September 21, 2023 • 46 mins
We're sitting down with Impact and Activist Investor Eric Glass, who is also the founder of Clarion Call Capital, to uncover the path for businesses and individuals looking to find the engines for "good". Eric details his work from Wall Street to Main Street and amplifies the need for attention to specific communities when it comes to investing. He implores us to look inward and ask ourselves - how are we changing the dynamic and uplifting poor and historically disinvested communities?
Learn more about the voices in this episode:
Eric Glass
Michael Messer
Follow Michael on LinkedIn
Producer, Dee Daniels
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
What does growth look like in your business in your life as a business owner,
executive or individual,
you can live and lead with intention to create the change you want to see in your community and the world.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies podcast,
a place where we can see clearly and act wisely.
(00:28):
Welcome everyone to the Discerning Strategies podcast.
I am your host,
Michael Messer and today we are gonna be talking about social impact investing.
I am joined by my friend and colleague,
Eric Glass,
who is the founder of Clarion Call Capital and we're gonna talk a little bit about this crazy thing called Wall Street and how actually it might actually be an engine for good.
(00:52):
Imagine that.
So,
Eric,
how are you doing today?
Good Michael.
Thank you for having me and appreciate the platform.
Yeah.
Any,
any time you're doing really,
really interesting work and I'm curious just to start us off,
what is social impact investing.
Uh So I,
I think um there's a lot of confusion out there in this moment of now politically.
(01:15):
Um There's uh uh a lot of different terms being bandied about.
We have ESG which is stands for uh environmental social governance.
Um We have sustainable investment,
we have socially responsible investment,
we have impact investing.
And so I kind of look at these things as being an evolution.
Um So back in the sixties,
(01:36):
seventies,
um with the environmental movement,
uh non-nuclear proliferation,
even from a social perspective,
the um divestment uh from Apartheid South Africa,
there is sort of this uh socially responsible uh movement,
it's evolved.
And so I consider it to be,
I really do consider this to be an evolution.
And so I sort of liken it to this idea that ESG for or at least from my perspective,
(02:00):
ESG is really sort of like we're emerging from the primordial ooze uh of evolution,
right?
And uh organizations are looking to better mitigate risk from an environmental and social perspective as well as a governance perspective.
They're all sort of interrelated.
Um And uh it's this uh notion that if we can better control and mitigate our risks,
(02:25):
then the quality of our earnings goes goes higher and that should benefit all stakeholders,
but,
but,
but also shareholders uh as being part of stakeholders.
Uh and then as you continue to move out,
uh and you're still on all fours.
Uh but then you sort of,
you know,
raise on 2 ft,
you sort of get to this idea of sustainable investing.
(02:45):
Um And again,
it's just like taking the ESG movement to uh just a more uh heightened level sort of thinking about that,
not just from a defensive,
negative perspective,
but also thinking it from an offensive perspective in terms of,
you know,
picking out uh good,
good companies,
uh good investments that really have their finger on the pulse of uh you know,
(03:08):
uh making products that uh and providing services uh that uh benefit uh community writ large.
Um And then as you kind of,
you're out,
you're on,
you're on your,
you're on your uh two legs and you sort of look down at your hands and you realize that you have opposable thumbs.
Uh that is impact to me that is impact investing.
(03:28):
I know this is kind of corny,
but go,
go with me on this one.
So you have,
you have opposable thumbs uh that's impact investing.
And so for me,
impact investing is specifically solely uh and explicitly investing in underresourced,
excluded,
disinvested communities with the ex,
(03:49):
with,
with the,
with the intent to reduce disparity in the built environment between those that have and those that have not.
And so it is,
it,
it is a sort of as opposed to being defensive,
which I think esg um can,
you know,
generally speaking,
is uh impact investing is more offensive.
(04:10):
And so it's actually speci specifically uh uh picking out communities uh and engaging directly with those communities around what is the sort of infrastructure,
the economic development that they would like to see uh and trying to bring that to fruition.
Wow.
So,
so basically,
if I understand you correctly,
it's like,
yeah,
people started thinking about risk and like,
(04:31):
how can we protect my company?
And they kind of realized like,
hm,
gosh,
we're part of society.
And so maybe we should start thinking about society and protect ourselves against those things and climate change and all that other stuff.
And now what you're saying is we're in this next phase,
which is how can we actually go to the root cause and move the needle?
Is that right?
Yeah,
I think that's uh I,
(04:52):
I think that's an a very good way of summing that up.
In fact,
I wish I had said that myself in,
in,
in,
in such,
in such brief uh in such brief statements.
So I'm so curious,
like,
OK,
so most people probably do not think about when they,
they think about like diminishing social inequities,
(05:16):
racial inequities,
whatever inequities are out there in community levels.
They don't typically think of Wall Street,
you're actually a Wall street guy.
So how does,
how do those,
how do those two things live in the same world?
Explain this to me.
Well,
I,
you make that sound as if I'm some sort of unicorn.
Um And what I would suggest is that um there's a whole gene there,
(05:38):
there's probably AAA generation of us that have uh sort of taken a,
a different perspective on the way in which capital uh has been allocated in the past.
And so,
uh you know,
obviously this comes from my perspective,
yes,
I,
I had a,
a pretty long career in a traditional asset management shop in different phases of that.
So in research analytics and trading and portfolio management,
(06:01):
and I,
I think that there came a time for me,
whereas what I was doing was generally speaking,
was making rich white old men richer.
Um And it wasn't very fulfilling.
And so also let me just take a step back from that like that,
that sort of sounds like it came out of thin air that,
(06:21):
that realization and,
and it really didn't,
um prior to my experience on quote unquote Wall Street.
And I,
I really dislike that notion of Wall Street.
It seems so hegemonic and monolithic and whatever.
But anyway,
um but before that experience,
I helped run a homeless shelter in East Orange,
New Jersey um for numerous years.
(06:43):
And that was my,
you know,
sort,
sort of,
that was my calling at the time,
right?
That was kind of like my North Star,
uh direct,
uh you know,
service,
uh social service,
public service to communities.
Um Again,
at a grassroots level,
I just felt entirely uh secure in that decision and,
(07:07):
and uh really sort of uh energized and sort of,
again,
just sort of had found my,
had,
had,
had found my calling.
Unfortunately,
um There were also these things called life which involved,
uh paying off debt from student loans and other things.
Um And actually,
you know,
what the funny thing is is that I got some really bad advice from,
from my mentors who I,
(07:28):
I love to this day,
you know,
they,
they basically,
and,
and,
and understand that this is,
this is kind of an aside,
but the organization that I was,
that I was a part of was a very small at that time,
it was a $4 million top line revenue.
Um It was,
you know,
very,
very,
a relatively small nonprofit,
doing incredible work,
but there wasn't,
there wasn't really much of a hierarchy.
(07:48):
And so the only place for me to go uh would,
in terms of my own trajectory in that organization would have been to executive director and the executive director at the time.
Uh Glenda Kirkland,
uh one of my uh mentors who again,
love to this day,
uh shout out to Glenda.
Um But uh you know,
she wasn't going anywhere.
In fact,
she was studying for her phd at the time uh in public policy and public administration.
(08:11):
So,
um she wasn't going anywhere and,
and um you know,
between her and another,
a mentor at the time,
Zoltan Kennedy,
who happened to be the um who happened to be the auditor of,
of said shelter.
Uh They sort of convinced me to take the graduate degree that I was,
that I was getting and,
and go to the for profit world so I did that and the moment that I left the,
(08:33):
the,
the moment I left the nonprofit world,
I was itching to get back to the,
the for profit,
uh,
the,
the nonprofit world because I just felt so I just felt like a fish out of water.
But,
you know,
as time goes on you sort of life happens and,
uh,
you stick with something that,
you know,
that you sort of feel like you're good at and uh but it wasn't very fulfilling um at the time.
(08:56):
And then,
um to be honest with you back in 2010,
2011,
I took,
I audited a class at the new school for social research uh with a uh uh uh uh a professor Michelle Kahana who was fresh out of the Clinton global initiatives.
And she,
she taught a class around social entrepreneurship.
And it was through that class,
actually that I audited that I found uh that I found this notion of impact investing.
(09:17):
So in other words,
being able to invest uh for both a financial and environmental and social return.
Ironically,
I failed that class.
Um And it's true,
I just didn't do,
I just didn't want to do the,
I didn't want to do all the assignments.
Um And so I actually failed that class.
Uh but ha ha I think I had the last laugh and,
and I sort of became one of the larger impact investors here in the United States.
(09:39):
Uh but that was like the,
those are the couple of sort of the,
the,
the sort of uh catalysts to the work.
And so,
you know,
it was through these,
through,
through these things that,
you know,
I was,
I was in,
I was,
I was in a traditional asset management firm.
Um but came up with this idea around doing impact investing,
I propped it,
you could imagine back in 2010,
2011,
(10:00):
in,
in asset management,
people are still really trying to keep their head above water.
We had just had the 2008 financial um you know,
uh crisis if you will.
And so people looked at me like I had five heads.
That's OK.
I've most people look at me like I have five heads.
So that,
that,
that really didn't dissuade me.
But um what was really interesting about that?
And part of the origin story is that fast forward,
(10:21):
you know,
I took this class and I,
I and I developed this idea around this investment vehicle fast forward from 2011 to about 2015.
Uh And the organization I worked for uh Bernstein Private Wealth Management Alliance,
Bernstein.
Um they lost,
lost uh a,
a relatively large um legacy client,
(10:42):
asset management client because that client wanted to do uh impact investing.
At least this is the way it was,
it was told,
this is the way the story was told to me.
Um,
and at that moment in time,
my managing director sort of looked at me and sort of said,
you know,
hey,
you've been talking about this for several years.
Um,
you know,
what do you have?
Uh,
maybe,
maybe we should actually take a look at this and maybe,
maybe there's something to be here.
(11:02):
And so,
you know,
that's what I,
it,
it really wasn't that,
you know,
I had a good idea and Wall Street or,
you know,
the powers that be said,
yeah,
let's,
let's run with this great idea.
It was more just like,
well,
we lost some money.
Uh We let,
we might be leaving some money on the table,
maybe we just need to change.
Uh and pivot uh as it relates to our strategy and our vision,
(11:22):
you know,
what's amazing about this though is like you're talking,
you're telling a story about like your passion being like uh working at a homeless shelter,
right?
What I'm hearing you say actually is that you,
you took a really deeply held value and for reasons,
you know,
it was up or out and whatever advice you got that got you into Wall Street to begin with,
but you didn't let go of it and you found a way to express that within this huge corporate environment.
(11:46):
Now,
for those of you out there that are,
are,
are less familiar with Eric's story than I am like,
this wasn't just a little thing he did like he was,
he was running a billion five investment portfolio purely on social impact investing.
These were big numbers.
Tell me about how,
what was your experience when you were trying to get such a huge company to even pay attention?
(12:10):
You're talking about,
you know,
racial and social justice issues.
That is a huge ask in a big Wall Street firm to get people to focus on.
So what was that like?
I think you're giving me a bit too much credit to be honest with you.
Uh uh truth be told that,
you know,
I was,
I was an ad on the ass of an elephant.
So um and I say that with all,
(12:33):
with all respect to both elephants and nets.
Um and what I mean by that is,
you know,
the firm that I,
you know,
Alliance Bernstein is a,
is the large global asset manager.
They have about,
you know,
$700 billion of assets under management.
So when you say a billion,
billion and a half while that is a large number for while while that is a um a meaningful number,
(12:55):
I'm not gonna say it's not,
it's not a large number,
it's a but it,
it,
it's a,
it's a meaningful number.
Um And I think I was small enough and I think this was just like um I,
I actually am very uh very appreciative and very thankful uh to Alliance Bernstein because they actually gave me,
for the most part,
(13:15):
they gave me the autonomy of the agency to kind of do what I wanted to do.
And so I actually had a startup within a large existing organization.
Uh And so I didn't necessarily have to go out and raise,
I mean,
we obviously raised money uh through,
uh but,
but,
but we didn't have to do,
you know,
various series a,
you know,
we didn't have to do a venture.
We didn't have to do a uh um a friends and family,
(13:36):
family round.
We didn't have to do uh angel,
we didn't have to do series,
you know,
a through E or what have you.
Um We just sort of uh uh crafted a uh product and a message that I thought would be would,
would,
would uh resonate with clients who are predisposed to think about uh the social and environmental issues and these uh inequalities and,
(14:00):
and,
and the idea that here's a specific,
like in terms of dealing with this municipal municipal finance sector,
this is a very foundational way uh to influence um the economic development and the economic wherewithal of communities through infrastructure.
Uh And so it's a very,
(14:21):
it's very proximate,
like often joke about uh the municipal market being the original impact market.
Uh because when you think about what municipalities are,
are charged to do,
whether that's to provide high quality education,
health care,
access to clean water sanitation,
promote a transition from fossil fuels to renewables,
affordable housing.
(14:42):
You know,
these are mass transportation,
these are things that are um foundational to just and sustainable communities.
And so it's just a natural fit,
a natural outgrowth.
And so I just really sort of tapped into that and it's just sort of,
and it,
and it resonated with the financial advisors on our private wealth side,
uh to the extent that,
yeah,
we were able to raise about a billion and a half over a four year or five year period.
(15:05):
And I think the company was just really,
I mean,
uh alliance Bernstein as a whole was very happy.
It was a new,
sort of a AAA new,
new business unit of sorts,
right?
Uh that we could sort of launch and,
and,
and what ended up happening thereafter was developing um you know,
values based portfolios,
you know,
uh this notion of meaningful money if you will.
(15:27):
Um And so it was,
you know,
it just so happened that it had a mode of success uh of commercial success,
I guarantee you that if it did not have that commercial success,
I would have,
I,
I,
they would not have uh kept funding it.
There's absolutely no,
no,
no,
no,
no doubt in my mind about that.
I think that I think we're,
you know,
II I think we're at a moment.
We're at a corporate moment right now where,
(15:49):
you know,
I,
as I was asked to be an impact investor and,
and,
and as an impact investor,
I al also see myself as an advocate and an,
and,
and an activist around uh around the things that I think our clients want to see.
Now the question becomes,
you know,
is that always aligned with the C Suite?
And I would argue in traditional asset management firms right now that advocacy and activism uh in many,
(16:14):
many cases,
uh does not align well with that.
And there tends to be uh you know,
values,
there can be values misalignment.
Uh and there are issues associated with that.
But um but that needs to be addressed and massaged and uh you know,
talked about over time,
(16:34):
but given the fact that I was just such a small entity and start,
you know,
basically starting at zero with an idea.
Um They were happy to,
they were happy.
I I think you need to give yourself a little bit more credit honestly because there was nobody else doing it,
right?
So a billion five in the context of $100 billion plus firm might seem like tiny,
but in the context of the world in which we live in,
(16:55):
in which people are not putting capital of that size towards these issues.
I,
I do think it is,
it,
it is pretty significant because it's always about proof of concept.
Now,
I wanna,
I wanna make sure people understand what you're,
what you're referring to here when you talk about municipal finance.
So what you're actually saying is you were working on helping cities,
(17:17):
municipalities,
counties,
states raise money to invest in their region and build stuff and build stuff.
So they're building,
they're building hospitals,
they're building public space,
they're,
you know,
whatever it is,
right?
So help me understand how,
what you're doing moves the needle like how,
(17:39):
how can raising money for a city translate into impact in a meaningful way where social disparities are getting addressed?
Well,
so,
so,
yeah,
so the,
the,
the um good question and what I would say is there are numerous,
there are numerous aspects uh to this uh I as a buyer of an investor,
(18:00):
you know,
I so a municipality or let's just say uh uh a school district wants to,
you know,
so uh years might be a little bit dated but not,
not much.
But Philadelphia's uh Philadelphia school district uh in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania,
the average of a school building there is uh anywhere between 70 75 years old.
Um And so when you think about what,
(18:21):
you know,
and then by the way,
they're not,
it's not because they're architectural marvels.
It's not because um their landmarks,
et cetera,
et cetera just because they're generally speaking old.
Uh What does that say to a kid that has to go to school there?
What does it say to a teacher has to teach there?
I mean,
on some level,
it,
it really is saying your disposable we don't really,
you know,
we don't really care.
Uh And that as an impact investor is sort of anathema,
(18:42):
right?
And it's a,
it's,
it's,
it's abhorrent.
Uh and we should want to change that and,
and we should be,
we should want to inject equity,
not in the form of ownership but equity in firm in,
in,
in the,
in the form of state of the art facilities so that all these kids can go to school in state of the art facilities.
Uh And you know,
if we're gonna,
if we're gonna evaluate outcomes and achievements,
(19:04):
et cetera,
you know,
social,
emotional,
uh you know,
all these and,
and,
and,
and uh academic achievements,
then we should have these kids and we're gonna ask these kids to run a race,
we should all have them start at the same place,
right?
As an example.
Um And so I was,
you know,
making investments in the bonds that,
that the school district of Philadelphia was issuing so that they could have money to go out and,
(19:27):
and build new buildings.
I'm following you.
But help me understand like that's great that,
that,
that creates impact right there.
But,
but like when you talk about like an inequality gap,
right?
Help like what's the last mile there?
How do you,
how do you,
how do you shrink the inequality?
Well,
I mean,
we shrink the inequality one at a time but we're specifically uplifting and centering.
(19:50):
Uh this disinvested um,
and this excluded community,
right.
So,
um,
so for example,
within the space of education,
we wouldn't,
uh,
we wouldn't invest in any school district that didn't have at least 60% of its enrollment qualifying for free or reduced price meals.
Right?
So you are so like I'm not really interested,
(20:11):
you know,
you,
well,
I think it's important that folks in Beverly Hills,
uh,
unified school district go to school,
you know,
have,
have great,
have great facilities.
I'm not really interested in Beverly Hills because my,
my guess is that they have the tax base,
they have the wherewithal to,
to access markets uh at uh optimal,
(20:32):
if not uh you know,
at,
at the lowest cost of capital.
Whereas other,
where,
whereas other communities specifically um uh disinvested communities,
poor communities have had a hard time maximizing uh or even optimizing their lowest cost of capital.
So that's where I come in.
Um And I'm specifically centering and uplifting these communities uh and part and trying to part and actually through the,
(20:56):
through the um due diligence process trying to uh partner and collaborate with them.
Obviously,
I've II I think I've,
I've found something that's in,
that's uh positive and endearing and very constructive about what this particular um entity,
this municipal entity is doing to combat this investment,
to combat um uh you know,
(21:18):
being underresourced for so long and it's about partnering and,
and,
and basically asking questions that they haven't been asked before and understanding,
do they have a handle?
And do they have a great understanding of,
of the task at hand and how they're going and what's the vision and what's the strategy to get there to reduce these disparities?
So whether it's in the physical environment of a school or even think about it for,
(21:41):
it's more,
it's more,
it's more tangible,
although it's certainly more,
um,
long range,
uh a longer time,
time perspective in health care,
right?
There are so many places across the country where,
you know,
communities exist and within,
you know,
just a couple of miles of two different communities,
the life expectancy differential can be up to 30 years,
(22:02):
right?
So a perfect example of that is in Boston,
not to flavor the point,
but in Boston uh back baby can Hill the I'm I'm rounding here.
The average life expectancy of someone who lives there is about 90 is about 90.
That's a very,
very wealthy community.
About 2 to 3 miles away is a community called Roxbury Maan.
Uh And uh the life expectancy there is,
is about 60.
(22:23):
Um And so,
you know,
again,
that should be abort to any investor.
Why do we tolerate this as a society?
How do we uh try to reduce that gap?
And part of that it would be um investing in some in,
in,
in,
in a hospital called Boston Medical Center,
which is like the foremost uh institution dealing with the uh social determinants of health.
(22:43):
So we think about how do we stay healthy if we don't have access to shelter,
to quality shelter,
to nutrition,
to save communities duties to transportation to child care.
Um This is an institution that not only provides a very uh a top notch high quality product within the confine medical product within the confines of the four walls,
but are actually working just as hard,
if not harder outside the four walls uh to,
(23:07):
to improve the health and well being of their community.
And,
and at some point in time,
that's going to result in an increase uh in um and the life expected for that community.
And that's something that I want to support.
That's something that I want to center.
That's something that I want to uplift and that's impact.
So,
you know,
I,
what I'm taking away from this is I always talk about my whole thing is about being intentional,
(23:30):
being an intentional business and effectively,
what I heard heard you say is that how do you get the impact?
You're really intentional about where the money goes.
It's not just about giving municipalities money,
but it's like,
it's like doing the thought work and saying,
who needs it?
Where can we actually take this capital to take this money and shrink the gap because there are parts of our community that are struggling and underperforming.
(23:54):
Yes.
What I would also say is like,
that's the first generation of what we do.
And uh the second generation of what we do is taking that advocacy and that activism to the,
to,
to,
to another level.
And basically saying,
well,
how do we partner with this organization going forward?
And if they,
you know,
in,
in terms of various projects that they need?
But again,
part,
a lot of,
a lot of this is how do we change the allocation of capital that is historically kind of gone to uh wealthier communities at the expense of,
(24:21):
of poor communities.
And,
and how do we turn that around?
And that's by bringing other impact investors together uh to intentionally,
and you mentioned the word intentional to intentionally do this work,
which is,
you know,
directly partnering with these communities uh in helping through technical assistance,
do some due diligence around the infrastructure that they,
(24:44):
that they want,
that they need.
And,
and it's really from,
from a grassroots perspective and then how do we bring that uh as,
as financial folks,
how do we be vessels to bring the financial stack to bear to provide the community,
what it needs and what it wants?
Um And so there's,
you know,
there's activism and advocacy around that.
(25:04):
Um And you know that that's,
that's um just as essential to me anyway,
as making the original investment.
So,
yeah,
I mean,
what you're offering is basically a lot more than money.
You talk about capital,
money going into these places.
But what you're offering is not just a source of funding,
but you're offering a partnership to help them identify and actually solve the problems like how to use the money in a way that's gonna get the outcomes that they want.
(25:30):
So you're,
you're,
you're creating a longer term partnership between this group of investors and,
and the cities and municipalities.
One thing that really strikes me about what you're saying is I,
I've said so long for so,
for so long when I was in corporate and then you can see it in politics right now that um our budget is our values,
what you put in your budget directly reflects what is important to you.
(25:55):
Um It strikes me that one of the major innovations,
what you're talking about is this is all happening outside of taxpayer funded initiatives.
You're raising money basically from private organizations to do the work.
So it's not as if I am I wrong about that.
Well,
I mean,
I would say that if I if,
if we can't raise,
(26:16):
if we can't raise funds to manage,
uh then we can't make those investments,
right?
So there's a right,
there's a cycle here.
Um And so I have spent an inordinate amount of time over the last,
you know,
5 to 10 years being a missionary and a proselytizer around what you just mentioned in terms of uplifting certain values that whenever we purchase something,
(26:37):
there's,
there's an expression of a value in that and um to many of financial advisors dismay in the past,
I have often said,
I don't really care if you invest with me or not.
The question becomes,
I just really wanna raise your,
I wanna raise uh awareness that how we make these investments and where we make these investments is really,
(27:00):
really important um to society as a whole.
You know.
Do I think I do it better than,
than most?
Yeah,
I do.
But I,
I'm,
I'm,
I'm loathe to say that.
I'm hesitant to say that.
But the idea here is,
yeah,
we,
we can change,
we can change community.
We uh and uh we can really change kind of the way capital.
(27:21):
I truly believe wholeheartedly believe that we can,
you know,
change the way capital is allocated that it,
that,
you know,
when you asked me before,
in terms of,
you know,
traditional asset managers and the investment banking and Wall Street and whatnot.
And I just think that like,
you know,
Wall Street,
who am I to say this?
But I,
I know there's a lot of potential arrogance.
I don't mean it to sound arrogant as much as,
(27:41):
I mean,
to make it sound audacious.
So I,
I do think that allocation of capital has become bastardized and it's become a game and it's become a system to help certain,
you know,
rich white old men stay rich and white.
Uh Well,
actually,
I shouldn't say rich and white,
they're gonna always be white but rich,
they're not gonna change their whiteness,
but they can change their richness anyway.
(28:03):
Um But uh right.
But,
but,
but how,
how do we create a system that is far more inclusive,
that's far more holistic that is regenerative and transform as opposed to extractive.
And that's kind of what I'm trying to,
to bring to the,
to the table uh in various levels of success and failure and,
(28:24):
and whatnot.
But I have an idea.
So trying to pursue that I love.
So actually,
like one of the main big takeaways here is it's like you're really trying to bring Wall Street to work with main street in,
in a way to solve problems.
But you just said like so many times,
financial folks are like,
I don't care where you invest,
just invest with me.
And there's kind of like this unconsciousness about it.
(28:46):
Like there's this idea that's like,
ok,
well,
he's just gonna manage my money and then you kind of become removed from it and you don't really know.
I'm really curious,
what do you think individuals,
I'm talking about the average person on the street,
like boots on the ground,
living their day to day life.
What can they do to be more thoughtful about how they're saving money where their investments are going?
(29:07):
Like is there a way that we can just intermediate this so that we the average Joe can actually create an impact?
Yeah,
I mean,
I absolutely.
II,
I mean,
I,
I think that,
well,
well,
there's a couple of things,
one there aren't,
this obviously sounds,
this obviously sounds self serving.
Um,
but I guess that's why I'm on my test.
(29:29):
But anyway,
um,
there aren't there,
what I've found to date is that there really aren't a lot of thoughtful,
rigorous public market vehicles to do this work.
Right.
So,
so from ad,
so from a supply perspective,
there's a limited supply,
(29:49):
right?
And then there's this demand,
uh there's this demand perspective,
right?
And I think that what makes,
you know,
this idea,
you know,
potentially viable is this idea that is the,
is the notion that probably with over the next 20 over the next 20 to 25 years,
there's various estimates out there,
(30:10):
but around $70 trillion are going to change hands between generation,
you know,
between the,
the the white male patriarch.
And that's gonna,
you know what,
when they pass away,
that money is going to,
you know,
there's gonna be a dynastic transfer of wealth to women and their Children and what we know or what,
what,
what,
what,
what these women and Children have said is they want to better align their values with the way in which they invest,
(30:35):
right?
But again,
so,
so,
so we know that there's potentially demand,
but there's not a whole heck of a lot of rigorous thoughtful supply and on some level,
that's kind of what I'm trying to solve for both from a municipal perspective um through Clarion call capital,
but also not only just from a municipal perspective,
but also just from a fixed income perspective and a platform that can go global.
(30:59):
And my thoughts on that are,
are quite simply that I think equities,
public equities have been done to death around sustainability and and whatnot.
And I think it's very hard to do sustainability and particularly impact from a public um from a public equity perspective.
And I think because of some structural,
some structural market uh phenomenon like repressed rates for a very,
very long time fixed income hasn't been a uh an alternative for investors or a viable alternative alternative to investors.
(31:26):
Uh And now that we've seen rates rise uh quite dramatically,
you know,
now it has become uh a viable alternative and so there,
there,
there are planets are aligning in,
in a way.
Uh but to,
to,
to the point that you asked in terms of how can folks make impact,
you know,
uh at least through their investments,
we need,
(31:46):
we need more investment vehicles,
but also importantly,
we need more investment vehicles that are available to,
you know,
everyone.
And so,
you know,
generally speaking what we've seen in,
in and,
and this is just a,
I mean,
this is just a,
a trend and,
but it's a,
it's a very strong trend and,
and particularly in asset management and particularly as it relates to high net worth individuals,
(32:08):
everyone's looking to go up market,
everyone wants the 100 do you know the $100 million client?
And,
and above.
Um I think what's really interesting about a,
about impact investing is how do we democratize and socialize it?
And so yes,
in order to build a business,
you are probably going to have to rely,
at least in the very beginning,
you're gonna have to rely on,
on,
on generally speaking,
(32:28):
uh higher wealth uh individuals.
But at some point in time when you've reached uh sort of a running rate that is appropriate for any,
you know,
sort of any business,
it's really,
really important to socialize and democratize what you're doing so that everyone can participate in this.
Uh so that folks who are just graduating from college,
you know,
(32:48):
they're participating in,
you know,
and,
and,
and thinking about making their own investments uh early on,
you know,
we're not talking about AAA $500,000 minimum ticket size we're really talking about,
you know,
can we do it at 5000,
10,000,
25,000,
you know,
and are there you your uh economies of scale to be able to do that?
And I think there are,
(33:09):
but I think that again,
there's a,
a mismatch between supply and demand.
So,
I mean,
it strikes me though,
first of all,
a couple of uh a couple of definitions for those of you that are not familiar with fixed income and,
and equities,
equities are just,
it's the stock market,
fixed income is debt.
So investing in debt tre,
you know,
it could be treasury bonds,
(33:30):
it could be.
Yeah,
the municipal.
So iii I try,
I try,
I liken it to people who are,
who want to invest in equities and who do equities for a living are very optimistic.
Folks.
Um They're very helpful.
Uh And those who do debt are,
are very dour uh and uh depressed,
uh because the upside there isn't a whole heck of a lot of,
I mean,
(33:50):
generally speaking,
there's not like a whole heck of a lot of upside.
You can't hit,
you don't,
you don't invest in debt markets to hit a home run,
you invest in debt markets to hit singles and doubles.
Uh whereas,
you know,
everyone sort of dreams of,
well,
of,
of making the,
uh you know,
it's good investment inequities perfectly aligned with what you're trying to do because you're talking about making sustainable long term investments in communities that are gonna play out over over decades,
(34:15):
right?
That's not uh get as much growth and consumption as quickly as you can through,
you know,
overvalued stock appreciation.
Um You,
you said that I didn't,
but generally speaking.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I know.
I,
I hear you.
Um I,
I,
I'm a reformed Wall Street guy myself.
So II I get it.
Um One of the things you were just saying about like the demand though.
(34:37):
Like there's,
you know,
there's these shops that are popping up all over the place where it's like,
oh,
you know,
use our app and,
you know,
if you have like 15 cents left on your bill,
right,
like the remainder will go into your savings account.
Right.
I mean,
I think about even just the opportunities around crowdsourcing and how many people have,
like,
(34:57):
done,
go fund me and stuff.
I think the moment for democratization of the financial markets is here because the technology definitely enables it,
right?
And the impediment that I see that you're talking about is access to information.
Where can my money do the most good?
Like where can I get information or where can I self select myself into um a certain number of causes where I know my investment dollar will be put to uses that I agree with.
(35:27):
And so that's kind of what clarion call is trying to solve is what it sounds like.
Yeah,
it is.
II I would say that,
you know,
generally speaking and I,
I'm,
I'm painting with a very broad brush stroke here.
So take it with a grain of salt.
But when we invest in,
in public,
right?
Uh you know,
if we want,
you know,
if we want to invest in Google Meta,
uh Boeing Johnson and Johnson,
(35:50):
you know,
we generally speaking can go and just buy it.
You know,
the debt markets are a bit different and the municipal markets are really,
really different uh in the sense that within the municipal market,
there's about 50,000 issuers and about a million Qs.
So there's basically a million different types of things like line items of different bonds that you can buy.
(36:10):
Um And they just,
you know,
they,
they,
they're not always available,
in fact,
rarely are they available.
Um And so it is really,
really difficult um to go out and as an individual to go out and build a portfolio from scratch,
if you are not a sort of quote unquote professional investor uh within fixed income,
(36:34):
it's incredibly,
incredibly difficult,
the uh asymmetric information that exists,
whether,
you know,
uh one,
like what's the underlying credit fundamentals of the thing that I'm trying to buy two,
the bonds are,
you know,
if bonds are offered,
they're offered all over the place and at ridiculously high prices.
Uh but,
and mom and pop would have absolutely no notion of what that really,
(36:56):
what,
what that meant and they could get caught on the wrong side of that trade.
Um And so the fixed income markets and particularly the municipal market is really not set up for Mr and Mrs Smith if you will um to build portfolios from scratch.
And so you're kind of,
I mean,
I,
I I'm not,
obviously it's also self serving that you should sort of seek out some advice from,
(37:19):
you know,
some,
some practitioners,
some professional practitioners,
I think that's really,
really be true and based on the experiences that I've had uh trying to build portfolios um for others,
uh you know,
it,
it,
it,
it can be mind numbing and it can be incredibly difficult to do.
Um And so it's not,
you know,
like it's,
(37:39):
this is not for the masses,
it's just,
it's just,
it's the way the,
the way the um industry is set up currently,
it is not for the masses.
Um Now we can argue whether there's,
you know,
a conspiracy or we can argue whether that's intentional or not.
But the idea here is,
it's really,
um,
it's really hard to do.
(38:00):
Uh And can we through technology potentially uh fintech,
can we make it easier?
I would argue that's gonna be a hard,
that's gonna be a hard thing to do just because based on disclosure rules and,
um,
there's a,
a general II I,
it's,
it's,
it's difficult to do,
not impossible.
Uh,
but certainly improvements around disclosure uh within the municipal market is certainly something that we're,
(38:22):
you know,
looking for.
We're actually looking to drive.
So it's,
it's one thing to drive financial disclosure.
But what about sort of the social environmental disclosure and,
and the risks that these entities face um going forward,
right?
Um We need to sort of standardize some of that stuff as well and I think that will help others,
um try if you wanna try to do this on your own.
Uh it will help,
uh,
help do that.
(38:42):
But that,
but I don't think we're,
I don't think we're there yet.
Um,
and it'll be a while before we get there,
uh,
to,
you know,
where it,
it really is easier for folks to do this on their own.
Well,
it's interesting because,
uh,
we're almost 12 years almost to the day.
Not quite,
um,
you know,
(39:02):
marking the occupy Wall Street movement,
I guess.
Right.
Which was,
which was definitely 14,
like 14 years,
right?
It is 5 15,
actually,
it is the 15th anniversary,
the 15th.
Yeah,
I had 2008.
0,
yeah.
Ok.
I was,
I was in North Carolina driving down the street down the highway as the markets were imploding on my way to my sister's.
(39:26):
So neither here nor there.
So that was an interesting moment because here you have like,
it was kind of almost definition countercultural with people sitting and protesting for weeks on end,
months on end,
right?
Um Against the systems of Wall Street and specifically the idea of and inequality and,
(39:49):
and equity was front and center in that conversation.
What you're talking about is feels to me like it is,
um I would say spiritually aligned for lack of a better word,
but you're actually working within the institution,
the way Wall Street works to try to get your,
so your tactics and your strategies are totally different.
(40:11):
What have we learned if anything about the financial system and its role in inequality in the last 15 years.
What would you reflect on there?
That's a really good question.
Um,
unfortunately,
um,
wealth inequality,
uh,
the racial wealth gap,
um,
have all gotten worse.
(40:32):
Um,
so,
uh,
so whatever we've,
whatever we've tried to do or have,
uh,
done over the last 15,
25 50 years,
um,
has not worked.
So I think that requires a,
a reset.
Uh,
you know,
there,
there are various folks out there.
(40:52):
Um you know,
trying uh very hard to think about and to address the racial wealth gap,
whether that be through reparations,
whether that be through baby bonds,
whether that be for guaranteed income.
Um There are a whole bunch of projects out there and,
and whatnot.
I think that,
yeah,
it's gonna require,
it's gonna require uh all hands on deck,
(41:14):
it's gonna require government at all levels.
It's gonna require philanthropy,
it's gonna require investors to take a different perspective.
Uh And to understand,
you know,
uh that when all of us do,
you know,
when,
when the least,
uh the least,
well in our community do well,
uh we all do well and we all do better.
Um You know,
(41:34):
and so as I reflect on,
you know,
as I reflect on my work and I reflect on changes,
um I would actually argue there hasn't been any change.
Um In fact,
um I think various systems and um scaffolding have just hardened and that's kind of depressing and it's,
(41:55):
it's not,
um,
it,
it's depressing and,
um,
kind of have to double down on,
on trying to change that.
Um,
so I don't really iii,
I,
you know,
it's one of those things where you think historically,
there,
there are,
there are moments in time where,
where there is potential for change and,
and so,
yes,
2000,
2008,
(42:15):
the,
the,
uh,
the bank crisis,
you know,
we think about uh the civil rights movement and the rebellions of 1960 7,
1965 67 68.
And even the,
you know,
the Kerner Commission report that was written and published in 1968 tried to diagnose the problems that led to the rebellions,
uh the urban rebellions uh here in the United States.
(42:37):
And,
you know,
it was,
you know,
we have,
uh you know,
two societies,
um you know,
separate and unequal,
right?
And,
and uh if you look at the things that the issues that were being debated and talked about,
you know,
50 years ago,
60 years ago,
they still exist,
those disparities still exist.
So that's very disappointing and it's very disheartening,
(42:59):
but it's also an opportunity.
Uh And it's also sort of a,
um just a,
a clarion call if you will,
a clarion call um to uh a clarion call to make change.
And that's kind of what I'm,
you know,
that's kind of what I set out to do.
And that's what the,
you know,
that,
that is,
that is precisely uh what,
(43:19):
uh the name of the business.
That's what I wanna do.
And that's what it suggests is that there's,
you know,
it's,
it's,
it's time,
uh,
you know,
from an environmental uh perspective,
these are existential issues.
Uh and we're running out of time,
um from a social perspective,
we're running out of time.
Um And uh we have to do things differently than what we've done in the past uh dramatically.
(43:45):
So,
and I wanna be a part of that.
Uh And I want to contribute to the solution around some of these problems.
We,
there is no one solution.
Um But there are,
you know,
I,
I wanna be an arrow in the quiver of these solutions.
And when I say,
I,
I don't mean I meaning Eric Glass as much as,
I mean,
you know,
(44:05):
um the finance industry uh and going back to its roots,
which was to uh you know,
fund growth,
fund growth,
uh fund individuals,
fund communities.
Uh Right.
It wasn't about um financial wizardry and engineering.
Um You know,
I,
I'm fine with people uh participating in a capitalist system,
(44:29):
you know,
iii I think it,
what it does spur competition,
it does spur but it,
but all things can be bastardized and I think that um all systems can be bastardized and I think uh capitalism is broken.
Uh Certainly neoliberal capitalism is broken.
Uh And we need to take a new fresh look uh at how to uplift and center um excluded and disinvested communities.
(44:53):
So,
if people wanted to get in touch with you and find out more about how they can get smart on their own investing or even just,
you know,
get some more resources because I know you're big on the education front.
How could they best contact you?
Well,
Michael,
they can uh email me at Eric dot glass uh at Clarion call capital dot com.
(45:13):
Um And I'd be happy to uh to uh start discussions and engage in conversations with folks who are sort of interested in uh predisposed to think uh you know,
in,
in ways that uh hopefully we can have a meaningful,
significant impact on uh sort of the,
(45:33):
the growth and sustainability of communities.
So,
um so yeah,
so that would probably be the best way to go about doing that.
Awesome.
Well,
thank you for walking us through social impact investing today and uh our eyes are gonna be on uh on your work out there because it's important and it's disruptive and it's need it.
(45:56):
So,
thank you for everything that you do.
Well,
thank you very much for uh for highlighting the work.
And uh again,
given the platform,
it's an absolute pleasure talking to you as always.
Thank you,
always,
great to talk to you as well.
You can find Michael Messer at discerning strategies dot com.
Set up a free 20 minute consultation.
(46:17):
Clarify your goals,
scale your business,
amplify your impact,
discerning strategies dot com.
What does growth look like in your business in your life as a business owner,
executive or individual,
you can live and lead with intention to create the change you want to see in your community and the world.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies podcast,
a place where we can see clearly and act wisely.
(00:28):
Welcome everyone to the Discerning Strategies podcast.
I am your host,
Michael Messer and today we are gonna be talking about social impact investing.
I am joined by my friend and colleague,
Eric Glass,
who is the founder of Clarion Call Capital and we're gonna talk a little bit about this crazy thing called Wall Street and how actually it might actually be an engine for good.
(00:52):
Imagine that.
So,
Eric,
how are you doing today?
Good Michael.
Thank you for having me and appreciate the platform.
Yeah.
Any,
any time you're doing really,
really interesting work and I'm curious just to start us off,
what is social impact investing.
Uh So I,
I think um there's a lot of confusion out there in this moment of now politically.
(01:15):
Um There's uh uh a lot of different terms being bandied about.
We have ESG which is stands for uh environmental social governance.
Um We have sustainable investment,
we have socially responsible investment,
we have impact investing.
And so I kind of look at these things as being an evolution.
Um So back in the sixties,
(01:36):
seventies,
um with the environmental movement,
uh non-nuclear proliferation,
even from a social perspective,
the um divestment uh from Apartheid South Africa,
there is sort of this uh socially responsible uh movement,
it's evolved.
And so I consider it to be,
I really do consider this to be an evolution.
And so I sort of liken it to this idea that ESG for or at least from my perspective,
(02:00):
ESG is really sort of like we're emerging from the primordial ooze uh of evolution,
right?
And uh organizations are looking to better mitigate risk from an environmental and social perspective as well as a governance perspective.
They're all sort of interrelated.
Um And uh it's this uh notion that if we can better control and mitigate our risks,
(02:25):
then the quality of our earnings goes goes higher and that should benefit all stakeholders,
but,
but,
but also shareholders uh as being part of stakeholders.
Uh and then as you continue to move out,
uh and you're still on all fours.
Uh but then you sort of,
you know,
raise on 2 ft,
you sort of get to this idea of sustainable investing.
(02:45):
Um And again,
it's just like taking the ESG movement to uh just a more uh heightened level sort of thinking about that,
not just from a defensive,
negative perspective,
but also thinking it from an offensive perspective in terms of,
you know,
picking out uh good,
good companies,
uh good investments that really have their finger on the pulse of uh you know,
(03:08):
uh making products that uh and providing services uh that uh benefit uh community writ large.
Um And then as you kind of,
you're out,
you're on,
you're on your,
you're on your uh two legs and you sort of look down at your hands and you realize that you have opposable thumbs.
Uh that is impact to me that is impact investing.
(03:28):
I know this is kind of corny,
but go,
go with me on this one.
So you have,
you have opposable thumbs uh that's impact investing.
And so for me,
impact investing is specifically solely uh and explicitly investing in underresourced,
excluded,
disinvested communities with the ex,
(03:49):
with,
with the,
with the intent to reduce disparity in the built environment between those that have and those that have not.
And so it is,
it,
it is a sort of as opposed to being defensive,
which I think esg um can,
you know,
generally speaking,
is uh impact investing is more offensive.
(04:10):
And so it's actually speci specifically uh uh picking out communities uh and engaging directly with those communities around what is the sort of infrastructure,
the economic development that they would like to see uh and trying to bring that to fruition.
Wow.
So,
so basically,
if I understand you correctly,
it's like,
yeah,
people started thinking about risk and like,
(04:31):
how can we protect my company?
And they kind of realized like,
hm,
gosh,
we're part of society.
And so maybe we should start thinking about society and protect ourselves against those things and climate change and all that other stuff.
And now what you're saying is we're in this next phase,
which is how can we actually go to the root cause and move the needle?
Is that right?
Yeah,
I think that's uh I,
(04:52):
I think that's an a very good way of summing that up.
In fact,
I wish I had said that myself in,
in,
in,
in such,
in such brief uh in such brief statements.
So I'm so curious,
like,
OK,
so most people probably do not think about when they,
they think about like diminishing social inequities,
(05:16):
racial inequities,
whatever inequities are out there in community levels.
They don't typically think of Wall Street,
you're actually a Wall street guy.
So how does,
how do those,
how do those two things live in the same world?
Explain this to me.
Well,
I,
you make that sound as if I'm some sort of unicorn.
Um And what I would suggest is that um there's a whole gene there,
(05:38):
there's probably AAA generation of us that have uh sort of taken a,
a different perspective on the way in which capital uh has been allocated in the past.
And so,
uh you know,
obviously this comes from my perspective,
yes,
I,
I had a,
a pretty long career in a traditional asset management shop in different phases of that.
So in research analytics and trading and portfolio management,
(06:01):
and I,
I think that there came a time for me,
whereas what I was doing was generally speaking,
was making rich white old men richer.
Um And it wasn't very fulfilling.
And so also let me just take a step back from that like that,
that sort of sounds like it came out of thin air that,
(06:21):
that realization and,
and it really didn't,
um prior to my experience on quote unquote Wall Street.
And I,
I really dislike that notion of Wall Street.
It seems so hegemonic and monolithic and whatever.
But anyway,
um but before that experience,
I helped run a homeless shelter in East Orange,
New Jersey um for numerous years.
(06:43):
And that was my,
you know,
sort,
sort of,
that was my calling at the time,
right?
That was kind of like my North Star,
uh direct,
uh you know,
service,
uh social service,
public service to communities.
Um Again,
at a grassroots level,
I just felt entirely uh secure in that decision and,
(07:07):
and uh really sort of uh energized and sort of,
again,
just sort of had found my,
had,
had,
had found my calling.
Unfortunately,
um There were also these things called life which involved,
uh paying off debt from student loans and other things.
Um And actually,
you know,
what the funny thing is is that I got some really bad advice from,
from my mentors who I,
(07:28):
I love to this day,
you know,
they,
they basically,
and,
and,
and understand that this is,
this is kind of an aside,
but the organization that I was,
that I was a part of was a very small at that time,
it was a $4 million top line revenue.
Um It was,
you know,
very,
very,
a relatively small nonprofit,
doing incredible work,
but there wasn't,
there wasn't really much of a hierarchy.
(07:48):
And so the only place for me to go uh would,
in terms of my own trajectory in that organization would have been to executive director and the executive director at the time.
Uh Glenda Kirkland,
uh one of my uh mentors who again,
love to this day,
uh shout out to Glenda.
Um But uh you know,
she wasn't going anywhere.
In fact,
she was studying for her phd at the time uh in public policy and public administration.
(08:11):
So,
um she wasn't going anywhere and,
and um you know,
between her and another,
a mentor at the time,
Zoltan Kennedy,
who happened to be the um who happened to be the auditor of,
of said shelter.
Uh They sort of convinced me to take the graduate degree that I was,
that I was getting and,
and go to the for profit world so I did that and the moment that I left the,
(08:33):
the,
the moment I left the nonprofit world,
I was itching to get back to the,
the for profit,
uh,
the,
the nonprofit world because I just felt so I just felt like a fish out of water.
But,
you know,
as time goes on you sort of life happens and,
uh,
you stick with something that,
you know,
that you sort of feel like you're good at and uh but it wasn't very fulfilling um at the time.
(08:56):
And then,
um to be honest with you back in 2010,
2011,
I took,
I audited a class at the new school for social research uh with a uh uh uh uh a professor Michelle Kahana who was fresh out of the Clinton global initiatives.
And she,
she taught a class around social entrepreneurship.
And it was through that class,
actually that I audited that I found uh that I found this notion of impact investing.
(09:17):
So in other words,
being able to invest uh for both a financial and environmental and social return.
Ironically,
I failed that class.
Um And it's true,
I just didn't do,
I just didn't want to do the,
I didn't want to do all the assignments.
Um And so I actually failed that class.
Uh but ha ha I think I had the last laugh and,
and I sort of became one of the larger impact investors here in the United States.
(09:39):
Uh but that was like the,
those are the couple of sort of the,
the,
the sort of uh catalysts to the work.
And so,
you know,
it was through these,
through,
through these things that,
you know,
I was,
I was in,
I was,
I was in a traditional asset management firm.
Um but came up with this idea around doing impact investing,
I propped it,
you could imagine back in 2010,
2011,
(10:00):
in,
in asset management,
people are still really trying to keep their head above water.
We had just had the 2008 financial um you know,
uh crisis if you will.
And so people looked at me like I had five heads.
That's OK.
I've most people look at me like I have five heads.
So that,
that,
that really didn't dissuade me.
But um what was really interesting about that?
And part of the origin story is that fast forward,
(10:21):
you know,
I took this class and I,
I and I developed this idea around this investment vehicle fast forward from 2011 to about 2015.
Uh And the organization I worked for uh Bernstein Private Wealth Management Alliance,
Bernstein.
Um they lost,
lost uh a,
a relatively large um legacy client,
(10:42):
asset management client because that client wanted to do uh impact investing.
At least this is the way it was,
it was told,
this is the way the story was told to me.
Um,
and at that moment in time,
my managing director sort of looked at me and sort of said,
you know,
hey,
you've been talking about this for several years.
Um,
you know,
what do you have?
Uh,
maybe,
maybe we should actually take a look at this and maybe,
maybe there's something to be here.
(11:02):
And so,
you know,
that's what I,
it,
it really wasn't that,
you know,
I had a good idea and Wall Street or,
you know,
the powers that be said,
yeah,
let's,
let's run with this great idea.
It was more just like,
well,
we lost some money.
Uh We let,
we might be leaving some money on the table,
maybe we just need to change.
Uh and pivot uh as it relates to our strategy and our vision,
(11:22):
you know,
what's amazing about this though is like you're talking,
you're telling a story about like your passion being like uh working at a homeless shelter,
right?
What I'm hearing you say actually is that you,
you took a really deeply held value and for reasons,
you know,
it was up or out and whatever advice you got that got you into Wall Street to begin with,
but you didn't let go of it and you found a way to express that within this huge corporate environment.
(11:46):
Now,
for those of you out there that are,
are,
are less familiar with Eric's story than I am like,
this wasn't just a little thing he did like he was,
he was running a billion five investment portfolio purely on social impact investing.
These were big numbers.
Tell me about how,
what was your experience when you were trying to get such a huge company to even pay attention?
(12:10):
You're talking about,
you know,
racial and social justice issues.
That is a huge ask in a big Wall Street firm to get people to focus on.
So what was that like?
I think you're giving me a bit too much credit to be honest with you.
Uh uh truth be told that,
you know,
I was,
I was an ad on the ass of an elephant.
So um and I say that with all,
(12:33):
with all respect to both elephants and nets.
Um and what I mean by that is,
you know,
the firm that I,
you know,
Alliance Bernstein is a,
is the large global asset manager.
They have about,
you know,
$700 billion of assets under management.
So when you say a billion,
billion and a half while that is a large number for while while that is a um a meaningful number,
(12:55):
I'm not gonna say it's not,
it's not a large number,
it's a but it,
it,
it's a,
it's a meaningful number.
Um And I think I was small enough and I think this was just like um I,
I actually am very uh very appreciative and very thankful uh to Alliance Bernstein because they actually gave me,
for the most part,
(13:15):
they gave me the autonomy of the agency to kind of do what I wanted to do.
And so I actually had a startup within a large existing organization.
Uh And so I didn't necessarily have to go out and raise,
I mean,
we obviously raised money uh through,
uh but,
but,
but we didn't have to do,
you know,
various series a,
you know,
we didn't have to do a venture.
We didn't have to do a uh um a friends and family,
(13:36):
family round.
We didn't have to do uh angel,
we didn't have to do series,
you know,
a through E or what have you.
Um We just sort of uh uh crafted a uh product and a message that I thought would be would,
would,
would uh resonate with clients who are predisposed to think about uh the social and environmental issues and these uh inequalities and,
(14:00):
and,
and the idea that here's a specific,
like in terms of dealing with this municipal municipal finance sector,
this is a very foundational way uh to influence um the economic development and the economic wherewithal of communities through infrastructure.
Uh And so it's a very,
(14:21):
it's very proximate,
like often joke about uh the municipal market being the original impact market.
Uh because when you think about what municipalities are,
are charged to do,
whether that's to provide high quality education,
health care,
access to clean water sanitation,
promote a transition from fossil fuels to renewables,
affordable housing.
(14:42):
You know,
these are mass transportation,
these are things that are um foundational to just and sustainable communities.
And so it's just a natural fit,
a natural outgrowth.
And so I just really sort of tapped into that and it's just sort of,
and it,
and it resonated with the financial advisors on our private wealth side,
uh to the extent that,
yeah,
we were able to raise about a billion and a half over a four year or five year period.
(15:05):
And I think the company was just really,
I mean,
uh alliance Bernstein as a whole was very happy.
It was a new,
sort of a AAA new,
new business unit of sorts,
right?
Uh that we could sort of launch and,
and,
and what ended up happening thereafter was developing um you know,
values based portfolios,
you know,
uh this notion of meaningful money if you will.
(15:27):
Um And so it was,
you know,
it just so happened that it had a mode of success uh of commercial success,
I guarantee you that if it did not have that commercial success,
I would have,
I,
I,
they would not have uh kept funding it.
There's absolutely no,
no,
no,
no,
no doubt in my mind about that.
I think that I think we're,
you know,
II I think we're at a moment.
We're at a corporate moment right now where,
(15:49):
you know,
I,
as I was asked to be an impact investor and,
and,
and as an impact investor,
I al also see myself as an advocate and an,
and,
and an activist around uh around the things that I think our clients want to see.
Now the question becomes,
you know,
is that always aligned with the C Suite?
And I would argue in traditional asset management firms right now that advocacy and activism uh in many,
(16:14):
many cases,
uh does not align well with that.
And there tends to be uh you know,
values,
there can be values misalignment.
Uh and there are issues associated with that.
But um but that needs to be addressed and massaged and uh you know,
talked about over time,
(16:34):
but given the fact that I was just such a small entity and start,
you know,
basically starting at zero with an idea.
Um They were happy to,
they were happy.
I I think you need to give yourself a little bit more credit honestly because there was nobody else doing it,
right?
So a billion five in the context of $100 billion plus firm might seem like tiny,
but in the context of the world in which we live in,
(16:55):
in which people are not putting capital of that size towards these issues.
I,
I do think it is,
it,
it is pretty significant because it's always about proof of concept.
Now,
I wanna,
I wanna make sure people understand what you're,
what you're referring to here when you talk about municipal finance.
So what you're actually saying is you were working on helping cities,
(17:17):
municipalities,
counties,
states raise money to invest in their region and build stuff and build stuff.
So they're building,
they're building hospitals,
they're building public space,
they're,
you know,
whatever it is,
right?
So help me understand how,
what you're doing moves the needle like how,
(17:39):
how can raising money for a city translate into impact in a meaningful way where social disparities are getting addressed?
Well,
so,
so,
yeah,
so the,
the,
the um good question and what I would say is there are numerous,
there are numerous aspects uh to this uh I as a buyer of an investor,
(18:00):
you know,
I so a municipality or let's just say uh uh a school district wants to,
you know,
so uh years might be a little bit dated but not,
not much.
But Philadelphia's uh Philadelphia school district uh in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania,
the average of a school building there is uh anywhere between 70 75 years old.
Um And so when you think about what,
(18:21):
you know,
and then by the way,
they're not,
it's not because they're architectural marvels.
It's not because um their landmarks,
et cetera,
et cetera just because they're generally speaking old.
Uh What does that say to a kid that has to go to school there?
What does it say to a teacher has to teach there?
I mean,
on some level,
it,
it really is saying your disposable we don't really,
you know,
we don't really care.
Uh And that as an impact investor is sort of anathema,
(18:42):
right?
And it's a,
it's,
it's,
it's abhorrent.
Uh and we should want to change that and,
and we should be,
we should want to inject equity,
not in the form of ownership but equity in firm in,
in,
in the,
in the form of state of the art facilities so that all these kids can go to school in state of the art facilities.
Uh And you know,
if we're gonna,
if we're gonna evaluate outcomes and achievements,
(19:04):
et cetera,
you know,
social,
emotional,
uh you know,
all these and,
and,
and,
and uh academic achievements,
then we should have these kids and we're gonna ask these kids to run a race,
we should all have them start at the same place,
right?
As an example.
Um And so I was,
you know,
making investments in the bonds that,
that the school district of Philadelphia was issuing so that they could have money to go out and,
(19:27):
and build new buildings.
I'm following you.
But help me understand like that's great that,
that,
that creates impact right there.
But,
but like when you talk about like an inequality gap,
right?
Help like what's the last mile there?
How do you,
how do you,
how do you shrink the inequality?
Well,
I mean,
we shrink the inequality one at a time but we're specifically uplifting and centering.
(19:50):
Uh this disinvested um,
and this excluded community,
right.
So,
um,
so for example,
within the space of education,
we wouldn't,
uh,
we wouldn't invest in any school district that didn't have at least 60% of its enrollment qualifying for free or reduced price meals.
Right?
So you are so like I'm not really interested,
(20:11):
you know,
you,
well,
I think it's important that folks in Beverly Hills,
uh,
unified school district go to school,
you know,
have,
have great,
have great facilities.
I'm not really interested in Beverly Hills because my,
my guess is that they have the tax base,
they have the wherewithal to,
to access markets uh at uh optimal,
(20:32):
if not uh you know,
at,
at the lowest cost of capital.
Whereas other,
where,
whereas other communities specifically um uh disinvested communities,
poor communities have had a hard time maximizing uh or even optimizing their lowest cost of capital.
So that's where I come in.
Um And I'm specifically centering and uplifting these communities uh and part and trying to part and actually through the,
(20:56):
through the um due diligence process trying to uh partner and collaborate with them.
Obviously,
I've II I think I've,
I've found something that's in,
that's uh positive and endearing and very constructive about what this particular um entity,
this municipal entity is doing to combat this investment,
to combat um uh you know,
(21:18):
being underresourced for so long and it's about partnering and,
and,
and basically asking questions that they haven't been asked before and understanding,
do they have a handle?
And do they have a great understanding of,
of the task at hand and how they're going and what's the vision and what's the strategy to get there to reduce these disparities?
So whether it's in the physical environment of a school or even think about it for,
(21:41):
it's more,
it's more,
it's more tangible,
although it's certainly more,
um,
long range,
uh a longer time,
time perspective in health care,
right?
There are so many places across the country where,
you know,
communities exist and within,
you know,
just a couple of miles of two different communities,
the life expectancy differential can be up to 30 years,
(22:02):
right?
So a perfect example of that is in Boston,
not to flavor the point,
but in Boston uh back baby can Hill the I'm I'm rounding here.
The average life expectancy of someone who lives there is about 90 is about 90.
That's a very,
very wealthy community.
About 2 to 3 miles away is a community called Roxbury Maan.
Uh And uh the life expectancy there is,
is about 60.
(22:23):
Um And so,
you know,
again,
that should be abort to any investor.
Why do we tolerate this as a society?
How do we uh try to reduce that gap?
And part of that it would be um investing in some in,
in,
in,
in a hospital called Boston Medical Center,
which is like the foremost uh institution dealing with the uh social determinants of health.
(22:43):
So we think about how do we stay healthy if we don't have access to shelter,
to quality shelter,
to nutrition,
to save communities duties to transportation to child care.
Um This is an institution that not only provides a very uh a top notch high quality product within the confine medical product within the confines of the four walls,
but are actually working just as hard,
if not harder outside the four walls uh to,
(23:07):
to improve the health and well being of their community.
And,
and at some point in time,
that's going to result in an increase uh in um and the life expected for that community.
And that's something that I want to support.
That's something that I want to center.
That's something that I want to uplift and that's impact.
So,
you know,
I,
what I'm taking away from this is I always talk about my whole thing is about being intentional,
(23:30):
being an intentional business and effectively,
what I heard heard you say is that how do you get the impact?
You're really intentional about where the money goes.
It's not just about giving municipalities money,
but it's like,
it's like doing the thought work and saying,
who needs it?
Where can we actually take this capital to take this money and shrink the gap because there are parts of our community that are struggling and underperforming.
(23:54):
Yes.
What I would also say is like,
that's the first generation of what we do.
And uh the second generation of what we do is taking that advocacy and that activism to the,
to,
to,
to another level.
And basically saying,
well,
how do we partner with this organization going forward?
And if they,
you know,
in,
in terms of various projects that they need?
But again,
part,
a lot of,
a lot of this is how do we change the allocation of capital that is historically kind of gone to uh wealthier communities at the expense of,
(24:21):
of poor communities.
And,
and how do we turn that around?
And that's by bringing other impact investors together uh to intentionally,
and you mentioned the word intentional to intentionally do this work,
which is,
you know,
directly partnering with these communities uh in helping through technical assistance,
do some due diligence around the infrastructure that they,
(24:44):
that they want,
that they need.
And,
and it's really from,
from a grassroots perspective and then how do we bring that uh as,
as financial folks,
how do we be vessels to bring the financial stack to bear to provide the community,
what it needs and what it wants?
Um And so there's,
you know,
there's activism and advocacy around that.
(25:04):
Um And you know that that's,
that's um just as essential to me anyway,
as making the original investment.
So,
yeah,
I mean,
what you're offering is basically a lot more than money.
You talk about capital,
money going into these places.
But what you're offering is not just a source of funding,
but you're offering a partnership to help them identify and actually solve the problems like how to use the money in a way that's gonna get the outcomes that they want.
(25:30):
So you're,
you're,
you're creating a longer term partnership between this group of investors and,
and the cities and municipalities.
One thing that really strikes me about what you're saying is I,
I've said so long for so,
for so long when I was in corporate and then you can see it in politics right now that um our budget is our values,
what you put in your budget directly reflects what is important to you.
(25:55):
Um It strikes me that one of the major innovations,
what you're talking about is this is all happening outside of taxpayer funded initiatives.
You're raising money basically from private organizations to do the work.
So it's not as if I am I wrong about that.
Well,
I mean,
I would say that if I if,
if we can't raise,
(26:16):
if we can't raise funds to manage,
uh then we can't make those investments,
right?
So there's a right,
there's a cycle here.
Um And so I have spent an inordinate amount of time over the last,
you know,
5 to 10 years being a missionary and a proselytizer around what you just mentioned in terms of uplifting certain values that whenever we purchase something,
(26:37):
there's,
there's an expression of a value in that and um to many of financial advisors dismay in the past,
I have often said,
I don't really care if you invest with me or not.
The question becomes,
I just really wanna raise your,
I wanna raise uh awareness that how we make these investments and where we make these investments is really,
(27:00):
really important um to society as a whole.
You know.
Do I think I do it better than,
than most?
Yeah,
I do.
But I,
I'm,
I'm,
I'm loathe to say that.
I'm hesitant to say that.
But the idea here is,
yeah,
we,
we can change,
we can change community.
We uh and uh we can really change kind of the way capital.
(27:21):
I truly believe wholeheartedly believe that we can,
you know,
change the way capital is allocated that it,
that,
you know,
when you asked me before,
in terms of,
you know,
traditional asset managers and the investment banking and Wall Street and whatnot.
And I just think that like,
you know,
Wall Street,
who am I to say this?
But I,
I know there's a lot of potential arrogance.
I don't mean it to sound arrogant as much as,
(27:41):
I mean,
to make it sound audacious.
So I,
I do think that allocation of capital has become bastardized and it's become a game and it's become a system to help certain,
you know,
rich white old men stay rich and white.
Uh Well,
actually,
I shouldn't say rich and white,
they're gonna always be white but rich,
they're not gonna change their whiteness,
but they can change their richness anyway.
(28:03):
Um But uh right.
But,
but,
but how,
how do we create a system that is far more inclusive,
that's far more holistic that is regenerative and transform as opposed to extractive.
And that's kind of what I'm trying to,
to bring to the,
to the table uh in various levels of success and failure and,
(28:24):
and whatnot.
But I have an idea.
So trying to pursue that I love.
So actually,
like one of the main big takeaways here is it's like you're really trying to bring Wall Street to work with main street in,
in a way to solve problems.
But you just said like so many times,
financial folks are like,
I don't care where you invest,
just invest with me.
And there's kind of like this unconsciousness about it.
(28:46):
Like there's this idea that's like,
ok,
well,
he's just gonna manage my money and then you kind of become removed from it and you don't really know.
I'm really curious,
what do you think individuals,
I'm talking about the average person on the street,
like boots on the ground,
living their day to day life.
What can they do to be more thoughtful about how they're saving money where their investments are going?
(29:07):
Like is there a way that we can just intermediate this so that we the average Joe can actually create an impact?
Yeah,
I mean,
I absolutely.
II,
I mean,
I,
I think that,
well,
well,
there's a couple of things,
one there aren't,
this obviously sounds,
this obviously sounds self serving.
Um,
but I guess that's why I'm on my test.
(29:29):
But anyway,
um,
there aren't there,
what I've found to date is that there really aren't a lot of thoughtful,
rigorous public market vehicles to do this work.
Right.
So,
so from ad,
so from a supply perspective,
there's a limited supply,
(29:49):
right?
And then there's this demand,
uh there's this demand perspective,
right?
And I think that what makes,
you know,
this idea,
you know,
potentially viable is this idea that is the,
is the notion that probably with over the next 20 over the next 20 to 25 years,
there's various estimates out there,
(30:10):
but around $70 trillion are going to change hands between generation,
you know,
between the,
the the white male patriarch.
And that's gonna,
you know what,
when they pass away,
that money is going to,
you know,
there's gonna be a dynastic transfer of wealth to women and their Children and what we know or what,
what,
what,
what,
what these women and Children have said is they want to better align their values with the way in which they invest,
(30:35):
right?
But again,
so,
so,
so we know that there's potentially demand,
but there's not a whole heck of a lot of rigorous thoughtful supply and on some level,
that's kind of what I'm trying to solve for both from a municipal perspective um through Clarion call capital,
but also not only just from a municipal perspective,
but also just from a fixed income perspective and a platform that can go global.
(30:59):
And my thoughts on that are,
are quite simply that I think equities,
public equities have been done to death around sustainability and and whatnot.
And I think it's very hard to do sustainability and particularly impact from a public um from a public equity perspective.
And I think because of some structural,
some structural market uh phenomenon like repressed rates for a very,
very long time fixed income hasn't been a uh an alternative for investors or a viable alternative alternative to investors.
(31:26):
Uh And now that we've seen rates rise uh quite dramatically,
you know,
now it has become uh a viable alternative and so there,
there,
there are planets are aligning in,
in a way.
Uh but to,
to,
to the point that you asked in terms of how can folks make impact,
you know,
uh at least through their investments,
we need,
(31:46):
we need more investment vehicles,
but also importantly,
we need more investment vehicles that are available to,
you know,
everyone.
And so,
you know,
generally speaking what we've seen in,
in and,
and this is just a,
I mean,
this is just a,
a trend and,
but it's a,
it's a very strong trend and,
and particularly in asset management and particularly as it relates to high net worth individuals,
(32:08):
everyone's looking to go up market,
everyone wants the 100 do you know the $100 million client?
And,
and above.
Um I think what's really interesting about a,
about impact investing is how do we democratize and socialize it?
And so yes,
in order to build a business,
you are probably going to have to rely,
at least in the very beginning,
you're gonna have to rely on,
on,
on generally speaking,
(32:28):
uh higher wealth uh individuals.
But at some point in time when you've reached uh sort of a running rate that is appropriate for any,
you know,
sort of any business,
it's really,
really important to socialize and democratize what you're doing so that everyone can participate in this.
Uh so that folks who are just graduating from college,
you know,
(32:48):
they're participating in,
you know,
and,
and,
and thinking about making their own investments uh early on,
you know,
we're not talking about AAA $500,000 minimum ticket size we're really talking about,
you know,
can we do it at 5000,
10,000,
25,000,
you know,
and are there you your uh economies of scale to be able to do that?
And I think there are,
(33:09):
but I think that again,
there's a,
a mismatch between supply and demand.
So,
I mean,
it strikes me though,
first of all,
a couple of uh a couple of definitions for those of you that are not familiar with fixed income and,
and equities,
equities are just,
it's the stock market,
fixed income is debt.
So investing in debt tre,
you know,
it could be treasury bonds,
(33:30):
it could be.
Yeah,
the municipal.
So iii I try,
I try,
I liken it to people who are,
who want to invest in equities and who do equities for a living are very optimistic.
Folks.
Um They're very helpful.
Uh And those who do debt are,
are very dour uh and uh depressed,
uh because the upside there isn't a whole heck of a lot of,
I mean,
(33:50):
generally speaking,
there's not like a whole heck of a lot of upside.
You can't hit,
you don't,
you don't invest in debt markets to hit a home run,
you invest in debt markets to hit singles and doubles.
Uh whereas,
you know,
everyone sort of dreams of,
well,
of,
of making the,
uh you know,
it's good investment inequities perfectly aligned with what you're trying to do because you're talking about making sustainable long term investments in communities that are gonna play out over over decades,
(34:15):
right?
That's not uh get as much growth and consumption as quickly as you can through,
you know,
overvalued stock appreciation.
Um You,
you said that I didn't,
but generally speaking.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I know.
I,
I hear you.
Um I,
I,
I'm a reformed Wall Street guy myself.
So II I get it.
Um One of the things you were just saying about like the demand though.
(34:37):
Like there's,
you know,
there's these shops that are popping up all over the place where it's like,
oh,
you know,
use our app and,
you know,
if you have like 15 cents left on your bill,
right,
like the remainder will go into your savings account.
Right.
I mean,
I think about even just the opportunities around crowdsourcing and how many people have,
like,
(34:57):
done,
go fund me and stuff.
I think the moment for democratization of the financial markets is here because the technology definitely enables it,
right?
And the impediment that I see that you're talking about is access to information.
Where can my money do the most good?
Like where can I get information or where can I self select myself into um a certain number of causes where I know my investment dollar will be put to uses that I agree with.
(35:27):
And so that's kind of what clarion call is trying to solve is what it sounds like.
Yeah,
it is.
II I would say that,
you know,
generally speaking and I,
I'm,
I'm painting with a very broad brush stroke here.
So take it with a grain of salt.
But when we invest in,
in public,
right?
Uh you know,
if we want,
you know,
if we want to invest in Google Meta,
uh Boeing Johnson and Johnson,
(35:50):
you know,
we generally speaking can go and just buy it.
You know,
the debt markets are a bit different and the municipal markets are really,
really different uh in the sense that within the municipal market,
there's about 50,000 issuers and about a million Qs.
So there's basically a million different types of things like line items of different bonds that you can buy.
(36:10):
Um And they just,
you know,
they,
they,
they're not always available,
in fact,
rarely are they available.
Um And so it is really,
really difficult um to go out and as an individual to go out and build a portfolio from scratch,
if you are not a sort of quote unquote professional investor uh within fixed income,
(36:34):
it's incredibly,
incredibly difficult,
the uh asymmetric information that exists,
whether,
you know,
uh one,
like what's the underlying credit fundamentals of the thing that I'm trying to buy two,
the bonds are,
you know,
if bonds are offered,
they're offered all over the place and at ridiculously high prices.
Uh but,
and mom and pop would have absolutely no notion of what that really,
(36:56):
what,
what that meant and they could get caught on the wrong side of that trade.
Um And so the fixed income markets and particularly the municipal market is really not set up for Mr and Mrs Smith if you will um to build portfolios from scratch.
And so you're kind of,
I mean,
I,
I I'm not,
obviously it's also self serving that you should sort of seek out some advice from,
(37:19):
you know,
some,
some practitioners,
some professional practitioners,
I think that's really,
really be true and based on the experiences that I've had uh trying to build portfolios um for others,
uh you know,
it,
it,
it,
it can be mind numbing and it can be incredibly difficult to do.
Um And so it's not,
you know,
like it's,
(37:39):
this is not for the masses,
it's just,
it's just,
it's the way the,
the way the um industry is set up currently,
it is not for the masses.
Um Now we can argue whether there's,
you know,
a conspiracy or we can argue whether that's intentional or not.
But the idea here is,
it's really,
um,
it's really hard to do.
(38:00):
Uh And can we through technology potentially uh fintech,
can we make it easier?
I would argue that's gonna be a hard,
that's gonna be a hard thing to do just because based on disclosure rules and,
um,
there's a,
a general II I,
it's,
it's,
it's difficult to do,
not impossible.
Uh,
but certainly improvements around disclosure uh within the municipal market is certainly something that we're,
(38:22):
you know,
looking for.
We're actually looking to drive.
So it's,
it's one thing to drive financial disclosure.
But what about sort of the social environmental disclosure and,
and the risks that these entities face um going forward,
right?
Um We need to sort of standardize some of that stuff as well and I think that will help others,
um try if you wanna try to do this on your own.
Uh it will help,
uh,
help do that.
(38:42):
But that,
but I don't think we're,
I don't think we're there yet.
Um,
and it'll be a while before we get there,
uh,
to,
you know,
where it,
it really is easier for folks to do this on their own.
Well,
it's interesting because,
uh,
we're almost 12 years almost to the day.
Not quite,
um,
you know,
(39:02):
marking the occupy Wall Street movement,
I guess.
Right.
Which was,
which was definitely 14,
like 14 years,
right?
It is 5 15,
actually,
it is the 15th anniversary,
the 15th.
Yeah,
I had 2008.
0,
yeah.
Ok.
I was,
I was in North Carolina driving down the street down the highway as the markets were imploding on my way to my sister's.
(39:26):
So neither here nor there.
So that was an interesting moment because here you have like,
it was kind of almost definition countercultural with people sitting and protesting for weeks on end,
months on end,
right?
Um Against the systems of Wall Street and specifically the idea of and inequality and,
(39:49):
and equity was front and center in that conversation.
What you're talking about is feels to me like it is,
um I would say spiritually aligned for lack of a better word,
but you're actually working within the institution,
the way Wall Street works to try to get your,
so your tactics and your strategies are totally different.
(40:11):
What have we learned if anything about the financial system and its role in inequality in the last 15 years.
What would you reflect on there?
That's a really good question.
Um,
unfortunately,
um,
wealth inequality,
uh,
the racial wealth gap,
um,
have all gotten worse.
(40:32):
Um,
so,
uh,
so whatever we've,
whatever we've tried to do or have,
uh,
done over the last 15,
25 50 years,
um,
has not worked.
So I think that requires a,
a reset.
Uh,
you know,
there,
there are various folks out there.
(40:52):
Um you know,
trying uh very hard to think about and to address the racial wealth gap,
whether that be through reparations,
whether that be through baby bonds,
whether that be for guaranteed income.
Um There are a whole bunch of projects out there and,
and whatnot.
I think that,
yeah,
it's gonna require,
it's gonna require uh all hands on deck,
(41:14):
it's gonna require government at all levels.
It's gonna require philanthropy,
it's gonna require investors to take a different perspective.
Uh And to understand,
you know,
uh that when all of us do,
you know,
when,
when the least,
uh the least,
well in our community do well,
uh we all do well and we all do better.
Um You know,
(41:34):
and so as I reflect on,
you know,
as I reflect on my work and I reflect on changes,
um I would actually argue there hasn't been any change.
Um In fact,
um I think various systems and um scaffolding have just hardened and that's kind of depressing and it's,
(41:55):
it's not,
um,
it,
it's depressing and,
um,
kind of have to double down on,
on trying to change that.
Um,
so I don't really iii,
I,
you know,
it's one of those things where you think historically,
there,
there are,
there are moments in time where,
where there is potential for change and,
and so,
yes,
2000,
2008,
(42:15):
the,
the,
uh,
the bank crisis,
you know,
we think about uh the civil rights movement and the rebellions of 1960 7,
1965 67 68.
And even the,
you know,
the Kerner Commission report that was written and published in 1968 tried to diagnose the problems that led to the rebellions,
uh the urban rebellions uh here in the United States.
(42:37):
And,
you know,
it was,
you know,
we have,
uh you know,
two societies,
um you know,
separate and unequal,
right?
And,
and uh if you look at the things that the issues that were being debated and talked about,
you know,
50 years ago,
60 years ago,
they still exist,
those disparities still exist.
So that's very disappointing and it's very disheartening,
(42:59):
but it's also an opportunity.
Uh And it's also sort of a,
um just a,
a clarion call if you will,
a clarion call um to uh a clarion call to make change.
And that's kind of what I'm,
you know,
that's kind of what I set out to do.
And that's what the,
you know,
that,
that is,
that is precisely uh what,
(43:19):
uh the name of the business.
That's what I wanna do.
And that's what it suggests is that there's,
you know,
it's,
it's,
it's time,
uh,
you know,
from an environmental uh perspective,
these are existential issues.
Uh and we're running out of time,
um from a social perspective,
we're running out of time.
Um And uh we have to do things differently than what we've done in the past uh dramatically.
(43:45):
So,
and I wanna be a part of that.
Uh And I want to contribute to the solution around some of these problems.
We,
there is no one solution.
Um But there are,
you know,
I,
I wanna be an arrow in the quiver of these solutions.
And when I say,
I,
I don't mean I meaning Eric Glass as much as,
I mean,
you know,
(44:05):
um the finance industry uh and going back to its roots,
which was to uh you know,
fund growth,
fund growth,
uh fund individuals,
fund communities.
Uh Right.
It wasn't about um financial wizardry and engineering.
Um You know,
I,
I'm fine with people uh participating in a capitalist system,
(44:29):
you know,
iii I think it,
what it does spur competition,
it does spur but it,
but all things can be bastardized and I think that um all systems can be bastardized and I think uh capitalism is broken.
Uh Certainly neoliberal capitalism is broken.
Uh And we need to take a new fresh look uh at how to uplift and center um excluded and disinvested communities.
(44:53):
So,
if people wanted to get in touch with you and find out more about how they can get smart on their own investing or even just,
you know,
get some more resources because I know you're big on the education front.
How could they best contact you?
Well,
Michael,
they can uh email me at Eric dot glass uh at Clarion call capital dot com.
(45:13):
Um And I'd be happy to uh to uh start discussions and engage in conversations with folks who are sort of interested in uh predisposed to think uh you know,
in,
in ways that uh hopefully we can have a meaningful,
significant impact on uh sort of the,
(45:33):
the growth and sustainability of communities.
So,
um so yeah,
so that would probably be the best way to go about doing that.
Awesome.
Well,
thank you for walking us through social impact investing today and uh our eyes are gonna be on uh on your work out there because it's important and it's disruptive and it's need it.
(45:56):
So,
thank you for everything that you do.
Well,
thank you very much for uh for highlighting the work.
And uh again,
given the platform,
it's an absolute pleasure talking to you as always.
Thank you,
always,
great to talk to you as well.
You can find Michael Messer at discerning strategies dot com.
Set up a free 20 minute consultation.
(46:17):
Clarify your goals,
scale your business,
amplify your impact,
discerning strategies dot com.
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.