December 27, 2023 • 54 mins
Caroline Sumners is the CEO at Empower Academic Coaching - and she's about to open the treasure chest for business owners who want to grow with intention. Caroline talks about how she is creating impact and living her values with her team at Empower. She says, "one of the keys to succeeding at business is failing fast".
Empower Academic Coaching specializes in supporting students with ADHD, anxiety, or other learning challenges reconnect to the joy of learning by focusing on the what, how, and why of learning.
Learn more about the voices in this episode:
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
What does growth look like in your business in your life as a business owner,
executive or individual,
you can live and lead with intention to create the change you want to see in your community and the world.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies Podcast,
a place where we can see clearly and act wisely.
(00:32):
Hi,
everybody.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies podcast and I am your host,
Michael Messer.
And today I am joined by a friend and a fabulous entrepreneur,
Caroline Sumner,
who is the CEO and founder of empower academic coaching.
Hey,
Caroline,
how's it going?
Hey,
I'm so happy to be here.
(00:52):
Awesome.
You know,
when we were thinking about,
you know,
putting this podcast together,
one of the things I talk about all the time is like impact and like living your values and you are such an inspiring and interesting person in that regard.
And so I really wanna talk about how you are living your values as a business owner with power.
(01:16):
But before we get there,
why don't we just start?
Tell us what does empower kind coaching actually,
do we help students who are overwhelmed and stressed out by school gain confidence and be successful by teaching them the academic skills they need to succeed as well as the life skills they need to succeed and enjoy learning.
Again,
(01:37):
I got inspired to do that because I was a teacher,
I taught middle and high school for seven years and teaching is a really tough job.
There's as,
you know,
there's so many things that go into your day that I felt I had to focus so much on the what of learning and it didn't have enough time to address the how.
(01:58):
So I got inspired to start in power.
Specifically the last year I was teaching when I had this amazing group of seventh graders and I saw them for two classes a day.
So I got to know them really well.
I taught them science and English and I found that they were so smart,
curious,
(02:19):
insightful,
but you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell that from some of the outward metrics,
like their report card or some of the feedback they were getting from other teachers.
And so I got curious about that disparity and that's when I learned more about executive functioning skills.
So these are the skills that we use as business executives.
Um It's things like planning,
(02:41):
organizing,
prioritizing,
having a strategy and those are things that you need,
just as you need them to be successful in business,
you need them to be a successful student and to learn all the things that you have to learn in middle high school and college.
And so I got interested in learning more about how those develop in people and some people can kind of pick them up on the fly.
(03:06):
That's probably how a lot of us learned,
but people can really benefit from some explicit instruction around those skills.
And I got just obsessed with continuing once I saw the results that students were getting and seeing that newfound confidence.
And that's,
that's how I started in 2018.
(03:26):
And we've been going strong ever since.
And now I have a great group of three other full time former teachers who work with me to live out this mission.
That's awesome.
You know,
one of the first questions I remember asking you is you're calling yourself an academic coach.
Like,
how is that different from a tutor?
And I think you just answered it,
which is like you're focusing as much on the how and the skills like the,
(03:49):
the kind of the executive function stuff.
It's not just about mastering whatever the subject is exactly.
And the way that I explain it to parents who are a little bit concerned that maybe their child,
they know they could benefit from it,
but they're not really sure if they'll buy in because maybe they have had a tutor in the past and that hasn't gone so well because you don't get me wrong.
(04:12):
There's great tutors,
but sometimes kids can associate it with a deficit that they have.
That maybe not everyone in their class needs a tutor and why do they need one?
They must not be good at something.
Whereas a coach,
everyone benefits from having a coach,
even the top Olympic athletes have a coach to help them meet their own personal goals.
And so that's how I frame it for kids and then it becomes more empowering for them rather than,
(04:38):
uh,
a failing of theirs.
100%.
I remember having a math tutor when I was young and I was not doing well in math.
You know,
I was that kid and that whole deficit mindset was definitely there.
I think back then it was quite some time ago.
Uh,
people didn't have tutors even as,
as frequently as they do now.
(05:00):
And I think it really stuck with me.
I,
like,
had in my head that I was just bad at math,
which was a complete lie until I got to graduate school.
And then I was like,
wait a sec,
I have to do calculus now in graduate school and I,
I can do it just fine.
Like it just so much of it is mindset and it's interesting just coach to coach when you talk about executive functioning skills.
(05:20):
Um,
that's a lot of what I do too.
I mean,
we don't,
it,
it is not unusual for people not to pick up the skills that you just kind of think everybody assumes you're gonna be able to be a great planner by the time you start your business or you get out into the workforce or,
you know,
how you wanna manage your time.
Like that is so much of what I work with myself,
(05:42):
with adults.
Right.
So I think it's great that you're,
you're starting early with the kids.
Right.
Yeah.
And I think that's such a great point that you raise that adults struggle with these skills too.
And I think to some extent you can,
you can get better at anything that you want to.
But on the other hand,
I think we are all imbued with certain gifts and talents and things that we gravitate towards.
(06:09):
And there's something to be said for how as adults we learn to navigate.
What,
what is something that's a strength of ours and then what's something that maybe we could get someone's support on?
Maybe if I'm not good at scheduling,
I need to bring in someone who has that type of brain to help me organize my business.
And I think kids sometimes get the message that they need to be able to do it all just thinking about the way that school is set up.
(06:36):
They're expected to get all A's in every single class and they're expected to also have all the skills that they need to be able to do that.
And there's so much focus on independence.
But I think it's equally as valuable to know when to be interdependent when to get support and how to ask for that.
So that's something that's really core to what we do as well,
(06:57):
helping students know,
when do I need help and how do I get it?
I think what you're saying is,
is so true.
I mean,
with executives,
like I work with executives,
right?
And there's this feeling and there's so much pressure and stress,
I think from people that have experienced a certain degree of success in their careers and their professional lives,
(07:20):
but they feel like they have to do it all.
And that's just not true.
Like even when,
when I work with business owners and we think about like,
how do you create a strategy for your business?
It's about leveraging what you're good at and then figuring out how to overcome the thing that maybe you need a little bit more support on or you might consider a weakness of yours or an area of development or however you want to say it right?
(07:43):
We all have them.
I think it's so damaging sometimes to feel like in so many aspects of our lives that we have to be super people that we have to somehow have complete and utter mastery of all of these crazy things in a world that's becoming more complicated and faster paced and all,
all,
all of that.
So,
yeah,
(08:03):
I uh I see what you're saying just in terms of my own work as well.
Yeah,
there's so much unlearning that needs to be done.
I know a lot of the work that you do with people is helping you envision the business that you want to create and not just regurgitating what we've all internalized business should be.
(08:23):
And I,
I think when I hear you talk about the pressure that executives put on themselves and,
you know,
it reminds me of the pressure I've put on myself a lot of times,
I think it's that cultural value that many of us have,
have absorbed from the United States of just rugged individualism that you should be able to do it all on your own.
(08:47):
And what I try to do is think more about my business as an ecosystem.
So something where I need to have balance and there's multiple components that are all working together to lead to success.
And then it takes,
it not only takes the pressure off me,
but it leads to better results because a healthy ecosystem is,
(09:10):
is going to thrive and it's going to do,
you know,
justice to every everyone else who's part of that.
I love that.
Like this,
this idea of the ecosystem,
I do talk about that and I think about it business in those terms as well because there is this sense of interdependency right now.
I don't believe that much at,
at least for smaller businesses in competition.
(09:32):
II I believe in this ecosystem of like doing what's good for you and what you're good at and really leaning into that and then creating the structure to fill in the gaps or to work cooperatively and spread the wealth so that you can actually,
you know,
create coalitions to create change,
right?
Like that's really what an ecosystem is.
(09:53):
If you think about animals,
right?
They get really specialized in one thing and they don't try to go out and do the other thing because what's gonna end up happening,
they're gonna get eaten,
right?
But if you take that animal out of your ecosystem,
suddenly the whole thing falls apart and the ecosystem itself is,
(10:13):
is weaker as a result.
And so I kind of love that analogy.
Speaking of ecosystems and doing the thing you're good at um I,
you actually focus,
I know in your business on something that's really specific,
doing the thing that you're really good at.
Uh which is you work a lot with uh neurodivergent kids.
Yeah,
(10:34):
we love working with neurodivergent kids.
So those are kids who have some kind of brain difference,
like a DH D autism or learning disabilities,
there's lots of different just brain wirings that are not necessarily always well supported in the current school environment.
(11:00):
If you,
you know,
think back to your own school days.
Um I know for myself it's,
I had a lot of great experiences at school.
Don't get me wrong,
but in general,
it's an environment that is often designed for compliance it's designed for one way of thinking and that is harmful to a lot of kids who just think differently than the way that that is set up.
(11:24):
So one thing that really inspires me in,
in my business is it's estimated that by age 12,
a kid with a DH D will get about to more negative messages than a kid without.
And think about that,
the toll that,
that tapes and I see it with,
with the older students I work with and even adults,
(11:45):
my team is comprised of a lot of neurodivergent individuals as well.
And I am too and I have seen personally the impact that it has to feel out of the norm every single day.
And I think about the way that instructions are given at school,
maybe um a teacher is giving you like three different things to do at the beginning of class,
(12:11):
a student with a DH D one of the hallmark characteristics is you have an amazing long term memory,
but your working memory,
your ability to hold a few things in your brain and then go implement them is really weak comparatively.
And so that student may miss those three instructions and then they start to maybe look around the room,
(12:37):
see what other people are doing,
maybe whisper to a friend and try to figure it out,
maybe be kind of like shuffling papers,
like looking for what they missed or maybe just kind of disengage and be like,
let me hide and figure out how I can just let this pass and all of those things to an outsider who's not understanding what's going on is going to think the student is unfocused.
(12:58):
And,
you know,
if they're talking,
like,
maybe they're disrupting the class now and this is how kids start to get labeled as,
you know,
they're not serious students,
they're not motivated,
they're not trying hard and then kids start to internalize those messages.
And so I have seen the power,
it can have to stop that kind of messaging.
(13:19):
And I work really hard to create a supportive environment where kids can get,
you know,
get better at those things that are hard for them,
figure out strategies that will work for them and then build the confidence in themselves to know that there's nothing wrong with the way their brain is wired.
It's just different and difference is beautiful because it,
(13:41):
we,
you know,
as,
as I've heard you speak about on this podcast before and in our conversations,
our,
our strength comes from diversity from different perspectives and viewpoints and neurodivergent kids are uniquely equipped to provide that and we've got to give them the chance to do that.
I love that.
Like it's so interesting to me,
(14:01):
even in my own work,
when I run across clients,
the number of clients that are getting um later in life diagnoses for their own neuro divergence.
And it's really unlocking something for them.
And,
you know,
I've had some really kind of raw conversations,
like there's so much emotion behind that,
that people are,
(14:22):
like,
finally I'm starting to understand why certain things were going the way they were going for me.
Or suddenly I can actually access a little bit of compassion for myself because those voices and those,
like,
they were beating themselves up so hard in the ways they weren't able to show up um in contexts where expectations were different for them,
(14:46):
right?
Um And then,
you know,
I'm not uh you know,
certified to,
to necessarily work with a DH D individuals or people with those diagnoses.
Although I,
they number,
some of my clients have actually sent a few to you for some conversations in that regard.
Um um but it's really impactful,
(15:08):
I've seen for people to recognize it and then to try to move past it with intention.
Right?
Absolutely.
It doesn't surprise me that you would talk to so many individuals going through this because entrepreneurship lends itself to the neurodivergent brain being creative,
(15:30):
having what,
you know,
what's called divergent thinking,
like being able to generate a lot of possible solutions to a problem,
quick thinking.
Um w uh hyper focus so working really hard to solve a problem until it's solved.
These are all things that neuro divergent people thrive at.
And additionally,
(15:50):
you know,
thinking about the work that you do with clients on designing the business that they want to have,
that reflects their values.
You don't get to do that in a,
in a typical job.
Most of the time in a 9 to 5 job,
you are,
the expectations are set for you,
the hours are set for you.
Whereas in our own businesses,
(16:11):
we do have some freedom to create a system that works best for us.
And so that's been really freeing for me.
And I've really dedicated myself to creating a workplace that is really responsive to the neurodivergent brain,
you know,
building in flexible scheduling and different ways of communication.
(16:34):
Um being kind of responsive in the way that uh we generate goals as a team,
including everyone's voices,
doing a lot of professional learning about neuro divergence.
And so I think business has been great for me in that way in,
in just getting me to think outside of the box for myself and for others.
(16:58):
It's,
it's so interesting that you say that because I hadn't actually connected dots.
But you're right.
II,
I work oftentimes with people who are like super creative and I always say that like one of my superpowers is helping people see more possibilities than they think exist.
But these are oftentimes people who are really,
really good at that.
(17:19):
But then the trickiest part is once you can see this like wide range of things available to you choosing the one you wanna go after.
Right.
That's right.
And that's hard.
That can be hard and that can be scary actually for any,
for any business owner.
Um,
you are doing that right now in this space you're being really intentional around trying to serve this particular community.
(17:42):
Um,
and it's,
it's a niche,
right?
It's a niche for your business.
Um,
that's gotta feel a little bit scary.
I feel like I have that conversation a lot with people.
Uh I encourage them to figure out what they're good at what really fills them up,
what's values align and then do that thing and do it really well.
And people just get in this habit of thinking,
(18:06):
oh,
but I can't leave so much on the table because there's so many people I could be serving.
Why would I limit myself to just serving this population?
Um,
you are kind of really leaning into the ne divergent community of,
of Children out there that need support.
How has that journey been for you?
Is it hard to get there mentally in your own business to say this is what we're gonna do?
(18:26):
Parts of it were hard and,
and,
and parts were easy.
So I'll just share,
share how it worked out for me.
I know exactly what you're talking about and I've,
I've had conversations with many business owners about the same topic and I think when you're early on in business or when you're going through kind of a shift in your business,
I think it's very normal and natural to you need to take a bunch of work that may not be exactly what you want to,
(18:55):
what you,
what you're gonna end up doing because you've got to figure it out.
And so I think there's,
there's value in kind of,
you know,
tasting from the buffet of different types of clients and different types of work first.
So that then you get really clear on who you specifically want to serve.
And so that's what I did.
(19:17):
I,
I really started to hone in on neurodivergent kids for a few different reasons.
One is I just found that so we started to get more and more people who are asking for that.
So if,
if there's a,
a business owner listening,
who's wondering uh who wants a tangible tip?
(19:38):
I would say listen to your current clients.
What are the themes that are showing up for you?
Um A second thing I noticed is we were just really good at it.
Those are the students that we got the best results for and not just results for the student uh which was huge but also for their family.
They felt so much more peaceful and had better family relationships because school wasn't so much of a stressor.
(20:04):
And then third,
what I,
what I found out is that when we designed our programming with neurodivergent kids in mind,
I actually wasn't leaving anything on the table because what worked well for them really worked well for all of our students.
It was,
it was starting from a place of how can we help the people who are struggling the most right now under the current system of education and then as a result,
(20:33):
everyone,
um,
benefits.
So it didn't feel ok,
too hard for me to narrow down to specializing with neurodivergent kids because we continue to get other people who were a good fit clients who maybe just didn't have a diagnosis or didn't identify in that way.
Um I think the part that was hard about it is it is a little scary to the,
(20:59):
to change your branding and really put yourself out there as this is what we specialize in.
But the cool thing about business is you can always change.
I feel like I've reinvented myself 100 times over the past five years and we continue to do so.
So there's no harm in trying.
I think what,
you know,
one of the keys to succeeding in business is failing fast.
(21:22):
So try it out,
you know,
and if it doesn't work,
you can always regroup.
I love that.
Like it,
it so many of us are wired to be like,
ok,
I'm gonna make this decision and then suddenly it's like we're carving on the stone tablets on,
you know,
that they're never going to change and this is going to be our identity forever when in fact,
(21:45):
building a business is like being in the chemistry lab,
not really know knowing exactly what's in the vial but deciding to add two things together and hope it doesn't blow up in your face.
And if it does,
you've got your safety goggles on,
you've got your fire extinguisher and you move on.
Right.
Exactly.
The science teacher in me loves,
loves that analogy.
Exactly.
(22:06):
It's like,
you know,
the trick is like,
uh,
you know,
play with it but don't,
don't put,
you know,
don't maybe put too much capital behind any one big bet until you test it out.
That would be the business coach and me saying like,
yes,
experiment.
Uh but,
but don't go all in on one thing with uh too heavy until,
you know,
if it's gonna work.
Exactly.
(22:28):
Yeah,
that's,
that's awesome.
So,
you know,
one of the things that you're bringing up that also just energetically I think is so important is you hit on the fact that like these were the people that just felt good to serve.
Like it felt really like there was a vibe there for you.
You said we were good at serving these people.
And so you just continue to do more of it.
(22:51):
I think that's one of the things with mindset that I think is so important that I just wanted to call out,
which is,
I think we're all naturally resourceful,
creative and,
and whole in terms of what we need for ourselves and our business and listening to that voice that says this feels good and I need to do more of that.
I think for some reason we've been training ourselves to,
(23:13):
like,
not be in touch with that voice.
Um,
and there's a lot of wisdom there.
Right.
You know,
where we get a lot of training about not listening to that voice is cool.
Yeah,
I think,
I think,
and,
and,
you know,
I,
I love,
(23:34):
I have so much appreciation and admiration for teachers,
obviously I was one.
And so this is not in any way,
an indictment of them.
It's,
it's just about the school system has a lot of things in place that aren't working for teachers either.
So,
uh I think that we just,
the way the school is set up,
we're taught to not listen to our voice,
(23:55):
even something as simple as when you're hungry,
you can't necessarily eat.
Maybe there's a rule against eating in class.
And so I think over time,
we,
we are kind of taught to like disconnect from some of those very basic biological instincts that we have and that also impacts just our listening to our inner,
(24:16):
inner wisdom as well.
And I think we're also taught that to succeed,
means to work hard and for it to somehow be,
be a slog through,
through something really challenging and difficult.
You know,
if you think about what kids are praised for,
it's like working hard and like studying a lot and you know,
(24:39):
doing whatever it takes to get certain,
certain grades.
And so I think that tricks a lot of us into thinking that if something is easy that it's somehow not worth it,
sometimes I will in a coaching session and I will just feel so light,
it will feel effortless to me.
(24:59):
And it has taken me a long time to realize that that is when I'm having the most impact because I was in my flow state,
I was drawing upon my resources,
gifts and strengths and it didn't feel difficult.
And I'm,
you know,
of course,
there are things that feel difficult in business and in life and those can be valuable too.
(25:20):
But we already listened to that very easily.
I think we need to get better at listening to.
Where are things easy?
Where do I have gifts and how can I use those 100%?
I,
I love the flow state,
right?
Like when I,
when I work with people on like just their personal effectiveness at work,
um Same thing focus on your flow state like that's where you're generating your greatest return on energy,
(25:46):
right?
Is when you're in that flow state because it's effortless to you,
your output and your outcomes and your creativity and everything about what you're doing is resonating and,
and,
and and causing a positive impact,
everything that's not in flow state.
You,
you basically have a choice,
right?
It's either delegate or eliminate or time box.
(26:08):
Like maybe you can't do,
maybe you can't delegate it and you have to do it.
But it's,
that's where you start kind of chipping away at the constraints and figuring out well,
where are the resources that we need to bring in?
Because really,
as an entrepreneur,
you need to be doing the thing that is generating the greatest return for your business.
And that's usually when you're in that flow state.
(26:29):
Absolutely.
Um I'm curious though.
So my spouse is a teacher as well and uh so much of what you're saying about the institution of education in this country is resonating with me.
Uh Teachers,
like honestly,
often just aren't empowered to do the thing that they need to do.
(26:50):
Like,
you know,
my husband's a math teacher and he's got kids in his class,
you know,
he teaches fifth grade and they're at a first or second grade level,
he doesn't get the option of meeting them where they're at.
Yeah.
And then when I think about the difficulties for teachers to engage with students that might have neuro divers and uh neurodiversity issues or neurodivergent thought processes,
(27:18):
that's a lot of skill that you're asking the teachers to bring in.
Like,
how can you actually,
or how can we support teachers to be more effective,
given how hard their job is these days?
That's a great question.
And I,
I think it comes from asking the teachers.
(27:41):
So for those people who are listening right now,
I just encourage you to,
to reach out to the teachers in your own lives and ask what kind of support they need.
And I think I,
I'm a big believer in small actions,
having,
having a big impact and it may not seem like so big a deal to ask a teacher in your life what they need and for them to say I really need,
(28:10):
you know,
$25 towards supplies in my classroom.
You may not think that makes a big difference,
but to teachers who are constantly buying their own school supplies that may just free up some mental space and some stress and they may be able to do some really cool project with their class that they wouldn't normally be able to do.
And I think if their answer is something that maybe you're not able to do as easily,
(28:34):
I think just listening to that and,
and thinking about how you can be part of,
of the solution.
One thing we're trying to do and empower to be part of that solution is to partner with schools and do some professional development and curriculum development that will help teachers incorporate executive function skills more easily.
(28:57):
And that is always our approach because I have sat in so many professional developments as a teacher where it was either from people who didn't understand what I was going through or who had,
you know,
just they had things to teach me,
but it was going to take so much more work.
So we'd really try to be careful and thoughtful in what we're developing,
(29:21):
that it will enable teachers to feel more empowered,
more equipped to better reach those students without a ton of,
of extra work.
Um And that has,
that's just been really exciting because at the same time,
it's also increasing our impact,
you know,
our foundational service is,
(29:42):
is 1 to 1 academic coaching and with a school,
we can suddenly impact thousands of kids and,
and hundreds of teachers,
I know that there are so many teachers who have neurodivergent kids in their class and don't have a cote or someone else who can support them.
So,
right now,
(30:02):
we're specifically working on some,
some things that can help those teachers know what,
what to do and,
and how to best support those students.
But,
yeah,
I think at the end of the day if we're all asking the teachers in our lives,
what,
what they need from us,
I think we could do a lot of collective good.
Yeah,
I'm actually struck by just these national trends where teachers have somehow become less trusted.
(30:28):
It's,
it's,
it's,
it's actually what's happening is the reverse of what you're suggesting.
It's,
it's actually taking more discretion away from teachers and it doesn't really seem to be replaced by anything at home.
Right.
That's the thing.
I don't get it because honestly a teacher can do anything when,
(30:49):
when I meet someone and I know that they're a teacher or a former teacher.
I'm automatically impressed because I know they can literally do anything.
Teaching is the hardest job.
You have to basically be a project manager.
Um,
a,
a curriculum developer,
you've got,
(31:11):
you know,
you,
you're taking care of other people's Children all day long.
Everyone can,
can remember,
uh,
a hurtful comment that a teacher made to them.
You've got to be extremely a skilled communicator who makes sure that you're not damaging kids.
You're building them up.
You've got to be like a mental health counselor a lot of times there and,
(31:34):
and I,
I,
you know,
I just rattled off those things,
but there's a,
a list 1000 miles long of things that teachers have to do.
So I think it,
we're doing a huge disservice to not listen to teachers because they certainly have,
have the answers about how to solve this problem.
And so if,
(31:54):
if on a national level people aren't listening,
then what we can do is on a,
on a small scale level.
Let's ask some teachers what they need.
I love that,
you know,
common theme on this podcast.
Small things have big results.
Um kind of along those lines like you've been in business now for what five years you said you started in 2018 and you're now thinking about amplifying your impact and you're doing that intentionally by now partnering,
(32:20):
not just in a one on one context,
but taking it to schools and districts and that kind of thing.
What was that journey like when you did you,
did you have an intention when you started your business about the type of impact you wanted to see through your business?
Absolutely not.
I love it.
So,
yeah,
so let's like,
(32:40):
so how did that happen?
I'll be honest,
when I started my business,
I just knew I needed to get out of the school environment,
I think because of my undiagnosed at the time,
neuro divergence to to I loved the kids like,
right,
the kids are always amazing.
(33:02):
It was literally being in a school building that was very overwhelming for me to be around that much noise and like fluorescent lights and um it's just a very chaotic environment and I do much better with a peaceful environment.
So I knew I needed to get out of there and wanted to work with kids.
And I honestly had just taken on a few private clients while I was still teaching and I kind of calculated,
(33:28):
you know,
how can I,
how many kids would I need to work with to replace this teacher income?
And I thought,
you know,
this will work as a transition.
I'm not sure what's next for me,
but this,
this will be a good interim move.
And now here I am five years later,
I think when I first started thinking about having a bigger impact,
(33:52):
uh It was by accident at first because I got fully booked and I needed to start bringing in team members.
And once I started doing that,
something really cool happened.
I kind of had this idea that me as the business owner,
I'm always going to care about my business the most and I've been an employee before,
(34:13):
like I care very much about what I do.
But at the end of the day,
it's not my thing.
Like I wasn't running the school I was working at.
So in some ways I could detach a bit and I kind of expected my employees to be the same way without any judgment about that.
I just thought,
you know,
for them,
it's a job and I know they're going to be amazing at what they do,
but I'm not expecting anything past that.
(34:36):
And I'm,
I've been very thoughtful and intentional about which people I bring into my company.
I make sure to find people who really align with the values of the company.
And so when they come in,
they come in with their own dreams and visions that are so inspiring to me that it,
(35:00):
it forces me to dream bigger.
That actually the way that we started working with our first school that we did uh an executive function curriculum for is one of my employees pursued it.
I was very much thinking,
I don't know if we're ready for this.
You know,
we could do a bit more research,
we could do a bit more planning,
uh kind of getting into that.
(35:21):
A little bit imposter syndrome,
but of like,
really?
Are we ready for this?
And she feels like,
yes,
we absolutely are ready for this.
Look,
look at what we've accomplished so far.
Look,
everything we've done,
like,
let's put it together.
And so they help me see what I might talk myself out of envisioning and I,
I love that and I'm so grateful to them for that.
(35:43):
You know,
you think I'm thinking back on,
on,
on what I talk about all the time,
which is like when,
when businesses wanna have impact,
one of the things I say is impact starts at home and impact starts at home in my world largely means where like it needs to be bottomless up,
(36:07):
it needs to be organic and you need to talk to your employees.
That's exactly what you did.
Like basically,
like they brought you on a journey that's now helping you magnify your impact to create more business opportunities and grow because you effectively were willing to be present and open to what they brought to the table.
(36:28):
Is that fair or am I am I like putting too much of a cherry on top of that Sunday?
No,
II,
I fully agree with that cherry on that Sunday.
And I think so some people might,
might hear that and think well,
but I,
you know,
I'm the leader of the business.
Like I'm the one who should be setting the vision and you can still use your discernment and,
you know,
(36:48):
I don't go with every idea they,
they bring to me but I,
I am listening for the things that do resonate and,
you know,
why have a team if I'm not going to listen to them every good part of my business,
uh,
you know,
I,
I think it has come from,
from my team.
I,
I'm just being brought back to the ecosystem.
You're creating the ecosystem,
(37:08):
they're part of the ecosystem,
they're bringing different things to the table than you do.
Exactly.
And then it makes,
it makes me stronger as a result and it helps all of us and because they bring that to me,
you know,
I do everything I can to also provide for them and in the ways that I think employers should provide for the,
for their team.
(37:30):
So I definitely want to touch on that.
But there's a,
you used a word that's near and dear to my heart,
which is discernment.
You use discernment.
So my company is called discerning strategy.
So clearly,
the discernment word catches my attention.
I don't know if you did that on practice,
but you did look at you.
Um No,
but like it,
it is a question for me and I'm,
I'm always curious like,
(37:53):
where did,
where does this discernment for you come from?
Like you are creating this to people,
you're like open to bringing these incredible people and you're inspired by the people that you're hiring.
Um They're throwing ideas at you.
Some of them resonate others.
Don't you get to choose?
Like,
what are you basing this discernment on at the end of the day for yourself and your own business?
(38:16):
My values.
So um I,
I swear to the people out there listening to this,
I did not pay Caroline to say that,
but I love that.
She just did.
So,
of course,
we're gonna have to go there.
Love to talk about values,
right?
What are your values?
Like,
how do they help our company values are empowerment,
(38:41):
peace,
thoughtfulness and equity.
And this is a really tough journey.
But I will say one thing that I'm forever grateful that I did is very early on in my business.
I realized I was kind of uh repeating internalized negative business traits just because it's what we are exposed to as we grow up and,
(39:12):
and it's what we think business is all about.
And I found myself repeating things that I really didn't want to repeat.
I wanted to re envision and create a business that I could really be proud of.
And that was doing things differently.
And so I worked with a coach,
Trudy lebron and she helped me get really crystal clear on my values.
(39:36):
And through that,
through that work of figuring out what those values are.
And now I have a compass that I can use for every tough decision in my business.
So I use it for really everything.
We use it in our team meetings to determine like what topics that we're discussing and how we're discussing them.
(39:59):
We use it in our hiring process.
I'm very,
I list all my values in the job posting.
And I also describe what they,
what they mean to me and what,
you know,
how I,
how I am hopeful that applicants would relate to those values.
I put them in my agreements that clients sign uh right at the beginning so that people can read those and we can make sure that,
(40:25):
that we're in alignment,
no judgment if a client doesn't align with those values.
But I want to make sure that like,
I don't think you're gonna be happy if those don't match up.
So let's go ahead and talk about them upfront and that investment upfront has led to so much such richer client relationships because we're starting from a place of our common values.
(40:48):
I even use it when I'm thinking about things like my appointment reminders.
Like what,
what does it say in the email?
Making sure it's empowering like that they have all the links that they need right there.
That it's thoughtful.
I've included all the information,
the policies that they might need to refer to.
So it's,
it's just really helped me because I don't have to re invent the wheel when I'm going through a tough decision.
(41:10):
Like do I want to make this investment,
you know,
do I want to start this new,
new program?
I can just come back to those values and think about which option is going to get me the closest to satisfying all of them or is there one of them that really needs to be prioritized right now?
Yeah,
I love that level of intention and that's exactly what values are for.
(41:34):
You know,
what's really interesting to me is I run across people that oftentimes express some level of dissatisfaction with where their business is.
Um They don't feel like they're being intentional,
they don't feel like they're being focused um in terms of the opportunities they're pursuing or just something feels off.
(41:54):
And when I ask them,
well,
do you have values or how do you feel about the values that are showing up in your business?
I sometimes get crickets or there's a vibe of like,
oh,
that's just kind of performative and oftentimes that's kind of where we need to.
(42:15):
I feel like we need to start for exactly the reasons that you're mentioning,
right?
Like they're not really the poster on the wall.
It's for decision making.
That's what they're there for.
Yeah.
And what's so cool is,
would you bring in a team who has those same values?
Then you've got people who can remind you when you're out of alignment with them?
(42:38):
And I find that when I'm feeling that way,
when I'm feeling like a little dissatisfied with my business.
It's usually something is out of alignment with my values.
And so you have to think about them really intentionally first in order for you to be able to kind of diagnose that problem.
And it,
you know that like that's how values are,
(42:59):
you're never going to be perfectly following all of them because we have to live in a world with other values flying at us all the time.
It's like you always have to kind of come back home and,
and get realigned and having a team around you who can help remind you of that is so powerful because it just shortens the the process so much.
(43:22):
Absolutely.
And not only that,
but I think it attracts the right people,
right?
Like if you're gonna be making those decisions,
I mean,
you're bringing people in the door that already say,
yeah,
this is something that's important to me personally and I can get behind,
right?
And so you're creating by,
by virtue of these values that are shared and mutually understood the foundation for a culture that can then go out and kind of they can become your evangelists in the community,
(43:51):
in the bus in the market that you're trying to serve about what it is you're actually trying to do.
And that's exactly what has happened.
I haven't even had to ask them to do that,
but they're so excited about what we're doing that they,
they can't help but,
but talk about it and,
you know,
I'm thinking about what you said earlier,
how sometimes people think like identifying values can be,
(44:13):
yeah,
kind of performative or like,
you know,
there's other important things to be doing.
Like I need to like hit my revenue goals.
I need to,
you know,
figure out this,
figure out how I'm going to hire someone next.
Um There are all these other things in our business that add up.
But when you do this part first,
it truly makes everything else easier because now you have a foundation and,
(44:37):
and the problems become not just separate things like you don't just have like revenue that you're thinking about and your team that you're,
that you're thinking about and your client delivery that you're thinking about,
instead,
all of those things are spokes that are coming out from your main hub of,
of your values and you can start to see how they're interrelated.
(44:58):
Absolutely.
There's one thing that you do that is related to the values.
Um I believe it shut up in one of your values,
but it is a little bit unusual,
I think for a business of your size,
you've got,
you said three people on staff.
Did I get that right?
Three people on staff?
Ok.
So you're a cozy team.
Um,
you actually hired ad E I person.
(45:20):
Yes.
So one of our coaches.
So because we're a small company,
everyone also has an additional role uh for the company.
And so one of the coaches is our DE I coordinator,
um Tiffany Insa and she is,
she's wonderful at it.
And that's,
that's really cool because what's inspiring to me about that is it's actually taking the value around inclusion and actually putting it into practice.
(45:46):
It's it,
that's the thing that,
that takes it from performative to actionable,
right?
You've got somebody who is tasked with reminding everybody about how you can push and be better in terms of creating a more inclusive environment um for your clients and for the team itself and the community,
I would presume.
(46:06):
Right.
Right.
I mean,
this,
this in a lot of ways was an outgrowth of,
of my values work.
You know,
I did a lot of my own personal exploration into anti racism and,
and looking at my own personal value of equity and,
(46:28):
you know,
what kind of personal work do I need to do to unlearn a lot of the harmful things that I've absorbed from,
you know,
living in a,
in a racist sexist uh culture.
And additionally,
a lot of it was born out of my own personal experience,
(46:48):
you know,
I'm a gay woman um and also neurodivergent.
And so I'm,
I know what it's like to be in spaces where I don't feel either safe or welcomed or valued.
And it was really important to me that none of our clients and none of our team members and none of the people that we partner with ever feel that way.
(47:11):
Um,
I want people to feel like they can show up as them as their whole selves.
They don't have to hide parts of themselves or,
or,
you know,
change how they're presenting themselves.
I want them to feel comfortable and like we're not just,
we're not just accepting them for who they are,
but,
but truly valuing because we know that their perspective is going to make us all better.
(47:37):
And so that's why de I is such like a core part of our business as a meeting that we,
you know,
we never skip it.
We have a meeting at least once a month.
Um And we also try to embed that discussion into our other meetings and other other things that we're trying to do in the company.
(47:57):
But that's a non negotiable for me that at least once a month,
we will talk about an issue,
you know,
um especially right now,
trans kids are under attack in so many states.
And so it's really important to us to educate ourselves on those issues and brainstorm as a team about what,
what we can do to be a safe supportive place for not,
(48:24):
not only the art,
the trans kids that,
that we work with,
um but also for,
for everyone to be engaged in just learning how to be a,
a more um equitable person.
And I think also we were really interested in disrupting the school to prison pipeline,
(48:49):
I think for black students,
school can um it has the potential to be such a place of joy.
Um And yet it often is a place that is really harmful.
And so we're really intentional about thinking about how and our work can we create a more equitable future for kids?
(49:12):
I,
I love that you're doing like really deep work with such a small team.
You know,
so often I hear from people like,
you know,
it's,
you know,
time,
money and energy is the thing that prevents them from either having an impact or leaning into de I in a way because people,
I think small business owners have so much on their plate,
they feel like,
oh,
that's really reserved for a larger company.
(49:34):
I can't bring that in.
Um But really what you're talking about is you dual hatted somebody and you're,
you're carving out intentionally an hour to an hour and a half of dedicated time,
a month or whatever the length of the meeting is,
but it's intentional and it has a cadence and there's accountability around it and you're thinking about how to drive it through so you can do it.
(49:59):
Absolutely.
I think one really important thing is that team member approached me and uh and wanted this role.
Um And I think for any small business that's kind of uh considering doing something like this,
which I would highly recommend um that,
(50:19):
that having a team member who wants to grow in that way um is really essential because you also want to be careful not to um put that role on someone who,
who maybe doesn't want it.
Um Especially because there's a tendency for um people with marginalized identities to kind of have to take on those roles and,
(50:42):
and often for no additional pay and things like that.
So I think making sure it's grounded in choice and autonomy is a really great way to avoid that,
that issue.
But yeah,
I mean,
it doesn't,
it doesn't take that much time to really have a big impact because once you do the upfront work,
(51:04):
kind of like the values work when it becomes just part of your conversations and part of the way you think it becomes more and more effortless,
it's just a part of who you are and not something additional that you have to add on again.
You've,
you've created flow for the,
for the company as a whole in that,
in that one dimension,
right?
In a sense that's a,
(51:25):
that's a great way to think about it.
Yeah,
I hadn't,
I hadn't thought about it that way.
So one of the questions I like to sort of wrap us up and end on is,
and you've touched on this a few,
few times,
you've said repeatedly,
you've had to unlearn things um that there are things that are kind of weighing down business owners in terms of the shoulds of running a business.
(51:47):
Um What rule have you had to break in your business in order to move forward?
I think this isn't a business rule,
but it's a,
it's a personal rule that I had for myself,
which was perfection.
Perfection is so toxic and yet it's an expectation that I have for myself.
(52:11):
And um quite obviously anyone listening is like you can't,
you can't be perfect in business.
Um It literally doesn't exist.
So I've had to break that rule for myself and get comfortable with failing,
overcoming challenges,
getting things out there before they're fully ready because I know that I need the feedback from clients to,
(52:37):
to improve it and make it better.
And then also just the expectations for myself as a leader.
I mean,
I think you can hear from this conversation that I care very deeply about making sure I've created uh a values driven business and that I do really well for my team.
And yet I make mistakes every single day all the time.
(52:58):
There are,
there's a zillion times I've acted out of alignment with my values or done something said something in a way that I wish I could say differently.
And I've had to learn that is all part of it and making that mistake is not,
is not the bad part,
not learning from.
It would be the bad part.
(53:18):
So I'm committed to so always learning and you know,
I know,
my business will be better for it and my impact on the world will be better for it.
What a perfect way to end Caroline.
Thank you so much for your time.
If people want to get in touch with you in terms of your business,
how can they reach you?
Www dot empower,
academic coaching.com?
(53:39):
All right.
Awesome.
Thanks for your time.
Thanks for helping us think through values and uh like I all the 100 things that we just talked about you,
you continue to inspire me.
So thank you right back out to you.
You can find Michael Messer at discerning strategies.com.
Set up a free 20 minute consultation,
(54:02):
clarify your goals,
scale your business,
amplify your impact,
discerning strategies.com.
What does growth look like in your business in your life as a business owner,
executive or individual,
you can live and lead with intention to create the change you want to see in your community and the world.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies Podcast,
a place where we can see clearly and act wisely.
(00:32):
Hi,
everybody.
Welcome to the Discerning Strategies podcast and I am your host,
Michael Messer.
And today I am joined by a friend and a fabulous entrepreneur,
Caroline Sumner,
who is the CEO and founder of empower academic coaching.
Hey,
Caroline,
how's it going?
Hey,
I'm so happy to be here.
(00:52):
Awesome.
You know,
when we were thinking about,
you know,
putting this podcast together,
one of the things I talk about all the time is like impact and like living your values and you are such an inspiring and interesting person in that regard.
And so I really wanna talk about how you are living your values as a business owner with power.
(01:16):
But before we get there,
why don't we just start?
Tell us what does empower kind coaching actually,
do we help students who are overwhelmed and stressed out by school gain confidence and be successful by teaching them the academic skills they need to succeed as well as the life skills they need to succeed and enjoy learning.
Again,
(01:37):
I got inspired to do that because I was a teacher,
I taught middle and high school for seven years and teaching is a really tough job.
There's as,
you know,
there's so many things that go into your day that I felt I had to focus so much on the what of learning and it didn't have enough time to address the how.
(01:58):
So I got inspired to start in power.
Specifically the last year I was teaching when I had this amazing group of seventh graders and I saw them for two classes a day.
So I got to know them really well.
I taught them science and English and I found that they were so smart,
curious,
(02:19):
insightful,
but you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell that from some of the outward metrics,
like their report card or some of the feedback they were getting from other teachers.
And so I got curious about that disparity and that's when I learned more about executive functioning skills.
So these are the skills that we use as business executives.
Um It's things like planning,
(02:41):
organizing,
prioritizing,
having a strategy and those are things that you need,
just as you need them to be successful in business,
you need them to be a successful student and to learn all the things that you have to learn in middle high school and college.
And so I got interested in learning more about how those develop in people and some people can kind of pick them up on the fly.
(03:06):
That's probably how a lot of us learned,
but people can really benefit from some explicit instruction around those skills.
And I got just obsessed with continuing once I saw the results that students were getting and seeing that newfound confidence.
And that's,
that's how I started in 2018.
(03:26):
And we've been going strong ever since.
And now I have a great group of three other full time former teachers who work with me to live out this mission.
That's awesome.
You know,
one of the first questions I remember asking you is you're calling yourself an academic coach.
Like,
how is that different from a tutor?
And I think you just answered it,
which is like you're focusing as much on the how and the skills like the,
(03:49):
the kind of the executive function stuff.
It's not just about mastering whatever the subject is exactly.
And the way that I explain it to parents who are a little bit concerned that maybe their child,
they know they could benefit from it,
but they're not really sure if they'll buy in because maybe they have had a tutor in the past and that hasn't gone so well because you don't get me wrong.
(04:12):
There's great tutors,
but sometimes kids can associate it with a deficit that they have.
That maybe not everyone in their class needs a tutor and why do they need one?
They must not be good at something.
Whereas a coach,
everyone benefits from having a coach,
even the top Olympic athletes have a coach to help them meet their own personal goals.
And so that's how I frame it for kids and then it becomes more empowering for them rather than,
(04:38):
uh,
a failing of theirs.
100%.
I remember having a math tutor when I was young and I was not doing well in math.
You know,
I was that kid and that whole deficit mindset was definitely there.
I think back then it was quite some time ago.
Uh,
people didn't have tutors even as,
as frequently as they do now.
(05:00):
And I think it really stuck with me.
I,
like,
had in my head that I was just bad at math,
which was a complete lie until I got to graduate school.
And then I was like,
wait a sec,
I have to do calculus now in graduate school and I,
I can do it just fine.
Like it just so much of it is mindset and it's interesting just coach to coach when you talk about executive functioning skills.
(05:20):
Um,
that's a lot of what I do too.
I mean,
we don't,
it,
it is not unusual for people not to pick up the skills that you just kind of think everybody assumes you're gonna be able to be a great planner by the time you start your business or you get out into the workforce or,
you know,
how you wanna manage your time.
Like that is so much of what I work with myself,
(05:42):
with adults.
Right.
So I think it's great that you're,
you're starting early with the kids.
Right.
Yeah.
And I think that's such a great point that you raise that adults struggle with these skills too.
And I think to some extent you can,
you can get better at anything that you want to.
But on the other hand,
I think we are all imbued with certain gifts and talents and things that we gravitate towards.
(06:09):
And there's something to be said for how as adults we learn to navigate.
What,
what is something that's a strength of ours and then what's something that maybe we could get someone's support on?
Maybe if I'm not good at scheduling,
I need to bring in someone who has that type of brain to help me organize my business.
And I think kids sometimes get the message that they need to be able to do it all just thinking about the way that school is set up.
(06:36):
They're expected to get all A's in every single class and they're expected to also have all the skills that they need to be able to do that.
And there's so much focus on independence.
But I think it's equally as valuable to know when to be interdependent when to get support and how to ask for that.
So that's something that's really core to what we do as well,
(06:57):
helping students know,
when do I need help and how do I get it?
I think what you're saying is,
is so true.
I mean,
with executives,
like I work with executives,
right?
And there's this feeling and there's so much pressure and stress,
I think from people that have experienced a certain degree of success in their careers and their professional lives,
(07:20):
but they feel like they have to do it all.
And that's just not true.
Like even when,
when I work with business owners and we think about like,
how do you create a strategy for your business?
It's about leveraging what you're good at and then figuring out how to overcome the thing that maybe you need a little bit more support on or you might consider a weakness of yours or an area of development or however you want to say it right?
(07:43):
We all have them.
I think it's so damaging sometimes to feel like in so many aspects of our lives that we have to be super people that we have to somehow have complete and utter mastery of all of these crazy things in a world that's becoming more complicated and faster paced and all,
all,
all of that.
So,
yeah,
(08:03):
I uh I see what you're saying just in terms of my own work as well.
Yeah,
there's so much unlearning that needs to be done.
I know a lot of the work that you do with people is helping you envision the business that you want to create and not just regurgitating what we've all internalized business should be.
(08:23):
And I,
I think when I hear you talk about the pressure that executives put on themselves and,
you know,
it reminds me of the pressure I've put on myself a lot of times,
I think it's that cultural value that many of us have,
have absorbed from the United States of just rugged individualism that you should be able to do it all on your own.
(08:47):
And what I try to do is think more about my business as an ecosystem.
So something where I need to have balance and there's multiple components that are all working together to lead to success.
And then it takes,
it not only takes the pressure off me,
but it leads to better results because a healthy ecosystem is,
(09:10):
is going to thrive and it's going to do,
you know,
justice to every everyone else who's part of that.
I love that.
Like this,
this idea of the ecosystem,
I do talk about that and I think about it business in those terms as well because there is this sense of interdependency right now.
I don't believe that much at,
at least for smaller businesses in competition.
(09:32):
II I believe in this ecosystem of like doing what's good for you and what you're good at and really leaning into that and then creating the structure to fill in the gaps or to work cooperatively and spread the wealth so that you can actually,
you know,
create coalitions to create change,
right?
Like that's really what an ecosystem is.
(09:53):
If you think about animals,
right?
They get really specialized in one thing and they don't try to go out and do the other thing because what's gonna end up happening,
they're gonna get eaten,
right?
But if you take that animal out of your ecosystem,
suddenly the whole thing falls apart and the ecosystem itself is,
(10:13):
is weaker as a result.
And so I kind of love that analogy.
Speaking of ecosystems and doing the thing you're good at um I,
you actually focus,
I know in your business on something that's really specific,
doing the thing that you're really good at.
Uh which is you work a lot with uh neurodivergent kids.
Yeah,
(10:34):
we love working with neurodivergent kids.
So those are kids who have some kind of brain difference,
like a DH D autism or learning disabilities,
there's lots of different just brain wirings that are not necessarily always well supported in the current school environment.
(11:00):
If you,
you know,
think back to your own school days.
Um I know for myself it's,
I had a lot of great experiences at school.
Don't get me wrong,
but in general,
it's an environment that is often designed for compliance it's designed for one way of thinking and that is harmful to a lot of kids who just think differently than the way that that is set up.
(11:24):
So one thing that really inspires me in,
in my business is it's estimated that by age 12,
a kid with a DH D will get about to more negative messages than a kid without.
And think about that,
the toll that,
that tapes and I see it with,
with the older students I work with and even adults,
(11:45):
my team is comprised of a lot of neurodivergent individuals as well.
And I am too and I have seen personally the impact that it has to feel out of the norm every single day.
And I think about the way that instructions are given at school,
maybe um a teacher is giving you like three different things to do at the beginning of class,
(12:11):
a student with a DH D one of the hallmark characteristics is you have an amazing long term memory,
but your working memory,
your ability to hold a few things in your brain and then go implement them is really weak comparatively.
And so that student may miss those three instructions and then they start to maybe look around the room,
(12:37):
see what other people are doing,
maybe whisper to a friend and try to figure it out,
maybe be kind of like shuffling papers,
like looking for what they missed or maybe just kind of disengage and be like,
let me hide and figure out how I can just let this pass and all of those things to an outsider who's not understanding what's going on is going to think the student is unfocused.
(12:58):
And,
you know,
if they're talking,
like,
maybe they're disrupting the class now and this is how kids start to get labeled as,
you know,
they're not serious students,
they're not motivated,
they're not trying hard and then kids start to internalize those messages.
And so I have seen the power,
it can have to stop that kind of messaging.
(13:19):
And I work really hard to create a supportive environment where kids can get,
you know,
get better at those things that are hard for them,
figure out strategies that will work for them and then build the confidence in themselves to know that there's nothing wrong with the way their brain is wired.
It's just different and difference is beautiful because it,
(13:41):
we,
you know,
as,
as I've heard you speak about on this podcast before and in our conversations,
our,
our strength comes from diversity from different perspectives and viewpoints and neurodivergent kids are uniquely equipped to provide that and we've got to give them the chance to do that.
I love that.
Like it's so interesting to me,
(14:01):
even in my own work,
when I run across clients,
the number of clients that are getting um later in life diagnoses for their own neuro divergence.
And it's really unlocking something for them.
And,
you know,
I've had some really kind of raw conversations,
like there's so much emotion behind that,
that people are,
(14:22):
like,
finally I'm starting to understand why certain things were going the way they were going for me.
Or suddenly I can actually access a little bit of compassion for myself because those voices and those,
like,
they were beating themselves up so hard in the ways they weren't able to show up um in contexts where expectations were different for them,
(14:46):
right?
Um And then,
you know,
I'm not uh you know,
certified to,
to necessarily work with a DH D individuals or people with those diagnoses.
Although I,
they number,
some of my clients have actually sent a few to you for some conversations in that regard.
Um um but it's really impactful,
(15:08):
I've seen for people to recognize it and then to try to move past it with intention.
Right?
Absolutely.
It doesn't surprise me that you would talk to so many individuals going through this because entrepreneurship lends itself to the neurodivergent brain being creative,
(15:30):
having what,
you know,
what's called divergent thinking,
like being able to generate a lot of possible solutions to a problem,
quick thinking.
Um w uh hyper focus so working really hard to solve a problem until it's solved.
These are all things that neuro divergent people thrive at.
And additionally,
(15:50):
you know,
thinking about the work that you do with clients on designing the business that they want to have,
that reflects their values.
You don't get to do that in a,
in a typical job.
Most of the time in a 9 to 5 job,
you are,
the expectations are set for you,
the hours are set for you.
Whereas in our own businesses,
(16:11):
we do have some freedom to create a system that works best for us.
And so that's been really freeing for me.
And I've really dedicated myself to creating a workplace that is really responsive to the neurodivergent brain,
you know,
building in flexible scheduling and different ways of communication.
(16:34):
Um being kind of responsive in the way that uh we generate goals as a team,
including everyone's voices,
doing a lot of professional learning about neuro divergence.
And so I think business has been great for me in that way in,
in just getting me to think outside of the box for myself and for others.
(16:58):
It's,
it's so interesting that you say that because I hadn't actually connected dots.
But you're right.
II,
I work oftentimes with people who are like super creative and I always say that like one of my superpowers is helping people see more possibilities than they think exist.
But these are oftentimes people who are really,
really good at that.
(17:19):
But then the trickiest part is once you can see this like wide range of things available to you choosing the one you wanna go after.
Right.
That's right.
And that's hard.
That can be hard and that can be scary actually for any,
for any business owner.
Um,
you are doing that right now in this space you're being really intentional around trying to serve this particular community.
(17:42):
Um,
and it's,
it's a niche,
right?
It's a niche for your business.
Um,
that's gotta feel a little bit scary.
I feel like I have that conversation a lot with people.
Uh I encourage them to figure out what they're good at what really fills them up,
what's values align and then do that thing and do it really well.
And people just get in this habit of thinking,
(18:06):
oh,
but I can't leave so much on the table because there's so many people I could be serving.
Why would I limit myself to just serving this population?
Um,
you are kind of really leaning into the ne divergent community of,
of Children out there that need support.
How has that journey been for you?
Is it hard to get there mentally in your own business to say this is what we're gonna do?
(18:26):
Parts of it were hard and,
and,
and parts were easy.
So I'll just share,
share how it worked out for me.
I know exactly what you're talking about and I've,
I've had conversations with many business owners about the same topic and I think when you're early on in business or when you're going through kind of a shift in your business,
I think it's very normal and natural to you need to take a bunch of work that may not be exactly what you want to,
(18:55):
what you,
what you're gonna end up doing because you've got to figure it out.
And so I think there's,
there's value in kind of,
you know,
tasting from the buffet of different types of clients and different types of work first.
So that then you get really clear on who you specifically want to serve.
And so that's what I did.
(19:17):
I,
I really started to hone in on neurodivergent kids for a few different reasons.
One is I just found that so we started to get more and more people who are asking for that.
So if,
if there's a,
a business owner listening,
who's wondering uh who wants a tangible tip?
(19:38):
I would say listen to your current clients.
What are the themes that are showing up for you?
Um A second thing I noticed is we were just really good at it.
Those are the students that we got the best results for and not just results for the student uh which was huge but also for their family.
They felt so much more peaceful and had better family relationships because school wasn't so much of a stressor.
(20:04):
And then third,
what I,
what I found out is that when we designed our programming with neurodivergent kids in mind,
I actually wasn't leaving anything on the table because what worked well for them really worked well for all of our students.
It was,
it was starting from a place of how can we help the people who are struggling the most right now under the current system of education and then as a result,
(20:33):
everyone,
um,
benefits.
So it didn't feel ok,
too hard for me to narrow down to specializing with neurodivergent kids because we continue to get other people who were a good fit clients who maybe just didn't have a diagnosis or didn't identify in that way.
Um I think the part that was hard about it is it is a little scary to the,
(20:59):
to change your branding and really put yourself out there as this is what we specialize in.
But the cool thing about business is you can always change.
I feel like I've reinvented myself 100 times over the past five years and we continue to do so.
So there's no harm in trying.
I think what,
you know,
one of the keys to succeeding in business is failing fast.
(21:22):
So try it out,
you know,
and if it doesn't work,
you can always regroup.
I love that.
Like it,
it so many of us are wired to be like,
ok,
I'm gonna make this decision and then suddenly it's like we're carving on the stone tablets on,
you know,
that they're never going to change and this is going to be our identity forever when in fact,
(21:45):
building a business is like being in the chemistry lab,
not really know knowing exactly what's in the vial but deciding to add two things together and hope it doesn't blow up in your face.
And if it does,
you've got your safety goggles on,
you've got your fire extinguisher and you move on.
Right.
Exactly.
The science teacher in me loves,
loves that analogy.
Exactly.
(22:06):
It's like,
you know,
the trick is like,
uh,
you know,
play with it but don't,
don't put,
you know,
don't maybe put too much capital behind any one big bet until you test it out.
That would be the business coach and me saying like,
yes,
experiment.
Uh but,
but don't go all in on one thing with uh too heavy until,
you know,
if it's gonna work.
Exactly.
(22:28):
Yeah,
that's,
that's awesome.
So,
you know,
one of the things that you're bringing up that also just energetically I think is so important is you hit on the fact that like these were the people that just felt good to serve.
Like it felt really like there was a vibe there for you.
You said we were good at serving these people.
And so you just continue to do more of it.
(22:51):
I think that's one of the things with mindset that I think is so important that I just wanted to call out,
which is,
I think we're all naturally resourceful,
creative and,
and whole in terms of what we need for ourselves and our business and listening to that voice that says this feels good and I need to do more of that.
I think for some reason we've been training ourselves to,
(23:13):
like,
not be in touch with that voice.
Um,
and there's a lot of wisdom there.
Right.
You know,
where we get a lot of training about not listening to that voice is cool.
Yeah,
I think,
I think,
and,
and,
you know,
I,
I love,
(23:34):
I have so much appreciation and admiration for teachers,
obviously I was one.
And so this is not in any way,
an indictment of them.
It's,
it's just about the school system has a lot of things in place that aren't working for teachers either.
So,
uh I think that we just,
the way the school is set up,
we're taught to not listen to our voice,
(23:55):
even something as simple as when you're hungry,
you can't necessarily eat.
Maybe there's a rule against eating in class.
And so I think over time,
we,
we are kind of taught to like disconnect from some of those very basic biological instincts that we have and that also impacts just our listening to our inner,
(24:16):
inner wisdom as well.
And I think we're also taught that to succeed,
means to work hard and for it to somehow be,
be a slog through,
through something really challenging and difficult.
You know,
if you think about what kids are praised for,
it's like working hard and like studying a lot and you know,
(24:39):
doing whatever it takes to get certain,
certain grades.
And so I think that tricks a lot of us into thinking that if something is easy that it's somehow not worth it,
sometimes I will in a coaching session and I will just feel so light,
it will feel effortless to me.
(24:59):
And it has taken me a long time to realize that that is when I'm having the most impact because I was in my flow state,
I was drawing upon my resources,
gifts and strengths and it didn't feel difficult.
And I'm,
you know,
of course,
there are things that feel difficult in business and in life and those can be valuable too.
(25:20):
But we already listened to that very easily.
I think we need to get better at listening to.
Where are things easy?
Where do I have gifts and how can I use those 100%?
I,
I love the flow state,
right?
Like when I,
when I work with people on like just their personal effectiveness at work,
um Same thing focus on your flow state like that's where you're generating your greatest return on energy,
(25:46):
right?
Is when you're in that flow state because it's effortless to you,
your output and your outcomes and your creativity and everything about what you're doing is resonating and,
and,
and and causing a positive impact,
everything that's not in flow state.
You,
you basically have a choice,
right?
It's either delegate or eliminate or time box.
(26:08):
Like maybe you can't do,
maybe you can't delegate it and you have to do it.
But it's,
that's where you start kind of chipping away at the constraints and figuring out well,
where are the resources that we need to bring in?
Because really,
as an entrepreneur,
you need to be doing the thing that is generating the greatest return for your business.
And that's usually when you're in that flow state.
(26:29):
Absolutely.
Um I'm curious though.
So my spouse is a teacher as well and uh so much of what you're saying about the institution of education in this country is resonating with me.
Uh Teachers,
like honestly,
often just aren't empowered to do the thing that they need to do.
(26:50):
Like,
you know,
my husband's a math teacher and he's got kids in his class,
you know,
he teaches fifth grade and they're at a first or second grade level,
he doesn't get the option of meeting them where they're at.
Yeah.
And then when I think about the difficulties for teachers to engage with students that might have neuro divers and uh neurodiversity issues or neurodivergent thought processes,
(27:18):
that's a lot of skill that you're asking the teachers to bring in.
Like,
how can you actually,
or how can we support teachers to be more effective,
given how hard their job is these days?
That's a great question.
And I,
I think it comes from asking the teachers.
(27:41):
So for those people who are listening right now,
I just encourage you to,
to reach out to the teachers in your own lives and ask what kind of support they need.
And I think I,
I'm a big believer in small actions,
having,
having a big impact and it may not seem like so big a deal to ask a teacher in your life what they need and for them to say I really need,
(28:10):
you know,
$25 towards supplies in my classroom.
You may not think that makes a big difference,
but to teachers who are constantly buying their own school supplies that may just free up some mental space and some stress and they may be able to do some really cool project with their class that they wouldn't normally be able to do.
And I think if their answer is something that maybe you're not able to do as easily,
(28:34):
I think just listening to that and,
and thinking about how you can be part of,
of the solution.
One thing we're trying to do and empower to be part of that solution is to partner with schools and do some professional development and curriculum development that will help teachers incorporate executive function skills more easily.
(28:57):
And that is always our approach because I have sat in so many professional developments as a teacher where it was either from people who didn't understand what I was going through or who had,
you know,
just they had things to teach me,
but it was going to take so much more work.
So we'd really try to be careful and thoughtful in what we're developing,
(29:21):
that it will enable teachers to feel more empowered,
more equipped to better reach those students without a ton of,
of extra work.
Um And that has,
that's just been really exciting because at the same time,
it's also increasing our impact,
you know,
our foundational service is,
(29:42):
is 1 to 1 academic coaching and with a school,
we can suddenly impact thousands of kids and,
and hundreds of teachers,
I know that there are so many teachers who have neurodivergent kids in their class and don't have a cote or someone else who can support them.
So,
right now,
(30:02):
we're specifically working on some,
some things that can help those teachers know what,
what to do and,
and how to best support those students.
But,
yeah,
I think at the end of the day if we're all asking the teachers in our lives,
what,
what they need from us,
I think we could do a lot of collective good.
Yeah,
I'm actually struck by just these national trends where teachers have somehow become less trusted.
(30:28):
It's,
it's,
it's,
it's actually what's happening is the reverse of what you're suggesting.
It's,
it's actually taking more discretion away from teachers and it doesn't really seem to be replaced by anything at home.
Right.
That's the thing.
I don't get it because honestly a teacher can do anything when,
(30:49):
when I meet someone and I know that they're a teacher or a former teacher.
I'm automatically impressed because I know they can literally do anything.
Teaching is the hardest job.
You have to basically be a project manager.
Um,
a,
a curriculum developer,
you've got,
(31:11):
you know,
you,
you're taking care of other people's Children all day long.
Everyone can,
can remember,
uh,
a hurtful comment that a teacher made to them.
You've got to be extremely a skilled communicator who makes sure that you're not damaging kids.
You're building them up.
You've got to be like a mental health counselor a lot of times there and,
(31:34):
and I,
I,
you know,
I just rattled off those things,
but there's a,
a list 1000 miles long of things that teachers have to do.
So I think it,
we're doing a huge disservice to not listen to teachers because they certainly have,
have the answers about how to solve this problem.
And so if,
(31:54):
if on a national level people aren't listening,
then what we can do is on a,
on a small scale level.
Let's ask some teachers what they need.
I love that,
you know,
common theme on this podcast.
Small things have big results.
Um kind of along those lines like you've been in business now for what five years you said you started in 2018 and you're now thinking about amplifying your impact and you're doing that intentionally by now partnering,
(32:20):
not just in a one on one context,
but taking it to schools and districts and that kind of thing.
What was that journey like when you did you,
did you have an intention when you started your business about the type of impact you wanted to see through your business?
Absolutely not.
I love it.
So,
yeah,
so let's like,
(32:40):
so how did that happen?
I'll be honest,
when I started my business,
I just knew I needed to get out of the school environment,
I think because of my undiagnosed at the time,
neuro divergence to to I loved the kids like,
right,
the kids are always amazing.
(33:02):
It was literally being in a school building that was very overwhelming for me to be around that much noise and like fluorescent lights and um it's just a very chaotic environment and I do much better with a peaceful environment.
So I knew I needed to get out of there and wanted to work with kids.
And I honestly had just taken on a few private clients while I was still teaching and I kind of calculated,
(33:28):
you know,
how can I,
how many kids would I need to work with to replace this teacher income?
And I thought,
you know,
this will work as a transition.
I'm not sure what's next for me,
but this,
this will be a good interim move.
And now here I am five years later,
I think when I first started thinking about having a bigger impact,
(33:52):
uh It was by accident at first because I got fully booked and I needed to start bringing in team members.
And once I started doing that,
something really cool happened.
I kind of had this idea that me as the business owner,
I'm always going to care about my business the most and I've been an employee before,
(34:13):
like I care very much about what I do.
But at the end of the day,
it's not my thing.
Like I wasn't running the school I was working at.
So in some ways I could detach a bit and I kind of expected my employees to be the same way without any judgment about that.
I just thought,
you know,
for them,
it's a job and I know they're going to be amazing at what they do,
but I'm not expecting anything past that.
(34:36):
And I'm,
I've been very thoughtful and intentional about which people I bring into my company.
I make sure to find people who really align with the values of the company.
And so when they come in,
they come in with their own dreams and visions that are so inspiring to me that it,
(35:00):
it forces me to dream bigger.
That actually the way that we started working with our first school that we did uh an executive function curriculum for is one of my employees pursued it.
I was very much thinking,
I don't know if we're ready for this.
You know,
we could do a bit more research,
we could do a bit more planning,
uh kind of getting into that.
(35:21):
A little bit imposter syndrome,
but of like,
really?
Are we ready for this?
And she feels like,
yes,
we absolutely are ready for this.
Look,
look at what we've accomplished so far.
Look,
everything we've done,
like,
let's put it together.
And so they help me see what I might talk myself out of envisioning and I,
I love that and I'm so grateful to them for that.
(35:43):
You know,
you think I'm thinking back on,
on,
on what I talk about all the time,
which is like when,
when businesses wanna have impact,
one of the things I say is impact starts at home and impact starts at home in my world largely means where like it needs to be bottomless up,
(36:07):
it needs to be organic and you need to talk to your employees.
That's exactly what you did.
Like basically,
like they brought you on a journey that's now helping you magnify your impact to create more business opportunities and grow because you effectively were willing to be present and open to what they brought to the table.
(36:28):
Is that fair or am I am I like putting too much of a cherry on top of that Sunday?
No,
II,
I fully agree with that cherry on that Sunday.
And I think so some people might,
might hear that and think well,
but I,
you know,
I'm the leader of the business.
Like I'm the one who should be setting the vision and you can still use your discernment and,
you know,
(36:48):
I don't go with every idea they,
they bring to me but I,
I am listening for the things that do resonate and,
you know,
why have a team if I'm not going to listen to them every good part of my business,
uh,
you know,
I,
I think it has come from,
from my team.
I,
I'm just being brought back to the ecosystem.
You're creating the ecosystem,
(37:08):
they're part of the ecosystem,
they're bringing different things to the table than you do.
Exactly.
And then it makes,
it makes me stronger as a result and it helps all of us and because they bring that to me,
you know,
I do everything I can to also provide for them and in the ways that I think employers should provide for the,
for their team.
(37:30):
So I definitely want to touch on that.
But there's a,
you used a word that's near and dear to my heart,
which is discernment.
You use discernment.
So my company is called discerning strategy.
So clearly,
the discernment word catches my attention.
I don't know if you did that on practice,
but you did look at you.
Um No,
but like it,
it is a question for me and I'm,
I'm always curious like,
(37:53):
where did,
where does this discernment for you come from?
Like you are creating this to people,
you're like open to bringing these incredible people and you're inspired by the people that you're hiring.
Um They're throwing ideas at you.
Some of them resonate others.
Don't you get to choose?
Like,
what are you basing this discernment on at the end of the day for yourself and your own business?
(38:16):
My values.
So um I,
I swear to the people out there listening to this,
I did not pay Caroline to say that,
but I love that.
She just did.
So,
of course,
we're gonna have to go there.
Love to talk about values,
right?
What are your values?
Like,
how do they help our company values are empowerment,
(38:41):
peace,
thoughtfulness and equity.
And this is a really tough journey.
But I will say one thing that I'm forever grateful that I did is very early on in my business.
I realized I was kind of uh repeating internalized negative business traits just because it's what we are exposed to as we grow up and,
(39:12):
and it's what we think business is all about.
And I found myself repeating things that I really didn't want to repeat.
I wanted to re envision and create a business that I could really be proud of.
And that was doing things differently.
And so I worked with a coach,
Trudy lebron and she helped me get really crystal clear on my values.
(39:36):
And through that,
through that work of figuring out what those values are.
And now I have a compass that I can use for every tough decision in my business.
So I use it for really everything.
We use it in our team meetings to determine like what topics that we're discussing and how we're discussing them.
(39:59):
We use it in our hiring process.
I'm very,
I list all my values in the job posting.
And I also describe what they,
what they mean to me and what,
you know,
how I,
how I am hopeful that applicants would relate to those values.
I put them in my agreements that clients sign uh right at the beginning so that people can read those and we can make sure that,
(40:25):
that we're in alignment,
no judgment if a client doesn't align with those values.
But I want to make sure that like,
I don't think you're gonna be happy if those don't match up.
So let's go ahead and talk about them upfront and that investment upfront has led to so much such richer client relationships because we're starting from a place of our common values.
(40:48):
I even use it when I'm thinking about things like my appointment reminders.
Like what,
what does it say in the email?
Making sure it's empowering like that they have all the links that they need right there.
That it's thoughtful.
I've included all the information,
the policies that they might need to refer to.
So it's,
it's just really helped me because I don't have to re invent the wheel when I'm going through a tough decision.
(41:10):
Like do I want to make this investment,
you know,
do I want to start this new,
new program?
I can just come back to those values and think about which option is going to get me the closest to satisfying all of them or is there one of them that really needs to be prioritized right now?
Yeah,
I love that level of intention and that's exactly what values are for.
(41:34):
You know,
what's really interesting to me is I run across people that oftentimes express some level of dissatisfaction with where their business is.
Um They don't feel like they're being intentional,
they don't feel like they're being focused um in terms of the opportunities they're pursuing or just something feels off.
(41:54):
And when I ask them,
well,
do you have values or how do you feel about the values that are showing up in your business?
I sometimes get crickets or there's a vibe of like,
oh,
that's just kind of performative and oftentimes that's kind of where we need to.
(42:15):
I feel like we need to start for exactly the reasons that you're mentioning,
right?
Like they're not really the poster on the wall.
It's for decision making.
That's what they're there for.
Yeah.
And what's so cool is,
would you bring in a team who has those same values?
Then you've got people who can remind you when you're out of alignment with them?
(42:38):
And I find that when I'm feeling that way,
when I'm feeling like a little dissatisfied with my business.
It's usually something is out of alignment with my values.
And so you have to think about them really intentionally first in order for you to be able to kind of diagnose that problem.
And it,
you know that like that's how values are,
(42:59):
you're never going to be perfectly following all of them because we have to live in a world with other values flying at us all the time.
It's like you always have to kind of come back home and,
and get realigned and having a team around you who can help remind you of that is so powerful because it just shortens the the process so much.
(43:22):
Absolutely.
And not only that,
but I think it attracts the right people,
right?
Like if you're gonna be making those decisions,
I mean,
you're bringing people in the door that already say,
yeah,
this is something that's important to me personally and I can get behind,
right?
And so you're creating by,
by virtue of these values that are shared and mutually understood the foundation for a culture that can then go out and kind of they can become your evangelists in the community,
(43:51):
in the bus in the market that you're trying to serve about what it is you're actually trying to do.
And that's exactly what has happened.
I haven't even had to ask them to do that,
but they're so excited about what we're doing that they,
they can't help but,
but talk about it and,
you know,
I'm thinking about what you said earlier,
how sometimes people think like identifying values can be,
(44:13):
yeah,
kind of performative or like,
you know,
there's other important things to be doing.
Like I need to like hit my revenue goals.
I need to,
you know,
figure out this,
figure out how I'm going to hire someone next.
Um There are all these other things in our business that add up.
But when you do this part first,
it truly makes everything else easier because now you have a foundation and,
(44:37):
and the problems become not just separate things like you don't just have like revenue that you're thinking about and your team that you're,
that you're thinking about and your client delivery that you're thinking about,
instead,
all of those things are spokes that are coming out from your main hub of,
of your values and you can start to see how they're interrelated.
(44:58):
Absolutely.
There's one thing that you do that is related to the values.
Um I believe it shut up in one of your values,
but it is a little bit unusual,
I think for a business of your size,
you've got,
you said three people on staff.
Did I get that right?
Three people on staff?
Ok.
So you're a cozy team.
Um,
you actually hired ad E I person.
(45:20):
Yes.
So one of our coaches.
So because we're a small company,
everyone also has an additional role uh for the company.
And so one of the coaches is our DE I coordinator,
um Tiffany Insa and she is,
she's wonderful at it.
And that's,
that's really cool because what's inspiring to me about that is it's actually taking the value around inclusion and actually putting it into practice.
(45:46):
It's it,
that's the thing that,
that takes it from performative to actionable,
right?
You've got somebody who is tasked with reminding everybody about how you can push and be better in terms of creating a more inclusive environment um for your clients and for the team itself and the community,
I would presume.
(46:06):
Right.
Right.
I mean,
this,
this in a lot of ways was an outgrowth of,
of my values work.
You know,
I did a lot of my own personal exploration into anti racism and,
and looking at my own personal value of equity and,
(46:28):
you know,
what kind of personal work do I need to do to unlearn a lot of the harmful things that I've absorbed from,
you know,
living in a,
in a racist sexist uh culture.
And additionally,
a lot of it was born out of my own personal experience,
(46:48):
you know,
I'm a gay woman um and also neurodivergent.
And so I'm,
I know what it's like to be in spaces where I don't feel either safe or welcomed or valued.
And it was really important to me that none of our clients and none of our team members and none of the people that we partner with ever feel that way.
(47:11):
Um,
I want people to feel like they can show up as them as their whole selves.
They don't have to hide parts of themselves or,
or,
you know,
change how they're presenting themselves.
I want them to feel comfortable and like we're not just,
we're not just accepting them for who they are,
but,
but truly valuing because we know that their perspective is going to make us all better.
(47:37):
And so that's why de I is such like a core part of our business as a meeting that we,
you know,
we never skip it.
We have a meeting at least once a month.
Um And we also try to embed that discussion into our other meetings and other other things that we're trying to do in the company.
(47:57):
But that's a non negotiable for me that at least once a month,
we will talk about an issue,
you know,
um especially right now,
trans kids are under attack in so many states.
And so it's really important to us to educate ourselves on those issues and brainstorm as a team about what,
what we can do to be a safe supportive place for not,
(48:24):
not only the art,
the trans kids that,
that we work with,
um but also for,
for everyone to be engaged in just learning how to be a,
a more um equitable person.
And I think also we were really interested in disrupting the school to prison pipeline,
(48:49):
I think for black students,
school can um it has the potential to be such a place of joy.
Um And yet it often is a place that is really harmful.
And so we're really intentional about thinking about how and our work can we create a more equitable future for kids?
(49:12):
I,
I love that you're doing like really deep work with such a small team.
You know,
so often I hear from people like,
you know,
it's,
you know,
time,
money and energy is the thing that prevents them from either having an impact or leaning into de I in a way because people,
I think small business owners have so much on their plate,
they feel like,
oh,
that's really reserved for a larger company.
(49:34):
I can't bring that in.
Um But really what you're talking about is you dual hatted somebody and you're,
you're carving out intentionally an hour to an hour and a half of dedicated time,
a month or whatever the length of the meeting is,
but it's intentional and it has a cadence and there's accountability around it and you're thinking about how to drive it through so you can do it.
(49:59):
Absolutely.
I think one really important thing is that team member approached me and uh and wanted this role.
Um And I think for any small business that's kind of uh considering doing something like this,
which I would highly recommend um that,
(50:19):
that having a team member who wants to grow in that way um is really essential because you also want to be careful not to um put that role on someone who,
who maybe doesn't want it.
Um Especially because there's a tendency for um people with marginalized identities to kind of have to take on those roles and,
(50:42):
and often for no additional pay and things like that.
So I think making sure it's grounded in choice and autonomy is a really great way to avoid that,
that issue.
But yeah,
I mean,
it doesn't,
it doesn't take that much time to really have a big impact because once you do the upfront work,
(51:04):
kind of like the values work when it becomes just part of your conversations and part of the way you think it becomes more and more effortless,
it's just a part of who you are and not something additional that you have to add on again.
You've,
you've created flow for the,
for the company as a whole in that,
in that one dimension,
right?
In a sense that's a,
(51:25):
that's a great way to think about it.
Yeah,
I hadn't,
I hadn't thought about it that way.
So one of the questions I like to sort of wrap us up and end on is,
and you've touched on this a few,
few times,
you've said repeatedly,
you've had to unlearn things um that there are things that are kind of weighing down business owners in terms of the shoulds of running a business.
(51:47):
Um What rule have you had to break in your business in order to move forward?
I think this isn't a business rule,
but it's a,
it's a personal rule that I had for myself,
which was perfection.
Perfection is so toxic and yet it's an expectation that I have for myself.
(52:11):
And um quite obviously anyone listening is like you can't,
you can't be perfect in business.
Um It literally doesn't exist.
So I've had to break that rule for myself and get comfortable with failing,
overcoming challenges,
getting things out there before they're fully ready because I know that I need the feedback from clients to,
(52:37):
to improve it and make it better.
And then also just the expectations for myself as a leader.
I mean,
I think you can hear from this conversation that I care very deeply about making sure I've created uh a values driven business and that I do really well for my team.
And yet I make mistakes every single day all the time.
(52:58):
There are,
there's a zillion times I've acted out of alignment with my values or done something said something in a way that I wish I could say differently.
And I've had to learn that is all part of it and making that mistake is not,
is not the bad part,
not learning from.
It would be the bad part.
(53:18):
So I'm committed to so always learning and you know,
I know,
my business will be better for it and my impact on the world will be better for it.
What a perfect way to end Caroline.
Thank you so much for your time.
If people want to get in touch with you in terms of your business,
how can they reach you?
Www dot empower,
academic coaching.com?
(53:39):
All right.
Awesome.
Thanks for your time.
Thanks for helping us think through values and uh like I all the 100 things that we just talked about you,
you continue to inspire me.
So thank you right back out to you.
You can find Michael Messer at discerning strategies.com.
Set up a free 20 minute consultation,
(54:02):
clarify your goals,
scale your business,
amplify your impact,
discerning strategies.com.
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