August 9, 2023 • 40 mins
Have you thought about adding influencers to your marketing toolbox? We don’t need to tell you that influencers are big business now, but what you may not know is how they can amplify your marketing campaigns. On today’s episode Sarah Spence talks to Danielle Lewis from Scrunch about all things to do with the creator economy.
In this episode you’ll learn:
- How influencers came to be a thing
- The best way to approach the use of influencers in your marketing
- Why influencers can be an economical and powerful force in marketing
- Where the future of the creator economy is heading.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Spence (00:02):
Kim Kardashian, Kylie Jenner and Taylor Swift
welcome to the glamorous worldof the influencer marketing, but
behind the big sunglasses andthe Oh, so not subtle brand
placement is a lot of hard workfor some very smart people. So
let's talk to one of them. Hi,I'm Sarah Spence, I grew a
(00:23):
Content Agency from just me to20 people inside two years. So
you'd think I'd have my shittogether. And even though I try
to come at everything with arebellious curiosity, I've been
so focused on growing thisthing, that I'm a bit behind in
the trends. Join me on thisjourney to find out what's
actually happening in the worldof marketing. Welcome to the
(00:45):
content rebels.
Ever wondered how much influenceinfluencers actually have? And
how do they build their audienceor even come up with the right
content? Well wonder no morebecause on today's episode of
the content rebels, we'retalking to someone who runs a
global community forinfluencers. But the glitz and
(01:05):
glamour of influencer life isnot where it started for my
guest, Danielle Lewis, No, forDanielle it all started with a
fashion blog. In fact, it wasthrough creating her blog,
Brisbane Threads that Daniellesaw the potential for online
businesses and digitalmarketing. Now, Danielle is the
CEO and co founder of Scrunch aglobal community for creators
(01:25):
and influencers. She's also thefounder of the Sparks Founders
Programme that offers coursesand coaching for female
founders.
Danielle Lewis (01:33):
Thank you so much for having me.
Sarah Spence (01:35):
And she's on a journey to help influencers and
reduce her coffee intake
Danielle Lewis (01:40):
I'm on one cup a day, which is so sad because I
love drinking coffee.
Sarah Spence (01:44):
Coffee Jokes aside, isn't it interesting that
where Danielle began -fashion,blogging, and tech, makes for a
perfect foundation for what shedoes now in the creator and
influencer space. But there wasno way to see that pathway back
then. Influences weren't even athing. So what I wanted to know
from Danielle first up, was ifshe had a sense of a particular
(02:06):
pathway of where she washeading.
Danielle Lewis (02:09):
I had no sense of anything. So no, I literally,
it's funny on reflection, itdoes make a lot of sense. You
know it being a blogger 10 yearsago, God it was probably longer
than that now. But being ablogger all of those years ago,
and it all coming full circleand running a company that is
(02:30):
also to its creators andinfluences it, it does make a
lot of sense on reflection. Butif I think about the journey, I
do really feel like it's justbeen falling into opportunities,
or, you know, having a brainwave and trying out new things.
Some work, some didn't work. Soyeah, there was no real pathway.
It was really just a matter ofputting one foot in front of the
(02:53):
other and getting up when wefall down.
Sarah Spence (02:56):
Or as I'd like to say it's say yes, and then
figure out the details later.
Danielle Lewis (03:01):
Oh, yeah, I'm a sales person by trade. So I
always say yes. much toeveryone's dismay.
Sarah Spence (03:07):
Look at where it's got you. It's a fantastic
journey. And how did youactually do that jump? Uh, what
was the first point at which itactually became you know,
influencer marketing, in yourview? What did it all look like
back then?
Danielle Lewis (03:20):
So I was a blogger. And that's so I have a
co founder title. So I actuallystarted Scrunch with another
person, because I actually hadthe blog and they had a retail
store. And I went into the storeto sell them advertising on my
blog. And that's how we met andthen started Scrunch. And you
would think that it was a linearpath to being an influencer
marketing company. But in fact,we did not launch an influencer
(03:43):
marketing company first. Welaunched this fashion discovery
platform that went nowhere, andwas going to be having to build,
being built on advertisingrevenue, which is a long, hard
slog. And so then we built thisinventory tracking solution. At
that time, when we were tryingto sell it into fashion labels.
They were like, nah we have a anintern that works for free.
(04:06):
They'll do that stuff. We won'tpay for software. Those
platforms exist today, though.So had we kept down that path
you never know. And then we didmedia monitoring. And it was
kind of like this funny momentof we had this amazing tech
team. And then the marketshifted where the first blogger
made a million dollars like itwas this big Hoo Haa because
(04:28):
bloggers existed and I was ablogger, but we didn't really
put two and two together likeInstagram wasn't around yet. It
was really blogs, Facebook,Twitter, and then Instagram kind
of came out and bloggers werereally making serious cash
sitting front row in fashionshows. And it was kind of this
like moment like this meltingpot where it was like it just
(04:49):
made sense to double down on theinfluencer marketing piece. So
it was pivot, pivot pivot, untilwe finally you know, looked at
what we had and went oh my god Ithink influencer marketing is
the thing.
Sarah Spence (05:02):
So what did it actually look like back then
like you're talking here about aplatform and things were you
there as the conduit betweenpeople who you are meeting out
and about who were those peoplewho were sitting front row and
you were helping them to buildtheir business and connect them
to brands? Or was it just a puretech play? Like, What did it
actually look like?
Danielle Lewis (05:20):
So we service brands probably a little bit
better than we service creators.And it's something that we're
trying to adjust. Now, now thatwe have this concept of the
Creator economy, which is goingwild. There's a real focus on
the fact that anyone can be acreator. But you do have to
treat it as a business, not justposting things on Instagram and
(05:42):
getting sponsored posts. Becausewe've gone through so many
iterations of ideas andtechnology, when we had the idea
to become an influencerplatform, I was so sick of
software developers taking solong to build anything that we
actually launched the agency armof Scrunch to kind of service
things first. So that's whyScrunch agency exists today,
(06:05):
because I was over waiting. Sowhat we decided to do was
actually deliver everything wewanted to deliver in the
software manually. So an agencymodel. And it's so funny, I
reflect on the first customer wehad under that model and how
much we did for them for like nomoney, because we were kind of
trying to mimic it being in thesoftware. It was really
(06:26):
interesting, though, becauseessentially, we were our own
first customers. So we couldbring revenue in the door by
doing it manually through anagency. But we could also give
real time feedback to oursoftware engineers and tell them
exactly what to build in theproduct. Software technology
does take time, but we stillhave both sides of the business
today. So we have people thatwill come in, use the software,
(06:48):
self-serve, do their own thing,find influences, happy days. And
then we have other clients whoare like nah, do it all for me.
So yeah, both sides still exist,but they're a lot more polished.
And yeah, seamless, I guesstoday.
Sarah Spence (07:03):
Thinking about it from that perspective. It's
actually almost like you, willyou have created a marketplace.
And you're matching that supplyand demand on both sides. There,
It's a complete sidebar but it'sso interesting to me the rise of
marketplace companies, you'vegot Airbnb, obviously, and
Camplify and Hi-Pages and thosekind of bigger ones. But
(07:23):
actually there is a supply anddemand and a need and a desire
for for all sorts of differentmarketplaces even on a smaller
scale, which, you know, perhapsthis is, but it's yeah, it's a
really interesting businessmodel.
Danielle Lewis (07:37):
Totally. And it's really interesting because
one of the questions we got frominvestors in the early days was,
how are you going to attractinfluencers and creators? How
are you going to get them, andnobody else gets them? And the
interesting thing is, that's oneside where we don't compete with
our competitors becauseinfluencers want as much work as
possible. So they'll actually goout and put themselves on ten
(07:58):
platforms and take the differentcampaigns. So it is really your
right. Having a marketplace is areally interesting strategy
because they are allmicro-businesses, and all
micro-businesses need to makemore money.
Sarah Spence (08:12):
Yeah, good point. So you're really you don't have
any supply issues on the creatorand influencer side. It's really
driving the supply on the brandside and the campaign side,
that's kind of more, you know,from that point, when you were
doing it pretty manually, andyou're having to convince brands
to even want to talk toinfluences. What have been the
changes that you've seen? Thebiggest ones, I guess.
Danielle Lewis (08:34):
You know, in the early days of any business, it
is all about brand recognition.And, of course, in my previous
life, when I was in a corporatesales job, I had a big brand
name behind me. So I'd pick upthe phone and be like, Hi, and
people wouldn't hang up on me.And in the early days of Scrunch
no one knows you. So there was alot of hustle on our own
(08:55):
marketing strategy right around,you know, creating content,
getting people to understandwhat influencer marketing was
and why we were the best personto deliver it. So we have the
benefit of time now because wewere one of the first ones that
were out there. We've built upso much brand recognition. We
have so much content on theinternet it is ridiculous. So
(09:16):
that's kind of from a businessside, really worked in our
favour because now people justfind us. But the actual, you
know, being very early, we haveseen a lot of changes in the
influencer marketing industryitself. Obviously, written
content was really important andinteresting. Something that I
think people undervalued today,you know, we had the kind of
(09:38):
Instagram point in time where itwas just all about images, and
that's what people really caredabout. Now, video is kind of
everything which is reallyinteresting. People put a lot of
stock in reels and TikTok, andit's kind of interesting because
as I reflect on all of thosethings, it's not like any of
those have disappeared. It'sjust like the fad what people
(10:01):
are kind of chasing, and youknow right now, as I said, it's
video and reels. And because alot of brands aren't actually
great content creators. Sothat's one thing that's amazing
about influencers, as they cando it all for you. But I think
what happens is we get fixatedon one trend or fad. And
everyone's like, we just needreels. And people don't think
(10:22):
about what role influencersactually play in the broader
marketing strategy. And theykind of forget about all of the
different tactics.
Sarah Spence (10:31):
Let's look at those fads and trends because
it's not just influencermarketing. It's marketing, in
general, that susceptible to ashiny new thing. I remember the
heady days when 80% of ourbudget went to TVCs, direct
mail, and static display ads.And let's not forget about that
weird moment in 2012 wheneveryone thought it was a good
(10:53):
idea to add a QR code to printassets. That certainly died a
very quick death before comingback as that must-have accessory
of the COVID era. Forinfluences, as Danielle was
saying, it was all about writtenblogs, then it became all about
photos. And now it's all videovideo video. So I wonder how can
(11:16):
we use this video trend toimprove campaigns when coupled
with other strategies too.
Danielle Lewis (11:22):
I think that you would be silly to just have it
play out on its own. If you'reinvesting money in influencers
and their content, it is justsilly to leave it as a
standalone channel, there's somuch that you can do with it.
And that's kind of one of thebiggest mistakes we see brands
make is they kind of have amarketing budget, and they divvy
it up amongst these differentchannels and then forget to
(11:45):
integrate it. So from aninfluencer point of view, if you
pay an influencer to create apiece of content, it shouldn't
end when they post you know, youshould be resharing that to all
of your social channels, youshould be putting it you know, a
link to it in your EDM, youshould be using it in your
social advertising. If it's ahigh-profile influencer, you can
(12:06):
use that to get PR off the backof it. There's just so much you
can do with influencer content.And it's really interesting
because this is where people'smindset, they have a bit of a
block with influencer pricing,you know, they think of an
influence and they go, I willpay you based on the number of
followers you have, which is thestandard at the moment. But they
don't think about the fact thatthey're getting a piece of
(12:26):
content. They're getting thereach of the influencer, they're
getting the ability to put thatin every one of their other
channels. So yes, absolutely. Itcan work in isolation. But
you're right, it is so much morepowerful when you integrate it
into the rest of your marketingstrategy.
Sarah Spence (12:41):
And especially like maybe this is a dumb
question. Sorry. But can youtell the influencers? What you
want them to create?
Danielle Lewis (12:49):
Oh, totally. Yeah, that's fine.
Sarah Spence (12:50):
Okay.
Danielle Lewis (12:51):
Yeah, my whole my whole thing I say to brands
is like it's your money. Yeah,your marketing money. You tell
them what you want to do you getexactly what you want out of
your marketing dollars. And ifthe influences says no, there
are millions of them on theplanet. Find one that says yes.
Sarah Spence (13:05):
Gotcha. Okay, because then I can imagine, you
know, yeah, if you do have awhole bunch of influencers,
creating content for you that itwould be so much more powerful
to be leveraging that from acore strategic place where you
do actually have assets thatcomplement what they're the
messages that you're tellingthem to put out there. On your
website, you're directingeverybody back to a central
(13:25):
place where they can actuallyconvert because it's not just
short, brand awareness, play isgreat. But you've always
everything always leads back toconversion,
Danielle Lewis (13:35):
Totally, or you run out of money, and you can't
do any marketing anymore.
Sarah Spence (13:38):
Gotcha. Hopefully, That doesn't happen. But yeah,
absolutely. It's reallyinteresting, because we haven't,
like in our strategies for ourclients we haven't explored
influencer marketing yet. Butwe're talking to clients more
and more about it as anamplification channel for the
strategies that we are alreadyputting into play. So I've
definitely learnt somethingthere because I haven't haven't
(13:59):
been in this world at all. Wheredo you see it all going in the
future?
Danielle Lewis (14:03):
I think the market is maturing. So anyone
who has been using influencersfor a little while is kind of
getting their head around thefact that yes, they need to
integrate it into the rest oftheir marketing strategy. People
are coming to terms with thefact that one influencer is not
a silver bullet and won't changethe world. You do need to have
lots of influences you need totest it as, as per any other
(14:27):
marketing channel. You need totest influencer types influencer
content, different call toactions to find out what really
does work and convert for yourbusiness. And I think also will
be beholden to what socialplatform comes out next. As new
social platforms come out, newinfluences will emerge, new
content types will emerge andthe influences will be the
(14:48):
quickest ones to adapt to thatinfluences always the quickest
brands kind of tend to wait andsee what's going on. I mean,
there are some, you know,thought leaders that will jump
on first, but brands tend Sitback for a second. And then what
influencers actually create andhow they partner with brands
will be really interesting. So Ithink the sponsored posts still
(15:09):
have a place and will alwayshave a place. But we do see more
collaborations with brands wherethey're producing content
together products together, sortof more high value things. So
that will be really interesting.Of course, there's AI and these
kind of crazy technologies thatare coming out. So that will
play a role as well. So I thinkif you're a marketer today, and
(15:32):
you working in the influencerspace, you've got a great career
ahead of you, because there willbe lots of changes, the world is
moving social, digital AI, sothere will never be a shortage
of something new to learn andimplement inside a brand
marketing strategy
Sarah Spence (15:49):
Gosh, so that I mean, well, maybe this is
different. But you know, if youhad Kylie Jenner, for instance,
even just having Kylie Jenner isnot the silver bullet, you do
still need, you know, diversityin that strategy.
Danielle Lewis (16:01):
Totally. I know, I literally know of a - so
closely related Kim Kardashian,I literally know of a brand who
paid her an exorbitant amount ofmoney to wear their clothes and
it did nothing. You know, you'vereally got to, you really got to
be careful with the high profileinfluencers if you don't know,
your audience. So it all comesdown to the fact that it isn't
(16:26):
about the influencer, it's aboutthe people they influence. So as
a brand, you need to know thatthe people they influence are
going to be your customers oryour potential customers.
Because that an influencer isjust the conduit, as we said
before to hopefully making somesales. So actually diving in and
understanding if it is the rightbrand fit in. And if they do
(16:46):
have the correct audience thatyou're targeting, is super,
super important before you payanyone any money and why it's
really good to test with smallerinfluencers until you really do
nail what works for your brandand what doesn't.
Sarah Spence (16:59):
That is also just marketing fundamentals
Danielle Lewis (17:02):
Totally
Sarah Spence (17:02):
101
Danielle Lewis (17:03):
I know
Sarah Spence (17:04):
That's exactly what we do too. It's like it
actually doesn't matter what thebrand wants to say ultimately,
or how much value they have. Ifwe don't have an understanding
of the audience, then it's notgoing to land.
Danielle Lewis (17:15):
It's like when influencers happened, everyone
lost their mind and forgot aboutwhat marketing fundamentals
were.
Sarah Spence (17:25):
Isn't it such a shame that it all comes back to
the boring basics time and timeagain, marketing 101 It always
seems to make sense. And that'swhy maybe Scrunch has been so
successful. But as you'vealready heard, there are some
interesting differences betweena general marketing campaign and
(17:45):
a campaign using influencers. Solet's unpack that idea a bit
more. Let's look at all thesedifferent types of influencers.
Did you even know there aredifferent types? I didn't
really. I tried to tell mysister the other day that she's
a micro influencer because sheinfluenced me to listen to a
certain podcast, but she waslike, I really am not. Don't
(18:05):
call me an influencer. Butsurely those small everyday
moments of influence that we allhave on our friends and family,
they do have a place in all ofthis. And it turns out that they
do but it's just way morecomplex than I ever imagined.
Hold on to your hat people.We're about to learn the ABCs of
influencers.
Danielle Lewis (18:26):
We have nanos, micros, macros, powers, experts,
celebrities, so they're kind oflike all the categories of
influences.
Sarah Spence (18:35):
Wow. Okay
Danielle Lewis (18:36):
Yeah. and so yes, they all do have a place.
So if you're a brand that wantsa lot of content out there, with
all different faces withdiversity with different
backgrounds, like if you did ashoot, if you had to hire all
those models, hire all thosevenues, photographer, editor,
all those things, super highcost, versus just sending out
(18:59):
your product to all of thesetiny nano influencers, we call
this user generated content nowand nanos are amazing for that.
And whether they post it or not,some will, some won't, it
doesn't matter because you'vegot this amazing bank of
content, then you have themicros that yes, are now
starting to actually influencethe audience or their
communities that follow them. Soagain, you know, super valuable
(19:22):
for a lot of content but we arenow starting to get people
following your brand account orvisiting your website or buying
your thing. And then when we'rekind of getting into the macros
when they do have super engagedaudiences you have tested that
they're all correct, then youcan really start seeing those
sales come through experts, youknow, they are used for
(19:42):
credibility. So you know, couldwe have like a nutritionist or a
physio or a doctor or a sleepexpert when it depends on you
know, your industry, they bringcredibility to the brand they
may not have as many followersbut they bring their skill set,
their certifications, and thenyou know, celebrities are just
more ambassador level sort ofstuff. So yeah, they all really
(20:04):
do have a place talking aboutmarketing fundamentals. The
first thing to do withinfluencer marketing strategy is
not look at influencers. It'sactually figure out what you
want to do like what do you wantto achieve? And only then once
you know that, then that drivesthe choice of influencer or the
influencer style.
Sarah Spence (20:24):
Can you define for me, or are there actually, you
know, definitions in around allthose different categories? Is
that the number of followers orhow do you know? Like, where
would I sit, for instance.
Danielle Lewis (20:34):
So nano, micro, macro, power, it's all based on
followers. So your nanos kind ofanyone sub 3000 followers. 3000,
to say, you know, 25,000 -50,000 followers is you kind of
micros. When you're getting intothe 100,000 territory, that's
your macros. And then your 250Kand over a kind of your power
(20:56):
influencers. When they'recelebrities, they may have
10,000 followers, or they mighthave 100,000 followers, but they
have what we call the celebritytax. So because they've been in
mainstream media, they will costmore, because they kind of have
that level of impact. And samewith experts, because they've
got that legit backing, they maynot have as many followers, but
(21:18):
they might charge a little bitmore than your average micro
influencer as an example.
Sarah Spence (21:23):
I then technically be a nano, I think my followers
are a mix of my friends andfamily, as well as then people
who follow me from a businessand you know, content marketing,
SEO perspective. But there's nota really clearly defined
audience. Whereas I'm guessingthose, you know, celebrities
that people have been on TV orwhatever, they've really got
people following them, becausethose people care about what
(21:43):
that person has to say, it's notnecessarily an account full of
their friends and family. Thatkind of thing.
Danielle Lewis (21:48):
Totally, totally and who has 10,000 friends and
family. But you're right, takingyou or I as the example because
we have a business personality,you and I could get a speaking
gig and be paid a lot more thanjust what we would get paid
based on our follower numbers.So because of our credibility
and our experience in theindustry, so we would be
(22:11):
considered experts. And by theway, there's no benchmark. So
every influencer, you can havetwo influences with 10,000
followers. And they'll bothcharge something completely
different because it'scompletely unregulated.
Sarah Spence (22:24):
I wonder, do you see any regulation coming in
eventually to the industry?
Danielle Lewis (22:28):
I only see regulation from an ad disclosure
point of view, which ishappening right now. So if you
are getting paid, or you'vereceived a free product, you
need to disclose it to yourfollowers as an ad. But from a
pricing point of view, no, I donot see any regulation, because
technically, these are all smallbusinesses. And no one tells us
(22:50):
what to charge for a marketingstrategy or managing a social
media account or whatever. So wecan't really tell them what to
charge inside their business isa real supply and demand thing.
So if you have an influencer,who has 10,000 followers, and
you're comparing two one's alittle bit more expensive, but
you love the content that theyproduce, you might pay the extra
because your your brand alignsmore to their aesthetic.
Sarah Spence (23:13):
And of course, then the audience as well thing
and yeah, the crossover and youknow, especially in terms of
experts, we reach out and webuild an expert panels for our
clients, but we're notleveraging them. I think, now
learning this stuff in the waythat we really should be because
we do check whether or not theyhave an online profile. But from
purely content marketing,organic play perspective, it's
(23:34):
that we want to see that theyhave a website page. And you
know, they have theircredentials listed. They have a
LinkedIn profile, etc. So thatGoogle will follow that link and
see when we link to them, andsee that they have credibility.
But of course, we should begoing out there and checking
what their social media presencelooks like, how can we actually
leverage them? Can you talk usthrough some of those strategies
that you've put together in thecampaigns, what's what's been
(23:56):
the winning combo of ingredientsthere?
Danielle Lewis (23:58):
I think the winning combination of
ingredients is having acombination of ingredients. So
if your strategy is you know,it's totally standalone, we want
this number of influences createa piece of content, holding up
the product, great, you'll have,you know, 10 influencers holding
up your product, you can usethat content, maybe something
will happen. But it's integratedstrategies that work the best.
(24:22):
So thinking about the audiencethat you want to connect with
and thinking about differentinfluencer types that might
actually resonate, so don't justgo it has to be a parenting, or
mummy influencer, okay can weactually leverage health and
wellness and travel influencers?What can we actually look at
three different types ofinfluencers, and then have them
create all different types ofcontent. So static images,
(24:44):
carousels, reels, tiktoks,stories, because we're tracking
theoretically, and then we canbasically take all of that
content, put it into our ownsocial channels, put it into our
ad strategy, and then actuallyreflect on the campaign. So what
went well, what didn't go well,and then use that data to do the
(25:06):
next iteration. I always usethis example of like lipstick,
right? Maybe this lipstick hassome fabulous, nourishing
quality. And it's like, okay,you know, we can actually pitch
that to busy moms, we can pitchit to travellers who, you know,
you get chaffed lips on yourplane when you're travelling, or
you know, your health andwellness person who's out for a
jog like, you can take oneproduct and think about its
(25:30):
unique selling proposition andhow different types of
influencers might be able toangle that towards their
communities. Because if youhaven't used an influencer
before, you really don't knowwhat's going to work. You know,
I liken it to the Facebook ads,you wouldn't put all of your
budget in on day one with onepiece of content and one
caption, one call to action,you'd be testing all of this
(25:52):
different stuff. It's exactlythe same with influencers, test
different influencer types,different content, different
calls to action, and see whatworks, but then make sure it's
integrated into the rest of yourstrategy. So the companies or
the brands that do that, theyare the ones that always keep
go, and you see them like, youknow, there's a reason why
(26:12):
HelloFresh is everywhere.They're always on we call it an
always on strategy versus justindividual campaigns, because
they go through that testingcycle. So yeah, it's those big
brands that understand the valueof testing, and then learn from
that. They're the ones that wesee with the most success.
Sarah Spence (26:28):
I was talking to a potential client, yesterday,
actually who this would just beso perfect for this kind of a
strategy, because they had donea whole bunch of audience
research. And they had the, youknow, this beautiful deck that
had all of these AudienceInsights. And they were saying,
right, so we really need to workout how we can connect with this
one particular type of audiencewho we can clearly see are the
(26:50):
audience who purchase and usethe product the most. And I came
back to them and challenged abit and when that yes,
historically, that has been theaudience who has used bought
your product the most, butactually, this product is highly
relevant for the type ofcategory of person that I am.
And you don't see that in theresearch in this traditional
(27:13):
research, because you haven'ttested it, you haven't made the
product attractive to them. And,you know, we were talking about
content marketing strategy, andgetting that out there, which,
of course, would involve bigsocial amplification. But I can
see how really incorporating aninfluencer marketing strategy as
part of that, because then theycould test at a relatively low
(27:34):
cost definitely lower than a bigabove the line campaign or big
out of home campaign orwhatever. They could test. Does
this even actually play withthat audience?
Danielle Lewis (27:44):
Exactly. Exactly.
Sarah Spence (27:46):
Onto influencers and creators themselves.
Obviously, their, their wholeindustry, as you talked about
has shifted and the expectationson them, and there are
influencers at all differentlevels. What are you seeing
those influencers and creatorsdoing today that is really good,
and they should keep doing? Butdo you have any advice as well
around stuff that perhaps theyshouldn't necessarily be doing
(28:09):
or they could kind of let go bythe wayside?
Danielle Lewis (28:11):
The most successful creators are the ones
that see themselves as abusiness. So they've got
professional email set up, theyhave a media kit, they respond
to briefs in a timely manner,they do what they said they were
going to do, they follow theirbrief, all of those kind of
things that I think astraditional business owners, we
(28:33):
think you have to do it. But notall creators think of themselves
as business owners, and the onesthat actually have a strategy as
well. So as business owners,they not only need to, you know,
go out and get sponsored postsinteract with agencies like
mine, or platforms like mine,they also need to think about
their own marketing, right. Sothey've got to be producing
(28:55):
content, they've got to bebuilding audiences, they've got
to be thinking aboutcollaborations with other
influencers to grow. And it isreally could be a full time job.
And some influencers do get tothat level where they can
actually quit their day jobs andmake a full time living, which
is I think it's just so coolthat we live in a time where you
(29:15):
can do that, where you canmonetize your influence and what
you care about. I think that'sspectacular. But then there are
other influences who don't thinkthat way. It is just the lack of
professionalism and the lack ofthinking about what marketers
need. So we run a couple ofbrand accounts and influencers
(29:36):
who want to work with the brandwill literally send a DM saying,
Hey, want to collab? And it'skind of like, well, why should I
so what you've done is you'vejust made more work for me. I've
got to go to your profile. I'vegot to run your analytics. I've
got to figure out all of thesethings about you. You have just
created work for me rather thancoming to me and saying hey,
(30:00):
This is what I'm about this ishow many followers I have, this
is what the audience make uplooks like because they have
their analytics in theirInstagram account. This is
examples of content that I'veproduced for other brands. These
are my rates, you know, ifthere's an opportunity, we'd
love to do something, everythingI need is there. They are the
influencers I will prioritiseworking with, because everyone's
(30:21):
so busy, right. So if you makesomeone's job harder for them,
then you are less likely toactually get a collaboration. We
even get emails from peoplesaying, Hey, would love to do
some work for you, thanks, saidinfluencer. And it's like, I
don't even know what yourInstagram account is. Like, I
can't even look at yourInstagram account because you've
just send an email from youknow, an email address.
Sarah Spence (30:45):
Yep, It's not just one click away now.
Danielle Lewis (30:47):
Oh my God, it blows my mind. So even if you
have it as a side hustle, treatit as a business and think about
the fact that the brands you'reworking with are super busy and
as much as you can do to sellyourself and make their lives
easier. That is how you'll winmore work.
Sarah Spence (31:03):
I love that. That's what the advice is, it's
not about you know, create morevideos or make sure you're
across Lemon8 or Tik Tok orwhatever. Again, it comes back
to the basics,
Danielle Lewis (31:13):
Business basics
Sarah Spence (31:14):
Boringly so,
Danielle Lewis (31:16):
Sorry, everyone for this bor...all the boring
insights today.
Sarah Spence (31:20):
I love it, though. I mean, because it's so it's so
true, right? And what I justlove about what I'm learning,
doing this podcast, as I'mspeaking to people from all the
different aspects of marketing,all the different disciplines of
marketing is that it all comesback to the fundamentals. And
we're all just buildingstrategies and creating
(31:42):
experiences from those, thosefundamentals, whether they're
marketing fundamentals orbusiness fundamentals, but it
actually doesn't matter like theindustry. I think sometimes we
all feel, especially this year2023 Just feel the weight of the
change, and the progression andthe innovation, and it feels big
(32:03):
and heavy and everything all thetime. But actually, it's still
all the same. It's still thefundamentals are all still
there. We're just expressing itin different ways.
Danielle Lewis (32:14):
Totally. And I think that there's this, this
feeling that we need to have thebiggest best brainwave idea, or
we need to go viral. If only wecould work with the influencer
that has a million followers,everything would change. But no,
it is exactly what you just saidit is getting the basics right
and showing up and doing theboring stuff, day after day
(32:37):
after day.
Sarah Spence (32:38):
Yeah, and because then you know what, when you do
get to the point where you canafford that million follower
influencer, or you know, all ofyour nano influencers actually
go viral, you know, if you don'thave the boring bits done, if
you don't have the greatexperience on your website, if
you don't have the content onyour site, and just the normal
(32:59):
organic content in your socialchannels pumping and happening
so that when people do land onyou, they're like, oh, yeah,
this meets my expectation oreven it exceeds my expectation,
then it's all going to be fornothing.
Danielle Lewis (33:13):
Totally, it's so interesting that you say that we
get approached by brands all thetime who say, hey, I want to do
an influencer campaign. And theymight be like, I want to invest
$10,000. And they don't have anInstagram account. And we're
like, we actually can't takeyour money. Sorry. Because if we
did, it wouldn't do anything.Because you're you don't have
your own house in order. If youdid actually apply marketing
(33:36):
fundamentals. If you did takethe time to test. If you did
reinvest in top performers, thenyou could actually see a
tangible ROI on your marketingspend. And because that's the
biggest question I get asked is,is there an ROI? Will
influencers work for mybusiness? And the answer is yes,
but so absolutely, that you canproduce an ROI using influencers
(34:00):
just like any other marketingchannel, but you've got to be
willing to put in the work andit won't be the first influencer
that does it for you. It'll bethat repeat person that you know
works. There's a marketingstatistic thats like you need 16
odd touch points for a customerto actually convert or for a
potential customer to convertinto a paying customer. So the
(34:21):
idea that the brand actuallytakes influencer content and
puts that into their EDMS ontothe all the different social
channels. So when the followerof the influencer visits the
brand account, they see thatcontent again and they just
reinforce, reinforce, reinforce.That's I think what tips over
such successful sales is becausethey're seeing that repeat
(34:42):
content.
Sarah Spence (34:44):
Hold up, let's take a breather. So despite all
the different ways an influencercan reach out to their audience,
at the end of the day, successcomes down to integration and
repetition. It's so simple insome ways, but as we all know,
of course, the world is acomplex place. So to really make
(35:04):
it work, a client needs to knowtheir audience, they need to
know their data. They need toknow that product placement can
make a big impact, but only whenit's done as part of an overall
strategy, where we know it'smaking it to the right audience
and then receiving the messagein the intended way. It's
actually really clever, and theability for brands to get
(35:25):
exposure just by giving awaywhat they're already selling is
so cost effective. So influencermarketing, what have I learnt so
far? Well, first of all, I'velearnt it's definitely over the
top. But it's also kind ofsubtle. It's kind of new, but
it's also based on some very oldmarketing fundamentals. And that
(35:47):
paradox is about to continue.Because what happens when your
influencer gets too busy toinfluence? And what role is for
AI in any of this?
Danielle Lewis (35:57):
We are only seeing people scratched the
surface. So absolutely, peopleare using AI for caption
generation for blog content.Yes, people are posting some
images, but more of a, Hey, Iused an AI to generate five
headshots. So kind of jumping ona few little trends, no one
really using it seriously. Butthen we're seeing a couple of
(36:18):
people really push theboundaries. So there's an
influencer, can't remember hername, can't remember where she's
from, and probably the US. Butbasically, she's created an AI
version of herself. And you canchat with her for $1 a minute.
Now, what people chat about, canbe left to the imagination. But
she made $70,000 in the firstweek.
Sarah Spence (36:40):
Oh, my goodness.
Danielle Lewis (36:43):
Totally. So and look, it's not just as simple as
Oh, I created an AI version ofmyself. Like there's technology.
There's engineers, all that kindof stuff that actually went into
creating this, they had to trainthe AI to speak like her and but
that to me signifies oh, whereis this actually going? So you
know, there's so manyinfluencers, who, in the early
(37:04):
days they can reply to the DMsthere's only a handful of, you
know, comments coming through,they can kind of really interact
one on one with all of theircommunity. When they get up to
the 100,000 million followers.They just can't do that anymore.
But people still have theappetite to speak with their
favourite influencer. So perhapsAI versions of influences may be
(37:26):
a thing down the line. But weare so early at the moment, I
think I was thinking about itthe other day, right? So we're,
we've implemented AI into theScrunch marketing agency. But
also like, you know, when wewere out pitching Scrunch in the
early days, like the technologyplatform, like we use some AI
features to find and recommendinfluencers. And it was kind of,
(37:49):
I think, a thing in the techworld where we were getting over
saying, oh, yeah, we have AI inour platform. But now I've just
realised that it's now hitmainstream. So I didn't kind of
see it. Because I was a techfounder. I just thought, oh,
yeah, everyone knows about AI.It's I'm getting over talking
about it. People think it's agimmick. Now it has gone
mainstream where anybody can getvalue out of a ChatGPT.
Sarah Spence (38:13):
It'd be cool if there was some version of a GPT
generative pre-trainedtransformer with some artificial
intelligence interface into itthat were influencers could
potentially leverage it torespond to all those comments as
if it's them.
Danielle Lewis (38:29):
And look, we have bots today, but it's not
the same. So I think theintelligence is really thing to
think about and just delineatethe two because you know,
everyone gets those stupid botcomments to like, promote it on
DM, you've won a card. Like thatis right now the simplest
version of commenting andreplying. When we can make it
(38:50):
smart, and reply, like it's thatactual person. Wow, that will
be, that'll be a game changer.
Sarah Spence (38:58):
Can you imagine that? Ai influences, I can
already see that market and thatopportunity where you'd pay top
dollar for a real person. I toldyou it was all something else.
This idea that AI can imitateinfluencers is truly astounding,
and potentially quite creepy.But here we are in a world where
people holidaying in caravans orsunbaking on a beach can
(39:22):
influence what others buy. Butit's kind of always been that
way. I guess it's just thetechnology that has allowed the
space for it to grow. I'velearned so much from Danielle.
The potential for influences ina campaign is enormous. So I'm
going to head to scrunch.comright now to check out Scrunch
365. See what I did there? Itried to influence people to go
(39:45):
to Danielle's business by justcasually mentioning that I'm
going to do it too. That'll workright? You're heading there
right now. Oh dear, Influencermarketing. It feels pretty fun
to me but also beautifullyserious space where when it
comes to impact the sky reallyis the limit. Thanks for joining
(40:08):
me on this journey. If you wantto stay rebellious and how you
practice marketing, how you showup in your workplace and how you
live your life. Please subscribeto the content rebels wherever
you listen to your podcasts.This podcast was recorded on
Awabakal and Darkinjung country.Produced by Pod and Pen
Productions.
Kim Kardashian, Kylie Jenner and Taylor Swift
welcome to the glamorous worldof the influencer marketing, but
behind the big sunglasses andthe Oh, so not subtle brand
placement is a lot of hard workfor some very smart people. So
let's talk to one of them. Hi,I'm Sarah Spence, I grew a
(00:23):
Content Agency from just me to20 people inside two years. So
you'd think I'd have my shittogether. And even though I try
to come at everything with arebellious curiosity, I've been
so focused on growing thisthing, that I'm a bit behind in
the trends. Join me on thisjourney to find out what's
actually happening in the worldof marketing. Welcome to the
(00:45):
content rebels.
Ever wondered how much influenceinfluencers actually have? And
how do they build their audienceor even come up with the right
content? Well wonder no morebecause on today's episode of
the content rebels, we'retalking to someone who runs a
global community forinfluencers. But the glitz and
(01:05):
glamour of influencer life isnot where it started for my
guest, Danielle Lewis, No, forDanielle it all started with a
fashion blog. In fact, it wasthrough creating her blog,
Brisbane Threads that Daniellesaw the potential for online
businesses and digitalmarketing. Now, Danielle is the
CEO and co founder of Scrunch aglobal community for creators
(01:25):
and influencers. She's also thefounder of the Sparks Founders
Programme that offers coursesand coaching for female
founders.
Danielle Lewis (01:33):
Thank you so much for having me.
Sarah Spence (01:35):
And she's on a journey to help influencers and
reduce her coffee intake
Danielle Lewis (01:40):
I'm on one cup a day, which is so sad because I
love drinking coffee.
Sarah Spence (01:44):
Coffee Jokes aside, isn't it interesting that
where Danielle began -fashion,blogging, and tech, makes for a
perfect foundation for what shedoes now in the creator and
influencer space. But there wasno way to see that pathway back
then. Influences weren't even athing. So what I wanted to know
from Danielle first up, was ifshe had a sense of a particular
(02:06):
pathway of where she washeading.
Danielle Lewis (02:09):
I had no sense of anything. So no, I literally,
it's funny on reflection, itdoes make a lot of sense. You
know it being a blogger 10 yearsago, God it was probably longer
than that now. But being ablogger all of those years ago,
and it all coming full circleand running a company that is
(02:30):
also to its creators andinfluences it, it does make a
lot of sense on reflection. Butif I think about the journey, I
do really feel like it's justbeen falling into opportunities,
or, you know, having a brainwave and trying out new things.
Some work, some didn't work. Soyeah, there was no real pathway.
It was really just a matter ofputting one foot in front of the
(02:53):
other and getting up when wefall down.
Sarah Spence (02:56):
Or as I'd like to say it's say yes, and then
figure out the details later.
Danielle Lewis (03:01):
Oh, yeah, I'm a sales person by trade. So I
always say yes. much toeveryone's dismay.
Sarah Spence (03:07):
Look at where it's got you. It's a fantastic
journey. And how did youactually do that jump? Uh, what
was the first point at which itactually became you know,
influencer marketing, in yourview? What did it all look like
back then?
Danielle Lewis (03:20):
So I was a blogger. And that's so I have a
co founder title. So I actuallystarted Scrunch with another
person, because I actually hadthe blog and they had a retail
store. And I went into the storeto sell them advertising on my
blog. And that's how we met andthen started Scrunch. And you
would think that it was a linearpath to being an influencer
marketing company. But in fact,we did not launch an influencer
(03:43):
marketing company first. Welaunched this fashion discovery
platform that went nowhere, andwas going to be having to build,
being built on advertisingrevenue, which is a long, hard
slog. And so then we built thisinventory tracking solution. At
that time, when we were tryingto sell it into fashion labels.
They were like, nah we have a anintern that works for free.
(04:06):
They'll do that stuff. We won'tpay for software. Those
platforms exist today, though.So had we kept down that path
you never know. And then we didmedia monitoring. And it was
kind of like this funny momentof we had this amazing tech
team. And then the marketshifted where the first blogger
made a million dollars like itwas this big Hoo Haa because
(04:28):
bloggers existed and I was ablogger, but we didn't really
put two and two together likeInstagram wasn't around yet. It
was really blogs, Facebook,Twitter, and then Instagram kind
of came out and bloggers werereally making serious cash
sitting front row in fashionshows. And it was kind of this
like moment like this meltingpot where it was like it just
(04:49):
made sense to double down on theinfluencer marketing piece. So
it was pivot, pivot pivot, untilwe finally you know, looked at
what we had and went oh my god Ithink influencer marketing is
the thing.
Sarah Spence (05:02):
So what did it actually look like back then
like you're talking here about aplatform and things were you
there as the conduit betweenpeople who you are meeting out
and about who were those peoplewho were sitting front row and
you were helping them to buildtheir business and connect them
to brands? Or was it just a puretech play? Like, What did it
actually look like?
Danielle Lewis (05:20):
So we service brands probably a little bit
better than we service creators.And it's something that we're
trying to adjust. Now, now thatwe have this concept of the
Creator economy, which is goingwild. There's a real focus on
the fact that anyone can be acreator. But you do have to
treat it as a business, not justposting things on Instagram and
(05:42):
getting sponsored posts. Becausewe've gone through so many
iterations of ideas andtechnology, when we had the idea
to become an influencerplatform, I was so sick of
software developers taking solong to build anything that we
actually launched the agency armof Scrunch to kind of service
things first. So that's whyScrunch agency exists today,
(06:05):
because I was over waiting. Sowhat we decided to do was
actually deliver everything wewanted to deliver in the
software manually. So an agencymodel. And it's so funny, I
reflect on the first customer wehad under that model and how
much we did for them for like nomoney, because we were kind of
trying to mimic it being in thesoftware. It was really
(06:26):
interesting, though, becauseessentially, we were our own
first customers. So we couldbring revenue in the door by
doing it manually through anagency. But we could also give
real time feedback to oursoftware engineers and tell them
exactly what to build in theproduct. Software technology
does take time, but we stillhave both sides of the business
today. So we have people thatwill come in, use the software,
(06:48):
self-serve, do their own thing,find influences, happy days. And
then we have other clients whoare like nah, do it all for me.
So yeah, both sides still exist,but they're a lot more polished.
And yeah, seamless, I guesstoday.
Sarah Spence (07:03):
Thinking about it from that perspective. It's
actually almost like you, willyou have created a marketplace.
And you're matching that supplyand demand on both sides. There,
It's a complete sidebar but it'sso interesting to me the rise of
marketplace companies, you'vegot Airbnb, obviously, and
Camplify and Hi-Pages and thosekind of bigger ones. But
(07:23):
actually there is a supply anddemand and a need and a desire
for for all sorts of differentmarketplaces even on a smaller
scale, which, you know, perhapsthis is, but it's yeah, it's a
really interesting businessmodel.
Danielle Lewis (07:37):
Totally. And it's really interesting because
one of the questions we got frominvestors in the early days was,
how are you going to attractinfluencers and creators? How
are you going to get them, andnobody else gets them? And the
interesting thing is, that's oneside where we don't compete with
our competitors becauseinfluencers want as much work as
possible. So they'll actually goout and put themselves on ten
(07:58):
platforms and take the differentcampaigns. So it is really your
right. Having a marketplace is areally interesting strategy
because they are allmicro-businesses, and all
micro-businesses need to makemore money.
Sarah Spence (08:12):
Yeah, good point. So you're really you don't have
any supply issues on the creatorand influencer side. It's really
driving the supply on the brandside and the campaign side,
that's kind of more, you know,from that point, when you were
doing it pretty manually, andyou're having to convince brands
to even want to talk toinfluences. What have been the
changes that you've seen? Thebiggest ones, I guess.
Danielle Lewis (08:34):
You know, in the early days of any business, it
is all about brand recognition.And, of course, in my previous
life, when I was in a corporatesales job, I had a big brand
name behind me. So I'd pick upthe phone and be like, Hi, and
people wouldn't hang up on me.And in the early days of Scrunch
no one knows you. So there was alot of hustle on our own
(08:55):
marketing strategy right around,you know, creating content,
getting people to understandwhat influencer marketing was
and why we were the best personto deliver it. So we have the
benefit of time now because wewere one of the first ones that
were out there. We've built upso much brand recognition. We
have so much content on theinternet it is ridiculous. So
(09:16):
that's kind of from a businessside, really worked in our
favour because now people justfind us. But the actual, you
know, being very early, we haveseen a lot of changes in the
influencer marketing industryitself. Obviously, written
content was really important andinteresting. Something that I
think people undervalued today,you know, we had the kind of
(09:38):
Instagram point in time where itwas just all about images, and
that's what people really caredabout. Now, video is kind of
everything which is reallyinteresting. People put a lot of
stock in reels and TikTok, andit's kind of interesting because
as I reflect on all of thosethings, it's not like any of
those have disappeared. It'sjust like the fad what people
(10:01):
are kind of chasing, and youknow right now, as I said, it's
video and reels. And because alot of brands aren't actually
great content creators. Sothat's one thing that's amazing
about influencers, as they cando it all for you. But I think
what happens is we get fixatedon one trend or fad. And
everyone's like, we just needreels. And people don't think
(10:22):
about what role influencersactually play in the broader
marketing strategy. And theykind of forget about all of the
different tactics.
Sarah Spence (10:31):
Let's look at those fads and trends because
it's not just influencermarketing. It's marketing, in
general, that susceptible to ashiny new thing. I remember the
heady days when 80% of ourbudget went to TVCs, direct
mail, and static display ads.And let's not forget about that
weird moment in 2012 wheneveryone thought it was a good
(10:53):
idea to add a QR code to printassets. That certainly died a
very quick death before comingback as that must-have accessory
of the COVID era. Forinfluences, as Danielle was
saying, it was all about writtenblogs, then it became all about
photos. And now it's all videovideo video. So I wonder how can
(11:16):
we use this video trend toimprove campaigns when coupled
with other strategies too.
Danielle Lewis (11:22):
I think that you would be silly to just have it
play out on its own. If you'reinvesting money in influencers
and their content, it is justsilly to leave it as a
standalone channel, there's somuch that you can do with it.
And that's kind of one of thebiggest mistakes we see brands
make is they kind of have amarketing budget, and they divvy
it up amongst these differentchannels and then forget to
(11:45):
integrate it. So from aninfluencer point of view, if you
pay an influencer to create apiece of content, it shouldn't
end when they post you know, youshould be resharing that to all
of your social channels, youshould be putting it you know, a
link to it in your EDM, youshould be using it in your
social advertising. If it's ahigh-profile influencer, you can
(12:06):
use that to get PR off the backof it. There's just so much you
can do with influencer content.And it's really interesting
because this is where people'smindset, they have a bit of a
block with influencer pricing,you know, they think of an
influence and they go, I willpay you based on the number of
followers you have, which is thestandard at the moment. But they
don't think about the fact thatthey're getting a piece of
(12:26):
content. They're getting thereach of the influencer, they're
getting the ability to put thatin every one of their other
channels. So yes, absolutely. Itcan work in isolation. But
you're right, it is so much morepowerful when you integrate it
into the rest of your marketingstrategy.
Sarah Spence (12:41):
And especially like maybe this is a dumb
question. Sorry. But can youtell the influencers? What you
want them to create?
Danielle Lewis (12:49):
Oh, totally. Yeah, that's fine.
Sarah Spence (12:50):
Okay.
Danielle Lewis (12:51):
Yeah, my whole my whole thing I say to brands
is like it's your money. Yeah,your marketing money. You tell
them what you want to do you getexactly what you want out of
your marketing dollars. And ifthe influences says no, there
are millions of them on theplanet. Find one that says yes.
Sarah Spence (13:05):
Gotcha. Okay, because then I can imagine, you
know, yeah, if you do have awhole bunch of influencers,
creating content for you that itwould be so much more powerful
to be leveraging that from acore strategic place where you
do actually have assets thatcomplement what they're the
messages that you're tellingthem to put out there. On your
website, you're directingeverybody back to a central
(13:25):
place where they can actuallyconvert because it's not just
short, brand awareness, play isgreat. But you've always
everything always leads back toconversion,
Danielle Lewis (13:35):
Totally, or you run out of money, and you can't
do any marketing anymore.
Sarah Spence (13:38):
Gotcha. Hopefully, That doesn't happen. But yeah,
absolutely. It's reallyinteresting, because we haven't,
like in our strategies for ourclients we haven't explored
influencer marketing yet. Butwe're talking to clients more
and more about it as anamplification channel for the
strategies that we are alreadyputting into play. So I've
definitely learnt somethingthere because I haven't haven't
(13:59):
been in this world at all. Wheredo you see it all going in the
future?
Danielle Lewis (14:03):
I think the market is maturing. So anyone
who has been using influencersfor a little while is kind of
getting their head around thefact that yes, they need to
integrate it into the rest oftheir marketing strategy. People
are coming to terms with thefact that one influencer is not
a silver bullet and won't changethe world. You do need to have
lots of influences you need totest it as, as per any other
(14:27):
marketing channel. You need totest influencer types influencer
content, different call toactions to find out what really
does work and convert for yourbusiness. And I think also will
be beholden to what socialplatform comes out next. As new
social platforms come out, newinfluences will emerge, new
content types will emerge andthe influences will be the
(14:48):
quickest ones to adapt to thatinfluences always the quickest
brands kind of tend to wait andsee what's going on. I mean,
there are some, you know,thought leaders that will jump
on first, but brands tend Sitback for a second. And then what
influencers actually create andhow they partner with brands
will be really interesting. So Ithink the sponsored posts still
(15:09):
have a place and will alwayshave a place. But we do see more
collaborations with brands wherethey're producing content
together products together, sortof more high value things. So
that will be really interesting.Of course, there's AI and these
kind of crazy technologies thatare coming out. So that will
play a role as well. So I thinkif you're a marketer today, and
(15:32):
you working in the influencerspace, you've got a great career
ahead of you, because there willbe lots of changes, the world is
moving social, digital AI, sothere will never be a shortage
of something new to learn andimplement inside a brand
marketing strategy
Sarah Spence (15:49):
Gosh, so that I mean, well, maybe this is
different. But you know, if youhad Kylie Jenner, for instance,
even just having Kylie Jenner isnot the silver bullet, you do
still need, you know, diversityin that strategy.
Danielle Lewis (16:01):
Totally. I know, I literally know of a - so
closely related Kim Kardashian,I literally know of a brand who
paid her an exorbitant amount ofmoney to wear their clothes and
it did nothing. You know, you'vereally got to, you really got to
be careful with the high profileinfluencers if you don't know,
your audience. So it all comesdown to the fact that it isn't
(16:26):
about the influencer, it's aboutthe people they influence. So as
a brand, you need to know thatthe people they influence are
going to be your customers oryour potential customers.
Because that an influencer isjust the conduit, as we said
before to hopefully making somesales. So actually diving in and
understanding if it is the rightbrand fit in. And if they do
(16:46):
have the correct audience thatyou're targeting, is super,
super important before you payanyone any money and why it's
really good to test with smallerinfluencers until you really do
nail what works for your brandand what doesn't.
Sarah Spence (16:59):
That is also just marketing fundamentals
Danielle Lewis (17:02):
Totally
Sarah Spence (17:02):
101
Danielle Lewis (17:03):
I know
Sarah Spence (17:04):
That's exactly what we do too. It's like it
actually doesn't matter what thebrand wants to say ultimately,
or how much value they have. Ifwe don't have an understanding
of the audience, then it's notgoing to land.
Danielle Lewis (17:15):
It's like when influencers happened, everyone
lost their mind and forgot aboutwhat marketing fundamentals
were.
Sarah Spence (17:25):
Isn't it such a shame that it all comes back to
the boring basics time and timeagain, marketing 101 It always
seems to make sense. And that'swhy maybe Scrunch has been so
successful. But as you'vealready heard, there are some
interesting differences betweena general marketing campaign and
(17:45):
a campaign using influencers. Solet's unpack that idea a bit
more. Let's look at all thesedifferent types of influencers.
Did you even know there aredifferent types? I didn't
really. I tried to tell mysister the other day that she's
a micro influencer because sheinfluenced me to listen to a
certain podcast, but she waslike, I really am not. Don't
(18:05):
call me an influencer. Butsurely those small everyday
moments of influence that we allhave on our friends and family,
they do have a place in all ofthis. And it turns out that they
do but it's just way morecomplex than I ever imagined.
Hold on to your hat people.We're about to learn the ABCs of
influencers.
Danielle Lewis (18:26):
We have nanos, micros, macros, powers, experts,
celebrities, so they're kind oflike all the categories of
influences.
Sarah Spence (18:35):
Wow. Okay
Danielle Lewis (18:36):
Yeah. and so yes, they all do have a place.
So if you're a brand that wantsa lot of content out there, with
all different faces withdiversity with different
backgrounds, like if you did ashoot, if you had to hire all
those models, hire all thosevenues, photographer, editor,
all those things, super highcost, versus just sending out
(18:59):
your product to all of thesetiny nano influencers, we call
this user generated content nowand nanos are amazing for that.
And whether they post it or not,some will, some won't, it
doesn't matter because you'vegot this amazing bank of
content, then you have themicros that yes, are now
starting to actually influencethe audience or their
communities that follow them. Soagain, you know, super valuable
(19:22):
for a lot of content but we arenow starting to get people
following your brand account orvisiting your website or buying
your thing. And then when we'rekind of getting into the macros
when they do have super engagedaudiences you have tested that
they're all correct, then youcan really start seeing those
sales come through experts, youknow, they are used for
(19:42):
credibility. So you know, couldwe have like a nutritionist or a
physio or a doctor or a sleepexpert when it depends on you
know, your industry, they bringcredibility to the brand they
may not have as many followersbut they bring their skill set,
their certifications, and thenyou know, celebrities are just
more ambassador level sort ofstuff. So yeah, they all really
(20:04):
do have a place talking aboutmarketing fundamentals. The
first thing to do withinfluencer marketing strategy is
not look at influencers. It'sactually figure out what you
want to do like what do you wantto achieve? And only then once
you know that, then that drivesthe choice of influencer or the
influencer style.
Sarah Spence (20:24):
Can you define for me, or are there actually, you
know, definitions in around allthose different categories? Is
that the number of followers orhow do you know? Like, where
would I sit, for instance.
Danielle Lewis (20:34):
So nano, micro, macro, power, it's all based on
followers. So your nanos kind ofanyone sub 3000 followers. 3000,
to say, you know, 25,000 -50,000 followers is you kind of
micros. When you're getting intothe 100,000 territory, that's
your macros. And then your 250Kand over a kind of your power
(20:56):
influencers. When they'recelebrities, they may have
10,000 followers, or they mighthave 100,000 followers, but they
have what we call the celebritytax. So because they've been in
mainstream media, they will costmore, because they kind of have
that level of impact. And samewith experts, because they've
got that legit backing, they maynot have as many followers, but
(21:18):
they might charge a little bitmore than your average micro
influencer as an example.
Sarah Spence (21:23):
I then technically be a nano, I think my followers
are a mix of my friends andfamily, as well as then people
who follow me from a businessand you know, content marketing,
SEO perspective. But there's nota really clearly defined
audience. Whereas I'm guessingthose, you know, celebrities
that people have been on TV orwhatever, they've really got
people following them, becausethose people care about what
(21:43):
that person has to say, it's notnecessarily an account full of
their friends and family. Thatkind of thing.
Danielle Lewis (21:48):
Totally, totally and who has 10,000 friends and
family. But you're right, takingyou or I as the example because
we have a business personality,you and I could get a speaking
gig and be paid a lot more thanjust what we would get paid
based on our follower numbers.So because of our credibility
and our experience in theindustry, so we would be
(22:11):
considered experts. And by theway, there's no benchmark. So
every influencer, you can havetwo influences with 10,000
followers. And they'll bothcharge something completely
different because it'scompletely unregulated.
Sarah Spence (22:24):
I wonder, do you see any regulation coming in
eventually to the industry?
Danielle Lewis (22:28):
I only see regulation from an ad disclosure
point of view, which ishappening right now. So if you
are getting paid, or you'vereceived a free product, you
need to disclose it to yourfollowers as an ad. But from a
pricing point of view, no, I donot see any regulation, because
technically, these are all smallbusinesses. And no one tells us
(22:50):
what to charge for a marketingstrategy or managing a social
media account or whatever. So wecan't really tell them what to
charge inside their business isa real supply and demand thing.
So if you have an influencer,who has 10,000 followers, and
you're comparing two one's alittle bit more expensive, but
you love the content that theyproduce, you might pay the extra
because your your brand alignsmore to their aesthetic.
Sarah Spence (23:13):
And of course, then the audience as well thing
and yeah, the crossover and youknow, especially in terms of
experts, we reach out and webuild an expert panels for our
clients, but we're notleveraging them. I think, now
learning this stuff in the waythat we really should be because
we do check whether or not theyhave an online profile. But from
purely content marketing,organic play perspective, it's
(23:34):
that we want to see that theyhave a website page. And you
know, they have theircredentials listed. They have a
LinkedIn profile, etc. So thatGoogle will follow that link and
see when we link to them, andsee that they have credibility.
But of course, we should begoing out there and checking
what their social media presencelooks like, how can we actually
leverage them? Can you talk usthrough some of those strategies
that you've put together in thecampaigns, what's what's been
(23:56):
the winning combo of ingredientsthere?
Danielle Lewis (23:58):
I think the winning combination of
ingredients is having acombination of ingredients. So
if your strategy is you know,it's totally standalone, we want
this number of influences createa piece of content, holding up
the product, great, you'll have,you know, 10 influencers holding
up your product, you can usethat content, maybe something
will happen. But it's integratedstrategies that work the best.
(24:22):
So thinking about the audiencethat you want to connect with
and thinking about differentinfluencer types that might
actually resonate, so don't justgo it has to be a parenting, or
mummy influencer, okay can weactually leverage health and
wellness and travel influencers?What can we actually look at
three different types ofinfluencers, and then have them
create all different types ofcontent. So static images,
(24:44):
carousels, reels, tiktoks,stories, because we're tracking
theoretically, and then we canbasically take all of that
content, put it into our ownsocial channels, put it into our
ad strategy, and then actuallyreflect on the campaign. So what
went well, what didn't go well,and then use that data to do the
(25:06):
next iteration. I always usethis example of like lipstick,
right? Maybe this lipstick hassome fabulous, nourishing
quality. And it's like, okay,you know, we can actually pitch
that to busy moms, we can pitchit to travellers who, you know,
you get chaffed lips on yourplane when you're travelling, or
you know, your health andwellness person who's out for a
jog like, you can take oneproduct and think about its
(25:30):
unique selling proposition andhow different types of
influencers might be able toangle that towards their
communities. Because if youhaven't used an influencer
before, you really don't knowwhat's going to work. You know,
I liken it to the Facebook ads,you wouldn't put all of your
budget in on day one with onepiece of content and one
caption, one call to action,you'd be testing all of this
(25:52):
different stuff. It's exactlythe same with influencers, test
different influencer types,different content, different
calls to action, and see whatworks, but then make sure it's
integrated into the rest of yourstrategy. So the companies or
the brands that do that, theyare the ones that always keep
go, and you see them like, youknow, there's a reason why
(26:12):
HelloFresh is everywhere.They're always on we call it an
always on strategy versus justindividual campaigns, because
they go through that testingcycle. So yeah, it's those big
brands that understand the valueof testing, and then learn from
that. They're the ones that wesee with the most success.
Sarah Spence (26:28):
I was talking to a potential client, yesterday,
actually who this would just beso perfect for this kind of a
strategy, because they had donea whole bunch of audience
research. And they had the, youknow, this beautiful deck that
had all of these AudienceInsights. And they were saying,
right, so we really need to workout how we can connect with this
one particular type of audiencewho we can clearly see are the
(26:50):
audience who purchase and usethe product the most. And I came
back to them and challenged abit and when that yes,
historically, that has been theaudience who has used bought
your product the most, butactually, this product is highly
relevant for the type ofcategory of person that I am.
And you don't see that in theresearch in this traditional
(27:13):
research, because you haven'ttested it, you haven't made the
product attractive to them. And,you know, we were talking about
content marketing strategy, andgetting that out there, which,
of course, would involve bigsocial amplification. But I can
see how really incorporating aninfluencer marketing strategy as
part of that, because then theycould test at a relatively low
(27:34):
cost definitely lower than a bigabove the line campaign or big
out of home campaign orwhatever. They could test. Does
this even actually play withthat audience?
Danielle Lewis (27:44):
Exactly. Exactly.
Sarah Spence (27:46):
Onto influencers and creators themselves.
Obviously, their, their wholeindustry, as you talked about
has shifted and the expectationson them, and there are
influencers at all differentlevels. What are you seeing
those influencers and creatorsdoing today that is really good,
and they should keep doing? Butdo you have any advice as well
around stuff that perhaps theyshouldn't necessarily be doing
(28:09):
or they could kind of let go bythe wayside?
Danielle Lewis (28:11):
The most successful creators are the ones
that see themselves as abusiness. So they've got
professional email set up, theyhave a media kit, they respond
to briefs in a timely manner,they do what they said they were
going to do, they follow theirbrief, all of those kind of
things that I think astraditional business owners, we
(28:33):
think you have to do it. But notall creators think of themselves
as business owners, and the onesthat actually have a strategy as
well. So as business owners,they not only need to, you know,
go out and get sponsored postsinteract with agencies like
mine, or platforms like mine,they also need to think about
their own marketing, right. Sothey've got to be producing
(28:55):
content, they've got to bebuilding audiences, they've got
to be thinking aboutcollaborations with other
influencers to grow. And it isreally could be a full time job.
And some influencers do get tothat level where they can
actually quit their day jobs andmake a full time living, which
is I think it's just so coolthat we live in a time where you
(29:15):
can do that, where you canmonetize your influence and what
you care about. I think that'sspectacular. But then there are
other influences who don't thinkthat way. It is just the lack of
professionalism and the lack ofthinking about what marketers
need. So we run a couple ofbrand accounts and influencers
(29:36):
who want to work with the brandwill literally send a DM saying,
Hey, want to collab? And it'skind of like, well, why should I
so what you've done is you'vejust made more work for me. I've
got to go to your profile. I'vegot to run your analytics. I've
got to figure out all of thesethings about you. You have just
created work for me rather thancoming to me and saying hey,
(30:00):
This is what I'm about this ishow many followers I have, this
is what the audience make uplooks like because they have
their analytics in theirInstagram account. This is
examples of content that I'veproduced for other brands. These
are my rates, you know, ifthere's an opportunity, we'd
love to do something, everythingI need is there. They are the
influencers I will prioritiseworking with, because everyone's
(30:21):
so busy, right. So if you makesomeone's job harder for them,
then you are less likely toactually get a collaboration. We
even get emails from peoplesaying, Hey, would love to do
some work for you, thanks, saidinfluencer. And it's like, I
don't even know what yourInstagram account is. Like, I
can't even look at yourInstagram account because you've
just send an email from youknow, an email address.
Sarah Spence (30:45):
Yep, It's not just one click away now.
Danielle Lewis (30:47):
Oh my God, it blows my mind. So even if you
have it as a side hustle, treatit as a business and think about
the fact that the brands you'reworking with are super busy and
as much as you can do to sellyourself and make their lives
easier. That is how you'll winmore work.
Sarah Spence (31:03):
I love that. That's what the advice is, it's
not about you know, create morevideos or make sure you're
across Lemon8 or Tik Tok orwhatever. Again, it comes back
to the basics,
Danielle Lewis (31:13):
Business basics
Sarah Spence (31:14):
Boringly so,
Danielle Lewis (31:16):
Sorry, everyone for this bor...all the boring
insights today.
Sarah Spence (31:20):
I love it, though. I mean, because it's so it's so
true, right? And what I justlove about what I'm learning,
doing this podcast, as I'mspeaking to people from all the
different aspects of marketing,all the different disciplines of
marketing is that it all comesback to the fundamentals. And
we're all just buildingstrategies and creating
(31:42):
experiences from those, thosefundamentals, whether they're
marketing fundamentals orbusiness fundamentals, but it
actually doesn't matter like theindustry. I think sometimes we
all feel, especially this year2023 Just feel the weight of the
change, and the progression andthe innovation, and it feels big
(32:03):
and heavy and everything all thetime. But actually, it's still
all the same. It's still thefundamentals are all still
there. We're just expressing itin different ways.
Danielle Lewis (32:14):
Totally. And I think that there's this, this
feeling that we need to have thebiggest best brainwave idea, or
we need to go viral. If only wecould work with the influencer
that has a million followers,everything would change. But no,
it is exactly what you just saidit is getting the basics right
and showing up and doing theboring stuff, day after day
(32:37):
after day.
Sarah Spence (32:38):
Yeah, and because then you know what, when you do
get to the point where you canafford that million follower
influencer, or you know, all ofyour nano influencers actually
go viral, you know, if you don'thave the boring bits done, if
you don't have the greatexperience on your website, if
you don't have the content onyour site, and just the normal
(32:59):
organic content in your socialchannels pumping and happening
so that when people do land onyou, they're like, oh, yeah,
this meets my expectation oreven it exceeds my expectation,
then it's all going to be fornothing.
Danielle Lewis (33:13):
Totally, it's so interesting that you say that we
get approached by brands all thetime who say, hey, I want to do
an influencer campaign. And theymight be like, I want to invest
$10,000. And they don't have anInstagram account. And we're
like, we actually can't takeyour money. Sorry. Because if we
did, it wouldn't do anything.Because you're you don't have
your own house in order. If youdid actually apply marketing
(33:36):
fundamentals. If you did takethe time to test. If you did
reinvest in top performers, thenyou could actually see a
tangible ROI on your marketingspend. And because that's the
biggest question I get asked is,is there an ROI? Will
influencers work for mybusiness? And the answer is yes,
but so absolutely, that you canproduce an ROI using influencers
(34:00):
just like any other marketingchannel, but you've got to be
willing to put in the work andit won't be the first influencer
that does it for you. It'll bethat repeat person that you know
works. There's a marketingstatistic thats like you need 16
odd touch points for a customerto actually convert or for a
potential customer to convertinto a paying customer. So the
(34:21):
idea that the brand actuallytakes influencer content and
puts that into their EDMS ontothe all the different social
channels. So when the followerof the influencer visits the
brand account, they see thatcontent again and they just
reinforce, reinforce, reinforce.That's I think what tips over
such successful sales is becausethey're seeing that repeat
(34:42):
content.
Sarah Spence (34:44):
Hold up, let's take a breather. So despite all
the different ways an influencercan reach out to their audience,
at the end of the day, successcomes down to integration and
repetition. It's so simple insome ways, but as we all know,
of course, the world is acomplex place. So to really make
(35:04):
it work, a client needs to knowtheir audience, they need to
know their data. They need toknow that product placement can
make a big impact, but only whenit's done as part of an overall
strategy, where we know it'smaking it to the right audience
and then receiving the messagein the intended way. It's
actually really clever, and theability for brands to get
(35:25):
exposure just by giving awaywhat they're already selling is
so cost effective. So influencermarketing, what have I learnt so
far? Well, first of all, I'velearnt it's definitely over the
top. But it's also kind ofsubtle. It's kind of new, but
it's also based on some very oldmarketing fundamentals. And that
(35:47):
paradox is about to continue.Because what happens when your
influencer gets too busy toinfluence? And what role is for
AI in any of this?
Danielle Lewis (35:57):
We are only seeing people scratched the
surface. So absolutely, peopleare using AI for caption
generation for blog content.Yes, people are posting some
images, but more of a, Hey, Iused an AI to generate five
headshots. So kind of jumping ona few little trends, no one
really using it seriously. Butthen we're seeing a couple of
(36:18):
people really push theboundaries. So there's an
influencer, can't remember hername, can't remember where she's
from, and probably the US. Butbasically, she's created an AI
version of herself. And you canchat with her for $1 a minute.
Now, what people chat about, canbe left to the imagination. But
she made $70,000 in the firstweek.
Sarah Spence (36:40):
Oh, my goodness.
Danielle Lewis (36:43):
Totally. So and look, it's not just as simple as
Oh, I created an AI version ofmyself. Like there's technology.
There's engineers, all that kindof stuff that actually went into
creating this, they had to trainthe AI to speak like her and but
that to me signifies oh, whereis this actually going? So you
know, there's so manyinfluencers, who, in the early
(37:04):
days they can reply to the DMsthere's only a handful of, you
know, comments coming through,they can kind of really interact
one on one with all of theircommunity. When they get up to
the 100,000 million followers.They just can't do that anymore.
But people still have theappetite to speak with their
favourite influencer. So perhapsAI versions of influences may be
(37:26):
a thing down the line. But weare so early at the moment, I
think I was thinking about itthe other day, right? So we're,
we've implemented AI into theScrunch marketing agency. But
also like, you know, when wewere out pitching Scrunch in the
early days, like the technologyplatform, like we use some AI
features to find and recommendinfluencers. And it was kind of,
(37:49):
I think, a thing in the techworld where we were getting over
saying, oh, yeah, we have AI inour platform. But now I've just
realised that it's now hitmainstream. So I didn't kind of
see it. Because I was a techfounder. I just thought, oh,
yeah, everyone knows about AI.It's I'm getting over talking
about it. People think it's agimmick. Now it has gone
mainstream where anybody can getvalue out of a ChatGPT.
Sarah Spence (38:13):
It'd be cool if there was some version of a GPT
generative pre-trainedtransformer with some artificial
intelligence interface into itthat were influencers could
potentially leverage it torespond to all those comments as
if it's them.
Danielle Lewis (38:29):
And look, we have bots today, but it's not
the same. So I think theintelligence is really thing to
think about and just delineatethe two because you know,
everyone gets those stupid botcomments to like, promote it on
DM, you've won a card. Like thatis right now the simplest
version of commenting andreplying. When we can make it
(38:50):
smart, and reply, like it's thatactual person. Wow, that will
be, that'll be a game changer.
Sarah Spence (38:58):
Can you imagine that? Ai influences, I can
already see that market and thatopportunity where you'd pay top
dollar for a real person. I toldyou it was all something else.
This idea that AI can imitateinfluencers is truly astounding,
and potentially quite creepy.But here we are in a world where
people holidaying in caravans orsunbaking on a beach can
(39:22):
influence what others buy. Butit's kind of always been that
way. I guess it's just thetechnology that has allowed the
space for it to grow. I'velearned so much from Danielle.
The potential for influences ina campaign is enormous. So I'm
going to head to scrunch.comright now to check out Scrunch
365. See what I did there? Itried to influence people to go
(39:45):
to Danielle's business by justcasually mentioning that I'm
going to do it too. That'll workright? You're heading there
right now. Oh dear, Influencermarketing. It feels pretty fun
to me but also beautifullyserious space where when it
comes to impact the sky reallyis the limit. Thanks for joining
(40:08):
me on this journey. If you wantto stay rebellious and how you
practice marketing, how you showup in your workplace and how you
live your life. Please subscribeto the content rebels wherever
you listen to your podcasts.This podcast was recorded on
Awabakal and Darkinjung country.Produced by Pod and Pen
Productions.
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