December 8, 2023 • 47 mins
Believe it or not, TRUST is a depleting resource. Business, Executive and Career Coach Michael Messer is raising the curtain on the pillars of trust within the workplace. Michael says it's not just about commitment, it's also about doing some forensics internally. What message are you sending out to your team, employees, and the community?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
What does growth look like in your business in your life as a business owner,
executive or individual,
you can live and lead with intention to create the change you want to see in your community and the world.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies Podcast,
a place where we can see clearly and act wisely.
(00:31):
Hi.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies podcast.
I'm Dee Daniels and I'm here with Michael Messer coach extraordinaire.
At least that's what I've heard.
People call you on the street,
Michael.
Um That's,
that's,
I'm not,
I'm not sure about the veracity of that,
but,
you know,
ok,
we'll go with it for a second.
I am.
I'm thrilled to have this conversation with you.
(00:53):
I think this,
it's such a timely conversation we're about to have too.
It's a very important conversation that I think reflects on so many conversations that you have with a lot of your clients.
I think.
Um It's also something that entrepreneurs,
business owners,
uh nonprofit leaders,
we have this,
(01:14):
um we have this line of conversation that revolves around our topic today,
which is really one big juicy word and that is trust,
you know,
it's interesting.
I don't think the average person thinks about trust in their day to day,
like,
consciously and,
and if you do,
it's usually in the context of like,
(01:36):
oh man,
I don't know about this person.
Like,
it's usually in the negative,
like you kind of know it when you don't see it.
I actually think trust is the number one thing that is beneath everything in terms of your personal,
professional or business success.
That's a really bold statement.
(01:57):
I'm not the only person that thinks that I'm a bit of an acolyte of um of David Horsager who is um the CEO and founder of the Trust Edge Leadership Institute,
which for full disclosure,
I am a certified coaching partner of.
So this is an organization that not only do I believe in,
but I am all in on their mission.
And David says trust is your single biggest expense as a business and I believe him.
(02:22):
And I mean,
goodness,
he's built an entire uh business name around it,
you know,
having trust in the name that's kind of a big deal.
Trust is in the name.
He's actually been doing um this research uh for like 20 years on the role of trust in business.
And he's a New York Times best selling author.
Uh He wrote the trust uh the trust edge,
(02:45):
how top leaders gain faster results,
deeper relationship and a stronger bottle of wine.
And he's really built his life work around um helping people like me as a coach,
but also business leaders and companies really understand how can you use trust and build trust for advantage.
And when I first heard him speak,
I was like,
(03:06):
ok,
this is kind of interesting.
And then the more I got into it and the more I started studying it,
it was like,
wow,
it,
it's not,
it,
it is like the X factor for me,
particularly in the context of socially responsible business because think about it,
socially,
ethically responsible businesses are fundamentally,
it's about having a business model that emphasizes the importance of trust because you are recognizing as part of your business,
(03:33):
a mutual set of obligations between the company that you're running your employees,
your customer,
your community and the environment at large and you don't get to do that work unless you build trust.
And so I really do see it as kind of like the underlying factor that lies beneath so many of the issues and problems that businesses can have,
(03:58):
but also individuals.
And what's interesting too,
Michael is I think,
and we talk about this a lot um on this podcast about building relationships.
And what's interesting to me is how many people are involved in the relationship process when it comes to the business,
when it comes to nonprofits,
(04:20):
when it comes to entrepreneurs running their own business,
single-handedly doing it.
We're talking relationships and it's between all of those people that,
that you just mentioned it is a web of relationships with seemingly trust at the,
at the core of it.
Absolutely.
You know,
business is about creating relationships and creating clarity around what it is that you do,
(04:48):
you offer the benefits that you bring and connecting with somebody so that they can receive and understand that you don't get to sell anything unless you have created at least a a minimum amount of trust with your customer,
right?
People purchase products and services that they trust.
So how are you gonna do that?
If you're a leader,
let's say just how you show up,
(05:10):
maybe you're not running a company,
but maybe you're just showing up to work every single day.
Trust determines whether people are gonna follow you.
Are they gonna believe you?
Are they gonna get behind your vision that you're creating um marketing?
Like if you're gonna put out a,
a marketing message to connect with whoever,
how do you create trust in the message that you're putting out there?
(05:32):
Right?
It's,
it all comes down to trust.
So,
you know,
it's one of these things that we don't consciously think about every day,
but we should because we,
you know,
I'm gonna use my favorite word,
intentional.
You can intentionally do things to build trust and by doing that,
gosh,
how much further ahead is your business to your career or your life gonna be?
(05:55):
Because you're actually creating an ecosystem of people and relationships that wanna be connected with you and don't you think too,
all of us are using trust a trust filter like right from the get go no matter which position we're in.
Like,
say you,
you put out that marketing piece and I'm the customer,
potential customer reading it.
(06:17):
I I'm,
I'm reading it with my trust filter from the Get go.
Yeah.
And we're not even aware of it half the time,
right?
Like why,
what makes you stop?
Like,
you know,
you,
you talk about doom scrolling,
you know,
you like what makes you go and stop and read something that shows across your Facebook or your linkedin feed,
right?
Oh,
I know this person.
(06:37):
I trust what they have to say.
I'm kind of curious what they're gonna do,
right?
Or um,
sometimes it's the reverse.
Like,
I think we've gotten into a place in society where like kind of the more outrageous,
crazy voices kind of get elevated,
but that's also part of the trust filter,
right?
Which is like,
I don't trust this person so I need to know what they're saying so that I can protect myself against it.
(06:59):
Right?
Like,
that's a reaction that some people are having right now in the world.
It's true.
And then,
gosh,
you throw in this time of year.
I mean,
here we are in the holidays and how many new marketing ads are,
you know,
thrown out there and,
and all of these people,
it maybe it's someone,
someone fundraising for something.
Maybe it's,
(07:20):
you know,
a,
a lot of that's going on.
We just had giving Tuesday not that long ago.
And there's trust filter boom from the get go where you're like,
hm,
how do I feel about this company or what they're coming,
how they're coming across and the message they're presenting,
it's immediate and you don't even really think about it.
You're right.
(07:40):
So,
what's so interesting is just this morning?
as a matter of fact,
I ran across an article that was from,
I think July of this year.
So July of 2023 and it was an Axius Harris poll of the best and worst brands.
And so they went out and they pulled all these people about their feelings,
reputation around brands and there were like 100 of them on this list.
(08:04):
And what was interesting is uh there were a couple of dimensions that they were looking at,
they were looking at character.
So that's interesting,
the character of the company or the brand,
the trajectory.
So people's perception of where the company was going,
trust was an actual category.
And I would argue that some of these other categories actually feed into trust,
(08:25):
like character is actually part of trust,
believe it or not,
culture,
ethics,
citizenship.
Gosh,
that sounds like they might be related to trust,
right?
Vision growth and of course,
products and services.
And what was really interesting about this is if you looked at the big movers,
the single biggest mover in the negative direction out of this 100 brands was Tesla.
(08:51):
Wow.
In one year,
they went from being the 12th most I I would say respected or have the 12th best reputation as a brand to number 62.
And what was interesting is when you dug in to what was beneath that change.
(09:16):
Consumers ranked trust in the brand as only 85 out of 100 that they surveyed and asked about.
So it was almost at the bottom,
it was in the bottom quartile of trust.
And so think of how much brand value Tesla lost in one year because of a loss of trust.
(09:39):
And what was interesting is there was a similar effect um in terms of consumer perception of character,
culture,
ethics and citizenship for that brand,
those dimensions,
all of which were basically in the bo bottom quartile of the companies they asked about.
So it really does have a,
(09:59):
a very material bearing on your company and your perception.
And I would argue that each of us is a brand,
our businesses are a brand,
a professional brand.
When we walk into work,
the brand that we take out into the community when we interact with our,
with our,
our friends,
family,
um and neighbors,
(10:21):
right?
Um Trust matters,
it does,
it's huge and you're right,
I'm thinking about too,
you know,
even when you're working as a uh let's say you were running your company and you are working from that angle and you're partnering with somebody or you're,
um,
you,
you,
you start a relationship with a nonprofit and any part of that relationship,
(10:45):
that partnership,
that nonprofit relationship goes south because of something that you did not do correctly or you,
you,
something that seemed shady,
the trust is immediately affected,
you know what's really interesting?
And this was the first,
(11:06):
this was the first nugget from David.
I'm gonna be a little bit of a,
I'm gonna be a bit of an ad for him today,
um,
on this podcast just because I,
I respect his,
his work so much.
But this thing that you're touching on right now was the thing that hooked me on getting interested in this because he makes the point that we all think we've built up a certain amount of trust.
(11:30):
I'm,
I'm a good person when I go out,
I,
I deal with,
with others with integrity and I'm honest and I've got character and all that stuff.
And so I have built trust.
What we fail to understand is trust is a depleting resource.
It is,
it is very much a what have you done for me lately?
(11:52):
Kind of a,
a thing which is we could have done a lot to build up a lot of trust.
But oftentimes and I see this with clients that I work with as well.
Um One day,
no one's done anything awful like there hasn't been a smoking gun or anything hideous happening internally.
But then there's this absence of trust and in this kind of suspicion and the culture has kind of gone a little bit sideways and it's kind of through passive neglect because this depleting resource has been going down and hasn't been nurtured and cultivated.
(12:28):
And suddenly there's a problem and it's so slow and insidious that you kind of wake up one day and it's like,
oh gosh,
we have work to do good news is you can always rebuild trust.
There.
You,
there are ways very intentional ways that anyone or any business can build trust um and take action.
(12:54):
So this isn't something that we have to be victims about.
We can be intentional about how we want to show up and how we wanna start creating strategies for ourselves to build trust.
I'm glad you set that up because I think there was this moment of when you're talking about neglect and it being uh uh uh uh a sort of a leaky faucet resource sometimes with the trust.
(13:19):
I think there was this moment of fear where it's like,
wait a minute,
I think I hear you saying,
even if we go quiet as a supportive company for something or in a relationship with whoever,
even if we go quiet in that relationship,
that could mean the trust factor is,
is,
you know,
messed up all of a sudden.
(13:40):
Yeah.
It's so funny because so much of that trust is related to communication.
Uh The first pillar of trust is clarity.
Are you clear,
people trust that which is clear and unambiguous and not overly complicated?
OK.
So when you think about putting a message out,
(14:03):
this is particularly true of organizations that are quote unquote trying to build culture,
um It's almost like we will now be X,
we've talked about this in the past,
like here is our new culture,
right?
OK.
And then it's like they,
they put some posters up on the wall or whatever and then you're kind of like or what does this mean?
Um People do not get the message unless the message is repeated at least once every three weeks.
(14:32):
OK.
So you had your all hands meeting everybody got the memo,
you said it to their face once,
not enough.
That's where the leak comes in because people think,
well,
we did what we were supposed to do.
You did everything right in the first instance,
except follow up and reinforce that.
And that is the thing that allows the trust to start slowly depleting and diminishing over time among other things.
(15:00):
There's many things that can uh that are kind of counter forces to building trust in the company.
But um that's just a good example of we did all the right things and yet we're not where we thought we needed to be.
So,
in this scenario that you've,
you've uh got in my mind now I've got a leaky faucet with trust and I'm calling you.
(15:20):
Are you the plumber in this?
I think you might be,
you might be,
you might be the plumber.
And so setting this up,
like,
there's a way to rebuild trust.
And I think that was something I wanted to hang my hat on when you said that because I think no matter what the relationship is,
we're all a little afraid of.
(15:40):
like,
hm,
did we mess that up to the point where we can't rebuild this?
But you're saying we can,
you absolutely can.
I mean,
nothing is a lost cause.
But the thing is,
it takes commitment and it takes a little bit of,
um,
I would say forensics to really get at what the root cause is because the,
(16:03):
any organization or team or even individual because I can,
I can actually use this trust framework,
working with executives,
one on one about how they're showing up to their team.
So it doesn't really matter the context,
but the components of trust uh are gonna vary some things you're gonna be really great at.
(16:24):
And people want to say,
well,
that's what trust is and we're really great in that one thing.
Yeah.
Well,
it's actually a combination of about eight things that create trust.
And if any one of those things is really weak or actually maybe negative,
it is really easy to pull the whole thing down.
Right?
And so you have to ask yourself,
(16:46):
where have we maybe gotten off track and what's the low hanging fruit for us to focus on right now in terms of rebuilding that trust.
And I do come in to companies,
uh and I do work with executives directly on how to tactically figure out what is the thing that's gonna yield the best benefit in terms of building trust and creating the culture they want.
(17:08):
I love to Michael that,
you know,
you don't just work with executives in that,
in that arm.
You're working with everybody on that same topic.
You know,
I'm thinking about some of the nonprofits that you've worked very,
very closely with.
Um and really doing that forensic piece that you're talking about,
like you've really honed in on the messaging because it really takes all of that like the messaging to the public.
(17:34):
What's the public perception?
What's the internal structure looking like within your organization?
I mean,
it this can grow,
go across the board to all kinds of categories.
Oh yeah,
like I do a lot of strategic planning and you know,
when we talk about one of the the first pillars of trust that I mentioned is the the pillar of clarity and it's about understanding the message and making sure people under,
(18:02):
you know,
people see that it is clear and unambiguous and not overly complicated,
right?
So that literally can show up in terms of how you set up your strategic planning,
right?
It's,
it's,
it's like uh what are your goals?
Is everybody on the same page with that?
Like that is one way to build trust is to have a plan that people actually can see,
(18:27):
touch,
feel and understand.
Um The other thing too is how you're communicating around it,
right?
So what do you want people to take away?
Uh Are you explaining the outcomes that you want?
So if I'm a manager and you're an employee,
do they understand or do they share your vision of what success looks like?
(18:50):
Is there a deadline?
Are you clear about when you want this?
And did you create space for people to bring their topics in and explore them so that their needs are met in the process?
So are they able to clarify for themselves?
What's not clear or what's important to them or how they wanna show up or what your expectation is?
(19:15):
That's really what communication is about.
I,
I want us to talk more about the other pillars,
but I'm,
what I'm hearing you say too is trust.
Uh a big piece inside the trust word is communication.
So much of that,
what,
what you just said was about communication.
(19:37):
Absolutely.
It's,
it's the first thing when I come in and I would and I do work with like a workshop or,
or you know,
if I have an engagement around culture nine times out of 10,
I'm gonna start with the pillar of clarity is everyone clear on where you're supposed to be going because think about it,
(19:57):
you can start with other things.
But if nobody really,
if,
if people aren't rowing in the same direction,
what's gonna happen?
Your,
your robot is just gonna be spinning in circles,
right?
And you're not really gonna be going anywhere and no one's gonna be feeling good.
So let's make sure that everybody's on the same page in terms of the direction we need to go or that the messages that are being sent or being received in the way that you expect them to be.
(20:23):
That's a big deal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't know about you Michael,
but I've been,
I've worked at places with companies where I was in the spinning robot where I,
I was so confused about what we're doing,
where we're going and it's kind of exhausting when you're committed when you're committed trying to be in it.
It's kind of exhausting it.
It is.
(20:43):
I,
you know,
I used to work for a pretty big multinational organization.
Um and they would come up with things like OK,
we're now going to do X here's our big initiative,
we're gonna do X and,
and they did it.
This initiative was for all the right reasons.
It was,
you know,
we wanna be good stewards in our community.
(21:06):
Uh We want to create a brand around inclusiveness and sustainability and the future and cooper operation and all of the things that are values that I personally hold important.
But on your point around clarity,
(21:27):
what happened,
there was this big gap in terms of like,
OK,
well,
now that this is happening and this is the new thing,
there wasn't communication as to what does that look like in a timely manner?
Second thing when the communication did come out,
it was like so complicated and it was like,
(21:48):
you know,
here are flow charts of our process.
So if then like,
you know,
you're going through some sort of algorithmic like exploration of how to get to the answer.
And people are like,
gosh,
this feels crappy.
This sucks.
This is really complicated and I don't want to engage in it.
And so then what happens?
(22:09):
You kind of lost your audience.
Uh They're not going to be an evangelist of your message.
They're not gonna have a lived experience that actually supports this brand vision that you wanna bring out into the marketplace and it all just feels really inauthentic to everybody involved.
So clarity,
(22:29):
simplicity is important.
Simple,
clear,
not overly engineered.
Yeah,
I don't wanna feel,
I don't want to feel like I'm doing like a,
a mad lib with chemistry and algebra involved and to try to get from point A to point B when we all really want to be doing it.
We do,
we wanna,
we wanna be involved.
Ee Exactly.
(22:49):
Exactly.
Can we get a peek into?
So clarity pillar number one can we get a peek into the other pillars.
Yeah.
So another one that when it was mentioned,
I was like,
oh,
I love this compassion.
Now I would,
I would throw out there that compassion is not an emotion that many people feel in the workplace these days.
(23:17):
And so we wonder why we're having this quote crisis and trust,
but people but faith in those who care beyond themselves,
right?
And this is so central to my own vision of business.
You know,
I always say that I wanna put people back at the center of business and that,
(23:37):
you know,
businesses exist to serve people and not the other way around because I feel like so many people are being shuttered into this,
this box of,
well,
we have to serve these overlords of commerce,
right?
And there's no,
there's no sense of reciprocity,
(23:58):
there's no sense of um even individual value like that people have gotten commoditized and that is the antithesis of what compassion is about because compassion is about being seen and,
and being valued,
right?
(24:20):
For,
for,
for what you bring.
Um And so when I thought about it,
it just made so much sense to me because you know,
this management by scorecard mentality that's taken place.
Listen,
I'm a business coach.
I love metrics.
I know that you need objective benchmarks and stuff.
(24:42):
Uh It's to get the results,
you know what,
what you measure gets managed.
And I truly do believe that.
But I would also say,
can we measure things and can we manage things with a sense of compassion for the people that actually exist to do the work?
So,
(25:02):
yeah,
and really,
this is also with the crux of socially responsible business,
you cannot have a socially responsible or ethical business.
That doesn't that precludes this idea that you can create a compassionate workplace because it's about creating like coalitions within your company in the community for the better for the better of everybody,
(25:29):
right?
So this one was this one really kind of stuck with me?
Sometimes people say,
well,
how do I bring compassion into the workplace?
Natural question?
Like it's some,
I mean,
for some generations,
they're just not used to this idea or it feels very like hippyish or,
(25:52):
you know,
whatever,
there's really easy ways to demonstrate compassion.
Are you listening to people?
How often do managers just talk to their people?
Listen,
what did they have to say?
Communication and clarity actually goes two ways.
Do you appreciate the people?
(26:12):
Do you call out the good thing when you see it in the moment and celebrate people,
the number of people that have,
I've seen suffer under managers or leaders that feel threatened by successful people on their teams and don't give them recognition or appreciation for the work that they do.
(26:35):
You know,
it's,
it's,
it's,
it's shocking be present.
Don't be distracted.
Your people are coming to you for a reason pay attention,
take them seriously,
see the humanity in that person when they come and engage with you.
And then this is a more meta I would say,
but again,
(26:55):
very aligned with how I view business and strategies that I think personally are successful is um you know,
serve selflessly,
serve beyond yourself.
So how can you as an organization do something that moves the needle?
And this is a topic that we talk about all the time on this podcast,
right?
This is the reason why I think this strategy is so important and works because it creates one of the conditions for,
(27:24):
for trust and a culture to develop that are gonna retain your people,
connect authentically with your customers and create impact and therefore connection with your community.
That's it.
That reminds me of,
of uh I was,
I was working for a company and I had one of just the most fantastic uh leaders that I felt like I had ever had um in any of my jobs.
(27:53):
And I was like this,
this woman is everything she was.
She's exact,
she was the epitome of a great leader with compassion,
the compassion.
You're talking about where she called out moments of just fantastic recognition and,
and just she was so present,
never in a threatening moment uh at all with anybody else.
(28:15):
It was just,
it was so good and it gave me that example.
Um to then say that's what I want.
From now on like that's that I want those people to be in my life in my company.
I wanna,
I wanna support those people.
I wanna support those companies.
I mean,
people were making sales left and right in that company and I made a small sale and I got really excited about it and I ran to her office when she was about ready to leave for another meeting.
(28:44):
And I said,
oh my God,
I just made this $2000 sale and she got emotion that happy with me.
Like she was like,
oh,
that's amazing.
I just got chills.
Yes.
High five.
Let's do this.
I mean,
there are people making million dollar sales down the hall and I just made this $2000 sale and she was my cheerleader and I feel like that's what you're talking about.
(29:08):
Like it's,
that's gotta go all the way around for all the emotions.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And,
and the thing is you said,
you know,
I know that you now wanna seek that out like that's a person that you wanna look for and find in your next role or whatever.
(29:28):
Oh,
and this is why being the strongest drum so much,
which is like this market that we're in and this competition for talent that we're in has changed because more and more people,
our understanding that it is in fact possible to have an experience like you had,
it is possible to work for organizations that will appreciate you and will celebrate you and will treat you like a human.
(29:55):
Now,
there are far too few of them right now for my liking.
My,
my,
my mission vision purpose in doing what I do is to multiply by some factor a million,
the number of businesses out there,
they can take that energy that you experienced and,
(30:17):
and let it pervade their work force and their teams and their people every day because think of how much better our lives would be if that were the case,
no doubt,
right?
But this now gives companies an opportunity to compete with compassion.
They can hire ad Daniels now because you're looking for that compassionate person.
(30:39):
You're,
you're looking for that compassionate manager.
So um it isn't all about giving,
giving,
giving.
I think there's so much of a narrative around,
oh,
you know,
shit millennials want this and Gen X wants that and Gen Z wants this and they're entitled and uh all of this like things are different,
right?
Hm.
Get off my lawn.
(31:01):
Um But,
but it's really about competing right now for things on the basis of things that matter.
And I would argue compassion matters more than ever.
And it's huge.
Um And I,
I I'm so glad you put that as a pillar because I I'm not,
I mean,
we know that all of that makes so much sense but you pulling that out as a pillar is,
(31:25):
is really a billboard for,
you know,
these are the things,
these are the things we need to look at internally to,
you know,
make the calls to move the needle to maybe do something different,
have a different choice,
make a different choice,
you know,
and we're talking about building business,
keeping employees having a happier workplace,
(31:50):
you know?
Oh,
yeah,
this is fundamental stuff.
Yeah,
I,
I would like to take,
I wish I could take a full credit for some of these pillars.
But,
you know,
my own integrity and my own character,
character is a pillar of trust by the way.
So I'm building trust by disclosing.
This is,
you know,
this is all based on,
on really well researched information and uh you know,
(32:12):
it's empirical and it's been proven time and time again,
you know,
trusted Leadership Institute is the the forefront of this and David's done a lot of this work.
So um I am passing the good message,
so to speak that you can actually peel the onion and look under the hood of what is involved in trust and you can focus on things very tactically to improve it.
(32:37):
I love that.
Um So we've got clarity.
We've got compassion.
What's next character?
Hm.
So character,
people notice those who do what is right over what is easy.
Uh This takes me back to things that we've already talked about in other episodes.
Uh you know,
um if you're leading with your values and trading in and out because you get pushback from people that disagree,
(33:04):
that undermines the pillar of character.
And,
you know,
we've seen this with LGBT Q plus Organizations with Pride Month.
You know,
we've seen uh we've seen it in so many different contexts where somebody tries to reach a demographic or put a social message out there and then there's some eruption from some corner of the multiverse and suddenly it goes away.
(33:30):
Um That's not character,
that's,
that is a counter force to the pillar of character.
Uh and everybody that is affected directly or indirectly by those actions whose value is is reduced or denigrated as a result of,
of people doing what is easy versus doing what is hard and therefore,
(33:55):
right?
You lose trust.
There are many,
many organizations that I will not support because of that.
I don't think I'm unusual in that regard and it doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you're on.
You know,
you can have diametrically imposed beliefs from my own and that will still be true for you.
(34:17):
That's right.
Yeah.
And you know,
I was just thinking a rainbow graphic,
replace the word rainbow with whatever graphic,
a graphic of some sort of support does not make you a supporter does not make you true in character to what you're actually putting on your social media for that day or that week or that month.
(34:43):
Yeah,
100%.
How are you living your values?
It goes back to the conversation we had.
You have to live your values every single day.
They're not,
they're not tokens to be traded with your market or your employees because as soon as you trade them,
you've lost them.
And this is actually the reason why you've lost them because you've really done a number on your trust and it can take years to build that back.
(35:07):
I'm thinking too Michael about a,
you know,
a business owner,
uh,
you know,
uh CEO,
a leader of,
of name,
name,
the organization,
um,
wanting to do a check in on the values,
you know,
is that something,
is that something that,
you know,
it sounds really daunting maybe,
you know,
but maybe it's,
it's one of those things where it's like,
(35:28):
hey,
if,
if living my values here as,
as a company,
if that,
if that's gonna be the basis of trust and it's gonna be the basis of character and so many things public seeing this,
maybe I need to take a look under the hood at the values 100%.
Uh,
I,
I run across people all the time that are kind of maybe skeptical,
(35:50):
um,
about doing a really deep values exercise because they,
they view it as marketing or performative or virtue signaling or,
or whatever you wanna call it,
as I've said many times,
I don't view them that way.
I view that your values fundamentally as how,
what you're basing your decisions on And so when I go through a values exercise with an organization,
(36:12):
I did this recently with,
with a nonprofit,
you have to ask yourself what are the scenarios under which this value may be violated?
Would you sacrifice this value if dot dot dot Your heart's content came true,
right?
Whatever the situation is and if your answer is,
(36:33):
well,
maybe or hell yes,
maybe that's not the value you want to build your culture on.
Right.
That's,
it probably doesn't need to be on the list.
It can be important to you and you can,
you can still use that to guide your decision making.
But is it truly a value?
I would question that?
Right.
There's a lot of questioning that I feel like should go on in a,
(36:58):
in a lot of,
in a lot of businesses and a lot,
you know,
you think about some of these big,
big brands and they have to question that stuff pretty often if they're staying at the top of the trust list.
You know,
if,
if,
I mean,
we're talking about the numbers and the rankings not going from 12 down to 60 something,
(37:18):
you know,
if they,
if they have to stay,
they're looking under the hood pretty often at these things.
So,
you know,
it's interesting.
Who do you think the number one company on brand reputation was in 2023?
Mm Coca Cola?
Oh,
no,
I think Coke might have been pretty high up actually,
(37:38):
but the number one was Patagonia.
Patagonia.
They built their entire persona around being socially and environmentally responsible.
And when you want to talk about the,
the pillar of,
of character,
the founder who is a multi,
(38:00):
multi billionaire,
give it all away to a charitable trust.
There are very few things that signal character and build trust as much as something like that.
Right.
Right.
That's a perfect example of what we're talking about.
So if you pick the right values and you stick to them and you are steadfast,
(38:24):
you can see what the results are,
a very,
very successful company,
a beloved company,
a beloved brand.
And yet they're doing the thing that they say they're doing regardless.
Trust.
That's a big deal.
Right?
That's,
I mean,
that's what it says,
trustworthy.
We're trustworthy.
(38:44):
That's what that says.
Yeah.
Yeah,
we walk or talk.
Absolutely.
Um That was pillar number three.
How many pillars do we have?
We have a lot I could spend,
I could spend,
I could spend days on this and in fact,
I do.
Um but let me just touch on,
I'll,
I'll rattle them off for people that are just dying in suspense.
And then I'm gonna pick maybe one more uh to,
(39:08):
to talk about because it's not talked about enough,
I think.
Um So the other pillars are competence,
you know,
people are,
are trust,
organizations,
product services that stay fresh,
relevant and capable,
right?
Um You may be super trustworthy as producer,
(39:34):
but no,
no offense to you.
I'm not going to come to you for brain surgery because that's not your confidence,
right?
Like just basic,
right?
Thank you for that.
I appreciate it.
Exactly.
Like I don't think you want to be putting together.
Thank you.
Commitment.
People that uh believe in those who stand through adversity.
So when things get tough,
we were talking about this just now in,
in,
in connection with character um contribution.
(40:00):
Uh Are you getting results,
you know,
doing not saying builds trust that's basically,
and,
and those are intuitive.
I think people can connect with that consistency is another one little things done consistent,
consistently build trust.
(40:21):
OK.
Um So that's the one I personally have to work on because I,
you know,
I have a shiny object syndrome sometimes.
And so I,
I gotta like,
you know,
manage myself consistency like it's important.
Um But the one I,
the,
the last one that I really wanna,
I,
that I wanna maybe shine a light on because I think it's interesting is connection,
(40:46):
people trust those who are willing to connect and collaborate and think about the distrust that grows just because you don't know,
really know the people that you're in and around,
(41:09):
right?
Um I felt it.
So it was so weird in,
in,
in one of my old jobs um new people would show up and no,
and like if somebody introduced them or walked them around and introduced them.
Maybe it happened,
you know,
it,
it did happen on occasion,
but like maybe they were in a different team and they were kind of sitting next to you.
(41:31):
You could go months without ever talking to that person that does not build trust by the way,
because there's no connection,
there's like this weird barrier or energy around people,
right?
So one of the ways that organizations can build trust is really like,
again,
people talk about diversity,
equity inclusion.
It's about creating safe spaces where people can be seen and can feel connected.
(41:55):
That's fundamentally what it's about.
There is actually more that connects us,
then separates us.
I have worked and been privileged to travel all over the world in various capacities.
I've studied abroad,
I've lived abroad,
I've worked abroad um in pretty different places and regardless of background,
(42:20):
culture,
language,
all of it,
there is a humanity that unites us in connection is fundamentally about tapping into that shared humanity.
And I would love more companies to really be serious about that in an authentic way.
I love that.
I,
you know,
reminded me too.
Um We had a previous guest on several episodes ago,
(42:43):
Sandy Prost.
It reminded me if you and if you haven't listened to that episode,
go back and listen to it.
It's really,
really good.
It reminded me of how she was talking about how she connects,
you know,
with people at networking events and things of that nature.
She's like,
I never lead with the business.
You know,
I,
I always lead with that moment of connection.
Like she said,
I,
I'd rather know if you have dogs or cats at home or,
(43:04):
you know,
something like that and it does spark that immediate immediate connection,
something like that where it's like there's not a barrier there that you're talking about,
you know,
that you remove the barrier immediately.
Yeah.
You know,
it's funny.
Um I don't think I've told this story before.
If I have listeners,
you're gonna give me a pass.
(43:25):
We all live like Grace,
right?
But so I had this,
this neighbor that had not at work who had the office next to me.
He was my office neighbor and he wore his kind of professional persona was the curmudgeon older guy,
super cranky and he loved it.
(43:46):
He loved being the cranky old guy.
He was literally the get off my lawn guy.
Ok.
Um Really,
really conservative.
I am not probably figured that out.
Um had several daughters of,
of marriageable age.
Uh I'm gay and when I got married,
(44:08):
I was really nervous about his reaction because I had this whole image in my head about what he was gonna say or what he was gonna think about me or what that would create for me in terms of the dynamic at the office.
And so I kept it really on the down low as I was planning my wedding.
(44:31):
But at some point it came up that I was getting married and he was like,
oh,
you know,
I've,
I've married off three of my five daughters.
What part of the process are you at?
And we bonded over wedding planning in very different contexts.
And he became such a dear friend.
(44:52):
We had our differences,
but we were connected.
We found that thing that we could both talk about,
that was the starting point.
It was step one to creating a really genuine supportive connection and relationship that really served me well.
(45:14):
He,
you know,
he was a mentor in a lot of ways to me as I was coming up,
right?
Um And I just think about that in connection to connection,
right?
Um Is if we can find that thing to connect us rather than to divide us,
how much further we can come.
And so that's just my own little little story around that.
I love that it so basically it can happen.
(45:37):
Don't,
don't count it out because it can,
it can happen,
not only can it happen,
but I think there is an imperative for us to find ways to nurture that as hard as it may be.
II I think this is a great time of year.
A lot of people might go looking,
(45:57):
wanting to look,
maybe not wanting,
needing to look and wanting to look under the hood.
Um You know,
as the New Year approaches and what a great time to really have some,
some,
some really great guideposts along the way,
these guideposts of looking at clarity,
looking at compassion,
(46:18):
looking at connection and,
and all the other ones you mentioned,
what a great time to really dig into that and say,
where,
where could we tweak it here a little bit?
Yeah,
it's all about this time of the year and New Year's is about being intentional.
What do you want to see next year?
So people don't think about this type of stuff.
They don't think about how can I create more connection in my company.
(46:41):
But if you start looking at it and you do the research and you start thinking it through that very well,
could be the most important strategic decision you make all year and if you want to look a little deeper,
I know a guy.
Yeah.
You know,
I'm around,
if,
if,
if you think you might wanna do a little bit of investigation around what trust looks like in your organization or maybe you're a little bit worried about how the culture is feeling right now,
(47:08):
you know,
happy to have a call with you.
And uh we,
we can talk about the specifics.
I've got uh I've got a few tricks up my sleeve in this regard.
I love it.
Well,
Michael,
this has been good.
So until next time we'll,
we'll do it again soon.
All right,
thanks to,
you can find Michael Messer at discerning strategies.com set up a free 20 minute consultation.
(47:33):
Clarify your goals,
scale your business.
Amplify your impact.
Discerning strategies.com.
What does growth look like in your business in your life as a business owner,
executive or individual,
you can live and lead with intention to create the change you want to see in your community and the world.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies Podcast,
a place where we can see clearly and act wisely.
(00:31):
Hi.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies podcast.
I'm Dee Daniels and I'm here with Michael Messer coach extraordinaire.
At least that's what I've heard.
People call you on the street,
Michael.
Um That's,
that's,
I'm not,
I'm not sure about the veracity of that,
but,
you know,
ok,
we'll go with it for a second.
I am.
I'm thrilled to have this conversation with you.
(00:53):
I think this,
it's such a timely conversation we're about to have too.
It's a very important conversation that I think reflects on so many conversations that you have with a lot of your clients.
I think.
Um It's also something that entrepreneurs,
business owners,
uh nonprofit leaders,
we have this,
(01:14):
um we have this line of conversation that revolves around our topic today,
which is really one big juicy word and that is trust,
you know,
it's interesting.
I don't think the average person thinks about trust in their day to day,
like,
consciously and,
and if you do,
it's usually in the context of like,
(01:36):
oh man,
I don't know about this person.
Like,
it's usually in the negative,
like you kind of know it when you don't see it.
I actually think trust is the number one thing that is beneath everything in terms of your personal,
professional or business success.
That's a really bold statement.
(01:57):
I'm not the only person that thinks that I'm a bit of an acolyte of um of David Horsager who is um the CEO and founder of the Trust Edge Leadership Institute,
which for full disclosure,
I am a certified coaching partner of.
So this is an organization that not only do I believe in,
but I am all in on their mission.
And David says trust is your single biggest expense as a business and I believe him.
(02:22):
And I mean,
goodness,
he's built an entire uh business name around it,
you know,
having trust in the name that's kind of a big deal.
Trust is in the name.
He's actually been doing um this research uh for like 20 years on the role of trust in business.
And he's a New York Times best selling author.
Uh He wrote the trust uh the trust edge,
(02:45):
how top leaders gain faster results,
deeper relationship and a stronger bottle of wine.
And he's really built his life work around um helping people like me as a coach,
but also business leaders and companies really understand how can you use trust and build trust for advantage.
And when I first heard him speak,
I was like,
(03:06):
ok,
this is kind of interesting.
And then the more I got into it and the more I started studying it,
it was like,
wow,
it,
it's not,
it,
it is like the X factor for me,
particularly in the context of socially responsible business because think about it,
socially,
ethically responsible businesses are fundamentally,
it's about having a business model that emphasizes the importance of trust because you are recognizing as part of your business,
(03:33):
a mutual set of obligations between the company that you're running your employees,
your customer,
your community and the environment at large and you don't get to do that work unless you build trust.
And so I really do see it as kind of like the underlying factor that lies beneath so many of the issues and problems that businesses can have,
(03:58):
but also individuals.
And what's interesting too,
Michael is I think,
and we talk about this a lot um on this podcast about building relationships.
And what's interesting to me is how many people are involved in the relationship process when it comes to the business,
when it comes to nonprofits,
(04:20):
when it comes to entrepreneurs running their own business,
single-handedly doing it.
We're talking relationships and it's between all of those people that,
that you just mentioned it is a web of relationships with seemingly trust at the,
at the core of it.
Absolutely.
You know,
business is about creating relationships and creating clarity around what it is that you do,
(04:48):
you offer the benefits that you bring and connecting with somebody so that they can receive and understand that you don't get to sell anything unless you have created at least a a minimum amount of trust with your customer,
right?
People purchase products and services that they trust.
So how are you gonna do that?
If you're a leader,
let's say just how you show up,
(05:10):
maybe you're not running a company,
but maybe you're just showing up to work every single day.
Trust determines whether people are gonna follow you.
Are they gonna believe you?
Are they gonna get behind your vision that you're creating um marketing?
Like if you're gonna put out a,
a marketing message to connect with whoever,
how do you create trust in the message that you're putting out there?
(05:32):
Right?
It's,
it all comes down to trust.
So,
you know,
it's one of these things that we don't consciously think about every day,
but we should because we,
you know,
I'm gonna use my favorite word,
intentional.
You can intentionally do things to build trust and by doing that,
gosh,
how much further ahead is your business to your career or your life gonna be?
(05:55):
Because you're actually creating an ecosystem of people and relationships that wanna be connected with you and don't you think too,
all of us are using trust a trust filter like right from the get go no matter which position we're in.
Like,
say you,
you put out that marketing piece and I'm the customer,
potential customer reading it.
(06:17):
I I'm,
I'm reading it with my trust filter from the Get go.
Yeah.
And we're not even aware of it half the time,
right?
Like why,
what makes you stop?
Like,
you know,
you,
you talk about doom scrolling,
you know,
you like what makes you go and stop and read something that shows across your Facebook or your linkedin feed,
right?
Oh,
I know this person.
(06:37):
I trust what they have to say.
I'm kind of curious what they're gonna do,
right?
Or um,
sometimes it's the reverse.
Like,
I think we've gotten into a place in society where like kind of the more outrageous,
crazy voices kind of get elevated,
but that's also part of the trust filter,
right?
Which is like,
I don't trust this person so I need to know what they're saying so that I can protect myself against it.
(06:59):
Right?
Like,
that's a reaction that some people are having right now in the world.
It's true.
And then,
gosh,
you throw in this time of year.
I mean,
here we are in the holidays and how many new marketing ads are,
you know,
thrown out there and,
and all of these people,
it maybe it's someone,
someone fundraising for something.
Maybe it's,
(07:20):
you know,
a,
a lot of that's going on.
We just had giving Tuesday not that long ago.
And there's trust filter boom from the get go where you're like,
hm,
how do I feel about this company or what they're coming,
how they're coming across and the message they're presenting,
it's immediate and you don't even really think about it.
You're right.
(07:40):
So,
what's so interesting is just this morning?
as a matter of fact,
I ran across an article that was from,
I think July of this year.
So July of 2023 and it was an Axius Harris poll of the best and worst brands.
And so they went out and they pulled all these people about their feelings,
reputation around brands and there were like 100 of them on this list.
(08:04):
And what was interesting is uh there were a couple of dimensions that they were looking at,
they were looking at character.
So that's interesting,
the character of the company or the brand,
the trajectory.
So people's perception of where the company was going,
trust was an actual category.
And I would argue that some of these other categories actually feed into trust,
(08:25):
like character is actually part of trust,
believe it or not,
culture,
ethics,
citizenship.
Gosh,
that sounds like they might be related to trust,
right?
Vision growth and of course,
products and services.
And what was really interesting about this is if you looked at the big movers,
the single biggest mover in the negative direction out of this 100 brands was Tesla.
(08:51):
Wow.
In one year,
they went from being the 12th most I I would say respected or have the 12th best reputation as a brand to number 62.
And what was interesting is when you dug in to what was beneath that change.
(09:16):
Consumers ranked trust in the brand as only 85 out of 100 that they surveyed and asked about.
So it was almost at the bottom,
it was in the bottom quartile of trust.
And so think of how much brand value Tesla lost in one year because of a loss of trust.
(09:39):
And what was interesting is there was a similar effect um in terms of consumer perception of character,
culture,
ethics and citizenship for that brand,
those dimensions,
all of which were basically in the bo bottom quartile of the companies they asked about.
So it really does have a,
(09:59):
a very material bearing on your company and your perception.
And I would argue that each of us is a brand,
our businesses are a brand,
a professional brand.
When we walk into work,
the brand that we take out into the community when we interact with our,
with our,
our friends,
family,
um and neighbors,
(10:21):
right?
Um Trust matters,
it does,
it's huge and you're right,
I'm thinking about too,
you know,
even when you're working as a uh let's say you were running your company and you are working from that angle and you're partnering with somebody or you're,
um,
you,
you,
you start a relationship with a nonprofit and any part of that relationship,
(10:45):
that partnership,
that nonprofit relationship goes south because of something that you did not do correctly or you,
you,
something that seemed shady,
the trust is immediately affected,
you know what's really interesting?
And this was the first,
(11:06):
this was the first nugget from David.
I'm gonna be a little bit of a,
I'm gonna be a bit of an ad for him today,
um,
on this podcast just because I,
I respect his,
his work so much.
But this thing that you're touching on right now was the thing that hooked me on getting interested in this because he makes the point that we all think we've built up a certain amount of trust.
(11:30):
I'm,
I'm a good person when I go out,
I,
I deal with,
with others with integrity and I'm honest and I've got character and all that stuff.
And so I have built trust.
What we fail to understand is trust is a depleting resource.
It is,
it is very much a what have you done for me lately?
(11:52):
Kind of a,
a thing which is we could have done a lot to build up a lot of trust.
But oftentimes and I see this with clients that I work with as well.
Um One day,
no one's done anything awful like there hasn't been a smoking gun or anything hideous happening internally.
But then there's this absence of trust and in this kind of suspicion and the culture has kind of gone a little bit sideways and it's kind of through passive neglect because this depleting resource has been going down and hasn't been nurtured and cultivated.
(12:28):
And suddenly there's a problem and it's so slow and insidious that you kind of wake up one day and it's like,
oh gosh,
we have work to do good news is you can always rebuild trust.
There.
You,
there are ways very intentional ways that anyone or any business can build trust um and take action.
(12:54):
So this isn't something that we have to be victims about.
We can be intentional about how we want to show up and how we wanna start creating strategies for ourselves to build trust.
I'm glad you set that up because I think there was this moment of when you're talking about neglect and it being uh uh uh uh a sort of a leaky faucet resource sometimes with the trust.
(13:19):
I think there was this moment of fear where it's like,
wait a minute,
I think I hear you saying,
even if we go quiet as a supportive company for something or in a relationship with whoever,
even if we go quiet in that relationship,
that could mean the trust factor is,
is,
you know,
messed up all of a sudden.
(13:40):
Yeah.
It's so funny because so much of that trust is related to communication.
Uh The first pillar of trust is clarity.
Are you clear,
people trust that which is clear and unambiguous and not overly complicated?
OK.
So when you think about putting a message out,
(14:03):
this is particularly true of organizations that are quote unquote trying to build culture,
um It's almost like we will now be X,
we've talked about this in the past,
like here is our new culture,
right?
OK.
And then it's like they,
they put some posters up on the wall or whatever and then you're kind of like or what does this mean?
Um People do not get the message unless the message is repeated at least once every three weeks.
(14:32):
OK.
So you had your all hands meeting everybody got the memo,
you said it to their face once,
not enough.
That's where the leak comes in because people think,
well,
we did what we were supposed to do.
You did everything right in the first instance,
except follow up and reinforce that.
And that is the thing that allows the trust to start slowly depleting and diminishing over time among other things.
(15:00):
There's many things that can uh that are kind of counter forces to building trust in the company.
But um that's just a good example of we did all the right things and yet we're not where we thought we needed to be.
So,
in this scenario that you've,
you've uh got in my mind now I've got a leaky faucet with trust and I'm calling you.
(15:20):
Are you the plumber in this?
I think you might be,
you might be,
you might be the plumber.
And so setting this up,
like,
there's a way to rebuild trust.
And I think that was something I wanted to hang my hat on when you said that because I think no matter what the relationship is,
we're all a little afraid of.
(15:40):
like,
hm,
did we mess that up to the point where we can't rebuild this?
But you're saying we can,
you absolutely can.
I mean,
nothing is a lost cause.
But the thing is,
it takes commitment and it takes a little bit of,
um,
I would say forensics to really get at what the root cause is because the,
(16:03):
any organization or team or even individual because I can,
I can actually use this trust framework,
working with executives,
one on one about how they're showing up to their team.
So it doesn't really matter the context,
but the components of trust uh are gonna vary some things you're gonna be really great at.
(16:24):
And people want to say,
well,
that's what trust is and we're really great in that one thing.
Yeah.
Well,
it's actually a combination of about eight things that create trust.
And if any one of those things is really weak or actually maybe negative,
it is really easy to pull the whole thing down.
Right?
And so you have to ask yourself,
(16:46):
where have we maybe gotten off track and what's the low hanging fruit for us to focus on right now in terms of rebuilding that trust.
And I do come in to companies,
uh and I do work with executives directly on how to tactically figure out what is the thing that's gonna yield the best benefit in terms of building trust and creating the culture they want.
(17:08):
I love to Michael that,
you know,
you don't just work with executives in that,
in that arm.
You're working with everybody on that same topic.
You know,
I'm thinking about some of the nonprofits that you've worked very,
very closely with.
Um and really doing that forensic piece that you're talking about,
like you've really honed in on the messaging because it really takes all of that like the messaging to the public.
(17:34):
What's the public perception?
What's the internal structure looking like within your organization?
I mean,
it this can grow,
go across the board to all kinds of categories.
Oh yeah,
like I do a lot of strategic planning and you know,
when we talk about one of the the first pillars of trust that I mentioned is the the pillar of clarity and it's about understanding the message and making sure people under,
(18:02):
you know,
people see that it is clear and unambiguous and not overly complicated,
right?
So that literally can show up in terms of how you set up your strategic planning,
right?
It's,
it's,
it's like uh what are your goals?
Is everybody on the same page with that?
Like that is one way to build trust is to have a plan that people actually can see,
(18:27):
touch,
feel and understand.
Um The other thing too is how you're communicating around it,
right?
So what do you want people to take away?
Uh Are you explaining the outcomes that you want?
So if I'm a manager and you're an employee,
do they understand or do they share your vision of what success looks like?
(18:50):
Is there a deadline?
Are you clear about when you want this?
And did you create space for people to bring their topics in and explore them so that their needs are met in the process?
So are they able to clarify for themselves?
What's not clear or what's important to them or how they wanna show up or what your expectation is?
(19:15):
That's really what communication is about.
I,
I want us to talk more about the other pillars,
but I'm,
what I'm hearing you say too is trust.
Uh a big piece inside the trust word is communication.
So much of that,
what,
what you just said was about communication.
(19:37):
Absolutely.
It's,
it's the first thing when I come in and I would and I do work with like a workshop or,
or you know,
if I have an engagement around culture nine times out of 10,
I'm gonna start with the pillar of clarity is everyone clear on where you're supposed to be going because think about it,
(19:57):
you can start with other things.
But if nobody really,
if,
if people aren't rowing in the same direction,
what's gonna happen?
Your,
your robot is just gonna be spinning in circles,
right?
And you're not really gonna be going anywhere and no one's gonna be feeling good.
So let's make sure that everybody's on the same page in terms of the direction we need to go or that the messages that are being sent or being received in the way that you expect them to be.
(20:23):
That's a big deal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't know about you Michael,
but I've been,
I've worked at places with companies where I was in the spinning robot where I,
I was so confused about what we're doing,
where we're going and it's kind of exhausting when you're committed when you're committed trying to be in it.
It's kind of exhausting it.
It is.
(20:43):
I,
you know,
I used to work for a pretty big multinational organization.
Um and they would come up with things like OK,
we're now going to do X here's our big initiative,
we're gonna do X and,
and they did it.
This initiative was for all the right reasons.
It was,
you know,
we wanna be good stewards in our community.
(21:06):
Uh We want to create a brand around inclusiveness and sustainability and the future and cooper operation and all of the things that are values that I personally hold important.
But on your point around clarity,
(21:27):
what happened,
there was this big gap in terms of like,
OK,
well,
now that this is happening and this is the new thing,
there wasn't communication as to what does that look like in a timely manner?
Second thing when the communication did come out,
it was like so complicated and it was like,
(21:48):
you know,
here are flow charts of our process.
So if then like,
you know,
you're going through some sort of algorithmic like exploration of how to get to the answer.
And people are like,
gosh,
this feels crappy.
This sucks.
This is really complicated and I don't want to engage in it.
And so then what happens?
(22:09):
You kind of lost your audience.
Uh They're not going to be an evangelist of your message.
They're not gonna have a lived experience that actually supports this brand vision that you wanna bring out into the marketplace and it all just feels really inauthentic to everybody involved.
So clarity,
(22:29):
simplicity is important.
Simple,
clear,
not overly engineered.
Yeah,
I don't wanna feel,
I don't want to feel like I'm doing like a,
a mad lib with chemistry and algebra involved and to try to get from point A to point B when we all really want to be doing it.
We do,
we wanna,
we wanna be involved.
Ee Exactly.
(22:49):
Exactly.
Can we get a peek into?
So clarity pillar number one can we get a peek into the other pillars.
Yeah.
So another one that when it was mentioned,
I was like,
oh,
I love this compassion.
Now I would,
I would throw out there that compassion is not an emotion that many people feel in the workplace these days.
(23:17):
And so we wonder why we're having this quote crisis and trust,
but people but faith in those who care beyond themselves,
right?
And this is so central to my own vision of business.
You know,
I always say that I wanna put people back at the center of business and that,
(23:37):
you know,
businesses exist to serve people and not the other way around because I feel like so many people are being shuttered into this,
this box of,
well,
we have to serve these overlords of commerce,
right?
And there's no,
there's no sense of reciprocity,
(23:58):
there's no sense of um even individual value like that people have gotten commoditized and that is the antithesis of what compassion is about because compassion is about being seen and,
and being valued,
right?
(24:20):
For,
for,
for what you bring.
Um And so when I thought about it,
it just made so much sense to me because you know,
this management by scorecard mentality that's taken place.
Listen,
I'm a business coach.
I love metrics.
I know that you need objective benchmarks and stuff.
(24:42):
Uh It's to get the results,
you know what,
what you measure gets managed.
And I truly do believe that.
But I would also say,
can we measure things and can we manage things with a sense of compassion for the people that actually exist to do the work?
So,
(25:02):
yeah,
and really,
this is also with the crux of socially responsible business,
you cannot have a socially responsible or ethical business.
That doesn't that precludes this idea that you can create a compassionate workplace because it's about creating like coalitions within your company in the community for the better for the better of everybody,
(25:29):
right?
So this one was this one really kind of stuck with me?
Sometimes people say,
well,
how do I bring compassion into the workplace?
Natural question?
Like it's some,
I mean,
for some generations,
they're just not used to this idea or it feels very like hippyish or,
(25:52):
you know,
whatever,
there's really easy ways to demonstrate compassion.
Are you listening to people?
How often do managers just talk to their people?
Listen,
what did they have to say?
Communication and clarity actually goes two ways.
Do you appreciate the people?
(26:12):
Do you call out the good thing when you see it in the moment and celebrate people,
the number of people that have,
I've seen suffer under managers or leaders that feel threatened by successful people on their teams and don't give them recognition or appreciation for the work that they do.
(26:35):
You know,
it's,
it's,
it's,
it's shocking be present.
Don't be distracted.
Your people are coming to you for a reason pay attention,
take them seriously,
see the humanity in that person when they come and engage with you.
And then this is a more meta I would say,
but again,
(26:55):
very aligned with how I view business and strategies that I think personally are successful is um you know,
serve selflessly,
serve beyond yourself.
So how can you as an organization do something that moves the needle?
And this is a topic that we talk about all the time on this podcast,
right?
This is the reason why I think this strategy is so important and works because it creates one of the conditions for,
(27:24):
for trust and a culture to develop that are gonna retain your people,
connect authentically with your customers and create impact and therefore connection with your community.
That's it.
That reminds me of,
of uh I was,
I was working for a company and I had one of just the most fantastic uh leaders that I felt like I had ever had um in any of my jobs.
(27:53):
And I was like this,
this woman is everything she was.
She's exact,
she was the epitome of a great leader with compassion,
the compassion.
You're talking about where she called out moments of just fantastic recognition and,
and just she was so present,
never in a threatening moment uh at all with anybody else.
(28:15):
It was just,
it was so good and it gave me that example.
Um to then say that's what I want.
From now on like that's that I want those people to be in my life in my company.
I wanna,
I wanna support those people.
I wanna support those companies.
I mean,
people were making sales left and right in that company and I made a small sale and I got really excited about it and I ran to her office when she was about ready to leave for another meeting.
(28:44):
And I said,
oh my God,
I just made this $2000 sale and she got emotion that happy with me.
Like she was like,
oh,
that's amazing.
I just got chills.
Yes.
High five.
Let's do this.
I mean,
there are people making million dollar sales down the hall and I just made this $2000 sale and she was my cheerleader and I feel like that's what you're talking about.
(29:08):
Like it's,
that's gotta go all the way around for all the emotions.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And,
and the thing is you said,
you know,
I know that you now wanna seek that out like that's a person that you wanna look for and find in your next role or whatever.
(29:28):
Oh,
and this is why being the strongest drum so much,
which is like this market that we're in and this competition for talent that we're in has changed because more and more people,
our understanding that it is in fact possible to have an experience like you had,
it is possible to work for organizations that will appreciate you and will celebrate you and will treat you like a human.
(29:55):
Now,
there are far too few of them right now for my liking.
My,
my,
my mission vision purpose in doing what I do is to multiply by some factor a million,
the number of businesses out there,
they can take that energy that you experienced and,
(30:17):
and let it pervade their work force and their teams and their people every day because think of how much better our lives would be if that were the case,
no doubt,
right?
But this now gives companies an opportunity to compete with compassion.
They can hire ad Daniels now because you're looking for that compassionate person.
(30:39):
You're,
you're looking for that compassionate manager.
So um it isn't all about giving,
giving,
giving.
I think there's so much of a narrative around,
oh,
you know,
shit millennials want this and Gen X wants that and Gen Z wants this and they're entitled and uh all of this like things are different,
right?
Hm.
Get off my lawn.
(31:01):
Um But,
but it's really about competing right now for things on the basis of things that matter.
And I would argue compassion matters more than ever.
And it's huge.
Um And I,
I I'm so glad you put that as a pillar because I I'm not,
I mean,
we know that all of that makes so much sense but you pulling that out as a pillar is,
(31:25):
is really a billboard for,
you know,
these are the things,
these are the things we need to look at internally to,
you know,
make the calls to move the needle to maybe do something different,
have a different choice,
make a different choice,
you know,
and we're talking about building business,
keeping employees having a happier workplace,
(31:50):
you know?
Oh,
yeah,
this is fundamental stuff.
Yeah,
I,
I would like to take,
I wish I could take a full credit for some of these pillars.
But,
you know,
my own integrity and my own character,
character is a pillar of trust by the way.
So I'm building trust by disclosing.
This is,
you know,
this is all based on,
on really well researched information and uh you know,
(32:12):
it's empirical and it's been proven time and time again,
you know,
trusted Leadership Institute is the the forefront of this and David's done a lot of this work.
So um I am passing the good message,
so to speak that you can actually peel the onion and look under the hood of what is involved in trust and you can focus on things very tactically to improve it.
(32:37):
I love that.
Um So we've got clarity.
We've got compassion.
What's next character?
Hm.
So character,
people notice those who do what is right over what is easy.
Uh This takes me back to things that we've already talked about in other episodes.
Uh you know,
um if you're leading with your values and trading in and out because you get pushback from people that disagree,
(33:04):
that undermines the pillar of character.
And,
you know,
we've seen this with LGBT Q plus Organizations with Pride Month.
You know,
we've seen uh we've seen it in so many different contexts where somebody tries to reach a demographic or put a social message out there and then there's some eruption from some corner of the multiverse and suddenly it goes away.
(33:30):
Um That's not character,
that's,
that is a counter force to the pillar of character.
Uh and everybody that is affected directly or indirectly by those actions whose value is is reduced or denigrated as a result of,
of people doing what is easy versus doing what is hard and therefore,
(33:55):
right?
You lose trust.
There are many,
many organizations that I will not support because of that.
I don't think I'm unusual in that regard and it doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you're on.
You know,
you can have diametrically imposed beliefs from my own and that will still be true for you.
(34:17):
That's right.
Yeah.
And you know,
I was just thinking a rainbow graphic,
replace the word rainbow with whatever graphic,
a graphic of some sort of support does not make you a supporter does not make you true in character to what you're actually putting on your social media for that day or that week or that month.
(34:43):
Yeah,
100%.
How are you living your values?
It goes back to the conversation we had.
You have to live your values every single day.
They're not,
they're not tokens to be traded with your market or your employees because as soon as you trade them,
you've lost them.
And this is actually the reason why you've lost them because you've really done a number on your trust and it can take years to build that back.
(35:07):
I'm thinking too Michael about a,
you know,
a business owner,
uh,
you know,
uh CEO,
a leader of,
of name,
name,
the organization,
um,
wanting to do a check in on the values,
you know,
is that something,
is that something that,
you know,
it sounds really daunting maybe,
you know,
but maybe it's,
it's one of those things where it's like,
(35:28):
hey,
if,
if living my values here as,
as a company,
if that,
if that's gonna be the basis of trust and it's gonna be the basis of character and so many things public seeing this,
maybe I need to take a look under the hood at the values 100%.
Uh,
I,
I run across people all the time that are kind of maybe skeptical,
(35:50):
um,
about doing a really deep values exercise because they,
they view it as marketing or performative or virtue signaling or,
or whatever you wanna call it,
as I've said many times,
I don't view them that way.
I view that your values fundamentally as how,
what you're basing your decisions on And so when I go through a values exercise with an organization,
(36:12):
I did this recently with,
with a nonprofit,
you have to ask yourself what are the scenarios under which this value may be violated?
Would you sacrifice this value if dot dot dot Your heart's content came true,
right?
Whatever the situation is and if your answer is,
(36:33):
well,
maybe or hell yes,
maybe that's not the value you want to build your culture on.
Right.
That's,
it probably doesn't need to be on the list.
It can be important to you and you can,
you can still use that to guide your decision making.
But is it truly a value?
I would question that?
Right.
There's a lot of questioning that I feel like should go on in a,
(36:58):
in a lot of,
in a lot of businesses and a lot,
you know,
you think about some of these big,
big brands and they have to question that stuff pretty often if they're staying at the top of the trust list.
You know,
if,
if,
I mean,
we're talking about the numbers and the rankings not going from 12 down to 60 something,
(37:18):
you know,
if they,
if they have to stay,
they're looking under the hood pretty often at these things.
So,
you know,
it's interesting.
Who do you think the number one company on brand reputation was in 2023?
Mm Coca Cola?
Oh,
no,
I think Coke might have been pretty high up actually,
(37:38):
but the number one was Patagonia.
Patagonia.
They built their entire persona around being socially and environmentally responsible.
And when you want to talk about the,
the pillar of,
of character,
the founder who is a multi,
(38:00):
multi billionaire,
give it all away to a charitable trust.
There are very few things that signal character and build trust as much as something like that.
Right.
Right.
That's a perfect example of what we're talking about.
So if you pick the right values and you stick to them and you are steadfast,
(38:24):
you can see what the results are,
a very,
very successful company,
a beloved company,
a beloved brand.
And yet they're doing the thing that they say they're doing regardless.
Trust.
That's a big deal.
Right?
That's,
I mean,
that's what it says,
trustworthy.
We're trustworthy.
(38:44):
That's what that says.
Yeah.
Yeah,
we walk or talk.
Absolutely.
Um That was pillar number three.
How many pillars do we have?
We have a lot I could spend,
I could spend,
I could spend days on this and in fact,
I do.
Um but let me just touch on,
I'll,
I'll rattle them off for people that are just dying in suspense.
And then I'm gonna pick maybe one more uh to,
(39:08):
to talk about because it's not talked about enough,
I think.
Um So the other pillars are competence,
you know,
people are,
are trust,
organizations,
product services that stay fresh,
relevant and capable,
right?
Um You may be super trustworthy as producer,
(39:34):
but no,
no offense to you.
I'm not going to come to you for brain surgery because that's not your confidence,
right?
Like just basic,
right?
Thank you for that.
I appreciate it.
Exactly.
Like I don't think you want to be putting together.
Thank you.
Commitment.
People that uh believe in those who stand through adversity.
So when things get tough,
we were talking about this just now in,
in,
in connection with character um contribution.
(40:00):
Uh Are you getting results,
you know,
doing not saying builds trust that's basically,
and,
and those are intuitive.
I think people can connect with that consistency is another one little things done consistent,
consistently build trust.
(40:21):
OK.
Um So that's the one I personally have to work on because I,
you know,
I have a shiny object syndrome sometimes.
And so I,
I gotta like,
you know,
manage myself consistency like it's important.
Um But the one I,
the,
the last one that I really wanna,
I,
that I wanna maybe shine a light on because I think it's interesting is connection,
(40:46):
people trust those who are willing to connect and collaborate and think about the distrust that grows just because you don't know,
really know the people that you're in and around,
(41:09):
right?
Um I felt it.
So it was so weird in,
in,
in one of my old jobs um new people would show up and no,
and like if somebody introduced them or walked them around and introduced them.
Maybe it happened,
you know,
it,
it did happen on occasion,
but like maybe they were in a different team and they were kind of sitting next to you.
(41:31):
You could go months without ever talking to that person that does not build trust by the way,
because there's no connection,
there's like this weird barrier or energy around people,
right?
So one of the ways that organizations can build trust is really like,
again,
people talk about diversity,
equity inclusion.
It's about creating safe spaces where people can be seen and can feel connected.
(41:55):
That's fundamentally what it's about.
There is actually more that connects us,
then separates us.
I have worked and been privileged to travel all over the world in various capacities.
I've studied abroad,
I've lived abroad,
I've worked abroad um in pretty different places and regardless of background,
(42:20):
culture,
language,
all of it,
there is a humanity that unites us in connection is fundamentally about tapping into that shared humanity.
And I would love more companies to really be serious about that in an authentic way.
I love that.
I,
you know,
reminded me too.
Um We had a previous guest on several episodes ago,
(42:43):
Sandy Prost.
It reminded me if you and if you haven't listened to that episode,
go back and listen to it.
It's really,
really good.
It reminded me of how she was talking about how she connects,
you know,
with people at networking events and things of that nature.
She's like,
I never lead with the business.
You know,
I,
I always lead with that moment of connection.
Like she said,
I,
I'd rather know if you have dogs or cats at home or,
(43:04):
you know,
something like that and it does spark that immediate immediate connection,
something like that where it's like there's not a barrier there that you're talking about,
you know,
that you remove the barrier immediately.
Yeah.
You know,
it's funny.
Um I don't think I've told this story before.
If I have listeners,
you're gonna give me a pass.
(43:25):
We all live like Grace,
right?
But so I had this,
this neighbor that had not at work who had the office next to me.
He was my office neighbor and he wore his kind of professional persona was the curmudgeon older guy,
super cranky and he loved it.
(43:46):
He loved being the cranky old guy.
He was literally the get off my lawn guy.
Ok.
Um Really,
really conservative.
I am not probably figured that out.
Um had several daughters of,
of marriageable age.
Uh I'm gay and when I got married,
(44:08):
I was really nervous about his reaction because I had this whole image in my head about what he was gonna say or what he was gonna think about me or what that would create for me in terms of the dynamic at the office.
And so I kept it really on the down low as I was planning my wedding.
(44:31):
But at some point it came up that I was getting married and he was like,
oh,
you know,
I've,
I've married off three of my five daughters.
What part of the process are you at?
And we bonded over wedding planning in very different contexts.
And he became such a dear friend.
(44:52):
We had our differences,
but we were connected.
We found that thing that we could both talk about,
that was the starting point.
It was step one to creating a really genuine supportive connection and relationship that really served me well.
(45:14):
He,
you know,
he was a mentor in a lot of ways to me as I was coming up,
right?
Um And I just think about that in connection to connection,
right?
Um Is if we can find that thing to connect us rather than to divide us,
how much further we can come.
And so that's just my own little little story around that.
I love that it so basically it can happen.
(45:37):
Don't,
don't count it out because it can,
it can happen,
not only can it happen,
but I think there is an imperative for us to find ways to nurture that as hard as it may be.
II I think this is a great time of year.
A lot of people might go looking,
(45:57):
wanting to look,
maybe not wanting,
needing to look and wanting to look under the hood.
Um You know,
as the New Year approaches and what a great time to really have some,
some,
some really great guideposts along the way,
these guideposts of looking at clarity,
looking at compassion,
(46:18):
looking at connection and,
and all the other ones you mentioned,
what a great time to really dig into that and say,
where,
where could we tweak it here a little bit?
Yeah,
it's all about this time of the year and New Year's is about being intentional.
What do you want to see next year?
So people don't think about this type of stuff.
They don't think about how can I create more connection in my company.
(46:41):
But if you start looking at it and you do the research and you start thinking it through that very well,
could be the most important strategic decision you make all year and if you want to look a little deeper,
I know a guy.
Yeah.
You know,
I'm around,
if,
if,
if you think you might wanna do a little bit of investigation around what trust looks like in your organization or maybe you're a little bit worried about how the culture is feeling right now,
(47:08):
you know,
happy to have a call with you.
And uh we,
we can talk about the specifics.
I've got uh I've got a few tricks up my sleeve in this regard.
I love it.
Well,
Michael,
this has been good.
So until next time we'll,
we'll do it again soon.
All right,
thanks to,
you can find Michael Messer at discerning strategies.com set up a free 20 minute consultation.
(47:33):
Clarify your goals,
scale your business.
Amplify your impact.
Discerning strategies.com.
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