April 2, 2025 • 87 mins
In this episode of the Emancipated Citizen Podcast, hosts Zac Alrayyis and Benjamin Snow have a conversation with Anas about his journey, a Syrian refugee. They explore the challenges faced by refugees, particularly ex-Muslims and LGBTQ individuals, in conservative societies like Egypt. The conversation delves into the importance of activism, social media connections, and the struggles of identity amidst societal pressures. This conversation delves into the complexities of refugee sponsorship, the challenges faced by individuals in oppressive environments, and the nuances of migration policies. The speakers share personal experiences and insights into the refugee process, highlighting the importance of safe passage and the impact of political decisions on vulnerable populations. They emphasize the need for compassion and proactive efforts to support refugees, while also addressing the systemic issues that contribute to human trafficking and irregular migration.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Hello, hello and welcome everyone to the Emancipated Citizen Podcast where we present toyou the stories of some of the bravest men and women out there, standing up for their
freedom and their individuality against...
And telling us about their struggles.
I am your host Zach Alvarez with me is Benjamin Snow and
(00:37):
Yeah, for the first time, our guest is physically with me while we're interviewing.
Hey Anna!
Hey
into it.
Today I am going to be, I guess, interviewing Ben a little bit and also trying to presentsome of what Benjamin has been up to over the past years, because it is something that is
(01:02):
truly extraordinary and I don't think we've quite talked about this on the podcast, but ithas always been something that is going on in the background.
So just for a overview, Ben kind of started his activism and his involvement throughgetting to know people through social media specifically, specifically Anas, who is a
(01:31):
refugee from Syria.
And for a long time, he has been providing not just like moral.
you know personal support but also also like on a on a financial and legal level has beenvery involved in in helping I'm just saying the truth and I I mean I think it's very
(02:00):
important that that our audience is aware of this so that so that we can we can also kindof kind of present the
I can say the pitch that we're trying to present in this episode and probably in the nextepisode as well, which has to do with actually raising material resources to help those
(02:24):
who need to either be relocated or need help to get to safety.
Yeah, so like I was saying, Benjamin has been very active talking to and supportingrefugees across the world.
(02:45):
There are people within, like who have been on the podcast, who have been immensely helpedby Benjamin's goodwill and also through the atheist support network, which we are both
involved in and part of how we connected.
So just talking about the pitch that I mentioned before earlier, we are launching aPatreon and a PayPal for a start and hopefully we are going to have more possibilities to
(03:22):
collect support which hopefully can be used to help free thinkers who need to come tosafety.
That being said, the beginning, which we will touch upon later as well.
That being said, I going to let Benjamin speak on the beginnings of his engagement withrefugees through social media, and we will move on from there.
(03:52):
Yeah, it started in 27 when Anis and I met on Facebook shortly after I got back to the USfrom my Diamond Peace Corps.
So 2007, Amy.
No, 2017.
Right after I got back from Peace Corps and talked for a while, I don't really feel likegoing back to our to our first conversations.
(04:18):
But right now we don't have the time.
But Anas had just gotten to Egypt after fleeing Syria.
Do you want to tell us anything about that trip?
Yeah, it was quite the journey.
I actually went from Syria to Sudan and from Sudan to Egypt through the desert.
(04:40):
It was like a 24 hours journey through the desert with no stops.
So yeah, it was quite the journey.
I made it to Egypt in late 2017 and that's when me and Benjamin met.
Yeah, it's something that we've actually talked about, I think, on our 10th episode withStephen Watt from Northern Lights Canada talking about Welcome Core and I don't know if
(05:14):
it's called Welcome
Actually about Canada's private sponsorship.
WelcomeCore was based on it and did not exist at the time.
Yeah, so that was some years ago.
We talked to Stephen Watt about private sponsorship in Canada, talking about the processof people meeting refugees on social media, primarily raising money, making sure that they
(05:42):
have a support network within Canada.
When they come, they're able to integrate in a manner that is...
Yeah, astonishingly effective, much better than quite honestly a lot of other systemsaround the world.
You can go back to our 10th episode if you would like to listen to that conversation.
(06:07):
Like Ben said, at that time, now that Trump is president, unfortunately, welcome court inthe United States did not exist in that way.
But welcome core, the private sponsorship program was launched for a brief period of timeduring the Biden administration, as far as I understand, before it was discontinued.
(06:34):
just, yeah, going back to the point of just human connection and meeting people on socialmedia, do you remember how you guys met and how this connection started?
It was through Facebook.
Yeah, as I recall on this was, just made a post in a group.
(06:54):
We were both in asking if there was anybody in Cairo.
he'd like to meet who, you know, ex-Muslims.
and I just contacted him and we stayed in touch since then.
Did you even meet anyone with that?
No, no, no, it was a very generic type of engagement.
(07:16):
I mean, to be honest, I did not expect a lifelong relationship to come of that post, butthat's what happened.
Yeah, mean, I guess some of the wildest coincidences are what lead to some of the mostsignificant developments in our lives, right?
And I eventually just started putting money aside to sponsor him eventually when I firststarted it was before anyone even thought of welcome core Or at least before you thought
(07:45):
about welcome core and spoke about it in a way that I would hear about I just put aside incase We might be able to find someone in Canada to sponsor on us could maybe be one of my
family members there if I could convince them to think that's in the cards, but
But just some of my tips from delivering and the money I got for being in the COVIDvaccine trial, which in addition to being about a thousand dollars for the sponsorship
(08:16):
also meant that I got the vaccine before my rather high risk parents, which also left mydad going.
So why is it the healthiest person in family is getting it first and then going,
Right when I reminded him that I told him how he could have signed up for the trial too.
Yeah.
(08:36):
Yeah, so yeah, basically you went through medical experiments to support somebody on theother side of the globe.
don't be fooled.
A big part of my motivation is to get the vaccine as soon as possible.
I guess, yeah, whatever.
In any case, mean, you guys probably met through a common interest, common identity.
(09:06):
You're both atheists, you're both non-religious, and you're both presumably very...
It's important to you guys to...
And ex-Muslim issues are important to you guys as well.
You know, the kind of persecution that former Muslims face in Egypt and Syria and otherparts of the Middle East.
(09:35):
Yeah, Benjamin probably having some experiences with the Christian nationalists orfundamentalist movements in the United States, having also a sort of personal...
connection to that topic, right?
Yeah, I mean, far as as far as that affects me, there's politicians who sometimes a fewpoliticians who say crazy stuff, mass movements with agendas that I find extremely
(10:09):
repulsive.
But as far as personal danger, I think Christians think atheists are more danger in the USthan we do.
And I've been in arguments about it with keyboard jihadis, too.
I was in three separate atheist groups in the south.
had a city council refuse to let us put up a booth once because they thought we might getattacked, but never once did I feel like I was in personal danger there.
(10:35):
And here we are.
Yeah, I mean, as I was about to finish my sentence, which is obviously not, you know,nearly to the same level of danger that people face in the Middle East.
I mean, you have the First Amendment, you have the right to free expression and, you know,free confession.
(10:57):
You're able to believe and express whatever you want in the United States, even though alot of people might not like it, right?
But...
On the other hand, mean, in Syria and in Egypt, it's completely different.
And that definitely plays into the reason why Anas had to leave Egypt as well, even thoughit was relatively safer than Syria.
(11:28):
Anas, would you like to talk a little bit about
your life in Syria, talk a little bit about the kinds of social pressures that people ofno faith face in Syria back then as well as now, and yeah, how your identity ties into all
(11:59):
of this and how you didn't feel
safe in your identity in your own country and to the point where that led you to fleeSyria and go to Egypt.
it's going to be perfectly understandable that, I mean, it should be perfectlyunderstandable that we might get a story here that doesn't have all of the details, right?
(12:32):
There actually might be...
periods of time that get no mention, yeah, for safety reasons and so on.
But do tell us what you can tell us about your journey from Syria and to Egypt, and thenwe can move on to your life in Egypt from there.
(12:56):
Sure, sure thing.
mean, growing up in a conservative environment or a conservative country, as someone whois questioning religion and the Middle Eastern social construct as a general, I believe, I
(13:19):
mean, it was so foreign that I...
honestly did not know words to describe, you know, the type of mental process that I wasdoing.
Like criticizing religion is something that is so prohibited that you can't put it intowords back then to me.
(13:47):
So yeah, I mean, it was really difficult to question religion or critique religion or
start to rethink one's beliefs when every single person in your life that you either talkto or even see believes that ideology or that religion and add to that the conflict that
(14:15):
took place in Syria I mean it only increased
the complexity of all of that and brought up lot of extremism to the surface.
And to be honest, like if I would summarize my experience or my state at that time, itwould be lost.
(14:44):
I was lost.
I was lost between what's happening on the ground, the immediate
danger, the physical danger that I am put through every single day and also theintellectual danger, the emotional danger that is surrounding me by people who believe
(15:08):
that people like me should be killed or people having other different perspectives ordifferent opinions about religion should be killed.
So yeah, I was pretty lost.
I was feeling alone.
(15:28):
As I said, I didn't even have the vocabulary to describe the mental process I was in.
Like, I didn't know what an atheist is.
I didn't know what it means to leave religion.
I didn't...
(15:49):
know that someone can leave religion in a practical sense.
yeah.
But there is one thing that I was sure of is that I do not belong to this place.
I do not, I did not belong and still don't belong to that area of the earth.
(16:13):
So I knew that I had to
leave I knew I had to get out some way and I started working on that from I would say like10-12 years ago.
Yeah, I mean, the ex-Muslim identity is something that I've talked about extensively inone of our more recent episodes, as specifically with Mohammed Nopal, is something that I
(16:47):
have increasingly come to understand as something that is not chosen or adopted, butrather imposed by an intolerant society.
What I mean by this is that Islam as a cultural identity is something that is exclusivelyenforced in such a way that is very totalitarian in a way that...
(17:17):
If you question any of the tenets of the faith, if you...
if you let go of certain practices, in some extreme cases, even if you're just avegetarian, for example, religious extremists are going to pronounce you as an apostate
(17:40):
because you have certain points of disagreement or points where you jump from in making,for example,
moral assessments.
And I mean this can go to a lot of different things, You can be pronounced to an apostateif you have same-sex relationships, for example.
(18:17):
Thank
You got pronounced in a past state for being a vegan?
Yes, yes, I mean...
Good lord!
I mean you can't
were individuals who have directly said that.
I mean, listening to music is prohibited, Like, doing anything, like wearing tight jeansis prohibited, you know?
(18:42):
Having certain haircuts as a man is prohibited, piercing tattoos, like, it's so easy to beon their bad side.
Yeah.
no, no, I was just stunned that you don't even have the freedom not to eat meat.
Just seems
Yeah, because like are you you are you smarter than than God who made or created theseanimals for us to eat so
(19:10):
Yeah, I found that I just find the, taking the freedom to not do something to be worsethan taking away the freedom to do something, but that's neither here nor there.
Yeah
To be fair, guess it's more of a stance that fundamentalists will take against people whohave an ethical approach to something like vegetarianism or veganism.
(19:38):
Yeah.
How dare you, how dare you feel sorry for animals?
How dare you?
The idea, yeah, exactly, idea behind it is that we all need to adhere to a specific moralstandard that's set in stone and
And there is no leeway like there is no leeway in that specific set of standards or ethics
(20:02):
the reason why I mention this and I'm increasingly mentioning this if somebody's beenfollowing us for the last period of time, maybe you'll notice that I'm approaching the
topic of ex-Muslim identity from this different angle because I've also noticed that inthe West, for example, and especially in less...
(20:30):
less strict and less fundamentalist Muslim communities, just like it is with all moderateand peaceful communities, whether it be Christians, partisans, Catholics, Buddhists,
whatever it might be, where you have a certain vague, overlying cultural, religiousidentity that ties into ethnicity.
(21:02):
in a significant way as well.
And you do also see people from Western and liberal backgrounds who might identify as,yeah, like say an atheist Muslim or I mean, guess this is somewhat of a more extreme
(21:23):
example, but I mean, even like a vegan Muslim, a gay Muslim, you know.
Certainly
Yeah, yeah, a Muslim with, I guess, more mystical tendencies, like Sufism.
I mean Sufism, for example, is something that is very much within the Islamic tradition.
(21:53):
but is still rejected by the fundamentalists.
It is very much rejected by the fundamentals and you know concepts like say pantheismor...
you know different ways of understanding the nature of reality and god
Yeah, I mean Islam is really rigid.
(22:16):
think yeah, it's a really rigid religion
Yeah.
And nowadays, nowadays within like Salafi context especially, I mean, to be honest, likesay Iran and other like even Shia context, even taking some Sufi approaches that might
(22:37):
have historically had a lot of weight would make you an apostate and thereby, in a way,impose this ex-Muslim identity upon you.
Wait, Aran is getting mad at Sufis for being Sufis now?
I did not say that.
(22:59):
did not say that and I don't...
Yeah, I'm just addressing a more general point about orthodoxy, a very strict orthodoxythat even some Shia groups are...
(23:21):
adopting and enforcing in the way that that Wahhabis and Salafis have over the past coupleof centuries been known for.
So this is as far as what I wanted to say about ex-Muslim community, about ex-Muslimidentity and how a lot of people within the Middle East just
(23:48):
just have this feeling of complete alienation of I don't belong to this society becausethe institutions of this society reject me.
So yeah, it's really a problem that comes from the religious establishment rather thanindividuals who are trying to be contrarians is what I'm getting at.
(24:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Do you want to talk about your sexuality too?
I mean, sure.
I mean, it only added complexity, further complexity to my personal experience because assomeone who does not fit the mold in a very conservative and very rigid social construct
(24:37):
like the Middle Eastern society or the Muslim society more specifically.
Yeah, it's really...
It's really difficult to be different in those places.
And at that period of that time in my life, it wasn't a priority for me because I had tosurvive first to be able to think about those things or consider sexual orientation.
(25:14):
But yeah, mean, it didn't make things easier, I can tell you that.
Absolutely.
For sure, for sure.
I know it's something that we don't want to get into any detail on, but the fact is thatduring the Syrian revolution, there was a very complex relationship between the repressive
(25:37):
Assad regime and on the one hand, people who are demanding very basic rights, and on theother hand, you have a
a minority of very extreme Islamists and the Assad regime has been very well known to havegiven fuel to the Islamist element of this so as to frame themselves as the ones who are
(26:10):
fighting Islamist terror.
And one of the effects that this had is
Certainly in some parts of Syria, in many parts of Syria, a lot more strict Islamic normswere enforced than probably ever before.
(26:35):
We need only to mention the era where ISIS ruled great parts of that region and the kindof draconian rules that they enforce.
Yeah, and I have a deeper comment about...
are necessary at this point because most of our listeners are probably familiar with.
I have a deeper comment about that whole choice they made too.
(27:00):
Because it may sound a little like a conspiracy theory, but I almost think that part ofthe reason that Assad released all the Islamists and jihadis was because when ISIS is
showing up and is showing and is very openly expressing ambitions to conquer literally theentire world,
(27:25):
and inspire terrorist attacks in the West.
It meant that they'd get the US and the rest of the NATO air forces dropping bombs ontheir enemies, which is their first advantage to doing it.
And if Russia was involved in that decision at all, almost makes me think that they werehoping to undermine the West by causing refugee flows and
(27:51):
Considering that Belarus first bet just Belarus and then right both Russia and Belarusstarted actively bringing refugees to the EU border and Try and push them over it.
They're probably trying to cause trouble cause a bunch of strife.
Maybe even encourage right wingers To the way the right wing is sided with Russia it'shelped Russia that way and I can't prove any of this but
(28:17):
There's certainly been a lot of speculation that part of Russia's reason for invadingUkraine wasn't they wanted to increase their Slavic population.
They haven't even taken ethnicity of newborn babies into account in 30 years.
No one knows exactly what the ethnic break makeup of Russia is these days.
There's significant reason to believe that non Ruskies have been having more kids thanRuskies and the Ruskies leave Russia at higher rates.
(28:46):
It's almost like that they wanted to cause a refugee flow of Middle Easterners just sothat what they're suffering happens to the EU as well.
And this is all assuming that that ethno-nationalism is a big motivation in Russianpolicy.
It's hard to really be sure.
(29:07):
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a lot to say about the relationship between the Kremlinand far-right elements, both in Germany and wider Europe and the United States as well.
We all know that the Kremlin interfered in the 2016 presidential election to get DonaldTrump elected, for example.
(29:33):
they're all convinced that was completely made up now.
That it's all propaganda.
Of course they are.
Yeah, me and my buddy Putin, we've been through a lot together.
So don't you say a bad word about him, Zelensky.
You remember that?
Yeah, that fiasco at the White House.
(29:56):
Anyway, we could go on for hours, really, talking about the relationship between Trump andPutin and just the bizarre nature of those...
even the way that those things are denied to betray so much about the deep relationshipthat they have with each other.
(30:19):
But this isn't the topic for
It's so much easier to tell these things when one of the participants clearly has somesort of dementia.
Yes, any case, mean, it isn't the topic for today's episode, even though we will circleback to Donald Trump and the situation with refugees and migrants in the United States,
(30:44):
because it is very relevant to this as well.
But going back to Anas's story, Anas, struggled a lot in Syria, you've been through a lot.
And there are certain things that we're just not going to mention in today's recording.
(31:06):
But at a certain point, you're able to safely arrive in Egypt.
But yeah, at that point, of course, you're a Syrian refugee.
You don't have the same rights as an Egyptian.
And life was kind of difficult.
(31:28):
Can you...
can you expound on your experience there and especially living there as an ex-Muslim, as aSyrian refugee who as far as I understand isn't legally allowed to work, as a person, as a
(31:53):
queer person who...
This community has also been targeted by Egyptian authorities very systematically.
Tell us about the time that you spent in Egypt.
How long was it and how was it for you?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I was in Egypt for seven years.
(32:13):
I mean, to be honest, being a Syrian refugee in Egypt is much, much better than being anex-Muslim in Egypt or an LGBTQ member in Egypt.
So all the issues that I had, mean, most of them, especially in the
(32:36):
better part of the period of time that I spent in Egypt were because I did not belongagain to this conservative society as in being an ex-Muslim and an LGBTQ member.
(32:56):
Because the Egyptian society is very similar to the Syrian society.
I mean,
They used to be one country at some point.
so, yeah, so the struggle was the same, to be honest, minus the war part of it.
(33:21):
Yeah.
In the beginning, as someone who just got out of a war-torn country, I was actually happythat I got out and I was...
I was really glad that the situation in Egypt was the way it was because at that time, youknow, everything was easy.
(33:46):
There wasn't large numbers of refugees in general in Egypt or Syrian refugeesspecifically.
So there wasn't much discrimination against refugees in Egypt.
But as the years went on and as the economical collapse of Egypt started to take place, ofcourse, refugees being one of the most or the first things to blame in any country that
(34:19):
faces or goes through any type of financial struggle, things started to get worse.
And in my...
situation or in my personal experience being an ex-Muslim, I mean the Egyptian people arevery religious.
(34:40):
like saying or doing anything that doesn't fit the narrative to them is really frownedupon and yeah like things like drinking in the street or drinking in public during Ramadan
or again doing anything.
(35:03):
No, no, I'm talking about like drinking water.
Even if you are a Christian, for example, like it's again, Islam is so rigid.
It can't bend, it only breaks.
And actually I think that's why there are, at least in my experience,
(35:25):
much more ex-Muslims than ex-Christians because Islam doesn't really like it doesn't allowyou to function within its boundaries without being strictly following all the ethics or
like the the moral compass of of God or Islam like you can't you either do it all or notdo it at all so anyway yeah
(35:54):
In the last 3 to 4 years after 2020 things really got bad in Egypt for everyone.
For refugees, of course, more specifically for Syrian refugees, even more specifically forex-Muslim LGBTQ member Syrian refugees, it was very dire.
(36:16):
I was very limited in the things that I can express, say, do.
I lost my ability to work a decent job.
I was really
Can you expand on what you just said, losing your ability to work in these?
(36:39):
with with with Yeah, yeah, it was a law that basically said that I mean it was alwaysthere that law it's just that it got enforced then Which is basically that you need to
have a work permit to work which someone as a Refugee you don't have so Yeah, I mean and
(37:07):
Having or getting a work visa is near impossible.
So you're basically in limbo and
How are refugees expected to...
I have no idea to be honest.
No, I have no idea like that's why that's why Like they you find refugees forced to work,you know either dangerous or low-paying jobs or jobs that no one else would work Because
(37:38):
they are forced into this type of modern slavery like I couldn't apply like I couldn'tutilize or leverage my
knowledge in engineering or other skills that I have and apply for a decent job at adecent company because I could not do that legally and of course no company would
(37:59):
jeopardize itself from a legal standpoint to employ me.
So I was forced to work the jobs that no one will work for very little pay.
So
protections like like
absolutely.
No protections, no benefits, everything I pay out of pocket.
(38:19):
It's difficult.
I mean, was...
No one was harming me.
No one was knocking on my door.
Yeah, sure.
But I was...
I was a prisoner.
That's the thing.
I was a prisoner in my own house, in my own, you know, mind.
(38:42):
I couldn't express anything, I couldn't behave in the way that I would like to presentmyself as.
So, yeah, I mean, it was a lot of internal struggles and externally I just had to keepwearing the mask, the same mask that I wore in Syria because again, those two societies
(39:05):
are really similar with key differences, of course.
And so, yeah, I...
Basically, I was in the same situation.
Therefore, I was looking to get out of there as the same way I was looking to get out ofSyria.
Sure, sure.
mean, at first glance it might not seem as much of a big deal to say that you had to hideyour religious beliefs in your workplace and things like that.
(39:36):
mean, how often do those topics even come up in a civilized
No, yeah, I mean they don't come they don't
Of course, you're not constantly being asked about your religious beliefs and things likethat.
But to clarify a little bit about the social constraints that we have in a lot of MiddleEastern countries, it's not just that.
(40:06):
It's also there are daily and yearly and cyclical religious practices that you're expectedto...
participate in otherwise you can be excluded from wider societal participation.
(40:27):
yeah, so for example if you're working during Ramadan, you're expected to fast, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, not only like it's you are expected to pray and you are questioned if you are notgoing to the mosque during the day, you are expected to fast and I mean if
(40:50):
And does that have concrete employment?
I sure, I was fired for drinking water during Ramadan, which is something that is absurdand like it's a badly written comedic story if anyone from the Western world would hear
(41:13):
about it.
But I mean that's the reality of living in these societies.
That's what I mean when I say I was in a prison.
There was...
a set of rules that I needed to follow whether I believed in or not and the option for notbelieving in those rules wasn't even there so it's like a pretend game but a very cruel
(41:40):
one
Of course, of course.
mean, yeah, it's an incident that really shocked me.
as a person who comes from Saudi Arabia, mean, know, Benjamin texted me or told me inconversation at one point that you were fired for drinking water during your job.
(42:04):
I mean, was just completely perplexed by that.
I mean, and I also
feel like it has something to do with status and intersectional, multilayereddiscrimination that people face in such contexts.
mean, maybe if you are a Saudi Arabian man from a wealthy family working a prestigious joband you're drinking water during the job,
(42:35):
Nobody's going to ask questions.
And even if somebody does ask questions, can find an excuse, right?
I'm sick, whatever.
I'm on my period.
Whatever you like, just find an excuse.
do you think, yeah, mean, that this is a wider issue?
(43:01):
mean, maybe if you weren't a Syrian refugee, that's...
something like that, like this kind of audacity, nobody would dare have this kind ofaudacity there, mean...
can't come up with any kind of excuse in such a situation.
being a refugee and working a low level job and working with uneducated, mostly illiteratepeople yeah, I mean that plays a big role in it and it's much much complicated and nuanced
(43:41):
than just drinking water during Ramadan but that's...
And Benjamin, this is one of the many incidents that raise your attention to Anas'situation and drove you to invest in his welfare and try to sponsor him.
(44:05):
I would like to go back to your side of the story and from the beginning of thefundraising efforts, what you had in mind in terms of...
sponsoring him as I understand at the beginning who were looking to get him sponsored toCanada through some other groups maybe.
(44:28):
So yeah, not too long after that incident, we found out that Welcome Core was being made,that Welcome Core and Peace Core both end in core.
Absolutely not a coincidence.
A lot of the people founding it were in Peace Core.
(44:49):
I actually met one of the people who has been helping us with lot of logistical stuff in atalk about Peace Corps, an online talk about Peace Corps Georgia, where I just mentioned
that I was in a different country and mentioned that I was hoping to sponsor a refugee andsome, and somebody involved in that program contacted me and we're still in touch.
(45:11):
And contacted friends I knew one if I had moved about it about a year before that one ofmy friends from Peace Corps is in the city I'd lived in before and looked into sponsoring
him but What just made the most sense was moving back to my home state where I have a fewfamily members who were happy to be in the sponsorship group to You need to have five
(45:32):
people five or more people in the sponsorship group Just like the Canadian privatesponsorship
citizens are permanent residents.
So we were able to get a group, it was actually a group of seven and then one had to moveto another state.
All near where I grew up, so I just moved home and ran the sponsor in.
(45:57):
Little after we finished the recording, I'm going to be picking up my family members fromthe airport.
So we were able to, so right after, welcome core.
Cora's option to sponsor someone you know became a possibility.
We were able to fill out the paperwork and get it started.
Do you want to talk about your end of that process?
(46:19):
Yes.
Well, to be honest, I was getting really desperate and I was losing hope.
Actually in 2023, I was struggling a lot with mental health and I went into a very dark,depressive episode that lasted multiple months.
(46:41):
So the reason for that was that we weren't getting anywhere.
I wasn't getting anywhere, meaning I didn't have
or couldn't build a plan to get out of Egypt in the first four or five years I was thereand it was getting to me it was really making me feel hopeless so when Welcome Core came
(47:10):
out of like came into existence or existence or it gave me hope
And to be honest, I was very doubtful of the whole thing because, you know, the US isn'tfamous for programs like Qualcomm Corp.
(47:32):
So, but yeah, I mean, it took them a year to start phase two, which is like when you canselect or name the refugee or refugees that you want to sponsor.
And we went through the process and we were extremely lucky to have it done in less than ayear and, you know, being able to arrive here just two weeks before everything went down.
(48:13):
Yeah.
I mean, it was a completely nerve wracking experience even.
It was.
It didn't help that I had multiple skeletal problems at the same time.
I I wasn't as directly involved as Benjamin and his wonderful family, but I mean, it wascompletely nerve-wracking, the incidents and the problems that Amos was facing around the
(48:39):
end of his time in Egypt.
Like I said, there were certain things that we're just not going to get into, but acomplete relief as...
things finally started to look positive there.
You can look at our Facebook page or Instagram and check out our latest uploaded video ofus coming to the airport and finally being greeted by Benjamin and his family and really
(49:20):
it's brought tears to my eyes.
It was such an amazing experience.
you know, the feeling of, you know, the idea that you can really bring such a profoundchange through this kind of effort.
(49:45):
And of course, this all happened around the exact same time when the Assad regime wasfalling and
And Anas had his interview with the US State Department just a few days before Assad fledSyria.
(50:13):
Which...
Yeah.
raised questions about, you know, whether this is going to have an effect on the decision.
And it actually worse than that sounds.
The interview specifically focused about the risk of being conscripted, which was actuallya minor part of Anas's refugee case.
It was mostly about being non-religious and gay.
(50:38):
And then after how many hours of being asked about being conscripted, all of a sudden,Assad leaves, military dissolves, no possible way.
Yeah, it was really...
It was really like a weird coincidence, I would say.
(51:00):
I certainly did not expect that to happen.
I mean, the interview itself, the focus on being conscripted into the Assad army...
That being the main focus point in my case was really, really weird.
But again, I mean, the US government works in mysterious ways.
(51:24):
And no most sounds like just putting him an edge was the point to me
Yeah, I mean I answered the questions I was asked I I did what they wanted and I wentthrough the process just that as they they want so I I didn't really have any anything to
be fearful of other than being you know, the the case manager or the the USCIS officerjust focusing on the on this aspect of my case knowing that
(51:57):
this is the least important aspect of it.
But no, no, seems that all was either like a mind game, he was playing with me to see ifI'll crack or something, or that it was something that he just needed to do like a
protocol or something.
I have no idea to be honest.
(52:18):
But yeah, after, I mean, I did not know that, I did not have that peace of mind untilafter like,
two weeks.
So I had to spend like a week and a half after the Assad regime fell, not knowing that Iwas approved by that USCIS officer, although the main reason or the main thing that I was
(52:46):
questioned about no longer exists.
One of the main things that we like to talk about on this podcast is the nuance thatdifferent refugee cases have, that individual cases and individual grounds for persecution
(53:12):
be it for the ex-Muslim being LGBT and so on.
They can vary and they can be very nuanced and you can have countries that are generallysafe or not, particularly dangerous for most of their populations, but people from certain
(53:35):
identities are very much in danger.
I mean, you can take a look at Malaysia, which a lot of...
like in a lot of contexts is considered to be a say, country of origin, which, you know,within a certain context is true, but, you know, if you've listened to our episode about
(54:01):
Malaysian ex-Muslims, you will see that there are also struggles that individuals havethat are quite nuanced and, yeah.
and maybe don't directly connect to something that affects everyone.
(54:25):
And this is generally the case for subsidiary protection, which is legally a little bitdifferent from the right to asylum, which, yeah, there are legal details that we don't
have to get into right now.
But the fact is just because, for example, Syria right now is no longer
(54:45):
Assad regime and this issue of conscription isn't as much of a concern, right?
You still have a lot of very genuine worries that religious minorities have.
Yeah, most importantly, know, whether we're talking about Alawites or, you know, orChristians or even ex-Muslims.
(55:14):
Right.
So I think internationally, is a very big issue that a lot of countries, maybe they don'thave enough resources, maybe they're lazy, maybe they're just not looking into the nuance
of it and just looking, oh, what is our general impression of this country?
(55:39):
And yeah, the fact that I was granted asylum at...
at a time, the aftermath of the Khashoggi incident that carries some weight.
There are people from Saudi Arabia who have much more compelling cases in all honesty thataren't seen in the same way because there is this general perception of the general region
(56:02):
that doesn't take into consideration the nuances of individual stories.
And I think this is a big problem internationally.
And the fact that despite all of that, and after that, this decision was made about Anas'scase and he was actually able to relocate to the United States.
(56:30):
Yeah, it's amazing.
It's wonderful.
And I wish we could see more of that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, and I mean if any of our listeners would like to do it, you might not be able tosponsor someone now, but if you get all your, if you preemptively get all your t's
crossed, while you can't for the sake of the, for dot your i's, well if you haveeverything planned out and start putting money aside now, there's a very good chance that
(57:04):
the next president will be a democrat and
that the people who got Welcome Core made last time will do it again.
And if it's only open for a year again, well, if you're ready, as soon as it's open andcan sponsor someone, make a huge difference in their life.
Absolutely.
(57:25):
Absolutely.
we're not just talking about the United States.
I mean, we have a global audience here, right?
We have a lot of people from Russia, from Ukraine, from Saudi Arabia, from Malaysia, fromIndonesia, from Germany, from across the United States, listening to us, from Canada, And
(57:48):
I mean, Canada, for example, does still have...
the private sponsorship program.
Yeah, I my small problem with that though.
Yeah, there's there's someone else we know who has been waiting for who?
Got got all the paperwork then.
Got accepted literally years ago and he's still waiting because something with theirquotas, apparently Trudeau let a whole bunch of people in.
(58:15):
So now the people are waiting on private sponsorship are still stuck and that guy is inNepal where you.
But after your visa runs out, have to pay an $8 a day fine, which sure adds up fast for arefugee.
I ended up sending $1,000 to deal with that, and it's still...
$8 a day is still adding up for him, so...
(58:36):
yeah.
Yeah, I mean, there are many different ways that people can be helped getting out of badand dangerous situations, right?
Benjamin just mentioned giving a thousand dollars of his own private money for, yeah, tohelp.
(59:06):
refugee across the world again.
There are lot of examples of this, and I'm not just talking about Ben, but there are a lotof private individuals doing a lot and putting a lot in this kind of effort, even though
the welcome court has been discontinued in the United States, which actually I would liketo go into this a little bit because
(59:36):
Because right-wing politicians are often demonizing illegal migrants or irregular migrantswho lack protections, who are very much exploited.
And a lot of the time, the economies of those countries in some way rely on them.
(01:00:03):
American agriculture, for example, takes a lot of irregular migrants because they don'thave the same standards and can be more easily exploited.
And in addition to that, a lot of these these migrants are also coming from a backgroundwhere working in the field by hand for 10 hours, they do it anyway.
(01:00:35):
They can come and do it here.
It paid better than doing it at home.
Sure, sure.
mean, it's one of the many things that simplistic fanatical right-wing politics does best,which is just reduce very complex societal problems to, yeah, we have too much foreigners,
(01:01:03):
we have illegal migrants, they commit crimes, they need to all go away kind of thing.
And the fact is, irregular migration is a serious problem, both in the United States andin Europe.
We have a dysfunctional system that is empowering human traffickers, who are also verymuch exploiting and abusing refugees all the time.
(01:01:38):
We have a system that empowers this kind of behavior.
To go back to a meeting that I was in recently with a Moroccan woman who was in seriousdanger, who also was pregnant as to be in such serious danger by multiple European
(01:02:02):
governments, but...
A lot of the time they don't really have the mechanism to provide safe passage to peoplethat they know are in need of protection and potentially are also capable of being a great
contribution to the society.
like, no, you just come to our borders and then you can apply for asylum.
(01:02:26):
How are you going to do that?
Of course you're going to do that through human traffickers.
The fact that we don't have effective systems of safe passage for those who truly need it,this very much empowers global human trafficking.
(01:02:51):
And look, mean, when people need something as much as they need safety from war and frompersecution,
There's no amount of laws and there's no amount of regulation and border control that isgoing to stop them from leaving the dangerous situation that they are in.
(01:03:13):
It's only going to lead to the human trafficking market being concentrated in the hands ofpeople who have enough power to bypass those laws.
charge more money and exploit refugees more.
(01:03:34):
And they're the ones who win in the end.
And for this reason, think it's incredibly stupid and incredibly irresponsible, not justfor Donald Trump, but also the emergent German government right now.
(01:03:59):
which is considerably more right-wing than the previous one, they come on the stage with amessage of, have a problem with illegal migration, we're not in control of it, there's a
(01:04:21):
dominance of human trafficking rings and so on.
And of course, there are...
there are bureaucratic dysfunctionalities that make it so that a lot of refugees are leftin limbo, so that they can't provide for themselves and they can't live a normal life and
(01:04:41):
might succumb to addiction and a lot of other problems.
And through this kind of messaging and effort curtail safe ways of passage.
for legal and regular documented migration of people who were vetted, who were checked,who we know pose no ostensible danger, that we know a lot of the time in large part share
(01:05:24):
our values.
People who
are in genuine need of protection people like Anas here who Yeah, I mean Benjamin hasknown him for a long time he and his family are willing to support him He is getting
integrated into American society At such a such a fast pace that really Like something
(01:05:57):
you would never expect in Europe because unfortunately we do have an issue with irregularmigration which please do not misunderstand this as giving any credence to the xenophobic
far-right parties that are trying to blame everything on foreigners.
(01:06:24):
I'm talking about a systemic problem of integration and migration that we need to get ontop of.
We need to provide safe and legal pathways for refugees to relocate.
what Donald Trump is doing is completely counterproductive to long-term
(01:06:53):
long-term prosperity and safety and migration that is accounted for in a reasonablemanner.
Yeah, and on top of that, there's something particular about this.
The way the Trump administration puts countries on blacklists, I mean, even if you acceptthe premise that there's an inherent danger of having Muslims come over, which certainly
(01:07:28):
it's not that simple, they block out entire countries.
Not letting anyone from certain countries come over that smells like ethno-nationalistmotivations, not like any sort of security motivations.
And on some level, yeah, Yazidis should definitely be treated different from Muslims inthe refugee system.
(01:07:51):
They've experienced 22 genocides at the hands of Muslims.
I'd say there's a strong argument to be made that we should just let the entire, all halfmillion Yazidis in the world
all move to one place.
They don't seek converts, which is kind of the root of religious violence in general.
They will not in any way be a threat.
(01:08:13):
And so many people voted for Trump talking about religious persecution, and now he'slocking out all Syrians, including Syrian Christians.
And funnily enough, they did talk about letting white South Africans come to the U.S.
and well, my least favorite immigrant is a white South African.
(01:08:35):
yeah, I completely understand.
And I agree with your sentiment completely, even though I'm not in the United States.
But this specific immigrant that you're talking about has completely wreaked havoc onGerman politics as well.
yeah, I'm also involved in like advocating right now for having this individual bannedfrom entering Germany.
(01:09:05):
And I hope people in the UK and people in Austria are also, I mean, some people areworking on it, but I hope it really goes through.
know, somebody openly displaying Nazi symbolism, relativizing the Holocaust in front ofthe German parliament, supporting far-right neo-Nazi parties.
(01:09:33):
really has no place here.
And Germans, of course, are also becoming increasingly aware of this.
A majority of Germans are now against the idea of supporting Elon Musk's businesses orbuying a Tesla, even though Tesla has seen quite a substantial growth in
(01:10:03):
in past years in Germany, but now it's plummeting in a way that should be expected,considering his completely antisocial behavior and behavior that's destructive to
international peace and politics.
(01:10:27):
Yeah, and I mean, on some level, yes, if we have a constant flow of Muslim immigrants andthen they get they have a higher birth rate than their population.
Yes, that that is how you get demographic changes.
The Catholic population in the US is here from the same process.
(01:10:48):
And, you know, that's part of my family history.
I never and I.
And I will never can never fathom why there's so many Catholics I know who are upset aboutCatholic immigrants, know, Hispanics coming to the US.
It's kind of funny.
I mean, the second most like the party with the second most involvement from people withforeign backgrounds does happen to be the AFD, which if you don't know is the neo-Nazi
(01:11:22):
party in Germany.
yeah, mean, actually, it is quite a phenomenon that we see that, you old migrants are
complaining about new ones and it's like, I want to close the door behind me because iftoo many people come after me, then I'm going to be grouped into the same category and
(01:11:45):
problems that they're causing might cause me to be expelled or that kind of thing.
I met a Russian immigrant to Germany in my travels.
We were in Sri Lanka.
Who was talking about how Arab and Turkish immigrants should make an effort to integrate.
(01:12:10):
So yeah.
And I mean, yeah, on some level, people of a wildly different religion may have differentpractices.
And certainly we're talking about the problems with Muslims being upset about people whodon't follow exactly their beliefs.
And yeah, there's a little bit of that among Muslim migrants.
(01:12:33):
You did mention a little bit ago the support that you've been providing to other refugeesacross the world.
And this is, of course, in addition to investments that both I and Benjamin have beenmaking towards this podcast.
(01:12:57):
I mean, the equipment, the software that we use, the time,
that we spend in editing and producing those shows.
It's very significant, right?
And as you probably know, this isn't bringing any money to us.
(01:13:23):
It's basically a project that costs a lot of money at this point.
And it is one of the reasons why, despite the fact that around the beginning of thisproject, we were aiming for one episode every two weeks to be released.
(01:13:47):
Right now, as of the time of the recording, it is the 19th of March, and the last episodethat we released was in the beginning of January.
So obviously we're not holding
to the goal that we set ourselves at the beginning.
(01:14:07):
Quite honestly, I don't think it's feasible with the resources that we have at the moment,both in terms of time and money.
Yeah, I'm about to go back to 60-hour work weeks.
Yeah, on top of the financial investments that are being made, both I and Ben workmultiple jobs.
(01:14:33):
So finding time to really work on this, which is really close to our hearts, ispractically very, very difficult.
Also, obviously we're not rich people, right?
I mean, the financial investments that we have to make also are difficult sometimes.
(01:14:55):
And for those reasons, we thought this would be a very good opportunity to present ourcase to you, dear listeners, to financially support this project.
So if you subscribe to our Patreon or donate to us on PayPal, the revenue will be split.
(01:15:21):
So 50 % of the revenue will be used to reinvest in this podcast and invest in equipmentsoftware and so on so that we don't have to pay so much out of our own pockets.
If it comes to such a point where that is feasible, maybe.
Maybe we can use those resources to buy ourselves more time to work on this.
(01:15:46):
And the other half of what we hopefully will receive from you is going to be invested inhelping refugees, other refugees further follow their dreams and try to get to safety and
start a life of dignity.
(01:16:09):
So, so yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so for the time being, half we set aside for podcast expenses, other half for eitherfuture sponsorships or helping on us or his family.
If we get enough, we might actually split.
(01:16:31):
I might buy a house and maybe use it to get a mother-in-law suite in the back for futuresponsorships if Welcome Court comes back and that looks likely.
One of the rules is that the refugee cannot live with the sponsors unless they're family.
Apparently that's because some of the people sponsoring Ukrainians were saying, I'llsponsor you if you work with me or were creepy men hoping to get a wife out of the deal.
(01:17:02):
So that was put in.
So if that reasonable, if I have a mother-in-law unit behind my house or one of the otherpeople are sponsorship groups houses, we can.
put it on Airbnb when we're not sponsoring someone and put money aside.
And then we have a place for refugee.
We're sponsoring to live that is separate from us.
(01:17:22):
They have their own space and it will allow us to sponsor them without legal difficultiesand just really cuts down on the expenses and the whole deal.
So I don't know if we'll be able to raise enough for a mortgage payment for a mother inlaw suite, but if it goes that well, that is great.
(01:17:42):
Let us start with baby steps and just make sure that the costs that are already tied tothis podcast are covered without me or you having to pay out of our own pockets.
And hopefully that we're able to help refugees in some capacity.
(01:18:07):
And then we will see if...
Yeah, if there is some potential for growth to do even more things, then that would bevery much welcome and every cent would be put to good use.
Benjamin, if I may ask you, I don't think I even know the figure I haven't asked youbefore.
(01:18:30):
Within this whole endeavor of sponsoring Anas, how much did it cost you personally?
Now that you mention it, I think the minimum to have an account in an account set asidefor him was 2600 or so, right?
(01:18:53):
$2,550 I think per individual.
So if you are sponsoring more than one refugee, you can multiply that number.
It's not even a multiplication since since the rent is less.
It's there's a whole formula.
It's on the welcome car page.
If you can even still get to it, I don't think you can.
But yeah, but I had four thousand dollars set aside for him.
(01:19:17):
Right now, I think three thousand five hundred still there.
One of our friends is hosting him for rent free, so that's helping out.
One of my family members have been helping with food.
He's also getting food stamps.
(01:19:37):
So it's it's it's been within the within the price range of of a normal person all aroundsince we were able to avoid paying for rent in this time.
And.
(01:19:57):
So yeah, and I've still been supporting his family since he got here and before he leftthat wasn't even included in that.
Came out to about $400 a month after he was banned from working.
I think it was $200 month when he was still working after the war in Ukraine started andall of a sudden life in Egypt got a whole lot more expensive.
And Sudanese refugees are pushing up the cost of housing too or landlords are sayingSudanese refugees are putting up, pushing up the cost of housing as the case may be.
(01:20:28):
And obviously an average American worker is not going to be able to cover these kinds ofexpenses on the long term.
especially if we want to scale it up, it's just not going to be feasible.
We really, really want to be able to stick to a schedule where we are able to release oneepisode every two weeks.
(01:20:57):
Maybe, aspirationally, the beginning, every month at least, bring to you more of thosestories, help more people and so on.
So, yeah, consider making a one-time donation to PayPal or a regular donation to Patreonso that we would have a secured source of funds to further these projects.
(01:21:28):
We would really appreciate any support if you made it this far into the podcast.
hope you've comprehended and are able to really appreciate this project.
And we look forward to your participation.
(01:21:50):
right.
And if somebody doesn't have money but does have time and would like to edit for us, thatwould be amazing too.
Alright, yeah, our contact information is always in our description, as of now, our PayPaland our Patreon as well.
(01:22:12):
Benjamin, Anas, any closing words before we wrap this up?
I'm gonna close with saying that it's really like having such a substantial positiveeffect on someone else's life is I think something one can only do
(01:22:47):
one time in their lives.
Like I really cannot express how grateful and how thankful I am for Benjamin and all ofthe sponsors that participated in my sponsorship.
(01:23:09):
But at the same time, I'm eager to be in a position where I'll be able to help
other people that are in the situation I was in.
having because having that impact on someone else's life is real something really worthworking towards.
(01:23:30):
And if there is anything that would give me and people like me hope in a better future forus as a society, as humans is people like Benjamin.
Who are getting out of their way to to make a meaningful?
(01:23:51):
difference in other people's in other people's lives, sorry, so yeah, I Encourage everyoneto Participate whether financially or even by looking into how to sponsor someone or a
refugee in their country It's an amazing experience.
(01:24:13):
It's
It's something...
It's a privilege to be honest, to be able to help someone in such way.
Anas, was truly an honor to have you on the podcast and I know this was not easy for you.
(01:24:33):
I mean, you have been through a lot and on the one hand, of course, we don't want tore-traumatize you.
On the other hand, we also want to bring the message out there.
the fact that you showed yourself willing to come on and talk about your story.
(01:24:54):
We really immensely appreciate that.
Thank you so much for being with us.
you for having me.
Benjamin, are there any last words that you would like to leave our audience with beforewe finish this episode?
Just hope other people are interested in helping refugees and hope more people talkingabout the whole migration situation look into how policies they may or may not support are
(01:25:30):
making it worse.
guess the biggest is how many anti-gun people, or very pro-gun people, scream aboutmigrants at the border and don't realize that at least possibly significant.
Definitely more 70 % of guns used by Mexican drug cartels come out of the US and you know,and how a lot of the current policies incentivize people to use human smugglers.
(01:26:01):
And hopefully some of our listeners would like to sponsor a refugee like on us in thefuture if that is an opportunity they'll ever have.
Thank you guys so much again.
Thank you, Ben.
Yeah, I mean, just from one human being to another, I really appreciate the efforts thatyou've been making in helping people and I aspire to maybe one day be as altruistic as you
(01:26:34):
are.
Maybe that's not going to be necessary.
hopefully we can do more.
this product.
So alright everyone, take care, yeah have a wonderful day, have a wonderful evening, staysafe.
And until next time, bye.
Hello, hello and welcome everyone to the Emancipated Citizen Podcast where we present toyou the stories of some of the bravest men and women out there, standing up for their
freedom and their individuality against...
And telling us about their struggles.
I am your host Zach Alvarez with me is Benjamin Snow and
(00:37):
Yeah, for the first time, our guest is physically with me while we're interviewing.
Hey Anna!
Hey
into it.
Today I am going to be, I guess, interviewing Ben a little bit and also trying to presentsome of what Benjamin has been up to over the past years, because it is something that is
(01:02):
truly extraordinary and I don't think we've quite talked about this on the podcast, but ithas always been something that is going on in the background.
So just for a overview, Ben kind of started his activism and his involvement throughgetting to know people through social media specifically, specifically Anas, who is a
(01:31):
refugee from Syria.
And for a long time, he has been providing not just like moral.
you know personal support but also also like on a on a financial and legal level has beenvery involved in in helping I'm just saying the truth and I I mean I think it's very
(02:00):
important that that our audience is aware of this so that so that we can we can also kindof kind of present the
I can say the pitch that we're trying to present in this episode and probably in the nextepisode as well, which has to do with actually raising material resources to help those
(02:24):
who need to either be relocated or need help to get to safety.
Yeah, so like I was saying, Benjamin has been very active talking to and supportingrefugees across the world.
(02:45):
There are people within, like who have been on the podcast, who have been immensely helpedby Benjamin's goodwill and also through the atheist support network, which we are both
involved in and part of how we connected.
So just talking about the pitch that I mentioned before earlier, we are launching aPatreon and a PayPal for a start and hopefully we are going to have more possibilities to
(03:22):
collect support which hopefully can be used to help free thinkers who need to come tosafety.
That being said, the beginning, which we will touch upon later as well.
That being said, I going to let Benjamin speak on the beginnings of his engagement withrefugees through social media, and we will move on from there.
(03:52):
Yeah, it started in 27 when Anis and I met on Facebook shortly after I got back to the USfrom my Diamond Peace Corps.
So 2007, Amy.
No, 2017.
Right after I got back from Peace Corps and talked for a while, I don't really feel likegoing back to our to our first conversations.
(04:18):
But right now we don't have the time.
But Anas had just gotten to Egypt after fleeing Syria.
Do you want to tell us anything about that trip?
Yeah, it was quite the journey.
I actually went from Syria to Sudan and from Sudan to Egypt through the desert.
(04:40):
It was like a 24 hours journey through the desert with no stops.
So yeah, it was quite the journey.
I made it to Egypt in late 2017 and that's when me and Benjamin met.
Yeah, it's something that we've actually talked about, I think, on our 10th episode withStephen Watt from Northern Lights Canada talking about Welcome Core and I don't know if
(05:14):
it's called Welcome
Actually about Canada's private sponsorship.
WelcomeCore was based on it and did not exist at the time.
Yeah, so that was some years ago.
We talked to Stephen Watt about private sponsorship in Canada, talking about the processof people meeting refugees on social media, primarily raising money, making sure that they
(05:42):
have a support network within Canada.
When they come, they're able to integrate in a manner that is...
Yeah, astonishingly effective, much better than quite honestly a lot of other systemsaround the world.
You can go back to our 10th episode if you would like to listen to that conversation.
(06:07):
Like Ben said, at that time, now that Trump is president, unfortunately, welcome court inthe United States did not exist in that way.
But welcome core, the private sponsorship program was launched for a brief period of timeduring the Biden administration, as far as I understand, before it was discontinued.
(06:34):
just, yeah, going back to the point of just human connection and meeting people on socialmedia, do you remember how you guys met and how this connection started?
It was through Facebook.
Yeah, as I recall on this was, just made a post in a group.
(06:54):
We were both in asking if there was anybody in Cairo.
he'd like to meet who, you know, ex-Muslims.
and I just contacted him and we stayed in touch since then.
Did you even meet anyone with that?
No, no, no, it was a very generic type of engagement.
(07:16):
I mean, to be honest, I did not expect a lifelong relationship to come of that post, butthat's what happened.
Yeah, mean, I guess some of the wildest coincidences are what lead to some of the mostsignificant developments in our lives, right?
And I eventually just started putting money aside to sponsor him eventually when I firststarted it was before anyone even thought of welcome core Or at least before you thought
(07:45):
about welcome core and spoke about it in a way that I would hear about I just put aside incase We might be able to find someone in Canada to sponsor on us could maybe be one of my
family members there if I could convince them to think that's in the cards, but
But just some of my tips from delivering and the money I got for being in the COVIDvaccine trial, which in addition to being about a thousand dollars for the sponsorship
(08:16):
also meant that I got the vaccine before my rather high risk parents, which also left mydad going.
So why is it the healthiest person in family is getting it first and then going,
Right when I reminded him that I told him how he could have signed up for the trial too.
Yeah.
(08:36):
Yeah, so yeah, basically you went through medical experiments to support somebody on theother side of the globe.
don't be fooled.
A big part of my motivation is to get the vaccine as soon as possible.
I guess, yeah, whatever.
In any case, mean, you guys probably met through a common interest, common identity.
(09:06):
You're both atheists, you're both non-religious, and you're both presumably very...
It's important to you guys to...
And ex-Muslim issues are important to you guys as well.
You know, the kind of persecution that former Muslims face in Egypt and Syria and otherparts of the Middle East.
(09:35):
Yeah, Benjamin probably having some experiences with the Christian nationalists orfundamentalist movements in the United States, having also a sort of personal...
connection to that topic, right?
Yeah, I mean, far as as far as that affects me, there's politicians who sometimes a fewpoliticians who say crazy stuff, mass movements with agendas that I find extremely
(10:09):
repulsive.
But as far as personal danger, I think Christians think atheists are more danger in the USthan we do.
And I've been in arguments about it with keyboard jihadis, too.
I was in three separate atheist groups in the south.
had a city council refuse to let us put up a booth once because they thought we might getattacked, but never once did I feel like I was in personal danger there.
(10:35):
And here we are.
Yeah, I mean, as I was about to finish my sentence, which is obviously not, you know,nearly to the same level of danger that people face in the Middle East.
I mean, you have the First Amendment, you have the right to free expression and, you know,free confession.
(10:57):
You're able to believe and express whatever you want in the United States, even though alot of people might not like it, right?
But...
On the other hand, mean, in Syria and in Egypt, it's completely different.
And that definitely plays into the reason why Anas had to leave Egypt as well, even thoughit was relatively safer than Syria.
(11:28):
Anas, would you like to talk a little bit about
your life in Syria, talk a little bit about the kinds of social pressures that people ofno faith face in Syria back then as well as now, and yeah, how your identity ties into all
(11:59):
of this and how you didn't feel
safe in your identity in your own country and to the point where that led you to fleeSyria and go to Egypt.
it's going to be perfectly understandable that, I mean, it should be perfectlyunderstandable that we might get a story here that doesn't have all of the details, right?
(12:32):
There actually might be...
periods of time that get no mention, yeah, for safety reasons and so on.
But do tell us what you can tell us about your journey from Syria and to Egypt, and thenwe can move on to your life in Egypt from there.
(12:56):
Sure, sure thing.
mean, growing up in a conservative environment or a conservative country, as someone whois questioning religion and the Middle Eastern social construct as a general, I believe, I
(13:19):
mean, it was so foreign that I...
honestly did not know words to describe, you know, the type of mental process that I wasdoing.
Like criticizing religion is something that is so prohibited that you can't put it intowords back then to me.
(13:47):
So yeah, I mean, it was really difficult to question religion or critique religion or
start to rethink one's beliefs when every single person in your life that you either talkto or even see believes that ideology or that religion and add to that the conflict that
(14:15):
took place in Syria I mean it only increased
the complexity of all of that and brought up lot of extremism to the surface.
And to be honest, like if I would summarize my experience or my state at that time, itwould be lost.
(14:44):
I was lost.
I was lost between what's happening on the ground, the immediate
danger, the physical danger that I am put through every single day and also theintellectual danger, the emotional danger that is surrounding me by people who believe
(15:08):
that people like me should be killed or people having other different perspectives ordifferent opinions about religion should be killed.
So yeah, I was pretty lost.
I was feeling alone.
(15:28):
As I said, I didn't even have the vocabulary to describe the mental process I was in.
Like, I didn't know what an atheist is.
I didn't know what it means to leave religion.
I didn't...
(15:49):
know that someone can leave religion in a practical sense.
yeah.
But there is one thing that I was sure of is that I do not belong to this place.
I do not, I did not belong and still don't belong to that area of the earth.
(16:13):
So I knew that I had to
leave I knew I had to get out some way and I started working on that from I would say like10-12 years ago.
Yeah, I mean, the ex-Muslim identity is something that I've talked about extensively inone of our more recent episodes, as specifically with Mohammed Nopal, is something that I
(16:47):
have increasingly come to understand as something that is not chosen or adopted, butrather imposed by an intolerant society.
What I mean by this is that Islam as a cultural identity is something that is exclusivelyenforced in such a way that is very totalitarian in a way that...
(17:17):
If you question any of the tenets of the faith, if you...
if you let go of certain practices, in some extreme cases, even if you're just avegetarian, for example, religious extremists are going to pronounce you as an apostate
(17:40):
because you have certain points of disagreement or points where you jump from in making,for example,
moral assessments.
And I mean this can go to a lot of different things, You can be pronounced to an apostateif you have same-sex relationships, for example.
(18:17):
Thank
You got pronounced in a past state for being a vegan?
Yes, yes, I mean...
Good lord!
I mean you can't
were individuals who have directly said that.
I mean, listening to music is prohibited, Like, doing anything, like wearing tight jeansis prohibited, you know?
(18:42):
Having certain haircuts as a man is prohibited, piercing tattoos, like, it's so easy to beon their bad side.
Yeah.
no, no, I was just stunned that you don't even have the freedom not to eat meat.
Just seems
Yeah, because like are you you are you smarter than than God who made or created theseanimals for us to eat so
(19:10):
Yeah, I found that I just find the, taking the freedom to not do something to be worsethan taking away the freedom to do something, but that's neither here nor there.
Yeah
To be fair, guess it's more of a stance that fundamentalists will take against people whohave an ethical approach to something like vegetarianism or veganism.
(19:38):
Yeah.
How dare you, how dare you feel sorry for animals?
How dare you?
The idea, yeah, exactly, idea behind it is that we all need to adhere to a specific moralstandard that's set in stone and
And there is no leeway like there is no leeway in that specific set of standards or ethics
(20:02):
the reason why I mention this and I'm increasingly mentioning this if somebody's beenfollowing us for the last period of time, maybe you'll notice that I'm approaching the
topic of ex-Muslim identity from this different angle because I've also noticed that inthe West, for example, and especially in less...
(20:30):
less strict and less fundamentalist Muslim communities, just like it is with all moderateand peaceful communities, whether it be Christians, partisans, Catholics, Buddhists,
whatever it might be, where you have a certain vague, overlying cultural, religiousidentity that ties into ethnicity.
(21:02):
in a significant way as well.
And you do also see people from Western and liberal backgrounds who might identify as,yeah, like say an atheist Muslim or I mean, guess this is somewhat of a more extreme
(21:23):
example, but I mean, even like a vegan Muslim, a gay Muslim, you know.
Certainly
Yeah, yeah, a Muslim with, I guess, more mystical tendencies, like Sufism.
I mean Sufism, for example, is something that is very much within the Islamic tradition.
(21:53):
but is still rejected by the fundamentalists.
It is very much rejected by the fundamentals and you know concepts like say pantheismor...
you know different ways of understanding the nature of reality and god
Yeah, I mean Islam is really rigid.
(22:16):
think yeah, it's a really rigid religion
Yeah.
And nowadays, nowadays within like Salafi context especially, I mean, to be honest, likesay Iran and other like even Shia context, even taking some Sufi approaches that might
(22:37):
have historically had a lot of weight would make you an apostate and thereby, in a way,impose this ex-Muslim identity upon you.
Wait, Aran is getting mad at Sufis for being Sufis now?
I did not say that.
(22:59):
did not say that and I don't...
Yeah, I'm just addressing a more general point about orthodoxy, a very strict orthodoxythat even some Shia groups are...
(23:21):
adopting and enforcing in the way that that Wahhabis and Salafis have over the past coupleof centuries been known for.
So this is as far as what I wanted to say about ex-Muslim community, about ex-Muslimidentity and how a lot of people within the Middle East just
(23:48):
just have this feeling of complete alienation of I don't belong to this society becausethe institutions of this society reject me.
So yeah, it's really a problem that comes from the religious establishment rather thanindividuals who are trying to be contrarians is what I'm getting at.
(24:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Do you want to talk about your sexuality too?
I mean, sure.
I mean, it only added complexity, further complexity to my personal experience because assomeone who does not fit the mold in a very conservative and very rigid social construct
(24:37):
like the Middle Eastern society or the Muslim society more specifically.
Yeah, it's really...
It's really difficult to be different in those places.
And at that period of that time in my life, it wasn't a priority for me because I had tosurvive first to be able to think about those things or consider sexual orientation.
(25:14):
But yeah, mean, it didn't make things easier, I can tell you that.
Absolutely.
For sure, for sure.
I know it's something that we don't want to get into any detail on, but the fact is thatduring the Syrian revolution, there was a very complex relationship between the repressive
(25:37):
Assad regime and on the one hand, people who are demanding very basic rights, and on theother hand, you have a
a minority of very extreme Islamists and the Assad regime has been very well known to havegiven fuel to the Islamist element of this so as to frame themselves as the ones who are
(26:10):
fighting Islamist terror.
And one of the effects that this had is
Certainly in some parts of Syria, in many parts of Syria, a lot more strict Islamic normswere enforced than probably ever before.
(26:35):
We need only to mention the era where ISIS ruled great parts of that region and the kindof draconian rules that they enforce.
Yeah, and I have a deeper comment about...
are necessary at this point because most of our listeners are probably familiar with.
I have a deeper comment about that whole choice they made too.
(27:00):
Because it may sound a little like a conspiracy theory, but I almost think that part ofthe reason that Assad released all the Islamists and jihadis was because when ISIS is
showing up and is showing and is very openly expressing ambitions to conquer literally theentire world,
(27:25):
and inspire terrorist attacks in the West.
It meant that they'd get the US and the rest of the NATO air forces dropping bombs ontheir enemies, which is their first advantage to doing it.
And if Russia was involved in that decision at all, almost makes me think that they werehoping to undermine the West by causing refugee flows and
(27:51):
Considering that Belarus first bet just Belarus and then right both Russia and Belarusstarted actively bringing refugees to the EU border and Try and push them over it.
They're probably trying to cause trouble cause a bunch of strife.
Maybe even encourage right wingers To the way the right wing is sided with Russia it'shelped Russia that way and I can't prove any of this but
(28:17):
There's certainly been a lot of speculation that part of Russia's reason for invadingUkraine wasn't they wanted to increase their Slavic population.
They haven't even taken ethnicity of newborn babies into account in 30 years.
No one knows exactly what the ethnic break makeup of Russia is these days.
There's significant reason to believe that non Ruskies have been having more kids thanRuskies and the Ruskies leave Russia at higher rates.
(28:46):
It's almost like that they wanted to cause a refugee flow of Middle Easterners just sothat what they're suffering happens to the EU as well.
And this is all assuming that that ethno-nationalism is a big motivation in Russianpolicy.
It's hard to really be sure.
(29:07):
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a lot to say about the relationship between the Kremlinand far-right elements, both in Germany and wider Europe and the United States as well.
We all know that the Kremlin interfered in the 2016 presidential election to get DonaldTrump elected, for example.
(29:33):
they're all convinced that was completely made up now.
That it's all propaganda.
Of course they are.
Yeah, me and my buddy Putin, we've been through a lot together.
So don't you say a bad word about him, Zelensky.
You remember that?
Yeah, that fiasco at the White House.
(29:56):
Anyway, we could go on for hours, really, talking about the relationship between Trump andPutin and just the bizarre nature of those...
even the way that those things are denied to betray so much about the deep relationshipthat they have with each other.
(30:19):
But this isn't the topic for
It's so much easier to tell these things when one of the participants clearly has somesort of dementia.
Yes, any case, mean, it isn't the topic for today's episode, even though we will circleback to Donald Trump and the situation with refugees and migrants in the United States,
(30:44):
because it is very relevant to this as well.
But going back to Anas's story, Anas, struggled a lot in Syria, you've been through a lot.
And there are certain things that we're just not going to mention in today's recording.
(31:06):
But at a certain point, you're able to safely arrive in Egypt.
But yeah, at that point, of course, you're a Syrian refugee.
You don't have the same rights as an Egyptian.
And life was kind of difficult.
(31:28):
Can you...
can you expound on your experience there and especially living there as an ex-Muslim, as aSyrian refugee who as far as I understand isn't legally allowed to work, as a person, as a
(31:53):
queer person who...
This community has also been targeted by Egyptian authorities very systematically.
Tell us about the time that you spent in Egypt.
How long was it and how was it for you?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I was in Egypt for seven years.
(32:13):
I mean, to be honest, being a Syrian refugee in Egypt is much, much better than being anex-Muslim in Egypt or an LGBTQ member in Egypt.
So all the issues that I had, mean, most of them, especially in the
(32:36):
better part of the period of time that I spent in Egypt were because I did not belongagain to this conservative society as in being an ex-Muslim and an LGBTQ member.
(32:56):
Because the Egyptian society is very similar to the Syrian society.
I mean,
They used to be one country at some point.
so, yeah, so the struggle was the same, to be honest, minus the war part of it.
(33:21):
Yeah.
In the beginning, as someone who just got out of a war-torn country, I was actually happythat I got out and I was...
I was really glad that the situation in Egypt was the way it was because at that time, youknow, everything was easy.
(33:46):
There wasn't large numbers of refugees in general in Egypt or Syrian refugeesspecifically.
So there wasn't much discrimination against refugees in Egypt.
But as the years went on and as the economical collapse of Egypt started to take place, ofcourse, refugees being one of the most or the first things to blame in any country that
(34:19):
faces or goes through any type of financial struggle, things started to get worse.
And in my...
situation or in my personal experience being an ex-Muslim, I mean the Egyptian people arevery religious.
(34:40):
like saying or doing anything that doesn't fit the narrative to them is really frownedupon and yeah like things like drinking in the street or drinking in public during Ramadan
or again doing anything.
(35:03):
No, no, I'm talking about like drinking water.
Even if you are a Christian, for example, like it's again, Islam is so rigid.
It can't bend, it only breaks.
And actually I think that's why there are, at least in my experience,
(35:25):
much more ex-Muslims than ex-Christians because Islam doesn't really like it doesn't allowyou to function within its boundaries without being strictly following all the ethics or
like the the moral compass of of God or Islam like you can't you either do it all or notdo it at all so anyway yeah
(35:54):
In the last 3 to 4 years after 2020 things really got bad in Egypt for everyone.
For refugees, of course, more specifically for Syrian refugees, even more specifically forex-Muslim LGBTQ member Syrian refugees, it was very dire.
(36:16):
I was very limited in the things that I can express, say, do.
I lost my ability to work a decent job.
I was really
Can you expand on what you just said, losing your ability to work in these?
(36:39):
with with with Yeah, yeah, it was a law that basically said that I mean it was alwaysthere that law it's just that it got enforced then Which is basically that you need to
have a work permit to work which someone as a Refugee you don't have so Yeah, I mean and
(37:07):
Having or getting a work visa is near impossible.
So you're basically in limbo and
How are refugees expected to...
I have no idea to be honest.
No, I have no idea like that's why that's why Like they you find refugees forced to work,you know either dangerous or low-paying jobs or jobs that no one else would work Because
(37:38):
they are forced into this type of modern slavery like I couldn't apply like I couldn'tutilize or leverage my
knowledge in engineering or other skills that I have and apply for a decent job at adecent company because I could not do that legally and of course no company would
(37:59):
jeopardize itself from a legal standpoint to employ me.
So I was forced to work the jobs that no one will work for very little pay.
So
protections like like
absolutely.
No protections, no benefits, everything I pay out of pocket.
(38:19):
It's difficult.
I mean, was...
No one was harming me.
No one was knocking on my door.
Yeah, sure.
But I was...
I was a prisoner.
That's the thing.
I was a prisoner in my own house, in my own, you know, mind.
(38:42):
I couldn't express anything, I couldn't behave in the way that I would like to presentmyself as.
So, yeah, I mean, it was a lot of internal struggles and externally I just had to keepwearing the mask, the same mask that I wore in Syria because again, those two societies
(39:05):
are really similar with key differences, of course.
And so, yeah, I...
Basically, I was in the same situation.
Therefore, I was looking to get out of there as the same way I was looking to get out ofSyria.
Sure, sure.
mean, at first glance it might not seem as much of a big deal to say that you had to hideyour religious beliefs in your workplace and things like that.
(39:36):
mean, how often do those topics even come up in a civilized
No, yeah, I mean they don't come they don't
Of course, you're not constantly being asked about your religious beliefs and things likethat.
But to clarify a little bit about the social constraints that we have in a lot of MiddleEastern countries, it's not just that.
(40:06):
It's also there are daily and yearly and cyclical religious practices that you're expectedto...
participate in otherwise you can be excluded from wider societal participation.
(40:27):
yeah, so for example if you're working during Ramadan, you're expected to fast, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, not only like it's you are expected to pray and you are questioned if you are notgoing to the mosque during the day, you are expected to fast and I mean if
(40:50):
And does that have concrete employment?
I sure, I was fired for drinking water during Ramadan, which is something that is absurdand like it's a badly written comedic story if anyone from the Western world would hear
(41:13):
about it.
But I mean that's the reality of living in these societies.
That's what I mean when I say I was in a prison.
There was...
a set of rules that I needed to follow whether I believed in or not and the option for notbelieving in those rules wasn't even there so it's like a pretend game but a very cruel
(41:40):
one
Of course, of course.
mean, yeah, it's an incident that really shocked me.
as a person who comes from Saudi Arabia, mean, know, Benjamin texted me or told me inconversation at one point that you were fired for drinking water during your job.
(42:04):
I mean, was just completely perplexed by that.
I mean, and I also
feel like it has something to do with status and intersectional, multilayereddiscrimination that people face in such contexts.
mean, maybe if you are a Saudi Arabian man from a wealthy family working a prestigious joband you're drinking water during the job,
(42:35):
Nobody's going to ask questions.
And even if somebody does ask questions, can find an excuse, right?
I'm sick, whatever.
I'm on my period.
Whatever you like, just find an excuse.
do you think, yeah, mean, that this is a wider issue?
(43:01):
mean, maybe if you weren't a Syrian refugee, that's...
something like that, like this kind of audacity, nobody would dare have this kind ofaudacity there, mean...
can't come up with any kind of excuse in such a situation.
being a refugee and working a low level job and working with uneducated, mostly illiteratepeople yeah, I mean that plays a big role in it and it's much much complicated and nuanced
(43:41):
than just drinking water during Ramadan but that's...
And Benjamin, this is one of the many incidents that raise your attention to Anas'situation and drove you to invest in his welfare and try to sponsor him.
(44:05):
I would like to go back to your side of the story and from the beginning of thefundraising efforts, what you had in mind in terms of...
sponsoring him as I understand at the beginning who were looking to get him sponsored toCanada through some other groups maybe.
(44:28):
So yeah, not too long after that incident, we found out that Welcome Core was being made,that Welcome Core and Peace Core both end in core.
Absolutely not a coincidence.
A lot of the people founding it were in Peace Core.
(44:49):
I actually met one of the people who has been helping us with lot of logistical stuff in atalk about Peace Corps, an online talk about Peace Corps Georgia, where I just mentioned
that I was in a different country and mentioned that I was hoping to sponsor a refugee andsome, and somebody involved in that program contacted me and we're still in touch.
(45:11):
And contacted friends I knew one if I had moved about it about a year before that one ofmy friends from Peace Corps is in the city I'd lived in before and looked into sponsoring
him but What just made the most sense was moving back to my home state where I have a fewfamily members who were happy to be in the sponsorship group to You need to have five
(45:32):
people five or more people in the sponsorship group Just like the Canadian privatesponsorship
citizens are permanent residents.
So we were able to get a group, it was actually a group of seven and then one had to moveto another state.
All near where I grew up, so I just moved home and ran the sponsor in.
(45:57):
Little after we finished the recording, I'm going to be picking up my family members fromthe airport.
So we were able to, so right after, welcome core.
Cora's option to sponsor someone you know became a possibility.
We were able to fill out the paperwork and get it started.
Do you want to talk about your end of that process?
(46:19):
Yes.
Well, to be honest, I was getting really desperate and I was losing hope.
Actually in 2023, I was struggling a lot with mental health and I went into a very dark,depressive episode that lasted multiple months.
(46:41):
So the reason for that was that we weren't getting anywhere.
I wasn't getting anywhere, meaning I didn't have
or couldn't build a plan to get out of Egypt in the first four or five years I was thereand it was getting to me it was really making me feel hopeless so when Welcome Core came
(47:10):
out of like came into existence or existence or it gave me hope
And to be honest, I was very doubtful of the whole thing because, you know, the US isn'tfamous for programs like Qualcomm Corp.
(47:32):
So, but yeah, I mean, it took them a year to start phase two, which is like when you canselect or name the refugee or refugees that you want to sponsor.
And we went through the process and we were extremely lucky to have it done in less than ayear and, you know, being able to arrive here just two weeks before everything went down.
(48:13):
Yeah.
I mean, it was a completely nerve wracking experience even.
It was.
It didn't help that I had multiple skeletal problems at the same time.
I I wasn't as directly involved as Benjamin and his wonderful family, but I mean, it wascompletely nerve-wracking, the incidents and the problems that Amos was facing around the
(48:39):
end of his time in Egypt.
Like I said, there were certain things that we're just not going to get into, but acomplete relief as...
things finally started to look positive there.
You can look at our Facebook page or Instagram and check out our latest uploaded video ofus coming to the airport and finally being greeted by Benjamin and his family and really
(49:20):
it's brought tears to my eyes.
It was such an amazing experience.
you know, the feeling of, you know, the idea that you can really bring such a profoundchange through this kind of effort.
(49:45):
And of course, this all happened around the exact same time when the Assad regime wasfalling and
And Anas had his interview with the US State Department just a few days before Assad fledSyria.
(50:13):
Which...
Yeah.
raised questions about, you know, whether this is going to have an effect on the decision.
And it actually worse than that sounds.
The interview specifically focused about the risk of being conscripted, which was actuallya minor part of Anas's refugee case.
It was mostly about being non-religious and gay.
(50:38):
And then after how many hours of being asked about being conscripted, all of a sudden,Assad leaves, military dissolves, no possible way.
Yeah, it was really...
It was really like a weird coincidence, I would say.
(51:00):
I certainly did not expect that to happen.
I mean, the interview itself, the focus on being conscripted into the Assad army...
That being the main focus point in my case was really, really weird.
But again, I mean, the US government works in mysterious ways.
(51:24):
And no most sounds like just putting him an edge was the point to me
Yeah, I mean I answered the questions I was asked I I did what they wanted and I wentthrough the process just that as they they want so I I didn't really have any anything to
be fearful of other than being you know, the the case manager or the the USCIS officerjust focusing on the on this aspect of my case knowing that
(51:57):
this is the least important aspect of it.
But no, no, seems that all was either like a mind game, he was playing with me to see ifI'll crack or something, or that it was something that he just needed to do like a
protocol or something.
I have no idea to be honest.
(52:18):
But yeah, after, I mean, I did not know that, I did not have that peace of mind untilafter like,
two weeks.
So I had to spend like a week and a half after the Assad regime fell, not knowing that Iwas approved by that USCIS officer, although the main reason or the main thing that I was
(52:46):
questioned about no longer exists.
One of the main things that we like to talk about on this podcast is the nuance thatdifferent refugee cases have, that individual cases and individual grounds for persecution
(53:12):
be it for the ex-Muslim being LGBT and so on.
They can vary and they can be very nuanced and you can have countries that are generallysafe or not, particularly dangerous for most of their populations, but people from certain
(53:35):
identities are very much in danger.
I mean, you can take a look at Malaysia, which a lot of...
like in a lot of contexts is considered to be a say, country of origin, which, you know,within a certain context is true, but, you know, if you've listened to our episode about
(54:01):
Malaysian ex-Muslims, you will see that there are also struggles that individuals havethat are quite nuanced and, yeah.
and maybe don't directly connect to something that affects everyone.
(54:25):
And this is generally the case for subsidiary protection, which is legally a little bitdifferent from the right to asylum, which, yeah, there are legal details that we don't
have to get into right now.
But the fact is just because, for example, Syria right now is no longer
(54:45):
Assad regime and this issue of conscription isn't as much of a concern, right?
You still have a lot of very genuine worries that religious minorities have.
Yeah, most importantly, know, whether we're talking about Alawites or, you know, orChristians or even ex-Muslims.
(55:14):
Right.
So I think internationally, is a very big issue that a lot of countries, maybe they don'thave enough resources, maybe they're lazy, maybe they're just not looking into the nuance
of it and just looking, oh, what is our general impression of this country?
(55:39):
And yeah, the fact that I was granted asylum at...
at a time, the aftermath of the Khashoggi incident that carries some weight.
There are people from Saudi Arabia who have much more compelling cases in all honesty thataren't seen in the same way because there is this general perception of the general region
(56:02):
that doesn't take into consideration the nuances of individual stories.
And I think this is a big problem internationally.
And the fact that despite all of that, and after that, this decision was made about Anas'scase and he was actually able to relocate to the United States.
(56:30):
Yeah, it's amazing.
It's wonderful.
And I wish we could see more of that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, and I mean if any of our listeners would like to do it, you might not be able tosponsor someone now, but if you get all your, if you preemptively get all your t's
crossed, while you can't for the sake of the, for dot your i's, well if you haveeverything planned out and start putting money aside now, there's a very good chance that
(57:04):
the next president will be a democrat and
that the people who got Welcome Core made last time will do it again.
And if it's only open for a year again, well, if you're ready, as soon as it's open andcan sponsor someone, make a huge difference in their life.
Absolutely.
(57:25):
Absolutely.
we're not just talking about the United States.
I mean, we have a global audience here, right?
We have a lot of people from Russia, from Ukraine, from Saudi Arabia, from Malaysia, fromIndonesia, from Germany, from across the United States, listening to us, from Canada, And
(57:48):
I mean, Canada, for example, does still have...
the private sponsorship program.
Yeah, I my small problem with that though.
Yeah, there's there's someone else we know who has been waiting for who?
Got got all the paperwork then.
Got accepted literally years ago and he's still waiting because something with theirquotas, apparently Trudeau let a whole bunch of people in.
(58:15):
So now the people are waiting on private sponsorship are still stuck and that guy is inNepal where you.
But after your visa runs out, have to pay an $8 a day fine, which sure adds up fast for arefugee.
I ended up sending $1,000 to deal with that, and it's still...
$8 a day is still adding up for him, so...
(58:36):
yeah.
Yeah, I mean, there are many different ways that people can be helped getting out of badand dangerous situations, right?
Benjamin just mentioned giving a thousand dollars of his own private money for, yeah, tohelp.
(59:06):
refugee across the world again.
There are lot of examples of this, and I'm not just talking about Ben, but there are a lotof private individuals doing a lot and putting a lot in this kind of effort, even though
the welcome court has been discontinued in the United States, which actually I would liketo go into this a little bit because
(59:36):
Because right-wing politicians are often demonizing illegal migrants or irregular migrantswho lack protections, who are very much exploited.
And a lot of the time, the economies of those countries in some way rely on them.
(01:00:03):
American agriculture, for example, takes a lot of irregular migrants because they don'thave the same standards and can be more easily exploited.
And in addition to that, a lot of these these migrants are also coming from a backgroundwhere working in the field by hand for 10 hours, they do it anyway.
(01:00:35):
They can come and do it here.
It paid better than doing it at home.
Sure, sure.
mean, it's one of the many things that simplistic fanatical right-wing politics does best,which is just reduce very complex societal problems to, yeah, we have too much foreigners,
(01:01:03):
we have illegal migrants, they commit crimes, they need to all go away kind of thing.
And the fact is, irregular migration is a serious problem, both in the United States andin Europe.
We have a dysfunctional system that is empowering human traffickers, who are also verymuch exploiting and abusing refugees all the time.
(01:01:38):
We have a system that empowers this kind of behavior.
To go back to a meeting that I was in recently with a Moroccan woman who was in seriousdanger, who also was pregnant as to be in such serious danger by multiple European
(01:02:02):
governments, but...
A lot of the time they don't really have the mechanism to provide safe passage to peoplethat they know are in need of protection and potentially are also capable of being a great
contribution to the society.
like, no, you just come to our borders and then you can apply for asylum.
(01:02:26):
How are you going to do that?
Of course you're going to do that through human traffickers.
The fact that we don't have effective systems of safe passage for those who truly need it,this very much empowers global human trafficking.
(01:02:51):
And look, mean, when people need something as much as they need safety from war and frompersecution,
There's no amount of laws and there's no amount of regulation and border control that isgoing to stop them from leaving the dangerous situation that they are in.
(01:03:13):
It's only going to lead to the human trafficking market being concentrated in the hands ofpeople who have enough power to bypass those laws.
charge more money and exploit refugees more.
(01:03:34):
And they're the ones who win in the end.
And for this reason, think it's incredibly stupid and incredibly irresponsible, not justfor Donald Trump, but also the emergent German government right now.
(01:03:59):
which is considerably more right-wing than the previous one, they come on the stage with amessage of, have a problem with illegal migration, we're not in control of it, there's a
(01:04:21):
dominance of human trafficking rings and so on.
And of course, there are...
there are bureaucratic dysfunctionalities that make it so that a lot of refugees are leftin limbo, so that they can't provide for themselves and they can't live a normal life and
(01:04:41):
might succumb to addiction and a lot of other problems.
And through this kind of messaging and effort curtail safe ways of passage.
for legal and regular documented migration of people who were vetted, who were checked,who we know pose no ostensible danger, that we know a lot of the time in large part share
(01:05:24):
our values.
People who
are in genuine need of protection people like Anas here who Yeah, I mean Benjamin hasknown him for a long time he and his family are willing to support him He is getting
integrated into American society At such a such a fast pace that really Like something
(01:05:57):
you would never expect in Europe because unfortunately we do have an issue with irregularmigration which please do not misunderstand this as giving any credence to the xenophobic
far-right parties that are trying to blame everything on foreigners.
(01:06:24):
I'm talking about a systemic problem of integration and migration that we need to get ontop of.
We need to provide safe and legal pathways for refugees to relocate.
what Donald Trump is doing is completely counterproductive to long-term
(01:06:53):
long-term prosperity and safety and migration that is accounted for in a reasonablemanner.
Yeah, and on top of that, there's something particular about this.
The way the Trump administration puts countries on blacklists, I mean, even if you acceptthe premise that there's an inherent danger of having Muslims come over, which certainly
(01:07:28):
it's not that simple, they block out entire countries.
Not letting anyone from certain countries come over that smells like ethno-nationalistmotivations, not like any sort of security motivations.
And on some level, yeah, Yazidis should definitely be treated different from Muslims inthe refugee system.
(01:07:51):
They've experienced 22 genocides at the hands of Muslims.
I'd say there's a strong argument to be made that we should just let the entire, all halfmillion Yazidis in the world
all move to one place.
They don't seek converts, which is kind of the root of religious violence in general.
They will not in any way be a threat.
(01:08:13):
And so many people voted for Trump talking about religious persecution, and now he'slocking out all Syrians, including Syrian Christians.
And funnily enough, they did talk about letting white South Africans come to the U.S.
and well, my least favorite immigrant is a white South African.
(01:08:35):
yeah, I completely understand.
And I agree with your sentiment completely, even though I'm not in the United States.
But this specific immigrant that you're talking about has completely wreaked havoc onGerman politics as well.
yeah, I'm also involved in like advocating right now for having this individual bannedfrom entering Germany.
(01:09:05):
And I hope people in the UK and people in Austria are also, I mean, some people areworking on it, but I hope it really goes through.
know, somebody openly displaying Nazi symbolism, relativizing the Holocaust in front ofthe German parliament, supporting far-right neo-Nazi parties.
(01:09:33):
really has no place here.
And Germans, of course, are also becoming increasingly aware of this.
A majority of Germans are now against the idea of supporting Elon Musk's businesses orbuying a Tesla, even though Tesla has seen quite a substantial growth in
(01:10:03):
in past years in Germany, but now it's plummeting in a way that should be expected,considering his completely antisocial behavior and behavior that's destructive to
international peace and politics.
(01:10:27):
Yeah, and I mean, on some level, yes, if we have a constant flow of Muslim immigrants andthen they get they have a higher birth rate than their population.
Yes, that that is how you get demographic changes.
The Catholic population in the US is here from the same process.
(01:10:48):
And, you know, that's part of my family history.
I never and I.
And I will never can never fathom why there's so many Catholics I know who are upset aboutCatholic immigrants, know, Hispanics coming to the US.
It's kind of funny.
I mean, the second most like the party with the second most involvement from people withforeign backgrounds does happen to be the AFD, which if you don't know is the neo-Nazi
(01:11:22):
party in Germany.
yeah, mean, actually, it is quite a phenomenon that we see that, you old migrants are
complaining about new ones and it's like, I want to close the door behind me because iftoo many people come after me, then I'm going to be grouped into the same category and
(01:11:45):
problems that they're causing might cause me to be expelled or that kind of thing.
I met a Russian immigrant to Germany in my travels.
We were in Sri Lanka.
Who was talking about how Arab and Turkish immigrants should make an effort to integrate.
(01:12:10):
So yeah.
And I mean, yeah, on some level, people of a wildly different religion may have differentpractices.
And certainly we're talking about the problems with Muslims being upset about people whodon't follow exactly their beliefs.
And yeah, there's a little bit of that among Muslim migrants.
(01:12:33):
You did mention a little bit ago the support that you've been providing to other refugeesacross the world.
And this is, of course, in addition to investments that both I and Benjamin have beenmaking towards this podcast.
(01:12:57):
I mean, the equipment, the software that we use, the time,
that we spend in editing and producing those shows.
It's very significant, right?
And as you probably know, this isn't bringing any money to us.
(01:13:23):
It's basically a project that costs a lot of money at this point.
And it is one of the reasons why, despite the fact that around the beginning of thisproject, we were aiming for one episode every two weeks to be released.
(01:13:47):
Right now, as of the time of the recording, it is the 19th of March, and the last episodethat we released was in the beginning of January.
So obviously we're not holding
to the goal that we set ourselves at the beginning.
(01:14:07):
Quite honestly, I don't think it's feasible with the resources that we have at the moment,both in terms of time and money.
Yeah, I'm about to go back to 60-hour work weeks.
Yeah, on top of the financial investments that are being made, both I and Ben workmultiple jobs.
(01:14:33):
So finding time to really work on this, which is really close to our hearts, ispractically very, very difficult.
Also, obviously we're not rich people, right?
I mean, the financial investments that we have to make also are difficult sometimes.
(01:14:55):
And for those reasons, we thought this would be a very good opportunity to present ourcase to you, dear listeners, to financially support this project.
So if you subscribe to our Patreon or donate to us on PayPal, the revenue will be split.
(01:15:21):
So 50 % of the revenue will be used to reinvest in this podcast and invest in equipmentsoftware and so on so that we don't have to pay so much out of our own pockets.
If it comes to such a point where that is feasible, maybe.
Maybe we can use those resources to buy ourselves more time to work on this.
(01:15:46):
And the other half of what we hopefully will receive from you is going to be invested inhelping refugees, other refugees further follow their dreams and try to get to safety and
start a life of dignity.
(01:16:09):
So, so yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so for the time being, half we set aside for podcast expenses, other half for eitherfuture sponsorships or helping on us or his family.
If we get enough, we might actually split.
(01:16:31):
I might buy a house and maybe use it to get a mother-in-law suite in the back for futuresponsorships if Welcome Court comes back and that looks likely.
One of the rules is that the refugee cannot live with the sponsors unless they're family.
Apparently that's because some of the people sponsoring Ukrainians were saying, I'llsponsor you if you work with me or were creepy men hoping to get a wife out of the deal.
(01:17:02):
So that was put in.
So if that reasonable, if I have a mother-in-law unit behind my house or one of the otherpeople are sponsorship groups houses, we can.
put it on Airbnb when we're not sponsoring someone and put money aside.
And then we have a place for refugee.
We're sponsoring to live that is separate from us.
(01:17:22):
They have their own space and it will allow us to sponsor them without legal difficultiesand just really cuts down on the expenses and the whole deal.
So I don't know if we'll be able to raise enough for a mortgage payment for a mother inlaw suite, but if it goes that well, that is great.
(01:17:42):
Let us start with baby steps and just make sure that the costs that are already tied tothis podcast are covered without me or you having to pay out of our own pockets.
And hopefully that we're able to help refugees in some capacity.
(01:18:07):
And then we will see if...
Yeah, if there is some potential for growth to do even more things, then that would bevery much welcome and every cent would be put to good use.
Benjamin, if I may ask you, I don't think I even know the figure I haven't asked youbefore.
(01:18:30):
Within this whole endeavor of sponsoring Anas, how much did it cost you personally?
Now that you mention it, I think the minimum to have an account in an account set asidefor him was 2600 or so, right?
(01:18:53):
$2,550 I think per individual.
So if you are sponsoring more than one refugee, you can multiply that number.
It's not even a multiplication since since the rent is less.
It's there's a whole formula.
It's on the welcome car page.
If you can even still get to it, I don't think you can.
But yeah, but I had four thousand dollars set aside for him.
(01:19:17):
Right now, I think three thousand five hundred still there.
One of our friends is hosting him for rent free, so that's helping out.
One of my family members have been helping with food.
He's also getting food stamps.
(01:19:37):
So it's it's it's been within the within the price range of of a normal person all aroundsince we were able to avoid paying for rent in this time.
And.
(01:19:57):
So yeah, and I've still been supporting his family since he got here and before he leftthat wasn't even included in that.
Came out to about $400 a month after he was banned from working.
I think it was $200 month when he was still working after the war in Ukraine started andall of a sudden life in Egypt got a whole lot more expensive.
And Sudanese refugees are pushing up the cost of housing too or landlords are sayingSudanese refugees are putting up, pushing up the cost of housing as the case may be.
(01:20:28):
And obviously an average American worker is not going to be able to cover these kinds ofexpenses on the long term.
especially if we want to scale it up, it's just not going to be feasible.
We really, really want to be able to stick to a schedule where we are able to release oneepisode every two weeks.
(01:20:57):
Maybe, aspirationally, the beginning, every month at least, bring to you more of thosestories, help more people and so on.
So, yeah, consider making a one-time donation to PayPal or a regular donation to Patreonso that we would have a secured source of funds to further these projects.
(01:21:28):
We would really appreciate any support if you made it this far into the podcast.
hope you've comprehended and are able to really appreciate this project.
And we look forward to your participation.
(01:21:50):
right.
And if somebody doesn't have money but does have time and would like to edit for us, thatwould be amazing too.
Alright, yeah, our contact information is always in our description, as of now, our PayPaland our Patreon as well.
(01:22:12):
Benjamin, Anas, any closing words before we wrap this up?
I'm gonna close with saying that it's really like having such a substantial positiveeffect on someone else's life is I think something one can only do
(01:22:47):
one time in their lives.
Like I really cannot express how grateful and how thankful I am for Benjamin and all ofthe sponsors that participated in my sponsorship.
(01:23:09):
But at the same time, I'm eager to be in a position where I'll be able to help
other people that are in the situation I was in.
having because having that impact on someone else's life is real something really worthworking towards.
(01:23:30):
And if there is anything that would give me and people like me hope in a better future forus as a society, as humans is people like Benjamin.
Who are getting out of their way to to make a meaningful?
(01:23:51):
difference in other people's in other people's lives, sorry, so yeah, I Encourage everyoneto Participate whether financially or even by looking into how to sponsor someone or a
refugee in their country It's an amazing experience.
(01:24:13):
It's
It's something...
It's a privilege to be honest, to be able to help someone in such way.
Anas, was truly an honor to have you on the podcast and I know this was not easy for you.
(01:24:33):
I mean, you have been through a lot and on the one hand, of course, we don't want tore-traumatize you.
On the other hand, we also want to bring the message out there.
the fact that you showed yourself willing to come on and talk about your story.
(01:24:54):
We really immensely appreciate that.
Thank you so much for being with us.
you for having me.
Benjamin, are there any last words that you would like to leave our audience with beforewe finish this episode?
Just hope other people are interested in helping refugees and hope more people talkingabout the whole migration situation look into how policies they may or may not support are
(01:25:30):
making it worse.
guess the biggest is how many anti-gun people, or very pro-gun people, scream aboutmigrants at the border and don't realize that at least possibly significant.
Definitely more 70 % of guns used by Mexican drug cartels come out of the US and you know,and how a lot of the current policies incentivize people to use human smugglers.
(01:26:01):
And hopefully some of our listeners would like to sponsor a refugee like on us in thefuture if that is an opportunity they'll ever have.
Thank you guys so much again.
Thank you, Ben.
Yeah, I mean, just from one human being to another, I really appreciate the efforts thatyou've been making in helping people and I aspire to maybe one day be as altruistic as you
(01:26:34):
are.
Maybe that's not going to be necessary.
hopefully we can do more.
this product.
So alright everyone, take care, yeah have a wonderful day, have a wonderful evening, staysafe.
And until next time, bye.
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