September 20, 2023 • 37 mins
Just when was that moment that marketing shifted from “Mad Men extravagance” to the complex and targeted strategies we see today? Join Sarah Spence for this special episode of the Content Rebels where she asks the experts in her own team about the evolution of marketing.
In this episode you’ll learn:
- How the fall of traditional media has impacted marketing.
- The best way to tackle SEO.
- Why a good strategy is actually worth it.
- How to create a well oiled content marketing machine that creates great work, everytime.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Spence (00:02):
Today is a very special episode of the Content
Rebels. I've been talking to somany top marketing experts, but
I haven't yet spoken to thosecloser to home. The people in my
team. Settle in and let's take alook at the evolution of content
marketing with my beloved team.
(00:22):
Hi, I'm Sarah Spence, I grew aContent Agency from just me to
20 people inside two years. Soyou'd think I had all my shit
together. And even though I tryto come at everything with a
rebellious curiosity, I've beenso focused on growing this thing
that I'm a bit behind in thetrends. Join me on this journey
(00:43):
to find out what's actuallyhappening in the world of
marketing. Welcome to theContent Rebels.
I'm really looking forward tothis. Today you and I are going
to take a trip down marketingmemory lane to learn how things
have changed, what stayed thesame, and where the experts who
have their fingers on the pulse,that's the awesome people in my
(01:04):
team see content marketingheading into the future. Now, if
you're under 30, you could beforgiven for feeling like the
internet and digital marketinghas been around forever. But
really, it wasn't all that longago that marketing didn't mean
socials and video, Tik-Toks andthe Gram. It sounded more
like....
Leigh Robshaw (01:24):
People sit down with a cup of tea and a magazine
and have a long form read.
Sarah Spence (01:29):
That's Leigh Robshaw. She's a Content Manager
here at Content Copywriting. Andwhen Leigh first started her
career, it was all about print.
Leigh Robshaw (01:38):
My first job out of uni was working for a health
and lifestyle newspaper inSydney. So I decided I wanted to
go into journalism. But I didn'twant to do the rape and pillage
journalism. I wanted to do moreprofiles and lifestyle and more
magazine journalism really. Andthat's sort of the area I went
(02:00):
into. But thinking back, it wasvery advertorial based. So most
important I was writing eventhough I thought I was doing
journalism was really marketinganyway. So that was monthly full
colour newspaper that I workedfor. And the people that ran the
newspaper also ran an eventpromotion company and would run
(02:22):
ads in the newspaper to promotethe events. And so I got
involved in event promotion, aswell. And then that led to
working for travel magazines andthat led to working for NRMA
openroad magazine. And then in2004, I moved up to the Sunshine
Coast, and then I started doingcopywriting. And ever since
(02:47):
2004, really, I've had a foot inboth camps of journalism and
publishing and copywriting, andmarketing.
Sarah Spence (02:54):
So Leigh is one of those experts who like me,
started in a time when newspaperjournalism was big business. And
if you were employed at amagazine, well, you had one of
the coolest jobs out there.Remember those days, the big
glossy fashion and travelmagazines, they weren't just
cool. For many businesses,newspapers and magazines were
(03:16):
the only way to get their nameout there.
Leigh Robshaw (03:18):
It's amazing to see how in the 90s you would
walk into newsagent and just seeracks and racks and racks of
magazines all my friends inSydney Western magazines like
Marie Claire and actually whichis still going but you know
Madison and Dolly magazine andall of those amazing magazines
(03:39):
and I loved magazine so much.Cosmopolitan which is gone and
it was such a thriving industryand I used to work for a big
fleet of full colour travelmagazines. One is called Pacific
Island Paradises is the one spotAsian Paradises. And that was
one of my first jobs and weproduced an annual really thick,
(04:04):
full colour glossy magazine thatcontained advertorials on pretty
much every single place to stayacross the Pacific from five
star down to like two stars. Andsame with Asian Paradises. The
owner of that business wouldtravel all year round, going to
(04:24):
visit all of these little somebig, five star resorts down to
the little thatched roof hutsthat wanted to pay a little bit
for a quarter page advertorialin the magazine and the entire
thing was paid for, the entiremagazine was advertorial. The
printing and distribution costsfor those magazines were huge,
but there was not really anyalternative for those little...
(04:48):
some of those little out of theway hotels.
Sarah Spence (04:52):
Nice. Remember those glossy mags with those
awesome shots of beaches that goon for miles. But then of
course, things changed. Here'sLeigh again.
Leigh Robshaw (05:03):
Just the advent of a little thing called the
internet, which pretty muchdecimated magazine publishing,
which most people I know havemoved on to other careers or
gone into content or marketingor something with transferable
skills, I guess.
Sarah Spence (05:21):
So most people in print, well, they lost their
jobs and had to move into thedigital space. But it's not all
bad. I do feel really nostalgicfor that era of print. But as
Leigh explains, there are lotsof positives with this new era
of the internet, especiallyefficiency.
Leigh Robshaw (05:40):
You can target your market a lot better, you
can measure your results a lotbetter, much better ROI which
print advertising could neverreally, it was very difficult to
tell us what was working. Theinternet came along and
decimated classified ads whichwere described as 'rivers of
(06:04):
gold' by Rupert Murdoch. Withoutthose rivers of gold, print
media has really changed andstruggled to stay relevant.
Sarah Spence (06:14):
And really, since the early 2000s, even the major
newspapers were starting todecline in readership. And as we
know, less readers means lessadvertising dollars. And so the
way of the copywriter began tochange from magazine articles
and advertorials, and long formdirect mail, they all became
less important as the worldstarted to look more and more to
(06:37):
their computers, their laptops,and their phones for
information. And that meantsomething else became the top
priority; being found on theinternet. Time to introduce
Soph.
Sophie (06:50):
Hi, I'm Sophie and I'm the Creative Director at Content
Copywriting.
Sarah Spence (06:54):
Sophie knows a lot about a little thing called
Search Engine Optimization.
Sophie (06:59):
Google and other search engines are getting smarter. And
their primary objective is toconnect their users to the right
content. So I mean, that worksgreat for us, because we always
ensure we write for humansfirst. And we do always make
sure we have that connection.But if you are trying to flood
(07:21):
an article where keywords maybedon't align with the content
that you're just trying to getusers onto the page, Google are
going to pick that up andthey're going to penalise you.
So it's really important to keepan eye out for what Google are
looking for. Obviously, a hugefocus on quality content. But
also making sure your searcherintent is aligning with the
(07:44):
content that you're writing.
Sarah Spence (07:45):
But just like Leigh, Soph didn't start in the
world of SEO, because well, SEOas we know it today actually
hasn't been around for all thatlong. For Soph, it was all about
effective communication.
Sophie (07:59):
So when I left school, I moved to Italy, and I studied
there for a year. And I studiedlanguages, culture and media.
And that was really where itopened up my eyes to
international media, and howdifferent messages are perceived
by different audiences and howjust changing the messaging or
(08:19):
interpreting the messaging canbe so different in different
cultures and differentcountries. So I think that's
really where it sort of sparkedmy, I guess, liking to look into
media and communications,because I really loved that idea
of communicating things topeople in an accessible way. So
(08:40):
you don't always have to speakthe best English or you don't
always have to understand thelanguage, but there's many
different ways you cancommunicate your message. So I
was really intrigued by that. Sothat's kind of where it all
started.
When I came back, I started mycareer in corporate travel. So I
moved into there. I was workingfor a variety of companies,
(09:04):
including Virgin Australia,which was Virgin Blue Holidays
back then. And then I moved intocorporate travel, primarily
looking after account managementfor some high profile clients,
which I loved. I loved thebigger clients, the bigger
corporates where it was justalways different and so exciting
and always talking to differentpeople in the company. So I had
(09:26):
exposure to a lot of differentareas, which was great. 15 years
there. So I got a lot ofexposure across the corporate
industry. So I worked in accountmanagement, consulting, sales,
marketing, executive management,recruitment, training, business
development, I went on maternityleave for four times. That, in a
(09:51):
way was a bit of a blessingbecause it gave me a chance to
mix things up every time. Soevery time I came back, I was
like, "Yeah, I'm coming back,but I want to do something a bit
different so let's mix it up."
Sarah Spence (10:01):
Good skills for a content marketing creative
director, right? Well, I thinkso. Soph has unique insight into
copywriting and the changeshappening right before our eyes
in the copywriting world.
Sophie (10:13):
Copywriting has had to keep up with the evolving
digital landscape. There aredefinitely the fundamentals of
of great writing that obviouslyhaven't changed. But when we
look to move it into a digitalformat, gone are the days where
someone would buy the magazineand just read it from front to
back, because they've bought thewhole magazine. These days, the
(10:36):
audience attention is less, ifwe haven't captured them in that
intro, then we're likely to losethem. So we don't have that
loyalty anymore. We don't havethat person who's just going to
read the whole article, becausethey've paid for the paper or
the magazine, we do need toreally make sure that a) that
(10:57):
the copywriting is reallyengaging and captivating their
attention, and also that it doeshave the right amount of SEO in
it as well. So Search EngineOptimization is a really
important part of copywritingnow, in the digital landscape,
because we can have the bestarticle we've ever written. But
(11:19):
if it's not optimised for SEO,then it's not likely going to
get in front of anyone, unlessit's manually shared. So if we
want people to see it, we needto make sure it's optimised But
also, the copywriters do need tobe very creative in their
approach, and really think aboutthe structure of their piece and
(11:41):
make sure that it is doing thejob especially in copywriting,
if we're selling a product orselling a service, it is weaving
that in naturally, so that thereader doesn't feel like they're
reading an advertisement. Butthey want to feel like they're
on board, they're engaged, theyfeel a connection to this brand.
All of that has to come into itwithout being over the top or
(12:04):
without being too salesy. But italso does need to have certain
elements to keep them engagedand have, obviously an element
of SEO to it as well.
Sarah Spence (12:15):
So now copywriters need to think about strategy,
SEO and engagement. They need totalk directly to the reader and
entice them into their world.Here's Soph again.
Sophie (12:26):
Copywriting also needs to consider the strategy of the
piece of the writing, so if it'sstandalone piece, then that's
one thing, but quite often it isconnected to a much larger
strategy. So there'll be severalpieces that need to connect
together. So the copywriter doesneed to then make sure that they
(12:47):
are naturally weaving in theseother elements and these other
editorial pieces, so that thereader does then naturally wants
to go on to the next piece. Andthen it forms this sort of
pillar and cluster model whereall the pieces are connected
together. And then more eyes aregetting on the pieces and we're
(13:08):
getting more views, more users.And then Google sees that,
search engines see that andthink, "Right, well, this is
obviously a popular article orthese popular set of articles,
so let's rank that higher."Because they're obviously
working together, a lot ofpeople are reading them and
spending time on the pagereading them as well. That's
(13:29):
another thing if the copywriterdoesn't captivate their
attention immediately, and theyclick away, that then affects
the bounce rate, which thenaffects their ranking. So if
everyone's jumping on andjumping straight off, then
Google's gonna think, "Well,this article is obviously not
that great. Maybe we need todrop it down in the rankings."
(13:50):
So there is a fair bit ofpressure on copywriters these
days, and quite a few elementsto think about. But definitely
having a strategy or workingwith a team that is able to
guide the strategy or SEO isreally crucial. So I guess for
the average copywriter, theydon't need to be SEO experts.
(14:12):
It's not a matter of being awriter and having to understand
everything. But what they doneed to know are the basic
fundamentals of SEO and strategyso that they can understand
whether or not they haveincorporated it properly and
they're making sure the piece isworking across the strategy. And
they can also make sure that ifthey're working with an SEO team
(14:35):
who is asking them to flood thepiece with keywords, then they
have enough understanding tosay, "Look, this is where the
keywords need to go and I putthem in those places." So they
can sort of be that custodian ofthe quality and make sure that
the keywords are there. They'rein the right places, but they're
not flooded and ruining thepiece basically.
(14:57):
So it's really important forcopywriters to make sure that
they're engaging their audiencebecause if someone jumps onto an
article, starts reading it,realises it's not for them or
it's not captivating enough andjumps straight off, then it's
going to affect the engagementrate. So it's likely... and we
know that with the engagementrate, which used to be called
the bounce rate in the oldGoogle Analytics. So if the
(15:21):
engagement rate is not strong,so if people are jumping in and
jumping straight out, thenGoogle is going to see that and
think, "Well, this article isnot actually performing well,
it's obviously not captivatingtheir attention, or it's not
giving them the answers theyneed so let's pull that down in
the rankings." So the engagementrate is really important as
well.
Sarah Spence (15:42):
And while we're hearing from Soph, let's get
some tips on SEO in today'sworld. How do we make keywords
work? Like really work? Here'san example.
Sophie (15:51):
If I'm writing an article on how to process a tax
return, I'm talking to users whoalready know what a tax return
is, and they just want to knowthe steps to process the tax
return. They don't want to jumpinto the article and then have
me tell them all about what is atax return? And what is tax? Or
what is a refund? They alreadyknow that. They just actually
want to know, what do I do whenI get to the ATO. So it's things
(16:16):
like that, where you need to bereally mindful of that we're not
just saying, "Okay, here's anarticle on tax returns, let's
flood it with 50 keywords on taxreturns." Because it needs to be
quite specific. And the morespecific you can get, the better
engagement you'll have and thebetter strategy you can put
together. You're always thinkingabout strategy. So if you
(16:39):
discover something quite oftenthis happens to us, we just
cover a whole bunch of keywordslike "Wow, so many people are
thinking about this, let's do awhole strategy that captures
that audience in the right way."So not just one article to
capture everyone.
One thing to keep in mind withSEO is it's not just for
editorial content. It is alsoused in video content and in
(17:02):
graphics content. So YouTube isthe second biggest search engine
after Google. So if you've gotvideos that you're producing or
infographics, they also need tobe optimised for SEO. So just
keep that in mind as well. Andif you've got editorial plus
amplification, so you've got anarticle plus a video and an
(17:22):
infographic, that's going togive you three times the SEO
power. Whether they come inthrough whichever avenue,
they're likely going to view allthree. So that's a really good
strategy to keep in mind too.
Sarah Spence (17:34):
Thank, Soph. And yeah, those simple techniques to
really amplify your SEO can go along way. And you know where
we're going with this, right? Ofcourse, it all comes back to
strategy. A bit of forwardplanning can save a lot of
heartache later. And really, aswe step along the evolution of
marketing, once SEO became athing, strategy became more
(17:57):
important and more complex. Buthow do we craft it so it's far
more effective than just anyplan plucked from the air? Let
me introduce you to Claire.Claire is one of the lead
strategists in our team.
Claire (18:11):
I get to look at a very, very broad range of clients
effectively, all of the clientsthat we have I get involved
with, which is really diverseand exciting. So I get that
similar sort of tech startupvibe in that you have your hands
in lots of different clients andacross lots of different teams.
(18:31):
And I guess most of what I do islooking at each of our client's,
KPIs and goals for themselves,and figuring out how we can help
them achieve that.
Sarah Spence (18:44):
So Claire is good at putting all the pieces of the
puzzle together. And I wonderconsidering how complex content
marketing has become, what arethe big changes that have been
happening to marketing as thesecomplexities grow? Here's a bit
of the conversation I had withClaire about this.
Claire (19:01):
I've definitely noticed that there has been an increased
interest in personalisedcontent. When I originally got
into the industry, I think thatthe tools that we use, or at
least the tools that I hadaccess to were a lot more
generic and there wasn't a lotof deep diving into segmentation
(19:24):
and what different people neededto hear, as well as where they
were getting it from and theirpath to purchase was all
completely different. But a lotof the time they're just treated
as a whole. And now that we'vegot access to all of these
different tools, we can reallysee what types of customers need
(19:48):
to hear what different types ofmessaging on this channel, at
what cadence and then we canalso analyse whether that's
actually working and whetherspend for say Gen Z is better
spent on something like socialor an email nurture programme,
and switch that off and reallyget the best use of someone's
(20:09):
investment.
Sarah Spence (20:10):
It's interesting as well, though, because there's
been such an evolution of bigdata over the last a couple of
years particularly, and big datacan give us a lot of insight.
And obviously, we use that alot, because, technically
keyword research and otherthings we access are big data.
Lots of data, aggregated toprovide information about trends
and other things. But it'salmost like it's swinging back
(20:32):
around as well into being likegetting down to the micro data
level and being able tounderstand nuance, and adjust
the nuance in a way that we werenever able to 5-10 years ago.
Claire (20:45):
Absolutely. But I also think that brands are realising
that marketplaces are gettingreally saturated, so they can't
be everything to everyone. Sothey need that deep, deep data
to understand the profiles ofthe people that are actually
going to stick with them andmake purchases again and again,
(21:07):
and be loyal customers, and thengo on to be people who refer
people to their business aswell. So without knowing, and
being able to cut the data in away that shows you who your best
customers are, you're reallyjust stuck speaking to everyone.
I think customers expect brandsto be delivering them content
that is for people just likethem. They want brands to be
(21:30):
speaking to them in the wordsthat they use. And again, yeah,
across the channels that theywant to be on.
Sarah Spence (21:37):
That is a relatively new consumer demand,
don't you think? I don't knowthat existed even a year ago, do
you think?
Claire (21:44):
I think we're getting and we have done for years,
there's always studies on howmany ads we see every day. But
now that we spend so much timein social, we get sponsored ads
and sponsored posts as well.It's just like an overwhelming
amount of information thatyou're served. And it's almost
(22:05):
like you don't want to have todo the hard yards to find the
stuff that's for you. We allknow, even people who aren't in
marketing, we all know a bitabout listening tools and about
profiling people and targetedmessaging. So we expect brands
that whether we assume they havethe big bucks, whether they do
(22:27):
or don't we expect them to getit right.
Sarah Spence (22:29):
Thanks, Claire. And we do so expect those brands
to get it right, don't we? Andwe can get so annoyed when the
messaging just doesn't feelpersonal. As consumers, haven't
we become picky? But that meansthat the brands do need to pay
special attention to those thatthey want to target. Or as
Claire says, they'll be talkingto everybody and nobody at the
same time. I want to dig alittle deeper into what brands
(22:52):
need to think about whencreating a strategy and what
consumers expect. Let's talk toJay.
Jay (22:58):
I'm very much an agency person. I'm really big on the
collaborative work to sort ofbuild a really holistic brand.
And I think that you need abunch of different brains, a
whole lot of different insightsand experiences. And that's what
actually makes really solidbranding, which is obviously the
foundation for equally solidmarketing efforts.
Sarah Spence (23:18):
Jay now works as one of the copy editors in our
team and she's really good atit.
Jay (23:24):
I actually like the little details so much more than the
broader picture. I think youneed both parties in agencies,
right? You need people who havehuge big picture outlooks and
you need people who are rightdown in the dirt making sure
that every single syllable makessense for the vision that you
create for your brand. So forme, everything felt like the
(23:44):
logical next step. Because itwas just that chance to really
have guardianship over the finalvoice of branding and the
brands.
Sarah Spence (23:55):
It's so good to have an editor who loves the
little details. So let's getsome advice from Jay about the
way she perfects the littledetails to create a big overall
impact. Here's some of theconversation we had.
Jay (24:09):
So I suppose my one piece of advice is that it's all well
and good to get people onto yourpage. But what you really need
to do is keep them there. Youcan use all manner of sorts of
techniques and not tricks, butways to get people to land on
your page or to pick up yourproduct or to grab their
attention in some way. And thereare some sort of cheat tricks
(24:31):
you can use to do that. Andthat's where you get shitty.
Sorry, am I allowed to swear?
Sarah Spence (24:35):
Yeah.
Jay (24:35):
Shitty SEO agencies that don't do what we do, for
example, which is more holistic.You need to not only get people
to come to the party, you needthem to have fun while they're
there. We all know a few brandsthat immediately come to mind
where we're like, "I just lovethis." It's like I want to read
their EDMs. I want to see theirnew products. I keep the
(24:58):
packaging of the productsbecause it's funny, or it's
beautiful or whatever. And soyeah, I think my biggest piece
of advice is, get people thereand keep them there by being
authentic, speaking theirlanguage, knowing and really
listening as well to whatthey're saying, if something
doesn't land, you need to cycleback and go, "Okay, why? And how
(25:20):
can we change that?"
Sarah Spence (25:21):
There's always this push and pull between
editorial excellence andlistening to the audience and
developing content that is justamazing, and really engenders
all of that loyalty andengagement and everything. And
then that performance stuff likewhat you're saying the shitty
SEO stuff. There is a need forboth, so how do you see them
both coming together?
Jay (25:43):
I'm definitely a big fan of knowing the rules so that you
can break them, which is why therebels thing comes in, right?
But it's a big thing of like, Ibelieve that your audience
experience should be as seamlessas possible, like 100%. For me,
that is the priority. And thenvery close under that is
(26:04):
obviously performance. Work withthose performance requirements,
things like keywords, thingslike search intent, and all that
sort of thing. But never ever atthe expense of user experience
and people reading because theworst thing is when you're sort
of reading an editor like "Oh,this is really, really well
(26:24):
written clunk." And then youjust come across something
that's just so awkward, and it'sbeen so shoehorned in.
Quite often, there aresituations where grammatically
something is technically correctbut it reads to the general
public as incorrect. It's way,way better even though you as an
editor or writer, you're like,"Well, that's actually...that's
(26:46):
wrong." If it's how youraudience speaks and if it's what
they're anticipating, that'swhat you should include, always.
You need to get off youreditorial high horse. Remember
that in English, there aren'tactually any rules, there are
just conventions. But also youneed that initial...like you can
100% rebrand or like create aterm that is appropriate to you.
(27:07):
But you can only do that whenyou brought your audience again
to the party, like they need tobe there already. And then you
can start using that languagethat is really idiosyncratic and
makes you stand out. But youhave to have a stake, you have
to be actually in the market forpeople to know that and know who
you are.
Sarah Spence (27:23):
There's that knowing the rules to break the
rules thing again, isn't it? Iguess that's also how brands
connect with their potentialcustomers. We link into what
rules are okay to break tocreate our collective sense of
identity. But we're now a longway from where marketing all
began. And to create thatnuanced, specialised, tailored,
(27:44):
personalised content, you needsomeone who can run a tight
operational process to help itall flow. Time to introduce
Casey.
Casey (27:54):
Hi, I'm Casey, I'm the Chief Operating Officer at
Content Copywriting. My role isvery much to run the day to day
and to make the processes hum tomake the people happy and to get
the best out of our team, andobviously deliver for our
clients.
Sarah Spence (28:14):
For so many creatives, getting that process
right to make sure we're allworking at an optimum level with
maximum ease doesn't comenaturally. I mean, we've got
creative brains, not processbrains. So how do we do it?
Casey (28:30):
The first step is obviously knowing your process,
knowing who is needed when andwhat you need out of each of
those steps. For us, it wasabout having a streamlined
process that allowed each of ourpeople and the skill sets that
(28:50):
they had to really shine at eachstep. So we have worked really
hard to create an amazingproject management tool that
steps out our process intoclearly defined steps assigned
to our wonderful team thatreally allows both the client
(29:18):
and our team to see wherecontent is up to at any stage of
the process. Building thatplatform was super fun. It
allowed us to nerd out on all ofthe bits and pieces and the what
if and wouldn't it be cool ifscenarios. It really is the
(29:41):
fundamental way that we runcontent creation.
So really knowing how you do it,I think is one of the most
important parts of gettingorganised, getting streamlined
and getting the best out of yourpeople. There's been many
(30:01):
iterations of our steps in thepast three years. And you know
we're always looking for ways totighten it up and make it better
and improve it and get better atwhat we do and faster at what we
do. But definitely, the numberone thing is to know the steps
(30:21):
of your process, know what theyare, and know the people that
you need and the skill sets thatyou need in order to make that
happen. We would probably... theadvice that I would give to
people looking to scale theirsole trader business; maybe
you're a freelancer, maybeyou're a sole copywriter, and
(30:46):
you want to scale, you want toget bigger, you want to earn
more, do more, work with somebig names. What has really
worked for us has been aboutknowing the steps in our
process, but also not using justone singular person in order to
(31:10):
create the content that we have.The content that we deliver goes
through a number of differentbrains. And each of those brains
have got a very specific skillset and specific experience that
they bring to the table thatmakes that end result, actually
that high quality piece ofcontent that we want that our
(31:34):
clients really keep coming backto us for more.
Sarah Spence (31:39):
This is certainly not everyone's expertise. So I'm
glad that I have Casey here tolean on with that. But now,
well, it's 2023. So it wouldn'tbe a conversation about the
evolution of marketing without aconversation about AI. So what
does my team really think of AIand especially chatGPT? Well,
(32:00):
I'm so glad you asked.
Sophie (32:02):
I am really excited about AI. I think it's coming,
whether we want it or not, it'sdefinitely something that's on
the way. And I think we need toembrace it.
Leigh Robshaw (32:14):
I think AI is a double-edged sword.
Casey (32:20):
From an operations perspective, you would be silly
not to use it.
Claire (32:26):
I think probably similar to everyone else with a writing
background, you first get a bitscared about what it could
potentially do, and taking overour jobs. And then once you play
in it a little bit, you realisethat the quality of its output
(32:48):
is completely determined, atleast at the moment on the
quality of information thatyou're feeding it.
Jay (32:57):
I have a lot of designer friends who obviously deal with
Midjourney and sort of visualAI. I have a lot of writing
friends who are dealing withwritten AI. I think those two
are sort of slightly differentrealms. So with writing, it's a
tool, we're kind of in a new...it's a new industrial
revolution, right? We're notgoing to be hand sewing at homes
(33:18):
anymore, we're going to be infactories, we're gonna be mass
producing things. But we'restill going to need people to
run the machines. And it'sreally just a case of going,
"Look, this is inevitable, learnhow to use it and learn how to
use it well, and also learn howto infuse humanity into the
output."
Sophie (33:36):
When we first started looking at AI, it was definitely
better than the devil you know,find out what's ins and outs.
And in that process, we've beenable to uncover so many ways
that AI is going to justtransform the digital marketing
industry for the better. And Ithink like anything, it's always
(33:57):
gonna need someone to drive it,it's always going to need a
creative, it's never going to beable to replicate the creative
brain. So I think I don'tbelieve there is going to be
such a big impact to thecreative industry. I think
there's still going to be a needfor creatives.
Jay (34:17):
chatGPT is making a few boo boos about people. And that's
not good because why is itcoming up with defamatory
information about people andthey're just the people that
have found out and can't bebothered sueing, so that kind of
worried me.
So I obviously teach at uni andone of the main things that I
(34:41):
have been telling my students isthat you are going to be
competing to sell your outputsto clients who think they can do
it themselves with AI. And thatthe number one thing that you
have that they don't have is aheart, which sounds a bit cheesy
but you have an understanding,you know what people actually
(35:02):
want to read, you know whatmakes people tick. So yeah, I
think it's all about just notbeing scared of it, harnessing
it for your own purposes, usingit to enhance the work that
you're already doing, andremembering always to keep that
heart in what you're doing aswell.
Sophie (35:16):
I mean, if we think about people who have English as
a second language, think aboutall of the accessibility that's
going to help them bring... justwith AI just even in general
day-to-day conversations. And assomeone who comes from an
Italian background, and I've gota lot of people in my family who
(35:38):
English is their secondlanguage, and I can already see
how this can really help themcommunicate.
Leigh Robshaw (35:44):
It doesn't have a soul, it doesn't have a human
soul. And it doesn't relate tothe world the way humans do.
Claire (35:52):
So if your prompts are not accurate, you're not going
to get out something that is inany way relevant to you.
Sophie (36:01):
I mean, we think about Grammarly, that is an AI
platform that is helping us,helping so many people with
grammar and spelling. And it'snot just about spellcheck, it's
about "Hey, what about put acomma here," or, "Hey, you've
used too many exclamationmarks." It's helping us in our
language, and it's helping uslearn what we should do, what we
shouldn't do. So I think AI willbe similar to that. It's really
(36:23):
going to help us in thatprocess. But it's never going to
take away that creative brain.
Casey (36:30):
I'm all for new tools and new ways of working. And I know
that it's only going to help uscontinue to deliver the quality
that we are now known for.
Sarah Spence (36:40):
There you have it. AI and chatGPT are definitely
here to stay and can be ourfriend if we learn to work with
it.
It has been such a thrill tohear from the people who I work
with every day. But perhapsdon't always stop to get those
bigger picture perspectiveswith. There's so much change in
our industry and hand on heart,I have to say I'm so glad to
(37:02):
have a team full of theexpertise and experience that
you've just heard. The future'sgotta be bright with that,
right?
Thanks for joining me on thisjourney. If you want to stay
rebellious in how you practicemarketing, how you show up in
your workplace and how you liveyour life, please subscribe to
the Content Rebels wherever youlisten to your podcasts. This
(37:24):
podcast was recorded on Awabakaland Darkinjung country. Produced
by Pod and Pen Production.
Today is a very special episode of the Content
Rebels. I've been talking to somany top marketing experts, but
I haven't yet spoken to thosecloser to home. The people in my
team. Settle in and let's take alook at the evolution of content
marketing with my beloved team.
(00:22):
Hi, I'm Sarah Spence, I grew aContent Agency from just me to
20 people inside two years. Soyou'd think I had all my shit
together. And even though I tryto come at everything with a
rebellious curiosity, I've beenso focused on growing this thing
that I'm a bit behind in thetrends. Join me on this journey
(00:43):
to find out what's actuallyhappening in the world of
marketing. Welcome to theContent Rebels.
I'm really looking forward tothis. Today you and I are going
to take a trip down marketingmemory lane to learn how things
have changed, what stayed thesame, and where the experts who
have their fingers on the pulse,that's the awesome people in my
(01:04):
team see content marketingheading into the future. Now, if
you're under 30, you could beforgiven for feeling like the
internet and digital marketinghas been around forever. But
really, it wasn't all that longago that marketing didn't mean
socials and video, Tik-Toks andthe Gram. It sounded more
like....
Leigh Robshaw (01:24):
People sit down with a cup of tea and a magazine
and have a long form read.
Sarah Spence (01:29):
That's Leigh Robshaw. She's a Content Manager
here at Content Copywriting. Andwhen Leigh first started her
career, it was all about print.
Leigh Robshaw (01:38):
My first job out of uni was working for a health
and lifestyle newspaper inSydney. So I decided I wanted to
go into journalism. But I didn'twant to do the rape and pillage
journalism. I wanted to do moreprofiles and lifestyle and more
magazine journalism really. Andthat's sort of the area I went
(02:00):
into. But thinking back, it wasvery advertorial based. So most
important I was writing eventhough I thought I was doing
journalism was really marketinganyway. So that was monthly full
colour newspaper that I workedfor. And the people that ran the
newspaper also ran an eventpromotion company and would run
(02:22):
ads in the newspaper to promotethe events. And so I got
involved in event promotion, aswell. And then that led to
working for travel magazines andthat led to working for NRMA
openroad magazine. And then in2004, I moved up to the Sunshine
Coast, and then I started doingcopywriting. And ever since
(02:47):
2004, really, I've had a foot inboth camps of journalism and
publishing and copywriting, andmarketing.
Sarah Spence (02:54):
So Leigh is one of those experts who like me,
started in a time when newspaperjournalism was big business. And
if you were employed at amagazine, well, you had one of
the coolest jobs out there.Remember those days, the big
glossy fashion and travelmagazines, they weren't just
cool. For many businesses,newspapers and magazines were
(03:16):
the only way to get their nameout there.
Leigh Robshaw (03:18):
It's amazing to see how in the 90s you would
walk into newsagent and just seeracks and racks and racks of
magazines all my friends inSydney Western magazines like
Marie Claire and actually whichis still going but you know
Madison and Dolly magazine andall of those amazing magazines
(03:39):
and I loved magazine so much.Cosmopolitan which is gone and
it was such a thriving industryand I used to work for a big
fleet of full colour travelmagazines. One is called Pacific
Island Paradises is the one spotAsian Paradises. And that was
one of my first jobs and weproduced an annual really thick,
(04:04):
full colour glossy magazine thatcontained advertorials on pretty
much every single place to stayacross the Pacific from five
star down to like two stars. Andsame with Asian Paradises. The
owner of that business wouldtravel all year round, going to
(04:24):
visit all of these little somebig, five star resorts down to
the little thatched roof hutsthat wanted to pay a little bit
for a quarter page advertorialin the magazine and the entire
thing was paid for, the entiremagazine was advertorial. The
printing and distribution costsfor those magazines were huge,
but there was not really anyalternative for those little...
(04:48):
some of those little out of theway hotels.
Sarah Spence (04:52):
Nice. Remember those glossy mags with those
awesome shots of beaches that goon for miles. But then of
course, things changed. Here'sLeigh again.
Leigh Robshaw (05:03):
Just the advent of a little thing called the
internet, which pretty muchdecimated magazine publishing,
which most people I know havemoved on to other careers or
gone into content or marketingor something with transferable
skills, I guess.
Sarah Spence (05:21):
So most people in print, well, they lost their
jobs and had to move into thedigital space. But it's not all
bad. I do feel really nostalgicfor that era of print. But as
Leigh explains, there are lotsof positives with this new era
of the internet, especiallyefficiency.
Leigh Robshaw (05:40):
You can target your market a lot better, you
can measure your results a lotbetter, much better ROI which
print advertising could neverreally, it was very difficult to
tell us what was working. Theinternet came along and
decimated classified ads whichwere described as 'rivers of
(06:04):
gold' by Rupert Murdoch. Withoutthose rivers of gold, print
media has really changed andstruggled to stay relevant.
Sarah Spence (06:14):
And really, since the early 2000s, even the major
newspapers were starting todecline in readership. And as we
know, less readers means lessadvertising dollars. And so the
way of the copywriter began tochange from magazine articles
and advertorials, and long formdirect mail, they all became
less important as the worldstarted to look more and more to
(06:37):
their computers, their laptops,and their phones for
information. And that meantsomething else became the top
priority; being found on theinternet. Time to introduce
Soph.
Sophie (06:50):
Hi, I'm Sophie and I'm the Creative Director at Content
Copywriting.
Sarah Spence (06:54):
Sophie knows a lot about a little thing called
Search Engine Optimization.
Sophie (06:59):
Google and other search engines are getting smarter. And
their primary objective is toconnect their users to the right
content. So I mean, that worksgreat for us, because we always
ensure we write for humansfirst. And we do always make
sure we have that connection.But if you are trying to flood
(07:21):
an article where keywords maybedon't align with the content
that you're just trying to getusers onto the page, Google are
going to pick that up andthey're going to penalise you.
So it's really important to keepan eye out for what Google are
looking for. Obviously, a hugefocus on quality content. But
also making sure your searcherintent is aligning with the
(07:44):
content that you're writing.
Sarah Spence (07:45):
But just like Leigh, Soph didn't start in the
world of SEO, because well, SEOas we know it today actually
hasn't been around for all thatlong. For Soph, it was all about
effective communication.
Sophie (07:59):
So when I left school, I moved to Italy, and I studied
there for a year. And I studiedlanguages, culture and media.
And that was really where itopened up my eyes to
international media, and howdifferent messages are perceived
by different audiences and howjust changing the messaging or
(08:19):
interpreting the messaging canbe so different in different
cultures and differentcountries. So I think that's
really where it sort of sparkedmy, I guess, liking to look into
media and communications,because I really loved that idea
of communicating things topeople in an accessible way. So
(08:40):
you don't always have to speakthe best English or you don't
always have to understand thelanguage, but there's many
different ways you cancommunicate your message. So I
was really intrigued by that. Sothat's kind of where it all
started.
When I came back, I started mycareer in corporate travel. So I
moved into there. I was workingfor a variety of companies,
(09:04):
including Virgin Australia,which was Virgin Blue Holidays
back then. And then I moved intocorporate travel, primarily
looking after account managementfor some high profile clients,
which I loved. I loved thebigger clients, the bigger
corporates where it was justalways different and so exciting
and always talking to differentpeople in the company. So I had
(09:26):
exposure to a lot of differentareas, which was great. 15 years
there. So I got a lot ofexposure across the corporate
industry. So I worked in accountmanagement, consulting, sales,
marketing, executive management,recruitment, training, business
development, I went on maternityleave for four times. That, in a
(09:51):
way was a bit of a blessingbecause it gave me a chance to
mix things up every time. Soevery time I came back, I was
like, "Yeah, I'm coming back,but I want to do something a bit
different so let's mix it up."
Sarah Spence (10:01):
Good skills for a content marketing creative
director, right? Well, I thinkso. Soph has unique insight into
copywriting and the changeshappening right before our eyes
in the copywriting world.
Sophie (10:13):
Copywriting has had to keep up with the evolving
digital landscape. There aredefinitely the fundamentals of
of great writing that obviouslyhaven't changed. But when we
look to move it into a digitalformat, gone are the days where
someone would buy the magazineand just read it from front to
back, because they've bought thewhole magazine. These days, the
(10:36):
audience attention is less, ifwe haven't captured them in that
intro, then we're likely to losethem. So we don't have that
loyalty anymore. We don't havethat person who's just going to
read the whole article, becausethey've paid for the paper or
the magazine, we do need toreally make sure that a) that
(10:57):
the copywriting is reallyengaging and captivating their
attention, and also that it doeshave the right amount of SEO in
it as well. So Search EngineOptimization is a really
important part of copywritingnow, in the digital landscape,
because we can have the bestarticle we've ever written. But
(11:19):
if it's not optimised for SEO,then it's not likely going to
get in front of anyone, unlessit's manually shared. So if we
want people to see it, we needto make sure it's optimised But
also, the copywriters do need tobe very creative in their
approach, and really think aboutthe structure of their piece and
(11:41):
make sure that it is doing thejob especially in copywriting,
if we're selling a product orselling a service, it is weaving
that in naturally, so that thereader doesn't feel like they're
reading an advertisement. Butthey want to feel like they're
on board, they're engaged, theyfeel a connection to this brand.
All of that has to come into itwithout being over the top or
(12:04):
without being too salesy. But italso does need to have certain
elements to keep them engagedand have, obviously an element
of SEO to it as well.
Sarah Spence (12:15):
So now copywriters need to think about strategy,
SEO and engagement. They need totalk directly to the reader and
entice them into their world.Here's Soph again.
Sophie (12:26):
Copywriting also needs to consider the strategy of the
piece of the writing, so if it'sstandalone piece, then that's
one thing, but quite often it isconnected to a much larger
strategy. So there'll be severalpieces that need to connect
together. So the copywriter doesneed to then make sure that they
(12:47):
are naturally weaving in theseother elements and these other
editorial pieces, so that thereader does then naturally wants
to go on to the next piece. Andthen it forms this sort of
pillar and cluster model whereall the pieces are connected
together. And then more eyes aregetting on the pieces and we're
(13:08):
getting more views, more users.And then Google sees that,
search engines see that andthink, "Right, well, this is
obviously a popular article orthese popular set of articles,
so let's rank that higher."Because they're obviously
working together, a lot ofpeople are reading them and
spending time on the pagereading them as well. That's
(13:29):
another thing if the copywriterdoesn't captivate their
attention immediately, and theyclick away, that then affects
the bounce rate, which thenaffects their ranking. So if
everyone's jumping on andjumping straight off, then
Google's gonna think, "Well,this article is obviously not
that great. Maybe we need todrop it down in the rankings."
(13:50):
So there is a fair bit ofpressure on copywriters these
days, and quite a few elementsto think about. But definitely
having a strategy or workingwith a team that is able to
guide the strategy or SEO isreally crucial. So I guess for
the average copywriter, theydon't need to be SEO experts.
(14:12):
It's not a matter of being awriter and having to understand
everything. But what they doneed to know are the basic
fundamentals of SEO and strategyso that they can understand
whether or not they haveincorporated it properly and
they're making sure the piece isworking across the strategy. And
they can also make sure that ifthey're working with an SEO team
(14:35):
who is asking them to flood thepiece with keywords, then they
have enough understanding tosay, "Look, this is where the
keywords need to go and I putthem in those places." So they
can sort of be that custodian ofthe quality and make sure that
the keywords are there. They'rein the right places, but they're
not flooded and ruining thepiece basically.
(14:57):
So it's really important forcopywriters to make sure that
they're engaging their audiencebecause if someone jumps onto an
article, starts reading it,realises it's not for them or
it's not captivating enough andjumps straight off, then it's
going to affect the engagementrate. So it's likely... and we
know that with the engagementrate, which used to be called
the bounce rate in the oldGoogle Analytics. So if the
(15:21):
engagement rate is not strong,so if people are jumping in and
jumping straight out, thenGoogle is going to see that and
think, "Well, this article isnot actually performing well,
it's obviously not captivatingtheir attention, or it's not
giving them the answers theyneed so let's pull that down in
the rankings." So the engagementrate is really important as
well.
Sarah Spence (15:42):
And while we're hearing from Soph, let's get
some tips on SEO in today'sworld. How do we make keywords
work? Like really work? Here'san example.
Sophie (15:51):
If I'm writing an article on how to process a tax
return, I'm talking to users whoalready know what a tax return
is, and they just want to knowthe steps to process the tax
return. They don't want to jumpinto the article and then have
me tell them all about what is atax return? And what is tax? Or
what is a refund? They alreadyknow that. They just actually
want to know, what do I do whenI get to the ATO. So it's things
(16:16):
like that, where you need to bereally mindful of that we're not
just saying, "Okay, here's anarticle on tax returns, let's
flood it with 50 keywords on taxreturns." Because it needs to be
quite specific. And the morespecific you can get, the better
engagement you'll have and thebetter strategy you can put
together. You're always thinkingabout strategy. So if you
(16:39):
discover something quite oftenthis happens to us, we just
cover a whole bunch of keywordslike "Wow, so many people are
thinking about this, let's do awhole strategy that captures
that audience in the right way."So not just one article to
capture everyone.
One thing to keep in mind withSEO is it's not just for
editorial content. It is alsoused in video content and in
(17:02):
graphics content. So YouTube isthe second biggest search engine
after Google. So if you've gotvideos that you're producing or
infographics, they also need tobe optimised for SEO. So just
keep that in mind as well. Andif you've got editorial plus
amplification, so you've got anarticle plus a video and an
(17:22):
infographic, that's going togive you three times the SEO
power. Whether they come inthrough whichever avenue,
they're likely going to view allthree. So that's a really good
strategy to keep in mind too.
Sarah Spence (17:34):
Thank, Soph. And yeah, those simple techniques to
really amplify your SEO can go along way. And you know where
we're going with this, right? Ofcourse, it all comes back to
strategy. A bit of forwardplanning can save a lot of
heartache later. And really, aswe step along the evolution of
marketing, once SEO became athing, strategy became more
(17:57):
important and more complex. Buthow do we craft it so it's far
more effective than just anyplan plucked from the air? Let
me introduce you to Claire.Claire is one of the lead
strategists in our team.
Claire (18:11):
I get to look at a very, very broad range of clients
effectively, all of the clientsthat we have I get involved
with, which is really diverseand exciting. So I get that
similar sort of tech startupvibe in that you have your hands
in lots of different clients andacross lots of different teams.
(18:31):
And I guess most of what I do islooking at each of our client's,
KPIs and goals for themselves,and figuring out how we can help
them achieve that.
Sarah Spence (18:44):
So Claire is good at putting all the pieces of the
puzzle together. And I wonderconsidering how complex content
marketing has become, what arethe big changes that have been
happening to marketing as thesecomplexities grow? Here's a bit
of the conversation I had withClaire about this.
Claire (19:01):
I've definitely noticed that there has been an increased
interest in personalisedcontent. When I originally got
into the industry, I think thatthe tools that we use, or at
least the tools that I hadaccess to were a lot more
generic and there wasn't a lotof deep diving into segmentation
(19:24):
and what different people neededto hear, as well as where they
were getting it from and theirpath to purchase was all
completely different. But a lotof the time they're just treated
as a whole. And now that we'vegot access to all of these
different tools, we can reallysee what types of customers need
(19:48):
to hear what different types ofmessaging on this channel, at
what cadence and then we canalso analyse whether that's
actually working and whetherspend for say Gen Z is better
spent on something like socialor an email nurture programme,
and switch that off and reallyget the best use of someone's
(20:09):
investment.
Sarah Spence (20:10):
It's interesting as well, though, because there's
been such an evolution of bigdata over the last a couple of
years particularly, and big datacan give us a lot of insight.
And obviously, we use that alot, because, technically
keyword research and otherthings we access are big data.
Lots of data, aggregated toprovide information about trends
and other things. But it'salmost like it's swinging back
(20:32):
around as well into being likegetting down to the micro data
level and being able tounderstand nuance, and adjust
the nuance in a way that we werenever able to 5-10 years ago.
Claire (20:45):
Absolutely. But I also think that brands are realising
that marketplaces are gettingreally saturated, so they can't
be everything to everyone. Sothey need that deep, deep data
to understand the profiles ofthe people that are actually
going to stick with them andmake purchases again and again,
(21:07):
and be loyal customers, and thengo on to be people who refer
people to their business aswell. So without knowing, and
being able to cut the data in away that shows you who your best
customers are, you're reallyjust stuck speaking to everyone.
I think customers expect brandsto be delivering them content
that is for people just likethem. They want brands to be
(21:30):
speaking to them in the wordsthat they use. And again, yeah,
across the channels that theywant to be on.
Sarah Spence (21:37):
That is a relatively new consumer demand,
don't you think? I don't knowthat existed even a year ago, do
you think?
Claire (21:44):
I think we're getting and we have done for years,
there's always studies on howmany ads we see every day. But
now that we spend so much timein social, we get sponsored ads
and sponsored posts as well.It's just like an overwhelming
amount of information thatyou're served. And it's almost
(22:05):
like you don't want to have todo the hard yards to find the
stuff that's for you. We allknow, even people who aren't in
marketing, we all know a bitabout listening tools and about
profiling people and targetedmessaging. So we expect brands
that whether we assume they havethe big bucks, whether they do
(22:27):
or don't we expect them to getit right.
Sarah Spence (22:29):
Thanks, Claire. And we do so expect those brands
to get it right, don't we? Andwe can get so annoyed when the
messaging just doesn't feelpersonal. As consumers, haven't
we become picky? But that meansthat the brands do need to pay
special attention to those thatthey want to target. Or as
Claire says, they'll be talkingto everybody and nobody at the
same time. I want to dig alittle deeper into what brands
(22:52):
need to think about whencreating a strategy and what
consumers expect. Let's talk toJay.
Jay (22:58):
I'm very much an agency person. I'm really big on the
collaborative work to sort ofbuild a really holistic brand.
And I think that you need abunch of different brains, a
whole lot of different insightsand experiences. And that's what
actually makes really solidbranding, which is obviously the
foundation for equally solidmarketing efforts.
Sarah Spence (23:18):
Jay now works as one of the copy editors in our
team and she's really good atit.
Jay (23:24):
I actually like the little details so much more than the
broader picture. I think youneed both parties in agencies,
right? You need people who havehuge big picture outlooks and
you need people who are rightdown in the dirt making sure
that every single syllable makessense for the vision that you
create for your brand. So forme, everything felt like the
(23:44):
logical next step. Because itwas just that chance to really
have guardianship over the finalvoice of branding and the
brands.
Sarah Spence (23:55):
It's so good to have an editor who loves the
little details. So let's getsome advice from Jay about the
way she perfects the littledetails to create a big overall
impact. Here's some of theconversation we had.
Jay (24:09):
So I suppose my one piece of advice is that it's all well
and good to get people onto yourpage. But what you really need
to do is keep them there. Youcan use all manner of sorts of
techniques and not tricks, butways to get people to land on
your page or to pick up yourproduct or to grab their
attention in some way. And thereare some sort of cheat tricks
(24:31):
you can use to do that. Andthat's where you get shitty.
Sorry, am I allowed to swear?
Sarah Spence (24:35):
Yeah.
Jay (24:35):
Shitty SEO agencies that don't do what we do, for
example, which is more holistic.You need to not only get people
to come to the party, you needthem to have fun while they're
there. We all know a few brandsthat immediately come to mind
where we're like, "I just lovethis." It's like I want to read
their EDMs. I want to see theirnew products. I keep the
(24:58):
packaging of the productsbecause it's funny, or it's
beautiful or whatever. And soyeah, I think my biggest piece
of advice is, get people thereand keep them there by being
authentic, speaking theirlanguage, knowing and really
listening as well to whatthey're saying, if something
doesn't land, you need to cycleback and go, "Okay, why? And how
(25:20):
can we change that?"
Sarah Spence (25:21):
There's always this push and pull between
editorial excellence andlistening to the audience and
developing content that is justamazing, and really engenders
all of that loyalty andengagement and everything. And
then that performance stuff likewhat you're saying the shitty
SEO stuff. There is a need forboth, so how do you see them
both coming together?
Jay (25:43):
I'm definitely a big fan of knowing the rules so that you
can break them, which is why therebels thing comes in, right?
But it's a big thing of like, Ibelieve that your audience
experience should be as seamlessas possible, like 100%. For me,
that is the priority. And thenvery close under that is
(26:04):
obviously performance. Work withthose performance requirements,
things like keywords, thingslike search intent, and all that
sort of thing. But never ever atthe expense of user experience
and people reading because theworst thing is when you're sort
of reading an editor like "Oh,this is really, really well
(26:24):
written clunk." And then youjust come across something
that's just so awkward, and it'sbeen so shoehorned in.
Quite often, there aresituations where grammatically
something is technically correctbut it reads to the general
public as incorrect. It's way,way better even though you as an
editor or writer, you're like,"Well, that's actually...that's
(26:46):
wrong." If it's how youraudience speaks and if it's what
they're anticipating, that'swhat you should include, always.
You need to get off youreditorial high horse. Remember
that in English, there aren'tactually any rules, there are
just conventions. But also youneed that initial...like you can
100% rebrand or like create aterm that is appropriate to you.
(27:07):
But you can only do that whenyou brought your audience again
to the party, like they need tobe there already. And then you
can start using that languagethat is really idiosyncratic and
makes you stand out. But youhave to have a stake, you have
to be actually in the market forpeople to know that and know who
you are.
Sarah Spence (27:23):
There's that knowing the rules to break the
rules thing again, isn't it? Iguess that's also how brands
connect with their potentialcustomers. We link into what
rules are okay to break tocreate our collective sense of
identity. But we're now a longway from where marketing all
began. And to create thatnuanced, specialised, tailored,
(27:44):
personalised content, you needsomeone who can run a tight
operational process to help itall flow. Time to introduce
Casey.
Casey (27:54):
Hi, I'm Casey, I'm the Chief Operating Officer at
Content Copywriting. My role isvery much to run the day to day
and to make the processes hum tomake the people happy and to get
the best out of our team, andobviously deliver for our
clients.
Sarah Spence (28:14):
For so many creatives, getting that process
right to make sure we're allworking at an optimum level with
maximum ease doesn't comenaturally. I mean, we've got
creative brains, not processbrains. So how do we do it?
Casey (28:30):
The first step is obviously knowing your process,
knowing who is needed when andwhat you need out of each of
those steps. For us, it wasabout having a streamlined
process that allowed each of ourpeople and the skill sets that
(28:50):
they had to really shine at eachstep. So we have worked really
hard to create an amazingproject management tool that
steps out our process intoclearly defined steps assigned
to our wonderful team thatreally allows both the client
(29:18):
and our team to see wherecontent is up to at any stage of
the process. Building thatplatform was super fun. It
allowed us to nerd out on all ofthe bits and pieces and the what
if and wouldn't it be cool ifscenarios. It really is the
(29:41):
fundamental way that we runcontent creation.
So really knowing how you do it,I think is one of the most
important parts of gettingorganised, getting streamlined
and getting the best out of yourpeople. There's been many
(30:01):
iterations of our steps in thepast three years. And you know
we're always looking for ways totighten it up and make it better
and improve it and get better atwhat we do and faster at what we
do. But definitely, the numberone thing is to know the steps
(30:21):
of your process, know what theyare, and know the people that
you need and the skill sets thatyou need in order to make that
happen. We would probably... theadvice that I would give to
people looking to scale theirsole trader business; maybe
you're a freelancer, maybeyou're a sole copywriter, and
(30:46):
you want to scale, you want toget bigger, you want to earn
more, do more, work with somebig names. What has really
worked for us has been aboutknowing the steps in our
process, but also not using justone singular person in order to
(31:10):
create the content that we have.The content that we deliver goes
through a number of differentbrains. And each of those brains
have got a very specific skillset and specific experience that
they bring to the table thatmakes that end result, actually
that high quality piece ofcontent that we want that our
(31:34):
clients really keep coming backto us for more.
Sarah Spence (31:39):
This is certainly not everyone's expertise. So I'm
glad that I have Casey here tolean on with that. But now,
well, it's 2023. So it wouldn'tbe a conversation about the
evolution of marketing without aconversation about AI. So what
does my team really think of AIand especially chatGPT? Well,
(32:00):
I'm so glad you asked.
Sophie (32:02):
I am really excited about AI. I think it's coming,
whether we want it or not, it'sdefinitely something that's on
the way. And I think we need toembrace it.
Leigh Robshaw (32:14):
I think AI is a double-edged sword.
Casey (32:20):
From an operations perspective, you would be silly
not to use it.
Claire (32:26):
I think probably similar to everyone else with a writing
background, you first get a bitscared about what it could
potentially do, and taking overour jobs. And then once you play
in it a little bit, you realisethat the quality of its output
(32:48):
is completely determined, atleast at the moment on the
quality of information thatyou're feeding it.
Jay (32:57):
I have a lot of designer friends who obviously deal with
Midjourney and sort of visualAI. I have a lot of writing
friends who are dealing withwritten AI. I think those two
are sort of slightly differentrealms. So with writing, it's a
tool, we're kind of in a new...it's a new industrial
revolution, right? We're notgoing to be hand sewing at homes
(33:18):
anymore, we're going to be infactories, we're gonna be mass
producing things. But we'restill going to need people to
run the machines. And it'sreally just a case of going,
"Look, this is inevitable, learnhow to use it and learn how to
use it well, and also learn howto infuse humanity into the
output."
Sophie (33:36):
When we first started looking at AI, it was definitely
better than the devil you know,find out what's ins and outs.
And in that process, we've beenable to uncover so many ways
that AI is going to justtransform the digital marketing
industry for the better. And Ithink like anything, it's always
(33:57):
gonna need someone to drive it,it's always going to need a
creative, it's never going to beable to replicate the creative
brain. So I think I don'tbelieve there is going to be
such a big impact to thecreative industry. I think
there's still going to be a needfor creatives.
Jay (34:17):
chatGPT is making a few boo boos about people. And that's
not good because why is itcoming up with defamatory
information about people andthey're just the people that
have found out and can't bebothered sueing, so that kind of
worried me.
So I obviously teach at uni andone of the main things that I
(34:41):
have been telling my students isthat you are going to be
competing to sell your outputsto clients who think they can do
it themselves with AI. And thatthe number one thing that you
have that they don't have is aheart, which sounds a bit cheesy
but you have an understanding,you know what people actually
(35:02):
want to read, you know whatmakes people tick. So yeah, I
think it's all about just notbeing scared of it, harnessing
it for your own purposes, usingit to enhance the work that
you're already doing, andremembering always to keep that
heart in what you're doing aswell.
Sophie (35:16):
I mean, if we think about people who have English as
a second language, think aboutall of the accessibility that's
going to help them bring... justwith AI just even in general
day-to-day conversations. And assomeone who comes from an
Italian background, and I've gota lot of people in my family who
(35:38):
English is their secondlanguage, and I can already see
how this can really help themcommunicate.
Leigh Robshaw (35:44):
It doesn't have a soul, it doesn't have a human
soul. And it doesn't relate tothe world the way humans do.
Claire (35:52):
So if your prompts are not accurate, you're not going
to get out something that is inany way relevant to you.
Sophie (36:01):
I mean, we think about Grammarly, that is an AI
platform that is helping us,helping so many people with
grammar and spelling. And it'snot just about spellcheck, it's
about "Hey, what about put acomma here," or, "Hey, you've
used too many exclamationmarks." It's helping us in our
language, and it's helping uslearn what we should do, what we
shouldn't do. So I think AI willbe similar to that. It's really
(36:23):
going to help us in thatprocess. But it's never going to
take away that creative brain.
Casey (36:30):
I'm all for new tools and new ways of working. And I know
that it's only going to help uscontinue to deliver the quality
that we are now known for.
Sarah Spence (36:40):
There you have it. AI and chatGPT are definitely
here to stay and can be ourfriend if we learn to work with
it.
It has been such a thrill tohear from the people who I work
with every day. But perhapsdon't always stop to get those
bigger picture perspectiveswith. There's so much change in
our industry and hand on heart,I have to say I'm so glad to
(37:02):
have a team full of theexpertise and experience that
you've just heard. The future'sgotta be bright with that,
right?
Thanks for joining me on thisjourney. If you want to stay
rebellious in how you practicemarketing, how you show up in
your workplace and how you liveyour life, please subscribe to
the Content Rebels wherever youlisten to your podcasts. This
(37:24):
podcast was recorded on Awabakaland Darkinjung country. Produced
by Pod and Pen Production.
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