October 16, 2024 • 28 mins
"Making Friends Among the Taliban" with Ankur Delight
In this episode of the Conflict Tipping podcast, host Laura May is joined by returning guest Ankur Delight, mediator and founder of a funk collective, to discuss Making Friends Among the Taliban by Jonathan Larson. The book tells the story of Dan Terry, a Methodist missionary who dedicated his life to development work, building relationships and trust in Afghanistan.
Highlights:
-
Learn how Dan's lack of judgment and dedication to finding common ground allowed him to build bridges with communities that held vastly different beliefs, all in pursuit of shared goals like clean water access.
-
Ankur reflects on the deep lessons of perseverance, optimism, and non-judgment that come from Terry’s life and work, and how these lessons have inspired him in his own journey.
Links:
- Ankur's podcast, 10k heroes: http://10kh.show/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ankurdelight/
- His website: https://tenthousandheroes.club/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura May (00:11):
Hello, and welcome to the Conflict Tipping podcast from Mediate.
com.
The podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
Today I have with me a repeatguest we've got Ankur Delight,
and he is, you may remember, thefounder of a funk collective.
He is a mediator.
He's a big fan of Ken Cloke.
(00:32):
He has never been toAntarctica as far as I'm aware.
And he's here to talk tous about another book.
So welcome again Ankur, how we doing.
Ankur Delight (00:41):
I'm great.
I'm great.
Thank you for having me back on the show.
Laura May (00:44):
No, we're back here to do another book review.
But we changed books actually.
So we are going to talk today thenabout "the time amongst the Taliban".
So, you've said a friendgave you this book,
Ankur Delight (00:56):
Yeah, so this book, I actually have a personal connection
in a, in a way that I went to highschool with one of the daughters of
the gentleman about whom this bookis written, so the book is written
by a guy named Jonathan Larson, andit's about a guy named Dan Terry.
And I went to high school for a year.
(01:17):
She was an exchange studentwith one of Dan's daughters.
And so it was kind of throughthat connection that I
have a really good friend.
I also went to high school with, she toldme, she's like, you need to read this book
if you're getting into studying conflict.
So I did.
So first of all, I'm goingto, I'm going to educate you.
Do you know about Methodist missionaries?
Laura May (01:36):
I mean, missionaries generally and I had very strong
opinions about that Mormon musical.
That made me very angry.
Um, But this is pretty much the extent,I would say, of my missionary knowledge.
I think.
Ankur Delight (01:50):
Okay, so I learned something and I realized that I
had, I don't know what you'd callthis technically, in my mind it's
like anti information because I knowabout missionaries generally and the
point of missionaries generally is toproselytize the word of the gospel,
spread the good news of Christ,and that is the exact opposite of
what a Methodist missionary does.
And I didn't know that.
(02:10):
And I went through most of my lifethinking, Oh, Methodist missionary,
like other missionaries, Methodistmissionaries do international development
work, there is no proselytizing.
Laura May (02:20):
So when you said the opposite of that, I thought they'd
go around and just spend spreadmisinformation or be like, you know what?
That god bro, worst ever.
Like, that's how I understood that.
So I'm glad you've clarified that it'snot that they don't still have a religious
mission, but they do development work.
Ankur Delight (02:37):
Yeah.
So, so that that's maybe themost important thing that
I learned in this process.
It's like, wow, that's really adifferent, it's a different valence
or a different meaning of that word.
So this guy, Dan Terry, about whomthis book is written, was a Methodist
missionary and he spent his entire lifedoing international development work.
And it was mostly, I think maybeall of it was in Afghanistan.
(03:00):
And so he was working there from, Ithink the early nineties to 2012 when
spoiler, he was eventually killed.
And he would come every once in awhile to the U S to go on tour,
basically visiting different churches.
Talking about what he had learned,what he'd seen, and raising
money to continue doing the work.
So this whole family lived in thisvolunteer, unpaid service- oriented
(03:26):
framework in Afghanistan for 30 years.
So,
Laura May (03:31):
That sounds really
Ankur Delight (03:31):
know,
Laura May (03:32):
I mean, you have actually just reminded me.
In my master's program, there was a girlwho was the daughter of missionaries.
And so had spent significantamount of time in conflict
zones as a result of that.
But I don't know.
I
don't know.
Ankur Delight (03:44):
Methodist?
Was she Methodist?
Laura May (03:46):
I don't know.
I know she was religious.
But honestly, I have a bit of asquicky feeling about the interlinks
between religiosity, specificallymissionary work and development work.
And that comes from when I was like18 ish, I was one of those really
annoying charity fundraisers thatstop you on the street and be like,
(04:07):
here's a problem in the world.
Give us all of yourmoney on a monthly basis.
And so I was one of thosein the UK, they're called
chuggers, like charity muggers.
So that was me.
I was a charity mugger and I wasfundraising at one point for MSF,
like super cool organization.
And But people would come up to us aswe're on the street being very visible
and make huge complaints about WorldVision, which is, I think, the most
(04:30):
known charity, at least in Australiaas far as development work goes.
And it has an explicitlyreligious mission.
It's actually in their,in their documents.
Like one of the key roles is to spreadthe word of god, blah, blah, blah.
But you would hear stories aboutpeople who would not be given aid, for
instance, unless they went to church.
(04:53):
So it was almost weaponized.
And so I have this, this real worry, andI don't know how overblown it is, but it
just, the dynamics of power of someonecoming into a country and having money
and resources and being able to help you.
But then they also have this missionof like, well, can I convert you?
Or can I talk to you about my religion?
I just, it makes me very uncomfortable.
(05:14):
Actually,
Ankur Delight (05:16):
Yeah.
I mean, this goes back to like old, youknow, the origins of contact between
Western European missionaries andpeople in Africa and in South America.
Where it's like we have these missionschools, have these cool things.
I don't know.
They didn't have TV, butsomething along those
Laura May (05:30):
we have TVs.
We're also time travelers.
We're here from 200 years in thefuture and we have televisions for you.
Ankur Delight (05:36):
We come from the future, but you have to convert to our
religion if you want our cool things.
totally.
Yeah, that, that's a, that is a trend.
People do that, but that'snot, that's the whole thing.
about Methodist missionariesis they're not like that.
That's,
Laura May (05:51):
Well, that's reassured me, but also I feel like you've been converted.
I don't know if you're a Methodist, butotherwise I feel like this book has,
has brought you on board inadvertently.
You're like, you know what?
I'm going to fangirl off now forthe, for the, anyway, but carry on.
But carry on.
Ankur Delight (06:04):
hundred percent, a hundred percent.
Cause it's something that I've alwaysvalued is people who spend their lives
in service, doing what I think is theright thing without worrying about
their personal wealth, enrichment,safety, even to me, it's really heroic
and all of my idols, like CesarChavez or Martin Luther King or Gandhi.
(06:26):
That's the life they lived.
And now I'm like, whoa, that's thelife that Methodist missionaries live.
And I, you know, the differencebetween you and me is I read this book.
It is.
That's the only differencebetween you and me.
Laura May (06:40):
The only one.
Wow.
Ankur Delight (06:42):
Yeah.
Laura May (06:43):
Okay.
So tell me about this book then.
So what's it about?
Like, where does it startand where does it take us?
Ankur Delight (06:49):
The sad part about this book is that it's written
because Dan Terry was killed.
And this is a guy who was not interestedin any kind of fame, was not interested
even in telling his own story.
Never did any writing that I know ofthat's public or that the author knows of.
But he was killed and his friend,Jonathan Larson was the best man
(07:10):
at Dan Terry's wedding or viceversa . They're old friends.
He was like, I need toshare this guy's story.
And a lot of the people that Danworked with because of the complicated
security situation in Afghanistan,you couldn't even use their names.
Bad things might happen to them if theyjust came out that they worked with Dan.
So a lot of the people areanonymous in this book.
(07:30):
And this guy, Jonathan went toAfghanistan and spent a bunch of time
trying to find the people Dan workedwith and get their stories about
Dan and things they did together.
And so it's part an ode to hisbest friend, but through the eyes of
all these other people who Jonathanhadn't met before this story, telling
him stories about his best friend.
(07:52):
And what comes out is a sort of narrativeabout Dan's work and also his attitude.
And his attitude is really whatI want to focus on, like it's
an attitude about conflict andabout what brings us together.
So, the whole point, is that he would goand meet with everyone in the town where
(08:15):
he was living and just talk to everyonehe could talk to, regardless of their
political positions, regardless of theirattitudes towards him or towards anybody
else, he would find a way to charm theminto hanging out with him and drinking
tea and find a point of commonality
Laura May (08:35):
Mm-Hmm.
Ankur Delight (08:35):
And use that point of commonality to work together.
And so the classic example is somekind of Taliban commander that has very
different views on gender and religionand the role of religion in society
than Dan did, but after talking tothem for a couple of hours, Dan would
(08:55):
realize that they shared one thing incommon, which is they're both interested
in clean water for that village.
And so then Dan would then put asideall of the differences that they had
and work with that village for a yearto use whatever knowledge and funding he
could get to build a clean water system.
(09:17):
And I want to draw this in contrast tohow most of us do things all the time.
Laura May (09:24):
I also wonder then what is the connection to Afghanistan?
Like why there?
Was it because he was there throughthe nineties as well you said,
Ankur Delight (09:34):
Yeah.
So his parents were alsoMethodist missionaries.
And I think he grew up in India, inNorthern India I think, and they would
work often, all over South Asia, butoften in Pakistan, Afghanistan, India,
and he would go there a lot with them.
Laura May (09:51):
All
Ankur Delight (09:51):
so, and then when they left, I think he was going
to go to college in the U S.
I mean, for me, I justfind this really romantic.
Like I wish I kind of wish my familywas like this or kind of wish I
was like this, but I'm not hisparents when they, they're like,
okay, you need to go to college.
We're going to take you back to the West.
So I'm going to order a van.
(10:13):
They ordered a van toIndia and picked it up.
Or maybe it was Pakistan, and thendrove and they spent like six months
driving and just getting in all kindsof hijinks along the way through
all of these different places that itbecame a very transformational voyage.
Just that, like, I'm going tosend you to college voyage.
(10:34):
So as soon as he finished, he waslike, I need to go back there.
Laura May (10:38):
I find it really interesting though that, I mean, yes, obviously
it's a very romantic idea, right?
To take the old Silk Road or what have youand somehow drive home from Afghanistan or
Pakistan, or wherever we decided it was.
But this also reminds me of how you'vedescribed your own story though, really.
Because I mean, you started off notspending more than six months in place.
(10:59):
It was even less time than that, right?
So in many ways you actually did this.
So I'm not surprised at all that youwere drawn to this because this sounds
like something you would 100 percent do.
Ankur Delight (11:08):
Yeah.
I've done some version of this,but it's, it's pretty extreme.
Especially with a bunch of kids.
I don't know how many kids theyhad, but three or four or five.
Laura May (11:15):
That's quite a, yeah, that's quite the road trip.
Ankur Delight (11:18):
Yeah.
Laura May (11:19):
Okay.
All right.
So he's gone on this road tripand he decides, all right,
I'll go back to Afghanistan.
And so what was his entrance point?
Like how did he start this?
How did he develop thisskillset, I suppose, as well,
Ankur Delight (11:32):
So I think he worked with an organization.
It was called the IAM,
Laura May (11:37):
international
Academy of mediators.
Ankur Delight (11:40):
Yeah.
It was the, yeah, he worked with theInternational Academy of Mediators.
No it wasn't that I forget what itstands for, but I'm guessing it's
some kind of Methodist, internationalMethodist development agency.
So it's like, it's like theMethodist USAID, I think is how I
think of it.
Laura May (11:54):
cool.
Ankur Delight (11:55):
And, and they placed him in their office in some town
and they're like, here, do some work.
And that's how he got started.
And in terms of skills, he hada lot of mechanical skills.
I think he also grew up doinga lot of mechanical stuff with
his dad, like fixing trucks andplanes and things like that, but
Laura May (12:13):
as one does, just fix the plane as a child.
Ankur Delight (12:16):
one lives in remote central Asia, when one grows up.
Laura May (12:19):
Yeah,
Ankur Delight (12:19):
I, you know, I think my sense is a lot of the other skills
were really just about communication.
And again, this is why I thinkit's so relevant for what
we're doing non judgment.
I would say his primarysuperpower is lack of judgment.
And then, he has some good like mechanicalskills and maybe some basic engineering
skills, but I don't think he's likebringing them and this it's an interesting
(12:43):
thing about international developmentand just working with people in general,
which I've done some of in my life.
A lot of it, it's not like you're doingthings that other people can't do.
Like I'm going to go and likebuild, build toilets in this slum.
It's not like the people theredon't know how to build toilets.
They can probably build thingsway better than you can.
But the idea is really aboutbringing inspiration, bringing
(13:05):
cooperation, bringing validation.
Sometimes it's just bringing money.
And so, you know, he had accessto some external funds, not a
huge amount, because I don't thinkMethodist USA Ideas is funded as U.
S.
USA Ideas.
But I think a lot of it is justthis I'm willing to like, do this.
And I'm willing to work withyou and I'm willing to work with
different sectors in society thatmay not be willing to work together.
(13:27):
And there, there is access tosome knowledge, like they did
a lot of midwife type projects.
one of the stories I remember is,they had this project they normally
do where they get all the young womenin a town together and have them share
stories, like birth experience stories.
As a way of understanding more aboutthe process, learning from each other.
And they go to this village and thevillage is, they want this, but the, the
(13:50):
leaders in the village who are all oldmen are like, yeah, but we're not going to
let you get all the young women togetherand talk to them without us there.
Cause god knows what you'regoing to do with them.
And so then they havethis extended negotiation.
I think it takes days of hanging outand eating and drinking together,
like Dan and these old men.
Until finally they come to that.
They're like, okay, why don't we justget all your old women together and
(14:13):
we'll do the same thing with them.
And then they can communicateto the young women.
Where the attitude I would take, andI think many people would take, is
if you're not going to do it the waywe want to do it, and you're going to
oppress these young women, then like,you And, and, and Dan's attitude or
their family's attitude was, we're goingto do the good that we can do here.
And it's all going to be helpful.
(14:36):
And we don't need to stand by this ideaof our principles or our values because
our values are really just being helpful.
And that for me was the mostRevolutionary and challenging part
of the book that that basic idea.
Laura May (14:49):
What strikes me is that
it doesn't even just soundlike lack of judgment.
It sounds like a dedicationto moving forward.
So you don't get stopped it's like, no,no, let's, let's find the way around this.
Like there's always thatsort of optimistic path
forward, but what about that?
Cause you described that as the mostchallenging part of the book for you.
(15:11):
I mean, why challenging?
Ankur Delight (15:15):
I mean if you had an opportunity like that, what would you do?
Laura May (15:20):
in a situation like that?
I feel like you've justgiven me the answer.
I don't know.
Like sometimes I get stubbornabout things and I'm like, no, I'm
going to find a way to do this.
So, I mean, I think I've learned topick my battles over time as well.
It's like, okay, where amI going to take a stand?
Where am I going to find a way forward?
Where is this just not the project for me?
(15:41):
I like to think I take a creativeapproach that explores different
avenues of moving forward.
And honestly, I think mediationtraining is something that's
really helped with that.
It's allowed me to move away fromcompetition to more collaborative spaces
and to embrace, not just mediationtraining, but that's one of them, right.
In terms of like looking for creativeprocesses and looking for ways forward
(16:04):
that aren't necessarily obvious at first.
Plus I grew up on computer games,like click and point adventure games.
And so like, I'm used to stickingfalse teeth into dummies to throw
off roofs right to win a game.
So, you know, I think there's abit of lateral thinking as it was
called for a little while there.
Which is so valuable in, inconflict spaces, actually.
Mm
Ankur Delight (16:25):
I mean I I just think that would be it's very difficult like if I
were presented an opportunity to workwith a bunch of people that I found most
of their beliefs totally abhorrent and Ihad to witness them treating each other
in a way that I really couldn't stand, and
Laura May (16:40):
hmm.
Mm
Ankur Delight (16:41):
my option was to work with them closely for a year and
see this kind of shit all the time.
I would, it would behard for me to do that.
Laura May (16:51):
Would be demoralizing,
Ankur Delight (16:52):
I, would, Yeah.
I mean, I would want to, I, you know,I've read the mediation books, like I
would want to, but just personally on alevel of just getting personally triggered
and encountering my ownjudgment and moralizing,
I would like, I'd have toconfront that all the time.
And we generally make choices, avoidhaving to make those daily confrontations.
(17:12):
And his family was makingthe exact opposite choice.
Laura May (17:18):
Yeah.
I think that if you are making thatchoice intentionally over and over
again, like it certainly takes a lot.
And I wonder about their emotionalresources, because this is something I
really struggled with living in Russiais that I just so profoundly disagreed
with so many things that people would sayor so many ways that people would act.
And so, I mean, I had to createlike a little safe space.
(17:42):
So it's the apartment I lived in,it's the people that I spent time
with and everything else just tohad to sort of close yourself off.
And I wrote about it like a lot.
So for me, that was an outlet.
And it makes me wonder, Imean, what was the, what were
the outlets in Daniel's case?
Like, does it talk about in thebook, like how he coped with this or
was he just so unaffected by this?
Ankur Delight (18:05):
Yeah, well, unfortunately, because of the circumstances of how the
book is written, it's not a biographyin which they had access to the subject.
But what the author does know is thatDan had a pretty fraught relationship
with the institutions he worked with,because he would just not follow rules.
He was a very improv,seat of the pants person.
(18:27):
They'd be like, Hey, everyoneneeds to leave the country.
Something's happening.
And he's like, Oh, it's actuallysafer to take this visiting delegation
into the just the back roads.
And just drive around for theday because something weird is
going to happen in the city.
I actually know what's safer for themthan somebody at the headquarters because
I know the conditions on the ground.
I'll make my own choice asto what's safer for them.
(18:49):
And so he had a really tenserelationship with these organizations
in the state that he worked for.
And eventually was abandoned by them.
But he really shined and thrived.
in what we would call difficultconversations with people on the ground
and was not able to do these difficultconversations with his superiors or,
(19:11):
bureaucrats back in North America.
So I don't know.
my my sense is that hewas really comfortable.
It's just like very comfortable withthe kind of conflict we're talking
about, but not as comfortable withthis more bureaucratic conflict.
So one of the stories is that he's on abus they get stopped by some militia.
(19:33):
And just like, they're just beatingsome person, an Afghan person.
, Dan busts out a camera, like a big cameraand starts taking all these pictures.
And they immediately stopped beatingthe person, and take him off the bus
and take the film out of the camera.
And he speaks, you know,multiple languages there.
And, and he goes to the guy andhe's like, Oh, I'm very sorry.
(19:55):
I'm very sorry about that.
I understand.
Take the film.
I don't know what I was thinking.
I didn't want to do that.
And then he puts, he puts his armaround the guy, the soldier with
the machine gun, who's doing this.
And it's like, but brother,the camera is mine.
And takes the cameraout of the guy's hand.
I, I see that and I'm justlike, wow, what a dreamy guy.
But the soldier just accepted it.
(20:17):
You know, it was like,okay, I'll take the film.
You take your camera back.
You get back on the bus.
And this was Dan's way of intervening andnot letting that person just get, like
he fully knew what was going to happen.
It was all planned out.
He's like, I'll distract them and thenI'll just figure out a way to be okay.
Laura May (20:33):
And I mean, I feel like we're jumping to the end here, but given
this context, I like, how did he die?
Cause you said he was killed.
And from the two things you'vesaid so far in terms of, I'll do
it my own way and see what happens.
And then I'll just throwmyself into danger.
I feel like I know the direction thisis going in, but would I be surprised?
Ankur Delight (20:55):
I don't know.
I don't know.
Well, let me tell you one morestory and then I'll tell you
the story of how he was killed.
And this is, I just tell this becauseit's probably my favorite line in the
book, is the punchline of this story.
But at one point he gets kidnapped,and basically for a ransom.
So the local warlord is like, Ohyeah, this white American dude.
Fine.
I'll kidnap him.
We'll get some money.
(21:16):
It's just like, who do you know?
That's got a lot of money.
And Dan's just laughing.
And he's like, I'm saying,man, you got the wrong guy.
I don't know anyone thathas any kind of money.
And he's just starts talkingabout his life and his friends
and like what they're here to do.
And, and he ends up just talking with theguards and the warlord and having tea.
And after I don't know if it's a dayor two, The warlord's like, Oh, this
(21:39):
guy, he's totally has no anxiety.
He's not afraid.
He's he must be telling the truthand he seems pretty, pretty legit.
And there's nothing I can get out of him.
And he calls one of his, one ofhis soldiers to slaughter some
animal and probably a goat.
And they had this big mealtogether, maybe it's kebabs.
And then he's like, all right,I fed you now you're free.
(22:00):
And so then Dan would always tellthe people he's working with,
"guys, hostage taking is justanother form of hospitality".
Laura May (22:08):
That is a good line.
That is a good line.
So, how was he ultimately killed?
Ankur Delight (22:15):
So it was in 2012 and he was helping organize a medical mission.
So he had a team of doctorsand whoever else was involved.
And they're in some remotepart of Afghanistan.
He had already made connections andgotten permission from the people that
govern that area, like the local Talibanauthorities, whoever else was involved.
And they finished the mission andthey were leaving, they were crossing
(22:37):
a river and some people came andstopped their car and just executed
every single one in the van.
And, you know, later.
People came in and foundout what was going on.
So according to the guythat wrote the book,
I mean, it's all very,it's all speculative.
No one, they don't know.
Right.
Or we don't know.
(22:58):
He, he thinks it would be very unusualand doesn't make any sense they would
be any of the authorities in thatregion because the authorities in that
region gave him explicit permissionand he'd like with them before.
And it's just not howthey would do things.
So he thinks it's some sort of regionalforeign militia or intervention.
But the important point for us is itwasn't that he didn't follow the rules,
(23:21):
like he was really good at following therules, the local rules, like all of his
work depended on building relationshipsand being able to follow local rules.
So it wasn't that he waslike, Oh, screw you guys.
I'm going to do this thing.
He knew that his work depended on gettingthe buy in of all the local players.
And so he always did that.
But it is fundamentally a dangerousregion with a lot of different
(23:47):
groups vying for power that have alot of conflict amongst themselves.
So my guess from what I could read isthat he was caught in something like that.
Laura May (23:58):
All right.
And so, I mean, you mentioned to me thatyou found this book a useful inspiration.
What was it about this bookthat inspired you so much?
Ankur Delight (24:11):
So another book I read recently is called Tattoos on the Heart.
Do you feel me with that?
Yeah.
You're gonna, you're gonna, I knowyou love these religious things,
so you're gonna love that one.
I, I just said, I'm a, I'm a sucker.
I'm a sucker for religiouspeople who are not proselytizing.
That's my, like, that'sreally my sweet spot.
And so this
Laura May (24:30):
Religious, but chill.
Like,
yeah.
Religious, but chill is your vibe.
Okay, cool.
Ankur Delight (24:35):
But they're using, they're using religion
to strengthen their social work.
And this is what I love.
And I'm always confused by andlove about Gandhi and Martin Luther
King is the like, god has been soimportant at every step in their lives.
Just not how I would frame it for my life.
(24:55):
Like, I don't think about god in that way.
And these people do on a daily basis.
And it's what they would both creditas allowing them to do what they did.
So that's a little backgroundfor my relationship to religion.
And this other guy, Greg Boyle, who'sa Jesuit priest in Southern California.
This whole book is about him justbeing unconditional love for all of
(25:20):
these youth and young gang members,basically people who are about to go into
gangs, in gangs, getting out of gangs.
And just the incredible amount oflove and patience where he will.
He will just say hi or offer a serviceor, Hey, you come by anytime you like to
this job training facility or whateverhe has every day for 10 years to a gang
(25:40):
member in that community , who willjust like respond by saying, you or
whatever it is until on the 11th year, theguy's like, all right, I need some help.
And Greg's heart and arms are as open asthe first day, you know, 3000 days before.
And for me, what Greg Boyle or Danor Martin Luther King, what they
bring me is this remembrance, thisreminder that we are all united.
(26:04):
We are all, like, this one consciousness.
We are inextricably connected.
by conflict, usually, and that if weback up and see that larger perspective,
it can be incredibly uplifting for us.
It can be edifying and we can serve andfeel a sense of contribution and purpose.
in our relationship to the other.
Laura May (26:25):
Beautiful.
And so just to wrap up and thinking ofthis book, that inspired you so much.
In what one way has thisbook changed your life?
Ankur Delight (26:40):
It's something about conflict and inspiration.
This guy actively chose to spend hisadult life mired in some of the harshest,
most violent conflict available.
And he did it in a way that broughtinspiration to everyone he met,
(27:02):
it seems, and brought inspirationto me just reading about it.
And the inspiration for me is tocontinue that work, that's like,
that's the kind of work I want to do.
And it feels very difficultsometimes, and very unlikely that
I'll be able to do it anywhere.
Like even in my town, cause it's, it'sharsh and it just makes it a little
(27:27):
bit more likely that I'll do that.
Laura May (27:30):
Very cool.
Well, look Ank, thanks for comingback for yet another bookisode.
Bookisode of the podcast.
For people who want to learn moreabout Ank and his work, I'm going
to put the links in the description.
And of course you can check outhis podcast, 10, 000 heroes, where
he will talk to some of the heroesthat we don't hear about so much.
So thanks again for joining and foreveryone else until next time, this is the
(27:53):
Conflict Tipping podcast from Mediate.com.
Hello, and welcome to the Conflict Tipping podcast from Mediate.
com.
The podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
Today I have with me a repeatguest we've got Ankur Delight,
and he is, you may remember, thefounder of a funk collective.
He is a mediator.
He's a big fan of Ken Cloke.
(00:32):
He has never been toAntarctica as far as I'm aware.
And he's here to talk tous about another book.
So welcome again Ankur, how we doing.
Ankur Delight (00:41):
I'm great.
I'm great.
Thank you for having me back on the show.
Laura May (00:44):
No, we're back here to do another book review.
But we changed books actually.
So we are going to talk today thenabout "the time amongst the Taliban".
So, you've said a friendgave you this book,
Ankur Delight (00:56):
Yeah, so this book, I actually have a personal connection
in a, in a way that I went to highschool with one of the daughters of
the gentleman about whom this bookis written, so the book is written
by a guy named Jonathan Larson, andit's about a guy named Dan Terry.
And I went to high school for a year.
(01:17):
She was an exchange studentwith one of Dan's daughters.
And so it was kind of throughthat connection that I
have a really good friend.
I also went to high school with, she toldme, she's like, you need to read this book
if you're getting into studying conflict.
So I did.
So first of all, I'm goingto, I'm going to educate you.
Do you know about Methodist missionaries?
Laura May (01:36):
I mean, missionaries generally and I had very strong
opinions about that Mormon musical.
That made me very angry.
Um, But this is pretty much the extent,I would say, of my missionary knowledge.
I think.
Ankur Delight (01:50):
Okay, so I learned something and I realized that I
had, I don't know what you'd callthis technically, in my mind it's
like anti information because I knowabout missionaries generally and the
point of missionaries generally is toproselytize the word of the gospel,
spread the good news of Christ,and that is the exact opposite of
what a Methodist missionary does.
And I didn't know that.
(02:10):
And I went through most of my lifethinking, Oh, Methodist missionary,
like other missionaries, Methodistmissionaries do international development
work, there is no proselytizing.
Laura May (02:20):
So when you said the opposite of that, I thought they'd
go around and just spend spreadmisinformation or be like, you know what?
That god bro, worst ever.
Like, that's how I understood that.
So I'm glad you've clarified that it'snot that they don't still have a religious
mission, but they do development work.
Ankur Delight (02:37):
Yeah.
So, so that that's maybe themost important thing that
I learned in this process.
It's like, wow, that's really adifferent, it's a different valence
or a different meaning of that word.
So this guy, Dan Terry, about whomthis book is written, was a Methodist
missionary and he spent his entire lifedoing international development work.
And it was mostly, I think maybeall of it was in Afghanistan.
(03:00):
And so he was working there from, Ithink the early nineties to 2012 when
spoiler, he was eventually killed.
And he would come every once in awhile to the U S to go on tour,
basically visiting different churches.
Talking about what he had learned,what he'd seen, and raising
money to continue doing the work.
So this whole family lived in thisvolunteer, unpaid service- oriented
(03:26):
framework in Afghanistan for 30 years.
So,
Laura May (03:31):
That sounds really
Ankur Delight (03:31):
know,
Laura May (03:32):
I mean, you have actually just reminded me.
In my master's program, there was a girlwho was the daughter of missionaries.
And so had spent significantamount of time in conflict
zones as a result of that.
But I don't know.
I
don't know.
Ankur Delight (03:44):
Methodist?
Was she Methodist?
Laura May (03:46):
I don't know.
I know she was religious.
But honestly, I have a bit of asquicky feeling about the interlinks
between religiosity, specificallymissionary work and development work.
And that comes from when I was like18 ish, I was one of those really
annoying charity fundraisers thatstop you on the street and be like,
(04:07):
here's a problem in the world.
Give us all of yourmoney on a monthly basis.
And so I was one of thosein the UK, they're called
chuggers, like charity muggers.
So that was me.
I was a charity mugger and I wasfundraising at one point for MSF,
like super cool organization.
And But people would come up to us aswe're on the street being very visible
and make huge complaints about WorldVision, which is, I think, the most
(04:30):
known charity, at least in Australiaas far as development work goes.
And it has an explicitlyreligious mission.
It's actually in their,in their documents.
Like one of the key roles is to spreadthe word of god, blah, blah, blah.
But you would hear stories aboutpeople who would not be given aid, for
instance, unless they went to church.
(04:53):
So it was almost weaponized.
And so I have this, this real worry, andI don't know how overblown it is, but it
just, the dynamics of power of someonecoming into a country and having money
and resources and being able to help you.
But then they also have this missionof like, well, can I convert you?
Or can I talk to you about my religion?
I just, it makes me very uncomfortable.
(05:14):
Actually,
Ankur Delight (05:16):
Yeah.
I mean, this goes back to like old, youknow, the origins of contact between
Western European missionaries andpeople in Africa and in South America.
Where it's like we have these missionschools, have these cool things.
I don't know.
They didn't have TV, butsomething along those
Laura May (05:30):
we have TVs.
We're also time travelers.
We're here from 200 years in thefuture and we have televisions for you.
Ankur Delight (05:36):
We come from the future, but you have to convert to our
religion if you want our cool things.
totally.
Yeah, that, that's a, that is a trend.
People do that, but that'snot, that's the whole thing.
about Methodist missionariesis they're not like that.
That's,
Laura May (05:51):
Well, that's reassured me, but also I feel like you've been converted.
I don't know if you're a Methodist, butotherwise I feel like this book has,
has brought you on board inadvertently.
You're like, you know what?
I'm going to fangirl off now forthe, for the, anyway, but carry on.
But carry on.
Ankur Delight (06:04):
hundred percent, a hundred percent.
Cause it's something that I've alwaysvalued is people who spend their lives
in service, doing what I think is theright thing without worrying about
their personal wealth, enrichment,safety, even to me, it's really heroic
and all of my idols, like CesarChavez or Martin Luther King or Gandhi.
(06:26):
That's the life they lived.
And now I'm like, whoa, that's thelife that Methodist missionaries live.
And I, you know, the differencebetween you and me is I read this book.
It is.
That's the only differencebetween you and me.
Laura May (06:40):
The only one.
Wow.
Ankur Delight (06:42):
Yeah.
Laura May (06:43):
Okay.
So tell me about this book then.
So what's it about?
Like, where does it startand where does it take us?
Ankur Delight (06:49):
The sad part about this book is that it's written
because Dan Terry was killed.
And this is a guy who was not interestedin any kind of fame, was not interested
even in telling his own story.
Never did any writing that I know ofthat's public or that the author knows of.
But he was killed and his friend,Jonathan Larson was the best man
(07:10):
at Dan Terry's wedding or viceversa . They're old friends.
He was like, I need toshare this guy's story.
And a lot of the people that Danworked with because of the complicated
security situation in Afghanistan,you couldn't even use their names.
Bad things might happen to them if theyjust came out that they worked with Dan.
So a lot of the people areanonymous in this book.
(07:30):
And this guy, Jonathan went toAfghanistan and spent a bunch of time
trying to find the people Dan workedwith and get their stories about
Dan and things they did together.
And so it's part an ode to hisbest friend, but through the eyes of
all these other people who Jonathanhadn't met before this story, telling
him stories about his best friend.
(07:52):
And what comes out is a sort of narrativeabout Dan's work and also his attitude.
And his attitude is really whatI want to focus on, like it's
an attitude about conflict andabout what brings us together.
So, the whole point, is that he would goand meet with everyone in the town where
(08:15):
he was living and just talk to everyonehe could talk to, regardless of their
political positions, regardless of theirattitudes towards him or towards anybody
else, he would find a way to charm theminto hanging out with him and drinking
tea and find a point of commonality
Laura May (08:35):
Mm-Hmm.
Ankur Delight (08:35):
And use that point of commonality to work together.
And so the classic example is somekind of Taliban commander that has very
different views on gender and religionand the role of religion in society
than Dan did, but after talking tothem for a couple of hours, Dan would
(08:55):
realize that they shared one thing incommon, which is they're both interested
in clean water for that village.
And so then Dan would then put asideall of the differences that they had
and work with that village for a yearto use whatever knowledge and funding he
could get to build a clean water system.
(09:17):
And I want to draw this in contrast tohow most of us do things all the time.
Laura May (09:24):
I also wonder then what is the connection to Afghanistan?
Like why there?
Was it because he was there throughthe nineties as well you said,
Ankur Delight (09:34):
Yeah.
So his parents were alsoMethodist missionaries.
And I think he grew up in India, inNorthern India I think, and they would
work often, all over South Asia, butoften in Pakistan, Afghanistan, India,
and he would go there a lot with them.
Laura May (09:51):
All
Ankur Delight (09:51):
so, and then when they left, I think he was going
to go to college in the U S.
I mean, for me, I justfind this really romantic.
Like I wish I kind of wish my familywas like this or kind of wish I
was like this, but I'm not hisparents when they, they're like,
okay, you need to go to college.
We're going to take you back to the West.
So I'm going to order a van.
(10:13):
They ordered a van toIndia and picked it up.
Or maybe it was Pakistan, and thendrove and they spent like six months
driving and just getting in all kindsof hijinks along the way through
all of these different places that itbecame a very transformational voyage.
Just that, like, I'm going tosend you to college voyage.
(10:34):
So as soon as he finished, he waslike, I need to go back there.
Laura May (10:38):
I find it really interesting though that, I mean, yes, obviously
it's a very romantic idea, right?
To take the old Silk Road or what have youand somehow drive home from Afghanistan or
Pakistan, or wherever we decided it was.
But this also reminds me of how you'vedescribed your own story though, really.
Because I mean, you started off notspending more than six months in place.
(10:59):
It was even less time than that, right?
So in many ways you actually did this.
So I'm not surprised at all that youwere drawn to this because this sounds
like something you would 100 percent do.
Ankur Delight (11:08):
Yeah.
I've done some version of this,but it's, it's pretty extreme.
Especially with a bunch of kids.
I don't know how many kids theyhad, but three or four or five.
Laura May (11:15):
That's quite a, yeah, that's quite the road trip.
Ankur Delight (11:18):
Yeah.
Laura May (11:19):
Okay.
All right.
So he's gone on this road tripand he decides, all right,
I'll go back to Afghanistan.
And so what was his entrance point?
Like how did he start this?
How did he develop thisskillset, I suppose, as well,
Ankur Delight (11:32):
So I think he worked with an organization.
It was called the IAM,
Laura May (11:37):
international
Academy of mediators.
Ankur Delight (11:40):
Yeah.
It was the, yeah, he worked with theInternational Academy of Mediators.
No it wasn't that I forget what itstands for, but I'm guessing it's
some kind of Methodist, internationalMethodist development agency.
So it's like, it's like theMethodist USAID, I think is how I
think of it.
Laura May (11:54):
cool.
Ankur Delight (11:55):
And, and they placed him in their office in some town
and they're like, here, do some work.
And that's how he got started.
And in terms of skills, he hada lot of mechanical skills.
I think he also grew up doinga lot of mechanical stuff with
his dad, like fixing trucks andplanes and things like that, but
Laura May (12:13):
as one does, just fix the plane as a child.
Ankur Delight (12:16):
one lives in remote central Asia, when one grows up.
Laura May (12:19):
Yeah,
Ankur Delight (12:19):
I, you know, I think my sense is a lot of the other skills
were really just about communication.
And again, this is why I thinkit's so relevant for what
we're doing non judgment.
I would say his primarysuperpower is lack of judgment.
And then, he has some good like mechanicalskills and maybe some basic engineering
skills, but I don't think he's likebringing them and this it's an interesting
(12:43):
thing about international developmentand just working with people in general,
which I've done some of in my life.
A lot of it, it's not like you're doingthings that other people can't do.
Like I'm going to go and likebuild, build toilets in this slum.
It's not like the people theredon't know how to build toilets.
They can probably build thingsway better than you can.
But the idea is really aboutbringing inspiration, bringing
(13:05):
cooperation, bringing validation.
Sometimes it's just bringing money.
And so, you know, he had accessto some external funds, not a
huge amount, because I don't thinkMethodist USA Ideas is funded as U.
S.
USA Ideas.
But I think a lot of it is justthis I'm willing to like, do this.
And I'm willing to work withyou and I'm willing to work with
different sectors in society thatmay not be willing to work together.
(13:27):
And there, there is access tosome knowledge, like they did
a lot of midwife type projects.
one of the stories I remember is,they had this project they normally
do where they get all the young womenin a town together and have them share
stories, like birth experience stories.
As a way of understanding more aboutthe process, learning from each other.
And they go to this village and thevillage is, they want this, but the, the
(13:50):
leaders in the village who are all oldmen are like, yeah, but we're not going to
let you get all the young women togetherand talk to them without us there.
Cause god knows what you'regoing to do with them.
And so then they havethis extended negotiation.
I think it takes days of hanging outand eating and drinking together,
like Dan and these old men.
Until finally they come to that.
They're like, okay, why don't we justget all your old women together and
(14:13):
we'll do the same thing with them.
And then they can communicateto the young women.
Where the attitude I would take, andI think many people would take, is
if you're not going to do it the waywe want to do it, and you're going to
oppress these young women, then like,you And, and, and Dan's attitude or
their family's attitude was, we're goingto do the good that we can do here.
And it's all going to be helpful.
(14:36):
And we don't need to stand by this ideaof our principles or our values because
our values are really just being helpful.
And that for me was the mostRevolutionary and challenging part
of the book that that basic idea.
Laura May (14:49):
What strikes me is that
it doesn't even just soundlike lack of judgment.
It sounds like a dedicationto moving forward.
So you don't get stopped it's like, no,no, let's, let's find the way around this.
Like there's always thatsort of optimistic path
forward, but what about that?
Cause you described that as the mostchallenging part of the book for you.
(15:11):
I mean, why challenging?
Ankur Delight (15:15):
I mean if you had an opportunity like that, what would you do?
Laura May (15:20):
in a situation like that?
I feel like you've justgiven me the answer.
I don't know.
Like sometimes I get stubbornabout things and I'm like, no, I'm
going to find a way to do this.
So, I mean, I think I've learned topick my battles over time as well.
It's like, okay, where amI going to take a stand?
Where am I going to find a way forward?
Where is this just not the project for me?
(15:41):
I like to think I take a creativeapproach that explores different
avenues of moving forward.
And honestly, I think mediationtraining is something that's
really helped with that.
It's allowed me to move away fromcompetition to more collaborative spaces
and to embrace, not just mediationtraining, but that's one of them, right.
In terms of like looking for creativeprocesses and looking for ways forward
(16:04):
that aren't necessarily obvious at first.
Plus I grew up on computer games,like click and point adventure games.
And so like, I'm used to stickingfalse teeth into dummies to throw
off roofs right to win a game.
So, you know, I think there's abit of lateral thinking as it was
called for a little while there.
Which is so valuable in, inconflict spaces, actually.
Mm
Ankur Delight (16:25):
I mean I I just think that would be it's very difficult like if I
were presented an opportunity to workwith a bunch of people that I found most
of their beliefs totally abhorrent and Ihad to witness them treating each other
in a way that I really couldn't stand, and
Laura May (16:40):
hmm.
Mm
Ankur Delight (16:41):
my option was to work with them closely for a year and
see this kind of shit all the time.
I would, it would behard for me to do that.
Laura May (16:51):
Would be demoralizing,
Ankur Delight (16:52):
I, would, Yeah.
I mean, I would want to, I, you know,I've read the mediation books, like I
would want to, but just personally on alevel of just getting personally triggered
and encountering my ownjudgment and moralizing,
I would like, I'd have toconfront that all the time.
And we generally make choices, avoidhaving to make those daily confrontations.
(17:12):
And his family was makingthe exact opposite choice.
Laura May (17:18):
Yeah.
I think that if you are making thatchoice intentionally over and over
again, like it certainly takes a lot.
And I wonder about their emotionalresources, because this is something I
really struggled with living in Russiais that I just so profoundly disagreed
with so many things that people would sayor so many ways that people would act.
And so, I mean, I had to createlike a little safe space.
(17:42):
So it's the apartment I lived in,it's the people that I spent time
with and everything else just tohad to sort of close yourself off.
And I wrote about it like a lot.
So for me, that was an outlet.
And it makes me wonder, Imean, what was the, what were
the outlets in Daniel's case?
Like, does it talk about in thebook, like how he coped with this or
was he just so unaffected by this?
Ankur Delight (18:05):
Yeah, well, unfortunately, because of the circumstances of how the
book is written, it's not a biographyin which they had access to the subject.
But what the author does know is thatDan had a pretty fraught relationship
with the institutions he worked with,because he would just not follow rules.
He was a very improv,seat of the pants person.
(18:27):
They'd be like, Hey, everyoneneeds to leave the country.
Something's happening.
And he's like, Oh, it's actuallysafer to take this visiting delegation
into the just the back roads.
And just drive around for theday because something weird is
going to happen in the city.
I actually know what's safer for themthan somebody at the headquarters because
I know the conditions on the ground.
I'll make my own choice asto what's safer for them.
(18:49):
And so he had a really tenserelationship with these organizations
in the state that he worked for.
And eventually was abandoned by them.
But he really shined and thrived.
in what we would call difficultconversations with people on the ground
and was not able to do these difficultconversations with his superiors or,
(19:11):
bureaucrats back in North America.
So I don't know.
my my sense is that hewas really comfortable.
It's just like very comfortable withthe kind of conflict we're talking
about, but not as comfortable withthis more bureaucratic conflict.
So one of the stories is that he's on abus they get stopped by some militia.
(19:33):
And just like, they're just beatingsome person, an Afghan person.
, Dan busts out a camera, like a big cameraand starts taking all these pictures.
And they immediately stopped beatingthe person, and take him off the bus
and take the film out of the camera.
And he speaks, you know,multiple languages there.
And, and he goes to the guy andhe's like, Oh, I'm very sorry.
(19:55):
I'm very sorry about that.
I understand.
Take the film.
I don't know what I was thinking.
I didn't want to do that.
And then he puts, he puts his armaround the guy, the soldier with
the machine gun, who's doing this.
And it's like, but brother,the camera is mine.
And takes the cameraout of the guy's hand.
I, I see that and I'm justlike, wow, what a dreamy guy.
But the soldier just accepted it.
(20:17):
You know, it was like,okay, I'll take the film.
You take your camera back.
You get back on the bus.
And this was Dan's way of intervening andnot letting that person just get, like
he fully knew what was going to happen.
It was all planned out.
He's like, I'll distract them and thenI'll just figure out a way to be okay.
Laura May (20:33):
And I mean, I feel like we're jumping to the end here, but given
this context, I like, how did he die?
Cause you said he was killed.
And from the two things you'vesaid so far in terms of, I'll do
it my own way and see what happens.
And then I'll just throwmyself into danger.
I feel like I know the direction thisis going in, but would I be surprised?
Ankur Delight (20:55):
I don't know.
I don't know.
Well, let me tell you one morestory and then I'll tell you
the story of how he was killed.
And this is, I just tell this becauseit's probably my favorite line in the
book, is the punchline of this story.
But at one point he gets kidnapped,and basically for a ransom.
So the local warlord is like, Ohyeah, this white American dude.
Fine.
I'll kidnap him.
We'll get some money.
(21:16):
It's just like, who do you know?
That's got a lot of money.
And Dan's just laughing.
And he's like, I'm saying,man, you got the wrong guy.
I don't know anyone thathas any kind of money.
And he's just starts talkingabout his life and his friends
and like what they're here to do.
And, and he ends up just talking with theguards and the warlord and having tea.
And after I don't know if it's a dayor two, The warlord's like, Oh, this
(21:39):
guy, he's totally has no anxiety.
He's not afraid.
He's he must be telling the truthand he seems pretty, pretty legit.
And there's nothing I can get out of him.
And he calls one of his, one ofhis soldiers to slaughter some
animal and probably a goat.
And they had this big mealtogether, maybe it's kebabs.
And then he's like, all right,I fed you now you're free.
(22:00):
And so then Dan would always tellthe people he's working with,
"guys, hostage taking is justanother form of hospitality".
Laura May (22:08):
That is a good line.
That is a good line.
So, how was he ultimately killed?
Ankur Delight (22:15):
So it was in 2012 and he was helping organize a medical mission.
So he had a team of doctorsand whoever else was involved.
And they're in some remotepart of Afghanistan.
He had already made connections andgotten permission from the people that
govern that area, like the local Talibanauthorities, whoever else was involved.
And they finished the mission andthey were leaving, they were crossing
(22:37):
a river and some people came andstopped their car and just executed
every single one in the van.
And, you know, later.
People came in and foundout what was going on.
So according to the guythat wrote the book,
I mean, it's all very,it's all speculative.
No one, they don't know.
Right.
Or we don't know.
(22:58):
He, he thinks it would be very unusualand doesn't make any sense they would
be any of the authorities in thatregion because the authorities in that
region gave him explicit permissionand he'd like with them before.
And it's just not howthey would do things.
So he thinks it's some sort of regionalforeign militia or intervention.
But the important point for us is itwasn't that he didn't follow the rules,
(23:21):
like he was really good at following therules, the local rules, like all of his
work depended on building relationshipsand being able to follow local rules.
So it wasn't that he waslike, Oh, screw you guys.
I'm going to do this thing.
He knew that his work depended on gettingthe buy in of all the local players.
And so he always did that.
But it is fundamentally a dangerousregion with a lot of different
(23:47):
groups vying for power that have alot of conflict amongst themselves.
So my guess from what I could read isthat he was caught in something like that.
Laura May (23:58):
All right.
And so, I mean, you mentioned to me thatyou found this book a useful inspiration.
What was it about this bookthat inspired you so much?
Ankur Delight (24:11):
So another book I read recently is called Tattoos on the Heart.
Do you feel me with that?
Yeah.
You're gonna, you're gonna, I knowyou love these religious things,
so you're gonna love that one.
I, I just said, I'm a, I'm a sucker.
I'm a sucker for religiouspeople who are not proselytizing.
That's my, like, that'sreally my sweet spot.
And so this
Laura May (24:30):
Religious, but chill.
Like,
yeah.
Religious, but chill is your vibe.
Okay, cool.
Ankur Delight (24:35):
But they're using, they're using religion
to strengthen their social work.
And this is what I love.
And I'm always confused by andlove about Gandhi and Martin Luther
King is the like, god has been soimportant at every step in their lives.
Just not how I would frame it for my life.
(24:55):
Like, I don't think about god in that way.
And these people do on a daily basis.
And it's what they would both creditas allowing them to do what they did.
So that's a little backgroundfor my relationship to religion.
And this other guy, Greg Boyle, who'sa Jesuit priest in Southern California.
This whole book is about him justbeing unconditional love for all of
(25:20):
these youth and young gang members,basically people who are about to go into
gangs, in gangs, getting out of gangs.
And just the incredible amount oflove and patience where he will.
He will just say hi or offer a serviceor, Hey, you come by anytime you like to
this job training facility or whateverhe has every day for 10 years to a gang
(25:40):
member in that community , who willjust like respond by saying, you or
whatever it is until on the 11th year, theguy's like, all right, I need some help.
And Greg's heart and arms are as open asthe first day, you know, 3000 days before.
And for me, what Greg Boyle or Danor Martin Luther King, what they
bring me is this remembrance, thisreminder that we are all united.
(26:04):
We are all, like, this one consciousness.
We are inextricably connected.
by conflict, usually, and that if weback up and see that larger perspective,
it can be incredibly uplifting for us.
It can be edifying and we can serve andfeel a sense of contribution and purpose.
in our relationship to the other.
Laura May (26:25):
Beautiful.
And so just to wrap up and thinking ofthis book, that inspired you so much.
In what one way has thisbook changed your life?
Ankur Delight (26:40):
It's something about conflict and inspiration.
This guy actively chose to spend hisadult life mired in some of the harshest,
most violent conflict available.
And he did it in a way that broughtinspiration to everyone he met,
(27:02):
it seems, and brought inspirationto me just reading about it.
And the inspiration for me is tocontinue that work, that's like,
that's the kind of work I want to do.
And it feels very difficultsometimes, and very unlikely that
I'll be able to do it anywhere.
Like even in my town, cause it's, it'sharsh and it just makes it a little
(27:27):
bit more likely that I'll do that.
Laura May (27:30):
Very cool.
Well, look Ank, thanks for comingback for yet another bookisode.
Bookisode of the podcast.
For people who want to learn moreabout Ank and his work, I'm going
to put the links in the description.
And of course you can check outhis podcast, 10, 000 heroes, where
he will talk to some of the heroesthat we don't hear about so much.
So thanks again for joining and foreveryone else until next time, this is the
(27:53):
Conflict Tipping podcast from Mediate.com.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.