April 28, 2024 • 31 mins
Kat Hausler, author of Retrograde and What I Know About July, joins Kara this month to talk about thrillers, literary fiction, and how exactly to pronounce "linearly".
Kat's Website: www.kathausler.com
Instagram: @kat_hausler
Kara's Website: www.midwrite.com
Instagram: @midwriteworlds
Email the show: edibuddiespod@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I kind of really like books where the scariness is like the social interaction that is happening.
Music.
Hi, Edibuddies. Welcome back to the Edibuddies podcast.
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I'm your host, Kara. I am a developmental and copy editor, and on my show we
talk about writing, editing, and the friends you can make along the way.
Today we're visiting the world of literary thrillers with up-and-coming author Kat Hausler.
There are some people for whom the word literary brings up images of upturned
(00:43):
noses and dense, incomprehensible prose, but Kat doesn't believe this has to be the case.
In her novels, concept and characters work together to create compelling narratives
full of twists and suspense.
Literary fiction is about telling a story while also exploring something deeper
(01:04):
about the human condition, and it's not afraid to get experimental with its
structure or use of language.
If you're someone for whom literary fiction seems intimidating,
I hope after this interview you'll be inspired to try it out.
I'm originally from Virginia, and I studied in New York and then ended up in
(01:28):
Berlin, where I live now, because I originally wanted to major in creative writing.
And then the college of NYU that I was at was like, that's not a major here.
So I majored in German studies and did semester abroad here.
And yeah, I was like, this is, nope, it's not New York. It's this city.
(01:52):
It clicked for you. It felt like the spot for you.
Yeah. I mean, I'll say actually the first couple of days I was in Berlin,
which was pretty different back then. It's just like 2007.
I was like, is this even a city? Because there's no businesses near,
you know, this apartment.
(02:13):
Because I was so used to the consolidation of New York and like every single
apartment building is going to have the shops downstairs.
But no, I mean, within a short amount of time, then I discovered more stuff
and was no longer like, but where do I buy toilet paper?
Right. I had to get over that culture shock for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
(02:34):
What were some of the first or like, what are some of the early stories that
you remember really making you go, not just I like reading this,
but I want to write something like this?
I want to say maybe Lois Duncan's books. I read a lot of those as kind of a preteen.
I guess her most famous is I Know What You Did Last Summer, which is so different in the movie.
(02:55):
But definitely reading those was something where I felt like,
yeah, it would be fun to also write books like this.
And I mean, not that I only write thrillers or something, but I definitely I
must say I read like 20 of her books at that age.
What do you feel like it was about those books specifically?
(03:16):
I think that there was just a lot of interiority with the characters and feeling
like you really were experiencing stuff with them.
And I mean, that's something that's still really important to me now.
Like I tend to write everything either. I mean, mostly close third,
sometimes first person, but like really just want to be in the character's head.
(03:38):
Can you talk a little bit about what makes something like literary
versus just a regular thriller yeah i
mean literary in terms of it's not
just about the plot it's not just about what happens next
and is it kind of a thrilling plot line but
it's about how the language is and you know how how things are phrased and i
(04:02):
most enjoy reading reading a thriller myself or any kind of book if the words
just really flow and i sometimes think like oh that's a beautiful sentence or
that that's insightful.
That's something I have felt before, but not been able to put into words myself.
So I try to recreate that experience.
Yeah. So you've written two books so far, two full-length novels and several short stories.
(04:27):
Just in general, what does your writing process look like?
Where do you get your inspiration? And then how do you develop inspiration?
I am always being like, I wish my writing process were different from what it
is. I don't know a writer who doesn't think that.
I just always have this vision that like other writers are much more organized somehow.
But I often just start with just the smallest idea or even kind of maybe a feeling
(04:55):
that I want to look into more.
Like my first novel, Retrograde, is about basically this estranged couple.
We are the wife then has retrograde amnesia and her estranged husband is like,
I don't know how to tell her. Or am I just going to pretend this never happened and we're together?
But I didn't initially think about this as like an amnesia plot line, but about,
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the period in a relationship where things are just all going wrong and people
start to have this thought like, what if we could go back to when it was different
and when it was good and couldn't we start over?
But they can't start over because
the past is there and everything they've experienced and all the fights.
(05:40):
So I was thinking about that in the case of my new novel, What I Know About
July, which is about this anxious musician who's creepy number one fan who's
basically stalking him, disappears.
And so my thought there was I'm just so interested in the kind of celebrity fan relationship.
(06:04):
So I almost was just going to write a short story about that originally,
and then I got really interested.
So yeah, I guess my writing process This is just, I'm just always noting down,
like, what if this, what if that, some weird idea I want to look into more.
And, you know, and then eventually kind of the scenes that I can actively picture
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and then kind of just later on trying to link it up and flesh it out.
So you write non-linearly? You kind of like just write as what you see and then
you piecemeal it together, you quilt it together? other?
I would say I wrote retrograde pretty linearly.
(06:47):
Why did you say this word? I'm so sorry.
Okay. Because that was one where I was very focused on kind of leaving the ending
open as long as possible.
So I was just doing like kind of scene for a scene and trying to develop the
two perspectives that way.
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What I know about July, I wrote some of the main scenes that I could really
picture first and then kind of had like sort of like placeholder notes,
like, you know, this is what needs to happen in between.
And then I eventually went through and was kind of filling it all out.
And that one, I would say, wrote the ending pretty early on.
(07:30):
So that one was all over the place for sure. Yes.
That's really interesting, though, that you kind of took a very different approach
with these two, with your two different novels.
And what I heard you say about both of them is that you started more with the concept,
with the idea that you were trying to play with in an abstract sense,
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this idea of can we go back to the way things were and using this story and
this vehicle of amnesia to explore that concept.
And then with this new novel, you are using the story of this musician and his
fan to explore this like parasocial relationships that is like so prevalent in modern day.
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So it sounds to me like not shaped first by what the character is trying to
do, but by the concept that you as the writer are exploring. Does that sound right?
I think it's kind of both because I would say especially what I know about July
is super character driven.
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But I think I arrived at that character because since he's such he's such an
anxious person who really has a lot of like imposter syndrome.
Room so I think that naturally catered to the kind of relationship that I was looking at because,
it was so much more interesting to me to look
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at that concept of the parasocial relationship like you're saying if it's someone
who thinks I'm not even famous I'm not even good I'm not a rock star so yeah
I think definitely yeah character is very important to me I think it's both
things is coming together. Yeah.
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I noticed that both of your books were set in Berlin.
And I'm curious, was that just out of convenience for you?
Or were you really, like, is there something about the city that you really
want to capture as part of your story world?
I'll say the city is a lot more relevant for what I know about July than it is for retrograde.
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Because retrograde, a lot of it takes place inside the same apartment.
It's very claustrophobic. So it's not super city specific in that way.
But what I know about July, it's set in 2015.
So on the one hand, it's kind of this backdrop with the refugee crisis and what
was going on in Berlin at that time.
(10:01):
Time but especially Berlin being
a city where a lot of people are kind of you know
making ends meet and trying to pursue creative careers and there's just a lot
of different characters coming together also some seedy sides to it it's you
know it's less and less so nowadays but people have long talked about Berlin
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being like this city that's still becoming it's not finished yet,
So that was something that I thought kind of, in a way, was a parallel to my protagonist,
who's like, you know, he's like over 30, but he's trying to figure out how to
be an adult and get his life together and...
(10:43):
You know, become the person he wants to be and even know who that is.
So in that way, Berlin definitely, definitely was like more,
more than just a random setting. Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool.
And specifically with it being thriller, there has to be a lot of like,
well, you tell me actually, what do you feel like, what do you feel like are
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the defining things that you have to have in order
to make it a thriller yeah that trick question no
i think it has to have a
feeling of suspense although you
can have that in other genres as well you know i think there's often overlap
to crime fiction there's spoiler alert there's definitely a crime or two or
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several happening happening in the book but it's almost like you have to rule
out the other genres to say that it's just that.
I always think of thrillers as there's always a twist or several twists.
You know, you think that things are going one direction and then all of a sudden
something happens and things are going in a totally different direction.
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Do you use that in your books? And like how do you make that happen?
Because I feel like a lot of people want to write twists that sound that seem
like, wow, that came out of nowhere and it was so satisfying,
but then it just falls is really flat for the reader.
I do love twists. I read so much O. Henry growing up.
I mean, those are sometimes sort of like very, very obvious twists in a way.
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But that was a big part of editing and also a big part of discussions with people
who are giving me feedback like beta readers or my agent at the time just about
how obvious should upcoming twists be,
how obvious should the you know whatever the
solution to the mystery if you want to say that how obvious should
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it be and what i was striving for
was that the clues or signs of what is going to happen or what has happened
would not jump out at the reader at the time but only that then in retrospect
like oh of course that's why such and such hopefully hopefully i got it to that point you never know
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how people will read it so you said that that was a big part of
the editing process so I'm all interested in
editing because I am an editor so yes so talk
to me like what what is the editing process look like for you and then what
did it look like when you actually got your publisher and had to do that process
(13:20):
through through them as well yeah I will say I kind of,
because I did write this and do write a lot of things in kind of a,
you know, fly by the seat of my pants way.
Editing is so important to me. I spend a lot of time on editing. So I think that...
You know, the first stage of me editing a manuscript is just really the most
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basic level of revisions that are kind of even structural or,
you know, making sure that someone who's in a room is still in the room five
minutes later, didn't, you know, vanish into thin air.
It's a really, really basic level. And then over time,
once that's ironed out, making sure that characters are consistent and that
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the character traits that they have throughout or if they've developed to change
from that, that it makes sense.
And then you know much later
the level of kind of really the language
and the line edits all about all about
paring down wordiness i you know people are always like don't don't use any
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adverbs and don't you know this and that i'm not not that anal but i do try
to think like okay do i need all of these words can i can i consolidate this
yeah and that's so important to be able to do for yourself.
Like a lot of, and it's really hard for a lot of authors to do to kind of take
that step back and be like, do I really?
But it's a crucial skill to develop.
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So at what point do you go, all right, I've touched this as much as I can.
I want to have somebody else look at it and get their feedback.
I mean, I think there were with my last book, there were definitely several
points where I was like, no, this is good to go.
And then And then you do hear more from other people.
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But while I was still editing, I did have a couple of beta readers look at it,
just not necessarily professional,
but just people who are into reading and to say what their experience was of
reading it and whether anything kind of jumped out at them.
So that didn't result in any huge changes, but some minor changes.
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And then, so it was kind of a convoluted process with my old agent because first
she was at one agency and had requested the manuscript.
And then I, like, never heard from her. And then another agent there was like,
oh, she's not here anymore, but here are the changes that I would suggest. Oh, no.
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Yeah. So I, and I, at first I was like, whatever, like, why would I even, you know, but then I did.
And then his advice had been like, make it much more obvious,
make the clues really, like, way more obvious, more clues.
And then the original agent kind of popped up again at a different agency and was like,
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oh it's me again i want to i want to see your
manuscript and then seeing it after i had made the changes that the other one
suggested she was like no it's way too obvious now like unobvious it and then
later once i was actually working with her it was a lot a lot a lot of edits
It's definitely a very editorial process for,
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I don't want to say months.
Yeah, definitely. Lots of months.
And then definitely also from my publisher, more revisions, which is also a lot.
And I think in the first moment of seeing someone else's revisions,
there's just it's like I have to just like look at the most minor things first
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that are like a typo or something, because it's like it's just like hit a wall.
When I see like these like big, big scene revisions, I'm like,
whoa, so I just need some time to process it first.
And it's also like, sometimes it's the process of being like, no, this is how I want it.
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But you do have to like really, really look closely and be open to it and try
phrasing it different ways.
And so even even in the
case where i decide no i absolutely want to keep it this way it's still it's
still worthwhile to have had the feedback because then it's like i've you know
in each instance gone through and looked at like yeah is is this important enough
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for me to push back on it yeah am i sure so.
I would imagine, especially for literary fiction, like that the line editing
has got to be pretty intense because I have done some editing for people who
definitely lean more literary in tone.
And I love it because I love that kind of writing.
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It is so challenging and time consuming.
Can you talk a little bit just about like what that process was like for you,
like seeing those edits and working through all of that?
Sure. I think one thing that's challenging is,
and this is not at all to say that other people aren't putting thought into
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their sentence or something, but on the level of having put so much thought
into kind of style and phrasing,
then I can imagine at least that there's maybe more resistance from people who
are pursuing that kind of style.
I definitely think that there were moments when maybe I had wanted to use a
(19:00):
more unconventional phrasing and I, you know, was really into it.
And it is always like, okay, at what point is it, you know, my unique style?
And at what point is this going to be like unintelligible for a reader?
So that's a delicate balance.
I mean, it's, you know, you're writing the book to be read and understood and
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that people connect with it, but you also want it to be your voice and,
you know, in sync with this character you've created.
So there is definitely like a process of weighing all those factors and overcoming
your own internal resistance to certain changes.
Do you remember any specific maybe sentence or line that was like particularly
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hard for you to like accept that the change needed to happen?
Um well i think this is
actually not even a big thing but one thing that
i do remember was in terms of wording there
was a part where i said the character wanted to
make himself proof against hope like proof
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in the sense of like waterproof or fireproof
or you know that kind of proof but you know
first my agent was like like i don't
understand what this sentence is saying it's like it sounds like evidence
and I was like no it's this and and then
also the publisher said the same thing and I was like okay obviously no
one can understand this sentence and I liked it but it's
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it's gone I think what was then kind
of sometimes hard was I guess in
in dialogue you know I
do kind of know my characters so well
by that point then someone's like would they
really say this or like why would they think
this then I'm like of course they would
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say this of course that's their thought process but
obviously you know when people are
questioning it you really have to ask yourself am I getting it across is it
logical for the for the reader so that's you know that's hard yeah especially
I love that you you mentioned at the very beginning about interiority and do
you want to talk a little bit more about what that is and maybe how you try
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to express that in your writing?
You know, I think it's just really all about seeing the world through the character's eyes.
And it's not just seeing things from the perspective, but it's their way of thinking about stuff.
And for example, the way that they assume that other people see them.
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For example, I mentioned how Simon and what I know about July is anxious and insecure.
I saw a lot of social anxiety and imposter syndrome so there's just so many moments where.
He's thinking, oh, I look so stupid. That person's looking at me weird.
I must seem like such and such.
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Oh, I shouldn't do this because this person will think poorly of me or how will
it look if I do this? Or, you know, there's a scene where his sister is very,
very active in doing, you know, charitable projects.
And he's trying to, he's trying to, you know, help raise awareness for her.
And he's like, oh, everyone can tell that I'm faking this.
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And I have no idea what I'm talking about. out and you
know we as the reader kind of might know at a
distance that's not what i would think if i saw someone at
a concert talk about a charity i would never have that thought but you know
then it's it's about the experience of being in his head and that's that's how
he sees the situation or you know just little things like to see also has has
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anxiety about you know hygiene type things.
You know being offered a
glass of water at the police station and
thinking like who used this cup last or you know
just things where someone else might
think is that really relevant right now but you know just making that consistent
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throughout the book just just like an experience where it's even if you're a
totally different character a person it's as it's called in reality A totally different person.
We're all playing characters. We're all people playing characters. Exactly.
So that you would just, you know, every experience, every scene,
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it's from that person's perspective, what they're experiencing. Yeah.
The sensory experience, the thought process, just all of it.
I love interiority when it's done well so much because it really is like you
really are getting into the mind of another character and seeing the world through their eyes.
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And to me, that is like such a way to build empathy with somebody because it's
like, oh, of course, if you're if that's the first thought that's coming to
your mind in this situation, that's the way that you're going to respond, you know, like.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I love that. And I think it's what's really important is
like you're talking about how your character, Simon, has all of this insecurity.
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And that is going to be expressed in the way that he thinks and also in the
way that he describes things in the world.
And it's going to be completely different than if he was a narcissist.
Yeah. When you have a character, how do you go about developing their inner
voice and making sure it's or at least trying to make it different from your voice as the writer?
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It's I mean, it's definitely kind of a multi-stage process.
Like, I think at first thinking about just the very biggest character traits
are the ones that are going to play the biggest role,
like, you know, about about being being anxious is something that was kind of
a starting point and being insecure because I did want to have that contrast
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to kind of how the how the fan worships him and how he feels about himself.
But then over time, just making that more complex and discovering the other
facets of the character.
For example, Simon also kind of has this striving to be good and thinking a
lot about how can I be a good person and not just how can I appear favorably to others, but good.
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How can I, within myself, be better than I am now?
And there's this contrast because, you know, he's had this totally messy life.
He's been at rehab. He's been a womanizer, just picking up all his fans and stuff.
He's just done all this stuff that he then himself kind of doesn't approve of
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or doesn't want to be connected with.
So, you know, in writing an early draft, it's definitely about discovering all
those different facets.
Opposites and seeing how they interact with each
other and come together to form like a cohesive whole
person but then again here we
are back at editing it's it's about going through again
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and making sure it's consistent and not just with the protagonist whose perspective
we see but with all the characters for example dialogue being consistent but
they always talk in their own unique voice and they don't all sound the same
as each other and also they do sound the same as themselves and to themselves.
So yeah, a lot of passes with editing over that.
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What is something that you wish more people knew about literary fiction and
literary thrillers and the genre that you're writing in?
People who maybe don't read that genre, what are they missing out on?
I'll say I think that many people who don't read literary fiction might have
the idea that but it has to be super dense or difficult to read or dry or something.
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And there absolutely are literary friction books like that.
I don't really like to read books like that. I mean, I read pretty much all literary friction,
but I read things that are not easy to read in the sense of we're a second grader,
but that flow and are often page turners or you're invested in quickly.
(27:17):
So yeah i think you know people should know it it doesn't it's not smarter or
more literary if it's hard to read or dull so it doesn't have to be like that
yes absolutely thank you so much for saying that that's that's yeah how did you say yes.
All right. Well, I did want to get a chance, first of all, for you to tell people
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where they can find you and find your books.
And then I'd love to talk to you about maybe some book recommendations.
Sure. Yeah, I am on, I guess, all the social media that are age appropriate
to me. What does that mean? Instagram.
I mean, I don't know how to use Snapchat.
(28:02):
I'm too old to use that. I don't know if that's relevant to books even.
And yeah, I'll just say Instagram, I'm on it.
And I have a website, which is kathosler.com, just like my name, easy to remember.
And yeah, my books are pretty much, if you're in Berlin, which maybe not many
people listening to are, but Yvalon's has copies.
(28:24):
Otherwise, anywhere you usually order books, your bookstore can order it,
bookshop.org, anywhere that you want to order it, it's there.
And what are the two titles?
Oh, yeah. Retrogade is my first novel. And What I Know About July is my new novel.
And also you can order it straight from Meerkat Press. Also,
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they have a shop and sometimes there are goodies, sometimes there aren't. You'll see.
And then book recommendations. Let's see all the books.
Every book. Yes. No, I know I love Daphne du Maurier, as you can imagine.
I think kind of just a very early, important literary thriller person.
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I know, you know, I feel like everybody I talk to has always read Rebecca.
I love My Cousin Rachel. That was, that's fun. Oh, actually,
I think I've read that too. Yeah, it's, it's dark.
Yeah, yeah. And also, I feel like a lot of people don't know that she wrote
The Birds, which is just a short story, but that's creepy. It's creepier than the movie for sure.
(29:29):
Well, I did not know that. Yeah, so modern stuff of literary thrillers.
One i really like because i'm a shakespeare nerd is if
we were villains so much shakespeare nerdery
and that it's like a kind of theater theater school type
setting dark academia and oh so this is not a mystery but it's like all things
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bright and beautiful a lot of creepy random kind of exorcism type things going
on but also about i kind of i kind of really like books where
the scariness is like the social interaction that is happening.
Oh, Severance is one that is, you know, a literary zombie novel I've read,
(30:12):
but definitely, definitely worth reading.
Hopefully not the last. Hopefully we will get more literary zombie novels.
I'm sure there are more out there even now. I just have to discover them.
Music.
(30:40):
And that's the show. If you'd like to find out what I know about July,
check out kathausler.com.
And if you're in need of a little literary assistance, check out my editing
services on midwright.com or reach out to me on Instagram at midwrightworlds.
If you enjoy the show, please leave me a rating and review on your preferred podcasting service.
(31:04):
And of course, if you have any ideas for topics or guests, feel free to send
them my way at eddabuddiespod at gmail.com.
Music.
I kind of really like books where the scariness is like the social interaction that is happening.
Music.
Hi, Edibuddies. Welcome back to the Edibuddies podcast.
(00:22):
I'm your host, Kara. I am a developmental and copy editor, and on my show we
talk about writing, editing, and the friends you can make along the way.
Today we're visiting the world of literary thrillers with up-and-coming author Kat Hausler.
There are some people for whom the word literary brings up images of upturned
(00:43):
noses and dense, incomprehensible prose, but Kat doesn't believe this has to be the case.
In her novels, concept and characters work together to create compelling narratives
full of twists and suspense.
Literary fiction is about telling a story while also exploring something deeper
(01:04):
about the human condition, and it's not afraid to get experimental with its
structure or use of language.
If you're someone for whom literary fiction seems intimidating,
I hope after this interview you'll be inspired to try it out.
I'm originally from Virginia, and I studied in New York and then ended up in
(01:28):
Berlin, where I live now, because I originally wanted to major in creative writing.
And then the college of NYU that I was at was like, that's not a major here.
So I majored in German studies and did semester abroad here.
And yeah, I was like, this is, nope, it's not New York. It's this city.
(01:52):
It clicked for you. It felt like the spot for you.
Yeah. I mean, I'll say actually the first couple of days I was in Berlin,
which was pretty different back then. It's just like 2007.
I was like, is this even a city? Because there's no businesses near,
you know, this apartment.
(02:13):
Because I was so used to the consolidation of New York and like every single
apartment building is going to have the shops downstairs.
But no, I mean, within a short amount of time, then I discovered more stuff
and was no longer like, but where do I buy toilet paper?
Right. I had to get over that culture shock for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
(02:34):
What were some of the first or like, what are some of the early stories that
you remember really making you go, not just I like reading this,
but I want to write something like this?
I want to say maybe Lois Duncan's books. I read a lot of those as kind of a preteen.
I guess her most famous is I Know What You Did Last Summer, which is so different in the movie.
(02:55):
But definitely reading those was something where I felt like,
yeah, it would be fun to also write books like this.
And I mean, not that I only write thrillers or something, but I definitely I
must say I read like 20 of her books at that age.
What do you feel like it was about those books specifically?
(03:16):
I think that there was just a lot of interiority with the characters and feeling
like you really were experiencing stuff with them.
And I mean, that's something that's still really important to me now.
Like I tend to write everything either. I mean, mostly close third,
sometimes first person, but like really just want to be in the character's head.
(03:38):
Can you talk a little bit about what makes something like literary
versus just a regular thriller yeah i
mean literary in terms of it's not
just about the plot it's not just about what happens next
and is it kind of a thrilling plot line but
it's about how the language is and you know how how things are phrased and i
(04:02):
most enjoy reading reading a thriller myself or any kind of book if the words
just really flow and i sometimes think like oh that's a beautiful sentence or
that that's insightful.
That's something I have felt before, but not been able to put into words myself.
So I try to recreate that experience.
Yeah. So you've written two books so far, two full-length novels and several short stories.
(04:27):
Just in general, what does your writing process look like?
Where do you get your inspiration? And then how do you develop inspiration?
I am always being like, I wish my writing process were different from what it
is. I don't know a writer who doesn't think that.
I just always have this vision that like other writers are much more organized somehow.
But I often just start with just the smallest idea or even kind of maybe a feeling
(04:55):
that I want to look into more.
Like my first novel, Retrograde, is about basically this estranged couple.
We are the wife then has retrograde amnesia and her estranged husband is like,
I don't know how to tell her. Or am I just going to pretend this never happened and we're together?
But I didn't initially think about this as like an amnesia plot line, but about,
(05:20):
the period in a relationship where things are just all going wrong and people
start to have this thought like, what if we could go back to when it was different
and when it was good and couldn't we start over?
But they can't start over because
the past is there and everything they've experienced and all the fights.
(05:40):
So I was thinking about that in the case of my new novel, What I Know About
July, which is about this anxious musician who's creepy number one fan who's
basically stalking him, disappears.
And so my thought there was I'm just so interested in the kind of celebrity fan relationship.
(06:04):
So I almost was just going to write a short story about that originally,
and then I got really interested.
So yeah, I guess my writing process This is just, I'm just always noting down,
like, what if this, what if that, some weird idea I want to look into more.
And, you know, and then eventually kind of the scenes that I can actively picture
(06:27):
and then kind of just later on trying to link it up and flesh it out.
So you write non-linearly? You kind of like just write as what you see and then
you piecemeal it together, you quilt it together? other?
I would say I wrote retrograde pretty linearly.
(06:47):
Why did you say this word? I'm so sorry.
Okay. Because that was one where I was very focused on kind of leaving the ending
open as long as possible.
So I was just doing like kind of scene for a scene and trying to develop the
two perspectives that way.
(07:08):
What I know about July, I wrote some of the main scenes that I could really
picture first and then kind of had like sort of like placeholder notes,
like, you know, this is what needs to happen in between.
And then I eventually went through and was kind of filling it all out.
And that one, I would say, wrote the ending pretty early on.
(07:30):
So that one was all over the place for sure. Yes.
That's really interesting, though, that you kind of took a very different approach
with these two, with your two different novels.
And what I heard you say about both of them is that you started more with the concept,
with the idea that you were trying to play with in an abstract sense,
(07:53):
this idea of can we go back to the way things were and using this story and
this vehicle of amnesia to explore that concept.
And then with this new novel, you are using the story of this musician and his
fan to explore this like parasocial relationships that is like so prevalent in modern day.
(08:14):
So it sounds to me like not shaped first by what the character is trying to
do, but by the concept that you as the writer are exploring. Does that sound right?
I think it's kind of both because I would say especially what I know about July
is super character driven.
(08:35):
But I think I arrived at that character because since he's such he's such an
anxious person who really has a lot of like imposter syndrome.
Room so I think that naturally catered to the kind of relationship that I was looking at because,
it was so much more interesting to me to look
(08:57):
at that concept of the parasocial relationship like you're saying if it's someone
who thinks I'm not even famous I'm not even good I'm not a rock star so yeah
I think definitely yeah character is very important to me I think it's both
things is coming together. Yeah.
(09:18):
I noticed that both of your books were set in Berlin.
And I'm curious, was that just out of convenience for you?
Or were you really, like, is there something about the city that you really
want to capture as part of your story world?
I'll say the city is a lot more relevant for what I know about July than it is for retrograde.
(09:40):
Because retrograde, a lot of it takes place inside the same apartment.
It's very claustrophobic. So it's not super city specific in that way.
But what I know about July, it's set in 2015.
So on the one hand, it's kind of this backdrop with the refugee crisis and what
was going on in Berlin at that time.
(10:01):
Time but especially Berlin being
a city where a lot of people are kind of you know
making ends meet and trying to pursue creative careers and there's just a lot
of different characters coming together also some seedy sides to it it's you
know it's less and less so nowadays but people have long talked about Berlin
(10:23):
being like this city that's still becoming it's not finished yet,
So that was something that I thought kind of, in a way, was a parallel to my protagonist,
who's like, you know, he's like over 30, but he's trying to figure out how to
be an adult and get his life together and...
(10:43):
You know, become the person he wants to be and even know who that is.
So in that way, Berlin definitely, definitely was like more,
more than just a random setting. Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool.
And specifically with it being thriller, there has to be a lot of like,
well, you tell me actually, what do you feel like, what do you feel like are
(11:08):
the defining things that you have to have in order
to make it a thriller yeah that trick question no
i think it has to have a
feeling of suspense although you
can have that in other genres as well you know i think there's often overlap
to crime fiction there's spoiler alert there's definitely a crime or two or
(11:31):
several happening happening in the book but it's almost like you have to rule
out the other genres to say that it's just that.
I always think of thrillers as there's always a twist or several twists.
You know, you think that things are going one direction and then all of a sudden
something happens and things are going in a totally different direction.
(11:52):
Do you use that in your books? And like how do you make that happen?
Because I feel like a lot of people want to write twists that sound that seem
like, wow, that came out of nowhere and it was so satisfying,
but then it just falls is really flat for the reader.
I do love twists. I read so much O. Henry growing up.
I mean, those are sometimes sort of like very, very obvious twists in a way.
(12:15):
But that was a big part of editing and also a big part of discussions with people
who are giving me feedback like beta readers or my agent at the time just about
how obvious should upcoming twists be,
how obvious should the you know whatever the
solution to the mystery if you want to say that how obvious should
(12:37):
it be and what i was striving for
was that the clues or signs of what is going to happen or what has happened
would not jump out at the reader at the time but only that then in retrospect
like oh of course that's why such and such hopefully hopefully i got it to that point you never know
(12:58):
how people will read it so you said that that was a big part of
the editing process so I'm all interested in
editing because I am an editor so yes so talk
to me like what what is the editing process look like for you and then what
did it look like when you actually got your publisher and had to do that process
(13:20):
through through them as well yeah I will say I kind of,
because I did write this and do write a lot of things in kind of a,
you know, fly by the seat of my pants way.
Editing is so important to me. I spend a lot of time on editing. So I think that...
You know, the first stage of me editing a manuscript is just really the most
(13:45):
basic level of revisions that are kind of even structural or,
you know, making sure that someone who's in a room is still in the room five
minutes later, didn't, you know, vanish into thin air.
It's a really, really basic level. And then over time,
once that's ironed out, making sure that characters are consistent and that
(14:09):
the character traits that they have throughout or if they've developed to change
from that, that it makes sense.
And then you know much later
the level of kind of really the language
and the line edits all about all about
paring down wordiness i you know people are always like don't don't use any
(14:33):
adverbs and don't you know this and that i'm not not that anal but i do try
to think like okay do i need all of these words can i can i consolidate this
yeah and that's so important to be able to do for yourself.
Like a lot of, and it's really hard for a lot of authors to do to kind of take
that step back and be like, do I really?
But it's a crucial skill to develop.
(14:56):
So at what point do you go, all right, I've touched this as much as I can.
I want to have somebody else look at it and get their feedback.
I mean, I think there were with my last book, there were definitely several
points where I was like, no, this is good to go.
And then And then you do hear more from other people.
(15:16):
But while I was still editing, I did have a couple of beta readers look at it,
just not necessarily professional,
but just people who are into reading and to say what their experience was of
reading it and whether anything kind of jumped out at them.
So that didn't result in any huge changes, but some minor changes.
(15:39):
And then, so it was kind of a convoluted process with my old agent because first
she was at one agency and had requested the manuscript.
And then I, like, never heard from her. And then another agent there was like,
oh, she's not here anymore, but here are the changes that I would suggest. Oh, no.
(16:05):
Yeah. So I, and I, at first I was like, whatever, like, why would I even, you know, but then I did.
And then his advice had been like, make it much more obvious,
make the clues really, like, way more obvious, more clues.
And then the original agent kind of popped up again at a different agency and was like,
(16:25):
oh it's me again i want to i want to see your
manuscript and then seeing it after i had made the changes that the other one
suggested she was like no it's way too obvious now like unobvious it and then
later once i was actually working with her it was a lot a lot a lot of edits
It's definitely a very editorial process for,
(16:46):
I don't want to say months.
Yeah, definitely. Lots of months.
And then definitely also from my publisher, more revisions, which is also a lot.
And I think in the first moment of seeing someone else's revisions,
there's just it's like I have to just like look at the most minor things first
(17:07):
that are like a typo or something, because it's like it's just like hit a wall.
When I see like these like big, big scene revisions, I'm like,
whoa, so I just need some time to process it first.
And it's also like, sometimes it's the process of being like, no, this is how I want it.
(17:28):
But you do have to like really, really look closely and be open to it and try
phrasing it different ways.
And so even even in the
case where i decide no i absolutely want to keep it this way it's still it's
still worthwhile to have had the feedback because then it's like i've you know
in each instance gone through and looked at like yeah is is this important enough
(17:52):
for me to push back on it yeah am i sure so.
I would imagine, especially for literary fiction, like that the line editing
has got to be pretty intense because I have done some editing for people who
definitely lean more literary in tone.
And I love it because I love that kind of writing.
(18:14):
It is so challenging and time consuming.
Can you talk a little bit just about like what that process was like for you,
like seeing those edits and working through all of that?
Sure. I think one thing that's challenging is,
and this is not at all to say that other people aren't putting thought into
(18:35):
their sentence or something, but on the level of having put so much thought
into kind of style and phrasing,
then I can imagine at least that there's maybe more resistance from people who
are pursuing that kind of style.
I definitely think that there were moments when maybe I had wanted to use a
(19:00):
more unconventional phrasing and I, you know, was really into it.
And it is always like, okay, at what point is it, you know, my unique style?
And at what point is this going to be like unintelligible for a reader?
So that's a delicate balance.
I mean, it's, you know, you're writing the book to be read and understood and
(19:23):
that people connect with it, but you also want it to be your voice and,
you know, in sync with this character you've created.
So there is definitely like a process of weighing all those factors and overcoming
your own internal resistance to certain changes.
Do you remember any specific maybe sentence or line that was like particularly
(19:46):
hard for you to like accept that the change needed to happen?
Um well i think this is
actually not even a big thing but one thing that
i do remember was in terms of wording there
was a part where i said the character wanted to
make himself proof against hope like proof
(20:06):
in the sense of like waterproof or fireproof
or you know that kind of proof but you know
first my agent was like like i don't
understand what this sentence is saying it's like it sounds like evidence
and I was like no it's this and and then
also the publisher said the same thing and I was like okay obviously no
one can understand this sentence and I liked it but it's
(20:28):
it's gone I think what was then kind
of sometimes hard was I guess in
in dialogue you know I
do kind of know my characters so well
by that point then someone's like would they
really say this or like why would they think
this then I'm like of course they would
(20:50):
say this of course that's their thought process but
obviously you know when people are
questioning it you really have to ask yourself am I getting it across is it
logical for the for the reader so that's you know that's hard yeah especially
I love that you you mentioned at the very beginning about interiority and do
you want to talk a little bit more about what that is and maybe how you try
(21:13):
to express that in your writing?
You know, I think it's just really all about seeing the world through the character's eyes.
And it's not just seeing things from the perspective, but it's their way of thinking about stuff.
And for example, the way that they assume that other people see them.
(21:34):
For example, I mentioned how Simon and what I know about July is anxious and insecure.
I saw a lot of social anxiety and imposter syndrome so there's just so many moments where.
He's thinking, oh, I look so stupid. That person's looking at me weird.
I must seem like such and such.
(21:55):
Oh, I shouldn't do this because this person will think poorly of me or how will
it look if I do this? Or, you know, there's a scene where his sister is very,
very active in doing, you know, charitable projects.
And he's trying to, he's trying to, you know, help raise awareness for her.
And he's like, oh, everyone can tell that I'm faking this.
(22:18):
And I have no idea what I'm talking about. out and you
know we as the reader kind of might know at a
distance that's not what i would think if i saw someone at
a concert talk about a charity i would never have that thought but you know
then it's it's about the experience of being in his head and that's that's how
he sees the situation or you know just little things like to see also has has
(22:44):
anxiety about you know hygiene type things.
You know being offered a
glass of water at the police station and
thinking like who used this cup last or you know
just things where someone else might
think is that really relevant right now but you know just making that consistent
(23:05):
throughout the book just just like an experience where it's even if you're a
totally different character a person it's as it's called in reality A totally different person.
We're all playing characters. We're all people playing characters. Exactly.
So that you would just, you know, every experience, every scene,
(23:30):
it's from that person's perspective, what they're experiencing. Yeah.
The sensory experience, the thought process, just all of it.
I love interiority when it's done well so much because it really is like you
really are getting into the mind of another character and seeing the world through their eyes.
(23:51):
And to me, that is like such a way to build empathy with somebody because it's
like, oh, of course, if you're if that's the first thought that's coming to
your mind in this situation, that's the way that you're going to respond, you know, like.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I love that. And I think it's what's really important is
like you're talking about how your character, Simon, has all of this insecurity.
(24:13):
And that is going to be expressed in the way that he thinks and also in the
way that he describes things in the world.
And it's going to be completely different than if he was a narcissist.
Yeah. When you have a character, how do you go about developing their inner
voice and making sure it's or at least trying to make it different from your voice as the writer?
(24:35):
It's I mean, it's definitely kind of a multi-stage process.
Like, I think at first thinking about just the very biggest character traits
are the ones that are going to play the biggest role,
like, you know, about about being being anxious is something that was kind of
a starting point and being insecure because I did want to have that contrast
(24:57):
to kind of how the how the fan worships him and how he feels about himself.
But then over time, just making that more complex and discovering the other
facets of the character.
For example, Simon also kind of has this striving to be good and thinking a
lot about how can I be a good person and not just how can I appear favorably to others, but good.
(25:23):
How can I, within myself, be better than I am now?
And there's this contrast because, you know, he's had this totally messy life.
He's been at rehab. He's been a womanizer, just picking up all his fans and stuff.
He's just done all this stuff that he then himself kind of doesn't approve of
(25:44):
or doesn't want to be connected with.
So, you know, in writing an early draft, it's definitely about discovering all
those different facets.
Opposites and seeing how they interact with each
other and come together to form like a cohesive whole
person but then again here we
are back at editing it's it's about going through again
(26:05):
and making sure it's consistent and not just with the protagonist whose perspective
we see but with all the characters for example dialogue being consistent but
they always talk in their own unique voice and they don't all sound the same
as each other and also they do sound the same as themselves and to themselves.
So yeah, a lot of passes with editing over that.
(26:29):
What is something that you wish more people knew about literary fiction and
literary thrillers and the genre that you're writing in?
People who maybe don't read that genre, what are they missing out on?
I'll say I think that many people who don't read literary fiction might have
the idea that but it has to be super dense or difficult to read or dry or something.
(26:55):
And there absolutely are literary friction books like that.
I don't really like to read books like that. I mean, I read pretty much all literary friction,
but I read things that are not easy to read in the sense of we're a second grader,
but that flow and are often page turners or you're invested in quickly.
(27:17):
So yeah i think you know people should know it it doesn't it's not smarter or
more literary if it's hard to read or dull so it doesn't have to be like that
yes absolutely thank you so much for saying that that's that's yeah how did you say yes.
All right. Well, I did want to get a chance, first of all, for you to tell people
(27:41):
where they can find you and find your books.
And then I'd love to talk to you about maybe some book recommendations.
Sure. Yeah, I am on, I guess, all the social media that are age appropriate
to me. What does that mean? Instagram.
I mean, I don't know how to use Snapchat.
(28:02):
I'm too old to use that. I don't know if that's relevant to books even.
And yeah, I'll just say Instagram, I'm on it.
And I have a website, which is kathosler.com, just like my name, easy to remember.
And yeah, my books are pretty much, if you're in Berlin, which maybe not many
people listening to are, but Yvalon's has copies.
(28:24):
Otherwise, anywhere you usually order books, your bookstore can order it,
bookshop.org, anywhere that you want to order it, it's there.
And what are the two titles?
Oh, yeah. Retrogade is my first novel. And What I Know About July is my new novel.
And also you can order it straight from Meerkat Press. Also,
(28:46):
they have a shop and sometimes there are goodies, sometimes there aren't. You'll see.
And then book recommendations. Let's see all the books.
Every book. Yes. No, I know I love Daphne du Maurier, as you can imagine.
I think kind of just a very early, important literary thriller person.
(29:07):
I know, you know, I feel like everybody I talk to has always read Rebecca.
I love My Cousin Rachel. That was, that's fun. Oh, actually,
I think I've read that too. Yeah, it's, it's dark.
Yeah, yeah. And also, I feel like a lot of people don't know that she wrote
The Birds, which is just a short story, but that's creepy. It's creepier than the movie for sure.
(29:29):
Well, I did not know that. Yeah, so modern stuff of literary thrillers.
One i really like because i'm a shakespeare nerd is if
we were villains so much shakespeare nerdery
and that it's like a kind of theater theater school type
setting dark academia and oh so this is not a mystery but it's like all things
(29:50):
bright and beautiful a lot of creepy random kind of exorcism type things going
on but also about i kind of i kind of really like books where
the scariness is like the social interaction that is happening.
Oh, Severance is one that is, you know, a literary zombie novel I've read,
(30:12):
but definitely, definitely worth reading.
Hopefully not the last. Hopefully we will get more literary zombie novels.
I'm sure there are more out there even now. I just have to discover them.
Music.
(30:40):
And that's the show. If you'd like to find out what I know about July,
check out kathausler.com.
And if you're in need of a little literary assistance, check out my editing
services on midwright.com or reach out to me on Instagram at midwrightworlds.
If you enjoy the show, please leave me a rating and review on your preferred podcasting service.
(31:04):
And of course, if you have any ideas for topics or guests, feel free to send
them my way at eddabuddiespod at gmail.com.
Music.
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