January 25, 2024 • 42 mins
Coach Michael Messer is ringing in the New Year by bringing us all to the table for a compelling conversation about understanding the biological and neurological wiring underneath our resistance to change.
LISTEN FOR THIS POWERFUL MOMENT: "You don't have to have a plan that is going to get you all the way to the top of the mountain on day one. What you do need to know is ... what your first step is."
If you have these three elements - you might be ready for change:
Vision - What do you really want?
Is it painful enough right now that you're really motivated to actually do something about it?
Do you know what your first step is?
RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
Shirzad Chamine | Positive Intelligence
Brene' Brown | Atlas of the Heart
LEARN MORE ABOUT THE VOICES IN THIS EPISODE:
Proudly produced by Dee Daniels Media
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
What does growth look like in your business in your life as a business owner,
executive or individual,
you can live and lead with intention to create the change you want to see in your community and the world.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies Podcast,
a place where we can see clearly and act wisely.
(00:32):
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies podcast.
I'm Dee Daniels and I'm excited to sit down with Michael Messer and have a wonderful conversation as we really open the door to a new year and so many people,
if you're listening at the beginning of the year,
you might also be um resonating with this topic that we're gonna talk about.
My.
So I'm excited to have this topic and we really,
(00:55):
it's really all around change and why that's so difficult for so many of us.
It,
it is,
it even brings about a stressful kind of thought process when you even say the word change.
It even sort of gives you kind of this moment of like,
oh,
what do I have to change now?
Well,
you know,
yeah.
So first of all,
Happy New Year to you.
(01:16):
Yes,
you too.
So,
yeah,
it's interesting.
Like,
you know,
we're a couple of weeks into the new Year and I feel like in the first week of the year there's like,
oh,
resolutions and all this stuff and then suddenly you don't hear anything from anybody about it,
like,
ever again.
And I think about it because it's so funny.
(01:37):
I feel like there's so many things they're just going through daily life.
People want change.
I wanna lose weight.
I wanna get fit.
I wanna have better relationships with people.
I want my business to better.
It's like there's all this aspiration surrounding us all the time.
Um But it's so hard for people I think,
to tap into that and figure out how to make those positive changes that they really want for themselves happen.
(02:03):
So I figured,
why don't we have a little conversation around?
What,
how do we get into our own way and like,
how might we be able to contemplate this idea of change uh in a way that's gonna work a little bit better for us?
Absolutely.
I,
I'm very interested in two things too as we start Michael because I'm very interested in your position and your perspective,
(02:24):
uh in two different ways.
I mean,
personally,
you know,
everyone would love to sit down and ask a coach,
how do you deal with change?
Um And then on the second tier is you're,
you're dealing with change every day as far as people that you work with everyone that comes to your doorstep is really seeking some type of change 100%.
(02:50):
Um,
you know,
people that,
that work with coaches typically have some sort of an awareness that there's something that they would like to change.
There's a,
they're feeling like maybe something's not quite working for me or I have an aspiration that I haven't been able to quite give voice to or figure out maybe what the next or first step is towards that and that's what coaches do.
(03:14):
We help peel the onion,
uh,
and figure out kind of what's underneath that,
like get really clear on it and not just get really,
really clear on what you want because sometimes the thing that people say they want isn't the thing they want.
There's,
it's,
it's actually a little bit deeper than that.
Um,
(03:35):
and then to sort of figure out well,
ok,
what's holding you back and what strategies can we come up with to,
to move you purposefully in a direction that's gonna work for you.
And of course,
that's totally different from person to person to person.
There's no one size fits all.
I get really irritated when I see people who label themselves coaches and then something says,
(03:59):
you know,
this is the five step or 10 step process that you need to change your life that really irks me because we're all different people and those,
I guarantee you that that five or 10 steps they work really well,
for the person who's talking about it,
it's not a guarantee that it's gonna work for you.
So,
(04:19):
it's really about figuring out what's gonna work for you.
Um,
the first part of your question is really the more terrifying one,
which is like,
you know,
how do I as a coach,
you know,
deal with change and,
and I'll tell you,
I'm gonna be perfectly honest,
I'm not better at change than anybody that I work with.
Why?
Because here's the thing,
(04:41):
we're all people and the,
and,
and like humans were actually biologically wired and neurologically wired to fear and resist change because it is unsafe for us.
Uh And there's a lot of learned behaviors.
And so,
you know,
one of the things that's been really eye opening as I've,
I've worked as a coach is to really realize,
(05:03):
um that there's so many messages,
there's so many things that we carry with us throughout our day that we're not even fully cognizant of and their ways of habits,
ways of being ways of thinking that were really important to us.
At one point in our life,
it kept us safe.
It gave us a framework for us to make sense of this really confusing world that we were born into as we were learning and,
(05:29):
and kids and,
and just trying to navigate our way.
Well,
those thoughts and feelings that served us at that point in time as we get older and we get more self assured and we have more agency and ability to,
to,
to know what we want and what's right for us are still stuck there and still make it really hard for us to think about different ways of accomplishing things.
(05:54):
And so,
yeah,
I struggle a lot with it,
you know.
Uh,
I always think it's,
it's always easier I think to help someone else with their change than to work on your own.
So,
everything I'm talking about full disclosure,
everybody's listening.
I actually do all this stuff and work on it and struggle with it the same way you do.
There's no magic bullet here.
(06:15):
Hm.
That's powerful because it's true.
I mean,
when you bring it down to the human level,
right?
It's,
it's what we all are,
you know,
faced with every day.
Sometimes we choose not to face it and,
uh,
it comes to bite us and,
and sometimes sometimes we do turn around and face it and it's very interesting and to your point about,
(06:36):
you know,
the cookie cutter,
almost five step process that someone might offer the 10 step process that someone might offer to.
You know,
this is your guaranteed success pathway to change.
You know,
that might play really well.
Um,
to get you to read a blog or,
you know,
to,
you know,
get you to click on an article that you see pop up on Google.
(06:59):
But it,
you know,
when you get to the meat of it,
we're all different and it all,
there,
there is,
there's something that might resonate with us in that method in that list.
But for the most part,
we're not all made the same.
And that's a good thing.
Absolutely.
And I wanna be really clear,
like I'm not,
I'm not trying to cast shade on anybody that,
(07:22):
that's their business model or whatever.
I'm,
I'm not because I use frameworks with my clients.
Um There are things that can be helpful but it's,
it's like,
it's like going to the buffet.
And for me,
it's like,
ok,
here's a framework that works for some people and maybe it has five steps or 10 steps,
(07:43):
maybe there's two or three of these things that make a lot of sense for you.
OK?
So it's not that they're not without value,
but I just,
I guess naturally approach the idea of,
of contemplating and then acting on change to say,
take from the resources that are available to you and adapt them and make them your own and then use them.
(08:08):
And so that process has to assume that that is gonna change.
There's gonna be some evolution in the framework that has to,
otherwise you're not gonna stick with it.
It's not gonna work for you.
It just,
you know,
anyways,
that's,
that's my point of view on that.
I like it.
(08:28):
And,
you know,
I,
I think maybe honing in on,
on one particular group of people,
you know,
I'd love to get your expertise and sort of your,
your thought process and your experience around you.
You've seen a lot of people make big life changes.
You know,
we've talked to people in business and in,
(08:53):
you know,
making a big jump from one job to the next,
from one career to the next,
from one industry to the next,
from profit to,
you know,
nonprofit,
you know,
that sort of thing.
you know,
that is such a huge change and a lot of people might be contemplating that.
Um,
you know,
at the beginning of the year and sort of thinking d does my path look a little different by the end of this year.
(09:18):
And you know,
what,
what would,
what does that entail?
How can I even face that type of change?
Well,
you know,
it's really interesting.
Um,
I think again,
because of all this messaging and this is true both personally and I would say it's for organizations too because if you go into the workplace and there's this collection of people there and then management starts saying,
(09:39):
ok,
now we're gonna change things,
right?
Everyone kind of groans and it's like,
uh why is this happening?
And like,
we have to change our way of thinking and there's this kind of innate resistance to the change often,
often times.
And so whether you're talking about it on a really personal level or even like within teams or within institutions,
(10:02):
there's a few things that you need to understand about this resistance to change.
Ok.
In order for anybody to overcome change or the the fear of change,
I would say the resistance to change,
there's a couple of things that need to be there.
The first is vision,
super important people do not want to change or will not successfully change,
(10:27):
create new habits unless they can really,
really see and understand what the back end of that change looks like.
They have to have a very clear uh sense of what's there for them.
And so,
(10:48):
you know,
it's,
it's,
you sort of have to ask yourself with this change.
Who am I becoming?
Who am I evolving into?
What am I growing towards?
Right?
And if that vision of yourself on the other side of that change isn't compelling,
it's not exciting.
(11:08):
It's not something that is aligned with your values and is really emotionally resonant with you.
You know,
resonant I should say with you,
it's gonna be really hard for you to contemplate making a change.
Ok.
So people that are kind of like,
hey,
I,
I think I wanna make a big life change.
(11:30):
Um is now the time to do it.
The first thing I would say is you need to be very clear about what you want to accomplish and how you wanna be and what that life looks like on the back.
There's a second thing that you need,
which is there needs to be a certain level of dissatisfaction.
(11:50):
Ok.
Something is not working for you.
And I've actually seen this with clients that I've had in the past where they've taken on a coach and they've said I want you to help me to become better.
Well,
things were going great,
you know what I'm saying?
And sometimes it's like,
I love,
don't get me wrong.
(12:10):
I love coaching people that are in a good place because there's so much interesting creative work.
But they're,
they're fundamentally for some of these folks wasn't a,
a real dissatisfaction.
There wasn't one thing that they could point to and say this is the thing that I think I need to change.
And so unless the dissatisfaction,
the pain,
(12:31):
the,
the feeling like something's missing isn't enough.
It's gonna be really hard to overcome again that,
that innate resistance,
we have to make more change.
And then the last thing is sometimes you get people that are super motivated,
they have this vision of this better self for themselves,
(12:52):
this better life,
this better future,
this better career,
this better everything,
they're really suffering,
they hate it.
This was me when I was working in corporate,
I had this vision of what my life could be.
And I really,
really,
every single day I felt like I can't do this anymore.
And it was like kind of painful for me to be in that situation.
(13:16):
But what I didn't have or what a lot of people fail to have is they don't have any idea on what first step to take when people are contemplating a really big change.
Sometimes it seems so insurmountable.
It's so big,
it's so overwhelming.
Well,
here's the trick.
You don't have to have a plan that is gonna get you all the way to the top of the mountain on day one.
(13:42):
What you do need is you need to know what your first step is.
That's it.
Because when you take your first step,
something is moved,
something has changed,
you've changed even,
even if it's just a tiny,
little bit.
And so that second step either will reveal itself or will now be informed by this little change that you've made.
(14:03):
So it's,
it's all about increments,
right?
So three things,
vision,
what do you really want?
Is it painful enough right now that you're really motivated to actually do something about it?
And do you know what your first step is if you have all three of those things?
And I would say you are ready to make the change that you wanna make.
(14:25):
If one of those things is absent,
it's gonna be much harder for you.
I love those steps.
Um I wrote all of them down.
So I know,
uh you know,
I th those just,
I mean,
those make sense,
you know,
when you're talking about resistance to change,
I'm glad you put it that way because a lot of people you know,
(14:47):
might mildly say,
you know,
I really don't like change who does.
But then I think if you get really honest about it,
you realize there is a resistance to it.
And I'm curious what you think are like,
if we,
if we put the magnifying glass on that big block of resistance,
(15:09):
what does that look like inside?
What are the things there if we were to break it down and look at it,
what,
what are the pieces of,
of the resistance that we might be able to recognize within ourselves and then address it?
Yeah,
I,
I always say that impact starts with you,
which means kind of the extension of that is that the thing that's probably holding you back is also you and,
(15:37):
and it's me,
it's all of us.
This is not,
you know,
I'm not shaking a finger at anybody because boy,
am I in that category two.
We have a lot of self limiting thoughts.
We have a lot of,
I in my practice,
I call them saboteurs um that hijack the conversation in our head.
(16:05):
Sometimes we're not even aware of it.
We're so used to this pattern of thinking that it's just obvious things are black and white.
Well,
of course,
it has to be this way,
I have to be this way,
this is how I'm successful because right,
and the first step really is to generate,
you know,
create some awareness as to what those voices in your head might actually be telling you.
(16:31):
There's one that we all have one.
Well,
we have,
there's actually,
so there's 10 saboteurs.
Uh,
and this is based on,
on,
on the work of,
um,
uh Shirzad Shamin who wrote a book called Positive Intelligence.
Um,
I am a positive intelligence coach,
so I've done a fair amount of,
of work and research in this area myself.
(16:53):
And what he did is he went and he studied hundreds of thousands of people across cultures,
uh geographies,
language,
you name it.
And he,
and what he found is that we all struggle with basically 10 archetypes of kind of mental limitations that we put on ourselves.
(17:15):
These again kind of develop out of childhood.
Uh And they're there for a reason.
They kept us safe.
They kept things controllable in our,
in our world.
The first one is the judge.
We all have the judge.
This is the voice in your head that is telling you that you're not good enough.
It's the voice in your head that's telling you the person sitting across the table from you or the coworker or your spouse or your kid isn't good enough.
(17:43):
It's the voice in your head that's telling you that your circumstances aren't good enough.
There is something wrong.
It is a super powerful voice that every person on this planet struggles with.
And if somebody tells you they don't struggle with it.
No,
I'm gonna have to call that,
you know,
call that out.
Right?
And so that judge is always there.
(18:04):
Um There's about nine other types ways that we get in our way.
So I'll tell you,
I'll just be super transparent.
What mine are.
My top three saboteurs are a stickler,
uh otherwise known as the perfectionist.
So everybody out there raise your hand.
If you're a perfectionist,
(18:25):
like I can't possibly do this or I can't possibly get done or move forward until I have crafted this thing of beauty and perfection,
right?
So perfection is the evil of good.
That is the stickler.
I personally struggle with uh another voice called the hyper achiever.
(18:46):
I have to always be the best.
I've got to push it.
I've got,
I've got to knock it out of the park.
And so if every time I step up to bat,
you know,
if I only had a double that is failure because I was going for the home run,
I've got to be the MVP.
And then the other one that I really like it's,
(19:07):
and,
and,
and you can kind of see how they combine together.
Uh The other one I struggle with is the pleaser trying to earn somebody's,
you know,
affirmation.
Um So,
you know,
that's my journey,
other people will,
will suffer from other things.
But in this very long winded answer,
what I would say is those are the kinds of things that when you think about making a change,
(19:32):
you can start planning in,
in,
in,
in,
in exercising your mindset to turn the voice,
the volume down on those voices so that you can get some clarity on what exactly it is that you want and how you might go about it.
So again,
(19:52):
it's the vision,
it's the first step and partly by turning down the volume on those voices,
you are in effect kind of addressing some of the pain that might be associated with this idea of change as well.
I saw some hands go up uh during your mentioning of of certain voices by the way.
(20:15):
So mine went up halfway.
I was like,
wait,
no,
I'm not,
I'm not a perfectionist and all the thing.
And then I'm like,
so that doesn't make me a perfectionist if I'm not a perfectionist all the way around.
And I'm like,
wait,
there are these levels where I am a perfectionist.
So,
you know,
I hear this voice in certain areas.
I totally get that you might not wanna wear that label and be like,
(20:38):
yeah,
that's the voice that's always talking to me,
but maybe it's only talking to you in certain sections and certain areas and it's,
it's resistant in those areas and causing you not to have the growth that you wanna have.
Oh yeah,
I mean,
when I do savage work with clients,
it's really about being really aware.
(20:59):
When is this voice showing up for you?
What triggered that?
Because if you're not even aware that the voice is talking to you or talking through your mouth.
It's really hard to make a choice about how do you want to be different?
Right.
What else do you wanna do?
So,
yeah,
it's,
and that's work.
It,
it,
it's not something that happens overnight but,
uh,
with a little bit of awareness you start understanding and seeing and calling it out and then you get to the point when you do it long enough where you're,
(21:27):
where you can kind of actually have fun with it and be like,
oh,
that's my stickler talking or?
Wow,
my judge just got really loud or hyper achiever,
sit on down,
you know what I mean?
It's like uh but you,
you need to start being aware of,
of,
of when,
when they start showing up the loudest,
(21:49):
oh,
that's,
that's a therapy session right there in itself like,
you know,
the,
when the little kid shows up,
you know,
and you're,
you're like,
that's my nine year old and that's,
you know,
to be able to,
to be aware of these things when they do these uh characters in that are part of you uh that come up,
you know,
to be able to,
(22:09):
to name them and see them and that's a,
that's a whole thing.
Yeah,
I wanna be careful to say definitely,
I am not a therapist,
I'm not,
you know,
so like that is not my thing.
Uh But uh again,
the awareness of,
of what may be happening for you in a specific situation is kind of critical in a coaching relationship because without the awareness you can't move forward and it's all about how do you get moving forward?
(22:39):
Hm.
That's so good.
You know,
and I'm thinking too,
we were talking about a lot of folks that might,
you know,
have this new vision for the New Year and maybe they've changed their new five year plan in this year.
Maybe that's been like,
OK,
I've got a new,
you know,
I've got a whole new vision that I want this my business to look like that.
(23:02):
I want,
you know,
I want the employees that work for me and with me,
I want,
I want the whole thing to change.
Do you think the fear of change is an element?
Is there um something that says,
you know,
hey,
I recognize I'm actually,
I'm scared of this,
(23:22):
I'm scared of,
of this movement.
I'm scared of,
of what this looks like on the other side and how to deal with that.
Yeah,
I mean fear at the end of the day.
So again,
going back to the saboteurs,
like one of the easy ways that you can tell your saboteurs are influencing you in the moment is to just kind of almost be aware of the emotion you're feeling.
(23:44):
So if you're feeling fear,
stress or anxiety,
those are the big three,
those emotions are entirely generated by these savage voices,
one of them,
whatever one you're struggling with.
Right?
Or a combination of them.
Ok.
So,
you know,
what are they trying to do?
It's like reversion to the me.
(24:06):
So,
if you take a really big step outside of your comfort zone,
that's terrifying.
I've never done this thing.
I don't know how it's gonna go.
Am I safe?
Right.
Those voices are there to try to pull you back into your comfort zone because that's what,
you know,
now it may be that you feel like crap when you're in your comfort zone,
like it's not feeling good like you're in the soup stewing in like a toxic workplace or,
(24:29):
you know,
an unhappy relationship or whatever.
So,
the fact that you're in your comfortable place doesn't mean it's easy doesn't mean it feels good,
but that's what they're trying to do because it's something that you have said is safe and I understand,
ok,
that's what the fear is.
So,
how do you get past it?
(24:50):
Well,
first of all,
recognize it and then you gotta get out of your own head because I never wanna,
I,
I don't want to ever make light of the fact that this is,
it's,
this is an easy stuff.
It's like you can't just,
it's like,
will yourself to do it because,
you know,
I'm,
you know,
51 years old and I'd have 51 years of,
(25:10):
of,
of neural habits and mental habits that I that you have to unwind and that just doesn't happen overnight.
What you can do is take a minute and kind of physically ground yourself really powerful stuff.
Uh You don't need to like go into a meditation chamber.
You don't need to chant,
(25:30):
you don't need to do any kind of new agey stuff to do it.
But really,
it's just like you can pause and then just take a few deep breaths if you're in a meeting with somebody and they're getting kind of,
they're causing you to have these anxious feelings about yourself.
You can,
you can focus on just hearing,
(25:52):
listening to what they're saying,
like just really listen,
what's around you,
right?
And it doesn't have to be weird.
They don't even have to know you're doing it or like take your,
your eyes and really focus on seeing them,
seeing their face,
right?
Like just what it's doing is it's taking you out of your head and it's connecting you to a sense of some sort in your body.
(26:14):
And what studies have shown in mindfulness studies and all of the things is that act of physically grounding yourself moves and turns the volume down on those,
on those voices so that you can get a little bit of clarity of thought.
Hm.
And that's one way and again,
uh you know,
if you're,
(26:34):
if you're gonna sit down and say,
hey,
I've got a big change that I wanna make.
II I wanna completely change up my career.
Uh And I need to figure that out and I need to sit down to do it.
I would highly recommend to anybody to take a couple of minutes just to do something to center themselves.
So people laugh about,
go out and touch grass,
go outside,
(26:55):
sit in the sun,
touch grass,
breathe fresh air,
you know,
just kind of create a little bit of calm for yourself because unless you do that,
trying to engage with whatever topic you're trying to think through in terms of change is gonna be that much harder for you.
Mm.
I love that.
I mean,
(27:16):
listen,
I had a grandfather that took me outside,
you know,
we would touch the tree,
you know,
just a,
just a moment of grounding.
Um,
made all the difference.
All the difference touch is huge.
Like,
you know,
just like taking your fingers and rubbing them together,
like really or like maybe it's your pet.
Like,
(27:36):
I'm really gonna pet my dog right now.
And really?
What's she like petting my dog?
You know,
like whatever it is,
you know,
it's,
again,
it's,
it's,
it's,
it's biology.
This isn't new aging,
weird stuff.
It's just the way we as people are built.
Hm.
I love that.
That reminded me too of uh Brene Brown and her Atlas of the heart book where,
(27:59):
you know,
being able to kind of have this dictionary of like,
thoughts,
feelings,
emotions,
you know,
that you can label and know what they are.
That sounds like the first step of what you're talking about of that awareness piece of like,
OK,
I'm at,
I'm at least aware of what's happening and that,
that really is,
I think one of the ways to sort of take some of the noise out.
(28:24):
Yeah.
You know,
you may not,
you may not have enough fortitude to like fully overcome the voice,
but it depersonalizes it where like,
again,
if you can just laugh and be like,
oh,
this is my judge talking.
Right.
Right.
Sometimes I literally,
you know,
have clients name the saboteurs that show up.
(28:45):
So,
you know,
without using names,
I have one client who um feels really weighed down by the idea of business and,
and uh she named her saboteur around business,
Sam the Eagle because from the Muppet Show and it was like,
because she always felt like Sam the Eagle was gonna say,
(29:06):
you know,
this is business,
you know,
fear,
you know,
and it's just funny,
it's a funny image like just,
you know,
don't take yourself so seriously.
You can be like,
Sam the eagle is talking OK,
great.
It doesn't have to be heavy.
Yes,
no doubt.
Oh,
that's funny.
I,
I think I've got an Oscar the grouch somewhere and I,
(29:26):
I don't know,
I don't,
sometimes I just have to,
you know,
high five him and laugh and move on.
Uh because hey,
you know,
it's it's part of the deal.
Um Yeah,
you know,
in talking about change,
I'd,
I'd love to also talk about another,
another big kind of foundational um,
discussion that we have on this podcast a lot.
(29:47):
Um And that's the change in,
in the vein of impact and how is that different from,
you know,
maybe you're not feeling that dissatisfaction piece that you're talking about.
Maybe you're not feeling that really uncomfort and that pain in order to make a change.
(30:07):
But,
you know,
you wanna make changes in order to be more impactful and have a better impact.
So that is going to involve change,
but you're not necessarily feeling like,
oh there's a whole bunch of things wrong.
I just,
I wanna do something different.
I wanna,
I wanna be different.
I wanna do something different.
Yeah.
So again,
(30:28):
if you're able to tap into that motivation,
you know,
the first thing I would ask is like,
you know,
what's important about that?
Like,
what's important about that change and like keeping,
keeping your eyes uh really on,
on what that future looks like,
you know,
um I could kind of laugh and say,
you know,
you have to be a little bit of a futurist uh about yourself because if there's something that you want to,
(30:52):
if there's a,
a more impactful version of you that needs to come into the world,
then I challenge people to say,
OK,
you wanna create change in this specific area because it's really,
you're really passionate about that.
Um What do you need to become the person that can do that thing?
(31:17):
Like what,
what is that person able to do to create change?
Is it being really good at pulling groups together and leading?
Is it taking really difficult ideas or challenging things and making them accessible so that people can join a movement to create change?
(31:42):
Is it being really kind?
And because it's small and you want everybody to feel seen and heard right?
In your business or your community service or whatever,
like what is that?
What is the essence of that person need to be?
(32:02):
Now,
you've got something that you can tangibly say to yourself?
OK,
if I'm gonna create change on the scale that I envisioned for myself,
what steps for steps,
right?
Do I now need to take to move towards that vision of myself?
And I,
you know,
I I'm in the middle of rereading uh Atomic Habits by James Clare,
(32:23):
which is a brilliant book.
I'm sure zillions of people have,
have read this book already.
But he makes a point that I think is so so interesting.
And he says,
you know,
our,
our habits are what embody our identity and what he means by.
That is every little thing that we do is a vote for the person we are becoming OK.
(32:55):
So you,
you can,
you can almost use this to say,
you know,
if I am going to be a more impactful person that it is going to lead with compassion,
for example.
And you have a decision to make or you have a habit to make,
you can ask yourself,
does engaging in this behavior activity right now,
move me closer or farther away from that person.
(33:17):
It gives you a bit of a compass right there.
And I that was really impactful for me to think about it because it's like,
you know,
you don't need to be 100% consistent.
You know,
if you think about,
you know,
he makes the point,
you know,
in an election,
the candidate wins,
that gets 51% of the vote,
right?
So that doesn't mean that like every single action habit or,
(33:38):
you know,
behavior that you have has to be entirely consistent with the,
the vision of the person that you,
you would come.
But the majority of those habits do because you're voting on that future,
you,
every time you choose to engage in a decision habit or that she take,
I thought that was pretty cool.
Yeah,
it's,
(33:59):
it's pretty powerful and it really almost to me curious if it,
if it does the same for you,
it almost at the beginning of that conversation separates you.
The you right now from the you that you're envisioning that has a bigger impact and that almost takes a little bit of pressure off where you're like,
if you're explaining and describing what that person looks like,
(34:22):
then you can almost,
almost sort of list out and,
and,
and sort of see the characteristics of that person a little bit easier because you're not saying,
ok,
what do I gotta change within me to become that person?
It's almost a,
a little bit of,
uh,
you know,
not so pressurized,
kind of a,
of conversation.
(34:44):
Yeah,
we all have role models,
right.
And it's like,
it's,
you,
you're inviting yourself to make the future you the role model for who you wanna be today.
Like that's how you bring it back to the present,
right?
Totally.
Totally.
So,
uh you know,
and here's the thing,
I mean,
that future version of you that will change over time because you start,
(35:07):
you know,
it's like I said earlier,
like you take a step and then you change and things change your perspective changes.
And so you may not actually ever become that future vision of yourself,
but you're moving purposefully towards something and every time as you grow and evolve,
you get to make a choice.
You can say,
yeah,
that's still the person I wanna be.
(35:28):
And I'm gonna take the next step in that direction.
You might have a moment of awareness to say actually that that person I'm realizing now needs something different that I,
I didn't have access to before,
but now I know this person needs this.
So I'm gonna,
I'm gonna take a step to the left or the right you get to change,
but you're being purposeful and impactful and the thing is every time you take that little step,
(35:49):
right.
What are you actually doing?
You're actually creating impact,
you're creating impact in your own life and it,
it's giving you the ability to impact the lives of other people as you focus on this thing that you want to bring into the world.
Right.
Yeah.
You know,
and I,
I'm curious as we sort of move along the line,
(36:10):
you know,
we're talking about folks that might have this idea of I want to change and I want to make this change and whatever that might be when you're working with your clients,
Michael,
do you find along the way of change?
There's also this like evolving process,
100% al always.
(36:32):
Um The thing is one of the things that we're doing right now,
which isn't exactly correct I think is we're kind of uh making a distinction between periods in which you are changing and periods in which you are not changing.
And the reality is things are changing all the time.
(36:52):
We're changing all the time or circumstances.
The world around us is changing all the time.
Like everything in life is just about change,
right?
So it makes sense to me that uh the only thing that really shouldn't change in your journey is what your values are because that's the compass that keeps you going and keeps you going in a direction that is going to ultimately fulfill and serve you.
(37:17):
And so you need to keep the end in mind.
But again,
the tactics on how to get there can change 100 and 52 different times.
And so,
um I don't think that we need to stress ourselves out about the route we take,
but it really is,
is about the intention that we bring.
And if that intention shifts,
as long as it's a value aligned with our values,
(37:38):
right,
then,
you know,
so be it,
we learn.
But there are ways that we can do this.
Like the thing is like this is,
there's,
it's concrete,
like,
I think we've been talking about like something that's like really kind of up in the air.
But,
you know,
I think what you're asking is a slightly different question which is like,
how can you,
how,
(37:59):
how can you be certain of your vision as you continue this,
this path,
right?
That's a little bit of what I'm hearing.
Yeah.
OK.
Well,
there's this question,
there's like things that you can ask yourself.
Um And you need to,
you need to kind of,
you know,
be open to these questions kind of taking you in really interesting and different paths,
(38:19):
right?
Like,
well,
first of all,
what is it you want to achieve?
What are you trying to get?
What's your best guess on what that thing looks like?
Who is that future?
You,
when do you want to get there,
right?
Like the future,
you doesn't have to be,
you know,
the day before you,
you know,
kick the bucket like it,
(38:39):
it can be,
it can be next month,
it can be a year from now,
right?
Um The question that I love to ask people and I don't think people spend enough time thinking about,
which is how do you wanna feel as you're undergoing this change?
You get to choose.
It doesn't have to be painful.
(39:00):
Like we have this,
this,
this message in our society,
no pain,
no gain.
Do you mean to tell me that we have to create suffering in ourselves for us to improve?
Do you really believe that suffering is the end?
No,
I don't,
I don't,
I think that there is a way for us to change and to figure out how to do that and to reach our goals that contemplates ease and fun.
(39:27):
That's just me.
And how do you wanna start again?
First steps?
And there's so many questions I have like 100 questions that IA I can ask clients about how to get them really thinking about what that journey might look like for them and how to answer that question of?
OK,
so what step do you wanna take first?
I love that.
And of course,
(39:48):
um you know,
as we have mentioned several books and,
and several uh resources for that,
we'll put all the links for that in the show notes,
um,
and make sure everybody knows how to get to all of the things.
And,
yeah,
I mean,
here's to change,
right?
I feel like New Year brings about almost a motivation inside all of us that says,
(40:12):
yeah,
I am turning a page.
I can,
I can do this,
I can do it.
Brings about a little bit of a,
uh,
a new vision or a desire for that new vision.
Yeah,
I mean,
anybody that's like,
maybe,
you know,
judging themselves on how they're doing in their resolution or just feeling like,
gosh,
I didn't even try this year to try to make the thing happen that I've kind of wanted to do for a while because uh it never works.
(40:37):
The first thing I would suggest is just focus on what is,
what is that dialogue in your head telling you?
Because if you can start changing that in bringing that awareness,
you can go so much further and farther faster than you ever thought.
I mean,
truly.
Um so I've got some tricks on how to help,
(40:58):
help with that if anybody is interested.
But um start,
start with that,
that dialogue first because that's the thing that's causing the fear.
Awesome.
One thing you can do is uh share this episode with someone,
you know,
and go back and listen to previous episodes because if you want to hear some powerful stories of folks that have gone through a big change and you know,
(41:21):
experience that um we've got some great stories,
so just go back a few episodes,
you'll,
you'll hear them and certainly uh be inspired.
I,
I have a feeling well,
Michael Happy New Year.
This is gonna be a great year.
I think good things are headed our way.
I think so.
Awesome.
(41:42):
You can find Michael Messer at discerning strategies.com,
set up a free 20 minute consultation,
clarify your goals,
scale your business,
amplify your impact,
discerning strategies.com.
What does growth look like in your business in your life as a business owner,
executive or individual,
you can live and lead with intention to create the change you want to see in your community and the world.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies Podcast,
a place where we can see clearly and act wisely.
(00:32):
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies podcast.
I'm Dee Daniels and I'm excited to sit down with Michael Messer and have a wonderful conversation as we really open the door to a new year and so many people,
if you're listening at the beginning of the year,
you might also be um resonating with this topic that we're gonna talk about.
My.
So I'm excited to have this topic and we really,
(00:55):
it's really all around change and why that's so difficult for so many of us.
It,
it is,
it even brings about a stressful kind of thought process when you even say the word change.
It even sort of gives you kind of this moment of like,
oh,
what do I have to change now?
Well,
you know,
yeah.
So first of all,
Happy New Year to you.
(01:16):
Yes,
you too.
So,
yeah,
it's interesting.
Like,
you know,
we're a couple of weeks into the new Year and I feel like in the first week of the year there's like,
oh,
resolutions and all this stuff and then suddenly you don't hear anything from anybody about it,
like,
ever again.
And I think about it because it's so funny.
(01:37):
I feel like there's so many things they're just going through daily life.
People want change.
I wanna lose weight.
I wanna get fit.
I wanna have better relationships with people.
I want my business to better.
It's like there's all this aspiration surrounding us all the time.
Um But it's so hard for people I think,
to tap into that and figure out how to make those positive changes that they really want for themselves happen.
(02:03):
So I figured,
why don't we have a little conversation around?
What,
how do we get into our own way and like,
how might we be able to contemplate this idea of change uh in a way that's gonna work a little bit better for us?
Absolutely.
I,
I'm very interested in two things too as we start Michael because I'm very interested in your position and your perspective,
(02:24):
uh in two different ways.
I mean,
personally,
you know,
everyone would love to sit down and ask a coach,
how do you deal with change?
Um And then on the second tier is you're,
you're dealing with change every day as far as people that you work with everyone that comes to your doorstep is really seeking some type of change 100%.
(02:50):
Um,
you know,
people that,
that work with coaches typically have some sort of an awareness that there's something that they would like to change.
There's a,
they're feeling like maybe something's not quite working for me or I have an aspiration that I haven't been able to quite give voice to or figure out maybe what the next or first step is towards that and that's what coaches do.
(03:14):
We help peel the onion,
uh,
and figure out kind of what's underneath that,
like get really clear on it and not just get really,
really clear on what you want because sometimes the thing that people say they want isn't the thing they want.
There's,
it's,
it's actually a little bit deeper than that.
Um,
(03:35):
and then to sort of figure out well,
ok,
what's holding you back and what strategies can we come up with to,
to move you purposefully in a direction that's gonna work for you.
And of course,
that's totally different from person to person to person.
There's no one size fits all.
I get really irritated when I see people who label themselves coaches and then something says,
(03:59):
you know,
this is the five step or 10 step process that you need to change your life that really irks me because we're all different people and those,
I guarantee you that that five or 10 steps they work really well,
for the person who's talking about it,
it's not a guarantee that it's gonna work for you.
So,
(04:19):
it's really about figuring out what's gonna work for you.
Um,
the first part of your question is really the more terrifying one,
which is like,
you know,
how do I as a coach,
you know,
deal with change and,
and I'll tell you,
I'm gonna be perfectly honest,
I'm not better at change than anybody that I work with.
Why?
Because here's the thing,
(04:41):
we're all people and the,
and,
and like humans were actually biologically wired and neurologically wired to fear and resist change because it is unsafe for us.
Uh And there's a lot of learned behaviors.
And so,
you know,
one of the things that's been really eye opening as I've,
I've worked as a coach is to really realize,
(05:03):
um that there's so many messages,
there's so many things that we carry with us throughout our day that we're not even fully cognizant of and their ways of habits,
ways of being ways of thinking that were really important to us.
At one point in our life,
it kept us safe.
It gave us a framework for us to make sense of this really confusing world that we were born into as we were learning and,
(05:29):
and kids and,
and just trying to navigate our way.
Well,
those thoughts and feelings that served us at that point in time as we get older and we get more self assured and we have more agency and ability to,
to,
to know what we want and what's right for us are still stuck there and still make it really hard for us to think about different ways of accomplishing things.
(05:54):
And so,
yeah,
I struggle a lot with it,
you know.
Uh,
I always think it's,
it's always easier I think to help someone else with their change than to work on your own.
So,
everything I'm talking about full disclosure,
everybody's listening.
I actually do all this stuff and work on it and struggle with it the same way you do.
There's no magic bullet here.
(06:15):
Hm.
That's powerful because it's true.
I mean,
when you bring it down to the human level,
right?
It's,
it's what we all are,
you know,
faced with every day.
Sometimes we choose not to face it and,
uh,
it comes to bite us and,
and sometimes sometimes we do turn around and face it and it's very interesting and to your point about,
(06:36):
you know,
the cookie cutter,
almost five step process that someone might offer the 10 step process that someone might offer to.
You know,
this is your guaranteed success pathway to change.
You know,
that might play really well.
Um,
to get you to read a blog or,
you know,
to,
you know,
get you to click on an article that you see pop up on Google.
(06:59):
But it,
you know,
when you get to the meat of it,
we're all different and it all,
there,
there is,
there's something that might resonate with us in that method in that list.
But for the most part,
we're not all made the same.
And that's a good thing.
Absolutely.
And I wanna be really clear,
like I'm not,
I'm not trying to cast shade on anybody that,
(07:22):
that's their business model or whatever.
I'm,
I'm not because I use frameworks with my clients.
Um There are things that can be helpful but it's,
it's like,
it's like going to the buffet.
And for me,
it's like,
ok,
here's a framework that works for some people and maybe it has five steps or 10 steps,
(07:43):
maybe there's two or three of these things that make a lot of sense for you.
OK?
So it's not that they're not without value,
but I just,
I guess naturally approach the idea of,
of contemplating and then acting on change to say,
take from the resources that are available to you and adapt them and make them your own and then use them.
(08:08):
And so that process has to assume that that is gonna change.
There's gonna be some evolution in the framework that has to,
otherwise you're not gonna stick with it.
It's not gonna work for you.
It just,
you know,
anyways,
that's,
that's my point of view on that.
I like it.
(08:28):
And,
you know,
I,
I think maybe honing in on,
on one particular group of people,
you know,
I'd love to get your expertise and sort of your,
your thought process and your experience around you.
You've seen a lot of people make big life changes.
You know,
we've talked to people in business and in,
(08:53):
you know,
making a big jump from one job to the next,
from one career to the next,
from one industry to the next,
from profit to,
you know,
nonprofit,
you know,
that sort of thing.
you know,
that is such a huge change and a lot of people might be contemplating that.
Um,
you know,
at the beginning of the year and sort of thinking d does my path look a little different by the end of this year.
(09:18):
And you know,
what,
what would,
what does that entail?
How can I even face that type of change?
Well,
you know,
it's really interesting.
Um,
I think again,
because of all this messaging and this is true both personally and I would say it's for organizations too because if you go into the workplace and there's this collection of people there and then management starts saying,
(09:39):
ok,
now we're gonna change things,
right?
Everyone kind of groans and it's like,
uh why is this happening?
And like,
we have to change our way of thinking and there's this kind of innate resistance to the change often,
often times.
And so whether you're talking about it on a really personal level or even like within teams or within institutions,
(10:02):
there's a few things that you need to understand about this resistance to change.
Ok.
In order for anybody to overcome change or the the fear of change,
I would say the resistance to change,
there's a couple of things that need to be there.
The first is vision,
super important people do not want to change or will not successfully change,
(10:27):
create new habits unless they can really,
really see and understand what the back end of that change looks like.
They have to have a very clear uh sense of what's there for them.
And so,
(10:48):
you know,
it's,
it's,
you sort of have to ask yourself with this change.
Who am I becoming?
Who am I evolving into?
What am I growing towards?
Right?
And if that vision of yourself on the other side of that change isn't compelling,
it's not exciting.
(11:08):
It's not something that is aligned with your values and is really emotionally resonant with you.
You know,
resonant I should say with you,
it's gonna be really hard for you to contemplate making a change.
Ok.
So people that are kind of like,
hey,
I,
I think I wanna make a big life change.
(11:30):
Um is now the time to do it.
The first thing I would say is you need to be very clear about what you want to accomplish and how you wanna be and what that life looks like on the back.
There's a second thing that you need,
which is there needs to be a certain level of dissatisfaction.
(11:50):
Ok.
Something is not working for you.
And I've actually seen this with clients that I've had in the past where they've taken on a coach and they've said I want you to help me to become better.
Well,
things were going great,
you know what I'm saying?
And sometimes it's like,
I love,
don't get me wrong.
(12:10):
I love coaching people that are in a good place because there's so much interesting creative work.
But they're,
they're fundamentally for some of these folks wasn't a,
a real dissatisfaction.
There wasn't one thing that they could point to and say this is the thing that I think I need to change.
And so unless the dissatisfaction,
the pain,
(12:31):
the,
the feeling like something's missing isn't enough.
It's gonna be really hard to overcome again that,
that innate resistance,
we have to make more change.
And then the last thing is sometimes you get people that are super motivated,
they have this vision of this better self for themselves,
(12:52):
this better life,
this better future,
this better career,
this better everything,
they're really suffering,
they hate it.
This was me when I was working in corporate,
I had this vision of what my life could be.
And I really,
really,
every single day I felt like I can't do this anymore.
And it was like kind of painful for me to be in that situation.
(13:16):
But what I didn't have or what a lot of people fail to have is they don't have any idea on what first step to take when people are contemplating a really big change.
Sometimes it seems so insurmountable.
It's so big,
it's so overwhelming.
Well,
here's the trick.
You don't have to have a plan that is gonna get you all the way to the top of the mountain on day one.
(13:42):
What you do need is you need to know what your first step is.
That's it.
Because when you take your first step,
something is moved,
something has changed,
you've changed even,
even if it's just a tiny,
little bit.
And so that second step either will reveal itself or will now be informed by this little change that you've made.
(14:03):
So it's,
it's all about increments,
right?
So three things,
vision,
what do you really want?
Is it painful enough right now that you're really motivated to actually do something about it?
And do you know what your first step is if you have all three of those things?
And I would say you are ready to make the change that you wanna make.
(14:25):
If one of those things is absent,
it's gonna be much harder for you.
I love those steps.
Um I wrote all of them down.
So I know,
uh you know,
I th those just,
I mean,
those make sense,
you know,
when you're talking about resistance to change,
I'm glad you put it that way because a lot of people you know,
(14:47):
might mildly say,
you know,
I really don't like change who does.
But then I think if you get really honest about it,
you realize there is a resistance to it.
And I'm curious what you think are like,
if we,
if we put the magnifying glass on that big block of resistance,
(15:09):
what does that look like inside?
What are the things there if we were to break it down and look at it,
what,
what are the pieces of,
of the resistance that we might be able to recognize within ourselves and then address it?
Yeah,
I,
I always say that impact starts with you,
which means kind of the extension of that is that the thing that's probably holding you back is also you and,
(15:37):
and it's me,
it's all of us.
This is not,
you know,
I'm not shaking a finger at anybody because boy,
am I in that category two.
We have a lot of self limiting thoughts.
We have a lot of,
I in my practice,
I call them saboteurs um that hijack the conversation in our head.
(16:05):
Sometimes we're not even aware of it.
We're so used to this pattern of thinking that it's just obvious things are black and white.
Well,
of course,
it has to be this way,
I have to be this way,
this is how I'm successful because right,
and the first step really is to generate,
you know,
create some awareness as to what those voices in your head might actually be telling you.
(16:31):
There's one that we all have one.
Well,
we have,
there's actually,
so there's 10 saboteurs.
Uh,
and this is based on,
on,
on the work of,
um,
uh Shirzad Shamin who wrote a book called Positive Intelligence.
Um,
I am a positive intelligence coach,
so I've done a fair amount of,
of work and research in this area myself.
(16:53):
And what he did is he went and he studied hundreds of thousands of people across cultures,
uh geographies,
language,
you name it.
And he,
and what he found is that we all struggle with basically 10 archetypes of kind of mental limitations that we put on ourselves.
(17:15):
These again kind of develop out of childhood.
Uh And they're there for a reason.
They kept us safe.
They kept things controllable in our,
in our world.
The first one is the judge.
We all have the judge.
This is the voice in your head that is telling you that you're not good enough.
It's the voice in your head that's telling you the person sitting across the table from you or the coworker or your spouse or your kid isn't good enough.
(17:43):
It's the voice in your head that's telling you that your circumstances aren't good enough.
There is something wrong.
It is a super powerful voice that every person on this planet struggles with.
And if somebody tells you they don't struggle with it.
No,
I'm gonna have to call that,
you know,
call that out.
Right?
And so that judge is always there.
(18:04):
Um There's about nine other types ways that we get in our way.
So I'll tell you,
I'll just be super transparent.
What mine are.
My top three saboteurs are a stickler,
uh otherwise known as the perfectionist.
So everybody out there raise your hand.
If you're a perfectionist,
(18:25):
like I can't possibly do this or I can't possibly get done or move forward until I have crafted this thing of beauty and perfection,
right?
So perfection is the evil of good.
That is the stickler.
I personally struggle with uh another voice called the hyper achiever.
(18:46):
I have to always be the best.
I've got to push it.
I've got,
I've got to knock it out of the park.
And so if every time I step up to bat,
you know,
if I only had a double that is failure because I was going for the home run,
I've got to be the MVP.
And then the other one that I really like it's,
(19:07):
and,
and,
and you can kind of see how they combine together.
Uh The other one I struggle with is the pleaser trying to earn somebody's,
you know,
affirmation.
Um So,
you know,
that's my journey,
other people will,
will suffer from other things.
But in this very long winded answer,
what I would say is those are the kinds of things that when you think about making a change,
(19:32):
you can start planning in,
in,
in,
in,
in exercising your mindset to turn the voice,
the volume down on those voices so that you can get some clarity on what exactly it is that you want and how you might go about it.
So again,
(19:52):
it's the vision,
it's the first step and partly by turning down the volume on those voices,
you are in effect kind of addressing some of the pain that might be associated with this idea of change as well.
I saw some hands go up uh during your mentioning of of certain voices by the way.
(20:15):
So mine went up halfway.
I was like,
wait,
no,
I'm not,
I'm not a perfectionist and all the thing.
And then I'm like,
so that doesn't make me a perfectionist if I'm not a perfectionist all the way around.
And I'm like,
wait,
there are these levels where I am a perfectionist.
So,
you know,
I hear this voice in certain areas.
I totally get that you might not wanna wear that label and be like,
(20:38):
yeah,
that's the voice that's always talking to me,
but maybe it's only talking to you in certain sections and certain areas and it's,
it's resistant in those areas and causing you not to have the growth that you wanna have.
Oh yeah,
I mean,
when I do savage work with clients,
it's really about being really aware.
(20:59):
When is this voice showing up for you?
What triggered that?
Because if you're not even aware that the voice is talking to you or talking through your mouth.
It's really hard to make a choice about how do you want to be different?
Right.
What else do you wanna do?
So,
yeah,
it's,
and that's work.
It,
it,
it's not something that happens overnight but,
uh,
with a little bit of awareness you start understanding and seeing and calling it out and then you get to the point when you do it long enough where you're,
(21:27):
where you can kind of actually have fun with it and be like,
oh,
that's my stickler talking or?
Wow,
my judge just got really loud or hyper achiever,
sit on down,
you know what I mean?
It's like uh but you,
you need to start being aware of,
of,
of when,
when they start showing up the loudest,
(21:49):
oh,
that's,
that's a therapy session right there in itself like,
you know,
the,
when the little kid shows up,
you know,
and you're,
you're like,
that's my nine year old and that's,
you know,
to be able to,
to be aware of these things when they do these uh characters in that are part of you uh that come up,
you know,
to be able to,
(22:09):
to name them and see them and that's a,
that's a whole thing.
Yeah,
I wanna be careful to say definitely,
I am not a therapist,
I'm not,
you know,
so like that is not my thing.
Uh But uh again,
the awareness of,
of what may be happening for you in a specific situation is kind of critical in a coaching relationship because without the awareness you can't move forward and it's all about how do you get moving forward?
(22:39):
Hm.
That's so good.
You know,
and I'm thinking too,
we were talking about a lot of folks that might,
you know,
have this new vision for the New Year and maybe they've changed their new five year plan in this year.
Maybe that's been like,
OK,
I've got a new,
you know,
I've got a whole new vision that I want this my business to look like that.
(23:02):
I want,
you know,
I want the employees that work for me and with me,
I want,
I want the whole thing to change.
Do you think the fear of change is an element?
Is there um something that says,
you know,
hey,
I recognize I'm actually,
I'm scared of this,
(23:22):
I'm scared of,
of this movement.
I'm scared of,
of what this looks like on the other side and how to deal with that.
Yeah,
I mean fear at the end of the day.
So again,
going back to the saboteurs,
like one of the easy ways that you can tell your saboteurs are influencing you in the moment is to just kind of almost be aware of the emotion you're feeling.
(23:44):
So if you're feeling fear,
stress or anxiety,
those are the big three,
those emotions are entirely generated by these savage voices,
one of them,
whatever one you're struggling with.
Right?
Or a combination of them.
Ok.
So,
you know,
what are they trying to do?
It's like reversion to the me.
(24:06):
So,
if you take a really big step outside of your comfort zone,
that's terrifying.
I've never done this thing.
I don't know how it's gonna go.
Am I safe?
Right.
Those voices are there to try to pull you back into your comfort zone because that's what,
you know,
now it may be that you feel like crap when you're in your comfort zone,
like it's not feeling good like you're in the soup stewing in like a toxic workplace or,
(24:29):
you know,
an unhappy relationship or whatever.
So,
the fact that you're in your comfortable place doesn't mean it's easy doesn't mean it feels good,
but that's what they're trying to do because it's something that you have said is safe and I understand,
ok,
that's what the fear is.
So,
how do you get past it?
(24:50):
Well,
first of all,
recognize it and then you gotta get out of your own head because I never wanna,
I,
I don't want to ever make light of the fact that this is,
it's,
this is an easy stuff.
It's like you can't just,
it's like,
will yourself to do it because,
you know,
I'm,
you know,
51 years old and I'd have 51 years of,
(25:10):
of,
of neural habits and mental habits that I that you have to unwind and that just doesn't happen overnight.
What you can do is take a minute and kind of physically ground yourself really powerful stuff.
Uh You don't need to like go into a meditation chamber.
You don't need to chant,
(25:30):
you don't need to do any kind of new agey stuff to do it.
But really,
it's just like you can pause and then just take a few deep breaths if you're in a meeting with somebody and they're getting kind of,
they're causing you to have these anxious feelings about yourself.
You can,
you can focus on just hearing,
(25:52):
listening to what they're saying,
like just really listen,
what's around you,
right?
And it doesn't have to be weird.
They don't even have to know you're doing it or like take your,
your eyes and really focus on seeing them,
seeing their face,
right?
Like just what it's doing is it's taking you out of your head and it's connecting you to a sense of some sort in your body.
(26:14):
And what studies have shown in mindfulness studies and all of the things is that act of physically grounding yourself moves and turns the volume down on those,
on those voices so that you can get a little bit of clarity of thought.
Hm.
And that's one way and again,
uh you know,
if you're,
(26:34):
if you're gonna sit down and say,
hey,
I've got a big change that I wanna make.
II I wanna completely change up my career.
Uh And I need to figure that out and I need to sit down to do it.
I would highly recommend to anybody to take a couple of minutes just to do something to center themselves.
So people laugh about,
go out and touch grass,
go outside,
(26:55):
sit in the sun,
touch grass,
breathe fresh air,
you know,
just kind of create a little bit of calm for yourself because unless you do that,
trying to engage with whatever topic you're trying to think through in terms of change is gonna be that much harder for you.
Mm.
I love that.
I mean,
(27:16):
listen,
I had a grandfather that took me outside,
you know,
we would touch the tree,
you know,
just a,
just a moment of grounding.
Um,
made all the difference.
All the difference touch is huge.
Like,
you know,
just like taking your fingers and rubbing them together,
like really or like maybe it's your pet.
Like,
(27:36):
I'm really gonna pet my dog right now.
And really?
What's she like petting my dog?
You know,
like whatever it is,
you know,
it's,
again,
it's,
it's,
it's,
it's biology.
This isn't new aging,
weird stuff.
It's just the way we as people are built.
Hm.
I love that.
That reminded me too of uh Brene Brown and her Atlas of the heart book where,
(27:59):
you know,
being able to kind of have this dictionary of like,
thoughts,
feelings,
emotions,
you know,
that you can label and know what they are.
That sounds like the first step of what you're talking about of that awareness piece of like,
OK,
I'm at,
I'm at least aware of what's happening and that,
that really is,
I think one of the ways to sort of take some of the noise out.
(28:24):
Yeah.
You know,
you may not,
you may not have enough fortitude to like fully overcome the voice,
but it depersonalizes it where like,
again,
if you can just laugh and be like,
oh,
this is my judge talking.
Right.
Right.
Sometimes I literally,
you know,
have clients name the saboteurs that show up.
(28:45):
So,
you know,
without using names,
I have one client who um feels really weighed down by the idea of business and,
and uh she named her saboteur around business,
Sam the Eagle because from the Muppet Show and it was like,
because she always felt like Sam the Eagle was gonna say,
(29:06):
you know,
this is business,
you know,
fear,
you know,
and it's just funny,
it's a funny image like just,
you know,
don't take yourself so seriously.
You can be like,
Sam the eagle is talking OK,
great.
It doesn't have to be heavy.
Yes,
no doubt.
Oh,
that's funny.
I,
I think I've got an Oscar the grouch somewhere and I,
(29:26):
I don't know,
I don't,
sometimes I just have to,
you know,
high five him and laugh and move on.
Uh because hey,
you know,
it's it's part of the deal.
Um Yeah,
you know,
in talking about change,
I'd,
I'd love to also talk about another,
another big kind of foundational um,
discussion that we have on this podcast a lot.
(29:47):
Um And that's the change in,
in the vein of impact and how is that different from,
you know,
maybe you're not feeling that dissatisfaction piece that you're talking about.
Maybe you're not feeling that really uncomfort and that pain in order to make a change.
(30:07):
But,
you know,
you wanna make changes in order to be more impactful and have a better impact.
So that is going to involve change,
but you're not necessarily feeling like,
oh there's a whole bunch of things wrong.
I just,
I wanna do something different.
I wanna,
I wanna be different.
I wanna do something different.
Yeah.
So again,
(30:28):
if you're able to tap into that motivation,
you know,
the first thing I would ask is like,
you know,
what's important about that?
Like,
what's important about that change and like keeping,
keeping your eyes uh really on,
on what that future looks like,
you know,
um I could kind of laugh and say,
you know,
you have to be a little bit of a futurist uh about yourself because if there's something that you want to,
(30:52):
if there's a,
a more impactful version of you that needs to come into the world,
then I challenge people to say,
OK,
you wanna create change in this specific area because it's really,
you're really passionate about that.
Um What do you need to become the person that can do that thing?
(31:17):
Like what,
what is that person able to do to create change?
Is it being really good at pulling groups together and leading?
Is it taking really difficult ideas or challenging things and making them accessible so that people can join a movement to create change?
(31:42):
Is it being really kind?
And because it's small and you want everybody to feel seen and heard right?
In your business or your community service or whatever,
like what is that?
What is the essence of that person need to be?
(32:02):
Now,
you've got something that you can tangibly say to yourself?
OK,
if I'm gonna create change on the scale that I envisioned for myself,
what steps for steps,
right?
Do I now need to take to move towards that vision of myself?
And I,
you know,
I I'm in the middle of rereading uh Atomic Habits by James Clare,
(32:23):
which is a brilliant book.
I'm sure zillions of people have,
have read this book already.
But he makes a point that I think is so so interesting.
And he says,
you know,
our,
our habits are what embody our identity and what he means by.
That is every little thing that we do is a vote for the person we are becoming OK.
(32:55):
So you,
you can,
you can almost use this to say,
you know,
if I am going to be a more impactful person that it is going to lead with compassion,
for example.
And you have a decision to make or you have a habit to make,
you can ask yourself,
does engaging in this behavior activity right now,
move me closer or farther away from that person.
(33:17):
It gives you a bit of a compass right there.
And I that was really impactful for me to think about it because it's like,
you know,
you don't need to be 100% consistent.
You know,
if you think about,
you know,
he makes the point,
you know,
in an election,
the candidate wins,
that gets 51% of the vote,
right?
So that doesn't mean that like every single action habit or,
(33:38):
you know,
behavior that you have has to be entirely consistent with the,
the vision of the person that you,
you would come.
But the majority of those habits do because you're voting on that future,
you,
every time you choose to engage in a decision habit or that she take,
I thought that was pretty cool.
Yeah,
it's,
(33:59):
it's pretty powerful and it really almost to me curious if it,
if it does the same for you,
it almost at the beginning of that conversation separates you.
The you right now from the you that you're envisioning that has a bigger impact and that almost takes a little bit of pressure off where you're like,
if you're explaining and describing what that person looks like,
(34:22):
then you can almost,
almost sort of list out and,
and,
and sort of see the characteristics of that person a little bit easier because you're not saying,
ok,
what do I gotta change within me to become that person?
It's almost a,
a little bit of,
uh,
you know,
not so pressurized,
kind of a,
of conversation.
(34:44):
Yeah,
we all have role models,
right.
And it's like,
it's,
you,
you're inviting yourself to make the future you the role model for who you wanna be today.
Like that's how you bring it back to the present,
right?
Totally.
Totally.
So,
uh you know,
and here's the thing,
I mean,
that future version of you that will change over time because you start,
(35:07):
you know,
it's like I said earlier,
like you take a step and then you change and things change your perspective changes.
And so you may not actually ever become that future vision of yourself,
but you're moving purposefully towards something and every time as you grow and evolve,
you get to make a choice.
You can say,
yeah,
that's still the person I wanna be.
(35:28):
And I'm gonna take the next step in that direction.
You might have a moment of awareness to say actually that that person I'm realizing now needs something different that I,
I didn't have access to before,
but now I know this person needs this.
So I'm gonna,
I'm gonna take a step to the left or the right you get to change,
but you're being purposeful and impactful and the thing is every time you take that little step,
(35:49):
right.
What are you actually doing?
You're actually creating impact,
you're creating impact in your own life and it,
it's giving you the ability to impact the lives of other people as you focus on this thing that you want to bring into the world.
Right.
Yeah.
You know,
and I,
I'm curious as we sort of move along the line,
(36:10):
you know,
we're talking about folks that might have this idea of I want to change and I want to make this change and whatever that might be when you're working with your clients,
Michael,
do you find along the way of change?
There's also this like evolving process,
100% al always.
(36:32):
Um The thing is one of the things that we're doing right now,
which isn't exactly correct I think is we're kind of uh making a distinction between periods in which you are changing and periods in which you are not changing.
And the reality is things are changing all the time.
(36:52):
We're changing all the time or circumstances.
The world around us is changing all the time.
Like everything in life is just about change,
right?
So it makes sense to me that uh the only thing that really shouldn't change in your journey is what your values are because that's the compass that keeps you going and keeps you going in a direction that is going to ultimately fulfill and serve you.
(37:17):
And so you need to keep the end in mind.
But again,
the tactics on how to get there can change 100 and 52 different times.
And so,
um I don't think that we need to stress ourselves out about the route we take,
but it really is,
is about the intention that we bring.
And if that intention shifts,
as long as it's a value aligned with our values,
(37:38):
right,
then,
you know,
so be it,
we learn.
But there are ways that we can do this.
Like the thing is like this is,
there's,
it's concrete,
like,
I think we've been talking about like something that's like really kind of up in the air.
But,
you know,
I think what you're asking is a slightly different question which is like,
how can you,
how,
(37:59):
how can you be certain of your vision as you continue this,
this path,
right?
That's a little bit of what I'm hearing.
Yeah.
OK.
Well,
there's this question,
there's like things that you can ask yourself.
Um And you need to,
you need to kind of,
you know,
be open to these questions kind of taking you in really interesting and different paths,
(38:19):
right?
Like,
well,
first of all,
what is it you want to achieve?
What are you trying to get?
What's your best guess on what that thing looks like?
Who is that future?
You,
when do you want to get there,
right?
Like the future,
you doesn't have to be,
you know,
the day before you,
you know,
kick the bucket like it,
(38:39):
it can be,
it can be next month,
it can be a year from now,
right?
Um The question that I love to ask people and I don't think people spend enough time thinking about,
which is how do you wanna feel as you're undergoing this change?
You get to choose.
It doesn't have to be painful.
(39:00):
Like we have this,
this,
this message in our society,
no pain,
no gain.
Do you mean to tell me that we have to create suffering in ourselves for us to improve?
Do you really believe that suffering is the end?
No,
I don't,
I don't,
I think that there is a way for us to change and to figure out how to do that and to reach our goals that contemplates ease and fun.
(39:27):
That's just me.
And how do you wanna start again?
First steps?
And there's so many questions I have like 100 questions that IA I can ask clients about how to get them really thinking about what that journey might look like for them and how to answer that question of?
OK,
so what step do you wanna take first?
I love that.
And of course,
(39:48):
um you know,
as we have mentioned several books and,
and several uh resources for that,
we'll put all the links for that in the show notes,
um,
and make sure everybody knows how to get to all of the things.
And,
yeah,
I mean,
here's to change,
right?
I feel like New Year brings about almost a motivation inside all of us that says,
(40:12):
yeah,
I am turning a page.
I can,
I can do this,
I can do it.
Brings about a little bit of a,
uh,
a new vision or a desire for that new vision.
Yeah,
I mean,
anybody that's like,
maybe,
you know,
judging themselves on how they're doing in their resolution or just feeling like,
gosh,
I didn't even try this year to try to make the thing happen that I've kind of wanted to do for a while because uh it never works.
(40:37):
The first thing I would suggest is just focus on what is,
what is that dialogue in your head telling you?
Because if you can start changing that in bringing that awareness,
you can go so much further and farther faster than you ever thought.
I mean,
truly.
Um so I've got some tricks on how to help,
(40:58):
help with that if anybody is interested.
But um start,
start with that,
that dialogue first because that's the thing that's causing the fear.
Awesome.
One thing you can do is uh share this episode with someone,
you know,
and go back and listen to previous episodes because if you want to hear some powerful stories of folks that have gone through a big change and you know,
(41:21):
experience that um we've got some great stories,
so just go back a few episodes,
you'll,
you'll hear them and certainly uh be inspired.
I,
I have a feeling well,
Michael Happy New Year.
This is gonna be a great year.
I think good things are headed our way.
I think so.
Awesome.
(41:42):
You can find Michael Messer at discerning strategies.com,
set up a free 20 minute consultation,
clarify your goals,
scale your business,
amplify your impact,
discerning strategies.com.
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