August 16, 2023 • 39 mins
Want to know how to last the test of time and still be at the top of your marketing game? We’ve got you. In this episode, Mary-Anne Amies of Wise Up Marketing, who has been leading her agency since 2010 will talk you through the changes, the highs and the lows of this ever evolving industry.
In this episode you’ll learn:
- Why digital marketing is still marketing
- The growth of specialised agencies and female CEOs
- Where all marketing strategies should start
- And why keeping it real is the best way to market yourself
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Spence (00:02):
The world has changed an awful lot in the past
decade. So anyone who's led asuccessful agency through these
changes must be worth theirweight in gold. Now, don't tell
anyone but Mary-Anne Amies isabout to let you in on the
secret she's learned fromrunning an agency since 2010.
And why she's now passionateabout making sure CEOs know
(00:24):
these secrets too.
Hi, I'm Sarah Spence. I grew aContent Agency from just me to
20 people inside two years. Soyou'd think I had all my shit
together. And even though I tryto come at everything with a
rebellious curiosity, I've beenso focused on growing this thing
(00:45):
that I'm a bit behind in thetrends. Join me on this journey
to find out what's actuallyhappening in the world of
marketing. Welcome to theContent Rebels.
There's been a lot of experts onthis podcast talking about how a
single strategy never reallyworks in isolation. The best
results seem to always beachieved by using multiple
(01:06):
marketing tools and blendingthem together to create a
targeted approach. So let's talkto someone who has had their
finger on the pulse of thesemany different tools for a long
time now. Mary-Anne Amies hasspent more than 20 years at the
forefront of the marketingworld.
Mary-Anne Amies (01:23):
I love to joke about being the elder millennial
of digital marketing. I almosthave like the home phone that I
could show you and dial out on.
Sarah Spence (01:32):
It was way back in 2010 when Mary-Anne launched her
own digital agency, Wise UpMarketing. She also coaches CEOs
and directors to take backcontrol of their digital
marketing decisions.
Mary-Anne Amies (01:45):
Thank you so much, Sarah, that is the
loveliest introduction.
Sarah Spence (01:50):
It's hard to know where to start when you talk to
someone who knows so much aboutdigital. So I started at the
beginning and asked Mary-Annewhat it was like to lead an
agency all the way back then.
Mary-Anne Amies (02:04):
Within my industry, there has obviously
been so much change, and that isdigital marketing. I joke that I
started when cat memes wereeverything and writing your life
story in reply on a Facebookcomment was normal. We had
amazingly high engagement, wedidn't pay a cent for anything.
It was all wins, and my gosh,how it's changed over 13 years.
(02:27):
So in the backdrop of anever-evolving industry, my role
and my purpose has reallyevolved as well. Like many
people, I started the agency onmy own, freelancing under that
banner. I built it up on my ownand as I brought on team and
(02:48):
grew team, I guess I was playingthat game of being everything to
everyone. So from clients, tostaff, to anyone who needed me,
I was all things. It's probablyabout three or four years ago
that I could kind of see thatwasn't sustainable for me
anymore. And I guess you startto almost lose your love for it,
(03:09):
because you're so stuck in thetrenches of it. And there's been
a big shift now and how leadingthat agency looks for me now. I
did a lot of work on myself andworking with an amazing coach
that you and I have in common.Now, my role is really about
(03:29):
vision and it's about leadershipand culture and making sure that
I have the right structure andprocesses and objectives in
place for my team so that we candeliver for our clients to the
values of the brand and reallymake sure that everybody in the
(03:50):
team aligns with those brand'svalues and really is
contributing to that broadervision. So it's different and
that means a lot less to-dolists ticking off which I
absolutely adore and massivechallenge for me to walk away
from and a lot more biggerpicture big thinking, sink your
teeth in sort of stuff. So yeah,it's been a really big
(04:12):
evolution.
Sarah Spence (04:14):
Was that the dream when you first started. Did you
want to grow to where you arenow and beyond?
Mary-Anne Amies (04:19):
It's so funny because it feels terrible to say
it in the environment wherepeople slog it out hard to build
a business and maybe it'sbecause it was 13 years ago and
and the kind of culture around;start a side hustle, build a
business, it wasn't around. So Ididn't kind of begin the
business with that pressure thatthere seems to be today.
(04:40):
So the big dream when I startedout was just about helping
people and I know that thatsounds so cliche, but it really
was... I had a corporate role. Iwas on a great trajectory in my
corporate gig. I probably wouldhave been a general manager
within the next six to 12 monthsof going back after maternity
leave had I stayed, but itdidn't fulfill me. And when I
(05:03):
was on maternity leave, helpingpeople, the tiniest businesses
with their marketing brought meso much joy. And I think my big
dream when I started was,firstly, how can I help more
people in this tangible way,where even if they're just
giving me $100, I can make asmall impact, and they are so
(05:24):
much better off for it. And thenthe other part of that dream
became the team. I for so longtalked about when I go back to
work, I'm doing this, but when Igo back to work, I'm doing that
but when I go back to work. Andthen I remember saying to my
husband one day, "I actuallythink the only thing I want is
the team." But the only reason Iwanted to go back to work is for
(05:46):
the people. And if I could havethe people around me, then this
could be something. And so Ithink my big dream has always
been around people. So betweengrowing and nurturing a team and
working with clients that Ireally want to help and want to
see succeed, that's it for me.
Sarah Spence (06:08):
Mary-Anne is onto something there. 13 years ago,
there really wasn't the pressureto make a million bucks with
your side hustle while yousleep. But somewhere along the
way, some clever person inmarketing probably came up with
a campaign and it just took off.And it became kind of the
ultimate dream. Well, that isuntil a global pandemic stopped
(06:30):
everyone's big plans in theirtracks. I'm pretty sure I'm not
the only one who noticed a shiftin business values and values in
general post 2020. And so I'mwondering what Mary-Anne thinks
about the impact COVID has hadon this hustle mindset.
Mary-Anne Amies (06:46):
People seeked and went back to seeking
stability. I think leading intothat COVID time, it was a lot
bigger. And it's almost all thedebunking of the fads as well,
like the four hour work week,the make money while you sleep
with a course, launch a courseand you'll never have to work
again. And then we would buildcourses for people and they'd be
(07:10):
like, "Oh, the student needsthis, the student needs that."
Yeah, like you sold a course youdidn't sell a packet of chips
and they went off to eat it, yousold a relationship, you sold an
ongoing relationship. And Ithink a lot of that stuff, those
dreams that was sold, all kindof got debunked, and people came
back to actually, if I'm goingto do something, I'm going to
(07:32):
put the hard slog in, I need tobe powered and driven by
something, not just dollars inthe bank.
Sarah Spence (07:39):
Absolutely. And yeah, COVID did absolutely
instigate that reassessment forso, so many people. Yeah, it was
an interesting time. When youstarted out, were there many
female peers doing the same kindof thing or you the only woman
around?
Mary-Anne Amies (07:59):
I feel like no, not really, it was quite lonely.
My friends were all incorporate, and definitely none
of my friends were startingbusinesses. All my friends I
went to uni with were climbingthe corporate ladder, I was
juggling babies, and building abusiness at the same time. I
think in that stage, at the verybeginning, I didn't have the
(08:22):
capacity to get out as much. Andwhen I did network with other
women in business, it tended tobe that they were a
product-based business or ayoga, yoga school. They didn't
tend to be in that consultingspace as much. And definitely I
(08:44):
feel like Melbourne, and I thinkit's still true, Melbourne seems
to have a more active integratedbusiness community than Sydney.
Sydney is such a big place. AndI feel like it... I've heard it
for over a decade, it's hard toget people out to events in
Sydney. And I think part of itis because of our geographic
(09:06):
spread. And I definitely went todifferent events during
different networking groups andthings, but I didn't often come
across digital marketing then.Fast forward say, oh, gosh,
maybe 2017 and that seemed to bethe era of; I've managed an
(09:28):
Instagram account really well,now think I could do this for
other people. I'm now a SocialMedia Manager, and that pathway
in, which is really valid aswell, but that kind of blew up
around that 2017, 2018 whereas Ifeel like before that, it was
like big, inaccessible agencies.Not necessarily as many kind of
(09:51):
small businesses offering thatorganic management, paid
management services.
Sarah Spence (09:55):
Yeah, I second that too in my corporate career
before I had my first, so thatwas pre-2014, it was anything
marketing wise that we weredoing. It was all the big
incumbent agencies, it wouldjust never have been on our
radar to even consider arelationship with a specialist.
(10:18):
And I love that that haschanged. And we get the
opportunity to work with biggerclients and even medium-sized
clients who aren't looking tothose big agencies for their
digital marketing, but they arewilling to talk to and engage
with a specialist, I think theyreally see the value in that,
which is nice.
Mary-Anne Amies (10:38):
And yeah, and I kind of think it's the evolution
of digital marketing as well,right? Because I often go on
that, like digital marketing isjust marketing. It's not its own
entity, it's marketing, and thechannels have changed to what
they were before. We hadmarketing before and we used TV
and radio. We have marketing nowand we can use those things. But
(11:00):
we can also use content orsocial media or web or SEO. And
I think probably those biggerbusinesses, and those marketing
individuals within them havelearned more to go, "Oh,
actually, what is the specificthing I need?" Rather than what
is the blanket of... and again,it's kind of that whole snake
(11:21):
oil era. I think we've talkedabout this before, Sarah, when
people were selling websites for50 grand that were the world's
most basic websites, becausenobody knew. And then I feel
like digital marketing has kindof gone through that as well,
the mysticism and the magictricks. And now people are like,
"Oh, actually, I understand it'sa series of tools, which tool do
(11:43):
I want? Who's the best person todeliver that tool with me?"
Sarah Spence (11:47):
Yeah, absolutely. That's so interesting. You're
right, the whole kind ofbusiness, growth trajectory, and
the evolution of digitalmarketing in the same level.
Let's talk about marketingitself. You're an expert in
many, many different dimensionsof marketing, including email,
nurture, direct, paid, websitedevelopment, all of those
(12:09):
things. What do you see as themost important aspect of
marketing these days?
Mary-Anne Amies (12:15):
It's super boring, but strategy and
foundations. [laughs]
Sarah Spence (12:19):
We love the boring stuff.
Mary-Anne Amies (12:21):
I know. And as we touched on, you've got your
tools and tactics, and they'regreat, and that you need them at
a certain spot, but without the"Who are you talking to? What is
the objective? What is thepurpose? Why are you even
marketing?" And I think, I sayit time and time again, and I
(12:41):
know you're exactly the same,"Who is the target market?"
Start there. Before you come tome saying, "We want to grow our
Tik-Tok, we want to grow ourInstagram." Who are you talking
to? Because if I don't know whoyou're trying to talk to, then I
don't know if that's the rightthing for you, or just some
friend at a barbecue has toldyou that they did it and they've
made $10,000. Now you want tojump on it too. So starting
(13:05):
always with the who, the why,getting your objectives in
place, and having that 360degree focus. It's a spider web,
digital marketing or the digitalStratusphere. And all those
different things you spoke oflike email, like direct pay,
nurture, web, they have arelationship with each other.
(13:28):
It's almost like no one tool inisolation is going to get you
there. It's the wholearchitecture of how you're going
to use them together. To buildthat architecture, you need to
know your strategy.
Sarah Spence (13:39):
Yeah, it's so true. But it's interesting,
though, whether you're a smallbusiness, medium-sized business
or a larger brand; in a largebrand, it's difficult to say,
"Okay, we need just one unifiedstrategy." But then likewise,
for a small business or mediumbusiness, it's often hard to
(14:00):
say, "Okay, we can put forwardthe investment for a single,
large overall strategy." How doyou deal with that kind of thing
with your clients? Because youdo tend to work with smaller
businesses. When you do thestrategy and you work out who
they're talking to, whatchannels matter to that
audience, do you then just putall your eggs into that one
channel basket? Or do you stilldo that broader strategy for
(14:21):
them?
Mary-Anne Amies (14:22):
Yeah, look, I think when a business comes to
us, and either they're new, andthey're looking to launch, or
they're what I would call stuck,so they're not getting the
results that they want, orthey're at that crossroads where
they're like, it's not working,and I don't know why, I do try
to encourage them down to thestrategy road, let's do a
(14:43):
strategy. And we do that, weactually do two hours of
workshopping with them directly.And through that we talk about
the ideal client, we talk aboutobjectives. We talk about brand
purpose, brand messaging. Andthen from there we go away and
build out the tactics and thetools. And to your point, no,
it's never just one thing.There's never a client where we
(15:04):
say just do Facebook or just doInstagram, it's always a
multi-tiered strategy becauseconsumers are in different
places.
We also generally work to twoideal client profiles for most
businesses. We might be going,"Okay, well, ideal client
profile one, we're going to findthem on LinkedIn, but ideal
client profile two, maybe we canget them on Instagram." So this
(15:28):
is what we'll do for theLinkedIn, this is what we'll do
for Instagram. You then need tobuild a website that can talk to
multiple target markets, the SEOstrategy, you might need to
balance it more towards one orthe other, depending on who the
big opportunity is. Butdefinitely there's always
(15:48):
multitier. And with smallbusinesses, especially, I'm
always very big on, you can't doeverything at once, it's all a
marathon, you gotta be in it forthe long run. So I never
encourage, even if there's threechannels that seem great for
them, I always sort of go,"Let's get these two, right
first, then we'll move on to thethird." Because I think that
(16:09):
overwhelm comes from when we tryto do everything, and we try to
do everything at once.Especially if they're going to
DIY some, they probably can'tafford to outsource at all, and
they're going to be really goodfor a couple of months, and then
they're going to go dead in thewater. So I'm very, very big on
that slow and steady kind ofgrowth.
Sarah Spence (16:30):
It's a good time to press pause here, because
this is something that trips upso many people, slow and steady
does always win. But as a smallbusiness myself, it's so hard to
know where to focus and where toput that time and energy so that
we land in that sweet spot wheresustainable growth can really be
(16:50):
achieved. It is such a balancingact. And I think this comes back
to being purposeful andintentional with how you
approach your marketing, butalso being realistic about what
is achievable for any givenbrand or business at that
moment. Start where you're at,and build on it. This throwing
(17:14):
everything at the marketing walland hoping something sticks. You
might say it's a tactic, butprobably not a very good one.
Even though sometimes I mustadmit, that's kind of what I do
myself. But I was so interestedto hear from someone like
Mary-Anne who has seen so muchchange, about the marketing
(17:34):
moves that brands still insiston taking even though they
really aren't working anymore.
Mary-Anne Amies (17:41):
Number one, digital marketing sin is jumping
straight into the doing so nothaving a strategy. And you
normally see that, in that kindof burst of activity and then
fading away. Those businesseswhere you kind of like they're
everywhere, and then they'renowhere is because they kind of
(18:02):
didn't know what they were doingor why. And they went at it. And
I guess wrapped up in thatjumping straight to the doing
and expecting immediate results.There's pretty much no immediate
strategy when it comes tomarketing. Let's even throw away
the word digital marketing. Whenit comes to marketing you need
(18:25):
to build a relationship. It's sofunny because the traditional
marketing frameworks they stillhold; you need to build
awareness, you need to turnawareness to consideration,
consideration to trial, trial topurchase, purchase to loyalty.
We are still the people we'vealways been and you need to go
(18:46):
through that process. And Ithink those that jump straight
into the doing; I want an adscampaign, I want it to go up, it
needs to go up by this week. Andthen three weeks later they're
the one knocking on your doorsaying, "I've had no uplift,
I've had no result, I've had nosale....I'm sort of like, "Well,
first of all, we need threemonths, when it comes to even a
(19:07):
good organic and paid... I'mcertain it's the same for you in
content. We need time. We needtime for those strategies we've
put in place to play out. Weneed time to learn, to test, to
measure, to adapt and all thosethings. So that wanting
immediate effect and wantingimmediate results I think that
(19:27):
that's one of those things thatyou just can't, you shouldn't,
you can't, you have to berealistic.
And then the second shouldn't isshiny objects and jumping on
trends. And then that comes fromno strategy or it comes from
that feeling of desperation. Soeither monitoring competitors
(19:48):
and perceiving, Instagram versusreality, perceiving that they're
doing so much better than you sotrying to jump on all the shiny
objects and trends that they'redoing. Or just listening to too
many things, following too manyaccounts, listening to too many
diverse podcasts. And thosepeople that they're always
(20:09):
trying something different. AndI think again, coming back to
your strategy, when it comes towhat brands are doing that I
think they should be and theyshould continue to is humanising
their content and driving thepersonal aspect of their
business. Now, I think maybe itmaxes out at that medium-sized
(20:30):
business as a strategy, but Ithink it's almost the USP of
small and medium businesses thatability to go; "This is my
story, these are the people inthis business, this is the human
side of this business." Becauseagain, even definitely post
COVID people are connecting morewith people, they always have.
(20:53):
It's a tale as old as time, likewe had a dentist client must
have been in like 2014. Andwe've done all this dentist
content on Facebook, which youcan imagine was thrilling. And
then they had this Christmasparty at the guy's house, and
they did a post themselves atthe Christmas party. And the
(21:13):
thing that killed me the most isthey all had their shoes off,
which killed me. That one postwent better than the whole year
of posts. Because it's people.People want to see people. And
there was the worst images youcan imagine. No styling, food on
the tablecloth, you name it. Butit went so well. And I think
(21:34):
that has continued for over adecade that if you post about
people, if you tell the story ofthe people in your business,
your purpose, your why, allthose things, that will continue
to be your biggest competitiveadvantage.
Sarah Spence (21:47):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's something that one of
the shouldn't I think that wesee a lot is, particularly with
b2b brands, though small tomedium-sized b2b brands. So
often the founders are like,"No, no, I don't want to be the
face of it. I want the brand tostand for itself." And it's
like, I get that. I love thatfor you. I'm glad that that's
your vision, but you need to bepart of the story at this point.
Mary-Anne Amies (22:13):
Yes, correct.
Sarah Spence (22:14):
If you aren't, it's going to take you probably
five times as long to grow towhere you want to get to. If you
put yourself at the centre ofthe story, then you will get
there faster and then you cantransition out of that.
Mary-Anne Amies (22:27):
Exactly right. And it's what people will buy
into, the reasons why youstarted what you're trying to
achieve, what you put into theproduct and why it's different
to someone else. It all comesfrom you the person. Yeah, I
think if you can't...sometimespeople can't physically be the
face because maybe it is theirside hustle, different factors
(22:49):
are at play. But then you almostneed to identify someone in the
business that can be because thepower of it is just undeniable.
Sarah Spence (22:57):
For a while it was just me and I know many others
in the Freelancer community havethis story as well but I had
somebody in accounts payable.There was literally only me but
there was another email addressand her name...I think her name
was, what did I call her? Ithink I called her Samantha. It
was like quite a longsemi-prestigious kind of name
(23:20):
and it was like... she wouldemail to follow up on invoices
and everything. It was all mebut I was like, "No, I need to
make up this person so that it'snot me."
Mary-Anne Amies (23:30):
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. I mean, I've always
from day one, I didn't marketunder my name as the banner. I
always said we, everything saidwe. I mean, it was just me guys.
Everything said we from day dot.There's that strategy and again
(23:53):
comes back to what you thinkyour business is going to be but
I can hand on heart say I waitedtoo long to put myself in my
business and hid behind mybusiness for far too long and
the benefits of stepping out ofthat is huge.
Sarah Spence (24:07):
Absolutely. I second that. I think that comes
back to another tale as old astime particularly for women just
the imposter syndrome andfeeling exposed and like you're
going to be caught out for notknowing anything. I think that
was when I realised thatactually part of my superpower
(24:28):
was that I didn't knoweverything but I was so
determinately, if that's even aword curious that I would find
out if I didn't know andactually just started to have
the confidence to say toclients, "Yeah, look, I don't
know that or no, I'm not acrossthat trend. But you know what,
I'll check it out. And if italigns, then cool, we can give
(24:50):
it a try." What's the biggestchange that you have seen in the
industry over the years do youthink?
Mary-Anne Amies (24:57):
Yeah, it's interesting. The monetization of
all social media channels washuge and continues to be huge.
And I think necessary, when youthink of the amount of content
that is published every day,without a way to be a priority
(25:19):
in that content or to guaranteethat you can get a bit more in
front of the queue, I think isimportant. And it's also
important to the longevity ofthe channels. So to expect that
these channels could operate forfree for their entirety, they
wouldn't develop, they wouldn'tgrow, they wouldn't give us new
(25:40):
features to use. And hand overheart, the cost efficiency of
social and Google ads over thetraditional marketing
advertising tools we used touse, small business could never
have thrived the way it'sthriving now, so I've always
been a big advocate of, "What doyou mean the ads are unfair? "Of
(26:03):
course, they needed to makemoney. And I also believe that
Facebook and Google and all theother paid channels, they want
you to succeed, because if youdon't succeed, you won't invest.
So a lot of people kind of havethat. They just take my money.
Clients say it to us all thetime. They're just taking our
money, who knows what weactually got. Actually, if they
(26:24):
did that to everyone, everyonewould stop advertising and they
would lose their revenue. Sothey're not going to do that.
They want you to make the mostmoney so you spend on their
platform only. I think that'sbeen a massive shift, obviously,
is learning that monetizationhas to play a role.
I think another big shift iswhat we've just been talking
about the realisation aroundhumanization and face of the
(26:47):
brand kind of strategy because Ido think, it's wasn't just us
that were too late to market onthat. I do think that's been in
the last five years, a muchbigger trend and shift. And part
of that definitely, with thelaunch of Tik-Tok, I think for
the first time, we've seen thefall away of the perfect
(27:08):
aesthetic. And I think that'slovely, people still ask me, "Is
the Instagram grid? Is it stillimportant to have an aesthetic
grid?" I don't actually believeit is anymore. I feel like
things have really shiftedthere. Whereas, two years ago,
if my team sent me a schedule toreview and the grid didn't have
a pattern, I'd be like, "Whatare you doing? This grid is
(27:28):
revolting." Now, I don't evenview the grid. I don't even go
to the grid. I look at eachpiece of content individually, I
rarely look at the grid. And Ithink that's a massive shift
that's happened.
Sarah Spence (27:38):
Does anyone look at the grid anymore? Except for
business owners looking at theirown grid. And yes, figure out
what their brand identity is.
Mary-Anne Amies (27:47):
100%. I don't think that perfect mix of Canva
graphics and styled imageryflat, even flat lay, like people
want to see product in play now,as opposed to just an amazing
flat lay. I think that hands onreal down to earth and you look
at Tik-Tok down and dirty, nomakeup, hair in a bun, like
(28:13):
super real.
Sarah Spence (28:14):
The green screen ones, they're hilarious, because
they are so far from perfection.They're so imperfect. But
they're so engaging. And thenalso brands, I'm sure would much
rather...definitely would muchrather have that UGC, that user
(28:38):
generated content immigtaed orbeing shared. Our team love to
share what they've written. Andthere's been discussion recently
around like, ohh, are we able toshare a bit about how we found
the writing process for thisparticular article or whatever.
We don't want to annoy theclients. And I'm like, "We have
permission from all our clientsto share our work but
(29:01):
regardless, that is so much morevaluable to us and to the
client." Talking about howengaging you felt this was or
how interesting this topic wasor how proud you feel about
trying to break down socialnorms around period care for
instance, the work we do withModi Bodi," so like "Yeah, go
for it, guys." Gone are the daysof having to have that really
(29:23):
perfect, perfect view. You'reright. And I love it.
Mary-Anne Amies (29:27):
Yeah. Yes. Same here for it.
Sarah Spence (29:30):
Because I certainly, I am very far from
perfect myself. So takes thepressure off. Question about
rebelliousness. Do you see youragency is rebellious?
Mary-Anne Amies (29:43):
I feel like we're rebellious in the most
walk around the block threetimes backwards type of way. I
think rebelliousness comes frombeing about steady, slow,
growth. So I am by nature arisk-averse person, I love data
(30:03):
and I love to combine data withintuition. And through that I
have favoured slow and steadygrowth over bells and whistles.
And I know my business could bebigger. I know our social
followings could be much bigger.We've been around for 13 years,
our social followings don'treflect that, because I've never
(30:25):
been about the vanity metrics.I've always been about, I'm
happy to have as many followerswho would one day do business
with us, then have 200,000followers that have no desire to
work with us ever. So I thinkthat's my point of rebellion is
that it's always been aboutgenuinely helping. I think
(30:48):
something that I learnt from youinstead of people over profit,
people with profit is a lovelycorrection. But make balancing
those two things. And I'm noKing Kong, I'm no Sabri Suby,
I'm not looking to rabbit onabout the 20 million I made in
one year off four clients. Ijust wanted to have a genuine
(31:12):
impact for the businesses I workwith. I think that kind of makes
me rebelling against the trendof bro agency culture.
Sarah Spence (31:23):
Don't even get me started on bro agency culture.
That is a whole other podcast.Approaching your work with
intention and purpose createsconnection with people and
tremendous satisfaction. It isdefinitely one of my driving
forces. And I reckon that that'spretty rebellious these days.
(31:47):
But here's the thing. Not everybusiness owner knows the secret
to great marketing. If we'rehonest, not every marketer even
knows this. And so I wasinterested to find out Mary-Anne
doesn't just offer marketing tobrands and businesses, she also
teaches it to CEOs and businessowners, I wanted to know how
(32:09):
beneficial it is for an owner ofany business, to know what's
really happening in theirmarketing department, and
actually be able to lead that.
Mary-Anne Amies (32:18):
We know when it comes to our numbers, our P&L,
our cash flow, all those sortsof things. We might not feel
confident in them necessarily,but we know they're really
important. And we know they'rean area we need to focus on. And
we need to visit and we need tolook at and we need to assess
performance in. And then withour marketing, we kind of shy
(32:40):
away from it with it, nobodylooks at that. We send out
monthly reports, we're lucky if50% of clients read it, we're
lucky if 20% of clients replythat they've read it. Whether
the data is too hard for them toconsume, or they just don't
prioritise it, it's oftenignored. But understanding the
(33:01):
metrics of your marketing, likeyou can understand your P&L is
so critical, because wehave...and I touched on it
before so much data availablenow that we never had. Yes, you
put a TV ad out before and theykind of told you what they
thought people did based on avery small percentage that they
actually measured, right?
(33:22):
Whereas now we can look at whatage groups saw our ad, what age
group interacted with our ad,where people are located that
follow our social profiles, howthat followership has grown, all
this amazing data that can buildconfidence in our decision
making and forecast out.Alright, if we change adspend in
(33:43):
this way, we think we canachieve this or the model says
that we can achieve that. Notknowing or not spending time in
that data it's just a massivelost opportunity. And it's
funny, it's a two-pronged loss.Obviously, you can be spending
money, and not maximising thatinvestment. So you can be losing
(34:07):
out by overspending inunderperforming ways. But you've
got the lost opportunity of whatyou could be achieving, if you
were optimised, if youunderstood the data. And I sort
of started consulting for acouple of larger e commerce
brands last year that workedwith big agencies that were
managing ads. And again, youcome back to impostor syndrome.
(34:28):
I always think of my littleagency and your question, do we
do a good job of this? Do we doa good job of that? And when I
saw the reports that they weregetting from this massive
agency, I was like, "They're nottelling you anything. They're
actually just presenting data."Like all data and statistics,
you can make it sing whateversong you want it to. We can
(34:48):
manipulate data and statisticsto support our story we want to
tell. And I read these reportsand then I start asking
questions, they do not like memuch. I would start asking
questions. I'd like to see thedata this way, but I don't
understand when you said it...And I was sort of working with
this owner sort of saying, yes,they're telling you all this
(35:09):
great stuff, but this is wholeunderbelly of what they're not
reporting to you on. And I thinkmarketing professionals and
corporate roles, businessowners, that numbers acumen,
that digital acumen, likefinancial literacy is going to
be more and more critical asespecially paid and content
(35:29):
strategies increase.
Sarah Spence (35:31):
Absolutely. And even the interplay between them,
like just how critical tounderstand your financials to
the point where you then... andyour marketing data to the point
where you can then see how theyinteract. And again, those broad
levers that you need to pull tobe able to make the numbers
better. Gosh, I feel like I'm ona losing battle with trying to
(35:52):
understand my own financials.
Mary-Anne Amies (35:56):
You work at it, because you know you have to.
You know have to so you do, evenif it overwhelms us, we put the
time in because we know it'scritical.
Sarah Spence (36:06):
Very true. Very true. Final question. And we're
asking everyone this, of course,that AI, chatGPT, friend, foe,
or flash in the pan.
Mary-Anne Amies (36:19):
ohhhh I feel like I need a drumroll, I would
go with friend. Look, it'salmost like swooping back to
Facebook and monetization. Youneed to go with things, you
can't swim upstream againstthem. It's your friend. I don't
believe any of us are going tobe out of a job anytime soon,
(36:41):
because of chatGPT. What it canhelp you with with ideation,
what it can help you withrefining content, take from it,
the shortcuts and small wins youcan, but it's never going to
replace the heart. And even whatyou just said, then the head and
the heart that needs to gotogether into business, chatGPT
will never be able to be you.But it should be able to save
(37:03):
you a bit of time, and enhancethe best things about you.
Sarah Spence (37:07):
Yeah, totally agree. Definitely on the same
track with that. It'sinteresting, everybody we've
asked that, I think it's almostlike it's a trick question in a
way because I think if anyone atthis point said foe, maybe we're
all a bit worried that then itwould like come after us in our
sleep. But I also love thatnobody said like, I don't think
(37:30):
anyone has been naive enough tosay, "Oh, it's a flash in the
pan." Everyone recognises thatthis is an opportunity and they
want to they want to takeadvantage of it, which is a good
thing.
Mary-Anne Amies (37:40):
Yeah, 100%. I think flash in the pan is when
you think of the money and timethat's gone to develop these
tools, they've been in the worksfor a very, very long time. So
flash in the pan is super doopernaive to think.
Sarah Spence (37:59):
AI may not be a flash in the pan. But neither is
Mary-Aanne Amies and her agency"Wise Up Marketing." In fact,
it's her insight into what isjust a flash in the pan. And
what must be paid attention tothat has probably been a big
part of Mary-Anne's successthrough the years. She is not
the first guest to have talkedabout the human centred
(38:19):
approach, or how being openabout our imperfections actually
creates connection with ourideal audience. It's that beauty
within the terror, it's beingvulnerable, true moments of
honesty, they create trust likenothing else. And so if you can
really hold on to that value ofhonesty up high on that pedestal
(38:42):
for yourself and your business,I can guarantee it will do
wonders for your marketing andyour world.
Thanks for joining me on thisjourney. If you want to stay
rebellious in how you practicemarketing, how you show up in
your workplace and how you liveyour life, please subscribe to
the Content Rebels wherever youlisten to your podcasts. This
(39:05):
podcast was recorded on Awabakaland Darkinjung country. Produced
by Pod and Pen Productions.
The world has changed an awful lot in the past
decade. So anyone who's led asuccessful agency through these
changes must be worth theirweight in gold. Now, don't tell
anyone but Mary-Anne Amies isabout to let you in on the
secret she's learned fromrunning an agency since 2010.
And why she's now passionateabout making sure CEOs know
(00:24):
these secrets too.
Hi, I'm Sarah Spence. I grew aContent Agency from just me to
20 people inside two years. Soyou'd think I had all my shit
together. And even though I tryto come at everything with a
rebellious curiosity, I've beenso focused on growing this thing
(00:45):
that I'm a bit behind in thetrends. Join me on this journey
to find out what's actuallyhappening in the world of
marketing. Welcome to theContent Rebels.
There's been a lot of experts onthis podcast talking about how a
single strategy never reallyworks in isolation. The best
results seem to always beachieved by using multiple
(01:06):
marketing tools and blendingthem together to create a
targeted approach. So let's talkto someone who has had their
finger on the pulse of thesemany different tools for a long
time now. Mary-Anne Amies hasspent more than 20 years at the
forefront of the marketingworld.
Mary-Anne Amies (01:23):
I love to joke about being the elder millennial
of digital marketing. I almosthave like the home phone that I
could show you and dial out on.
Sarah Spence (01:32):
It was way back in 2010 when Mary-Anne launched her
own digital agency, Wise UpMarketing. She also coaches CEOs
and directors to take backcontrol of their digital
marketing decisions.
Mary-Anne Amies (01:45):
Thank you so much, Sarah, that is the
loveliest introduction.
Sarah Spence (01:50):
It's hard to know where to start when you talk to
someone who knows so much aboutdigital. So I started at the
beginning and asked Mary-Annewhat it was like to lead an
agency all the way back then.
Mary-Anne Amies (02:04):
Within my industry, there has obviously
been so much change, and that isdigital marketing. I joke that I
started when cat memes wereeverything and writing your life
story in reply on a Facebookcomment was normal. We had
amazingly high engagement, wedidn't pay a cent for anything.
It was all wins, and my gosh,how it's changed over 13 years.
(02:27):
So in the backdrop of anever-evolving industry, my role
and my purpose has reallyevolved as well. Like many
people, I started the agency onmy own, freelancing under that
banner. I built it up on my ownand as I brought on team and
(02:48):
grew team, I guess I was playingthat game of being everything to
everyone. So from clients, tostaff, to anyone who needed me,
I was all things. It's probablyabout three or four years ago
that I could kind of see thatwasn't sustainable for me
anymore. And I guess you startto almost lose your love for it,
(03:09):
because you're so stuck in thetrenches of it. And there's been
a big shift now and how leadingthat agency looks for me now. I
did a lot of work on myself andworking with an amazing coach
that you and I have in common.Now, my role is really about
(03:29):
vision and it's about leadershipand culture and making sure that
I have the right structure andprocesses and objectives in
place for my team so that we candeliver for our clients to the
values of the brand and reallymake sure that everybody in the
(03:50):
team aligns with those brand'svalues and really is
contributing to that broadervision. So it's different and
that means a lot less to-dolists ticking off which I
absolutely adore and massivechallenge for me to walk away
from and a lot more biggerpicture big thinking, sink your
teeth in sort of stuff. So yeah,it's been a really big
(04:12):
evolution.
Sarah Spence (04:14):
Was that the dream when you first started. Did you
want to grow to where you arenow and beyond?
Mary-Anne Amies (04:19):
It's so funny because it feels terrible to say
it in the environment wherepeople slog it out hard to build
a business and maybe it'sbecause it was 13 years ago and
and the kind of culture around;start a side hustle, build a
business, it wasn't around. So Ididn't kind of begin the
business with that pressure thatthere seems to be today.
(04:40):
So the big dream when I startedout was just about helping
people and I know that thatsounds so cliche, but it really
was... I had a corporate role. Iwas on a great trajectory in my
corporate gig. I probably wouldhave been a general manager
within the next six to 12 monthsof going back after maternity
leave had I stayed, but itdidn't fulfill me. And when I
(05:03):
was on maternity leave, helpingpeople, the tiniest businesses
with their marketing brought meso much joy. And I think my big
dream when I started was,firstly, how can I help more
people in this tangible way,where even if they're just
giving me $100, I can make asmall impact, and they are so
(05:24):
much better off for it. And thenthe other part of that dream
became the team. I for so longtalked about when I go back to
work, I'm doing this, but when Igo back to work, I'm doing that
but when I go back to work. Andthen I remember saying to my
husband one day, "I actuallythink the only thing I want is
the team." But the only reason Iwanted to go back to work is for
(05:46):
the people. And if I could havethe people around me, then this
could be something. And so Ithink my big dream has always
been around people. So betweengrowing and nurturing a team and
working with clients that Ireally want to help and want to
see succeed, that's it for me.
Sarah Spence (06:08):
Mary-Anne is onto something there. 13 years ago,
there really wasn't the pressureto make a million bucks with
your side hustle while yousleep. But somewhere along the
way, some clever person inmarketing probably came up with
a campaign and it just took off.And it became kind of the
ultimate dream. Well, that isuntil a global pandemic stopped
(06:30):
everyone's big plans in theirtracks. I'm pretty sure I'm not
the only one who noticed a shiftin business values and values in
general post 2020. And so I'mwondering what Mary-Anne thinks
about the impact COVID has hadon this hustle mindset.
Mary-Anne Amies (06:46):
People seeked and went back to seeking
stability. I think leading intothat COVID time, it was a lot
bigger. And it's almost all thedebunking of the fads as well,
like the four hour work week,the make money while you sleep
with a course, launch a courseand you'll never have to work
again. And then we would buildcourses for people and they'd be
(07:10):
like, "Oh, the student needsthis, the student needs that."
Yeah, like you sold a course youdidn't sell a packet of chips
and they went off to eat it, yousold a relationship, you sold an
ongoing relationship. And Ithink a lot of that stuff, those
dreams that was sold, all kindof got debunked, and people came
back to actually, if I'm goingto do something, I'm going to
(07:32):
put the hard slog in, I need tobe powered and driven by
something, not just dollars inthe bank.
Sarah Spence (07:39):
Absolutely. And yeah, COVID did absolutely
instigate that reassessment forso, so many people. Yeah, it was
an interesting time. When youstarted out, were there many
female peers doing the same kindof thing or you the only woman
around?
Mary-Anne Amies (07:59):
I feel like no, not really, it was quite lonely.
My friends were all incorporate, and definitely none
of my friends were startingbusinesses. All my friends I
went to uni with were climbingthe corporate ladder, I was
juggling babies, and building abusiness at the same time. I
think in that stage, at the verybeginning, I didn't have the
(08:22):
capacity to get out as much. Andwhen I did network with other
women in business, it tended tobe that they were a
product-based business or ayoga, yoga school. They didn't
tend to be in that consultingspace as much. And definitely I
(08:44):
feel like Melbourne, and I thinkit's still true, Melbourne seems
to have a more active integratedbusiness community than Sydney.
Sydney is such a big place. AndI feel like it... I've heard it
for over a decade, it's hard toget people out to events in
Sydney. And I think part of itis because of our geographic
(09:06):
spread. And I definitely went todifferent events during
different networking groups andthings, but I didn't often come
across digital marketing then.Fast forward say, oh, gosh,
maybe 2017 and that seemed to bethe era of; I've managed an
(09:28):
Instagram account really well,now think I could do this for
other people. I'm now a SocialMedia Manager, and that pathway
in, which is really valid aswell, but that kind of blew up
around that 2017, 2018 whereas Ifeel like before that, it was
like big, inaccessible agencies.Not necessarily as many kind of
(09:51):
small businesses offering thatorganic management, paid
management services.
Sarah Spence (09:55):
Yeah, I second that too in my corporate career
before I had my first, so thatwas pre-2014, it was anything
marketing wise that we weredoing. It was all the big
incumbent agencies, it wouldjust never have been on our
radar to even consider arelationship with a specialist.
(10:18):
And I love that that haschanged. And we get the
opportunity to work with biggerclients and even medium-sized
clients who aren't looking tothose big agencies for their
digital marketing, but they arewilling to talk to and engage
with a specialist, I think theyreally see the value in that,
which is nice.
Mary-Anne Amies (10:38):
And yeah, and I kind of think it's the evolution
of digital marketing as well,right? Because I often go on
that, like digital marketing isjust marketing. It's not its own
entity, it's marketing, and thechannels have changed to what
they were before. We hadmarketing before and we used TV
and radio. We have marketing nowand we can use those things. But
(11:00):
we can also use content orsocial media or web or SEO. And
I think probably those biggerbusinesses, and those marketing
individuals within them havelearned more to go, "Oh,
actually, what is the specificthing I need?" Rather than what
is the blanket of... and again,it's kind of that whole snake
(11:21):
oil era. I think we've talkedabout this before, Sarah, when
people were selling websites for50 grand that were the world's
most basic websites, becausenobody knew. And then I feel
like digital marketing has kindof gone through that as well,
the mysticism and the magictricks. And now people are like,
"Oh, actually, I understand it'sa series of tools, which tool do
(11:43):
I want? Who's the best person todeliver that tool with me?"
Sarah Spence (11:47):
Yeah, absolutely. That's so interesting. You're
right, the whole kind ofbusiness, growth trajectory, and
the evolution of digitalmarketing in the same level.
Let's talk about marketingitself. You're an expert in
many, many different dimensionsof marketing, including email,
nurture, direct, paid, websitedevelopment, all of those
(12:09):
things. What do you see as themost important aspect of
marketing these days?
Mary-Anne Amies (12:15):
It's super boring, but strategy and
foundations. [laughs]
Sarah Spence (12:19):
We love the boring stuff.
Mary-Anne Amies (12:21):
I know. And as we touched on, you've got your
tools and tactics, and they'regreat, and that you need them at
a certain spot, but without the"Who are you talking to? What is
the objective? What is thepurpose? Why are you even
marketing?" And I think, I sayit time and time again, and I
(12:41):
know you're exactly the same,"Who is the target market?"
Start there. Before you come tome saying, "We want to grow our
Tik-Tok, we want to grow ourInstagram." Who are you talking
to? Because if I don't know whoyou're trying to talk to, then I
don't know if that's the rightthing for you, or just some
friend at a barbecue has toldyou that they did it and they've
made $10,000. Now you want tojump on it too. So starting
(13:05):
always with the who, the why,getting your objectives in
place, and having that 360degree focus. It's a spider web,
digital marketing or the digitalStratusphere. And all those
different things you spoke oflike email, like direct pay,
nurture, web, they have arelationship with each other.
(13:28):
It's almost like no one tool inisolation is going to get you
there. It's the wholearchitecture of how you're going
to use them together. To buildthat architecture, you need to
know your strategy.
Sarah Spence (13:39):
Yeah, it's so true. But it's interesting,
though, whether you're a smallbusiness, medium-sized business
or a larger brand; in a largebrand, it's difficult to say,
"Okay, we need just one unifiedstrategy." But then likewise,
for a small business or mediumbusiness, it's often hard to
(14:00):
say, "Okay, we can put forwardthe investment for a single,
large overall strategy." How doyou deal with that kind of thing
with your clients? Because youdo tend to work with smaller
businesses. When you do thestrategy and you work out who
they're talking to, whatchannels matter to that
audience, do you then just putall your eggs into that one
channel basket? Or do you stilldo that broader strategy for
(14:21):
them?
Mary-Anne Amies (14:22):
Yeah, look, I think when a business comes to
us, and either they're new, andthey're looking to launch, or
they're what I would call stuck,so they're not getting the
results that they want, orthey're at that crossroads where
they're like, it's not working,and I don't know why, I do try
to encourage them down to thestrategy road, let's do a
(14:43):
strategy. And we do that, weactually do two hours of
workshopping with them directly.And through that we talk about
the ideal client, we talk aboutobjectives. We talk about brand
purpose, brand messaging. Andthen from there we go away and
build out the tactics and thetools. And to your point, no,
it's never just one thing.There's never a client where we
(15:04):
say just do Facebook or just doInstagram, it's always a
multi-tiered strategy becauseconsumers are in different
places.
We also generally work to twoideal client profiles for most
businesses. We might be going,"Okay, well, ideal client
profile one, we're going to findthem on LinkedIn, but ideal
client profile two, maybe we canget them on Instagram." So this
(15:28):
is what we'll do for theLinkedIn, this is what we'll do
for Instagram. You then need tobuild a website that can talk to
multiple target markets, the SEOstrategy, you might need to
balance it more towards one orthe other, depending on who the
big opportunity is. Butdefinitely there's always
(15:48):
multitier. And with smallbusinesses, especially, I'm
always very big on, you can't doeverything at once, it's all a
marathon, you gotta be in it forthe long run. So I never
encourage, even if there's threechannels that seem great for
them, I always sort of go,"Let's get these two, right
first, then we'll move on to thethird." Because I think that
(16:09):
overwhelm comes from when we tryto do everything, and we try to
do everything at once.Especially if they're going to
DIY some, they probably can'tafford to outsource at all, and
they're going to be really goodfor a couple of months, and then
they're going to go dead in thewater. So I'm very, very big on
that slow and steady kind ofgrowth.
Sarah Spence (16:30):
It's a good time to press pause here, because
this is something that trips upso many people, slow and steady
does always win. But as a smallbusiness myself, it's so hard to
know where to focus and where toput that time and energy so that
we land in that sweet spot wheresustainable growth can really be
(16:50):
achieved. It is such a balancingact. And I think this comes back
to being purposeful andintentional with how you
approach your marketing, butalso being realistic about what
is achievable for any givenbrand or business at that
moment. Start where you're at,and build on it. This throwing
(17:14):
everything at the marketing walland hoping something sticks. You
might say it's a tactic, butprobably not a very good one.
Even though sometimes I mustadmit, that's kind of what I do
myself. But I was so interestedto hear from someone like
Mary-Anne who has seen so muchchange, about the marketing
(17:34):
moves that brands still insiston taking even though they
really aren't working anymore.
Mary-Anne Amies (17:41):
Number one, digital marketing sin is jumping
straight into the doing so nothaving a strategy. And you
normally see that, in that kindof burst of activity and then
fading away. Those businesseswhere you kind of like they're
everywhere, and then they'renowhere is because they kind of
(18:02):
didn't know what they were doingor why. And they went at it. And
I guess wrapped up in thatjumping straight to the doing
and expecting immediate results.There's pretty much no immediate
strategy when it comes tomarketing. Let's even throw away
the word digital marketing. Whenit comes to marketing you need
(18:25):
to build a relationship. It's sofunny because the traditional
marketing frameworks they stillhold; you need to build
awareness, you need to turnawareness to consideration,
consideration to trial, trial topurchase, purchase to loyalty.
We are still the people we'vealways been and you need to go
(18:46):
through that process. And Ithink those that jump straight
into the doing; I want an adscampaign, I want it to go up, it
needs to go up by this week. Andthen three weeks later they're
the one knocking on your doorsaying, "I've had no uplift,
I've had no result, I've had nosale....I'm sort of like, "Well,
first of all, we need threemonths, when it comes to even a
(19:07):
good organic and paid... I'mcertain it's the same for you in
content. We need time. We needtime for those strategies we've
put in place to play out. Weneed time to learn, to test, to
measure, to adapt and all thosethings. So that wanting
immediate effect and wantingimmediate results I think that
(19:27):
that's one of those things thatyou just can't, you shouldn't,
you can't, you have to berealistic.
And then the second shouldn't isshiny objects and jumping on
trends. And then that comes fromno strategy or it comes from
that feeling of desperation. Soeither monitoring competitors
(19:48):
and perceiving, Instagram versusreality, perceiving that they're
doing so much better than you sotrying to jump on all the shiny
objects and trends that they'redoing. Or just listening to too
many things, following too manyaccounts, listening to too many
diverse podcasts. And thosepeople that they're always
(20:09):
trying something different. AndI think again, coming back to
your strategy, when it comes towhat brands are doing that I
think they should be and theyshould continue to is humanising
their content and driving thepersonal aspect of their
business. Now, I think maybe itmaxes out at that medium-sized
(20:30):
business as a strategy, but Ithink it's almost the USP of
small and medium businesses thatability to go; "This is my
story, these are the people inthis business, this is the human
side of this business." Becauseagain, even definitely post
COVID people are connecting morewith people, they always have.
(20:53):
It's a tale as old as time, likewe had a dentist client must
have been in like 2014. Andwe've done all this dentist
content on Facebook, which youcan imagine was thrilling. And
then they had this Christmasparty at the guy's house, and
they did a post themselves atthe Christmas party. And the
(21:13):
thing that killed me the most isthey all had their shoes off,
which killed me. That one postwent better than the whole year
of posts. Because it's people.People want to see people. And
there was the worst images youcan imagine. No styling, food on
the tablecloth, you name it. Butit went so well. And I think
(21:34):
that has continued for over adecade that if you post about
people, if you tell the story ofthe people in your business,
your purpose, your why, allthose things, that will continue
to be your biggest competitiveadvantage.
Sarah Spence (21:47):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's something that one of
the shouldn't I think that wesee a lot is, particularly with
b2b brands, though small tomedium-sized b2b brands. So
often the founders are like,"No, no, I don't want to be the
face of it. I want the brand tostand for itself." And it's
like, I get that. I love thatfor you. I'm glad that that's
your vision, but you need to bepart of the story at this point.
Mary-Anne Amies (22:13):
Yes, correct.
Sarah Spence (22:14):
If you aren't, it's going to take you probably
five times as long to grow towhere you want to get to. If you
put yourself at the centre ofthe story, then you will get
there faster and then you cantransition out of that.
Mary-Anne Amies (22:27):
Exactly right. And it's what people will buy
into, the reasons why youstarted what you're trying to
achieve, what you put into theproduct and why it's different
to someone else. It all comesfrom you the person. Yeah, I
think if you can't...sometimespeople can't physically be the
face because maybe it is theirside hustle, different factors
(22:49):
are at play. But then you almostneed to identify someone in the
business that can be because thepower of it is just undeniable.
Sarah Spence (22:57):
For a while it was just me and I know many others
in the Freelancer community havethis story as well but I had
somebody in accounts payable.There was literally only me but
there was another email addressand her name...I think her name
was, what did I call her? Ithink I called her Samantha. It
was like quite a longsemi-prestigious kind of name
(23:20):
and it was like... she wouldemail to follow up on invoices
and everything. It was all mebut I was like, "No, I need to
make up this person so that it'snot me."
Mary-Anne Amies (23:30):
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. I mean, I've always
from day one, I didn't marketunder my name as the banner. I
always said we, everything saidwe. I mean, it was just me guys.
Everything said we from day dot.There's that strategy and again
(23:53):
comes back to what you thinkyour business is going to be but
I can hand on heart say I waitedtoo long to put myself in my
business and hid behind mybusiness for far too long and
the benefits of stepping out ofthat is huge.
Sarah Spence (24:07):
Absolutely. I second that. I think that comes
back to another tale as old astime particularly for women just
the imposter syndrome andfeeling exposed and like you're
going to be caught out for notknowing anything. I think that
was when I realised thatactually part of my superpower
(24:28):
was that I didn't knoweverything but I was so
determinately, if that's even aword curious that I would find
out if I didn't know andactually just started to have
the confidence to say toclients, "Yeah, look, I don't
know that or no, I'm not acrossthat trend. But you know what,
I'll check it out. And if italigns, then cool, we can give
(24:50):
it a try." What's the biggestchange that you have seen in the
industry over the years do youthink?
Mary-Anne Amies (24:57):
Yeah, it's interesting. The monetization of
all social media channels washuge and continues to be huge.
And I think necessary, when youthink of the amount of content
that is published every day,without a way to be a priority
(25:19):
in that content or to guaranteethat you can get a bit more in
front of the queue, I think isimportant. And it's also
important to the longevity ofthe channels. So to expect that
these channels could operate forfree for their entirety, they
wouldn't develop, they wouldn'tgrow, they wouldn't give us new
(25:40):
features to use. And hand overheart, the cost efficiency of
social and Google ads over thetraditional marketing
advertising tools we used touse, small business could never
have thrived the way it'sthriving now, so I've always
been a big advocate of, "What doyou mean the ads are unfair? "Of
(26:03):
course, they needed to makemoney. And I also believe that
Facebook and Google and all theother paid channels, they want
you to succeed, because if youdon't succeed, you won't invest.
So a lot of people kind of havethat. They just take my money.
Clients say it to us all thetime. They're just taking our
money, who knows what weactually got. Actually, if they
(26:24):
did that to everyone, everyonewould stop advertising and they
would lose their revenue. Sothey're not going to do that.
They want you to make the mostmoney so you spend on their
platform only. I think that'sbeen a massive shift, obviously,
is learning that monetizationhas to play a role.
I think another big shift iswhat we've just been talking
about the realisation aroundhumanization and face of the
(26:47):
brand kind of strategy because Ido think, it's wasn't just us
that were too late to market onthat. I do think that's been in
the last five years, a muchbigger trend and shift. And part
of that definitely, with thelaunch of Tik-Tok, I think for
the first time, we've seen thefall away of the perfect
(27:08):
aesthetic. And I think that'slovely, people still ask me, "Is
the Instagram grid? Is it stillimportant to have an aesthetic
grid?" I don't actually believeit is anymore. I feel like
things have really shiftedthere. Whereas, two years ago,
if my team sent me a schedule toreview and the grid didn't have
a pattern, I'd be like, "Whatare you doing? This grid is
(27:28):
revolting." Now, I don't evenview the grid. I don't even go
to the grid. I look at eachpiece of content individually, I
rarely look at the grid. And Ithink that's a massive shift
that's happened.
Sarah Spence (27:38):
Does anyone look at the grid anymore? Except for
business owners looking at theirown grid. And yes, figure out
what their brand identity is.
Mary-Anne Amies (27:47):
100%. I don't think that perfect mix of Canva
graphics and styled imageryflat, even flat lay, like people
want to see product in play now,as opposed to just an amazing
flat lay. I think that hands onreal down to earth and you look
at Tik-Tok down and dirty, nomakeup, hair in a bun, like
(28:13):
super real.
Sarah Spence (28:14):
The green screen ones, they're hilarious, because
they are so far from perfection.They're so imperfect. But
they're so engaging. And thenalso brands, I'm sure would much
rather...definitely would muchrather have that UGC, that user
(28:38):
generated content immigtaed orbeing shared. Our team love to
share what they've written. Andthere's been discussion recently
around like, ohh, are we able toshare a bit about how we found
the writing process for thisparticular article or whatever.
We don't want to annoy theclients. And I'm like, "We have
permission from all our clientsto share our work but
(29:01):
regardless, that is so much morevaluable to us and to the
client." Talking about howengaging you felt this was or
how interesting this topic wasor how proud you feel about
trying to break down socialnorms around period care for
instance, the work we do withModi Bodi," so like "Yeah, go
for it, guys." Gone are the daysof having to have that really
(29:23):
perfect, perfect view. You'reright. And I love it.
Mary-Anne Amies (29:27):
Yeah. Yes. Same here for it.
Sarah Spence (29:30):
Because I certainly, I am very far from
perfect myself. So takes thepressure off. Question about
rebelliousness. Do you see youragency is rebellious?
Mary-Anne Amies (29:43):
I feel like we're rebellious in the most
walk around the block threetimes backwards type of way. I
think rebelliousness comes frombeing about steady, slow,
growth. So I am by nature arisk-averse person, I love data
(30:03):
and I love to combine data withintuition. And through that I
have favoured slow and steadygrowth over bells and whistles.
And I know my business could bebigger. I know our social
followings could be much bigger.We've been around for 13 years,
our social followings don'treflect that, because I've never
(30:25):
been about the vanity metrics.I've always been about, I'm
happy to have as many followerswho would one day do business
with us, then have 200,000followers that have no desire to
work with us ever. So I thinkthat's my point of rebellion is
that it's always been aboutgenuinely helping. I think
(30:48):
something that I learnt from youinstead of people over profit,
people with profit is a lovelycorrection. But make balancing
those two things. And I'm noKing Kong, I'm no Sabri Suby,
I'm not looking to rabbit onabout the 20 million I made in
one year off four clients. Ijust wanted to have a genuine
(31:12):
impact for the businesses I workwith. I think that kind of makes
me rebelling against the trendof bro agency culture.
Sarah Spence (31:23):
Don't even get me started on bro agency culture.
That is a whole other podcast.Approaching your work with
intention and purpose createsconnection with people and
tremendous satisfaction. It isdefinitely one of my driving
forces. And I reckon that that'spretty rebellious these days.
(31:47):
But here's the thing. Not everybusiness owner knows the secret
to great marketing. If we'rehonest, not every marketer even
knows this. And so I wasinterested to find out Mary-Anne
doesn't just offer marketing tobrands and businesses, she also
teaches it to CEOs and businessowners, I wanted to know how
(32:09):
beneficial it is for an owner ofany business, to know what's
really happening in theirmarketing department, and
actually be able to lead that.
Mary-Anne Amies (32:18):
We know when it comes to our numbers, our P&L,
our cash flow, all those sortsof things. We might not feel
confident in them necessarily,but we know they're really
important. And we know they'rean area we need to focus on. And
we need to visit and we need tolook at and we need to assess
performance in. And then withour marketing, we kind of shy
(32:40):
away from it with it, nobodylooks at that. We send out
monthly reports, we're lucky if50% of clients read it, we're
lucky if 20% of clients replythat they've read it. Whether
the data is too hard for them toconsume, or they just don't
prioritise it, it's oftenignored. But understanding the
(33:01):
metrics of your marketing, likeyou can understand your P&L is
so critical, because wehave...and I touched on it
before so much data availablenow that we never had. Yes, you
put a TV ad out before and theykind of told you what they
thought people did based on avery small percentage that they
actually measured, right?
(33:22):
Whereas now we can look at whatage groups saw our ad, what age
group interacted with our ad,where people are located that
follow our social profiles, howthat followership has grown, all
this amazing data that can buildconfidence in our decision
making and forecast out.Alright, if we change adspend in
(33:43):
this way, we think we canachieve this or the model says
that we can achieve that. Notknowing or not spending time in
that data it's just a massivelost opportunity. And it's
funny, it's a two-pronged loss.Obviously, you can be spending
money, and not maximising thatinvestment. So you can be losing
(34:07):
out by overspending inunderperforming ways. But you've
got the lost opportunity of whatyou could be achieving, if you
were optimised, if youunderstood the data. And I sort
of started consulting for acouple of larger e commerce
brands last year that workedwith big agencies that were
managing ads. And again, youcome back to impostor syndrome.
(34:28):
I always think of my littleagency and your question, do we
do a good job of this? Do we doa good job of that? And when I
saw the reports that they weregetting from this massive
agency, I was like, "They're nottelling you anything. They're
actually just presenting data."Like all data and statistics,
you can make it sing whateversong you want it to. We can
(34:48):
manipulate data and statisticsto support our story we want to
tell. And I read these reportsand then I start asking
questions, they do not like memuch. I would start asking
questions. I'd like to see thedata this way, but I don't
understand when you said it...And I was sort of working with
this owner sort of saying, yes,they're telling you all this
(35:09):
great stuff, but this is wholeunderbelly of what they're not
reporting to you on. And I thinkmarketing professionals and
corporate roles, businessowners, that numbers acumen,
that digital acumen, likefinancial literacy is going to
be more and more critical asespecially paid and content
(35:29):
strategies increase.
Sarah Spence (35:31):
Absolutely. And even the interplay between them,
like just how critical tounderstand your financials to
the point where you then... andyour marketing data to the point
where you can then see how theyinteract. And again, those broad
levers that you need to pull tobe able to make the numbers
better. Gosh, I feel like I'm ona losing battle with trying to
(35:52):
understand my own financials.
Mary-Anne Amies (35:56):
You work at it, because you know you have to.
You know have to so you do, evenif it overwhelms us, we put the
time in because we know it'scritical.
Sarah Spence (36:06):
Very true. Very true. Final question. And we're
asking everyone this, of course,that AI, chatGPT, friend, foe,
or flash in the pan.
Mary-Anne Amies (36:19):
ohhhh I feel like I need a drumroll, I would
go with friend. Look, it'salmost like swooping back to
Facebook and monetization. Youneed to go with things, you
can't swim upstream againstthem. It's your friend. I don't
believe any of us are going tobe out of a job anytime soon,
(36:41):
because of chatGPT. What it canhelp you with with ideation,
what it can help you withrefining content, take from it,
the shortcuts and small wins youcan, but it's never going to
replace the heart. And even whatyou just said, then the head and
the heart that needs to gotogether into business, chatGPT
will never be able to be you.But it should be able to save
(37:03):
you a bit of time, and enhancethe best things about you.
Sarah Spence (37:07):
Yeah, totally agree. Definitely on the same
track with that. It'sinteresting, everybody we've
asked that, I think it's almostlike it's a trick question in a
way because I think if anyone atthis point said foe, maybe we're
all a bit worried that then itwould like come after us in our
sleep. But I also love thatnobody said like, I don't think
(37:30):
anyone has been naive enough tosay, "Oh, it's a flash in the
pan." Everyone recognises thatthis is an opportunity and they
want to they want to takeadvantage of it, which is a good
thing.
Mary-Anne Amies (37:40):
Yeah, 100%. I think flash in the pan is when
you think of the money and timethat's gone to develop these
tools, they've been in the worksfor a very, very long time. So
flash in the pan is super doopernaive to think.
Sarah Spence (37:59):
AI may not be a flash in the pan. But neither is
Mary-Aanne Amies and her agency"Wise Up Marketing." In fact,
it's her insight into what isjust a flash in the pan. And
what must be paid attention tothat has probably been a big
part of Mary-Anne's successthrough the years. She is not
the first guest to have talkedabout the human centred
(38:19):
approach, or how being openabout our imperfections actually
creates connection with ourideal audience. It's that beauty
within the terror, it's beingvulnerable, true moments of
honesty, they create trust likenothing else. And so if you can
really hold on to that value ofhonesty up high on that pedestal
(38:42):
for yourself and your business,I can guarantee it will do
wonders for your marketing andyour world.
Thanks for joining me on thisjourney. If you want to stay
rebellious in how you practicemarketing, how you show up in
your workplace and how you liveyour life, please subscribe to
the Content Rebels wherever youlisten to your podcasts. This
(39:05):
podcast was recorded on Awabakaland Darkinjung country. Produced
by Pod and Pen Productions.
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