August 2, 2023 • 42 mins
In the first ever episode of The Content Rebels you’ll meet CEO of The Digital Picnic, Cherie Clonan. Cherie is a proud Autistic leader, who has forged her way in the digital marketing space by championing people over profit, even if she does ‘take the hits’ because of it.
In this episode you’ll learn:
- Why paid marketing does not solve everything
- The challenges and strengths of Autism and ADHD in content marketing workplaces
- How agency leaders approach people and profit and what that means to their bottom line
- Why ChatGPT is not about to take your job
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Spence (00:02):
Cherie Clonan isn't your typical agency owner.
By her own admission, she'sradically different. She runs
her business with both her headand her heart, and she has a
deep fascination with people. Sohow did this proudly autistic
leader come to create thesometimes nicest place on the
internet? Let's find out.
(00:24):
Hi, I'm Sarah Spence. I grew aContent Agency from just me to
20 people inside two years. Soyou'd think I'd have my shit
together. And even though I tryto come at everything with a
rebellious curiosity, I've beenso focused on growing this
thing, that I'm a bit behind inthe trends. Join me on this
(00:45):
journey to find out what'sactually happening in the world
of marketing. Welcome to TheContent Rebels.
Marketing in a digital world,it's innovative, fast changing
and utterly overwhelming. So howdo you stay up to date, or even
ahead of the curve? How do youknow which new digital wave is
(01:07):
actually worth riding? Today,you and I, we're going to get
schooled on where digitalmarketing is up to, where it's
heading, and how you can gothere without throwing away your
values. Meet Cherie Clonan.
Cherie Clonan (01:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
Sarah Spence (01:23):
She's the Chief Executive Officer at The Digital
Picnic.
Cherie Clonan (01:27):
My tiny little agency here in Melbourne, I love
what I do. I love it.
Sarah Spence (01:31):
But that isn't where this journey started for
her. In fact, it started in atotally different job. When the
world seemed like a totallydifferent place.
Cherie Clonan (01:41):
I was on a completely different path,
working as a mental healthclinician and genuinely loved
what I did, I, you know, I didthe postgrad in mental health
and I was on the path that Ithought I was suited to except
that it became so clinical, thehigher up you got. And you know,
I just thought I want to becreative, you know. And so I
started writing and wrote this,you know, I say this in inverted
(02:02):
commas, but like a “silly littleblog“ about my “silly little
family“. That was enough, thatwas enough to fill the cup up
and just wrote and wrote andwrote my little heart out. I've
always loved writing andbasically long story short,
very, very long story short,that blog went from three
readers like my dad, my husband,and my sister, you know, to
60,000 unique views per month.And I just thought: Oh, okay, I
(02:26):
don't feel comfortable withthis, because I'm writing about
my family. So by then, you know,I was already starting to write
for like, larger onlinepublications, got pulled in
house, began a career as acopywriter and dipped from, you
know, the previous careercompletely, because that just
filled and with a significantpay cut, by the way, it just
filled my cup up so much more.That's the transfer from, you
(02:48):
know, mental health clinician tocopywriter, and then that little
tap on the shoulder that you getas a copywriter, which I'm sure
any copywriters listening, youknow, can relate to where they
say, the strategy department isunder resourced, can we pull you
across, and I never came back.
Sarah Spence (03:02):
That's so cool. I didn't know that story of your
pre life actually, that's sogreat. And what, you know, a
good link, even because theimpact you were having in that
career, you can do that kind oftenfold, in this career with
your team and with the audiencesthat you create content for.
Cherie Clonan (03:19):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I feel really lucky.
I hope anyone listening doesn'tfeel like they're stuck in one
career, you know, and then atsometimes something else is so
perfectly suited to the one daynow, you know, 2023, where I'm
leading a team and every week,
I'm thinking I'm so grateful forthat postgrad in mental health,
you know, because it means I getto do what I do here at TDP in
(03:42):
just a slightly different way.
Sarah Spence (03:44):
Can you tell us a bit about The Digital Picnic or
TDP? And what do you do? Who doyou do it for?
Cherie Clonan (03:50):
I just passionately believe that the
best digital marketingpractitioners teach digital. And
then I think the best digitalmarketing teachers are still on
the tools practicing. And sothat's what we do. We literally
teach and manage the digitalmarketing efforts of our client
portfolio and also teach anarray of incredible students,
(04:12):
not just here in Australia, butyou know, around the world and
teach them digital marketing.I'd say the percentages
sometimes it feels like 70%management services, 30%
teaching, but you never know theclimate changes those
percentages here and there. Buteither way, we're always
teaching and managing and welove, I love what I do. I love
it.
Sarah Spence (04:32):
Are they two very separate audiences for you? The
management, you know, idealaudience versus the learning
ideal audience? Are theydifferent? Or is there
crossover?
Cherie Clonan (04:42):
That's a really good question. I feel like, they
should. Right? You would thinkthey would be different
audiences. But for some surreal,great reason, the majority of
clients on our portfolio wereour students first, which means
they're a green flag. Theyalready respect everything
enough because they've done thelearning, and what it means is
we can just show up on socialand just really show up as us.
(05:07):
Because who we're attracting,they often start by being taught
by us and then become the clientbecause they back us once
they've been taught. And reallyseeing the behind the scenes,
not just the wishy washy,social, like: “Oh, hey, social
is fun“, you know, they see: “Whoa, this is not even a full (05:20):
undefined
time job. This is multiplepeople.“ I'm not the most avid
user of the word funnel, I lovea funnel, I respect funnel, but
I don't use it a lot in myeveryday vocabulary. But to us,
we feel like we've got the most,we've got this beautiful funnel
where people start as a studentand become a client.
Sarah Spence (05:40):
What made you actually take that jump, I guess
when you, you know, were tappedon the shoulder and like brought
in house etc. What made you gofrom that and your safe employed
roles to starting your ownthing?
Cherie Clonan (05:52):
It's the obvious that I think any probably, I
just hear this story in so manyworking parents stories, but it
was a really non familyfriendly, you know, return to
work where suddenly, I just, Iwas acutely aware that I was
going to be expected to pull thesame 12 plus 14 ish hour days.
But the difference is, I wasn'tthe same person returning to
(06:15):
that seat, you know, and I had ababy with, you know, a young
baby, I think I returned to workwhen my son was 10 weeks old, so
pumped full of hormones, badchoices, let me tell you. And,
you know, he had reflux, he hadblisters all the way down his
(06:35):
throat, he cried all day long.And the crying only stopped when
he went to sleep, you know. Sothere was no reprieve. And I was
struggling. And I just knew Isat in that seat and I thought
I'm going to, and I say this ininverted commas to like, "let
you down", I'm not going to hitit, like I used to hit it
(06:56):
before. So that definitelyfactored in. And, you know, the
reintroduction to the workforcepost, you know, parental leave
wasn't amazing at all, actuallywas the polar freaking opposite.
And then the other factor atplay was just way, way back
before that day, I sat in therelevant tertiary
qualifications, and I rememberwaiting to be taught how to
(07:16):
practically do my job, and itnever happened. And I thought
there's a gap in the markethere. And I knew back then as a
student, racking up 10s of 1000sof dollars of debt, to not even
know how to literally put a paidads campaign together or put a
strategy together from start tofinish or, you know, just the
practical things. And I thought,one day when I have enough
(07:37):
experience, credibility, justall the things I was waiting
for, you know, I'm gonna launchin and teach that all sort of
collided, like a non familyfriendly to return to work the
knowing that one day I'll teachthis, you know, and so I did, I
launched into it in October2014, no business plan, telling
(07:59):
my husband, I'm just going toteach a couple of social media
workshops on a weekend and seehow it all works out, it's
working out. So who would havethunk it?
Sarah Spence (08:11):
So hang on a sec, I just want to pause. Cherie,
and The Digital Picnic didsomething there that at first
thought most people wouldn'tthink would actually work. They
were teaching people, but thenoffering to do for them the
thing that they're just taughtthem. And that's a whole thing
about digital marketing. It'scomplex, it's big, it's a whole
(08:32):
team thing. You can't just do itas an individual. And when
people find that out, well, itdoes make more sense to hand it
over. And the cost makes moresense too and when you think
about it that way, suddenly,that doesn't sound like a
strange idea. But it's not theonly winning formula for TDP.
There's something else,something radically different.
Cherie Clonan (08:55):
Ah, I don't know sometimes in those, you know,
vulnerable neurodivergentmoments. I wonder am I
approaching this the wrong way?I don't know. But I can't be
anything other than radicallyauthentic, radically
transparent, just yeah,radically real. All of the
radicals really. I want to walkthe walk and show people. I
(09:21):
don't want to be that agencythat leaves their own socials to
the very bottom of the prioritylist. Like we prioritize us as
if we were a client, we treatourselves as if we were a client
and we show our clients whatwe're made of every day. You
know, and so instead of postingonce a month with a “Hi, this is
Brian. Brian loves coffee, SEOand his Cavoodle please sign up
(09:44):
to our SEO packages, link inbio," you know that will just
literally never be us. That isso freakin' boring. I know
you're a subscriber to the samelike philosophies, like no more
Brian man, like come on. So whatwe do instead is we just, you
know, we wear our contentmarketing hearts on our social
media sleeves and we just sharethe living bejesus out of us,
(10:09):
you know, and I'm respectful tomy team. I've got a big team of
introverts, but we still, yeah,we just we show up and share us.
It's very humanized, it'sprogressive, it's loud, it's
proud, it's different. And I'mproud of our differences online.
Sarah Spence (10:23):
Sure, we could talk about this for hours, but
how do you feel that theindustry has changed? Or is it
not even worth talking aboutbecause it's just so different?
Cherie Clonan (10:33):
It's so different, and the industry was
going to change anyway. Buthaven't we lived through our,
like, particular lifetime withone in 100 year type situations
going on that generations beyondus, you know, apparently won't
kind of live, you know, through.So I think our industry was
always going to change anyway,it's literally digital, but
(10:55):
COVID and, you know, this yearas well, it's just changing so
much about the industry that I'min, but the truth is, I guess,
knowing all of that, I wouldsay, I think I'm the right
person for this industry,because I love change. Even as
an autistic woman, apparently,we don't like change. I don't
like (11:11):
Dave, don't change my cutlery, let's go to the same
restaurant every Saturday, let'ssit at the same freakin' table,
book it at the same time,because I want the same
predictable acoustics going on,let me tell you, but by the way,
I'm down for changing digitalstrategies, you know, as
required, and so on literallyall year round.
Sarah Spence (11:30):
Yeah. And I'd say, you know, from what I know of
you as well, that you're alsoincredibly well suited to
leading a team through thatchange. Because that's, that's a
whole other thing to actuallybeing okay with the change, but
then leading a team and agencyand your clients and your
audience, you're learningeducation audience through that,
(11:50):
as well, it's a whole otherkettle of fish. Okay, how about
the future, then? Where do yousee us going in the future?
Cherie Clonan (11:57):
The truth is, I don't actually know where this
industry is headed, I'd belying, I'd be Nostradamus, and
so on, like, I guess I'm gonnaput hopes in instead. I hope
that it continues to head to adirection where people seem to
build more and more respect forwhat we're doing. And I would
especially like to see a pointwhere they're willing to pay
(12:17):
more for that, because I don'tthink we're there yet. I think
the respect is building, but Ithink people are, like, really
respect you, but holy shit,that's far too much. Bring it
down, you know, and we're stillthere. And that's not fair.
Because I, from my perspective,I'm expected to somehow find a
way to continue to possibly, youknow, increase in X, Y, Z ways.
(12:40):
So I would like to see just acontinued growth of the, you
know, the respect for the peopleworking in this industry, and
you know, what they're doing forit. Outside of that, I just
don't know, I think every singlemonth something changes, so much
like who would have ever thoughtthat there was ever going to be
a month where TikTok had moresearch than Google, you know,
(13:02):
for example, I would never haveseen that coming. AI is just,
you know it better than I do, itis going to completely transform
this industry. And outside ofthat, my only other prediction
is that I really do think thatmore and more brands,
organizations, and so on, areprobably going to bring
marketing like as in organic, inhouse, more, and they're going
(13:24):
to need education. And you know,they'll end up outsourcing more
on the specialized services thateven if they brought them in
house, they're relying on a,like I say this in inverted
commas, but “unicorn“ to somehowbring that home. And I just, I
think that's not really fair,you know, so I think you'd
probably be better offoutsourcing to a team of specialists.
Sarah Spence (13:47):
On your point around the value increasing or
the perception of valueincreasing of what we do, I
would absolutely love that tohappen as well. My concern at
the moment is that AI andparticularly ChatGPT it's
obviously going to have a bigimpact. We can talk a bit about
that in a second too. But I hopethat brands particularly
(14:07):
continue to see the value in thehuman creativity and in the
strategy and also in theoutsider's perspective, because
there's a lot of great thingsthat incredibly experienced
people can do in house, inteams, and we see that all the
time across all our clients. Butan outsider's perspective is so
important. So I'm hopeful thatwhat will mostly I guess
(14:31):
continue to be seen as reallyvaluable is that the strategy
and the creativity and then ofcourse the kind of overflow of
being able to make that happen.They can you know, hopefully
also use us.
Cherie Clonan (14:42):
I couldn't agree more. I just hope that people
are aware. You know, for theones who are sitting there,
heart pounding a little bitthinking is AI going to take my
job? I just want to scream fromthe rooftops: no. The human
being who knows how to masterthe prompts and you know, just
literally master AI is gonna bethe one that takes your job. So
it's gonna be a human who knowshow to use AI to do their jobs
(15:04):
better that will take your job,not AI.
Sarah Spence (15:07):
And I mean, the thing is, yeah, with chat GPT,
or any of the kind of any AImodels these days, especially
those accessing those largelanguage models. Ultimately, it
comes down to the fact that whatwe are asking of it, regardless
of how good the prompt is, iswhat we're asking of it, is that
it's kind of given thestatistical distribution of
(15:29):
words in everything that youhave been fed with, what words
are those most likely to followa particular question or a
particular prompt that we'reputting in there, that's...
that's all it is. That's allit's actually good for. It
speaks with such confidence backto us. It's a whole
confabulation, you know, anuntruth presented confidently as
(15:52):
the truth. And that's what Ifeel like it it is. And it's
wonderful. And I absolutely loveit. And we're using it. But
we're really careful about howwe're using it.
Cherie Clonan (16:00):
It reminds me of sitting in corporate boardrooms
listening to someone speak soconfidently. We've all worked
with that person, we canprobably visualize them in our
heads right now. And I'm like,You sound confident, but you're
shit.
Sarah Spence (16:10):
Yeah. Yes. But further to that point, I guess
in talking about brands and whatthey value, what are the biggest
mistakes, I guess, oropportunities, whichever way you
want to put it, are you seeingthat brands are making when it
comes to digital marketing? Ithink especially, you know,
relevant this year in 2023, aswe are in this economic
(16:31):
downturn, and I think whatperhaps is a relevant answer to
this question, even six monthsago, would be different to now.
Cherie Clonan (16:38):
I mean, I'll go in really biassed here. And
because I obviously am headingup an agency that specializes in
paid, I think the mistake thatwe're seeing a lot in this
climate is people thinking paidis the solution to all of their
problems, you know, that theycan pull this one lever, and
suddenly their P&L will look alot healthier. And I just think
(17:01):
we are so integrity learned thatwe can sniff that out within
seconds of speaking to aprospective client, and it's a
no from us, because I don't wantto go down with that ship, you
know, and I don't want them tothink that TDP are the reason
that they failed, you know, youwould know better than I do that
there's just so many things thatled them to this place where
paid was never going to work forthem right down to the web
(17:22):
experience, the product, theoffering, you know, and so on.
And I'm not going to say that weonly do paid. But that is what
we do. And we represent paid ina really good way. And we do
really big things for ourclients, you know, but we need
lots of the other things to beworking before we do that, and I
don't want to expand my agencyto you know, 70-100 people to be
(17:47):
able to go so holistic to getthem, you know, to a spot where
it's like, don't worry if it'sshit, we'll fix it at this step,
and that, and that, before youget to paid, I don't want to be
that big. I want to just stay inmy lane, I love paid, I love the
impacts that it can have on abusiness and you know, so on,
but yeah, just people thinkingthat paid is the solution is
quite dangerous.
(18:07):
And I think they're gonna getsold a pipe dream from people
lacking integrity, the way thatwe do where they'll get a yes
from them after a no from us.You know, that's the big thing
that we're seeing. And what wewould love to tell everyone is
for us to get to the yes,there's not a lot of levers that
you'd need to pull, you know,before we said: you're ready.
(18:28):
And it's like, respectingorganic organic SMM, you know,
the way that that will reduceyour paid ads dollars in terms
of being able to put the moreonto warm audiences than like
super, super cold, that's soexpensive. And I don't want to
play with too many of those coldcold dollars. Because yeah,
we'll get results because like,of course, we just threw 10K at
(18:48):
it, it's bloody expensive. I'dmuch rather play around with
warm dollars and warm dollars,you know, come for us leads,
that have bucketloads of respectfor organic social media.
They've got something consistentgoing on. It's good. They're
regularly, you know, leadingpeople to their website, the web
experience is good, I guesseducating themselves and saying
(19:10):
I, I can do better than this.
Sarah Spence (19:13):
Just talking about the kind of current climate like
what we saw to begin with was,brands really bedding down into
those longer term strategies ofwhich we do here at Content
Copywriting, the kind of longerterm SEO and content marketing
strategies. But then in the lastfew months, I think as things
have got even tighter, there'sbeen a big shift towards: no, we
(19:33):
just need fast action and fastresults. But I am worried also
about the impact of that shortterm thinking.
Cherie Clonan (19:40):
Yeah, it's sometimes that we're not asking
for more in terms of whatthey're paying. It's just like,
help us meet, you know, thissocial platform where it's
currently at, and sometimes theythink: Christ, I'm paying to get
bossed around by this crew andwe're like no were just hero in
your best practice strategylike: We want you to win. When
(20:01):
you win, we win. We do getpushed back: I can't afford
more, I haven't got more time,I'm paying you, you need to do
this, you know, and so on. Butit starts with those kinds of
statements. And because we'reteachers as well as
practitioners, we can alwaysteach them out of that, you
know, fixed kind of mindset. Andwe can usually bring most
around, you know, and say hey,we're just, help us help you.
(20:25):
This year, especially, and allof 2022 transformed our
industry. So I'm talking moresocial media marketing, to be
honest, but digital, too. Butthe conversations we're having
with clients is they can see,they can see right in front of
their very eyes, just how muchsocial platforms transformed in
the space of literally 12months. And anyone who can't
(20:49):
recognize how much moreexpensive it is to show up to
these social platforms in a bestpractice way is head in the
sand. They know, they're juststicking their head in the sand.
Now, you know, for example,let's just use Instagram as a
social platform. That's becomefour platforms in one. And it is
the least profitable work we arecurrently doing in terms of like
(21:10):
offering organic social mediamanagement, because of how much
these platforms are changing.Because we recognize trying to
bump up retainers, to meet howmuch it costs to manage this.
Well, it pushes retainers to apoint where maybe people
wouldn't even have ongoingconversations with us anymore.
So we're taking things out, butit does chip away, you know, at
(21:33):
best practice, and so more thanever, now we're focusing on
educating so that we can teachour clients to do more in house
in collaboration with us.
Sarah Spence (21:44):
To do marketing, full stop. Well. Is actually, is
such a bigger undertaking, thanI think anyone really realizes.
And we want to work inpartnership with our brands and
our clients. But if theyobviously can't afford to pay
for that to happen, then it'sabsolutely critical that we're
(22:06):
supporting them to build thoseskills internally. Do you feel
like a solely, I mean, you kindof already answered, but a
solely social focused, social,organic, and social paid,
focused strategy is sufficient?
Cherie Clonan (22:20):
I just really think is that omni experience
this year, and maybe peoplelistening will be like...damn
it. So I mean, omni, yeah,absolutely, but do what you can
afford and resource and so on.And if you're looking for
quicker, I'm not gonna sayquick, but quicker, you know,
wins, then just really try tonail the few tiny quick wins
(22:43):
that you can to just scale alittle bit to build out to that,
obviously, like holy grail ofthe omni experience, but I don't
want things to compete. Like itshould all just work, you know,
in collaboration together. Irecently spoke at an event where
one piece of advice was to pullaway from paid completely. And I
just thought (23:02):
Oh, that's a bigger assertion, you know, and
I, I disagree with that. But Irespectfully disagree with that.
And I thought, let's not competehere, because me coming from
paid, I can complement what youdo. And when you're nailing it
our paid Ads campaigns do somuch better. So yeah, I just, I
really hope that people can lookat this climate, I know, it's a
(23:25):
more intimidating one, trust me,I, I sit with the same like,
sort of, you know, moments weekto week where I'm like, please,
what, just get us to 2024please.
Sarah Spence (23:36):
Let's just stop here for a second and recap.
Because what Cherie and I havejust given you, I think, is
quite a masterclass in digitalcontent. It's so hard to predict
the future. And we've seen thatdefinitely with the onslaught of
AI development this year. Thingsare literally changing by the
minute. And then we've gottighter budgets on top of that,
(23:56):
and also trying to balance theneed to invest for when times do
get better. This is an issue forboth brands, and small
businesses, and freelancers too.But of course, there's another
factor in all of this, thepeople who make up the agency.
Cherie has crafted a workplacethat actively goes against the
reputation that some of the moretraditional agencies in our
(24:17):
space have for being just, well,a bit toxic. Instead, it's a
culture that encouragesauthenticity and creativity. And
it's something that I have takena hell of a lot of inspiration
from over the years, even beforeI had met Cherie. So I wanted to
know, from someone who has doneit, if this incredible type of
culture can really become thenorm in our industry. And I put
(24:40):
myself in that boat, you know,I've built an incredible culture
that I'm really proud of. Andthat's why I had to ask her this
question.
Do you think that, especially intimes like we're in at the
moment, I guess, can people overprofit truly lead to better
outcomes for employees, clientsand business owners? Or are we
(25:03):
fighting a losing battle?
Cherie Clonan (25:05):
Gosh, it's such a good question. You asked, can it
be people over profit and can ithave good outcomes for people
and so on and, I'm like, yes,yes. And then when you said
business I'm like, not really.Um, look, I am people over
profit, but I promise I take thehits big time. I would be making
so much more if I cared so muchless about people. So I don't, I
(25:29):
can't answer this honestly,that, you know, if you choose
the people over profit game,just be prepared for the fact
that you, I'm gonna be loweredinto the ground with them,
millions of dollars less thanothers and I couldn't care less.
I definitely financially takehits every single week because
of my approach and I'll neverchange it, because I am big on
legacy. And I want to make surethat I've, as to the best of my
(25:54):
ability, done the best thing Ican for the people that I employ
throughout my professionallifetime. I will say there are
two people that are becomingmore important in that equation.
It's my two children who aregrowing up in a time where I
just can't see how our kids areever going to own a freakin'
house, you know. So I amstarting to shake it up a bit
and say (26:12):
Hey, Cherie, there's two other stakeholders that
you're not factoring in here,so, you know, don't forget your
two children. As for theindustry. I'm an industry
disrupter, but I'm still...honestly I'm not perfect. I
reckon I'd have weeks, monthsand so on where I'm toxic, I'm
just as toxic as the rest ofthis bloody industry is, you
know, I'm a prolific peoplepleaser, and that's toxic within
(26:36):
itself. I'm still fighting thegood fight with regards to
overwork, and so on and reducingand trying to make the
differentiation more obviousbetween hunger and hustle, you
know, and it is a weeklyfreakin' battle. But the truth
is, I think the really shitpoisonous toxic folk within this
industry never even get toFriday, reflecting on any of
(26:58):
that.
Sarah Spence (26:59):
I think something you and I have both experienced
in building these, these reallylovely cultures is that it's
really hard to keep it up allthe time, as you've just
mentioned, but also, it can'tjust be it's nice all the time
and, you know, you're only goingto have, you know, not that much
(27:20):
work on all the time, and we'regoing to have space for
creativity all the time. Andthat's been a really interesting
transition for me to lead withthe team. Because people
especially who started with us,it was not the best change for
them, because they came into aplace where we were really
cruisy, and we really had a lotof space for that. But as the
(27:41):
business has grown and gotbusier and busier, I definitely
still prescribe to, actually Iwas gonna say people over
profit, but what I'd like to sayI prescribe to these days is
people and profit.
Cherie Clonan (27:54):
Our tagline is that we're apparently the nicest
place on the internet. That wasour tagline developed by our own
clients, students, and so on.And as you heard me say, Sarah,
on our recent LeadershipRetreat, sometimes TDP is not
the nicest place on theinternet. Sometimes we're
rolling up our sleeves andreporting week getting our asses
served to us on a platter, youknow. Other times we are under
(28:15):
resourced because there's justbeen sick leave after sick leave
because of COVID. And yeah,those weeks suck, and they're
hustle. And that's when we'renot the nicest place on the
internet but I'll just keepdoing my best and hope that I'm
raising a team of leaders who'llkeep representing the best of
this industry to the best thatthey can.
Sarah Spence (28:36):
How can we balance people and profit without
leaning into that toxic space ofdemanding more from everyone
every day? For Cherie to talkabout that with me, while also
recognizing for herself howshe's trying to change those
toxic habits that we've all beenexposed to, it's just so honest
and vulnerable. And that bringsme to this final chapter in our
(29:00):
story. It's something you've hada little sneak peek at along the
way. And something both Cherieand I share in different ways.
We're going back to why Cherieis rebelliously different, both
in her work, her business and inwho she is.
Cherie Clonan (29:15):
I was never not going to be anything other than
radically different. Like, I wasradically different from
freakin' primary school when Icouldn't figure out my
neurotypical peers and, youknow, I just, it became more and
more obvious as time went onthat I was really different to
others, you know. So back to theblogging days, you know, I just
kept realizing maybe through thepattern recognition, people kept
(29:38):
leaving the same comments on myblog: Oh my god, I've never seen
someone write this way. I'venever felt like I've known a
complete stranger better thanwhat I read this, you know. And
it was just the same comments tothe point of like, please don't
get me wrong when I say this, Iam so grateful for that
commentary, but it was almostpredictably boring. You know, it
would be the same comments afterthe same, and I'm like, I know.
(30:03):
But I didn't want to bearrogant. I don't think I'm
actually a great writer. That'sthe truth. It's not anything to
do with arrogance, I'm justwriting the way that my brain is
designed to speak to people. Soright from the blogging days, I
was like, whatever I do, I'mgoing to be different in this
industry, it's just going tofeel different. So pushing
forward to becoming the agencyowner here at The Digital
(30:25):
Picnic, we end up having areally different presence,
because of a lot of these thingsthat my brain just can't do
anything other than be reallydifferent in its approach, and
we as a result, I have a reallydifferent team than a lot of
other agencies, you know. Iattract, honestly, in my humble
opinion, better people. Some ofthem make sacrifices to be here
(30:47):
because they want to be here.I've got people from large
corporates moving away frommassive corporate salaries that
are three times as much as me,you know, and they say, I'm over
here, because I want to be apart of this. And even now,
eight years later, our followersreally, really feel like they
know us and they back us, andthey're the people who sat in
marketing professional rolesduring COVID when we lost 76% of
(31:10):
our client portfolio overnight,and they said: Hey, have you got
room to take on this 100Kgovernment tender? And I was
like, fuck, yes! You know,please save my business, you
know. So and they did thatbecause they just freakin' love
us and wouldn't have even knownthe role that they played in
getting us out of the reallyuncomfortable spot way back
(31:31):
then.
Sarah Spence (31:32):
You're proudly autistic. I'm an ADHD-er. We are
members of one of the best clubsgoing around, I think, but as we
both know our neuro divergenceposes plenty of ongoing daily
challenges, even so it does meanour brains do tend to work in
some pretty incredible ways attimes. What do you love most
(31:52):
about your beautiful autisticbrain?
Cherie Clonan (31:55):
You know, I hear about other people sharing
stories about things that theystruggle with and I just think I
can't relate. That isn't mystruggle because of my autistic
brain. I have the bestrelationship with my kids, like
it's... I love the way I mumbecause of my autistic brain.
I'm fun. I'm funny. I'm a bitchaotic. I'm dark humoured. I'm
(32:20):
continuously meeting them wherethey're at, like my son's
heading into his teenage years.And I'm still there with him.
And I'm somehow continuing toengage with him when my friends
are talking about their kidspulling away in really big ways.
And it's just because I'mmeeting him with seriously dark
humor. And humor that suits teenboys. You know, there's not a
(32:42):
single week that I go throughthis life where I think: thanks,
autism, but also fuck youautism. There are so many weeks
where I'm like, God damn, I paidan autistic tax there. I'm not
going to discount that or, youknow, discredit, but, you know,
when you asked about the thingsthat I love most about my
autistic brain, it's just, thereare so many things that I really
do, every single week take forgranted and life feels in so
(33:07):
many ways that feel like, fromwhat I'm hearing from lots and
lots of neurotypical friends,colleagues, you know, you get
the gist. Their challenges Ican't relate to. As an autistic
person, a lot of us can relateto having special interests. And
my special interest is people.And it always has been I'm
fascinated by people. And Ithink that's why I don't
(33:30):
struggle as an organizationalleader as much as others do,
because at the crux of it, I'vegot this really intense special
interest in people, you know.I'm really good at recognizing
patterns in everything, like theshitty thing about that, is Dave
can't take me to any moviebecause I've called it five
minutes in, like, okay,predictable as fuck, you know,
(33:52):
and he's like, Cherie, you'rekillin' me kid, you know. But
the pattern recognition helps inother ways, where i'll walk into
a new group, and I'm sorry tosay, but I spot the nark and I'm
like eww straightaway, I'm like,uh, you know, and, and my
friends are like they're Great,I'm like, in my head i am: no,
(34:13):
they're not. And six monthslater, they're like, that person
was terrible. I'm like, uhm,it's just those moments. I just,
I just love that patternrecognition so much I spot these
micro things that matter topeople, I can spot when someone
has their feelings hurt in aliteral microsecond and I just
want to jump across and hugthem. You know, I have just this
(34:34):
abundance of empathy where I'mlike, you just got your feelings
hurt, and this could berectified if you both just did
this, but you don't, so do youwant a hug? Yes, I am a disabled
woman. I am. There are reallysome hard things about my
disability, there really is,even just financially, but so
many other things as well. Butthere's not also a single week
(34:55):
where I'm just like, I love thisbrain. Thanks, Dad.
Sarah Spence (34:58):
I'm on such a journey with with accepting my
brain and doing that thing thatis so often... I now understand
the process that comes from latein life diagnosis of, it's a
grief grieving process really,of going back over your entire
life and going (35:11):
Oh, I see Oh, yes. Okay, I understand that now
within this framing. And I justlove where you've got to, and
I'm sure it's an ongoingpractice, but to be framing
those challenges from theperspective of the positives
that they also give you. And Idefinitely, I feel that way as
well about my brain sometimesand others, when I just can't
(35:33):
find those shoes that I was sureI'd left there, or I've promised
something to the kids and thenI've completely forgotten that I
promised it to them. And all ofthose things, I still find a bit
challenging. I also wanted tosay, does it make your team, or
people you are able to do this,too deeply uncomfortable when
you know, you can see that splitsecond, that flicker in their
eyes, that slight change of bodylanguage? And you call it out
(35:56):
for them? Does it make themreally uncomfortable? Because I
do that too and I could just seepeople go: Oh, God, she saw me,
that's so annoying.
Cherie Clonan (36:03):
Oh, yeah, I stopped doing it because it just
doesn't get a good response. Andit's not that I'm hiding from
the pattern recognition. ButI've just learned that they
don't like it called in themoment for my team, it's just my
team. I just don't think peopleare ready for my very quick like
pattern recognition in thatregard. And I don't want to make
(36:25):
people feel uncomfortable.Instead, I just right use the
gift of pattern recognition andjust surprise and delight with
maybe solution like in adifferent way, a week or two
from now.
Sarah Spence (36:36):
Absolutely. And I, you know, I have an ADHD-er,
really quite, quite profoundstruggles with impulsivity. And
it's really hard for me not to,and often it's come out of my
mouth before I've had the chanceto even process it. And so I'm
on a path to gaining a betterpractice with that, because I
(36:57):
love the impact that seeingthose patterns can have, but I
want to go about it in a moreconstructive way.
Cherie Clonan (37:04):
I just want to hug you right now through the
screen because I just, I dorelate, like I know, I
understand. And just the pathfor the late diagnosed folk,
it's just a journey of like,absolute radical self
forgiveness. That's the only wayI could just get to a better
spot.
Sarah Spence (37:22):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's the gift that
we are able to give though toour kids and their generation,
is the awareness and theempowerment of that awareness in
their younger years.
Cherie Clonan (37:35):
You know what, I'm raising an autistic son who
doesn't like people, you know,he is honestly, we could
stereotype him very easily.Really doesn't enjoy being
around people, or only has asort of small circle of people
who he finds like interesting.Honestly, we could easily put
him into the stereotypical thingthat a lot of people think is
(37:57):
autism in the workplace. He's asolo kind of dude. And I love
that he's gonna walk in knowingthat so much about himself and
do what he needs to do with thatknowledge. Now, me, I'm a
special like, not special.What's the word, like I'm, I'm a
different brand of autismbecause I've just learnt and
through formal identificationthat I'm PDA, which is by its
description, you know,pathological demand, avoidant.
(38:20):
But we instead you know, a moreneuro affirming approach, or
description of it apparently, isa persistent drive for autonomy.
All of that doesn't matter. Onething about PDA autistic folk is
our absolute special interest inpeople. I don't want to go into
too much because I certainlyonly am at the early days of my
(38:41):
understanding, and it just, whenI learned this, it made sense of
autistic me because I couldn'tfigure out why, why do I, even
as a deep, deep introvert, whydo I love people so much? You
know, even when they're shit,I'm like you are so interesting.
How do you be so shit? And itis, it's my PDA profile. So only
(39:02):
as recently as last week, we gotthis horrible comment on TDP
socials where they said (39:05):
you're faking your autism to
financially benefit. And Ithought, far out mate, like,
look at my salary, you've got noidea how much I am not
financially benefiting from my'tism. And it's ableist I've I
would have argued, probablyinternalized ableism. And they
must be thinking, but, but youcan't because you're show up,
(39:25):
you present on stages, you dothis, you do that, you lead a
team, you can't be autistic. AndI'm like: Yes, I can. For me,
it's the PDA situation. I knowfor folks who are autistic, who
aren't PDA, are also justexcellent people, managers
pattern recognition, deep, deep,deep levels of empathy. So much
(39:46):
empathy we can't articulate it,which is why neurotypicals think
we don't have it. You know,there's just so much at play
because we are just so capableif we're given the respect that
we deserve and not held to theselike limiting beliefs about what
autism is in a workplace.
Sarah Spence (40:02):
Exactly, there is so much at play. There's
definitely no rule book. Prettymuch every single assumption
that society has ever had of anytype of neurodivergent brain is
probably representative of about1% of all the neurodiverse
profiles that there are. Idefinitely grew up thinking that
ADHD was that boy who couldn'tsit still in a classroom. I love
(40:25):
the visual in my head that I nowhave, that a neurodivergent
brain has like this big soundboard. You know, that sound
mixing board in a recordingstudio that has lots of
different dials and levers. Butit goes on for miles. Everybody
has different preferences acrosssuch a huge range of things.
(40:46):
There's definitely no singlerepresentation of ADHD or autism
or any of the otherneurodivergent profiles. And
unfortunately, there is so muchnegative discourse about it
right now, especially about howpeople are faking it. But that's
certainly not been myexperience, or Cherie's. And
what's interesting here is thatCherie and I, are inextricably
(41:07):
linked in a way that I justnever realized. We both can't
not agitate for change. We bothcan't not push forward and
innovate. It simply is who weare, and how our brains work.
And I'm just so glad that weboth landed in an industry and
in roles and in businesses,where that's exactly what's
(41:29):
needed.
Thanks for joining me on thisjourney. If you want to stay
rebellious in how you practicemarketing, how you show up in
your workplace and how you liveyour life, please subscribe to
the Content Rebels wherever youlisten to your podcasts. This
podcast was recorded on Awabakaland Darkinjung Country. Produced
(41:51):
by Pod and Pen productions.
Cherie Clonan isn't your typical agency owner.
By her own admission, she'sradically different. She runs
her business with both her headand her heart, and she has a
deep fascination with people. Sohow did this proudly autistic
leader come to create thesometimes nicest place on the
internet? Let's find out.
(00:24):
Hi, I'm Sarah Spence. I grew aContent Agency from just me to
20 people inside two years. Soyou'd think I'd have my shit
together. And even though I tryto come at everything with a
rebellious curiosity, I've beenso focused on growing this
thing, that I'm a bit behind inthe trends. Join me on this
(00:45):
journey to find out what'sactually happening in the world
of marketing. Welcome to TheContent Rebels.
Marketing in a digital world,it's innovative, fast changing
and utterly overwhelming. So howdo you stay up to date, or even
ahead of the curve? How do youknow which new digital wave is
(01:07):
actually worth riding? Today,you and I, we're going to get
schooled on where digitalmarketing is up to, where it's
heading, and how you can gothere without throwing away your
values. Meet Cherie Clonan.
Cherie Clonan (01:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
Sarah Spence (01:23):
She's the Chief Executive Officer at The Digital
Picnic.
Cherie Clonan (01:27):
My tiny little agency here in Melbourne, I love
what I do. I love it.
Sarah Spence (01:31):
But that isn't where this journey started for
her. In fact, it started in atotally different job. When the
world seemed like a totallydifferent place.
Cherie Clonan (01:41):
I was on a completely different path,
working as a mental healthclinician and genuinely loved
what I did, I, you know, I didthe postgrad in mental health
and I was on the path that Ithought I was suited to except
that it became so clinical, thehigher up you got. And you know,
I just thought I want to becreative, you know. And so I
started writing and wrote this,you know, I say this in inverted
(02:02):
commas, but like a “silly littleblog“ about my “silly little
family“. That was enough, thatwas enough to fill the cup up
and just wrote and wrote andwrote my little heart out. I've
always loved writing andbasically long story short,
very, very long story short,that blog went from three
readers like my dad, my husband,and my sister, you know, to
60,000 unique views per month.And I just thought: Oh, okay, I
(02:26):
don't feel comfortable withthis, because I'm writing about
my family. So by then, you know,I was already starting to write
for like, larger onlinepublications, got pulled in
house, began a career as acopywriter and dipped from, you
know, the previous careercompletely, because that just
filled and with a significantpay cut, by the way, it just
filled my cup up so much more.That's the transfer from, you
(02:48):
know, mental health clinician tocopywriter, and then that little
tap on the shoulder that you getas a copywriter, which I'm sure
any copywriters listening, youknow, can relate to where they
say, the strategy department isunder resourced, can we pull you
across, and I never came back.
Sarah Spence (03:02):
That's so cool. I didn't know that story of your
pre life actually, that's sogreat. And what, you know, a
good link, even because theimpact you were having in that
career, you can do that kind oftenfold, in this career with
your team and with the audiencesthat you create content for.
Cherie Clonan (03:19):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I feel really lucky.
I hope anyone listening doesn'tfeel like they're stuck in one
career, you know, and then atsometimes something else is so
perfectly suited to the one daynow, you know, 2023, where I'm
leading a team and every week,
I'm thinking I'm so grateful forthat postgrad in mental health,
you know, because it means I getto do what I do here at TDP in
(03:42):
just a slightly different way.
Sarah Spence (03:44):
Can you tell us a bit about The Digital Picnic or
TDP? And what do you do? Who doyou do it for?
Cherie Clonan (03:50):
I just passionately believe that the
best digital marketingpractitioners teach digital. And
then I think the best digitalmarketing teachers are still on
the tools practicing. And sothat's what we do. We literally
teach and manage the digitalmarketing efforts of our client
portfolio and also teach anarray of incredible students,
(04:12):
not just here in Australia, butyou know, around the world and
teach them digital marketing.I'd say the percentages
sometimes it feels like 70%management services, 30%
teaching, but you never know theclimate changes those
percentages here and there. Buteither way, we're always
teaching and managing and welove, I love what I do. I love
it.
Sarah Spence (04:32):
Are they two very separate audiences for you? The
management, you know, idealaudience versus the learning
ideal audience? Are theydifferent? Or is there
crossover?
Cherie Clonan (04:42):
That's a really good question. I feel like, they
should. Right? You would thinkthey would be different
audiences. But for some surreal,great reason, the majority of
clients on our portfolio wereour students first, which means
they're a green flag. Theyalready respect everything
enough because they've done thelearning, and what it means is
we can just show up on socialand just really show up as us.
(05:07):
Because who we're attracting,they often start by being taught
by us and then become the clientbecause they back us once
they've been taught. And reallyseeing the behind the scenes,
not just the wishy washy,social, like: “Oh, hey, social
is fun“, you know, they see: “Whoa, this is not even a full (05:20):
undefined
time job. This is multiplepeople.“ I'm not the most avid
user of the word funnel, I lovea funnel, I respect funnel, but
I don't use it a lot in myeveryday vocabulary. But to us,
we feel like we've got the most,we've got this beautiful funnel
where people start as a studentand become a client.
Sarah Spence (05:40):
What made you actually take that jump, I guess
when you, you know, were tappedon the shoulder and like brought
in house etc. What made you gofrom that and your safe employed
roles to starting your ownthing?
Cherie Clonan (05:52):
It's the obvious that I think any probably, I
just hear this story in so manyworking parents stories, but it
was a really non familyfriendly, you know, return to
work where suddenly, I just, Iwas acutely aware that I was
going to be expected to pull thesame 12 plus 14 ish hour days.
But the difference is, I wasn'tthe same person returning to
(06:15):
that seat, you know, and I had ababy with, you know, a young
baby, I think I returned to workwhen my son was 10 weeks old, so
pumped full of hormones, badchoices, let me tell you. And,
you know, he had reflux, he hadblisters all the way down his
(06:35):
throat, he cried all day long.And the crying only stopped when
he went to sleep, you know. Sothere was no reprieve. And I was
struggling. And I just knew Isat in that seat and I thought
I'm going to, and I say this ininverted commas to like, "let
you down", I'm not going to hitit, like I used to hit it
(06:56):
before. So that definitelyfactored in. And, you know, the
reintroduction to the workforcepost, you know, parental leave
wasn't amazing at all, actuallywas the polar freaking opposite.
And then the other factor atplay was just way, way back
before that day, I sat in therelevant tertiary
qualifications, and I rememberwaiting to be taught how to
(07:16):
practically do my job, and itnever happened. And I thought
there's a gap in the markethere. And I knew back then as a
student, racking up 10s of 1000sof dollars of debt, to not even
know how to literally put a paidads campaign together or put a
strategy together from start tofinish or, you know, just the
practical things. And I thought,one day when I have enough
(07:37):
experience, credibility, justall the things I was waiting
for, you know, I'm gonna launchin and teach that all sort of
collided, like a non familyfriendly to return to work the
knowing that one day I'll teachthis, you know, and so I did, I
launched into it in October2014, no business plan, telling
(07:59):
my husband, I'm just going toteach a couple of social media
workshops on a weekend and seehow it all works out, it's
working out. So who would havethunk it?
Sarah Spence (08:11):
So hang on a sec, I just want to pause. Cherie,
and The Digital Picnic didsomething there that at first
thought most people wouldn'tthink would actually work. They
were teaching people, but thenoffering to do for them the
thing that they're just taughtthem. And that's a whole thing
about digital marketing. It'scomplex, it's big, it's a whole
(08:32):
team thing. You can't just do itas an individual. And when
people find that out, well, itdoes make more sense to hand it
over. And the cost makes moresense too and when you think
about it that way, suddenly,that doesn't sound like a
strange idea. But it's not theonly winning formula for TDP.
There's something else,something radically different.
Cherie Clonan (08:55):
Ah, I don't know sometimes in those, you know,
vulnerable neurodivergentmoments. I wonder am I
approaching this the wrong way?I don't know. But I can't be
anything other than radicallyauthentic, radically
transparent, just yeah,radically real. All of the
radicals really. I want to walkthe walk and show people. I
(09:21):
don't want to be that agencythat leaves their own socials to
the very bottom of the prioritylist. Like we prioritize us as
if we were a client, we treatourselves as if we were a client
and we show our clients whatwe're made of every day. You
know, and so instead of postingonce a month with a “Hi, this is
Brian. Brian loves coffee, SEOand his Cavoodle please sign up
(09:44):
to our SEO packages, link inbio," you know that will just
literally never be us. That isso freakin' boring. I know
you're a subscriber to the samelike philosophies, like no more
Brian man, like come on. So whatwe do instead is we just, you
know, we wear our contentmarketing hearts on our social
media sleeves and we just sharethe living bejesus out of us,
(10:09):
you know, and I'm respectful tomy team. I've got a big team of
introverts, but we still, yeah,we just we show up and share us.
It's very humanized, it'sprogressive, it's loud, it's
proud, it's different. And I'mproud of our differences online.
Sarah Spence (10:23):
Sure, we could talk about this for hours, but
how do you feel that theindustry has changed? Or is it
not even worth talking aboutbecause it's just so different?
Cherie Clonan (10:33):
It's so different, and the industry was
going to change anyway. Buthaven't we lived through our,
like, particular lifetime withone in 100 year type situations
going on that generations beyondus, you know, apparently won't
kind of live, you know, through.So I think our industry was
always going to change anyway,it's literally digital, but
(10:55):
COVID and, you know, this yearas well, it's just changing so
much about the industry that I'min, but the truth is, I guess,
knowing all of that, I wouldsay, I think I'm the right
person for this industry,because I love change. Even as
an autistic woman, apparently,we don't like change. I don't
like (11:11):
Dave, don't change my cutlery, let's go to the same
restaurant every Saturday, let'ssit at the same freakin' table,
book it at the same time,because I want the same
predictable acoustics going on,let me tell you, but by the way,
I'm down for changing digitalstrategies, you know, as
required, and so on literallyall year round.
Sarah Spence (11:30):
Yeah. And I'd say, you know, from what I know of
you as well, that you're alsoincredibly well suited to
leading a team through thatchange. Because that's, that's a
whole other thing to actuallybeing okay with the change, but
then leading a team and agencyand your clients and your
audience, you're learningeducation audience through that,
(11:50):
as well, it's a whole otherkettle of fish. Okay, how about
the future, then? Where do yousee us going in the future?
Cherie Clonan (11:57):
The truth is, I don't actually know where this
industry is headed, I'd belying, I'd be Nostradamus, and
so on, like, I guess I'm gonnaput hopes in instead. I hope
that it continues to head to adirection where people seem to
build more and more respect forwhat we're doing. And I would
especially like to see a pointwhere they're willing to pay
(12:17):
more for that, because I don'tthink we're there yet. I think
the respect is building, but Ithink people are, like, really
respect you, but holy shit,that's far too much. Bring it
down, you know, and we're stillthere. And that's not fair.
Because I, from my perspective,I'm expected to somehow find a
way to continue to possibly, youknow, increase in X, Y, Z ways.
(12:40):
So I would like to see just acontinued growth of the, you
know, the respect for the peopleworking in this industry, and
you know, what they're doing forit. Outside of that, I just
don't know, I think every singlemonth something changes, so much
like who would have ever thoughtthat there was ever going to be
a month where TikTok had moresearch than Google, you know,
(13:02):
for example, I would never haveseen that coming. AI is just,
you know it better than I do, itis going to completely transform
this industry. And outside ofthat, my only other prediction
is that I really do think thatmore and more brands,
organizations, and so on, areprobably going to bring
marketing like as in organic, inhouse, more, and they're going
(13:24):
to need education. And you know,they'll end up outsourcing more
on the specialized services thateven if they brought them in
house, they're relying on a,like I say this in inverted
commas, but “unicorn“ to somehowbring that home. And I just, I
think that's not really fair,you know, so I think you'd
probably be better offoutsourcing to a team of specialists.
Sarah Spence (13:47):
On your point around the value increasing or
the perception of valueincreasing of what we do, I
would absolutely love that tohappen as well. My concern at
the moment is that AI andparticularly ChatGPT it's
obviously going to have a bigimpact. We can talk a bit about
that in a second too. But I hopethat brands particularly
(14:07):
continue to see the value in thehuman creativity and in the
strategy and also in theoutsider's perspective, because
there's a lot of great thingsthat incredibly experienced
people can do in house, inteams, and we see that all the
time across all our clients. Butan outsider's perspective is so
important. So I'm hopeful thatwhat will mostly I guess
(14:31):
continue to be seen as reallyvaluable is that the strategy
and the creativity and then ofcourse the kind of overflow of
being able to make that happen.They can you know, hopefully
also use us.
Cherie Clonan (14:42):
I couldn't agree more. I just hope that people
are aware. You know, for theones who are sitting there,
heart pounding a little bitthinking is AI going to take my
job? I just want to scream fromthe rooftops: no. The human
being who knows how to masterthe prompts and you know, just
literally master AI is gonna bethe one that takes your job. So
it's gonna be a human who knowshow to use AI to do their jobs
(15:04):
better that will take your job,not AI.
Sarah Spence (15:07):
And I mean, the thing is, yeah, with chat GPT,
or any of the kind of any AImodels these days, especially
those accessing those largelanguage models. Ultimately, it
comes down to the fact that whatwe are asking of it, regardless
of how good the prompt is, iswhat we're asking of it, is that
it's kind of given thestatistical distribution of
(15:29):
words in everything that youhave been fed with, what words
are those most likely to followa particular question or a
particular prompt that we'reputting in there, that's...
that's all it is. That's allit's actually good for. It
speaks with such confidence backto us. It's a whole
confabulation, you know, anuntruth presented confidently as
(15:52):
the truth. And that's what Ifeel like it it is. And it's
wonderful. And I absolutely loveit. And we're using it. But
we're really careful about howwe're using it.
Cherie Clonan (16:00):
It reminds me of sitting in corporate boardrooms
listening to someone speak soconfidently. We've all worked
with that person, we canprobably visualize them in our
heads right now. And I'm like,You sound confident, but you're
shit.
Sarah Spence (16:10):
Yeah. Yes. But further to that point, I guess
in talking about brands and whatthey value, what are the biggest
mistakes, I guess, oropportunities, whichever way you
want to put it, are you seeingthat brands are making when it
comes to digital marketing? Ithink especially, you know,
relevant this year in 2023, aswe are in this economic
(16:31):
downturn, and I think whatperhaps is a relevant answer to
this question, even six monthsago, would be different to now.
Cherie Clonan (16:38):
I mean, I'll go in really biassed here. And
because I obviously am headingup an agency that specializes in
paid, I think the mistake thatwe're seeing a lot in this
climate is people thinking paidis the solution to all of their
problems, you know, that theycan pull this one lever, and
suddenly their P&L will look alot healthier. And I just think
(17:01):
we are so integrity learned thatwe can sniff that out within
seconds of speaking to aprospective client, and it's a
no from us, because I don't wantto go down with that ship, you
know, and I don't want them tothink that TDP are the reason
that they failed, you know, youwould know better than I do that
there's just so many things thatled them to this place where
paid was never going to work forthem right down to the web
(17:22):
experience, the product, theoffering, you know, and so on.
And I'm not going to say that weonly do paid. But that is what
we do. And we represent paid ina really good way. And we do
really big things for ourclients, you know, but we need
lots of the other things to beworking before we do that, and I
don't want to expand my agencyto you know, 70-100 people to be
(17:47):
able to go so holistic to getthem, you know, to a spot where
it's like, don't worry if it'sshit, we'll fix it at this step,
and that, and that, before youget to paid, I don't want to be
that big. I want to just stay inmy lane, I love paid, I love the
impacts that it can have on abusiness and you know, so on,
but yeah, just people thinkingthat paid is the solution is
quite dangerous.
(18:07):
And I think they're gonna getsold a pipe dream from people
lacking integrity, the way thatwe do where they'll get a yes
from them after a no from us.You know, that's the big thing
that we're seeing. And what wewould love to tell everyone is
for us to get to the yes,there's not a lot of levers that
you'd need to pull, you know,before we said: you're ready.
(18:28):
And it's like, respectingorganic organic SMM, you know,
the way that that will reduceyour paid ads dollars in terms
of being able to put the moreonto warm audiences than like
super, super cold, that's soexpensive. And I don't want to
play with too many of those coldcold dollars. Because yeah,
we'll get results because like,of course, we just threw 10K at
(18:48):
it, it's bloody expensive. I'dmuch rather play around with
warm dollars and warm dollars,you know, come for us leads,
that have bucketloads of respectfor organic social media.
They've got something consistentgoing on. It's good. They're
regularly, you know, leadingpeople to their website, the web
experience is good, I guesseducating themselves and saying
(19:10):
I, I can do better than this.
Sarah Spence (19:13):
Just talking about the kind of current climate like
what we saw to begin with was,brands really bedding down into
those longer term strategies ofwhich we do here at Content
Copywriting, the kind of longerterm SEO and content marketing
strategies. But then in the lastfew months, I think as things
have got even tighter, there'sbeen a big shift towards: no, we
(19:33):
just need fast action and fastresults. But I am worried also
about the impact of that shortterm thinking.
Cherie Clonan (19:40):
Yeah, it's sometimes that we're not asking
for more in terms of whatthey're paying. It's just like,
help us meet, you know, thissocial platform where it's
currently at, and sometimes theythink: Christ, I'm paying to get
bossed around by this crew andwe're like no were just hero in
your best practice strategylike: We want you to win. When
(20:01):
you win, we win. We do getpushed back: I can't afford
more, I haven't got more time,I'm paying you, you need to do
this, you know, and so on. Butit starts with those kinds of
statements. And because we'reteachers as well as
practitioners, we can alwaysteach them out of that, you
know, fixed kind of mindset. Andwe can usually bring most
around, you know, and say hey,we're just, help us help you.
(20:25):
This year, especially, and allof 2022 transformed our
industry. So I'm talking moresocial media marketing, to be
honest, but digital, too. Butthe conversations we're having
with clients is they can see,they can see right in front of
their very eyes, just how muchsocial platforms transformed in
the space of literally 12months. And anyone who can't
(20:49):
recognize how much moreexpensive it is to show up to
these social platforms in a bestpractice way is head in the
sand. They know, they're juststicking their head in the sand.
Now, you know, for example,let's just use Instagram as a
social platform. That's becomefour platforms in one. And it is
the least profitable work we arecurrently doing in terms of like
(21:10):
offering organic social mediamanagement, because of how much
these platforms are changing.Because we recognize trying to
bump up retainers, to meet howmuch it costs to manage this.
Well, it pushes retainers to apoint where maybe people
wouldn't even have ongoingconversations with us anymore.
So we're taking things out, butit does chip away, you know, at
(21:33):
best practice, and so more thanever, now we're focusing on
educating so that we can teachour clients to do more in house
in collaboration with us.
Sarah Spence (21:44):
To do marketing, full stop. Well. Is actually, is
such a bigger undertaking, thanI think anyone really realizes.
And we want to work inpartnership with our brands and
our clients. But if theyobviously can't afford to pay
for that to happen, then it'sabsolutely critical that we're
(22:06):
supporting them to build thoseskills internally. Do you feel
like a solely, I mean, you kindof already answered, but a
solely social focused, social,organic, and social paid,
focused strategy is sufficient?
Cherie Clonan (22:20):
I just really think is that omni experience
this year, and maybe peoplelistening will be like...damn
it. So I mean, omni, yeah,absolutely, but do what you can
afford and resource and so on.And if you're looking for
quicker, I'm not gonna sayquick, but quicker, you know,
wins, then just really try tonail the few tiny quick wins
(22:43):
that you can to just scale alittle bit to build out to that,
obviously, like holy grail ofthe omni experience, but I don't
want things to compete. Like itshould all just work, you know,
in collaboration together. Irecently spoke at an event where
one piece of advice was to pullaway from paid completely. And I
just thought (23:02):
Oh, that's a bigger assertion, you know, and
I, I disagree with that. But Irespectfully disagree with that.
And I thought, let's not competehere, because me coming from
paid, I can complement what youdo. And when you're nailing it
our paid Ads campaigns do somuch better. So yeah, I just, I
really hope that people can lookat this climate, I know, it's a
(23:25):
more intimidating one, trust me,I, I sit with the same like,
sort of, you know, moments weekto week where I'm like, please,
what, just get us to 2024please.
Sarah Spence (23:36):
Let's just stop here for a second and recap.
Because what Cherie and I havejust given you, I think, is
quite a masterclass in digitalcontent. It's so hard to predict
the future. And we've seen thatdefinitely with the onslaught of
AI development this year. Thingsare literally changing by the
minute. And then we've gottighter budgets on top of that,
(23:56):
and also trying to balance theneed to invest for when times do
get better. This is an issue forboth brands, and small
businesses, and freelancers too.But of course, there's another
factor in all of this, thepeople who make up the agency.
Cherie has crafted a workplacethat actively goes against the
reputation that some of the moretraditional agencies in our
(24:17):
space have for being just, well,a bit toxic. Instead, it's a
culture that encouragesauthenticity and creativity. And
it's something that I have takena hell of a lot of inspiration
from over the years, even beforeI had met Cherie. So I wanted to
know, from someone who has doneit, if this incredible type of
culture can really become thenorm in our industry. And I put
(24:40):
myself in that boat, you know,I've built an incredible culture
that I'm really proud of. Andthat's why I had to ask her this
question.
Do you think that, especially intimes like we're in at the
moment, I guess, can people overprofit truly lead to better
outcomes for employees, clientsand business owners? Or are we
(25:03):
fighting a losing battle?
Cherie Clonan (25:05):
Gosh, it's such a good question. You asked, can it
be people over profit and can ithave good outcomes for people
and so on and, I'm like, yes,yes. And then when you said
business I'm like, not really.Um, look, I am people over
profit, but I promise I take thehits big time. I would be making
so much more if I cared so muchless about people. So I don't, I
(25:29):
can't answer this honestly,that, you know, if you choose
the people over profit game,just be prepared for the fact
that you, I'm gonna be loweredinto the ground with them,
millions of dollars less thanothers and I couldn't care less.
I definitely financially takehits every single week because
of my approach and I'll neverchange it, because I am big on
legacy. And I want to make surethat I've, as to the best of my
(25:54):
ability, done the best thing Ican for the people that I employ
throughout my professionallifetime. I will say there are
two people that are becomingmore important in that equation.
It's my two children who aregrowing up in a time where I
just can't see how our kids areever going to own a freakin'
house, you know. So I amstarting to shake it up a bit
and say (26:12):
Hey, Cherie, there's two other stakeholders that
you're not factoring in here,so, you know, don't forget your
two children. As for theindustry. I'm an industry
disrupter, but I'm still...honestly I'm not perfect. I
reckon I'd have weeks, monthsand so on where I'm toxic, I'm
just as toxic as the rest ofthis bloody industry is, you
know, I'm a prolific peoplepleaser, and that's toxic within
(26:36):
itself. I'm still fighting thegood fight with regards to
overwork, and so on and reducingand trying to make the
differentiation more obviousbetween hunger and hustle, you
know, and it is a weeklyfreakin' battle. But the truth
is, I think the really shitpoisonous toxic folk within this
industry never even get toFriday, reflecting on any of
(26:58):
that.
Sarah Spence (26:59):
I think something you and I have both experienced
in building these, these reallylovely cultures is that it's
really hard to keep it up allthe time, as you've just
mentioned, but also, it can'tjust be it's nice all the time
and, you know, you're only goingto have, you know, not that much
(27:20):
work on all the time, and we'regoing to have space for
creativity all the time. Andthat's been a really interesting
transition for me to lead withthe team. Because people
especially who started with us,it was not the best change for
them, because they came into aplace where we were really
cruisy, and we really had a lotof space for that. But as the
(27:41):
business has grown and gotbusier and busier, I definitely
still prescribe to, actually Iwas gonna say people over
profit, but what I'd like to sayI prescribe to these days is
people and profit.
Cherie Clonan (27:54):
Our tagline is that we're apparently the nicest
place on the internet. That wasour tagline developed by our own
clients, students, and so on.And as you heard me say, Sarah,
on our recent LeadershipRetreat, sometimes TDP is not
the nicest place on theinternet. Sometimes we're
rolling up our sleeves andreporting week getting our asses
served to us on a platter, youknow. Other times we are under
(28:15):
resourced because there's justbeen sick leave after sick leave
because of COVID. And yeah,those weeks suck, and they're
hustle. And that's when we'renot the nicest place on the
internet but I'll just keepdoing my best and hope that I'm
raising a team of leaders who'llkeep representing the best of
this industry to the best thatthey can.
Sarah Spence (28:36):
How can we balance people and profit without
leaning into that toxic space ofdemanding more from everyone
every day? For Cherie to talkabout that with me, while also
recognizing for herself howshe's trying to change those
toxic habits that we've all beenexposed to, it's just so honest
and vulnerable. And that bringsme to this final chapter in our
(29:00):
story. It's something you've hada little sneak peek at along the
way. And something both Cherieand I share in different ways.
We're going back to why Cherieis rebelliously different, both
in her work, her business and inwho she is.
Cherie Clonan (29:15):
I was never not going to be anything other than
radically different. Like, I wasradically different from
freakin' primary school when Icouldn't figure out my
neurotypical peers and, youknow, I just, it became more and
more obvious as time went onthat I was really different to
others, you know. So back to theblogging days, you know, I just
kept realizing maybe through thepattern recognition, people kept
(29:38):
leaving the same comments on myblog: Oh my god, I've never seen
someone write this way. I'venever felt like I've known a
complete stranger better thanwhat I read this, you know. And
it was just the same comments tothe point of like, please don't
get me wrong when I say this, Iam so grateful for that
commentary, but it was almostpredictably boring. You know, it
would be the same comments afterthe same, and I'm like, I know.
(30:03):
But I didn't want to bearrogant. I don't think I'm
actually a great writer. That'sthe truth. It's not anything to
do with arrogance, I'm justwriting the way that my brain is
designed to speak to people. Soright from the blogging days, I
was like, whatever I do, I'mgoing to be different in this
industry, it's just going tofeel different. So pushing
forward to becoming the agencyowner here at The Digital
(30:25):
Picnic, we end up having areally different presence,
because of a lot of these thingsthat my brain just can't do
anything other than be reallydifferent in its approach, and
we as a result, I have a reallydifferent team than a lot of
other agencies, you know. Iattract, honestly, in my humble
opinion, better people. Some ofthem make sacrifices to be here
(30:47):
because they want to be here.I've got people from large
corporates moving away frommassive corporate salaries that
are three times as much as me,you know, and they say, I'm over
here, because I want to be apart of this. And even now,
eight years later, our followersreally, really feel like they
know us and they back us, andthey're the people who sat in
marketing professional rolesduring COVID when we lost 76% of
(31:10):
our client portfolio overnight,and they said: Hey, have you got
room to take on this 100Kgovernment tender? And I was
like, fuck, yes! You know,please save my business, you
know. So and they did thatbecause they just freakin' love
us and wouldn't have even knownthe role that they played in
getting us out of the reallyuncomfortable spot way back
(31:31):
then.
Sarah Spence (31:32):
You're proudly autistic. I'm an ADHD-er. We are
members of one of the best clubsgoing around, I think, but as we
both know our neuro divergenceposes plenty of ongoing daily
challenges, even so it does meanour brains do tend to work in
some pretty incredible ways attimes. What do you love most
(31:52):
about your beautiful autisticbrain?
Cherie Clonan (31:55):
You know, I hear about other people sharing
stories about things that theystruggle with and I just think I
can't relate. That isn't mystruggle because of my autistic
brain. I have the bestrelationship with my kids, like
it's... I love the way I mumbecause of my autistic brain.
I'm fun. I'm funny. I'm a bitchaotic. I'm dark humoured. I'm
(32:20):
continuously meeting them wherethey're at, like my son's
heading into his teenage years.And I'm still there with him.
And I'm somehow continuing toengage with him when my friends
are talking about their kidspulling away in really big ways.
And it's just because I'mmeeting him with seriously dark
humor. And humor that suits teenboys. You know, there's not a
(32:42):
single week that I go throughthis life where I think: thanks,
autism, but also fuck youautism. There are so many weeks
where I'm like, God damn, I paidan autistic tax there. I'm not
going to discount that or, youknow, discredit, but, you know,
when you asked about the thingsthat I love most about my
autistic brain, it's just, thereare so many things that I really
do, every single week take forgranted and life feels in so
(33:07):
many ways that feel like, fromwhat I'm hearing from lots and
lots of neurotypical friends,colleagues, you know, you get
the gist. Their challenges Ican't relate to. As an autistic
person, a lot of us can relateto having special interests. And
my special interest is people.And it always has been I'm
fascinated by people. And Ithink that's why I don't
(33:30):
struggle as an organizationalleader as much as others do,
because at the crux of it, I'vegot this really intense special
interest in people, you know.I'm really good at recognizing
patterns in everything, like theshitty thing about that, is Dave
can't take me to any moviebecause I've called it five
minutes in, like, okay,predictable as fuck, you know,
(33:52):
and he's like, Cherie, you'rekillin' me kid, you know. But
the pattern recognition helps inother ways, where i'll walk into
a new group, and I'm sorry tosay, but I spot the nark and I'm
like eww straightaway, I'm like,uh, you know, and, and my
friends are like they're Great,I'm like, in my head i am: no,
(34:13):
they're not. And six monthslater, they're like, that person
was terrible. I'm like, uhm,it's just those moments. I just,
I just love that patternrecognition so much I spot these
micro things that matter topeople, I can spot when someone
has their feelings hurt in aliteral microsecond and I just
want to jump across and hugthem. You know, I have just this
(34:34):
abundance of empathy where I'mlike, you just got your feelings
hurt, and this could berectified if you both just did
this, but you don't, so do youwant a hug? Yes, I am a disabled
woman. I am. There are reallysome hard things about my
disability, there really is,even just financially, but so
many other things as well. Butthere's not also a single week
(34:55):
where I'm just like, I love thisbrain. Thanks, Dad.
Sarah Spence (34:58):
I'm on such a journey with with accepting my
brain and doing that thing thatis so often... I now understand
the process that comes from latein life diagnosis of, it's a
grief grieving process really,of going back over your entire
life and going (35:11):
Oh, I see Oh, yes. Okay, I understand that now
within this framing. And I justlove where you've got to, and
I'm sure it's an ongoingpractice, but to be framing
those challenges from theperspective of the positives
that they also give you. And Idefinitely, I feel that way as
well about my brain sometimesand others, when I just can't
(35:33):
find those shoes that I was sureI'd left there, or I've promised
something to the kids and thenI've completely forgotten that I
promised it to them. And all ofthose things, I still find a bit
challenging. I also wanted tosay, does it make your team, or
people you are able to do this,too deeply uncomfortable when
you know, you can see that splitsecond, that flicker in their
eyes, that slight change of bodylanguage? And you call it out
(35:56):
for them? Does it make themreally uncomfortable? Because I
do that too and I could just seepeople go: Oh, God, she saw me,
that's so annoying.
Cherie Clonan (36:03):
Oh, yeah, I stopped doing it because it just
doesn't get a good response. Andit's not that I'm hiding from
the pattern recognition. ButI've just learned that they
don't like it called in themoment for my team, it's just my
team. I just don't think peopleare ready for my very quick like
pattern recognition in thatregard. And I don't want to make
(36:25):
people feel uncomfortable.Instead, I just right use the
gift of pattern recognition andjust surprise and delight with
maybe solution like in adifferent way, a week or two
from now.
Sarah Spence (36:36):
Absolutely. And I, you know, I have an ADHD-er,
really quite, quite profoundstruggles with impulsivity. And
it's really hard for me not to,and often it's come out of my
mouth before I've had the chanceto even process it. And so I'm
on a path to gaining a betterpractice with that, because I
(36:57):
love the impact that seeingthose patterns can have, but I
want to go about it in a moreconstructive way.
Cherie Clonan (37:04):
I just want to hug you right now through the
screen because I just, I dorelate, like I know, I
understand. And just the pathfor the late diagnosed folk,
it's just a journey of like,absolute radical self
forgiveness. That's the only wayI could just get to a better
spot.
Sarah Spence (37:22):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's the gift that
we are able to give though toour kids and their generation,
is the awareness and theempowerment of that awareness in
their younger years.
Cherie Clonan (37:35):
You know what, I'm raising an autistic son who
doesn't like people, you know,he is honestly, we could
stereotype him very easily.Really doesn't enjoy being
around people, or only has asort of small circle of people
who he finds like interesting.Honestly, we could easily put
him into the stereotypical thingthat a lot of people think is
(37:57):
autism in the workplace. He's asolo kind of dude. And I love
that he's gonna walk in knowingthat so much about himself and
do what he needs to do with thatknowledge. Now, me, I'm a
special like, not special.What's the word, like I'm, I'm a
different brand of autismbecause I've just learnt and
through formal identificationthat I'm PDA, which is by its
description, you know,pathological demand, avoidant.
(38:20):
But we instead you know, a moreneuro affirming approach, or
description of it apparently, isa persistent drive for autonomy.
All of that doesn't matter. Onething about PDA autistic folk is
our absolute special interest inpeople. I don't want to go into
too much because I certainlyonly am at the early days of my
(38:41):
understanding, and it just, whenI learned this, it made sense of
autistic me because I couldn'tfigure out why, why do I, even
as a deep, deep introvert, whydo I love people so much? You
know, even when they're shit,I'm like you are so interesting.
How do you be so shit? And itis, it's my PDA profile. So only
(39:02):
as recently as last week, we gotthis horrible comment on TDP
socials where they said (39:05):
you're faking your autism to
financially benefit. And Ithought, far out mate, like,
look at my salary, you've got noidea how much I am not
financially benefiting from my'tism. And it's ableist I've I
would have argued, probablyinternalized ableism. And they
must be thinking, but, but youcan't because you're show up,
(39:25):
you present on stages, you dothis, you do that, you lead a
team, you can't be autistic. AndI'm like: Yes, I can. For me,
it's the PDA situation. I knowfor folks who are autistic, who
aren't PDA, are also justexcellent people, managers
pattern recognition, deep, deep,deep levels of empathy. So much
(39:46):
empathy we can't articulate it,which is why neurotypicals think
we don't have it. You know,there's just so much at play
because we are just so capableif we're given the respect that
we deserve and not held to theselike limiting beliefs about what
autism is in a workplace.
Sarah Spence (40:02):
Exactly, there is so much at play. There's
definitely no rule book. Prettymuch every single assumption
that society has ever had of anytype of neurodivergent brain is
probably representative of about1% of all the neurodiverse
profiles that there are. Idefinitely grew up thinking that
ADHD was that boy who couldn'tsit still in a classroom. I love
(40:25):
the visual in my head that I nowhave, that a neurodivergent
brain has like this big soundboard. You know, that sound
mixing board in a recordingstudio that has lots of
different dials and levers. Butit goes on for miles. Everybody
has different preferences acrosssuch a huge range of things.
(40:46):
There's definitely no singlerepresentation of ADHD or autism
or any of the otherneurodivergent profiles. And
unfortunately, there is so muchnegative discourse about it
right now, especially about howpeople are faking it. But that's
certainly not been myexperience, or Cherie's. And
what's interesting here is thatCherie and I, are inextricably
(41:07):
linked in a way that I justnever realized. We both can't
not agitate for change. We bothcan't not push forward and
innovate. It simply is who weare, and how our brains work.
And I'm just so glad that weboth landed in an industry and
in roles and in businesses,where that's exactly what's
(41:29):
needed.
Thanks for joining me on thisjourney. If you want to stay
rebellious in how you practicemarketing, how you show up in
your workplace and how you liveyour life, please subscribe to
the Content Rebels wherever youlisten to your podcasts. This
podcast was recorded on Awabakaland Darkinjung Country. Produced
(41:51):
by Pod and Pen productions.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.