September 13, 2023 • 37 mins
In this inaugural episode, you'll meet Michael Messer - Business Coach for Social Entrepreneurs and Community Builders. When Michael was 27 years old, he was sent to a former prison camp in the Russian Far East. As an early practitioner of social impact investing, he met with a U.S./Russian joint venture to evaluate the positive economic impacts of an industrial project in Siberia. Michael saw how a single business focused on both economic and social measures of success can transcend job and wage creation to transform communities by shifting mindsets and empowering people.
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(00:06):
What does growth look like in your business in your life as a business owner,
executive or individual,
you can live and lead with intention to create the change you want to see in your community and the world.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies Podcast,
a place where we can see clearly and act wisely.
(00:30):
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies podcast.
I'm D Daniels and I would like to introduce the host and creator of this podcast,
business coach for social entrepreneurs and community builders,
Michael Messer,
Michael.
I'm so excited that we're sitting down and doing this podcast.
This is gonna be a great conversation.
I hope so.
Thank you so much.
I,
I really want to paint a very vivid picture of how you got into what you're doing.
(00:55):
Uh,
business coach is such a wide umbrella.
And I think,
you know,
the,
the story of how that came about is also very,
very interesting.
Yeah,
there's a lot of different business coaches and I would say for myself,
I,
I kind of people are like,
yeah,
you have a really different energy about you.
And I think some of that just kind of goes back to like why I'm doing it right.
(01:17):
Which is fundamentally this idea that I have,
which is business can be so much more than I think it is right now in,
in our world,
in our community.
And I just imagine this world in which businesses were leaning in and really trying to move the needle on the things that continually plague our world and our communities.
(01:37):
Right.
If every business said,
you know,
how can I be part of the solution on whatever it is?
That's interesting to them.
Think of how much faster and how much farther we could go as a community as a world.
You know what I'm saying?
So that's,
that's sort of where I come from.
And that kind of pervades a lot of the work that I do with,
with my clients.
So your journey didn't start as a business coach.
(02:02):
It started on Wall Street.
Well,
it started before Wall Street.
Like,
actually I think the seeds of where I'm at now and kind of what get me up out of bed,
what were planted like over 20 years ago.
What happened with me was,
I've kind of been that sort of social impact guy from the get go.
I came out of graduate school and I was like,
(02:23):
hey,
I'm gonna save the world and,
and you know,
I was gonna,
I was gonna do great things and I was always kind of fascinated by this idea of public,
private partnerships.
So,
like,
how can private companies kind of engage for good.
And so one of my first jobs ever was with the government and it was with an agency that helped us companies invest in low and middle income countries all around the world.
(02:51):
And my job was actually kind of as an economist and as someone who was there to evaluate the impact of these investments that we were,
we were supporting.
So imagine like a,
a company that wanted to,
you know,
build a factory or build a power plant in some place like India or you know,
South America in order for them to qualify for any type of support,
(03:15):
they needed to prove that they were gonna do something good in the localities and the communities that they were operating in and my job was to go kick the tires and make sure that was actually happening and it was so inspiring.
It really just completely turned me on kind of from the get go to this,
what's actually possible for any kind of business um out there to do good,
(03:37):
everything from small ones to big ones and really what a fire to,
to have lit inside you because I mean,
you were then able to carry that and then expound on it.
Yeah,
like I actually,
so what ended up happening is I,
you know,
I had a couple of sort of seminal experiences that really kind of galvanized me in terms of seeing what the possibilities were,
(04:00):
and I got so excited about that,
that I ended up leaving the government at one point and kind of leaning into,
I wanna really understand how business works because I was kind of a policy guy.
I was an economist,
I was kind of going and counting impact and talking to stakeholders and communities and sort of understanding how things were were playing out for them.
(04:21):
But at the time,
I was like,
I really wanna be on the inside of business and figure out how that works and like,
what the business side of these decisions are.
And so I went back,
I got an MB A.
Um and I started a career on Wall Street where I spent over 20 years,
you know,
working with pretty big companies on strategy,
(04:42):
risk financing,
really understanding what,
how they were thinking of the world.
But I always did it in the context of industries that I thought were actually serving basic human needs.
I did a lot in power.
I did food commodities,
I did logistics and infrastructure,
like building power plants,
hospitals,
roads,
that kind of thing.
(05:03):
So that felt good for a long time anyway.
Right.
You know,
it's interesting because I feel like all of those things are,
are so foundational for all of the people that you work with today.
You know,
when you're,
you're still looking at the bones,
you're still kicking the tire.
Totally.
Yeah,
absolutely.
Like nothing like it's,
it's been a common thread for me and my business,
(05:24):
which is like,
hey,
what's happening here and,
and,
and bringing a certain level of curiosity to it,
but also asking that question about,
you know,
what needs to change or what could change or what's possible?
Like,
that's a lot of what coaching is about,
which is thinking about the possibilities for your business,
both in terms of your profit,
your PNL,
how you want to show up,
but also the impact you wanna have.
(05:45):
Like,
how do you want to make decisions?
How,
how do you wanna be perceived?
How do you want to engage with your team?
How do you want to engage with your customers?
How do you want to engage with stakeholders in your community?
Like I,
I find those questions endlessly fascinating.
Um but also super impactful to getting people's businesses moving in the right direction because people really care,
(06:06):
they,
they want to identify and associate with businesses that are asking those questions and engaging people saying,
how can I help you?
Did you have a pivotal moment where things became,
you know,
really wide open for you as far as like this is the avenue?
Yeah,
totally.
(06:26):
Um So one of the things that I did when I was working in this job with the government was I got to,
I got to go to very interesting parts of the world.
They would send me to really obscure places which I thought was awesome.
I was like this,
this kind of young guy,
I was like 25 26 doing this work.
And they sent me to when I say the Russian like Siberia,
(06:49):
I mean,
this so literally the,
the place that I always tell the story like that was kind of like the most eye opening for me was literally a Russian prison camp.
They sent me to a city called Magadan,
which is in the Russian far east.
It's really pretty close to the Arctic circle and just a couple of hours away,
it was the city that was built in the thirties under Stalin,
(07:11):
essentially with slave labor.
So like all of these political dissidents throughout Russia,
when,
when Stalin was coming to power and they were kind of trying to consolidate power to the communists,
they would send to Siberia.
We've heard these stories and they basically built the city as the administrative center for where all of these prison camps kind of in these outlying regions were gonna were gonna kind of pop up around this central city.
(07:35):
So imagine it,
it it's like this place in which generations of people were there.
And most of or at least a lot of them,
their parents,
their grandparents,
they weren't there because they wanted to be there.
They were sent there to die,
like quite literally hundreds of thousands of people died in these camps because of who they were,
what their political beliefs were.
(07:56):
Yet,
they had a lot of like economic opportunity.
There were a lot of natural resources and kind of when the Soviet Union fell,
some American companies were looking at,
hey,
what can we do to partner with industry in these areas and kind of turn the page and I got the opportunity to work with one company that was absolutely transformational in terms of what life was like in this one city.
(08:22):
I feel like,
you know,
having an experience like that is,
is not only life changing,
it's,
there's that there's that opportunity for it to lay plans.
Yeah.
What I saw when I went there,
like,
and again,
I kind of was like going in like any,
any other trip that I had done,
which was like,
hey,
(08:42):
what are these guys doing?
They kind of told us they were gonna do Xy and Z,
are they really doing it?
Like,
are they doing anything that's potentially going to embarrass anyone?
Are they,
you know,
helping rather than hurting the community?
And what I saw was this company had come in and had been super intentional.
That's a word that I use all the time and it's really stuck with me,
(09:02):
which is intentional business.
They came in and they were super self aware of how they were gonna show up in this community before they did anything they knew it was.
So just as a little bit of context,
this was the first time an American company had joint ventured with a Russian company ever in this one space.
And then certainly in this region.
(09:23):
And so they were like,
hey,
there's gonna be a lot of skepticism,
there's gonna be a lot of suspicion about who we are and what we're trying to do here.
Right.
Given the Cold War had only been over for really,
like five or six years at this point.
Right.
And so what they said is like,
they're like,
we're gonna really lean in and try to figure out how we can become a community partner from the Get Go.
(09:43):
Which I think is so interesting because it was foundational to their success.
But what it did is it catalyzed this whole change that had this snowball effect uh and reached and touched so many lives um in ways I think they didn't even anticipate they went in and they asked,
they listened to the community like,
(10:04):
what do you need?
And they sat back and listened,
they looked at how they wanted to retain talent or how attract talent from the local population who were kind of like,
gosh,
do I want to work for this American company?
You know,
they were the enemy just a little while ago.
And so they really were like,
hey,
they were culturally sensitive,
they like,
did things that,
you know,
(10:25):
were kind of perks and special for the,
for the local community,
like,
you know,
are a big thing in Russia,
like steam baths.
And things,
stuff like that.
So like,
and they were living out kind of remote areas.
So they made sure they had really good Russian food available.
They had,
you know,
steam baths available.
But what was really interesting was they also really focused on the mindset of the people that were coming in?
(10:49):
And I think that was what was most transformational?
What they did was was they said,
hey,
I know that you've worked under this like communist system for a long time.
But there's a different way of doing things.
You can make choices and actually you get to fail,
you get to be wrong and it sounds crazy because who doesn't,
hasn't failed or who hasn't been wrong?
Well,
(11:09):
under the prior economic system,
they couldn't,
if they,
if they screwed up,
that could have huge impacts on their family,
right?
They could lose privileges,
they could be demoted,
they could be out and that was super scary.
So suddenly what happened is people started feeling empowered because they actually got to make choices.
They started talking outside of their silos.
(11:32):
They started reaching out to other people,
they started feeling seen and that was awesome.
I remember her crazy story.
So I had all these meetings while I was there.
This is the kind of place,
by the way,
it is so remote that at the time there was one flight a week to the city.
So I was there for a week for a minimum,
right?
Like,
it was like,
I flew to Anchorage and then Anchorage to the city and then,
(11:55):
like,
it was like,
and if the weather got bad on the day that the flight was supposed to leave,
like,
I was there for another week kind of thing.
Right.
Like,
so it was,
like,
really not easy to get to.
And so I was like,
hey,
I'm gonna talk to everybody I can talk to because I'm here for a week.
Why not?
Right.
I walk into this room and it was like this press conference that I didn't even know,
(12:17):
like there were like 50 people in there.
I'm like 25 years old,
there's all these cameras and I'm suddenly getting interviewed on like Russian TV,
about,
about like what's the government official doing,
you know,
here,
what's happening with this?
And what was really interesting around this conversation was that people were started talking about not so much what the company I was visiting was doing,
(12:42):
but the impact that it had on the community,
people were talking about,
people wanted to talk about how they felt they were hopeful.
They saw opportunities II I was talking to people and being interviewed by people who were saying,
you know,
one of the things that's interesting about,
about this is all of our young people had no opportunity here.
(13:02):
And so they were leaving.
And so like the the population of the city was kind of shrinking over time,
right?
Because we see that in the US all the time in some rural areas,
right?
Well,
suddenly people started saying,
hey,
maybe I can start a business,
maybe I can do a thing.
One of the very pointed questions I got in this interview was,
what other businesses are you gonna bring?
(13:22):
We want to partner with you now?
Like this was the,
this was they were our enemies for 50 years before this,
right?
And they were like,
we,
we suddenly get it super powerful for me.
Um Of course,
I was terrified about where this interview was gonna go.
Yeah.
But uh and I was like,
boy,
uh I wonder how folks at home are gonna think about this,
(13:44):
right?
You know,
it was uh it was eye opening to say the least and then to be doing that at 25.
I mean,
I mean,
I I could see why it would be just life altering and,
and what an impact,
what an impact to be a part of that.
Not only did the company take responsibility from the get go with intention,
(14:08):
but then to see it on your end,
the ripple start to happen with the community.
Totally.
I remember going to a meeting where some of like the local legislators from like the the the local government basically wanted to sit down and chat with me.
And so they were,
we were talking about business and kind of what the agency that I worked for did and what we were about and what was important to us and,
(14:31):
and then this one woman kind of stopped me and was,
like,
how old are you?
And I was like,
ah,
yeah.
Ok.
Um,
like,
I was super,
I was,
like,
really self conscious about it because I knew I kind of had a baby face and they were probably,
like,
you're the guy,
right?
So,
I was like,
yeah,
like,
I'm 25 26.
How old I was at the time and she's like,
you've accomplished so much.
(14:52):
I wish my son could see this.
And what she meant by that is we kept talking.
It wasn't about me.
It really wasn't about me.
What it was about was like,
wow,
there's an entire set of opportunities available generationally that people hadn't even considered and they were super excited about that and they wanted to figure out how to bring this mindset and see their kids doing things in other places,
(15:20):
doing important work and that was suddenly unlocked for them just because I was young and they thought gosh,
he's got this kind of opportunity and that was a new thing for them.
Yeah.
And,
and it really did.
Um It,
it,
it feels liberating,
you know,
just their emotionality feels,
it feels like freedom,
it feels like empowerment,
(15:42):
it feels like,
you know,
I can do this and I want my kids to be able to do this.
Yeah.
No,
absolutely.
It was,
it was,
it,
it felt like a place that was changing and even without a lot of life experience behind me at that point in time,
(16:02):
it was obvious enough that I recognized it and I was like,
wow,
so this is what a catalytic shift looks like in a community.
And that was just so cool.
Right.
It,
it showed me that like,
you know what,
the only real difference between the company that I was visiting and any other company is that they made a choice.
(16:24):
Like they said,
well,
we can choose to empower our people,
we can choose to engage with the community.
We can ask,
how do you need help?
We can offer up thoughtfully,
ways that we can solve local problems in a way that's meaningful for the people that are getting impacted.
Right?
Sometimes when I talk about this or you know,
(16:45):
people are like,
oh my God.
Well,
that sounds like a really big company and like,
you know,
they're,
they're doing all this stuff and it was a big investment and the government was behind it and all the stuff.
And I'm like,
yeah,
but notice I'm not talking about how much money they threw around.
I was talking about how they treated people and the choices that they made.
And I argue and I work with clients any size company.
(17:09):
I don't care how small you are.
You can be a solo preneurs and you can have the same level of intention in terms of how you want to engage and how you want to show up in your business.
Right.
So I try to get it away.
It's not about size mindset.
So you took that,
that sort of blueprint moment,
packed it up in your little suitcase and took it back to Wall Street for a bit.
(17:32):
I got,
yeah,
I mean,
this is getting a little finance nerdy but like,
I,
I really got involved and where I spent the majority of my career on Wall Street was this type of financial technology called project finance,
which is helping companies make discrete investments um in infrastructure.
Right.
(17:52):
So a lot of times that would look like power plants,
pipelines,
hospitals,
roads,
I worked on stadiums and arenas for a little bit.
Right.
And what's cool about it is,
it's kind of like these things are like little micro,
they're like kind of sometimes they're big,
sometimes they're not so big,
but like they're,
they're kind of these standalone things that have to plan out how they want to show up.
(18:15):
They have to get community support.
They may be affiliated with a larger company,
but really they're intended to kind of stand alone,
right?
And so I spent a lot of time in that space really seeing how companies in a very self contained way,
make decisions about how they want to get financed,
how they're gonna make money,
what their strategy is gonna be,
how are they managing their risks?
(18:35):
How are they dealing with their local stakeholders?
And so it was kind of a thread that went all the way through my career.
I liked being in that bricks and mortar space and it was,
wasn't always sexy to be on Wall Street in some of these areas because they're like,
oh,
wow,
you're going to a power plant.
Like,
how good for you.
Like people like,
that's so boring.
Right?
But for me,
it was cool because I'm like,
(18:56):
no,
no,
this is the kind of stuff that actually keeps the lights on like our lives.
Stop our,
you know,
our communities don't develop with this stuff.
Like we have to do it in a way that kind of makes sense.
So I,
you know,
I think it's very interesting because ii I feel like at some point you were able to take all of that,
(19:17):
all of that from that,
all of those experiences and then take a,
an avenue that really led you to deal with people one on one.
You know,
it's interesting.
So I talk about intention and I had like,
in retrospect,
people were like,
wow,
that was the coolest job you had with the government.
Why did you leave?
Well,
part of it was my curiosity to see how businesses actually worked on the inside.
(19:41):
But I made that change with my own intention and that intention was very specifically like I'm doing this.
So that I can learn and I can be a better evangelist for better business.
And I kind of made a promise to myself that I was gonna go back and I was gonna give back to my community when at the time that it made sense to do so.
(20:01):
And,
you know,
it ended up,
I,
I had like a 20 year career on Wall Street,
which was way longer than I thought I was like five years and done.
Right.
You know,
I'm also a career coach so I can talk to people out there all the time about like,
how you get trapped in a career that kind of takes on a life of its own.
I get that too.
Um But there,
there came a point where I had a realization where I'm like,
(20:24):
you know,
what this profession,
like,
I'm not living my values because I'm not honoring that commitment I made to myself.
And so my,
my business and opening my,
you know,
putting out a shingle and taking that risk as an entrepreneur was something I did because I was like,
this was on your bucket list to move the needle.
And that's what you need to be doing right now because you've spent enough time in the Wall Street thing and you,
(20:46):
you've got the information,
you know how it's done.
Now take it out.
Sometimes people ask me like,
gosh,
you've got this big corporate background on executive positions in big banks.
And stuff like,
um why aren't you working with like fortune 500 companies?
You could do that.
And my answer is simple.
It's like I can't have as much of an impact there.
Like the guy on Main Street is the one that we interact with day to day and impacts our life the most.
(21:13):
You know,
you want to think about Google and Amazon and those guys as having like,
you know,
kind of disruptors in our economy.
But small businesses employ most of us.
They're most of the stores that we interact with.
They are the engines of opportunities when people decide they want to live their best lives.
That's how that manifests.
(21:34):
And that's where I can make a difference because you don't have all of that structure,
you don't have,
you have,
I'm working with decision makers that can say right now,
this is the impact I want to have and this is how I want it to look and help me get there.
And that's what I do and,
and it's super powerful really.
And I know that's something we're gonna talk a lot about on this podcast is,
is what that journey looks like for a business owner.
(21:56):
What that journey looks like for uh any executive who is,
you know,
saying I want to be more intentional,
I want to have um I want to have the right impact on my community on this world.
Um I think we're all sort of in this,
in this window of opportunity where we're looking at those things in a different way,
especially those of us who are,
(22:17):
you know,
of a certain age.
And we're,
you know,
we've,
we've been around the block a few times and we're like,
man,
the next year I go around the block.
I want it to be better and I wanna leave a better uh footprint.
You know,
it's so funny,
like in my group of friends and,
and colleagues who talk about,
you know,
those of us of a certain age,
like,
you know,
they used to make movies about midlife crises and stuff.
(22:40):
But like,
I think the way that actually manifests in the world is people start asking at a certain point in their life,
existential questions about why am I here and that it's all part of it,
right?
Like so I can work with individuals or I can work with companies,
but it's really about what is your purpose?
(23:00):
What do you want to bring?
Like when you look back on it all,
what do you want to say your legacy was and you accomplished?
How did you move the needle on the things that are important to you?
It took me so long to figure out what fulfillment actually means and looks like and really it's,
it's kind of basic,
it's living your values.
(23:21):
That's it.
Are you aligning what you are doing with your values?
I don't make judgments with my clients about what values that they hold and what they want to see.
Right.
It's really about helping them identify the impact that they want and how to use their business as an extension of that in a way that's organic,
in a way that's profitable,
(23:42):
in a way that's meaningful for all of their stakeholders.
It's not just about the owner,
but it's about the employees,
it's about the customers,
it's about the communities and like asking those questions like,
where's the win,
win,
win here?
And you know,
people come at that.
Sometimes it starts off like,
hey,
(24:02):
I just,
you know,
we're not profitable or I need more cash flow and it's very often where it starts,
it's totally ok not to swing for the big impact on day one.
Like you've got to get your own house in order like you are running a business,
it needs to be profitable,
it needs to be sustainable,
right?
And so that's ok if it,
(24:22):
if,
if the plan is work on the business first,
get it to a place where you can create space for yourself to really do that visioning work,
right?
What often I find is that one of the strategies to get to that place where your business is sustainable and thriving and profitable is doing zero cost or low cost things that are engaging.
(24:45):
And so it's win,
win because you start to explore ways that you can kind of have an impact and align your work with your values.
And suddenly you start seeing how your commitment to that comes back to your business in a really meaningful way.
And I mean,
honestly,
one of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast in the first place was to kind of explore that and talk to people that absolutely started businesses on the back of what they wanted to see change in the world.
(25:17):
Yeah,
it's awesome.
It is awesome.
And there are so many people who are doing that and I'm excited to get their stories on,
on this podcast too.
I think it's gonna be,
it's gonna be amazing to hear that because once we take out company name title,
we take out all those things and we look at what are the decisions we're making?
What are the intentions that we have?
(25:38):
We're all on the same level.
Yeah,
I know.
I mean,
it's so funny when you say decision making.
So like for me,
like,
it kind of kind of comes back to the name of the podcast and the name of my company,
which is discerning strategies,
right?
Like when you're talking about decision making,
discerning is about that word literally means bringing keen in sight and judgment to a to a topic.
(26:01):
The way I experience that word,
what it means for me is making a better decision,
right?
What is the best decision?
What is the better decision that you can be making and you could be considering.
Are you discerning what the possibilities are and the options are?
But you're right at the end of the day,
we're all just trying to meet fundamental needs as humans.
(26:22):
And that's a lot of my motivation in doing this work too,
which is like putting people and human humanity back into business because so many people I feel like are going through the world right now feeling like they live to serve business versus business,
serving them in their communities.
And like,
I just feel like that script needs to be flipped entirely,
right?
(26:42):
It's not like this Phantom shareholder,
there's nothing wrong with making money.
In fact,
I tell my clients all the time,
you've got to make money to expand your impact.
You have to be profitable.
Like if you're not profitable,
you're not going to be sustaining and you're not gonna be able to have and achieve the impact that you want,
right?
But this idea that this Phantom stockholder,
we don't know who this guy is,
right?
Whoever is kind of controlling all of this wealth and nobody knows what it's for and we're just doing it because the guy says this is what you're supposed to be doing.
(27:11):
And like,
nobody ever really feels the benefit of that.
Like that's not,
that's not the version of business that I believe in.
And,
and you think about the people who are coming in to work for this Phantom person,
you know,
you think about when they come in on Monday and then on Tuesday and then on Wednesday and they're putting all their,
their creativity on the table and they're working hard.
(27:31):
And then at the end of the week,
they might ask themselves the question of,
like,
where is all this going?
Exactly.
Like,
what am I getting out of it?
Right.
Like,
that's a huge thing.
Like,
right now,
the number one thing that I feel like business owners are coming to me with or expressing concern about is like,
I can't hire and retain talent.
(27:53):
Ok.
Well,
what's happened in the world around us?
And this is the market,
this is a market for us people.
So it's not,
you know,
there's no agenda here.
This is what your market is actually telling you is that your wage is no longer the,
the the single thing that people are choosing to evaluate their career or their job with.
(28:15):
There needs to be an entire value proposition around what employment looks like.
So,
you know,
this certainly this is true of millennials and hugely true with Gen Z.
It's like people wanna feel purposeful,
they wanna feel like they're having an impact and meaning in their,
in their jobs,
right?
(28:35):
If you just say,
well,
I'm paying you $17 an hour.
Isn't that enough?
My answer to that is no,
that's why you're not attracting people.
So how do you turn that around?
You engage you,
you partner with organizations that provide meaning for the work you give of your time,
treasure.
And so,
you know,
and talents right um into the community.
(28:56):
And that's a great way of getting people who see that and are like,
I really like what you're doing and because I like what you're doing.
I wanna work with you and I'm,
I'm all in on,
on what you're trying to do both from a business perspective,
as well as out in the community.
And suddenly you have less turnover.
I love how you're doing that in,
in your community,
your local community.
(29:17):
But you're also having such a ripple effect with people all over the place.
It doesn't matter what state they're in,
what community they're in,
when they are looking at their structure and want better results.
You,
you are able to look at that community and say doesn't matter the community,
we can have an impact.
Absolutely.
Like almost all of my clients,
(29:39):
I'm very,
I'm very fortunate,
really are kind of change makers in their own,
right?
Like every single one of them is,
is,
is trying to create a ripple effect on their own.
And so if I can work with that person and they're working with their people and that change,
it just starts cascading,
right?
It just cascades.
So it's super gratifying to know that like I can actually have an outsized impact just by doing what I love what I'm good at in working with the right people and that's kind of simply put,
(30:13):
like,
kind of what I want to help businesses do,
do what's you and authentic and good and profitable for you do it with the right people and see what comes of it and lean into it.
Like,
it's just,
it's really not any more complicated than that.
Right.
Right.
I love the lean in phrase because I never get over it because it's really the thing of,
(30:33):
of we all have to do,
it's find the lane,
you know,
find where the lane is going and let's lean in.
Yeah.
You know,
it's so interesting.
So one of the things about leaning in that going back to my like Gulag story,
right?
Um That was really interesting about this company.
Like I kind of came in and experienced what was happening in this,
(30:58):
in this Russian city a few years after this company had sort of kind of gotten in there and started setting itself up.
So,
like they had a bit of a track record,
it just didn't happen overnight,
right.
But what was really interesting about it was at the time,
the overall environment for that company was starting to turn against them.
(31:19):
You know,
there was a global market that they were part of and that global market was starting to weaken.
What was really interesting about it is they had the awareness to say we're gonna double down on these investments in our community and this impact when like,
yeah,
the bottom line is starting to shrink,
right so often and we just,
(31:39):
we really don't have to look very far.
Um with what I consider to be kind of performative,
you know,
corporate actions where as soon as things get tough.
Oh sorry,
that's no longer in the budget.
We can no longer do it because we're working for Phantom man over here.
That's what it says.
No leaning in means you stay the course.
(32:00):
You don't take your eye off of where you wanna go and the impact you wanna have,
you can change tactics.
You can make a left turn,
you can make a right turn.
You can like go around a lo in loops,
right?
Whatever needs at that point to be done,
do it.
But you can't trade in and out.
Once you start doing this work,
you've got to be in it and companies that are like,
oh yeah,
I think this is a good pr thing people see through it.
(32:22):
It's all about authenticity.
So like I would never counsel any company to lean into their community if they felt like they weren't in it for something that was authentically meaningful that they could explain why it was important and justify staying into it even when times are hard.
And again,
it's not always about money.
You can't be in it just to check a box.
(32:43):
Yeah.
No,
you're right.
People see right through that.
It's,
it's,
yeah,
like inauthenticity is is like the kiss of death because you do it once you are done,
people remember that.
People like,
what's,
what's the quote,
I'm gonna get the quote screwed up.
But it's like,
um,
you know,
people remember how you made them feel,
(33:04):
right.
It's the same thing.
Like you can make them feel good but then if you make them feel really bad because it wasn't authentic and true,
they don't forget that,
that,
that,
I mean,
trust,
you know.
Yeah,
exactly.
That's a,
that's a hard thing to come back from.
I love the trust word because it's so foundational to everything.
(33:25):
It,
it really is.
I mean,
even to simplify it better,
it's like,
how do you as a business owner build trust,
how do you build trust with your employees?
How do you build it with your customers?
How do you build it with their community?
It's like when COVID happens and suddenly,
like,
people are,
like,
go fund me because they don't want to see their local restaurant go out of business.
Like,
that's awesome.
That means you've built trust that you've created a sustaining impact in the area that you are operating in and people don't want to see that go away because it's meaningful to them.
(33:53):
Right.
Um,
so,
yeah,
I love that.
Yeah,
that was interesting.
You bring up COVID because that was a,
that was a very interesting time for the local business.
It was,
it was difficult and,
and awful in so many things.
But,
you know,
you did see pretty clearly pretty immediately what impact that business had on the community because of the community support immediately and it was either there or it wasn't there.
(34:21):
Well,
even more to the point when something that is like,
so disruptive to our lives,
our economies,
the whole world,
I mean,
like,
we've never seen anything like that,
but like being an intentional business for me means minimizing harm.
And sometimes in order to minimize harm,
you have to think creatively and you have to think about like,
(34:41):
how can I create a situation where I'm benefiting?
But my stakeholders are benefiting as well.
And what that fundamentally does is it puts business owners into a really creative space around crafting relationships that really matter and work when they're under stress.
So when you see something like COVID,
these businesses that we're already thinking about,
(35:03):
how can we be,
win,
win around,
you know,
across our operations and in our communities,
we're already so far ahead of being able to actually benefit from that disruption,
right?
If you treat your suppliers really well and you've created a win-win relationship with that supplier,
(35:24):
do you think you're the first one?
They're gonna cut off?
No.
So everyone else is,
their deliveries are being delayed,
costs are going up whatever relationships matter people,
right?
And so that is,
that's actually a direct competitive advantage for your business in these times of huge stress and you're used to thinking about creative solutions to things.
(35:48):
And so when you have to pivot,
you've got your team and people that you already trust to figure out.
OK,
how can we get through this together?
So COVID was like a great litmus test for businesses.
I think I saw it a lot in the nonprofit space too.
You know,
I wanna,
I wanna just shout out our nonprofit leaders out there and the amazing work that they do with few resources and the tremendous amount of creative thinking that they have to do when times are good and bad.
(36:15):
Yes.
Yes.
And the impact that they have and,
and what they do to multiply that impact as much as possible with,
like you said,
uh,
limited finances.
Yeah,
it's amazing.
I'm so looking forward to continuing this conversation.
We have so many things,
of course that we're gonna hit on and so many guests that are gonna be on the podcast and I know that that's one of the greatest goals that you have with this podcast is to make a,
(36:41):
a bigger and better impact.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Like I wanna,
I wanna shout out people that are,
that are trying to move the needle that are being intentional that are making the better choices.
That's what it's all about for me.
And like,
if I can just inspire one person out there to try to make that better choice for their business or for themselves,
(37:01):
I don't know what's gonna happen with that impact,
but the fact that there's a positive impact is just super gratifying to me.
I love that.
That's what gets me up in the morning.
You can find Michael Messer at discerning strategies dot com.
Set up a free 20 minute consultation,
clarify your goals,
scale your business,
(37:22):
amplify your impact,
discerning strategies dot com.
What does growth look like in your business in your life as a business owner,
executive or individual,
you can live and lead with intention to create the change you want to see in your community and the world.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies Podcast,
a place where we can see clearly and act wisely.
(00:30):
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies podcast.
I'm D Daniels and I would like to introduce the host and creator of this podcast,
business coach for social entrepreneurs and community builders,
Michael Messer,
Michael.
I'm so excited that we're sitting down and doing this podcast.
This is gonna be a great conversation.
I hope so.
Thank you so much.
I,
I really want to paint a very vivid picture of how you got into what you're doing.
(00:55):
Uh,
business coach is such a wide umbrella.
And I think,
you know,
the,
the story of how that came about is also very,
very interesting.
Yeah,
there's a lot of different business coaches and I would say for myself,
I,
I kind of people are like,
yeah,
you have a really different energy about you.
And I think some of that just kind of goes back to like why I'm doing it right.
(01:17):
Which is fundamentally this idea that I have,
which is business can be so much more than I think it is right now in,
in our world,
in our community.
And I just imagine this world in which businesses were leaning in and really trying to move the needle on the things that continually plague our world and our communities.
(01:37):
Right.
If every business said,
you know,
how can I be part of the solution on whatever it is?
That's interesting to them.
Think of how much faster and how much farther we could go as a community as a world.
You know what I'm saying?
So that's,
that's sort of where I come from.
And that kind of pervades a lot of the work that I do with,
with my clients.
So your journey didn't start as a business coach.
(02:02):
It started on Wall Street.
Well,
it started before Wall Street.
Like,
actually I think the seeds of where I'm at now and kind of what get me up out of bed,
what were planted like over 20 years ago.
What happened with me was,
I've kind of been that sort of social impact guy from the get go.
I came out of graduate school and I was like,
(02:23):
hey,
I'm gonna save the world and,
and you know,
I was gonna,
I was gonna do great things and I was always kind of fascinated by this idea of public,
private partnerships.
So,
like,
how can private companies kind of engage for good.
And so one of my first jobs ever was with the government and it was with an agency that helped us companies invest in low and middle income countries all around the world.
(02:51):
And my job was actually kind of as an economist and as someone who was there to evaluate the impact of these investments that we were,
we were supporting.
So imagine like a,
a company that wanted to,
you know,
build a factory or build a power plant in some place like India or you know,
South America in order for them to qualify for any type of support,
(03:15):
they needed to prove that they were gonna do something good in the localities and the communities that they were operating in and my job was to go kick the tires and make sure that was actually happening and it was so inspiring.
It really just completely turned me on kind of from the get go to this,
what's actually possible for any kind of business um out there to do good,
(03:37):
everything from small ones to big ones and really what a fire to,
to have lit inside you because I mean,
you were then able to carry that and then expound on it.
Yeah,
like I actually,
so what ended up happening is I,
you know,
I had a couple of sort of seminal experiences that really kind of galvanized me in terms of seeing what the possibilities were,
(04:00):
and I got so excited about that,
that I ended up leaving the government at one point and kind of leaning into,
I wanna really understand how business works because I was kind of a policy guy.
I was an economist,
I was kind of going and counting impact and talking to stakeholders and communities and sort of understanding how things were were playing out for them.
(04:21):
But at the time,
I was like,
I really wanna be on the inside of business and figure out how that works and like,
what the business side of these decisions are.
And so I went back,
I got an MB A.
Um and I started a career on Wall Street where I spent over 20 years,
you know,
working with pretty big companies on strategy,
(04:42):
risk financing,
really understanding what,
how they were thinking of the world.
But I always did it in the context of industries that I thought were actually serving basic human needs.
I did a lot in power.
I did food commodities,
I did logistics and infrastructure,
like building power plants,
hospitals,
roads,
that kind of thing.
(05:03):
So that felt good for a long time anyway.
Right.
You know,
it's interesting because I feel like all of those things are,
are so foundational for all of the people that you work with today.
You know,
when you're,
you're still looking at the bones,
you're still kicking the tire.
Totally.
Yeah,
absolutely.
Like nothing like it's,
it's been a common thread for me and my business,
(05:24):
which is like,
hey,
what's happening here and,
and,
and bringing a certain level of curiosity to it,
but also asking that question about,
you know,
what needs to change or what could change or what's possible?
Like,
that's a lot of what coaching is about,
which is thinking about the possibilities for your business,
both in terms of your profit,
your PNL,
how you want to show up,
but also the impact you wanna have.
(05:45):
Like,
how do you want to make decisions?
How,
how do you wanna be perceived?
How do you want to engage with your team?
How do you want to engage with your customers?
How do you want to engage with stakeholders in your community?
Like I,
I find those questions endlessly fascinating.
Um but also super impactful to getting people's businesses moving in the right direction because people really care,
(06:06):
they,
they want to identify and associate with businesses that are asking those questions and engaging people saying,
how can I help you?
Did you have a pivotal moment where things became,
you know,
really wide open for you as far as like this is the avenue?
Yeah,
totally.
(06:26):
Um So one of the things that I did when I was working in this job with the government was I got to,
I got to go to very interesting parts of the world.
They would send me to really obscure places which I thought was awesome.
I was like this,
this kind of young guy,
I was like 25 26 doing this work.
And they sent me to when I say the Russian like Siberia,
(06:49):
I mean,
this so literally the,
the place that I always tell the story like that was kind of like the most eye opening for me was literally a Russian prison camp.
They sent me to a city called Magadan,
which is in the Russian far east.
It's really pretty close to the Arctic circle and just a couple of hours away,
it was the city that was built in the thirties under Stalin,
(07:11):
essentially with slave labor.
So like all of these political dissidents throughout Russia,
when,
when Stalin was coming to power and they were kind of trying to consolidate power to the communists,
they would send to Siberia.
We've heard these stories and they basically built the city as the administrative center for where all of these prison camps kind of in these outlying regions were gonna were gonna kind of pop up around this central city.
(07:35):
So imagine it,
it it's like this place in which generations of people were there.
And most of or at least a lot of them,
their parents,
their grandparents,
they weren't there because they wanted to be there.
They were sent there to die,
like quite literally hundreds of thousands of people died in these camps because of who they were,
what their political beliefs were.
(07:56):
Yet,
they had a lot of like economic opportunity.
There were a lot of natural resources and kind of when the Soviet Union fell,
some American companies were looking at,
hey,
what can we do to partner with industry in these areas and kind of turn the page and I got the opportunity to work with one company that was absolutely transformational in terms of what life was like in this one city.
(08:22):
I feel like,
you know,
having an experience like that is,
is not only life changing,
it's,
there's that there's that opportunity for it to lay plans.
Yeah.
What I saw when I went there,
like,
and again,
I kind of was like going in like any,
any other trip that I had done,
which was like,
hey,
(08:42):
what are these guys doing?
They kind of told us they were gonna do Xy and Z,
are they really doing it?
Like,
are they doing anything that's potentially going to embarrass anyone?
Are they,
you know,
helping rather than hurting the community?
And what I saw was this company had come in and had been super intentional.
That's a word that I use all the time and it's really stuck with me,
(09:02):
which is intentional business.
They came in and they were super self aware of how they were gonna show up in this community before they did anything they knew it was.
So just as a little bit of context,
this was the first time an American company had joint ventured with a Russian company ever in this one space.
And then certainly in this region.
(09:23):
And so they were like,
hey,
there's gonna be a lot of skepticism,
there's gonna be a lot of suspicion about who we are and what we're trying to do here.
Right.
Given the Cold War had only been over for really,
like five or six years at this point.
Right.
And so what they said is like,
they're like,
we're gonna really lean in and try to figure out how we can become a community partner from the Get Go.
(09:43):
Which I think is so interesting because it was foundational to their success.
But what it did is it catalyzed this whole change that had this snowball effect uh and reached and touched so many lives um in ways I think they didn't even anticipate they went in and they asked,
they listened to the community like,
(10:04):
what do you need?
And they sat back and listened,
they looked at how they wanted to retain talent or how attract talent from the local population who were kind of like,
gosh,
do I want to work for this American company?
You know,
they were the enemy just a little while ago.
And so they really were like,
hey,
they were culturally sensitive,
they like,
did things that,
you know,
(10:25):
were kind of perks and special for the,
for the local community,
like,
you know,
are a big thing in Russia,
like steam baths.
And things,
stuff like that.
So like,
and they were living out kind of remote areas.
So they made sure they had really good Russian food available.
They had,
you know,
steam baths available.
But what was really interesting was they also really focused on the mindset of the people that were coming in?
(10:49):
And I think that was what was most transformational?
What they did was was they said,
hey,
I know that you've worked under this like communist system for a long time.
But there's a different way of doing things.
You can make choices and actually you get to fail,
you get to be wrong and it sounds crazy because who doesn't,
hasn't failed or who hasn't been wrong?
Well,
(11:09):
under the prior economic system,
they couldn't,
if they,
if they screwed up,
that could have huge impacts on their family,
right?
They could lose privileges,
they could be demoted,
they could be out and that was super scary.
So suddenly what happened is people started feeling empowered because they actually got to make choices.
They started talking outside of their silos.
(11:32):
They started reaching out to other people,
they started feeling seen and that was awesome.
I remember her crazy story.
So I had all these meetings while I was there.
This is the kind of place,
by the way,
it is so remote that at the time there was one flight a week to the city.
So I was there for a week for a minimum,
right?
Like,
it was like,
I flew to Anchorage and then Anchorage to the city and then,
(11:55):
like,
it was like,
and if the weather got bad on the day that the flight was supposed to leave,
like,
I was there for another week kind of thing.
Right.
Like,
so it was,
like,
really not easy to get to.
And so I was like,
hey,
I'm gonna talk to everybody I can talk to because I'm here for a week.
Why not?
Right.
I walk into this room and it was like this press conference that I didn't even know,
(12:17):
like there were like 50 people in there.
I'm like 25 years old,
there's all these cameras and I'm suddenly getting interviewed on like Russian TV,
about,
about like what's the government official doing,
you know,
here,
what's happening with this?
And what was really interesting around this conversation was that people were started talking about not so much what the company I was visiting was doing,
(12:42):
but the impact that it had on the community,
people were talking about,
people wanted to talk about how they felt they were hopeful.
They saw opportunities II I was talking to people and being interviewed by people who were saying,
you know,
one of the things that's interesting about,
about this is all of our young people had no opportunity here.
(13:02):
And so they were leaving.
And so like the the population of the city was kind of shrinking over time,
right?
Because we see that in the US all the time in some rural areas,
right?
Well,
suddenly people started saying,
hey,
maybe I can start a business,
maybe I can do a thing.
One of the very pointed questions I got in this interview was,
what other businesses are you gonna bring?
(13:22):
We want to partner with you now?
Like this was the,
this was they were our enemies for 50 years before this,
right?
And they were like,
we,
we suddenly get it super powerful for me.
Um Of course,
I was terrified about where this interview was gonna go.
Yeah.
But uh and I was like,
boy,
uh I wonder how folks at home are gonna think about this,
(13:44):
right?
You know,
it was uh it was eye opening to say the least and then to be doing that at 25.
I mean,
I mean,
I I could see why it would be just life altering and,
and what an impact,
what an impact to be a part of that.
Not only did the company take responsibility from the get go with intention,
(14:08):
but then to see it on your end,
the ripple start to happen with the community.
Totally.
I remember going to a meeting where some of like the local legislators from like the the the local government basically wanted to sit down and chat with me.
And so they were,
we were talking about business and kind of what the agency that I worked for did and what we were about and what was important to us and,
(14:31):
and then this one woman kind of stopped me and was,
like,
how old are you?
And I was like,
ah,
yeah.
Ok.
Um,
like,
I was super,
I was,
like,
really self conscious about it because I knew I kind of had a baby face and they were probably,
like,
you're the guy,
right?
So,
I was like,
yeah,
like,
I'm 25 26.
How old I was at the time and she's like,
you've accomplished so much.
(14:52):
I wish my son could see this.
And what she meant by that is we kept talking.
It wasn't about me.
It really wasn't about me.
What it was about was like,
wow,
there's an entire set of opportunities available generationally that people hadn't even considered and they were super excited about that and they wanted to figure out how to bring this mindset and see their kids doing things in other places,
(15:20):
doing important work and that was suddenly unlocked for them just because I was young and they thought gosh,
he's got this kind of opportunity and that was a new thing for them.
Yeah.
And,
and it really did.
Um It,
it,
it feels liberating,
you know,
just their emotionality feels,
it feels like freedom,
it feels like empowerment,
(15:42):
it feels like,
you know,
I can do this and I want my kids to be able to do this.
Yeah.
No,
absolutely.
It was,
it was,
it,
it felt like a place that was changing and even without a lot of life experience behind me at that point in time,
(16:02):
it was obvious enough that I recognized it and I was like,
wow,
so this is what a catalytic shift looks like in a community.
And that was just so cool.
Right.
It,
it showed me that like,
you know what,
the only real difference between the company that I was visiting and any other company is that they made a choice.
(16:24):
Like they said,
well,
we can choose to empower our people,
we can choose to engage with the community.
We can ask,
how do you need help?
We can offer up thoughtfully,
ways that we can solve local problems in a way that's meaningful for the people that are getting impacted.
Right?
Sometimes when I talk about this or you know,
(16:45):
people are like,
oh my God.
Well,
that sounds like a really big company and like,
you know,
they're,
they're doing all this stuff and it was a big investment and the government was behind it and all the stuff.
And I'm like,
yeah,
but notice I'm not talking about how much money they threw around.
I was talking about how they treated people and the choices that they made.
And I argue and I work with clients any size company.
(17:09):
I don't care how small you are.
You can be a solo preneurs and you can have the same level of intention in terms of how you want to engage and how you want to show up in your business.
Right.
So I try to get it away.
It's not about size mindset.
So you took that,
that sort of blueprint moment,
packed it up in your little suitcase and took it back to Wall Street for a bit.
(17:32):
I got,
yeah,
I mean,
this is getting a little finance nerdy but like,
I,
I really got involved and where I spent the majority of my career on Wall Street was this type of financial technology called project finance,
which is helping companies make discrete investments um in infrastructure.
Right.
(17:52):
So a lot of times that would look like power plants,
pipelines,
hospitals,
roads,
I worked on stadiums and arenas for a little bit.
Right.
And what's cool about it is,
it's kind of like these things are like little micro,
they're like kind of sometimes they're big,
sometimes they're not so big,
but like they're,
they're kind of these standalone things that have to plan out how they want to show up.
(18:15):
They have to get community support.
They may be affiliated with a larger company,
but really they're intended to kind of stand alone,
right?
And so I spent a lot of time in that space really seeing how companies in a very self contained way,
make decisions about how they want to get financed,
how they're gonna make money,
what their strategy is gonna be,
how are they managing their risks?
(18:35):
How are they dealing with their local stakeholders?
And so it was kind of a thread that went all the way through my career.
I liked being in that bricks and mortar space and it was,
wasn't always sexy to be on Wall Street in some of these areas because they're like,
oh,
wow,
you're going to a power plant.
Like,
how good for you.
Like people like,
that's so boring.
Right?
But for me,
it was cool because I'm like,
(18:56):
no,
no,
this is the kind of stuff that actually keeps the lights on like our lives.
Stop our,
you know,
our communities don't develop with this stuff.
Like we have to do it in a way that kind of makes sense.
So I,
you know,
I think it's very interesting because ii I feel like at some point you were able to take all of that,
(19:17):
all of that from that,
all of those experiences and then take a,
an avenue that really led you to deal with people one on one.
You know,
it's interesting.
So I talk about intention and I had like,
in retrospect,
people were like,
wow,
that was the coolest job you had with the government.
Why did you leave?
Well,
part of it was my curiosity to see how businesses actually worked on the inside.
(19:41):
But I made that change with my own intention and that intention was very specifically like I'm doing this.
So that I can learn and I can be a better evangelist for better business.
And I kind of made a promise to myself that I was gonna go back and I was gonna give back to my community when at the time that it made sense to do so.
(20:01):
And,
you know,
it ended up,
I,
I had like a 20 year career on Wall Street,
which was way longer than I thought I was like five years and done.
Right.
You know,
I'm also a career coach so I can talk to people out there all the time about like,
how you get trapped in a career that kind of takes on a life of its own.
I get that too.
Um But there,
there came a point where I had a realization where I'm like,
(20:24):
you know,
what this profession,
like,
I'm not living my values because I'm not honoring that commitment I made to myself.
And so my,
my business and opening my,
you know,
putting out a shingle and taking that risk as an entrepreneur was something I did because I was like,
this was on your bucket list to move the needle.
And that's what you need to be doing right now because you've spent enough time in the Wall Street thing and you,
(20:46):
you've got the information,
you know how it's done.
Now take it out.
Sometimes people ask me like,
gosh,
you've got this big corporate background on executive positions in big banks.
And stuff like,
um why aren't you working with like fortune 500 companies?
You could do that.
And my answer is simple.
It's like I can't have as much of an impact there.
Like the guy on Main Street is the one that we interact with day to day and impacts our life the most.
(21:13):
You know,
you want to think about Google and Amazon and those guys as having like,
you know,
kind of disruptors in our economy.
But small businesses employ most of us.
They're most of the stores that we interact with.
They are the engines of opportunities when people decide they want to live their best lives.
That's how that manifests.
(21:34):
And that's where I can make a difference because you don't have all of that structure,
you don't have,
you have,
I'm working with decision makers that can say right now,
this is the impact I want to have and this is how I want it to look and help me get there.
And that's what I do and,
and it's super powerful really.
And I know that's something we're gonna talk a lot about on this podcast is,
is what that journey looks like for a business owner.
(21:56):
What that journey looks like for uh any executive who is,
you know,
saying I want to be more intentional,
I want to have um I want to have the right impact on my community on this world.
Um I think we're all sort of in this,
in this window of opportunity where we're looking at those things in a different way,
especially those of us who are,
(22:17):
you know,
of a certain age.
And we're,
you know,
we've,
we've been around the block a few times and we're like,
man,
the next year I go around the block.
I want it to be better and I wanna leave a better uh footprint.
You know,
it's so funny,
like in my group of friends and,
and colleagues who talk about,
you know,
those of us of a certain age,
like,
you know,
they used to make movies about midlife crises and stuff.
(22:40):
But like,
I think the way that actually manifests in the world is people start asking at a certain point in their life,
existential questions about why am I here and that it's all part of it,
right?
Like so I can work with individuals or I can work with companies,
but it's really about what is your purpose?
(23:00):
What do you want to bring?
Like when you look back on it all,
what do you want to say your legacy was and you accomplished?
How did you move the needle on the things that are important to you?
It took me so long to figure out what fulfillment actually means and looks like and really it's,
it's kind of basic,
it's living your values.
(23:21):
That's it.
Are you aligning what you are doing with your values?
I don't make judgments with my clients about what values that they hold and what they want to see.
Right.
It's really about helping them identify the impact that they want and how to use their business as an extension of that in a way that's organic,
in a way that's profitable,
(23:42):
in a way that's meaningful for all of their stakeholders.
It's not just about the owner,
but it's about the employees,
it's about the customers,
it's about the communities and like asking those questions like,
where's the win,
win,
win here?
And you know,
people come at that.
Sometimes it starts off like,
hey,
(24:02):
I just,
you know,
we're not profitable or I need more cash flow and it's very often where it starts,
it's totally ok not to swing for the big impact on day one.
Like you've got to get your own house in order like you are running a business,
it needs to be profitable,
it needs to be sustainable,
right?
And so that's ok if it,
(24:22):
if,
if the plan is work on the business first,
get it to a place where you can create space for yourself to really do that visioning work,
right?
What often I find is that one of the strategies to get to that place where your business is sustainable and thriving and profitable is doing zero cost or low cost things that are engaging.
(24:45):
And so it's win,
win because you start to explore ways that you can kind of have an impact and align your work with your values.
And suddenly you start seeing how your commitment to that comes back to your business in a really meaningful way.
And I mean,
honestly,
one of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast in the first place was to kind of explore that and talk to people that absolutely started businesses on the back of what they wanted to see change in the world.
(25:17):
Yeah,
it's awesome.
It is awesome.
And there are so many people who are doing that and I'm excited to get their stories on,
on this podcast too.
I think it's gonna be,
it's gonna be amazing to hear that because once we take out company name title,
we take out all those things and we look at what are the decisions we're making?
What are the intentions that we have?
(25:38):
We're all on the same level.
Yeah,
I know.
I mean,
it's so funny when you say decision making.
So like for me,
like,
it kind of kind of comes back to the name of the podcast and the name of my company,
which is discerning strategies,
right?
Like when you're talking about decision making,
discerning is about that word literally means bringing keen in sight and judgment to a to a topic.
(26:01):
The way I experience that word,
what it means for me is making a better decision,
right?
What is the best decision?
What is the better decision that you can be making and you could be considering.
Are you discerning what the possibilities are and the options are?
But you're right at the end of the day,
we're all just trying to meet fundamental needs as humans.
(26:22):
And that's a lot of my motivation in doing this work too,
which is like putting people and human humanity back into business because so many people I feel like are going through the world right now feeling like they live to serve business versus business,
serving them in their communities.
And like,
I just feel like that script needs to be flipped entirely,
right?
(26:42):
It's not like this Phantom shareholder,
there's nothing wrong with making money.
In fact,
I tell my clients all the time,
you've got to make money to expand your impact.
You have to be profitable.
Like if you're not profitable,
you're not going to be sustaining and you're not gonna be able to have and achieve the impact that you want,
right?
But this idea that this Phantom stockholder,
we don't know who this guy is,
right?
Whoever is kind of controlling all of this wealth and nobody knows what it's for and we're just doing it because the guy says this is what you're supposed to be doing.
(27:11):
And like,
nobody ever really feels the benefit of that.
Like that's not,
that's not the version of business that I believe in.
And,
and you think about the people who are coming in to work for this Phantom person,
you know,
you think about when they come in on Monday and then on Tuesday and then on Wednesday and they're putting all their,
their creativity on the table and they're working hard.
(27:31):
And then at the end of the week,
they might ask themselves the question of,
like,
where is all this going?
Exactly.
Like,
what am I getting out of it?
Right.
Like,
that's a huge thing.
Like,
right now,
the number one thing that I feel like business owners are coming to me with or expressing concern about is like,
I can't hire and retain talent.
(27:53):
Ok.
Well,
what's happened in the world around us?
And this is the market,
this is a market for us people.
So it's not,
you know,
there's no agenda here.
This is what your market is actually telling you is that your wage is no longer the,
the the single thing that people are choosing to evaluate their career or their job with.
(28:15):
There needs to be an entire value proposition around what employment looks like.
So,
you know,
this certainly this is true of millennials and hugely true with Gen Z.
It's like people wanna feel purposeful,
they wanna feel like they're having an impact and meaning in their,
in their jobs,
right?
(28:35):
If you just say,
well,
I'm paying you $17 an hour.
Isn't that enough?
My answer to that is no,
that's why you're not attracting people.
So how do you turn that around?
You engage you,
you partner with organizations that provide meaning for the work you give of your time,
treasure.
And so,
you know,
and talents right um into the community.
(28:56):
And that's a great way of getting people who see that and are like,
I really like what you're doing and because I like what you're doing.
I wanna work with you and I'm,
I'm all in on,
on what you're trying to do both from a business perspective,
as well as out in the community.
And suddenly you have less turnover.
I love how you're doing that in,
in your community,
your local community.
(29:17):
But you're also having such a ripple effect with people all over the place.
It doesn't matter what state they're in,
what community they're in,
when they are looking at their structure and want better results.
You,
you are able to look at that community and say doesn't matter the community,
we can have an impact.
Absolutely.
Like almost all of my clients,
(29:39):
I'm very,
I'm very fortunate,
really are kind of change makers in their own,
right?
Like every single one of them is,
is,
is trying to create a ripple effect on their own.
And so if I can work with that person and they're working with their people and that change,
it just starts cascading,
right?
It just cascades.
So it's super gratifying to know that like I can actually have an outsized impact just by doing what I love what I'm good at in working with the right people and that's kind of simply put,
(30:13):
like,
kind of what I want to help businesses do,
do what's you and authentic and good and profitable for you do it with the right people and see what comes of it and lean into it.
Like,
it's just,
it's really not any more complicated than that.
Right.
Right.
I love the lean in phrase because I never get over it because it's really the thing of,
(30:33):
of we all have to do,
it's find the lane,
you know,
find where the lane is going and let's lean in.
Yeah.
You know,
it's so interesting.
So one of the things about leaning in that going back to my like Gulag story,
right?
Um That was really interesting about this company.
Like I kind of came in and experienced what was happening in this,
(30:58):
in this Russian city a few years after this company had sort of kind of gotten in there and started setting itself up.
So,
like they had a bit of a track record,
it just didn't happen overnight,
right.
But what was really interesting about it was at the time,
the overall environment for that company was starting to turn against them.
(31:19):
You know,
there was a global market that they were part of and that global market was starting to weaken.
What was really interesting about it is they had the awareness to say we're gonna double down on these investments in our community and this impact when like,
yeah,
the bottom line is starting to shrink,
right so often and we just,
(31:39):
we really don't have to look very far.
Um with what I consider to be kind of performative,
you know,
corporate actions where as soon as things get tough.
Oh sorry,
that's no longer in the budget.
We can no longer do it because we're working for Phantom man over here.
That's what it says.
No leaning in means you stay the course.
(32:00):
You don't take your eye off of where you wanna go and the impact you wanna have,
you can change tactics.
You can make a left turn,
you can make a right turn.
You can like go around a lo in loops,
right?
Whatever needs at that point to be done,
do it.
But you can't trade in and out.
Once you start doing this work,
you've got to be in it and companies that are like,
oh yeah,
I think this is a good pr thing people see through it.
(32:22):
It's all about authenticity.
So like I would never counsel any company to lean into their community if they felt like they weren't in it for something that was authentically meaningful that they could explain why it was important and justify staying into it even when times are hard.
And again,
it's not always about money.
You can't be in it just to check a box.
(32:43):
Yeah.
No,
you're right.
People see right through that.
It's,
it's,
yeah,
like inauthenticity is is like the kiss of death because you do it once you are done,
people remember that.
People like,
what's,
what's the quote,
I'm gonna get the quote screwed up.
But it's like,
um,
you know,
people remember how you made them feel,
(33:04):
right.
It's the same thing.
Like you can make them feel good but then if you make them feel really bad because it wasn't authentic and true,
they don't forget that,
that,
that,
I mean,
trust,
you know.
Yeah,
exactly.
That's a,
that's a hard thing to come back from.
I love the trust word because it's so foundational to everything.
(33:25):
It,
it really is.
I mean,
even to simplify it better,
it's like,
how do you as a business owner build trust,
how do you build trust with your employees?
How do you build it with your customers?
How do you build it with their community?
It's like when COVID happens and suddenly,
like,
people are,
like,
go fund me because they don't want to see their local restaurant go out of business.
Like,
that's awesome.
That means you've built trust that you've created a sustaining impact in the area that you are operating in and people don't want to see that go away because it's meaningful to them.
(33:53):
Right.
Um,
so,
yeah,
I love that.
Yeah,
that was interesting.
You bring up COVID because that was a,
that was a very interesting time for the local business.
It was,
it was difficult and,
and awful in so many things.
But,
you know,
you did see pretty clearly pretty immediately what impact that business had on the community because of the community support immediately and it was either there or it wasn't there.
(34:21):
Well,
even more to the point when something that is like,
so disruptive to our lives,
our economies,
the whole world,
I mean,
like,
we've never seen anything like that,
but like being an intentional business for me means minimizing harm.
And sometimes in order to minimize harm,
you have to think creatively and you have to think about like,
(34:41):
how can I create a situation where I'm benefiting?
But my stakeholders are benefiting as well.
And what that fundamentally does is it puts business owners into a really creative space around crafting relationships that really matter and work when they're under stress.
So when you see something like COVID,
these businesses that we're already thinking about,
(35:03):
how can we be,
win,
win around,
you know,
across our operations and in our communities,
we're already so far ahead of being able to actually benefit from that disruption,
right?
If you treat your suppliers really well and you've created a win-win relationship with that supplier,
(35:24):
do you think you're the first one?
They're gonna cut off?
No.
So everyone else is,
their deliveries are being delayed,
costs are going up whatever relationships matter people,
right?
And so that is,
that's actually a direct competitive advantage for your business in these times of huge stress and you're used to thinking about creative solutions to things.
(35:48):
And so when you have to pivot,
you've got your team and people that you already trust to figure out.
OK,
how can we get through this together?
So COVID was like a great litmus test for businesses.
I think I saw it a lot in the nonprofit space too.
You know,
I wanna,
I wanna just shout out our nonprofit leaders out there and the amazing work that they do with few resources and the tremendous amount of creative thinking that they have to do when times are good and bad.
(36:15):
Yes.
Yes.
And the impact that they have and,
and what they do to multiply that impact as much as possible with,
like you said,
uh,
limited finances.
Yeah,
it's amazing.
I'm so looking forward to continuing this conversation.
We have so many things,
of course that we're gonna hit on and so many guests that are gonna be on the podcast and I know that that's one of the greatest goals that you have with this podcast is to make a,
(36:41):
a bigger and better impact.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Like I wanna,
I wanna shout out people that are,
that are trying to move the needle that are being intentional that are making the better choices.
That's what it's all about for me.
And like,
if I can just inspire one person out there to try to make that better choice for their business or for themselves,
(37:01):
I don't know what's gonna happen with that impact,
but the fact that there's a positive impact is just super gratifying to me.
I love that.
That's what gets me up in the morning.
You can find Michael Messer at discerning strategies dot com.
Set up a free 20 minute consultation,
clarify your goals,
scale your business,
(37:22):
amplify your impact,
discerning strategies dot com.
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