August 2, 2023 • 40 mins
Kate Toon once worked with some of the most prestigious agencies out there, but after having her son, she created her own success as an author, SEO copywriting and business coach.
Join your host, Sarah Spence as she talks to Kate Toon about:
- Juggling work and children
- The best approach to SEO
- Why you shouldn’t get lazy when it comes to writing copy
- Why the world will wait
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Spence (00:00):
This episode, you and I are going to find out
(00:02):
more about staying at the top ofyour personal success story, in
marketing and in life. Let's getsome sage advice together with
SEO queen, business mentor andauthor, Kate Toon .
Hi, I'm Sarah Spence. I grew aContent Agency from just me to
(00:23):
20 people inside two years. Soyou'd think I had my shit
together. And even though I tryto come at everything with a
rebellious curiosity, I've beenso focused on growing this
thing, but I'm a bit behind inthe trends. Join me on this
journey to find out what'sactually happening in the world
of marketing. Welcome to theContent Rebels.
(00:46):
Marketing, business, life. Noneof it happens in a vacuum. And
if you're anything like me,you've got seven or 70 billion
balls in the air and are busyworking out which one you'll
need to catch first.Fortunately, Kate Toon has been
there and she's here to help usnow. Kate is the head beast as
(01:08):
she calls herself of herStayTooned Empire, which
includes The Digital MarketingCollective, The Recipe for SEO
Success and The CleverCopywriting School. Kate has
worked for some of the mostprestigious agencies out there.
But she left that all behindwhen she had her son, and
instead created her own successthrough what began as a
(01:28):
copywriting businessspecialising in SEO, and grew
into multiple coaching coursesand business communities. She is
also someone I've known for along time. So I was especially
happy to get her on the ContentRebels.
Kate Toon (01:44):
Very excited. What a great name for a podcast!
Sarah Spence (01:47):
And she's written yet another book "Six Figures in
School Hours."
Kate Toon (01:52):
it's very annoying that in the busiest time in your
family life is often the busiestbiggest growth time in your
business.
Sarah Spence (01:59):
We'll get to that later. From the outside, you
might be forgiven for thinkingthat Kate has made all the right
decisions at all the righttimes. But if you know her, or
follow her, even just a littlebit, you'll know she does filter
and question her own decisionmaking quite openly.
Nevertheless, she seems to getit right most of the time
anyway. So I asked her if she'salways had a sense of what to do
(02:21):
next in her business.
Kate Toon (02:23):
Of course, I am an omnipotent being of awesomeness
that plans every step.Absolutely not. You know me,
Sarah, I'm a stumbling bumblingfool most of the time. So I kind
of feel in my business, like,you know, that sensation when
you're running down a hill, andyou briefly feel in control, and
then all of a sudden, you're notand your legs are just doing
that, "Am I gonna fall over?" Ifelt like that for a quite a lot
(02:45):
in my business these days, notso much. I've never been a
planner. I've never written abusiness plan, a marketing plan,
a content strategy, Sarah lovesa strategy.
I'm very iterative in mydevelopment, I am very organic
in my growth. And yeah, that'sboth my superpower and my
kryptonite, because it means I'mopen to every new experience.
(03:08):
I'm willing to try stuff out.There's no real sense of
failure, because I never setmyself up to have a success in
the first place. But it's a bitkind of like, don't know what's
happening next. So it's good andbad.
Sarah Spence (03:22):
You don't ever feel failure?
Kate Toon (03:24):
No, not really.
Sarah Spence (03:25):
That's a good way to look at it.
Kate Toon (03:26):
Yeah. Because I don't set metrics for success. I've
done it before. I think I'vetold you the story. I've only
got three stories, and I justwheel them out again and again.
I set a target to have 5,000followers on Instagram. And a
year later, I had the same thatI started every like four more.
Every time you get a follower onInstagram, you seem to lose
three. It's really bizarre. Butin that time, I'd launched The
(03:50):
Recipe for SEO Success and TheClever Copywriting School. So I
often will create a goal andthen do everything I can to
avoid doing it. I have I thinkit's called objectional defiant
disorder. I may have made thatup.
Sarah Spence (04:01):
No, it is. Yes, Cherie Clonan and I talked about
this, I will figure out theterm.
Kate Toon (04:06):
Yeah, I don't know what it is. But essentially, I
don't like doing what I'm toldeven if it's by myself. So I
curse yesterday me a lot of thetime who set up the day like
today setting up this day andgetting all the times wrong. I
curse yesterday me a lot. Butno, I never feel like a failure
because I don't set myself upfor failure. If that makes sense.
Sarah Spence (04:28):
I love that. I think I need to try that. Yeah,
it's pathological demandavoidance. It's best understood
as an anxiety driven need to bein control and avoid other
people's demands andexpectations. I mean, isn't that
just like, well, that justexplains pretty much everybody I
know.
Kate Toon (04:44):
Yeah. No, mine's different. Mine actually is
objectional defiant disorder,which is uncooperative, defined
and hostile towards peers,parents, teachers and other
authority figures. They are moretroubling to others than they
are to themselves. That is whyI'm gonna put on a t-shirt. I am
troubling to others than I am tomyself. So I think mine's
(05:07):
slightly different.
Sarah Spence (05:08):
Okay.
Kate Toon (05:08):
It's not coming from anxiety, although I have
terrible anxiety. It's comingfrom the fact that I think I
know what to do is best. I amuncoachable. I've tried to have
a book coach for my book, poorwoman, I'm still apologising to
her for this day. I'muncoachable, I'm unbiddable, and
you can't tell me what to do.And even I can't tell myself
(05:31):
what to do, which is a realproblem.
Sarah Spence (05:33):
But you have had so much success?
Kate Toon (05:36):
Yes. To a degree I mean, success. I'm doing air
fingers. I've kept on keepingon. I think that's my biggest
skill. Persistence.
Sarah Spence (05:46):
Persistence. Yes, indeed. And well, your new book,
"Six Figures in School Hours,"it talks to marketers and
working parents in general. Andthe mantra of the book, of
course, is the World Will Wait.Now, this is of course,
something we have talked about.In fact, it's the exact phrase I
believe I was the first personyou said. this to..
Kate Toon (06:06):
You were the first recipient, yes.
Sarah Spence (06:08):
The first recipient of this sage advice
that I think it was probablyearly or late 2016, early 2017
when I was feeling veryconflicted about taking
maternity leave, just as mybusiness was growing. And you
and I sat on a call. I don'tknow where we were...
Kate Toon (06:24):
We were at a bar, Sarah. She doesn't remember it.
We were in a bar in the rocks.It was in the Palisades.
Sarah Spence (06:30):
Yes.
Kate Toon (06:31):
And we sat at the bar. We did have other
conversations. But that was theconversation where I really
think, I don't know it was likea copy school meet up or
something. And that's how...
Sarah Spence (06:39):
Yeah, the first time you and I met in real life
then, and we've obviously goneon to have close connection and
good business, friendship, goodfriendship, friendship. It's
funny, I feel like you told methat over Zoom, but you told me
that in person. You're right.And you told me absolutely the
world will wait and, boy did itever. Why do you think that
particular phrase has been soimpactful? Not just for me, but
(07:02):
I know the many other peopleyou've said it too, as well?
Kate Toon (07:04):
Well, it's something I should have said to myself, I
guess is the thing because likeeverybody else, and most
business people andentrepreneurs, we're insatiably
impatient. We want what we want,and we want it now and our
culture supports that, AmazonPrime. I order something on
Temu. Blooming Temu. It's thebane of my life.
Sarah Spence (07:24):
I've just discovered Temu.
Kate Toon (07:25):
I'll get rid of it. It's the devil's work. I just
described myself as the Wishversion of Amy Porterfield. But
I think I'm the Temu version ofAmy Porterfield cheaper, more
affordable and probably is goingto break down in a couple of
weeks. But anyway, we're so usedto being impatient. And that
breeds into imposter syndromeand comparisonitis. You see Sue
(07:47):
is speaking at such and suchevent, why aren't I speaking at
an event? Even though I've onlybeen running my business for six
days? Why aren't I speaking atthat event? I want it. I want it
now. And it did not serve methat impatience really did not
serve me over the years. And ifI had my time again, as a sage
old business person, I would dothings very differently. Because
I will never get back thatopportunity to take my son to
(08:10):
the park or to play Lego. And Italk about this in the book, why
you can't sit and stare at yourchild all day making organic
muffins. I could have sat andstared a bit more than I did.
And I'll never have that chanceagain.
Sarah Spence (08:22):
Gosh, yeah, it's so true. I took that advice,
I...
Kate Toon (08:27):
...made another human.
Sarah Spence (08:28):
I made another human, I'm like you in that I
find it very difficult to dowhat other people tell me to do
and even what I tell myself, butfor some reason, that phrase,
that advice stuck with me and Idid I shut the whole thing down.
Kate Toon (08:43):
You did.
Sarah Spence (08:44):
Made another human, I had a proper maternity
leave, which I didn't have withour first baby because we had no
money. And I needed to startfreelancing. And that's when you
and I first connected. And Idid. I took that time. And then
the world did wait. And as wewere saying before, now look
what I've done to myself.
Kate Toon (09:04):
Well, you came back bigger and stronger. You know,
sometimes you need to take twosteps back to take five steps
forward, you have some time tokind of marinate and cogitate
and work out who you wanted tobe in and decided you didn't
want to be a freelancer and youhad the capability of running an
agency which many people cannotdo, myself included. And I think
by separating yourself fromyourself, you found yourself and
(09:27):
that's a bit existential andthis is your podcast. So why am
I psychoanalysing you? But itwas a glorious thing to watch
from the sidelines. I use you asan example, far too often of
someone who's done exceedinglywell. And I know that it's come
at a cost at times, but you'vedone amazingly, it's terrifying.
Sarah Spence (09:45):
I have to stop here because from the outside,
it may look like I've doneamazingly well too and I am
really proud of my achievements.But my struggles have been so
similar to pretty much everyother working parent out there.
Just like Kate was talkingabout. Finding that balance
between time with your kids andtime for work, it isn't easy.
(10:08):
And when we reflect, most of usprobably feel that we don't get
it right. And it's somethingthat us working parents are, of
course, constantly reevaluating.Is there a perfect balance? How
does it change as our kids getolder? I don't know the answer.
And I'm definitely yet to findthe right balance. But the truth
(10:29):
is, Kate has been vital incheering me on through my
business journey. And that bitof gold advice that Kate gave me
all those years ago, that theworld will wait, it did help me
because I've put my business tothe side for a little while and
focused on growing my familyinstead. So when it comes to
waiting, I was wondering, whenis the right time? Should we
(10:52):
always be pushing forward andonly stop when we absolutely
need to like when we're about topush out a human? Or is there
some other thing that we shouldbe looking out for like a signal
somehow? I guess what I'm askingis, when it comes to business
decisions, is waiting for theright time important?
Kate Toon (11:11):
I think it's unimportant. My line is, it's
written on the bookmark. If youwait to get all your ducks in a
row, one of them will likely bedead. So I'm a big believer in
just cracking on. Because mostof us learn as we go. There are
perennial course takers who buybook after book and course after
course, to try and get thissense of confidence. But really,
(11:34):
we learn best by doing. All thebad things that are going to
happen happen and they're not asbad as we think they're going to
be. My mum is classic atscenario arising. She'll come up
with 8 different scenarios andinvest so much energy, but
really only ever one of thosescenarios comes to pass. And so,
yeah, I don't think there is aright time. And I think
everything... I think it's MarieForleo has got a book saying
(11:56):
everything's undoable, doable orsomething. I don't know. But
everything's workable-outable.The reason I was late for the
podcast today, embarrassing, wasI'm taking on somebody to manage
to be an executive assistant,right? I've tried a few times
before it hasn't worked out. Icould think well, because it
hasn't worked before, it won'twork again. But that's not true.
I could plan it better. I coulddo a better job description, but
(12:18):
I really won't know until shestarts and we see how it goes.
And if it doesn't work out,doesn't work out. Now, what's
the worst that can happen? Idon't think there is a right
time.
Sarah Spence (12:29):
Yeah, no, that's so true. And it's that whole
concept of "Done is better thanperfect."
Kate Toon (12:34):
Yes.
Sarah Spence (12:35):
And it's something I actually I think I really
struggled with because I'm sucha perfectionist, recovering
perfectionist, but I reallystruggled. And I think a lot of
freelancers, and small businessowners listening would also
agree with, when you're reallyin the weeds of doing what you
do in the business, as well asworking on the business. It's
very easy to really kind of holdon white knuckled to the detail
(13:00):
and to the perfectionism becauseyou are your brand and it's the
whole thing. But actually, as wegot as here, Content
Copywriting, Content Rebels, wegot busier and busier and
busier, I had to let go becauseI couldn't do it all. And that's
actually when the real growthhappened was when I stopped
(13:20):
waiting for the right timing.
Kate Toon (13:22):
But I think it's confidence. So perfectionism is
the is the output of insecurity,of the feeling you're not
enough. Because perfectionism islike, "If I get everything
right, people won't realise thatI don't know what I'm talking
about and I'm not confident. IfI dot every i and cross every t,
then they won't realise that Ifundamentally feel like I'm not
enough. But as time goes on, yourealise you are enough and you
(13:46):
get more confident and you'relike, someone finding a typo in
my email doesn't even cause achink in my armour anymore. Just
slips off me like water off anoily duck. Do you know I mean?
It just doesn't have an impactanymore. Because I am not my
brand. We are our brands, butwe're also not our brand. I am
not that typo. I am not thatemail sent to 6,000 people with
the word Willy in it byaccident. I am me and I am
(14:09):
imperfect. And that is okay. Butthat just takes confidence.
Believe me in my early years, itwas exactly the same, but
perfectionism I think is theflip side of insecurity.
Sarah Spence (14:19):
Yeah, that's so absolutely so true. I think I've
spoken before as well about howanother kind of big shackle came
off me when I really startedowning the fact that I don't
know everything. I mean, that'sactually...
Kate Toon (14:32):
I know. That's glorious.
Sarah Spence (14:33):
Yeah. The whole premise for this podcast is the
fact that I've spent the lastfew years like head down
managing the growth of thisbusiness, which has been amazing
but I'm like really quite farbehind on some of the trends
that I really should be on topof, but I don't claim to know
everything. I don't claim thatwe even do everything, the
inverted commas right way withinour business. We're all growing
(14:56):
all the time, learning all thetime, but I think that the
pressure that it took off myshoulders by actually really
owning the fact that yeah, Iknow what I'm good at. But even
the things I'm good at, I'm notalways great at because
everything evolves and changesall the time.
Kate Toon (15:11):
Well, it's the Dunning Kruger effect, isn't it?
The more you know, the more yourealise you don't know. And I'll
tell you when I started in SEO,I was terrified of teaching the
course because I didn't wantpeople to ask anything outside
the parameters of what I knew. Iwouldn't let people post
questions because I wanted to beable to read them and research
the answer before I let them beposted. I didn't want to speak
(15:33):
at events just in this case,someone put their hand up and
said, "That's not true." Andthen now I remember going to a
conference and seeing somebloke, it's always a bloke isn't
it. And someone said, "Hey,bloody blah, blah, what's the
answer to this?" He went, "Idon't know." And I was like,
"What, you're allowed to saythat?" You're allowed to say you
don't know the answer. And it'sso freeing. And actually, when
you take that shackle as youdescribed, I love that off. It
(15:57):
actually opens you up to learnmore as well, because I was so
rigid. Now I'm like, "I'm wrong?Really?" Okay, cool. Teach me,
teach me. Tell me what I've gotwrong. You're doing my job for
me. Thank you. Thank you somuch. See what I mean? But that
takes a lot of, again, it'sconfidence, isn't it?
Sarah Spence (16:14):
Confidence, it all comes back to confidence. Kate
gained the confidence to say, Idon't know. And she became the
SEO queen anyway. Or maybe thatwas because she was comfortable
enough to say, I don't know. Andthat's why she got to where she
is. But given she is the SEOqueen, let's talk about the
(16:34):
things she does know for amoment. Because there are quite
a few. It's true, the world haschanged an awful lot in the past
few years. And staying at thetop of the SEO game is
relentless. So I wanted to knowif Kate thinks that brands do
still need a full-time SEOexpert? Or does today's CMO have
(16:57):
to be an expert in all thethings, SEO, content marketing,
AI, performance paid? The listgoes on and on.
Kate Toon (17:05):
I mean, I guess it depends on the size of the
company. If you've got 100people in your marketing team,
then no. Do you know I mean?There's a little team
responsible for it. If you'relike a three-person band, then
yeah, you do. So I think itdepends on the team. And do you
need to be an expert? Or do youneed to know an expert? Do you
need to have a source of truth,I've always found it very
important to have a couple ofsources of truth and then ignore
(17:27):
the noise. There's a lot ofnoise about chat GPT and AI and
generative AI at the moment, buta lot of it we don't know yet.
So these are people, these arepundits, these are people saying
I think this might happen. Ithink that might happen. I'm
guessing that this is the wayit's going. But we don't know
yet. And again, it's thatscenario-ising. 99% of what SEO
(17:49):
experts talk about neverhappens. Three years ago, it was
like four years ago, voicesearch is going to change the
internet, did it? No, not atall. Yes, if you search for
something on your Google,whatever, it gives you one
results, but the way that peopleuse voice tools is very
different to how people search.Like, what time is it Google?
That was never a search termanyway, do you know what I mean?
(18:11):
What's the weather tomorrow,Google? Where's the best pizza
place? Is Coles open? Thosesearches are never going to get
us the heaps of traffic andconversion anyway. So I think
the hardest thing as a marketeeris working out what to ignore.
Keeping up with SEO isrelentless. But I'd say a large
part of it hasn't changed in avery, very long time. And even
(18:33):
with all this new stuff, I'mliterally writing my
presentation for the...I'm doinga summit called the AI Summit.
You should come, Sarah. You'denjoy it. And I'm writing my
chunk, which I'm going to coverof SEO. Do I want to? No.
Because I don't want to be theSEO queen anymore. But that's a
whole different conversation.But I'm writing about it. And
the message is still that thebots don't have experience, they
(18:54):
don't have sensation, they don'thave insights. They don't have
feelings. They don't have sense,they can't smell or touch or
feel. And also they're pullingon data, some of them from a
couple of years ago. They haveinherent bias. You can say, tell
me what facts to check. But thenif you're gonna have to go and
check your facts, was it reallyworth generating the content in
the first place? And so far, Ido still struggle to find a use
(19:18):
for chatGPT in my day-to-day,because I will just relentlessly
rewrite everything. And I'drather start with a blank page.
And the final point on this hasgot nothing to do with SEO. I
think part of being a greatcontent marketer is the ability
to start with a blank page. Andif you take that away, I fear
that that muscle will atrophy,that mental muscle.
Sarah Spence (19:39):
Yeah. We were going to do a chatGPT lunch and
learn type masterclass and I gotbusy I didn't but I have written
the presentation and it isliterally called How to Leverage
chatGPT so that it doesn't fuckwith your creativity.
Kate Toon (19:53):
Yes, exactly. People are gonna get rid of the blank
page. I don't want to I get ridof the blank page. The blank
page is what makes us human.Don't take away the blank page.
The robots should be cleaningour toilets not filling out
blank pages. But it isrelentless. To answer your
question I answered in a verylong way, should a CMO be an
expert in everything? I thinkit's impossible to be an expert
in everything. So if SEO is animportant part of your strategy,
(20:16):
which it should be, 69% of alltransactions start with a Google
search still. And I think atleast 69% of your knowledge
should be SEO related.
Sarah Spence (20:26):
Or you should know, experts and ignore the
rest. I love that advice. I knewsomeone a little while ago, who
talked a lot about SEO as beingan art form, which I totally am
aligned with. And then I thoughtabout the fact well, think about
how many different artists thereare and mediums and art forms.
(20:49):
And so if SEO is an art, thenthere must also be many
different practices and artforms in relation to SEO. So
there's so many different waysyou can come at it, and you can
come at it from a purelyperformance base and A/B test
the shit out of your website,and do all of that stuff, or you
can focus on human, audienceread content. There's just so
(21:12):
many different ways to tackleit. It's such a massive beast.
But I also love that wholepremise that it really is an art
form, because that also takesthe pressure off having to know
it all.
Kate Toon (21:21):
Exactly, and most of us are SEO Jackson Pollock's. If
we're honest, we're justthrowing shit against the wall
and hoping it works out. We'renot Rembrandt. We are
Pollock's. So...
Sarah Spence (21:33):
That's the quote of the podcast. Very true.
Kate Toon (21:37):
Be more Pollock.
Sarah Spence (21:38):
Yeah, I love it. Do you feel like a solely SEO
focused strategy is sufficientin 2023 and beyond? Or are you
seeing that shift that I feellike I'm seeing as well, that
shift towards digital contentmarketing as being a necessary
overall strategy of which SEO isa part?
Kate Toon (21:56):
I never believed in a solely SEO strategy. I've never,
ever thought that from day dot.Do you know what I mean? So I
mean, the first milestone of anSEO campaign is to be found for
your own brand. That's theeasiest thing, it's always going
to be easy to be found for whoyou are than what you do. And
how do you build a brand? Notthrough SEO, you build it
through social media, you buildit through video. And then SEO
(22:18):
gets people to your door, butthen you need to use CRO and
conversion tactics to drag themthrough. And then once you drag
them through, you need tonurture them with email
sequences and loyalty programmesand Facebook community. Nah,
it's a tool in the toolkit. Isit an important tool? Yes. Very,
very important. Is it moreimportant than fretting about
(22:38):
your hashtag on some Instagramposts you've done? Yes,
absolutely. That isn't the onlytool. No, no, not at all. Never
was, never will be.
Sarah Spence (22:47):
Yeah. I'm worried about that then for you, because
you've invested a lot andcontinues to in SEO in for your
own business. And you started asa copywriter and then built on
that with the SEO stuff. But nowthat digital master chefs and
everything. How did you changeyour brand from an SEO
perspective over time?
Kate Toon (23:08):
Well, if we're being honest here, I have not done any
significant SEO on any of mybrands in five years. So yes, I
used SEO to build my business.In the early days I did the
things that worked then whichdon't work now, like blogging
every week, that was a reallyfast route to success back then.
These days it's a lot harder.You have to have a proper
(23:29):
strategy with pillars andwaterfalls, Sarah can tell you
about that. But back in the day,you can throw any old crap up
and it would work. I did guestblogs, I did backlink building.
I did keyword research, and yes,that's how I got to where I got
to, and did a local SEO, a bitof e-commerce SEO. These days, I
do no SEO whatsoever. I haven'tresearched a keyword in years.
(23:51):
Because I am my brand. I wentdown the personal brand route.
Love me or hate me, people arenot searching for SEO course if
they want me. They're searchingfor Kate Toon SEO course. And I
don't need to do SEO for that.If I was going after, like,
robot AI Summit, if I wanted tobe known for AI summit, I would
have to go through a whole rampprocess for that. But I don't, I
(24:14):
want people to come to KateToon's AI Summit. So I don't do
SEO, not anymore. But I wonderif I say that I don't do a vert,
SEO, everything I do is thinkingabout the structure of the
content. What H1 have I chosen?Am I building backlinks? I'm
doing a lot of digital PR for mybook. I'm doing it ostensibly to
(24:37):
get my book out to a newaudience. But every post I do
builds a backlink. I'm carefulabout the phrases I use. There's
SEO method to my madness, butit's not as overt as it used to
be.
Sarah Spence (24:47):
Yeah, no, that makes absolute sense. And you're
right, it is so much harder torank and to gain traffic unless
you're putting in significantefforts to particular topics and
all the rest. I think a lot ofbrands are still keen for those
wins. Even 10, 15 years ago itwas keyword stuffing. And how
(25:10):
many times can you say holidaysin Malaga in an article, that
kind of thing, but it is....
Kate Toon (25:16):
...shocking how many people still think that works.
So it's really shocking.
Sarah Spence (25:19):
True, but I actually love that it is harder
now. Because it means that wehave so much more opportunity to
talk about the actual reader,the actual audience, and to
focus in on them. And not justthe performance side, like "Oh,
there's 2000 searches for thisper month." So even if it
doesn't completely align to yourbusiness, let's just hammer it
(25:41):
all in there. You've got to bemore strategic, which, as you
said, I absolutely love. Okay,so what are three SEO strategies
or techniques? Or based on ourconversation just there, the
three kind of brand buildingtechniques that you know that
all businesses and brands shouldbe engaging with this year?
Kate Toon (26:01):
I think fundamentals. I do think if you're coming out
with new products and services,you should survey the landscape
first. When I chose my booktitle "Six Figures in School
Hours," just dropping that inthere. It wasn't like I just
pulled that out of my bottom, Idid Google it. And I'm coming up
with the title for my next book.And I have probably inputted 300
titles into Google. And most ofthem are gone, right? So I think
(26:24):
branding is still veryimportant. Thinking of a unique
brand name, or finding newterritories is really important
for your products and services.I think really sitting down and
establishing again, this ismarketing one on one, your
values, your personality, whoyou want to be in this world,
what do you stand for? Whatwould you not stand for? I think
(26:45):
last couple of years have reallytaught us and this is something
you do with your brands reallywell is, people want to buy from
brands whose values are alignedwith their own. So how do they
know if that's your alignment?You have to tell them, you have
to demonstrate it and it has tobe demonstrated, it can't be
exposition, you can't be like,"We're so generous, we're so
generous, we're so generous."You have to do posters around
(27:07):
the fact that you've justdonated some money to an auto
sanctuary? I don't know. Do youknow what I mean? I think that
brand personality work is stillcrucial from an SEO perspective
and a marketing perspective. Andthen I think the most important
thing in this period is findingyour humanity. Like if you are
not human, you're in bigtrouble. If you're a bit of an
automaton.... Your content needsto show your experience your
(27:29):
joy, your sadness, it needs toemote, it needs to tell a story.
That has always been important,since we're sitting around the
fire outside the cave. And it'seven more important in these
years of Terminator to try andfind your humanity because
content has always been acommodity for a while, right?
Churning out 300-word articles.This is not new. We've known
(27:51):
about this for years, dodgy SEOagencies, they've been doing it
for years...It just got easierwith AI. There's been shit
content for ages. It's just goteasier to make. And we need to
stand against commoditizedcontent.
Sarah Spence (28:03):
Absolutely. And I do wonder about the success
anyway of content that is sohomogenised because, like, it'll
be really interesting to see asthis year plays out whether or
not it it, like I think fromwhat we're seeing is that AI
content can sometimes performwell initially. But it's like
(28:25):
whether it stands the test oftime. I was just on a call with
a client yesterday. And we weretalking about their products
being potentially okay to beused with pets, even though
they're technically for humans.And I brought up the fact that
in 2018, I did some keywordresearch and wrote a series of
blogs for a brand called Nexbawho are huge now. They're
(28:49):
sugar-free drinks brand, alwaysloves their stuff. And they were
at the time the team who werethere, they said "No, look, I
propose we create an articlearound kefir or kefir. I can't
remember what it's like. Kefirfor dogs. And there was about
220 searches a month orsomething, but low carb, low
competition. It's like, I thinkwe should do this. And they're
(29:10):
like, "No, no, our product isn'tfor pets. It's not approved for
pet consumption." I said, "Look,I can write this thing. We can
kind of talk about it. Dogs canhave waterbased kefir, that's
what you sell, etc." And theywere like, "No, no, no, no." And
then eventually, they said,"Yes. Okay." That piece of
content, the search volumearound kefir for dogs now is in
(29:31):
the 1000s every month, and theyare still position four. And
they were position one for manyyears. And now there's a whole
heap of other brands that havebought out actual kefir for
dogs. I looked at it justyesterday, they're still
position four. And I'm like, Idon't know that a piece of AI
content would stand, what'sthat? Five years ago, would
(29:51):
still be on the first page infive years time. So it'll be
interesting.
Kate Toon (29:55):
It'll be but it still took a human to see the
potential to have an argumentwith the brand to work out how
you can position that to make itwork and not get them in trouble
legally and whatever. It stilltook a human to kind of define
that. Now, design is that, AIwon't replace content writers
(30:15):
but content writers who use AIwill replace content writers.
And I think it is about theprompts and what you feed into
the tool, but you still have tofeed something into the tool.
And then when it comes out, youstill have to have the nulls to
understand that I can't saythat. We legally can't say that
in Australia. That's against APAguidelines, that's against the
financial guidelines, you stillneed someone at the other end.
(30:37):
Not fact checking, anyone cancheck a fact. But saying, is
this the right time? Let's readthe room. Is it the right time
to be putting out a piece ofcontent about this right now?
What just happened in the newsyesterday? There's so many
factors and seeing those trends.I mean, if you typed Harry and
Megan into the search engineseven years ago, it would have
(30:57):
bought back nothing. The worldchanges, we evolve. Generative
AI is a huge, huge change. But Idon't think we should be
terrified. I'm tired by it. Imust admit I feel tired by it
but I don't feel terrified.
Sarah Spence (31:15):
I do too. I feel like it's one more thing to kind
of have to keep your head aroundand keep on top of, but I really
love what you said at thebeginning around, pick your
experts and then ignore the restof the noise because I think
I've definitely got into a bitof a spiral of comparisonitis
and...
Kate Toon (31:32):
Yes. I have too. It's LinkedIn, it's blooming
LinkedIn. It's the devil's work.I try and stay off that
platform. What's it called? Ipost and I'm pissed off, because
I just don't want to consumeother people's content on there.
Because everyone's an expert.Literally, no people who a month
ago knew nothing about chatGPTand now are experts. And I mean,
(31:53):
there's nothing wrong with that,you can do that. You can go hard
on a topic for a month. I'veseen it all before, I think. I'm
a little bit jaded, there'll bea new thing coming along fairly
soon. I don't want to be thatperson who said, "Oh, the
internet's never gonna takeoff?" Of course, it will take
off and it'll be amazing. Andwe'll all enjoy it as long as
(32:13):
we're not frightened of it.
Sarah Spence (32:14):
Yes, indeed, indeed. And I think as well,
something I said on a commentyesterday on LinkedIn. I used a
word or a phrase that I've seenso much, and I feel like it's
totally out there everywhere.And I had two people comment on
and say, "Oh, I've never heardthat before."
Kate Toon (32:33):
This is it. [inaudible]
Sarah Spence (32:35):
It's just our own little echoed.
Kate Toon (32:37):
We're in a bubble. I was on a call. I've used this
example. I was on a call. And Iwas talking to someone about how
they could drop all these oddlyshaped logos into one canvas on
Canva and export them andthere'll be the same size. And
he was like, "What's Canva?"
Sarah Spence (32:49):
Wow.
Kate Toon (32:50):
Yeah, do you know waht I mean? We think these
things are common knowledge.People don't know about it, even
if they know about it, theydon't understand it, even if
they understand it, they don'twant to use it. And that's true
of so many parts of marketing. Anumber of people who've gone
through my course they knoweverything about SEO, they're
perfectly capable of doing itthemselves, but they don't want
to. And therefore there willalways be a role for us to help
(33:14):
the people who don't want to.
Sarah Spence (33:15):
Let's pause for a moment and look at all the SEO
advice, there will always bework for the doers, as no brand
can be the expert in all thethings. And that takes me back
to those boring fundamentals.Brands must figure out the space
they want to own and then putthe blinkers on and not look
elsewhere. Because all that doesis create stress and tension in
(33:37):
life. And we have enough stressand tension just running
businesses whilst looking aftera family, right? Yeah. So let's
talk a bit more about Kate's newbook, Six Figures in School
Hours. Within that book, shemanages to give an
extraordinarily honest insightinto what it's like trying to be
a good parent whilst running abusiness. So let's finish in a
(34:00):
similar place to where we beganjuggling all the balls. But this
time, I wanted to know how Katehas gone with the juggle as her
own son has grown.
Kate Toon (34:10):
Yes, I mean, I think the first year is just chit, all
the way up until the daycarehelps a lot. And that freed up
my world a bit, but not muchreally. Do you know what mean?
If we're honest, they go andyou're like, just want to lie on
the floor and weep for half theday and then you realise they're
coming back and you try and dosomething. My business didn't
really take off until my sonwent to school. That was when I
started doing all the kinds ofbig sexy things that you see now
(34:33):
about 2015. So my son would havebeen five, six. So that was a
big pivotal. I used the wordpivot, pivotal year for me. And
then, I think the great years,the easy years with your kids
are 7, 8, 9 and 10. Reallygreat. They can feed themselves.
They can do everything. They'rereally pleasant and beautiful.
And then you get to 11 andliterally it was like if you
(34:54):
haven't seen it, there's aamazing Harry Enfield sketch
where Kevin the teenager turnsinto a teenager and it happens
overnight. You got to watch it,I'll send it to you after this.
I saw a massive shift in my son.And a shift in me and my
business, I'm so much moremature, you'd be amazed Sarah. I
don't react, I don't gettriggered, I don't care. I don't
(35:16):
compare myself as much to a bit.So now I've got all the time in
the world to do whatever I want.And I don't want to do any of it
really, I just want to go andlive in a yatcht. So it's very
annoying that in the busiesttime in your family life is
often the busiest biggest growthtime in your business. And then
just as your kids start to geteasier, you're like, "I don't
(35:38):
know, if I can really bebothered anymore." I don't know
if there's something about thatperiod of driving to have a
family, you're also trying tobuild a home and pay off
mortgages and accumulatefurniture, you're working on
your life, it's mental, it'sfull on. And then you kind of
come out the other side of itand it's bizarre. I've got all
the time in the world. I'mbobbing off to Melbourne and
(35:58):
Perth and Adelaide and taking aholiday with our best mate, all
the time in the world now. Andgosh, I wish I could just watch
Finding Nemo again with my sixyear old. It's a shame, you
know.
Sarah Spence (36:11):
It is. But I mean, I think gosh, here we go coming
full circle in this podcast. Butit comes back to the worlds will
wait. Well, sometimes,unfortunately, your financial
situation may not wait. But youdo need to make sacrifices
potentially, but ultimately,yeah, the world will wait. And
(36:33):
me now eight years in, havinggone from freelancing, to
growing a bit, to shutting thewhole thing down, to freelancing
again, to then growing to thepoint we're at now, 20 people
and all the rest. It'sabsolutely, the world did wait,
my kids didn't. And I took thattime with them. And I still get
(36:54):
to have a reasonable balance.But I think it's something about
really pressing, pressing hardon all of those big life things
all at the same time thatthen...
Kate Toon (37:06):
It's a lot. Yeah, all of the buttons. Well, there's a
great book you can read thatwill help with that. ButI do
think that family is for a shortperiod. I mean, if you do it
right, your kids will alwayscome back. But if it goes so
quickly, you're gonna regret it.And you can't be like that. You
need your own sense of selfworth and your own direction,
(37:26):
you need money for God's sake.We're not saying that you need
to pick or choose. But family isfor a short time, it sounds smug
and flippant. There will alwaysbe more money, you will always
find something to do. But thatperiod of having your family at
home and pack lunches, and allof that, trying to do a Zoom, my
kid's gaming in the other room,you'll get to that bits,
(37:48):
brilliant. It goes, it's goingto end. I've got four years left
before my son is probably off touniversity, and then I'll still
have him hopefully, he'll comeback forever or probably be
living in my garage when he's47. But now I'm very conscious
of the fact that I'm notsacrificing my family time for
my business. I am lucky that Ihave the financial wherewithal
(38:08):
to make that decision because somany don't
Sarah Spence (38:12):
Yes, so many don't. Absolutely. And I think
anyone who's in that kind ofearlier phase, who's trying to
make decisions around it, we'redefinitely not saying don't do
it. Like, do it. Do both ofthings. Have it all, but just if
you've got to make the choicebetween taking on that new
(38:32):
contract next week, or perhapsdelaying it by a few weeks,
that's where the world willwait. It's worth going to the
assemblies, and going...
Kate Toon (38:42):
It's not worth doing canteen, though.
Sarah Spence (38:44):
No, don't do canteen.
Kate Toon (38:45):
Yeah. But I think you're so right. And yeah, the
world will wait. I do think thatmantra works pretty well. You
can have it all, but just not atthe same time.
Sarah Spence (38:59):
There we are full circle, we're back at that
mantra. The World Will Wait.It's not lost on me that the
women working in marketingtoday, we're likely the first
generation trying to figure thisout. Our mothers may have been
the first generation to be toldthat they can have both, and
they worked their butts off toget to a point of being allowed
(39:21):
the choice between both work andfamily. But now we're working on
how to manage that choice fromthe get go. Kate has done
exceedingly well in herbusiness, juggling all the
things and being quite open andhonest when she's occasionally
dropped some of those balls, andI think that's one of her
superpowers. Being honest andopen about the struggle is a
(39:44):
refreshing way to connect andcommunicate with both colleagues
and clients. And I think it'ssomething that we can all learn
to do a little bit more. Thanksfor joining me on this journey.
If you want to stay rebelliousin how you practice marketing,
how you show up in yourworkplace and how you live your
(40:04):
life, please subscribe to theContent Rebels wherever you
listen to your podcasts. Thispodcast was recorded on Awabakal
and Darkinjung country. Producedby Pod and Pen Productions.
This episode, you and I are going to find out
(00:02):
more about staying at the top ofyour personal success story, in
marketing and in life. Let's getsome sage advice together with
SEO queen, business mentor andauthor, Kate Toon .
Hi, I'm Sarah Spence. I grew aContent Agency from just me to
(00:23):
20 people inside two years. Soyou'd think I had my shit
together. And even though I tryto come at everything with a
rebellious curiosity, I've beenso focused on growing this
thing, but I'm a bit behind inthe trends. Join me on this
journey to find out what'sactually happening in the world
of marketing. Welcome to theContent Rebels.
(00:46):
Marketing, business, life. Noneof it happens in a vacuum. And
if you're anything like me,you've got seven or 70 billion
balls in the air and are busyworking out which one you'll
need to catch first.Fortunately, Kate Toon has been
there and she's here to help usnow. Kate is the head beast as
(01:08):
she calls herself of herStayTooned Empire, which
includes The Digital MarketingCollective, The Recipe for SEO
Success and The CleverCopywriting School. Kate has
worked for some of the mostprestigious agencies out there.
But she left that all behindwhen she had her son, and
instead created her own successthrough what began as a
(01:28):
copywriting businessspecialising in SEO, and grew
into multiple coaching coursesand business communities. She is
also someone I've known for along time. So I was especially
happy to get her on the ContentRebels.
Kate Toon (01:44):
Very excited. What a great name for a podcast!
Sarah Spence (01:47):
And she's written yet another book "Six Figures in
School Hours."
Kate Toon (01:52):
it's very annoying that in the busiest time in your
family life is often the busiestbiggest growth time in your
business.
Sarah Spence (01:59):
We'll get to that later. From the outside, you
might be forgiven for thinkingthat Kate has made all the right
decisions at all the righttimes. But if you know her, or
follow her, even just a littlebit, you'll know she does filter
and question her own decisionmaking quite openly.
Nevertheless, she seems to getit right most of the time
anyway. So I asked her if she'salways had a sense of what to do
(02:21):
next in her business.
Kate Toon (02:23):
Of course, I am an omnipotent being of awesomeness
that plans every step.Absolutely not. You know me,
Sarah, I'm a stumbling bumblingfool most of the time. So I kind
of feel in my business, like,you know, that sensation when
you're running down a hill, andyou briefly feel in control, and
then all of a sudden, you're notand your legs are just doing
that, "Am I gonna fall over?" Ifelt like that for a quite a lot
(02:45):
in my business these days, notso much. I've never been a
planner. I've never written abusiness plan, a marketing plan,
a content strategy, Sarah lovesa strategy.
I'm very iterative in mydevelopment, I am very organic
in my growth. And yeah, that'sboth my superpower and my
kryptonite, because it means I'mopen to every new experience.
(03:08):
I'm willing to try stuff out.There's no real sense of
failure, because I never setmyself up to have a success in
the first place. But it's a bitkind of like, don't know what's
happening next. So it's good andbad.
Sarah Spence (03:22):
You don't ever feel failure?
Kate Toon (03:24):
No, not really.
Sarah Spence (03:25):
That's a good way to look at it.
Kate Toon (03:26):
Yeah. Because I don't set metrics for success. I've
done it before. I think I'vetold you the story. I've only
got three stories, and I justwheel them out again and again.
I set a target to have 5,000followers on Instagram. And a
year later, I had the same thatI started every like four more.
Every time you get a follower onInstagram, you seem to lose
three. It's really bizarre. Butin that time, I'd launched The
(03:50):
Recipe for SEO Success and TheClever Copywriting School. So I
often will create a goal andthen do everything I can to
avoid doing it. I have I thinkit's called objectional defiant
disorder. I may have made thatup.
Sarah Spence (04:01):
No, it is. Yes, Cherie Clonan and I talked about
this, I will figure out theterm.
Kate Toon (04:06):
Yeah, I don't know what it is. But essentially, I
don't like doing what I'm toldeven if it's by myself. So I
curse yesterday me a lot of thetime who set up the day like
today setting up this day andgetting all the times wrong. I
curse yesterday me a lot. Butno, I never feel like a failure
because I don't set myself upfor failure. If that makes sense.
Sarah Spence (04:28):
I love that. I think I need to try that. Yeah,
it's pathological demandavoidance. It's best understood
as an anxiety driven need to bein control and avoid other
people's demands andexpectations. I mean, isn't that
just like, well, that justexplains pretty much everybody I
know.
Kate Toon (04:44):
Yeah. No, mine's different. Mine actually is
objectional defiant disorder,which is uncooperative, defined
and hostile towards peers,parents, teachers and other
authority figures. They are moretroubling to others than they
are to themselves. That is whyI'm gonna put on a t-shirt. I am
troubling to others than I am tomyself. So I think mine's
(05:07):
slightly different.
Sarah Spence (05:08):
Okay.
Kate Toon (05:08):
It's not coming from anxiety, although I have
terrible anxiety. It's comingfrom the fact that I think I
know what to do is best. I amuncoachable. I've tried to have
a book coach for my book, poorwoman, I'm still apologising to
her for this day. I'muncoachable, I'm unbiddable, and
you can't tell me what to do.And even I can't tell myself
(05:31):
what to do, which is a realproblem.
Sarah Spence (05:33):
But you have had so much success?
Kate Toon (05:36):
Yes. To a degree I mean, success. I'm doing air
fingers. I've kept on keepingon. I think that's my biggest
skill. Persistence.
Sarah Spence (05:46):
Persistence. Yes, indeed. And well, your new book,
"Six Figures in School Hours,"it talks to marketers and
working parents in general. Andthe mantra of the book, of
course, is the World Will Wait.Now, this is of course,
something we have talked about.In fact, it's the exact phrase I
believe I was the first personyou said. this to..
Kate Toon (06:06):
You were the first recipient, yes.
Sarah Spence (06:08):
The first recipient of this sage advice
that I think it was probablyearly or late 2016, early 2017
when I was feeling veryconflicted about taking
maternity leave, just as mybusiness was growing. And you
and I sat on a call. I don'tknow where we were...
Kate Toon (06:24):
We were at a bar, Sarah. She doesn't remember it.
We were in a bar in the rocks.It was in the Palisades.
Sarah Spence (06:30):
Yes.
Kate Toon (06:31):
And we sat at the bar. We did have other
conversations. But that was theconversation where I really
think, I don't know it was likea copy school meet up or
something. And that's how...
Sarah Spence (06:39):
Yeah, the first time you and I met in real life
then, and we've obviously goneon to have close connection and
good business, friendship, goodfriendship, friendship. It's
funny, I feel like you told methat over Zoom, but you told me
that in person. You're right.And you told me absolutely the
world will wait and, boy did itever. Why do you think that
particular phrase has been soimpactful? Not just for me, but
(07:02):
I know the many other peopleyou've said it too, as well?
Kate Toon (07:04):
Well, it's something I should have said to myself, I
guess is the thing because likeeverybody else, and most
business people andentrepreneurs, we're insatiably
impatient. We want what we want,and we want it now and our
culture supports that, AmazonPrime. I order something on
Temu. Blooming Temu. It's thebane of my life.
Sarah Spence (07:24):
I've just discovered Temu.
Kate Toon (07:25):
I'll get rid of it. It's the devil's work. I just
described myself as the Wishversion of Amy Porterfield. But
I think I'm the Temu version ofAmy Porterfield cheaper, more
affordable and probably is goingto break down in a couple of
weeks. But anyway, we're so usedto being impatient. And that
breeds into imposter syndromeand comparisonitis. You see Sue
(07:47):
is speaking at such and suchevent, why aren't I speaking at
an event? Even though I've onlybeen running my business for six
days? Why aren't I speaking atthat event? I want it. I want it
now. And it did not serve methat impatience really did not
serve me over the years. And ifI had my time again, as a sage
old business person, I would dothings very differently. Because
I will never get back thatopportunity to take my son to
(08:10):
the park or to play Lego. And Italk about this in the book, why
you can't sit and stare at yourchild all day making organic
muffins. I could have sat andstared a bit more than I did.
And I'll never have that chanceagain.
Sarah Spence (08:22):
Gosh, yeah, it's so true. I took that advice,
I...
Kate Toon (08:27):
...made another human.
Sarah Spence (08:28):
I made another human, I'm like you in that I
find it very difficult to dowhat other people tell me to do
and even what I tell myself, butfor some reason, that phrase,
that advice stuck with me and Idid I shut the whole thing down.
Kate Toon (08:43):
You did.
Sarah Spence (08:44):
Made another human, I had a proper maternity
leave, which I didn't have withour first baby because we had no
money. And I needed to startfreelancing. And that's when you
and I first connected. And Idid. I took that time. And then
the world did wait. And as wewere saying before, now look
what I've done to myself.
Kate Toon (09:04):
Well, you came back bigger and stronger. You know,
sometimes you need to take twosteps back to take five steps
forward, you have some time tokind of marinate and cogitate
and work out who you wanted tobe in and decided you didn't
want to be a freelancer and youhad the capability of running an
agency which many people cannotdo, myself included. And I think
by separating yourself fromyourself, you found yourself and
(09:27):
that's a bit existential andthis is your podcast. So why am
I psychoanalysing you? But itwas a glorious thing to watch
from the sidelines. I use you asan example, far too often of
someone who's done exceedinglywell. And I know that it's come
at a cost at times, but you'vedone amazingly, it's terrifying.
Sarah Spence (09:45):
I have to stop here because from the outside,
it may look like I've doneamazingly well too and I am
really proud of my achievements.But my struggles have been so
similar to pretty much everyother working parent out there.
Just like Kate was talkingabout. Finding that balance
between time with your kids andtime for work, it isn't easy.
(10:08):
And when we reflect, most of usprobably feel that we don't get
it right. And it's somethingthat us working parents are, of
course, constantly reevaluating.Is there a perfect balance? How
does it change as our kids getolder? I don't know the answer.
And I'm definitely yet to findthe right balance. But the truth
(10:29):
is, Kate has been vital incheering me on through my
business journey. And that bitof gold advice that Kate gave me
all those years ago, that theworld will wait, it did help me
because I've put my business tothe side for a little while and
focused on growing my familyinstead. So when it comes to
waiting, I was wondering, whenis the right time? Should we
(10:52):
always be pushing forward andonly stop when we absolutely
need to like when we're about topush out a human? Or is there
some other thing that we shouldbe looking out for like a signal
somehow? I guess what I'm askingis, when it comes to business
decisions, is waiting for theright time important?
Kate Toon (11:11):
I think it's unimportant. My line is, it's
written on the bookmark. If youwait to get all your ducks in a
row, one of them will likely bedead. So I'm a big believer in
just cracking on. Because mostof us learn as we go. There are
perennial course takers who buybook after book and course after
course, to try and get thissense of confidence. But really,
(11:34):
we learn best by doing. All thebad things that are going to
happen happen and they're not asbad as we think they're going to
be. My mum is classic atscenario arising. She'll come up
with 8 different scenarios andinvest so much energy, but
really only ever one of thosescenarios comes to pass. And so,
yeah, I don't think there is aright time. And I think
everything... I think it's MarieForleo has got a book saying
(11:56):
everything's undoable, doable orsomething. I don't know. But
everything's workable-outable.The reason I was late for the
podcast today, embarrassing, wasI'm taking on somebody to manage
to be an executive assistant,right? I've tried a few times
before it hasn't worked out. Icould think well, because it
hasn't worked before, it won'twork again. But that's not true.
I could plan it better. I coulddo a better job description, but
(12:18):
I really won't know until shestarts and we see how it goes.
And if it doesn't work out,doesn't work out. Now, what's
the worst that can happen? Idon't think there is a right
time.
Sarah Spence (12:29):
Yeah, no, that's so true. And it's that whole
concept of "Done is better thanperfect."
Kate Toon (12:34):
Yes.
Sarah Spence (12:35):
And it's something I actually I think I really
struggled with because I'm sucha perfectionist, recovering
perfectionist, but I reallystruggled. And I think a lot of
freelancers, and small businessowners listening would also
agree with, when you're reallyin the weeds of doing what you
do in the business, as well asworking on the business. It's
very easy to really kind of holdon white knuckled to the detail
(13:00):
and to the perfectionism becauseyou are your brand and it's the
whole thing. But actually, as wegot as here, Content
Copywriting, Content Rebels, wegot busier and busier and
busier, I had to let go becauseI couldn't do it all. And that's
actually when the real growthhappened was when I stopped
(13:20):
waiting for the right timing.
Kate Toon (13:22):
But I think it's confidence. So perfectionism is
the is the output of insecurity,of the feeling you're not
enough. Because perfectionism islike, "If I get everything
right, people won't realise thatI don't know what I'm talking
about and I'm not confident. IfI dot every i and cross every t,
then they won't realise that Ifundamentally feel like I'm not
enough. But as time goes on, yourealise you are enough and you
(13:46):
get more confident and you'relike, someone finding a typo in
my email doesn't even cause achink in my armour anymore. Just
slips off me like water off anoily duck. Do you know I mean?
It just doesn't have an impactanymore. Because I am not my
brand. We are our brands, butwe're also not our brand. I am
not that typo. I am not thatemail sent to 6,000 people with
the word Willy in it byaccident. I am me and I am
(14:09):
imperfect. And that is okay. Butthat just takes confidence.
Believe me in my early years, itwas exactly the same, but
perfectionism I think is theflip side of insecurity.
Sarah Spence (14:19):
Yeah, that's so absolutely so true. I think I've
spoken before as well about howanother kind of big shackle came
off me when I really startedowning the fact that I don't
know everything. I mean, that'sactually...
Kate Toon (14:32):
I know. That's glorious.
Sarah Spence (14:33):
Yeah. The whole premise for this podcast is the
fact that I've spent the lastfew years like head down
managing the growth of thisbusiness, which has been amazing
but I'm like really quite farbehind on some of the trends
that I really should be on topof, but I don't claim to know
everything. I don't claim thatwe even do everything, the
inverted commas right way withinour business. We're all growing
(14:56):
all the time, learning all thetime, but I think that the
pressure that it took off myshoulders by actually really
owning the fact that yeah, Iknow what I'm good at. But even
the things I'm good at, I'm notalways great at because
everything evolves and changesall the time.
Kate Toon (15:11):
Well, it's the Dunning Kruger effect, isn't it?
The more you know, the more yourealise you don't know. And I'll
tell you when I started in SEO,I was terrified of teaching the
course because I didn't wantpeople to ask anything outside
the parameters of what I knew. Iwouldn't let people post
questions because I wanted to beable to read them and research
the answer before I let them beposted. I didn't want to speak
(15:33):
at events just in this case,someone put their hand up and
said, "That's not true." Andthen now I remember going to a
conference and seeing somebloke, it's always a bloke isn't
it. And someone said, "Hey,bloody blah, blah, what's the
answer to this?" He went, "Idon't know." And I was like,
"What, you're allowed to saythat?" You're allowed to say you
don't know the answer. And it'sso freeing. And actually, when
you take that shackle as youdescribed, I love that off. It
(15:57):
actually opens you up to learnmore as well, because I was so
rigid. Now I'm like, "I'm wrong?Really?" Okay, cool. Teach me,
teach me. Tell me what I've gotwrong. You're doing my job for
me. Thank you. Thank you somuch. See what I mean? But that
takes a lot of, again, it'sconfidence, isn't it?
Sarah Spence (16:14):
Confidence, it all comes back to confidence. Kate
gained the confidence to say, Idon't know. And she became the
SEO queen anyway. Or maybe thatwas because she was comfortable
enough to say, I don't know. Andthat's why she got to where she
is. But given she is the SEOqueen, let's talk about the
(16:34):
things she does know for amoment. Because there are quite
a few. It's true, the world haschanged an awful lot in the past
few years. And staying at thetop of the SEO game is
relentless. So I wanted to knowif Kate thinks that brands do
still need a full-time SEOexpert? Or does today's CMO have
(16:57):
to be an expert in all thethings, SEO, content marketing,
AI, performance paid? The listgoes on and on.
Kate Toon (17:05):
I mean, I guess it depends on the size of the
company. If you've got 100people in your marketing team,
then no. Do you know I mean?There's a little team
responsible for it. If you'relike a three-person band, then
yeah, you do. So I think itdepends on the team. And do you
need to be an expert? Or do youneed to know an expert? Do you
need to have a source of truth,I've always found it very
important to have a couple ofsources of truth and then ignore
(17:27):
the noise. There's a lot ofnoise about chat GPT and AI and
generative AI at the moment, buta lot of it we don't know yet.
So these are people, these arepundits, these are people saying
I think this might happen. Ithink that might happen. I'm
guessing that this is the wayit's going. But we don't know
yet. And again, it's thatscenario-ising. 99% of what SEO
(17:49):
experts talk about neverhappens. Three years ago, it was
like four years ago, voicesearch is going to change the
internet, did it? No, not atall. Yes, if you search for
something on your Google,whatever, it gives you one
results, but the way that peopleuse voice tools is very
different to how people search.Like, what time is it Google?
That was never a search termanyway, do you know what I mean?
(18:11):
What's the weather tomorrow,Google? Where's the best pizza
place? Is Coles open? Thosesearches are never going to get
us the heaps of traffic andconversion anyway. So I think
the hardest thing as a marketeeris working out what to ignore.
Keeping up with SEO isrelentless. But I'd say a large
part of it hasn't changed in avery, very long time. And even
(18:33):
with all this new stuff, I'mliterally writing my
presentation for the...I'm doinga summit called the AI Summit.
You should come, Sarah. You'denjoy it. And I'm writing my
chunk, which I'm going to coverof SEO. Do I want to? No.
Because I don't want to be theSEO queen anymore. But that's a
whole different conversation.But I'm writing about it. And
the message is still that thebots don't have experience, they
(18:54):
don't have sensation, they don'thave insights. They don't have
feelings. They don't have sense,they can't smell or touch or
feel. And also they're pullingon data, some of them from a
couple of years ago. They haveinherent bias. You can say, tell
me what facts to check. But thenif you're gonna have to go and
check your facts, was it reallyworth generating the content in
the first place? And so far, Ido still struggle to find a use
(19:18):
for chatGPT in my day-to-day,because I will just relentlessly
rewrite everything. And I'drather start with a blank page.
And the final point on this hasgot nothing to do with SEO. I
think part of being a greatcontent marketer is the ability
to start with a blank page. Andif you take that away, I fear
that that muscle will atrophy,that mental muscle.
Sarah Spence (19:39):
Yeah. We were going to do a chatGPT lunch and
learn type masterclass and I gotbusy I didn't but I have written
the presentation and it isliterally called How to Leverage
chatGPT so that it doesn't fuckwith your creativity.
Kate Toon (19:53):
Yes, exactly. People are gonna get rid of the blank
page. I don't want to I get ridof the blank page. The blank
page is what makes us human.Don't take away the blank page.
The robots should be cleaningour toilets not filling out
blank pages. But it isrelentless. To answer your
question I answered in a verylong way, should a CMO be an
expert in everything? I thinkit's impossible to be an expert
in everything. So if SEO is animportant part of your strategy,
(20:16):
which it should be, 69% of alltransactions start with a Google
search still. And I think atleast 69% of your knowledge
should be SEO related.
Sarah Spence (20:26):
Or you should know, experts and ignore the
rest. I love that advice. I knewsomeone a little while ago, who
talked a lot about SEO as beingan art form, which I totally am
aligned with. And then I thoughtabout the fact well, think about
how many different artists thereare and mediums and art forms.
(20:49):
And so if SEO is an art, thenthere must also be many
different practices and artforms in relation to SEO. So
there's so many different waysyou can come at it, and you can
come at it from a purelyperformance base and A/B test
the shit out of your website,and do all of that stuff, or you
can focus on human, audienceread content. There's just so
(21:12):
many different ways to tackleit. It's such a massive beast.
But I also love that wholepremise that it really is an art
form, because that also takesthe pressure off having to know
it all.
Kate Toon (21:21):
Exactly, and most of us are SEO Jackson Pollock's. If
we're honest, we're justthrowing shit against the wall
and hoping it works out. We'renot Rembrandt. We are
Pollock's. So...
Sarah Spence (21:33):
That's the quote of the podcast. Very true.
Kate Toon (21:37):
Be more Pollock.
Sarah Spence (21:38):
Yeah, I love it. Do you feel like a solely SEO
focused strategy is sufficientin 2023 and beyond? Or are you
seeing that shift that I feellike I'm seeing as well, that
shift towards digital contentmarketing as being a necessary
overall strategy of which SEO isa part?
Kate Toon (21:56):
I never believed in a solely SEO strategy. I've never,
ever thought that from day dot.Do you know what I mean? So I
mean, the first milestone of anSEO campaign is to be found for
your own brand. That's theeasiest thing, it's always going
to be easy to be found for whoyou are than what you do. And
how do you build a brand? Notthrough SEO, you build it
through social media, you buildit through video. And then SEO
(22:18):
gets people to your door, butthen you need to use CRO and
conversion tactics to drag themthrough. And then once you drag
them through, you need tonurture them with email
sequences and loyalty programmesand Facebook community. Nah,
it's a tool in the toolkit. Isit an important tool? Yes. Very,
very important. Is it moreimportant than fretting about
(22:38):
your hashtag on some Instagramposts you've done? Yes,
absolutely. That isn't the onlytool. No, no, not at all. Never
was, never will be.
Sarah Spence (22:47):
Yeah. I'm worried about that then for you, because
you've invested a lot andcontinues to in SEO in for your
own business. And you started asa copywriter and then built on
that with the SEO stuff. But nowthat digital master chefs and
everything. How did you changeyour brand from an SEO
perspective over time?
Kate Toon (23:08):
Well, if we're being honest here, I have not done any
significant SEO on any of mybrands in five years. So yes, I
used SEO to build my business.In the early days I did the
things that worked then whichdon't work now, like blogging
every week, that was a reallyfast route to success back then.
These days it's a lot harder.You have to have a proper
(23:29):
strategy with pillars andwaterfalls, Sarah can tell you
about that. But back in the day,you can throw any old crap up
and it would work. I did guestblogs, I did backlink building.
I did keyword research, and yes,that's how I got to where I got
to, and did a local SEO, a bitof e-commerce SEO. These days, I
do no SEO whatsoever. I haven'tresearched a keyword in years.
(23:51):
Because I am my brand. I wentdown the personal brand route.
Love me or hate me, people arenot searching for SEO course if
they want me. They're searchingfor Kate Toon SEO course. And I
don't need to do SEO for that.If I was going after, like,
robot AI Summit, if I wanted tobe known for AI summit, I would
have to go through a whole rampprocess for that. But I don't, I
(24:14):
want people to come to KateToon's AI Summit. So I don't do
SEO, not anymore. But I wonderif I say that I don't do a vert,
SEO, everything I do is thinkingabout the structure of the
content. What H1 have I chosen?Am I building backlinks? I'm
doing a lot of digital PR for mybook. I'm doing it ostensibly to
(24:37):
get my book out to a newaudience. But every post I do
builds a backlink. I'm carefulabout the phrases I use. There's
SEO method to my madness, butit's not as overt as it used to
be.
Sarah Spence (24:47):
Yeah, no, that makes absolute sense. And you're
right, it is so much harder torank and to gain traffic unless
you're putting in significantefforts to particular topics and
all the rest. I think a lot ofbrands are still keen for those
wins. Even 10, 15 years ago itwas keyword stuffing. And how
(25:10):
many times can you say holidaysin Malaga in an article, that
kind of thing, but it is....
Kate Toon (25:16):
...shocking how many people still think that works.
So it's really shocking.
Sarah Spence (25:19):
True, but I actually love that it is harder
now. Because it means that wehave so much more opportunity to
talk about the actual reader,the actual audience, and to
focus in on them. And not justthe performance side, like "Oh,
there's 2000 searches for thisper month." So even if it
doesn't completely align to yourbusiness, let's just hammer it
(25:41):
all in there. You've got to bemore strategic, which, as you
said, I absolutely love. Okay,so what are three SEO strategies
or techniques? Or based on ourconversation just there, the
three kind of brand buildingtechniques that you know that
all businesses and brands shouldbe engaging with this year?
Kate Toon (26:01):
I think fundamentals. I do think if you're coming out
with new products and services,you should survey the landscape
first. When I chose my booktitle "Six Figures in School
Hours," just dropping that inthere. It wasn't like I just
pulled that out of my bottom, Idid Google it. And I'm coming up
with the title for my next book.And I have probably inputted 300
titles into Google. And most ofthem are gone, right? So I think
(26:24):
branding is still veryimportant. Thinking of a unique
brand name, or finding newterritories is really important
for your products and services.I think really sitting down and
establishing again, this ismarketing one on one, your
values, your personality, whoyou want to be in this world,
what do you stand for? Whatwould you not stand for? I think
(26:45):
last couple of years have reallytaught us and this is something
you do with your brands reallywell is, people want to buy from
brands whose values are alignedwith their own. So how do they
know if that's your alignment?You have to tell them, you have
to demonstrate it and it has tobe demonstrated, it can't be
exposition, you can't be like,"We're so generous, we're so
generous, we're so generous."You have to do posters around
(27:07):
the fact that you've justdonated some money to an auto
sanctuary? I don't know. Do youknow what I mean? I think that
brand personality work is stillcrucial from an SEO perspective
and a marketing perspective. Andthen I think the most important
thing in this period is findingyour humanity. Like if you are
not human, you're in bigtrouble. If you're a bit of an
automaton.... Your content needsto show your experience your
(27:29):
joy, your sadness, it needs toemote, it needs to tell a story.
That has always been important,since we're sitting around the
fire outside the cave. And it'seven more important in these
years of Terminator to try andfind your humanity because
content has always been acommodity for a while, right?
Churning out 300-word articles.This is not new. We've known
(27:51):
about this for years, dodgy SEOagencies, they've been doing it
for years...It just got easierwith AI. There's been shit
content for ages. It's just goteasier to make. And we need to
stand against commoditizedcontent.
Sarah Spence (28:03):
Absolutely. And I do wonder about the success
anyway of content that is sohomogenised because, like, it'll
be really interesting to see asthis year plays out whether or
not it it, like I think fromwhat we're seeing is that AI
content can sometimes performwell initially. But it's like
(28:25):
whether it stands the test oftime. I was just on a call with
a client yesterday. And we weretalking about their products
being potentially okay to beused with pets, even though
they're technically for humans.And I brought up the fact that
in 2018, I did some keywordresearch and wrote a series of
blogs for a brand called Nexbawho are huge now. They're
(28:49):
sugar-free drinks brand, alwaysloves their stuff. And they were
at the time the team who werethere, they said "No, look, I
propose we create an articlearound kefir or kefir. I can't
remember what it's like. Kefirfor dogs. And there was about
220 searches a month orsomething, but low carb, low
competition. It's like, I thinkwe should do this. And they're
(29:10):
like, "No, no, our product isn'tfor pets. It's not approved for
pet consumption." I said, "Look,I can write this thing. We can
kind of talk about it. Dogs canhave waterbased kefir, that's
what you sell, etc." And theywere like, "No, no, no, no." And
then eventually, they said,"Yes. Okay." That piece of
content, the search volumearound kefir for dogs now is in
(29:31):
the 1000s every month, and theyare still position four. And
they were position one for manyyears. And now there's a whole
heap of other brands that havebought out actual kefir for
dogs. I looked at it justyesterday, they're still
position four. And I'm like, Idon't know that a piece of AI
content would stand, what'sthat? Five years ago, would
(29:51):
still be on the first page infive years time. So it'll be
interesting.
Kate Toon (29:55):
It'll be but it still took a human to see the
potential to have an argumentwith the brand to work out how
you can position that to make itwork and not get them in trouble
legally and whatever. It stilltook a human to kind of define
that. Now, design is that, AIwon't replace content writers
(30:15):
but content writers who use AIwill replace content writers.
And I think it is about theprompts and what you feed into
the tool, but you still have tofeed something into the tool.
And then when it comes out, youstill have to have the nulls to
understand that I can't saythat. We legally can't say that
in Australia. That's against APAguidelines, that's against the
financial guidelines, you stillneed someone at the other end.
(30:37):
Not fact checking, anyone cancheck a fact. But saying, is
this the right time? Let's readthe room. Is it the right time
to be putting out a piece ofcontent about this right now?
What just happened in the newsyesterday? There's so many
factors and seeing those trends.I mean, if you typed Harry and
Megan into the search engineseven years ago, it would have
(30:57):
bought back nothing. The worldchanges, we evolve. Generative
AI is a huge, huge change. But Idon't think we should be
terrified. I'm tired by it. Imust admit I feel tired by it
but I don't feel terrified.
Sarah Spence (31:15):
I do too. I feel like it's one more thing to kind
of have to keep your head aroundand keep on top of, but I really
love what you said at thebeginning around, pick your
experts and then ignore the restof the noise because I think
I've definitely got into a bitof a spiral of comparisonitis
and...
Kate Toon (31:32):
Yes. I have too. It's LinkedIn, it's blooming
LinkedIn. It's the devil's work.I try and stay off that
platform. What's it called? Ipost and I'm pissed off, because
I just don't want to consumeother people's content on there.
Because everyone's an expert.Literally, no people who a month
ago knew nothing about chatGPTand now are experts. And I mean,
(31:53):
there's nothing wrong with that,you can do that. You can go hard
on a topic for a month. I'veseen it all before, I think. I'm
a little bit jaded, there'll bea new thing coming along fairly
soon. I don't want to be thatperson who said, "Oh, the
internet's never gonna takeoff?" Of course, it will take
off and it'll be amazing. Andwe'll all enjoy it as long as
(32:13):
we're not frightened of it.
Sarah Spence (32:14):
Yes, indeed, indeed. And I think as well,
something I said on a commentyesterday on LinkedIn. I used a
word or a phrase that I've seenso much, and I feel like it's
totally out there everywhere.And I had two people comment on
and say, "Oh, I've never heardthat before."
Kate Toon (32:33):
This is it. [inaudible]
Sarah Spence (32:35):
It's just our own little echoed.
Kate Toon (32:37):
We're in a bubble. I was on a call. I've used this
example. I was on a call. And Iwas talking to someone about how
they could drop all these oddlyshaped logos into one canvas on
Canva and export them andthere'll be the same size. And
he was like, "What's Canva?"
Sarah Spence (32:49):
Wow.
Kate Toon (32:50):
Yeah, do you know waht I mean? We think these
things are common knowledge.People don't know about it, even
if they know about it, theydon't understand it, even if
they understand it, they don'twant to use it. And that's true
of so many parts of marketing. Anumber of people who've gone
through my course they knoweverything about SEO, they're
perfectly capable of doing itthemselves, but they don't want
to. And therefore there willalways be a role for us to help
(33:14):
the people who don't want to.
Sarah Spence (33:15):
Let's pause for a moment and look at all the SEO
advice, there will always bework for the doers, as no brand
can be the expert in all thethings. And that takes me back
to those boring fundamentals.Brands must figure out the space
they want to own and then putthe blinkers on and not look
elsewhere. Because all that doesis create stress and tension in
(33:37):
life. And we have enough stressand tension just running
businesses whilst looking aftera family, right? Yeah. So let's
talk a bit more about Kate's newbook, Six Figures in School
Hours. Within that book, shemanages to give an
extraordinarily honest insightinto what it's like trying to be
a good parent whilst running abusiness. So let's finish in a
(34:00):
similar place to where we beganjuggling all the balls. But this
time, I wanted to know how Katehas gone with the juggle as her
own son has grown.
Kate Toon (34:10):
Yes, I mean, I think the first year is just chit, all
the way up until the daycarehelps a lot. And that freed up
my world a bit, but not muchreally. Do you know what mean?
If we're honest, they go andyou're like, just want to lie on
the floor and weep for half theday and then you realise they're
coming back and you try and dosomething. My business didn't
really take off until my sonwent to school. That was when I
started doing all the kinds ofbig sexy things that you see now
(34:33):
about 2015. So my son would havebeen five, six. So that was a
big pivotal. I used the wordpivot, pivotal year for me. And
then, I think the great years,the easy years with your kids
are 7, 8, 9 and 10. Reallygreat. They can feed themselves.
They can do everything. They'rereally pleasant and beautiful.
And then you get to 11 andliterally it was like if you
(34:54):
haven't seen it, there's aamazing Harry Enfield sketch
where Kevin the teenager turnsinto a teenager and it happens
overnight. You got to watch it,I'll send it to you after this.
I saw a massive shift in my son.And a shift in me and my
business, I'm so much moremature, you'd be amazed Sarah. I
don't react, I don't gettriggered, I don't care. I don't
(35:16):
compare myself as much to a bit.So now I've got all the time in
the world to do whatever I want.And I don't want to do any of it
really, I just want to go andlive in a yatcht. So it's very
annoying that in the busiesttime in your family life is
often the busiest biggest growthtime in your business. And then
just as your kids start to geteasier, you're like, "I don't
(35:38):
know, if I can really bebothered anymore." I don't know
if there's something about thatperiod of driving to have a
family, you're also trying tobuild a home and pay off
mortgages and accumulatefurniture, you're working on
your life, it's mental, it'sfull on. And then you kind of
come out the other side of itand it's bizarre. I've got all
the time in the world. I'mbobbing off to Melbourne and
(35:58):
Perth and Adelaide and taking aholiday with our best mate, all
the time in the world now. Andgosh, I wish I could just watch
Finding Nemo again with my sixyear old. It's a shame, you
know.
Sarah Spence (36:11):
It is. But I mean, I think gosh, here we go coming
full circle in this podcast. Butit comes back to the worlds will
wait. Well, sometimes,unfortunately, your financial
situation may not wait. But youdo need to make sacrifices
potentially, but ultimately,yeah, the world will wait. And
(36:33):
me now eight years in, havinggone from freelancing, to
growing a bit, to shutting thewhole thing down, to freelancing
again, to then growing to thepoint we're at now, 20 people
and all the rest. It'sabsolutely, the world did wait,
my kids didn't. And I took thattime with them. And I still get
(36:54):
to have a reasonable balance.But I think it's something about
really pressing, pressing hardon all of those big life things
all at the same time thatthen...
Kate Toon (37:06):
It's a lot. Yeah, all of the buttons. Well, there's a
great book you can read thatwill help with that. ButI do
think that family is for a shortperiod. I mean, if you do it
right, your kids will alwayscome back. But if it goes so
quickly, you're gonna regret it.And you can't be like that. You
need your own sense of selfworth and your own direction,
(37:26):
you need money for God's sake.We're not saying that you need
to pick or choose. But family isfor a short time, it sounds smug
and flippant. There will alwaysbe more money, you will always
find something to do. But thatperiod of having your family at
home and pack lunches, and allof that, trying to do a Zoom, my
kid's gaming in the other room,you'll get to that bits,
(37:48):
brilliant. It goes, it's goingto end. I've got four years left
before my son is probably off touniversity, and then I'll still
have him hopefully, he'll comeback forever or probably be
living in my garage when he's47. But now I'm very conscious
of the fact that I'm notsacrificing my family time for
my business. I am lucky that Ihave the financial wherewithal
(38:08):
to make that decision because somany don't
Sarah Spence (38:12):
Yes, so many don't. Absolutely. And I think
anyone who's in that kind ofearlier phase, who's trying to
make decisions around it, we'redefinitely not saying don't do
it. Like, do it. Do both ofthings. Have it all, but just if
you've got to make the choicebetween taking on that new
(38:32):
contract next week, or perhapsdelaying it by a few weeks,
that's where the world willwait. It's worth going to the
assemblies, and going...
Kate Toon (38:42):
It's not worth doing canteen, though.
Sarah Spence (38:44):
No, don't do canteen.
Kate Toon (38:45):
Yeah. But I think you're so right. And yeah, the
world will wait. I do think thatmantra works pretty well. You
can have it all, but just not atthe same time.
Sarah Spence (38:59):
There we are full circle, we're back at that
mantra. The World Will Wait.It's not lost on me that the
women working in marketingtoday, we're likely the first
generation trying to figure thisout. Our mothers may have been
the first generation to be toldthat they can have both, and
they worked their butts off toget to a point of being allowed
(39:21):
the choice between both work andfamily. But now we're working on
how to manage that choice fromthe get go. Kate has done
exceedingly well in herbusiness, juggling all the
things and being quite open andhonest when she's occasionally
dropped some of those balls, andI think that's one of her
superpowers. Being honest andopen about the struggle is a
(39:44):
refreshing way to connect andcommunicate with both colleagues
and clients. And I think it'ssomething that we can all learn
to do a little bit more. Thanksfor joining me on this journey.
If you want to stay rebelliousin how you practice marketing,
how you show up in yourworkplace and how you live your
(40:04):
life, please subscribe to theContent Rebels wherever you
listen to your podcasts. Thispodcast was recorded on Awabakal
and Darkinjung country. Producedby Pod and Pen Productions.
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