September 13, 2023 • 43 mins
Original thinkers are so valuable in the marketing world and that’s why, in this episode of the Content Rebels, it's been so great to peer into the mind of B2B Marketer, Mark Ankucic. In this episode Sarah and Mark discuss how marketing has evolved and where the focus really should lie.
In this episode you’ll learn:
- Why thinking about how people act in the real world is key to marketing success
- The importance of buying committees
- How to structure your marketing team for the win and reach that polished 1%
- Why B2B marketing is challenging but also, so much fun to work in
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Spence (00:02):
This episode was supposed to be about B2B
marketing. And it is, but it'salso about whose opinion matters
when you buy something, whymarketing hasn't changed since
the dark ages, and well,Vegemite chicken. Welcome to the
wonderful mind of marketingproblem solver, Mark Ankucic.
(00:22):
Hi, I'm Sarah Spence, I grew aContent Agency from just me to
20 people inside two years. Soyou'd think I had all my shit
together. And even though I tryto come at everything with a
rebellious curiosity, I've beenso focused on growing this thing
that I'm a bit behind in thetrends. Join me on this journey
(00:42):
to find out what's actuallyhappening in the world of
marketing. Welcome to theContent Rebels.
Creating content is really aboutworking out who you're speaking
to, and what they want to hear.Right? Well, maybe. Mark Ankucic
is a B2B marketing consultant.And he's been here in the
marketing game for over adecade. And somewhere in there,
(01:04):
he stopped doing exactly what hewas told to do, and started
doing something that made moresense to him, and probably to a
lot of other people. So Markworks in marketing, but his
profession is actually problemsolving. His favourite clients
are those that haven't reallybeen doing any marketing,
because they have the most funproblems to solve. He's got a
(01:26):
dry wit and doesn't mind it whenI get his name wrong.
Mark Ankucic (01:29):
So back in the old country would have been Ankucic,
but we changed it to Ankucichere because we thought it'd be
easy to say, I don't thinkthat's quite washed out.
Sarah Spence (01:37):
And even though I don't really know how to say his
surname, Mark's mate of mine.B2B marketing is his thing. So
it makes sense to start bygetting his interpretation of
how B2B marketing is faringright now. But his response
wasn't exactly what I wasexpecting.
Mark Ankucic (01:54):
I would say it's a nightmare. It's just gotten
harder and harder over the last,I would say even couple of
years, attribution is gettingway more difficult to actually
pin down to any form ofaccuracy. There's a billion
tools, there's so many competingpriorities from businesses,
(02:15):
there's a completemisunderstanding, sometimes
internally of how content'ssupposed to be or there's a
misunderstanding of who theaudience is, there's a lot of
things need to go right formarketing to work in a B2B
organisation. And a lot of thetimes it's not there. So it is a
(02:35):
nightmare.
Sarah Spence (02:36):
Yeah. Okay. And so, do you feel like then that
B2B has even changed much? Or isit just that marketing in
general that's a nightmare thesedays?
Mark Ankucic (02:46):
I think B2C has the luxury that you're only ever
really talking to people thatneed to buy things without too
much buy in from other people.Sure, it does happen. But when
you're a business talking toanother business, the first
thing is, when tech SaaS and allthat stuff started was new,
(03:09):
people looking for tools, theythought tools could change their
world, solve all their problems.But now, the areas flooded. And
this goes outside of tech Saasas well just there's endless
services, there's endlessagencies, endless everyone
promising everything. And soit's really hard now to gain
that trust and to sort of standout in that crowd. So yeah, it's
(03:33):
definitely changed a lot in B2B,it probably has changed a bit as
it haven't been in B2C for alittle while now. But I can't
imagine it's changed that muchcomparatively.
I guess the other thing is,well, it's just defining what
the actual problem you're facingis. So a lot of companies that I
consult for, I've worked in,they're like, "Oh, my God, we
(03:55):
have to do X." And I was like,"Okay, well, why do you have to
do X?" I've seen everyone elsedo it. It's talk of the town.
I've heard people get greatresults from doing this thing.
And it's like, "Well, is itactually going to work for us?"
And that is the real problemthat any business in the B2B
(04:16):
space should be really focusingon is like, "What problem are we
trying to solve and can it besolved through marketing
efforts?" If it can be solvedthrough marketing efforts, what
should those efforts be?
Sarah Spence (04:27):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, do businesses really
sell to other businesses, or isit more people to people? Is
that a more accuraterepresentation? Is B2B actually
different to B2C? Because frommy perspective, I feel like it
really is about people. We are abusiness but we are people
within a business selling topeople who are working for
(04:49):
another business or brand. I'mnot Content Copywriting, selling
to Koala or Modi Bodi. I amSarah and I am speaking to and
trying to engage with theindividuals within those
businesses, does that make anysense?
Mark Ankucic (05:04):
Well, I think it really depends on the question
of is there a buying committeeon the other side, and most
often, there is for B2B,whatever it is. So if you are a
big agency that's going after abig client, or maybe you're
working for government, you haveto go through so many loopholes,
(05:25):
you got to make sure yourprivacy policy is right, you got
to make sure data is stored inthe right way, you've got to
talk to x, y, z person in thereto make sure that your service
or product or whatever it is,can actually be used with data,
B2C, or whatever you want tocall it. This sort of more
direct person-to-person thing,most of the time, there's going
(05:47):
to be your business or yourmarketer straight to that
person. But in reality, itdoesn't always wash out like
that. Because if I wanted to buya car today, I would need to
check in with my wife. That issomething that would have to
happen. But if I wanted to buy atool for my business, my
(06:09):
consulting business, I wouldn'thave to ask anyone, that is
straight B2B. You can advertiseto me like a single person. And
that can work for in house aswell. If your tool, whatever it
is you're selling only cost like25 bucks a month or something,
you are selling person toperson. But yeah, so it's just
(06:31):
about you got to ask, like, it'salways gonna be people to people
or person to person. But it justdepends on how many people are
on the other side. And that isthe question you should be
really asking, who actuallyneeds to buy into this thing for
me to get that yes at the end ofthe day.
I guess the best example is withmy nieces and nephews, my
(06:52):
sister-in-law, brother-in-law,they're like, "Please, just
don't buy us any more stuff. Wehave stuff, we have so much
stuff." So it's like, oh, theycan advertise, this is for three
to 12, this is for whatever,this is made out of best
plastic that helps rainforestfrogs live again, or whatever it
is. But at the end of the day,people just don't need more
(07:12):
stuff, it's like, "Okay, do Ineed to go for experiences then?
Or do I need to really justifythis stuff is for something
other than just having?" Andthen you're asking the
grandparents, you're going tosee what they're getting.
There's just all these humaninteractions that you really
need to take into account withwhatever you're selling.
Sarah Spence (07:35):
Yeah. Oh, my God, that totally makes sense,
especially when you say it thatway, like talking about this
buying committee usingchildren's presence as that
example. But do you think thatmarketers in general, though,
really think it through in thatway, when they're making
campaigns, when they're tryingto make content? I'm not sure
any of us really do.
Mark Ankucic (07:55):
Really short on that question. I don't think
most marketers think.
Sarah Spence (08:00):
I think that's kind of true, too, sadly. But I
think we all try to think. Ithink that is our jobs, right?
Is to try and think but I don'tknow, did it change at some
point? Or what process should webe following? Where do you think
it's going wrong?
Mark Ankucic (08:18):
I'll be straight. I guess the problem that I see
in the marketing space, andprobably even further in the B2B
space, because you need to do somuch more thinking is that the
entry level to being a marketeris nil. You can just be a
marketer tomorrow, if anyonereally wants to be, you could do
like a free course or whateverand you're roughly a marketer.
(08:40):
No one's gonna ask for yourmarketing certificate or get
your mentor to come in and belike, "Yes, this is a marketer
now." And so you just getregular people. And of course,
in any profession, there's like,not great people at that
profession. So you just getpeople in who don't think about
(09:02):
problems, and you don't thinkabout how people actually work
in the real world. That is morethan anything else, more than
being able to do Facebook ads,being able to do copy, being
able to whatever it is. If youdo not have that drive to go
why, like what is happening tomake....what is happening, what
(09:23):
is going on, what is actuallyhappening in people's minds and
in the decisions and on theground? There's never going to
be quality marketing on theother side of that.
Sarah Spence (09:33):
Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right, that you need
to have that drive to ask why.But what sort of strategies then
do you draw on to be able tocraft and execute those wins for
your clients?
Mark Ankucic (09:47):
Yeah. Literally it's like, what is the problem?
That is it. That is all I'mtalking about. I banned the use
of word strategy, tactics. Idon't talk about any of that
stuff, I go in and..what are youtrying to achieve and what is
actually stopping you fromachieving that? And that's
anywhere; it might be awareness,it might be like, I don't think
(10:10):
we're getting enough signups, itmight be we can't really sell
this one thing, or we don't knowhow to do messaging for our
company, whatever it is. Butit's just finding what they
think the problem is, finding ifthat actually relates to what
I'm seeing in the data, and thenwe go on from there. And I
think, what normally happens inthe consulting and my consulting
(10:33):
space anyway, is I'll get pulledin for one thing, but it'll turn
out it's like a dozen or moreother things where if you make
these tweaks, then the problemthat you think you have, will
actually become a problem thatyou can solve.
Sarah Spence (10:49):
And so how do you walk a client through that? Are
they okay come with you on thatjourney or do you tend to get
pushback?
Mark Ankucic (10:55):
Depends. It's hit and miss, it's like with
anything really. I mean, you getsome people who are like super
adamant about this is the thingwe need to do. I was talking
with a potential client once andhe's like, "Oh, we need more
case studies. So we need morecase studies for the sales
team." And I'm like, "Alright,okay, why?" And he's like, "Ah,
(11:16):
our other market has been doingthem, she's been doing a great
job, but she just doesn't havethe time to produce these
things." I'm like, "Oh, how doyou know they work?" And he was
like, "Oh, it's not really aboutwhether they work or not, it's
about the sales team havingthem" And I'm like, "Why would
you do that?" I didn't want tocharge this guy. And I actually
told him, "I don't want tocharge you for something I don't
(11:38):
know it's going to work, becauseotherwise, I'm just giving you
stuff." And yeah, we didn't goahead with work, which was fine.
Obviously, he had his ideas, butyou get other people and I'd be
like, "Look, I know you've justspent a ton of money on a
website refresh and a copyrefresh but this is not good.
This is not helping." And theygo, yeah, sure. If that's what
(11:59):
you say, I trust you, let's gowith it.
Sarah Spence (12:01):
But they're saying yes to that because that's the
quality of what you're offering,though, isn't it?
Mark Ankucic (12:06):
Yeah. So if you're not offering quality, and this
is where we can go into likesuch a rabbit hole, like such
philosophical whirlwind is like,what does quality end up being.
Because I've worked with someclients, and I hate this, but
Sarah Spence (12:23):
But that's a totally integrity led approach.
they'll ask for something that'snot really their problem.
That's a very valid, beautifulhuman way to be.
They're asking you to solve it.If you do solve it, you haven't
really done anything, they'renot going to get anything from
it. But you've made them worryless, or they think they have
what they need. And it's justlike...and that honestly, it
(12:44):
doesn't keep me awake at night.But it is something I think
about a lot, which is like,"Have I done a good thing here?"
I don't know. If I was a doctoror a therapist or something like
obviously, you'd say no, don'tdo that, they need to hear the
absolute truth. But where doesthat filter down to marketing? I
(13:04):
don't know. I think I thinkabout that way too much to be
honest. And it's gotten me introuble so many times. But yeah,
that's how I approach it anyway.
Mark Ankucic (13:22):
I don't even know at this point. I just think
like, I get a lot of commentsfrom both in house, you're very
set in your ways. And I'm justlike, "Look, I just don't want
to... you know what, if I wantedto do stuff and I really didn't
care, I'd go work forpharmaceuticals, because they
pay a fortune. And I don't wantto so where's the line?
Sarah Spence (13:49):
Time to press pause for a second. Mark's
right. We should always bechecking back to the main
purpose to what makes sense. Ilike to think that I always do
that. But you and I, we're in anindustry that has just exploded
in its potential in terms of itsimpact, in terms of its scope.
And therefore, in terms of whatyou need to keep across. But how
(14:11):
did we get here and why do somemarketers want to toe the line
and tick off those KPIs whileothers want to do anything but?
Are we back playing a moral tugof war again? And just how did
Mark end up here to a place inhis career where he does
question why we all do what wedo?
Mark Ankucic (14:29):
Yeah, so I never wanted to be a marketer. I just
thought of complete scumbags.And I guess like, part of that
was the first marketers I everworked with were just like very
party hard kind of, I don'tknow, they were unique in their
way. And also, I thought, theseguys are really smart. And you
(14:51):
see Mad Men and you see all thiskind of stuff. And you just
think, "Oh, these marketers,these people are just so smart
and they've got this gung holifestyle." I was like, "That's
just not for me." It just feelsreally scummy and shady. And
then I ended up getting acontract writing gig with
government. And then I got arecruiter call me and say, "Hey,
(15:14):
do you know what SEO is?" And Iwas like, "Can't even spell it."
He goes, "Learn SEO, and I'llget you this job." So I did. And
I was like, "Hey, this is reallyinteresting. This makes complete
sense." I got a job as an SEOmanager. And then I got a job as
content manager. And then Ibecame a marketing enablement
guy in the same way that wassales enablement. And I just
(15:36):
kept learning. And I just keptpushing. And I kept finding what
we were really doing at the endof the day was like, you have to
tell the truth. That's what Ikind of fell in love with. You
have to find creative ways andinteresting ways to tell that
truth and get in touch withpeople and genuinely like...
even if it's like a mediocreproduct, as long as it's helping
(15:57):
their lives, you're doing a goodthing. So it just started
ringing more and more true tome. And I kept reading books, I
kept doing courses. And thenpart of that was like leading
teams or by creating strategies.And I guess, I let go of the
idea that I wasn't smart enough,or I wasn't good enough or that
other people knew better thanme, because like, as I was going
(16:21):
through to that earlier point, Iask why. And I keep asking why
until I feel like I have a goodenough handle on the situation
to do whatever it is and justlike letting go of arts, it's
not for me, and just being like,yeah, this is who I am and I can
do this. And that's how I got towhere I am.
Sarah Spence (16:41):
So I feel like you've come from a philosophy
viewpoint on this. It's moreabout understanding humans,
rather than just ticking off howto write a paid marketing
campaign, which I guess in someways, is the thing that you can
learn. But it's not the thingthat's in you that will make you
a great marketer.
Mark Ankucic (17:00):
You've nailed it so well. That is absolutely spot
on. I've met some.... And Ihonestly think I don't like how
marketing teams are structuredfor the most part, because you
need people who can think likethat. And then you need people
who can do the actual stuff. Ican do Facebook and Google ads.
(17:20):
I can't do them particularlywell. But I've met people who
can do them really well as inlike the setting up the
campaigns and whatnot, but howthey actually do ads is
terrible. And that's becausethey're really good at technical
side, but they don't get people.Any day of the week, I'd rather
(17:40):
have someone who questions whyand gets people and then learns
that other stuff, even if it'snot as good as someone else,
then have someone who justdoesn't get people and can do
all the technical gizmos.
Sarah Spence (17:54):
Yeah, that's a really good way to look at it.
But tell me why then did youchoose to go into B2B marketing
specifically? I mean, youobviously get people and you're
someone who obsessively likes toask why. Is that what led you
there? What was the drawcardultimately?
Mark Ankucic (18:13):
It's way more challenging, it's just way more
fun. I've done a bit of B2C veryearly in my career. I don't
know, it probably looks a lotmore flashy from the outside,
but it's just, I think with alot of B2C stuff, there's just
so much more wriggle room. Andthe reason I know this is
(18:35):
because I've seen a lot of B2Cmarketing, and it wouldn't
survive in the B2B space. Youcouldn't do the kind of ads that
you see going around for... Ithink the best example was this
dog food brand on this bus imageof this dog food brand. I had a
(18:58):
picture of a man, athletic mancatching the ball and said, "If
he was a dog, he would be eatingour dog food." But it's like, if
it's on a bus and it's goingpast and you really only have
about three to four seconds tocomprehend what's going on all
you really see is good-lookingdude could do catching a ball
and then dog food next to him.You're just like, "Are we eating
dog food now? What is going on?"
(19:21):
In the B2B space if you didthat, it's the fallout, it's
just so much worse. Because Idon't think the dog food is any
worse because of it. If you dothat in the B2B space, you're
like, "These guys sound likeidiots." This is not good work.
I'm not sure if I'm gonna gowith them. So it's like the push
for quality is just so muchhigher and I don't know. I just
(19:45):
love that challenge aspects.
Sarah Spence (19:47):
Oh, yeah, I totally get that. There's a bit
of a segway but silly story.There's a bus here where I live
that is all pink and it has allof these cute Anne Geddes babies
on it, right? And every timewe're in the car, my girls are
like, "Oh, there's the baby bus,there's the baby bus." And I
always look at it and think thatit's a bus for like a baby
(20:09):
photographer, because that'swhat it's so stylized. That's
what it looks like. It'sactually a bus for an
obstetrician gynaecologist,which fair enough, he delivers
babies, I get that, but it'sjust, I don't know, it's so not
what you'd expect, I guess. It'sinteresting, but it's not what
Mark Ankucic (20:28):
Oh, yeah, I think for that, specifically, it's
you'd expect.
like if you want to do somethingreally funny, you'd have to do
something like really, reallytongue in cheek, like you'd have
to instantly know what it meansand be like, Ah, you dirty dog.
Sarah Spence (20:43):
Hold up, I mean, bus advertisements. We could be
here all day swapping back gold.But it does feel kind of old
school and not very digital. Notvery now. Besides, I really
wanted to get into some of themore serious topics with Mark
serious topics around thechannels in the B2B space, the
ones that are actually worthamplifying. Because Mark's
(21:06):
constant call for us to stop andthink a little deeper about why
we do what we do, it's worthgetting serious about surely.
Mark Ankucic (21:16):
I'm trying to understand the history of
marketing in its totality,because I've read like a lot of
David Ogilvy and I forgot whowrote Scientific Advertising.
But like all these guys fromback then it's like, there seems
to have been this huge push frommarketing as a business strategy
function, where they'll go outand be like, "Hey, this isn't
(21:39):
selling, you should change thisabout your product, or like, you
should change this about yourentire approach." Marketing was
a strategic function. But whatI've seen, and I can't really
speak to B2C, but I've seen thiseverywhere in B2B is marketing
has turned into essentiallytreated like a pool of interns,
like, "Oh, can you make me agraphic? Or can you do me a
(22:03):
poster?" And it's just like, ifyour marketing team isn't
thinking strategically, andcan't act in a strategic way, or
work on strategic goals, I don'tsee how your business can
succeed, because marketing is...whatever your business strategy
is, it cannot reach success. AndI'll be pretty adamant about
(22:26):
that. I'm not going to pull itback to maybe, but it can't
reach success unless yourmarketing team can actually pull
it off.
From my peers that I have in theB2C space, marketing is like way
more on the table, because youget those instant results. We
(22:47):
did these ads, we got X amountof buys. And then this is the
feedback we're getting. Soyou're in that constant feedback
loop. But I guess, in B2B,because their feedback loop is
so much slower and prioritiesare normally driven by CEOs that
were CFOs that had nothing everto do with people or you've got
(23:09):
your engineering team is thepeople that create things. So
it's like, "Oh, they're the oneswe have to go to for
everything." And it goes back tothat point, again, as well about
people just sort of one day,they're just a marketer. And so
you have this dilution of talentand strategic thinking. And
(23:32):
that's kind of fed into the ideaof marketing is essentially what
you hire the CEOs granddaughterto do because it's not really a
thing. It's just somethinganyone can do.
Sarah Spence (23:44):
Yeah, because anyone can make a Canva tile.
Right?
Mark Ankucic (23:47):
Yeah. Marketing. Yeah.
Sarah Spence (23:49):
Oh, my gosh. So which channels then are most of
your marketing strategiesactually amplifying through at
the moment, is it squarely inthe digital world and paid? What
roles do channels like webinarsand in-person events and
speaking engagements play in theB2B space, because I know that
they've definitely got a roletoo.
Mark Ankucic (24:09):
So at the moment, LinkedIn is normally going to be
like... and I say that with allthe caveats in the world, like
obviously going to find whatworks for you. But LinkedIn is
the place that I see a lot ofpeople succeeding right now. But
again, it goes back to thispoint of like, attribution is
just getting harder and harder.And it goes even further back to
(24:33):
I forgot who it was, I think itwas Ogilvy again, where it's
like 50% of my advertising isworking. I just don't know which
50%. And it's really like thatat the moment where you are,
especially in B2B where you'rejust fighting for that top of
mind where if you're not in theconsideration set, the first
one, two or three things thatsomeone is thinking of when they
(24:57):
need a problem solved like aproduct or if it was offers,
then you have to fight so hardto get in there. And that might
be endless advertising or itmight be, we have to do like so
much more content. And we haveto really like spend thousands
on SEO or whatever it is. Andmost of the time, you have to do
(25:18):
all of these things, just to seeif it works. And you have to do
all of those things to a levelof quality, where you can't turn
around and say, "Okay, so wetried this and it failed, but we
don't know if we tried it wellenough." And the thing that no
one talks about because youcan't put a number on it at the
end of the day, is nearlyeverything is word of mouth. I
(25:42):
haven't had a single consultancygig that didn't come through
word of mouth. I'm probably waytoo lazy on that front now,
because I just haven't done anyother advertising. But it's
like, if you can get word ofmouth, that is 99.9% of your job
done.
Sarah Spence (26:00):
Word of mouth, you are so right. It is so boringly
old school, but it's so true.Word of mouth is everything
until you've probably reachedthat critical point where you
are a known brand. But untilthen, if you're not in the
centre of your business, andyou're not the one people are
(26:22):
talking about, then it's kind ofhard.
Mark Ankucic (26:27):
It's about trust, right? So it comes down to if
I'm going to spend any kind ofmy precious energy or time or
brain space on talking tosomeone, I want to know pretty
damn quickly if this is going tobe worth my time. I wouldn't
take a meeting with anyone formy consultancy anyway that I
haven't had some kind ofrecommendation from. It's like,
(26:49):
"Hey, this is like a greatclient to work from." Great.
That's a load off my mind. I cango into this without having to
ask these questions like to seeif there's any red flags or
whatever. Yeah, that trust fromword of mouth is... I would give
up everything else just for wordof mouth.
Sarah Spence (27:08):
I think I would too. I mean, all the other stuff
is so important, like a goodsales funnel. Obviously a great
website, good social mediapresence, all of that stuff is
critical. But ultimately, mostgrowth in that small to medium
business space, at least itstarts out with and continues
for quite a while on that wordof mouth. I mean, you even look
(27:31):
at like, even companies likeCanva, for instance, it's still
word of mouth there too, eventhough they're so huge, but
people hear about other peopletalking about Canva. And then
they decide to give it a try.And of course, it's important
that when they then go towhatever they have out there,
their website, the tool itself,etc, that that matches to the
(27:52):
experience of what they've heardsomeone talking about. But
ultimately, yeah, it's just socritical, I guess doesn't matter
really what size of business youare.
So tell me what about when thequality isn't there? Or rather,
the choices are just so poorthat it borders on ridiculous
like that baby bus? Or I knowyou've mentioned before we
(28:13):
started recording about theVegemite chicken. How do we come
to a place in the world whereVegemite chicken is even a
thing?
Mark Ankucic (28:20):
Oh, Vegemite chicken. Look, I think the
Vegemite chicken thing wasreally interesting. From the
story I remember, they did someuser testing with some Vegemite
chicken and like, "Oh, it tastestoo much like Vegemite." And
then they took it out to themarket. The user feedback was
"Oh, it doesn't even taste likeVegemite. Why would you do
(28:41):
this?" And the moral of thelesson is why? Why would you
ever do... If you have seen atonne of recipes coming up
trending like oh, you should putVegemite with chicken, totally
make that thing. Apart fromthat, all it really is is a
branding exercise of 'rememberVegemite.' And that might have
(29:04):
worked. That might have workedbe like "Yeah, I remember
Vegemite." The Vegemite cheese,and that eventually Vegemite and
everything else. And it's justlike, stuff like that is when
you have too much money. I don'tthink Vegemite is going
anywhere. But if that was theirlast ever campaign, right? If
they were like, we only have onemore campaign before we go bust,
is that what they would havechosen? No. So everything after
(29:28):
that is just polishing the last1%. And in that space of
polishing like in the degreeslike the very minutia. And I
always try to bring people rightto that point.
Sarah Spence (29:41):
But how do you get to that polished 1%? How do you
go from that big problem tofinding a campaign that's
actually so refined and worksreally well?
Mark Ankucic (29:52):
So a lot of the time, it's just trial and error.
And the thing I tell all myclients and anyone in- house and
all and everyone is, you'repaying tax to go from zero to
one. You're gonna lose money.You cannot guarantee ROI if
(30:13):
everything else hasn't beenworking. If something's working,
you can improve it to get betterROI. But until you know what
actually produces ROI, it's justthrowing money at highly
probable gambles. We know thisproblem, there's a few ways we
can solve it, we're going to tryone by one based on what we
(30:36):
think is going to work to thebest of our ability. And if it
works, great. If it doesn't,we'll try the next thing. It
doesn't always go down well,obviously. But I think it's just
time to be completely honestthat a lot of people can promise
all the ROI and all the resultsin the world. But at the end of
the day, we are taking gambleson things and then we're trying
(30:57):
to improve on the next gamble.
Sarah Spence (30:59):
And that is when you think about it actually what
all marketing is, it's all agamble. Because we're often as
well marketing in channels thatwe don't own. There's
algorithms, there's paid ads,rules are changing all the time.
And even, TV, print, ultimatelynone of those are our own
(31:20):
channels, therefore, they'realways going to be a gamble. And
I guess that's where you say ithas to come back to really
testing and refining andensuring that we're focusing on
refining it down to being ascertain as we can be that the
next gamble is going to pay off.
(31:41):
So tell me then, where do yousee B2B marketing heading in the
future? There's a pretty heftydownturn for everyone in
business at the momentobviously, we're in 2023. Where
do you see marketing going,though? And how's that playing
out for you?
Mark Ankucic (31:54):
Yeah, so it's weird during....as you know the
economy is collapsing around usor whatever. And I've seen so
many ads for marketing. And Ithink this is the first time at
least my living memory that Ican remember an economic
downturn that's been followedwith people actually wanting
marketers, because marketers arenormally the first people to go.
(32:16):
Because people think, we're notgoing to sell, wo why do we need
a marketer? And again, it goesback to like, another thing
David Ogilvy says was like, Ithink it was him anyway, I'm
just gonna keep referencing himanyway. Anyway, so he said that
companies that double down onadvertising marketing during
recessions come out a lotbetter. Because while everyone
(32:38):
has been forgotten, you havethis whole... if everyone else
is leaving the market, you havethis whole new space to get to
front of mind, which is amazing.And it's like, I'm not gonna
give people enough credit tosay, that's what's been
happening. But I think what'shappening now is people are
realising, especially in the B2Bspace, is that it is so hard to
(33:00):
stand out. And the only way tostand out is to improve your
marketing muscles to have somekind of message that resonates
or story that means something,it's a really, really good time
to be an OK marketer, and it's areally, really bad time to be an
excellent marketer. Becausepeople are nervous, they just
(33:21):
want stuff done. So if you cango in there, and you can just
deliver whatever they're askingfor great, but if you go in and
you're trying to go with thatstrategic mindset, you're gonna
have so much more pushback thatyou're gonna have to learn to
deal with, I think would be myadvice anyway.
Sarah Spence (33:39):
Good point. And so looking at B2B marketing in
terms of getting the best bangfor your buck in this economic
climate, do you think B2B canstill have an impact on its own?
Or is it more powerful coupledwith other strategies?
Mark Ankucic (33:51):
So I think this is a big problem I see in B2B
businesses. Again, I'm notreally sure if it's in B2C as
well. But the level of siloingin a lot of these businesses is
dangerous, terrificallydangerous. And that is coupled
with a complete lack of humilityof.... you go into a company,
(34:14):
it's siloed and then devs, orother people in the business
like success people are like,"Oh, why don't you try this?"
It's like, "Why would I?" I'mnot going to tell you how to do
your job. You don't tell me howto do my job. I treat you as an
expert in your field, you treatme as an expert in my field. But
we need to be aligned at somepoint at the start of things
(34:36):
happening, rather than having itstart somewhere and then be
slowly trickled somewhere else.
So I'll give you an example. Iworked for a business where the
solution to everything marketingwas do a blog. So you get these
huge product releases, andthey'll be like, "Oh, have you
done a blog?" I'm like, "Whywould I do a blog?" I've looked
(34:58):
at the previous one, no one'sreading them. You're sending
these people an email to go andread a blog to then try out the
platform. And this is true ofboth customers and non
customers. And the other thingis like, I can't see the
justification for why we builtthis feature. Where was the
initial research? And so onceyou start going back up, or back
(35:20):
back in time to see how is thesedecisions made? It's like, okay,
so if you have brought me inhere, and you said, we want to
make this feature, I would havesaid, "Okay, I can't market this
as you're currently buildingit." Because one, no one's
asking for it. And two, if theywanted to do something like
this, there's 100 competitorsthat are doing it way better
(35:43):
than we are. So it's like, whathook are you giving me in your
building of this product thatallows me to market this
successfully? You need to haveeveryone at the table. But you
also need to realise whatthey're bringing to the table. I
understand if you're a graphicdesigner, your visual knowledge
is going to be way better thanmine. Or if you're an SME, your
(36:06):
knowledge of the area andwhatever is going to be better
than mine. But respecting thatmarketing, well, normally, or
should have a very good idea ofhow to take it to the audience,
what hook to put behind it andactually sort of get people
invested in trying it out. Ithas to be there for everything
to be successful.
Sarah Spence (36:26):
So you're saying that the hook should be thought
of when they're creating theproduct, not at the end, it
should be at the beginning wherethe conversation is had about
creating a product, and why it'sbetter than all those similar
products on the market.
Mark Ankucic (36:40):
Nailed it. And the best way I heard it explained
was from my mentor, and he tooksome product guys was like,
"Look, you tell me what you wantto build, I'll tell you how I
market it. And that is the thingthat you actually build, the
marketed version of your idea."Because it's like, I want to
(37:01):
build an email client. And I waslike, "Okay, I'm gonna go into
the market, I'm gonna see whatpeople are missing." And if I
was like, "Hey, I really want anemail that I can't be marketed
to through," I'd be like, Okay,that is the thing that we're
going to build, because I'mgoing to go after this audience
that wants this very specificthing. And the hook is you will
never be marketed to throughthis email."
Sarah Spence (37:25):
Wait a sec, I can feel a pattern happening here.
To do marketing really well, youhave to spend the time asking
the right questions, testingyour hypothesis to get to that
polished 1%. And that is areally big challenge, especially
when businesses need sales, andthey need activity and marketers
are constantly being questioned.What are you actually producing?
(37:48):
It's like most marketers shouldprobably spend 11 months of the
year asking, "What's our problemand how can we solve it?" But
there's a whole business thatneeds marketing to be on all the
time.
So it's a quandary. Speakingabout producing all year round,
it's probably a good time totalk about chapGPT. I was so
eager to hear what anindependent thinker like Mark
(38:09):
thinks about using AI andmarketing.
Mark Ankucic (38:12):
There's a lot of stuff that I probably could use
it for, but I don't because alot of the time, it's about
asking questions to this thingto try and get an answer. And by
the time I get the answer I wantI could have done it myself to a
lot better degree. Anything thatI would have normally scoured
(38:33):
the internet for like a templatefor I'll use it for that. It's
never going to be a huge part ofmy work day or my work load. But
I do think it's going to producea tonne of extremely mediocre
work, which is great because Iwill look amazing by comparison.
Actually, I think the best thingI use it for is not starting
with a blank page. Because ifI'm trying to write something or
(38:56):
come up with something, mygreatest motivation and I know
how petty this is, but mygreatest motivation is I type a
prompt into chatGPT and spitsout something that's really
garbagely mediocre and I go, "Icould do so much better than
that." And I do it. But reallyit's literally just an ego thing
that gets me kickstarted whereI'm like, "I'm better than this
(39:18):
multi-multi-multi-million dollarprogrammes."
Sarah Spence (39:22):
Well, I mean, it comes down to then do you see it
as a friend that I think you do?Or is it a foe? Or is it a flash
in the pan?
Mark Ankucic (39:30):
It's definitely around forever. It'll be around
forever. And I think if you'reseeing it as a foe, you're gonna
lose, that's just a given. Itwill. It is here. It's here to
stay. You got to make it workfor you. If I need something
reliably mediocre, I will go tochatGPT. If I need something
good, I'll go to a person. It'sthat simple.
Sarah Spence (39:50):
Oh, yeah, I hear you. And it's funny because
Mark Ankucic (40:09):
Absolutely. Because what I predict will
asking this question to everyoneon our podcast, time and time
happen and I won't put any moneyon this, but what will happen
is, you will have a tonne ofwork being produced that's
chatGPT and it doesn't soundquite human. I don't know about
you, but I actually have a realand I'm not putting this on.
When I put in like a copywritingprompts, and I get something
(40:32):
back out. I get a visceral likealmost sick reaction because
it's just uncanny valley, it'sso plastic, and it's kind of
again I'm just hearing so muchabout the value of humaneness.
gross in a way. I don't know whyI react like that. It almost
wretch, it's just awful. I don'tthink anyone will have a
reaction quite as strong as me.But I think we're gonna see a
(40:52):
flood of mediocre work that hasbeen produced way more quickly
that's getting into people'sinboxes or an ads or whatever
else. I think the volume ofthings being produced and its
mediocrity is just gonna go up.And I think at the end of the
That human work will be thequality, that high cost product
day, it's just like, well, thisdoesn't sound real. It doesn't
(41:12):
sound personalised. This doesn'tsound like anything, and my
trust isn't going up. And thatis what is being missed, I think
in this AI conversation is thatyou can produce a million times
faster, that's great. But ifthey don't trust you, they're
never going to use you. No one'sever going to be like, "Oh, you
of the future, that frontier orthe ideas economy. Do you think
(41:33):
managed to send me five emailsin 17 seconds. Oh, my God, I
should totally use you." It'sjust never going to work. And I
guess the last thing and I don'tknow if this is the romantic in
me, but when you get a personthat does something for another
person, it's just a beautifulhuman thing. And you just can't
(41:54):
put a price on it. And you can'treally kind of create that in an
artificial way. And I thinkthat's what's going to happen in
that's true?
the future. So it's just goingto look for those beautiful
human things.
Sarah Spence (42:08):
I love that; a beautiful human thing. And I
guess I could sum up all ofMark's thinking around marketing
as very human. Whether it'stalking about what products we
should make in the first place,or what people are doing when
they're interacting with thatcontent. But that's the polished
1%, isn't it? That beautifulhuman thing that connects us to
(42:29):
the core of other beautifulhuman things. It seems like
we're finishing up a pretty longway from B2B marketing. But
that's the ride we've takentogether and I'm so glad you're
here for it.
Thanks for joining me on thisjourney. If you want to stay
rebellious in how you practicemarketing, how you show up in
(42:50):
your workplace, and how you liveyour life, please subscribe to
the Content Rebels wherever youlisten to your podcasts. This
podcast was recorded on Awabakaland Darkinjung country. Produced
by Pod and Pen Productions.
This episode was supposed to be about B2B
marketing. And it is, but it'salso about whose opinion matters
when you buy something, whymarketing hasn't changed since
the dark ages, and well,Vegemite chicken. Welcome to the
wonderful mind of marketingproblem solver, Mark Ankucic.
(00:22):
Hi, I'm Sarah Spence, I grew aContent Agency from just me to
20 people inside two years. Soyou'd think I had all my shit
together. And even though I tryto come at everything with a
rebellious curiosity, I've beenso focused on growing this thing
that I'm a bit behind in thetrends. Join me on this journey
(00:42):
to find out what's actuallyhappening in the world of
marketing. Welcome to theContent Rebels.
Creating content is really aboutworking out who you're speaking
to, and what they want to hear.Right? Well, maybe. Mark Ankucic
is a B2B marketing consultant.And he's been here in the
marketing game for over adecade. And somewhere in there,
(01:04):
he stopped doing exactly what hewas told to do, and started
doing something that made moresense to him, and probably to a
lot of other people. So Markworks in marketing, but his
profession is actually problemsolving. His favourite clients
are those that haven't reallybeen doing any marketing,
because they have the most funproblems to solve. He's got a
(01:26):
dry wit and doesn't mind it whenI get his name wrong.
Mark Ankucic (01:29):
So back in the old country would have been Ankucic,
but we changed it to Ankucichere because we thought it'd be
easy to say, I don't thinkthat's quite washed out.
Sarah Spence (01:37):
And even though I don't really know how to say his
surname, Mark's mate of mine.B2B marketing is his thing. So
it makes sense to start bygetting his interpretation of
how B2B marketing is faringright now. But his response
wasn't exactly what I wasexpecting.
Mark Ankucic (01:54):
I would say it's a nightmare. It's just gotten
harder and harder over the last,I would say even couple of
years, attribution is gettingway more difficult to actually
pin down to any form ofaccuracy. There's a billion
tools, there's so many competingpriorities from businesses,
(02:15):
there's a completemisunderstanding, sometimes
internally of how content'ssupposed to be or there's a
misunderstanding of who theaudience is, there's a lot of
things need to go right formarketing to work in a B2B
organisation. And a lot of thetimes it's not there. So it is a
(02:35):
nightmare.
Sarah Spence (02:36):
Yeah. Okay. And so, do you feel like then that
B2B has even changed much? Or isit just that marketing in
general that's a nightmare thesedays?
Mark Ankucic (02:46):
I think B2C has the luxury that you're only ever
really talking to people thatneed to buy things without too
much buy in from other people.Sure, it does happen. But when
you're a business talking toanother business, the first
thing is, when tech SaaS and allthat stuff started was new,
(03:09):
people looking for tools, theythought tools could change their
world, solve all their problems.But now, the areas flooded. And
this goes outside of tech Saasas well just there's endless
services, there's endlessagencies, endless everyone
promising everything. And soit's really hard now to gain
that trust and to sort of standout in that crowd. So yeah, it's
(03:33):
definitely changed a lot in B2B,it probably has changed a bit as
it haven't been in B2C for alittle while now. But I can't
imagine it's changed that muchcomparatively.
I guess the other thing is,well, it's just defining what
the actual problem you're facingis. So a lot of companies that I
consult for, I've worked in,they're like, "Oh, my God, we
(03:55):
have to do X." And I was like,"Okay, well, why do you have to
do X?" I've seen everyone elsedo it. It's talk of the town.
I've heard people get greatresults from doing this thing.
And it's like, "Well, is itactually going to work for us?"
And that is the real problemthat any business in the B2B
(04:16):
space should be really focusingon is like, "What problem are we
trying to solve and can it besolved through marketing
efforts?" If it can be solvedthrough marketing efforts, what
should those efforts be?
Sarah Spence (04:27):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, do businesses really
sell to other businesses, or isit more people to people? Is
that a more accuraterepresentation? Is B2B actually
different to B2C? Because frommy perspective, I feel like it
really is about people. We are abusiness but we are people
within a business selling topeople who are working for
(04:49):
another business or brand. I'mnot Content Copywriting, selling
to Koala or Modi Bodi. I amSarah and I am speaking to and
trying to engage with theindividuals within those
businesses, does that make anysense?
Mark Ankucic (05:04):
Well, I think it really depends on the question
of is there a buying committeeon the other side, and most
often, there is for B2B,whatever it is. So if you are a
big agency that's going after abig client, or maybe you're
working for government, you haveto go through so many loopholes,
(05:25):
you got to make sure yourprivacy policy is right, you got
to make sure data is stored inthe right way, you've got to
talk to x, y, z person in thereto make sure that your service
or product or whatever it is,can actually be used with data,
B2C, or whatever you want tocall it. This sort of more
direct person-to-person thing,most of the time, there's going
(05:47):
to be your business or yourmarketer straight to that
person. But in reality, itdoesn't always wash out like
that. Because if I wanted to buya car today, I would need to
check in with my wife. That issomething that would have to
happen. But if I wanted to buy atool for my business, my
(06:09):
consulting business, I wouldn'thave to ask anyone, that is
straight B2B. You can advertiseto me like a single person. And
that can work for in house aswell. If your tool, whatever it
is you're selling only cost like25 bucks a month or something,
you are selling person toperson. But yeah, so it's just
(06:31):
about you got to ask, like, it'salways gonna be people to people
or person to person. But it justdepends on how many people are
on the other side. And that isthe question you should be
really asking, who actuallyneeds to buy into this thing for
me to get that yes at the end ofthe day.
I guess the best example is withmy nieces and nephews, my
(06:52):
sister-in-law, brother-in-law,they're like, "Please, just
don't buy us any more stuff. Wehave stuff, we have so much
stuff." So it's like, oh, theycan advertise, this is for three
to 12, this is for whatever,this is made out of best
plastic that helps rainforestfrogs live again, or whatever it
is. But at the end of the day,people just don't need more
(07:12):
stuff, it's like, "Okay, do Ineed to go for experiences then?
Or do I need to really justifythis stuff is for something
other than just having?" Andthen you're asking the
grandparents, you're going tosee what they're getting.
There's just all these humaninteractions that you really
need to take into account withwhatever you're selling.
Sarah Spence (07:35):
Yeah. Oh, my God, that totally makes sense,
especially when you say it thatway, like talking about this
buying committee usingchildren's presence as that
example. But do you think thatmarketers in general, though,
really think it through in thatway, when they're making
campaigns, when they're tryingto make content? I'm not sure
any of us really do.
Mark Ankucic (07:55):
Really short on that question. I don't think
most marketers think.
Sarah Spence (08:00):
I think that's kind of true, too, sadly. But I
think we all try to think. Ithink that is our jobs, right?
Is to try and think but I don'tknow, did it change at some
point? Or what process should webe following? Where do you think
it's going wrong?
Mark Ankucic (08:18):
I'll be straight. I guess the problem that I see
in the marketing space, andprobably even further in the B2B
space, because you need to do somuch more thinking is that the
entry level to being a marketeris nil. You can just be a
marketer tomorrow, if anyonereally wants to be, you could do
like a free course or whateverand you're roughly a marketer.
(08:40):
No one's gonna ask for yourmarketing certificate or get
your mentor to come in and belike, "Yes, this is a marketer
now." And so you just getregular people. And of course,
in any profession, there's like,not great people at that
profession. So you just getpeople in who don't think about
(09:02):
problems, and you don't thinkabout how people actually work
in the real world. That is morethan anything else, more than
being able to do Facebook ads,being able to do copy, being
able to whatever it is. If youdo not have that drive to go
why, like what is happening tomake....what is happening, what
(09:23):
is going on, what is actuallyhappening in people's minds and
in the decisions and on theground? There's never going to
be quality marketing on theother side of that.
Sarah Spence (09:33):
Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right, that you need
to have that drive to ask why.But what sort of strategies then
do you draw on to be able tocraft and execute those wins for
your clients?
Mark Ankucic (09:47):
Yeah. Literally it's like, what is the problem?
That is it. That is all I'mtalking about. I banned the use
of word strategy, tactics. Idon't talk about any of that
stuff, I go in and..what are youtrying to achieve and what is
actually stopping you fromachieving that? And that's
anywhere; it might be awareness,it might be like, I don't think
(10:10):
we're getting enough signups, itmight be we can't really sell
this one thing, or we don't knowhow to do messaging for our
company, whatever it is. Butit's just finding what they
think the problem is, finding ifthat actually relates to what
I'm seeing in the data, and thenwe go on from there. And I
think, what normally happens inthe consulting and my consulting
(10:33):
space anyway, is I'll get pulledin for one thing, but it'll turn
out it's like a dozen or moreother things where if you make
these tweaks, then the problemthat you think you have, will
actually become a problem thatyou can solve.
Sarah Spence (10:49):
And so how do you walk a client through that? Are
they okay come with you on thatjourney or do you tend to get
pushback?
Mark Ankucic (10:55):
Depends. It's hit and miss, it's like with
anything really. I mean, you getsome people who are like super
adamant about this is the thingwe need to do. I was talking
with a potential client once andhe's like, "Oh, we need more
case studies. So we need morecase studies for the sales
team." And I'm like, "Alright,okay, why?" And he's like, "Ah,
(11:16):
our other market has been doingthem, she's been doing a great
job, but she just doesn't havethe time to produce these
things." I'm like, "Oh, how doyou know they work?" And he was
like, "Oh, it's not really aboutwhether they work or not, it's
about the sales team havingthem" And I'm like, "Why would
you do that?" I didn't want tocharge this guy. And I actually
told him, "I don't want tocharge you for something I don't
(11:38):
know it's going to work, becauseotherwise, I'm just giving you
stuff." And yeah, we didn't goahead with work, which was fine.
Obviously, he had his ideas, butyou get other people and I'd be
like, "Look, I know you've justspent a ton of money on a
website refresh and a copyrefresh but this is not good.
This is not helping." And theygo, yeah, sure. If that's what
(11:59):
you say, I trust you, let's gowith it.
Sarah Spence (12:01):
But they're saying yes to that because that's the
quality of what you're offering,though, isn't it?
Mark Ankucic (12:06):
Yeah. So if you're not offering quality, and this
is where we can go into likesuch a rabbit hole, like such
philosophical whirlwind is like,what does quality end up being.
Because I've worked with someclients, and I hate this, but
Sarah Spence (12:23):
But that's a totally integrity led approach.
they'll ask for something that'snot really their problem.
That's a very valid, beautifulhuman way to be.
They're asking you to solve it.If you do solve it, you haven't
really done anything, they'renot going to get anything from
it. But you've made them worryless, or they think they have
what they need. And it's justlike...and that honestly, it
(12:44):
doesn't keep me awake at night.But it is something I think
about a lot, which is like,"Have I done a good thing here?"
I don't know. If I was a doctoror a therapist or something like
obviously, you'd say no, don'tdo that, they need to hear the
absolute truth. But where doesthat filter down to marketing? I
(13:04):
don't know. I think I thinkabout that way too much to be
honest. And it's gotten me introuble so many times. But yeah,
that's how I approach it anyway.
Mark Ankucic (13:22):
I don't even know at this point. I just think
like, I get a lot of commentsfrom both in house, you're very
set in your ways. And I'm justlike, "Look, I just don't want
to... you know what, if I wantedto do stuff and I really didn't
care, I'd go work forpharmaceuticals, because they
pay a fortune. And I don't wantto so where's the line?
Sarah Spence (13:49):
Time to press pause for a second. Mark's
right. We should always bechecking back to the main
purpose to what makes sense. Ilike to think that I always do
that. But you and I, we're in anindustry that has just exploded
in its potential in terms of itsimpact, in terms of its scope.
And therefore, in terms of whatyou need to keep across. But how
(14:11):
did we get here and why do somemarketers want to toe the line
and tick off those KPIs whileothers want to do anything but?
Are we back playing a moral tugof war again? And just how did
Mark end up here to a place inhis career where he does
question why we all do what wedo?
Mark Ankucic (14:29):
Yeah, so I never wanted to be a marketer. I just
thought of complete scumbags.And I guess like, part of that
was the first marketers I everworked with were just like very
party hard kind of, I don'tknow, they were unique in their
way. And also, I thought, theseguys are really smart. And you
(14:51):
see Mad Men and you see all thiskind of stuff. And you just
think, "Oh, these marketers,these people are just so smart
and they've got this gung holifestyle." I was like, "That's
just not for me." It just feelsreally scummy and shady. And
then I ended up getting acontract writing gig with
government. And then I got arecruiter call me and say, "Hey,
(15:14):
do you know what SEO is?" And Iwas like, "Can't even spell it."
He goes, "Learn SEO, and I'llget you this job." So I did. And
I was like, "Hey, this is reallyinteresting. This makes complete
sense." I got a job as an SEOmanager. And then I got a job as
content manager. And then Ibecame a marketing enablement
guy in the same way that wassales enablement. And I just
(15:36):
kept learning. And I just keptpushing. And I kept finding what
we were really doing at the endof the day was like, you have to
tell the truth. That's what Ikind of fell in love with. You
have to find creative ways andinteresting ways to tell that
truth and get in touch withpeople and genuinely like...
even if it's like a mediocreproduct, as long as it's helping
(15:57):
their lives, you're doing a goodthing. So it just started
ringing more and more true tome. And I kept reading books, I
kept doing courses. And thenpart of that was like leading
teams or by creating strategies.And I guess, I let go of the
idea that I wasn't smart enough,or I wasn't good enough or that
other people knew better thanme, because like, as I was going
(16:21):
through to that earlier point, Iask why. And I keep asking why
until I feel like I have a goodenough handle on the situation
to do whatever it is and justlike letting go of arts, it's
not for me, and just being like,yeah, this is who I am and I can
do this. And that's how I got towhere I am.
Sarah Spence (16:41):
So I feel like you've come from a philosophy
viewpoint on this. It's moreabout understanding humans,
rather than just ticking off howto write a paid marketing
campaign, which I guess in someways, is the thing that you can
learn. But it's not the thingthat's in you that will make you
a great marketer.
Mark Ankucic (17:00):
You've nailed it so well. That is absolutely spot
on. I've met some.... And Ihonestly think I don't like how
marketing teams are structuredfor the most part, because you
need people who can think likethat. And then you need people
who can do the actual stuff. Ican do Facebook and Google ads.
(17:20):
I can't do them particularlywell. But I've met people who
can do them really well as inlike the setting up the
campaigns and whatnot, but howthey actually do ads is
terrible. And that's becausethey're really good at technical
side, but they don't get people.Any day of the week, I'd rather
(17:40):
have someone who questions whyand gets people and then learns
that other stuff, even if it'snot as good as someone else,
then have someone who justdoesn't get people and can do
all the technical gizmos.
Sarah Spence (17:54):
Yeah, that's a really good way to look at it.
But tell me why then did youchoose to go into B2B marketing
specifically? I mean, youobviously get people and you're
someone who obsessively likes toask why. Is that what led you
there? What was the drawcardultimately?
Mark Ankucic (18:13):
It's way more challenging, it's just way more
fun. I've done a bit of B2C veryearly in my career. I don't
know, it probably looks a lotmore flashy from the outside,
but it's just, I think with alot of B2C stuff, there's just
so much more wriggle room. Andthe reason I know this is
(18:35):
because I've seen a lot of B2Cmarketing, and it wouldn't
survive in the B2B space. Youcouldn't do the kind of ads that
you see going around for... Ithink the best example was this
dog food brand on this bus imageof this dog food brand. I had a
(18:58):
picture of a man, athletic mancatching the ball and said, "If
he was a dog, he would be eatingour dog food." But it's like, if
it's on a bus and it's goingpast and you really only have
about three to four seconds tocomprehend what's going on all
you really see is good-lookingdude could do catching a ball
and then dog food next to him.You're just like, "Are we eating
dog food now? What is going on?"
(19:21):
In the B2B space if you didthat, it's the fallout, it's
just so much worse. Because Idon't think the dog food is any
worse because of it. If you dothat in the B2B space, you're
like, "These guys sound likeidiots." This is not good work.
I'm not sure if I'm gonna gowith them. So it's like the push
for quality is just so muchhigher and I don't know. I just
(19:45):
love that challenge aspects.
Sarah Spence (19:47):
Oh, yeah, I totally get that. There's a bit
of a segway but silly story.There's a bus here where I live
that is all pink and it has allof these cute Anne Geddes babies
on it, right? And every timewe're in the car, my girls are
like, "Oh, there's the baby bus,there's the baby bus." And I
always look at it and think thatit's a bus for like a baby
(20:09):
photographer, because that'swhat it's so stylized. That's
what it looks like. It'sactually a bus for an
obstetrician gynaecologist,which fair enough, he delivers
babies, I get that, but it'sjust, I don't know, it's so not
what you'd expect, I guess. It'sinteresting, but it's not what
Mark Ankucic (20:28):
Oh, yeah, I think for that, specifically, it's
you'd expect.
like if you want to do somethingreally funny, you'd have to do
something like really, reallytongue in cheek, like you'd have
to instantly know what it meansand be like, Ah, you dirty dog.
Sarah Spence (20:43):
Hold up, I mean, bus advertisements. We could be
here all day swapping back gold.But it does feel kind of old
school and not very digital. Notvery now. Besides, I really
wanted to get into some of themore serious topics with Mark
serious topics around thechannels in the B2B space, the
ones that are actually worthamplifying. Because Mark's
(21:06):
constant call for us to stop andthink a little deeper about why
we do what we do, it's worthgetting serious about surely.
Mark Ankucic (21:16):
I'm trying to understand the history of
marketing in its totality,because I've read like a lot of
David Ogilvy and I forgot whowrote Scientific Advertising.
But like all these guys fromback then it's like, there seems
to have been this huge push frommarketing as a business strategy
function, where they'll go outand be like, "Hey, this isn't
(21:39):
selling, you should change thisabout your product, or like, you
should change this about yourentire approach." Marketing was
a strategic function. But whatI've seen, and I can't really
speak to B2C, but I've seen thiseverywhere in B2B is marketing
has turned into essentiallytreated like a pool of interns,
like, "Oh, can you make me agraphic? Or can you do me a
(22:03):
poster?" And it's just like, ifyour marketing team isn't
thinking strategically, andcan't act in a strategic way, or
work on strategic goals, I don'tsee how your business can
succeed, because marketing is...whatever your business strategy
is, it cannot reach success. AndI'll be pretty adamant about
(22:26):
that. I'm not going to pull itback to maybe, but it can't
reach success unless yourmarketing team can actually pull
it off.
From my peers that I have in theB2C space, marketing is like way
more on the table, because youget those instant results. We
(22:47):
did these ads, we got X amountof buys. And then this is the
feedback we're getting. Soyou're in that constant feedback
loop. But I guess, in B2B,because their feedback loop is
so much slower and prioritiesare normally driven by CEOs that
were CFOs that had nothing everto do with people or you've got
(23:09):
your engineering team is thepeople that create things. So
it's like, "Oh, they're the oneswe have to go to for
everything." And it goes back tothat point, again, as well about
people just sort of one day,they're just a marketer. And so
you have this dilution of talentand strategic thinking. And
(23:32):
that's kind of fed into the ideaof marketing is essentially what
you hire the CEOs granddaughterto do because it's not really a
thing. It's just somethinganyone can do.
Sarah Spence (23:44):
Yeah, because anyone can make a Canva tile.
Right?
Mark Ankucic (23:47):
Yeah. Marketing. Yeah.
Sarah Spence (23:49):
Oh, my gosh. So which channels then are most of
your marketing strategiesactually amplifying through at
the moment, is it squarely inthe digital world and paid? What
roles do channels like webinarsand in-person events and
speaking engagements play in theB2B space, because I know that
they've definitely got a roletoo.
Mark Ankucic (24:09):
So at the moment, LinkedIn is normally going to be
like... and I say that with allthe caveats in the world, like
obviously going to find whatworks for you. But LinkedIn is
the place that I see a lot ofpeople succeeding right now. But
again, it goes back to thispoint of like, attribution is
just getting harder and harder.And it goes even further back to
(24:33):
I forgot who it was, I think itwas Ogilvy again, where it's
like 50% of my advertising isworking. I just don't know which
50%. And it's really like thatat the moment where you are,
especially in B2B where you'rejust fighting for that top of
mind where if you're not in theconsideration set, the first
one, two or three things thatsomeone is thinking of when they
(24:57):
need a problem solved like aproduct or if it was offers,
then you have to fight so hardto get in there. And that might
be endless advertising or itmight be, we have to do like so
much more content. And we haveto really like spend thousands
on SEO or whatever it is. Andmost of the time, you have to do
(25:18):
all of these things, just to seeif it works. And you have to do
all of those things to a levelof quality, where you can't turn
around and say, "Okay, so wetried this and it failed, but we
don't know if we tried it wellenough." And the thing that no
one talks about because youcan't put a number on it at the
end of the day, is nearlyeverything is word of mouth. I
(25:42):
haven't had a single consultancygig that didn't come through
word of mouth. I'm probably waytoo lazy on that front now,
because I just haven't done anyother advertising. But it's
like, if you can get word ofmouth, that is 99.9% of your job
done.
Sarah Spence (26:00):
Word of mouth, you are so right. It is so boringly
old school, but it's so true.Word of mouth is everything
until you've probably reachedthat critical point where you
are a known brand. But untilthen, if you're not in the
centre of your business, andyou're not the one people are
(26:22):
talking about, then it's kind ofhard.
Mark Ankucic (26:27):
It's about trust, right? So it comes down to if
I'm going to spend any kind ofmy precious energy or time or
brain space on talking tosomeone, I want to know pretty
damn quickly if this is going tobe worth my time. I wouldn't
take a meeting with anyone formy consultancy anyway that I
haven't had some kind ofrecommendation from. It's like,
(26:49):
"Hey, this is like a greatclient to work from." Great.
That's a load off my mind. I cango into this without having to
ask these questions like to seeif there's any red flags or
whatever. Yeah, that trust fromword of mouth is... I would give
up everything else just for wordof mouth.
Sarah Spence (27:08):
I think I would too. I mean, all the other stuff
is so important, like a goodsales funnel. Obviously a great
website, good social mediapresence, all of that stuff is
critical. But ultimately, mostgrowth in that small to medium
business space, at least itstarts out with and continues
for quite a while on that wordof mouth. I mean, you even look
(27:31):
at like, even companies likeCanva, for instance, it's still
word of mouth there too, eventhough they're so huge, but
people hear about other peopletalking about Canva. And then
they decide to give it a try.And of course, it's important
that when they then go towhatever they have out there,
their website, the tool itself,etc, that that matches to the
(27:52):
experience of what they've heardsomeone talking about. But
ultimately, yeah, it's just socritical, I guess doesn't matter
really what size of business youare.
So tell me what about when thequality isn't there? Or rather,
the choices are just so poorthat it borders on ridiculous
like that baby bus? Or I knowyou've mentioned before we
(28:13):
started recording about theVegemite chicken. How do we come
to a place in the world whereVegemite chicken is even a
thing?
Mark Ankucic (28:20):
Oh, Vegemite chicken. Look, I think the
Vegemite chicken thing wasreally interesting. From the
story I remember, they did someuser testing with some Vegemite
chicken and like, "Oh, it tastestoo much like Vegemite." And
then they took it out to themarket. The user feedback was
"Oh, it doesn't even taste likeVegemite. Why would you do
(28:41):
this?" And the moral of thelesson is why? Why would you
ever do... If you have seen atonne of recipes coming up
trending like oh, you should putVegemite with chicken, totally
make that thing. Apart fromthat, all it really is is a
branding exercise of 'rememberVegemite.' And that might have
(29:04):
worked. That might have workedbe like "Yeah, I remember
Vegemite." The Vegemite cheese,and that eventually Vegemite and
everything else. And it's justlike, stuff like that is when
you have too much money. I don'tthink Vegemite is going
anywhere. But if that was theirlast ever campaign, right? If
they were like, we only have onemore campaign before we go bust,
is that what they would havechosen? No. So everything after
(29:28):
that is just polishing the last1%. And in that space of
polishing like in the degreeslike the very minutia. And I
always try to bring people rightto that point.
Sarah Spence (29:41):
But how do you get to that polished 1%? How do you
go from that big problem tofinding a campaign that's
actually so refined and worksreally well?
Mark Ankucic (29:52):
So a lot of the time, it's just trial and error.
And the thing I tell all myclients and anyone in- house and
all and everyone is, you'repaying tax to go from zero to
one. You're gonna lose money.You cannot guarantee ROI if
(30:13):
everything else hasn't beenworking. If something's working,
you can improve it to get betterROI. But until you know what
actually produces ROI, it's justthrowing money at highly
probable gambles. We know thisproblem, there's a few ways we
can solve it, we're going to tryone by one based on what we
(30:36):
think is going to work to thebest of our ability. And if it
works, great. If it doesn't,we'll try the next thing. It
doesn't always go down well,obviously. But I think it's just
time to be completely honestthat a lot of people can promise
all the ROI and all the resultsin the world. But at the end of
the day, we are taking gambleson things and then we're trying
(30:57):
to improve on the next gamble.
Sarah Spence (30:59):
And that is when you think about it actually what
all marketing is, it's all agamble. Because we're often as
well marketing in channels thatwe don't own. There's
algorithms, there's paid ads,rules are changing all the time.
And even, TV, print, ultimatelynone of those are our own
(31:20):
channels, therefore, they'realways going to be a gamble. And
I guess that's where you say ithas to come back to really
testing and refining andensuring that we're focusing on
refining it down to being ascertain as we can be that the
next gamble is going to pay off.
(31:41):
So tell me then, where do yousee B2B marketing heading in the
future? There's a pretty heftydownturn for everyone in
business at the momentobviously, we're in 2023. Where
do you see marketing going,though? And how's that playing
out for you?
Mark Ankucic (31:54):
Yeah, so it's weird during....as you know the
economy is collapsing around usor whatever. And I've seen so
many ads for marketing. And Ithink this is the first time at
least my living memory that Ican remember an economic
downturn that's been followedwith people actually wanting
marketers, because marketers arenormally the first people to go.
(32:16):
Because people think, we're notgoing to sell, wo why do we need
a marketer? And again, it goesback to like, another thing
David Ogilvy says was like, Ithink it was him anyway, I'm
just gonna keep referencing himanyway. Anyway, so he said that
companies that double down onadvertising marketing during
recessions come out a lotbetter. Because while everyone
(32:38):
has been forgotten, you havethis whole... if everyone else
is leaving the market, you havethis whole new space to get to
front of mind, which is amazing.And it's like, I'm not gonna
give people enough credit tosay, that's what's been
happening. But I think what'shappening now is people are
realising, especially in the B2Bspace, is that it is so hard to
(33:00):
stand out. And the only way tostand out is to improve your
marketing muscles to have somekind of message that resonates
or story that means something,it's a really, really good time
to be an OK marketer, and it's areally, really bad time to be an
excellent marketer. Becausepeople are nervous, they just
(33:21):
want stuff done. So if you cango in there, and you can just
deliver whatever they're askingfor great, but if you go in and
you're trying to go with thatstrategic mindset, you're gonna
have so much more pushback thatyou're gonna have to learn to
deal with, I think would be myadvice anyway.
Sarah Spence (33:39):
Good point. And so looking at B2B marketing in
terms of getting the best bangfor your buck in this economic
climate, do you think B2B canstill have an impact on its own?
Or is it more powerful coupledwith other strategies?
Mark Ankucic (33:51):
So I think this is a big problem I see in B2B
businesses. Again, I'm notreally sure if it's in B2C as
well. But the level of siloingin a lot of these businesses is
dangerous, terrificallydangerous. And that is coupled
with a complete lack of humilityof.... you go into a company,
(34:14):
it's siloed and then devs, orother people in the business
like success people are like,"Oh, why don't you try this?"
It's like, "Why would I?" I'mnot going to tell you how to do
your job. You don't tell me howto do my job. I treat you as an
expert in your field, you treatme as an expert in my field. But
we need to be aligned at somepoint at the start of things
(34:36):
happening, rather than having itstart somewhere and then be
slowly trickled somewhere else.
So I'll give you an example. Iworked for a business where the
solution to everything marketingwas do a blog. So you get these
huge product releases, andthey'll be like, "Oh, have you
done a blog?" I'm like, "Whywould I do a blog?" I've looked
(34:58):
at the previous one, no one'sreading them. You're sending
these people an email to go andread a blog to then try out the
platform. And this is true ofboth customers and non
customers. And the other thingis like, I can't see the
justification for why we builtthis feature. Where was the
initial research? And so onceyou start going back up, or back
(35:20):
back in time to see how is thesedecisions made? It's like, okay,
so if you have brought me inhere, and you said, we want to
make this feature, I would havesaid, "Okay, I can't market this
as you're currently buildingit." Because one, no one's
asking for it. And two, if theywanted to do something like
this, there's 100 competitorsthat are doing it way better
(35:43):
than we are. So it's like, whathook are you giving me in your
building of this product thatallows me to market this
successfully? You need to haveeveryone at the table. But you
also need to realise whatthey're bringing to the table. I
understand if you're a graphicdesigner, your visual knowledge
is going to be way better thanmine. Or if you're an SME, your
(36:06):
knowledge of the area andwhatever is going to be better
than mine. But respecting thatmarketing, well, normally, or
should have a very good idea ofhow to take it to the audience,
what hook to put behind it andactually sort of get people
invested in trying it out. Ithas to be there for everything
to be successful.
Sarah Spence (36:26):
So you're saying that the hook should be thought
of when they're creating theproduct, not at the end, it
should be at the beginning wherethe conversation is had about
creating a product, and why it'sbetter than all those similar
products on the market.
Mark Ankucic (36:40):
Nailed it. And the best way I heard it explained
was from my mentor, and he tooksome product guys was like,
"Look, you tell me what you wantto build, I'll tell you how I
market it. And that is the thingthat you actually build, the
marketed version of your idea."Because it's like, I want to
(37:01):
build an email client. And I waslike, "Okay, I'm gonna go into
the market, I'm gonna see whatpeople are missing." And if I
was like, "Hey, I really want anemail that I can't be marketed
to through," I'd be like, Okay,that is the thing that we're
going to build, because I'mgoing to go after this audience
that wants this very specificthing. And the hook is you will
never be marketed to throughthis email."
Sarah Spence (37:25):
Wait a sec, I can feel a pattern happening here.
To do marketing really well, youhave to spend the time asking
the right questions, testingyour hypothesis to get to that
polished 1%. And that is areally big challenge, especially
when businesses need sales, andthey need activity and marketers
are constantly being questioned.What are you actually producing?
(37:48):
It's like most marketers shouldprobably spend 11 months of the
year asking, "What's our problemand how can we solve it?" But
there's a whole business thatneeds marketing to be on all the
time.
So it's a quandary. Speakingabout producing all year round,
it's probably a good time totalk about chapGPT. I was so
eager to hear what anindependent thinker like Mark
(38:09):
thinks about using AI andmarketing.
Mark Ankucic (38:12):
There's a lot of stuff that I probably could use
it for, but I don't because alot of the time, it's about
asking questions to this thingto try and get an answer. And by
the time I get the answer I wantI could have done it myself to a
lot better degree. Anything thatI would have normally scoured
(38:33):
the internet for like a templatefor I'll use it for that. It's
never going to be a huge part ofmy work day or my work load. But
I do think it's going to producea tonne of extremely mediocre
work, which is great because Iwill look amazing by comparison.
Actually, I think the best thingI use it for is not starting
with a blank page. Because ifI'm trying to write something or
(38:56):
come up with something, mygreatest motivation and I know
how petty this is, but mygreatest motivation is I type a
prompt into chatGPT and spitsout something that's really
garbagely mediocre and I go, "Icould do so much better than
that." And I do it. But reallyit's literally just an ego thing
that gets me kickstarted whereI'm like, "I'm better than this
(39:18):
multi-multi-multi-million dollarprogrammes."
Sarah Spence (39:22):
Well, I mean, it comes down to then do you see it
as a friend that I think you do?Or is it a foe? Or is it a flash
in the pan?
Mark Ankucic (39:30):
It's definitely around forever. It'll be around
forever. And I think if you'reseeing it as a foe, you're gonna
lose, that's just a given. Itwill. It is here. It's here to
stay. You got to make it workfor you. If I need something
reliably mediocre, I will go tochatGPT. If I need something
good, I'll go to a person. It'sthat simple.
Sarah Spence (39:50):
Oh, yeah, I hear you. And it's funny because
Mark Ankucic (40:09):
Absolutely. Because what I predict will
asking this question to everyoneon our podcast, time and time
happen and I won't put any moneyon this, but what will happen
is, you will have a tonne ofwork being produced that's
chatGPT and it doesn't soundquite human. I don't know about
you, but I actually have a realand I'm not putting this on.
When I put in like a copywritingprompts, and I get something
(40:32):
back out. I get a visceral likealmost sick reaction because
it's just uncanny valley, it'sso plastic, and it's kind of
again I'm just hearing so muchabout the value of humaneness.
gross in a way. I don't know whyI react like that. It almost
wretch, it's just awful. I don'tthink anyone will have a
reaction quite as strong as me.But I think we're gonna see a
(40:52):
flood of mediocre work that hasbeen produced way more quickly
that's getting into people'sinboxes or an ads or whatever
else. I think the volume ofthings being produced and its
mediocrity is just gonna go up.And I think at the end of the
That human work will be thequality, that high cost product
day, it's just like, well, thisdoesn't sound real. It doesn't
(41:12):
sound personalised. This doesn'tsound like anything, and my
trust isn't going up. And thatis what is being missed, I think
in this AI conversation is thatyou can produce a million times
faster, that's great. But ifthey don't trust you, they're
never going to use you. No one'sever going to be like, "Oh, you
of the future, that frontier orthe ideas economy. Do you think
(41:33):
managed to send me five emailsin 17 seconds. Oh, my God, I
should totally use you." It'sjust never going to work. And I
guess the last thing and I don'tknow if this is the romantic in
me, but when you get a personthat does something for another
person, it's just a beautifulhuman thing. And you just can't
(41:54):
put a price on it. And you can'treally kind of create that in an
artificial way. And I thinkthat's what's going to happen in
that's true?
the future. So it's just goingto look for those beautiful
human things.
Sarah Spence (42:08):
I love that; a beautiful human thing. And I
guess I could sum up all ofMark's thinking around marketing
as very human. Whether it'stalking about what products we
should make in the first place,or what people are doing when
they're interacting with thatcontent. But that's the polished
1%, isn't it? That beautifulhuman thing that connects us to
(42:29):
the core of other beautifulhuman things. It seems like
we're finishing up a pretty longway from B2B marketing. But
that's the ride we've takentogether and I'm so glad you're
here for it.
Thanks for joining me on thisjourney. If you want to stay
rebellious in how you practicemarketing, how you show up in
(42:50):
your workplace, and how you liveyour life, please subscribe to
the Content Rebels wherever youlisten to your podcasts. This
podcast was recorded on Awabakaland Darkinjung country. Produced
by Pod and Pen Productions.
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