, the
the day
that you
have to ask permission
to do anything in Bitcoin is
is the day the Bitcoin dies.
So fortunately, like
I don't know

(01:04:34):
if that's ever the case.
If you ever need
a government approval
to do anything with bitcoin
then is it you with
that is not bitcoin anymore?
I'm sorry
the project is over,
but that's not happening
anytime soon.
Is it?
If we do our work
and not know if we care,
if we stay vigilant and know
run our nodes
and so on and so forth. Yeah.

(01:04:55):
Abu Bakar,
it's been great having you
on a great conversation.
Are is there anywhere else
you want to send
our listeners
or anywhere
you want to direct them to?
Oh, I'd say for
those that are listening
that are
either on the continent
or looking to get involved,
the involvement,
I'd say follow,
you know,
be trust
stack our website

(01:05:16):
to take a look at the work
we're doing for X
and to get on nostre as well.
And personally,
just the developments
on the ground.
I catalog that in Forbes
catalog for digital assets
and just generally
just keeping up.
Like I tend to say
a lot about this.
So there are nostre
I hate 1999 same as X
and that's pretty much it.
I think,
the last thing would be
just taking a look at Africa

(01:05:37):
more concretely like
and taking a pulse of it.
Just to check in
because it's not likely going
to dictate,
continue to dictate really
what happens
in the rest of the world.
Like there's
so much saturation
everywhere else.
And Africa's really smart.
It's a lot of like room
and freedom really,
to properly innovate
and other press like
Latin America twin, you know.
So I say keep an eye on that.
So last question,
why do you hate 1999?

(01:06:00):
I was born in 1999
and I joined X when I was 11.
So the combination
of those two things,
I guess for me,
I thought was cool at times,
seemed like a weird emo.
But yeah, it's
one of those things
like, consequences
of joining social media
at an early age.
I guess.
Okay.

(01:06:21):
Yeah.
Luke, any more questions?
No.
Thanks. Aboubakar.
This is been a
great conversation. So, yeah.
That said,
check out everywhere you've,
you've already directed
people to and, yeah.
Thanks again for joining us.
Thanks so much
for having me, guys.
Hope to see you again soon
in real life.
So yeah.

(01:06:42):
Thanks, guys.
Thanks again.
This has been the Bitcoin
Infinity Show.
Thank you for listening.