Dr. Ian Dunbar - With Dogs, Increasing the Good, Decreases the Bad - S1 E9

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When Dr. Ian Dunbar talks about dogs, it's impossible not to sit up and listen. His latest work, "Barking Up the Right Tree," is more than a book; it's a manifesto for compassionate canine companionship that promises to redefine our relationships with our four-legged friends. 

Tales of cows with personality and horses with heart remind us that the principles of positive reinforcement extend far beyond the backyard. Through personal anecdotes, like the transformation of an uncatchable horse named Pudding, we discover the patience and kindness necessary to train animals in a way that speaks to their nature, not against it. 

As we wrap up our time with Dr. Dunbar, we explore the revival of a classic puppy training program and the universal principles that apply not just to animal training, but to all aspects of life. The commitment to bettering the lives of pets—and by extension, their owners—is palpable, and the joy found in a well-behaved companion animal is a testament to the power of empathy and education. 

MORE INFO HERE - 
https://www.dunbaracademy.com/
Podcast Link -https://www.dogstardaily.com/radio
https://www.facebook.com/doctoriandunbar, https://www.youtube.com/@DunbarAcademy, https://www.instagram.com/dunbaracademy/

https://www.empathetic-trainer.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer and I'd like to
welcome you to the empathetictrainer.
Welcome, dr Ian Dunbar.
Welcome to the empathetictrainer.
We are so grateful that you'regoing to take the time with us
today.
I think from reading your bookthe new book that's coming out,

(00:38):
barking up the right tree, whicheverybody who loves dogs and
pretty much any animal should goout and get, because dogs are
going to be better for it.
I mean, if people take the timethey read your book, understand
the concepts, if they're notalready doing some of these
things, it's only going toimprove your dog's life, which,
of course, will improve yourlife.
So dogs are going to be betterfor it and we want to thank you

(01:02):
for doing this for the dogs inthe world.
I learned about you maybe 20,maybe 10 or 15 years ago through
Denise Nord, who has beagles.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, lovely, totally beagles.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, and she actually trains beagles, which
we bow down because beagles havean.
Of course I'm being biased, butbeagles are beagles and they do
what beagles do and payingattention to humans and
listening to commands notnecessarily what beagles want to
do.
So she was amazing.
And I started out with dogs 50years ago now.

(01:39):
Yeah, and that was waydifferent, as you recall choke
chains, adversion, you know, bethe boss and I never felt right.
And when I watched somebodyhang a dog up to choke off his
air, I was like this, becausetwo dogs are fighting and they
hung the dog up, how is he goingto learn from that?

(01:59):
I started trying to study andlearn different approaches and
that's when I learned about you,and you are the grandfather of
the methods of training, wherewe do lure training, but not all
completely dependent, where itbecomes a bribe and there's a
fine line.
So did all that off?
my chest because I just was soexcited to have you here.

(02:21):
I'd like to read a quick littleintroduction.
Dr Ian Dunbar is a veterinarian, animal behaviorist, dog
trainer and writer.
He uses a unique off leashtraining technique that involves
lure reward training.
He started the serious puppytraining which was the first off
leash puppy training class.
Ian has written several booksabout dog training and his

(02:42):
newest book is called barking upthe right tree.
So everyone's got a.
I've got an advanced copy ofthe book and read it and marked
it all up.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
And she gets advanced copy.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Jamie sent it to me.
It's just a document you know,I mean, I had to like print 400
pages, something like that.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Jamie got the very first copy ever two days ago and
I thought how come you've got acopy?

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Oh no, I printed it out so I could read it, because
I wanted to.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Well, you know.
I guess you know when you readthe book you'll realize that
this goes back, you know, wellbefore I was born.
I mean to give your listeners,viewers, I guess, history my
great grandfather.
I grew up on a farm and mygreat grandfather was a farm lad

(03:38):
and he worked hard and ended upowning four farms.
Anyway, one year he won astraight line plowing contest
with his horse and no brains, sohe was directing the horse just
by verbal cues and praising it.
So that's what I grew up withand throughout the book I keep
echoing what I learned from mygrandpa and my dad, not just the

(04:03):
way they train their gun dogsand working dogs, but also the
cows, pigs, sheep, chickens.
So when I was five I had tolive at the farm because my dad
fell off the roof and broke hisskull.
I shouldn't laugh at that, buthe lived through it.
He landed on two upturnedbuckets metal buckets and

(04:26):
crushed them with his head.
Oh, saved his life.
So I'm at the farm and they'retrying to entertain me.
So I became, I developed arecall on 80 cows and 200
chickens when I was five.
So I grew up with this way andI was introduced to the on lease

(04:46):
sort of military police modeland later to become the
obedience competition on leash.
Let's do repetitive obediencedrills much later.
And I actually had the samereaction as you did, which is
what on earth are they going tolearn from this?
Because always I ask peoplewhat are you trying to teach?

(05:10):
And has the dog learned it yet?
Yes, well done.
No, then why are you stilldoing this If you already proved
it doesn't work well?
So I always evaluate differenttraining techniques, whether
reward based or aversivepunishment based on do they work

(05:32):
and how well do they work?
Being a behaviorist, I measureit precisely and I come up with
a percentage of response,reliability, percentage of, say
the words sit in any scenario inthe kitchen, before dinner, in
your bedroom, in the living room, in your garden, on the
sidewalk or in the dog park, andI'll say well, your dog's

(05:56):
running at 3% reliability in thedog park.
Don't you want to train it?
And I do that with the rewardtraining techniques too, because
they're nowhere near usingrewards to full advantage.
You know, if you are mentioningbeagles and that actually for a
long time was my favorite breedand in my first book they're all

(06:17):
beagle pictures and socialbehavior, sexual behavior, even
training, which I knew verylittle about.
But if you want to train abeagle you have to.
Just, it's just one exercise.
You train him to come, whichmeans come, sit, stay watch, to
get him to look at you, whichmeans his nose is lifted from

(06:39):
the ground and as a reward yousay go sniff.
But what the beagle doesn'tknow is you've hidden a couple
of really attractive odors, likea bit of cat poop.
So the beagle sniffing overhere, and he's sniffing worms,

(06:59):
you know casts and all that.
I say no, over here, go sniff,go sniff.
And then he goes wow, the ownerknows better than me.
I next time they say come, I'mgoing to come, sit watch and say
tell me, tell me, where are thesniffs.
So the only reward you can usein training obviously is go
sniff.
Nothing else is going to workbecause you're working with the

(07:22):
biggest reward.
So we start from there and thenwe make it even more powerful.
So these are the secrets of thebook how to come up with more
powerful rewards, how to usethem more effectively and how,
when administered by people,aversive punishment simply
doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
No, it's not a quick fix.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
It's neither quick, it's very involved and it's not
a fix as evidence by continueduse.
So we flash back those on leaseclasses and they jerk the dog
hour after hour, week after week, walk after walk.
When are you going to learn?
The dog is not learning fromthis lease correction.

(08:04):
It ain't a correction.
So anyway, that's just to setthe stage for people.
Everyone thinks I'm an academic, which I am.
I'm a behaviorist.
So I observe behavior andthere's no question about it.
I don't ask the questions likewhy did the dog do that?

(08:25):
My wife used to do that.
She's a cognitive psychologistand you'll see in the book she
had tremendous input by askingvery simple questions like have
you taught Omaha to do that?

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Omaha being the dog you refer to, or you must.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
The question is let's say a dog is upset, he's
fearful.
What do you do?
And I say, well, we classicallycondition.
We try and get rid of the fear.
But also we are currentlycondition.
We tell the doctor sit and stay.
Why telling a dog what to dowill really help it deal with

(09:07):
fears.
And Mimi would always dictateyou must always see it from the
dog's point of view and you mustalways consider how the dog is
feeling, although you'll neverknow any more than we do with
people.
I mean a person you know, youmeet behind a counter, who's
serving you, is it's not veryhappy today and maybe rude to

(09:30):
you.
We don't know what they'rethinking.
Maybe their dad died thatmorning.
So we never know what peopleare thinking.
So we never actually know whatdogs are thinking, but we know
what they do and then we canmake an assumption that if they
don't come when called, if theyback off, if they hunker down,
if they're shaking, if theirpaws are sweating, they're

(09:52):
probably stressed.
So as well as training it, whatwe wanted to do, we must
heavily classically condition todeal with the underlying sort
of fear and anxiety problems.
So I was lucky with the peoplearound me all the time you know
farmers.
And then Mimi, cognitivepsychologist.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
No, this is.
This is really true and luckilyfor the horse world and not
sure how familiar you are withI'm sure you are familiar with
horses, but that's changing toall the adverse of punishment
methods and a lot of forcewithout understanding is more
and more people are starting tolearn that, understanding and
having empathy for what thehorse is thinking and feeling

(10:40):
and why is he anxious?
Because he can't learn whenhe's anxious and afraid.
And getting him to learn toregulate himself by learning his
calming, singles, learning howto how our intention and our
emotion affects the horse andthat's it's slowly growing for
the better for horses becauseeverything going slow is going

(11:00):
fast, just like you said, youknow you're able to to work with
the horse so he can regulatehimself, and I'm sure it's.
Then it's going to be similarwith the dogs with anxiety if
you can help them regulate, butit's, it's similar and it's
different according to whetherthe animal is altricle or
precocious.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
So, basically, how long does it take to socialize
the animal?
So with dogs we have a longtime, up to three months.
But the biggest problem in dogsat the moment is no one is
socializing young animals.
They're not handling neonates,they're not introducing them to
100 unfamiliar people in thebreeding camel or 100 unfamiliar

(11:42):
people the first month at home.
We then go back to horses,which are precocious.
You've got 48 hours tosocialize a horse.
Well, there's good news, badnews.
The good news is it takes youno time at all to prevent a good
, any horse fear or anxiety.

(12:02):
The bad news is you've got 48hours to do it and no, if you're
talking about a bit of horsenow, that's, you know, worth six
figures.
No one's going in the stablewhen the mayors fold.
You know the owner and thestable that you know.
You expose it to everything andyou in 20, in 48 hours, and

(12:26):
then that animal.
And of course, oh, not BillMiller.
I went to college with BillMiller, bob Miller.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Robert.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Miller, he's actually on my veterinary ski team.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
And now that's a connection, because he's like,
yeah, the very cartoonist.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
And you know he sort of pioneered this in horses, but
way before that, of course wehave I don't know how to
pronounce this word, it's a bigdifference.
Anyway, it's geese, you know,animals that bond within seconds
of being born or hatched.

(13:07):
So we all know this from ConradLorenz You've got 30 minutes to
socialize and bond with thislittle gozzling.
It's done for life.
The thing will follow youeverywhere, to the car, to the
bathroom, you know, around yourproperty.
So that's a highly precocious,you know, group of animals.
But I find it very sad inhorses and in dogs and horses

(13:32):
are highly precocious, no onedoes it.
I mean flacking white sheets,banging on cans, dropping stuff,
making noise, playing the radio, handling it all over, tapping
on its hoof, you know, andpassing a hood over its head and
passing a stomach tube.
Robert Miller used to do to dothese baby foals.

(13:52):
And then, as a stallion, yousay hello again.
He comes up and says hi andlowers his head saying I'm your
buddy.
Yeah, he's not up here, likeyou know, doing all that.
This is when it's like someonecame up to me once and said I
got a problem with my dog, drDunburn.
I said, oh, what's that?
They says it barks and I said,oh, no, that's, that's terrible.

(14:16):
And all the dogs you could havegot you pick one that barks.
You know, tell the story in mybook.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
But, again.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
how many horses does it take for horsey people to
realize this is born anddesigned to be a flighty animal?

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Exactly they should.
Let me say no, understand whyyou can't.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
You got to take that flightiness out of it as you've
got to take fearfulness out of adog Right, and it will be a
flighty animal, all things beingequal.
If you just let it grow up as ahorse in vacuo, around no
people with horses or what haveyou, then it will get.

(15:01):
Not, it'll get more flighty asit grows older.
This is developmentally verysound in the wild and that
animals, whether, yeah, they areprogrammed to socialize with
who's around them when they'revery young, less than 48 hours
and horses less than threemonths in dogs.

(15:21):
But when they now get away fromthe herd horses or come out of
the den dogs they are programmedto avoid any animal.
That's unfamiliar.
So all we have to do is teachthem we are the familiar ones,
we're all around you with thatfunny and sometimes scary human
ways when you're very young andwe hit it with them then when

(15:44):
they're only minor stress.
So you do get little blips ofcholesterol.
But what you do if you get, ifyou don't do this in adulthood
you get adrenal emptying, surgesof cholesterol, cortisol,
adrenaline to innocuous stimulilike you blew your nose or you

(16:07):
fell down or there's a loudnoise.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
So that's basically the process of early
socialization.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
It's reprogramming the brain of the animal to
develop in a way to now embracepeople and thoroughly enjoy
their company and contact.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
I have a question then is it ever too late in a
sense, with dogs?
Because we saw during COVID,people got dogs.
Great, they were lonely, theygot dogs, but the poor dogs,
because of COVID, didn't getsocialized in the near as much
or in a way that they should.
There's this whole generationthat we run across when people
try to use the dogs as animalactors and we're going to meet

(16:55):
them and evaluate, see if theywant to be a good animal actor
or enjoy it.
The dog cannot handle newpeople, new environment.
Is it too late for those people?
Because they couldn't?
Or, however, COVID made it hardfor people to get together, so
it would be hard to socialize100 people over time.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
It's not too late.
It's just that prevention isdiabolically falling off a log
easy.
Being an adult dog that now hasdeveloped fears and anxieties
is going to take longer.
However, two things taught methat no, we can change even
quicker than I thought.

(17:36):
And COVID in dogs.
I work with a number of dogsduring COVID.
And then, as we opened up thatI would have said you won't be
able to take this dog anywhere.
He's afraid of his own shadow,let alone other people I mean
dogs and other dogs andunfamiliar people or loud noises

(17:57):
.
And it started with one dogcalled Cash and Gina and I were
taking a COVID weekend in LagunaBeach and Cash was hopefully
going to be an assistance dog,but no way.
He came from the breeders upway up north, where you are, but

(18:17):
farther away from any place tobuy milk, and he was just scared
of.
He came down to the Bay Areaand then to San Diego and it was
too much for him Anyway.
So Laguna, gina was sick and soI said you stay in bed, I'll
take Cash out.
So I walked him where it wasquiet.

(18:38):
I sat on the beach head therewas a path there and I sat there
for four hours with his dinnerin a bag and every time a person
walked by I gave him three bitsof kibble.
Every time a person had a dog,I gave him five bits.
I gave him a running commentary, all the time praising him,

(18:59):
reassuring him.
But because I'm reassuring himwhen he's acting scared, I would
praise him more as trainingwent on.
When he's no longer actingscared, I'm still reassured.
You see, people are scared toreassure a scared animal because
they think they'llunintentionally reinforce wimpy

(19:21):
behavior, whereas again, mimiwould say of course you have to
reassure an animal if it'sscared, right?

Speaker 2 (19:28):
right If you had a child that was frightened.
Would you like not reassure achild?

Speaker 1 (19:34):
Then what you would do as soon as the crying stops,
you then go into jolly routineand say, wow, you are so brave.
And so we can classicallycondition and operate the
condition at the same time,which means we're meant to be
getting the dog to associatescary stimuli with food, if you

(19:58):
like, or praise, or petting, butif they're acting scared, to
prevent them from incurring,because a lot of dogs will act
scared because they know theowner will pick them up, hug
them and pet them.
So now we wait until the scaredbehavior stops.
See, they're no longer feelingscared because of the classical

(20:19):
conditioning, and once they stopthe lunging, the barking or the
trembling or the moving away,then we heavily praise them.
And that's the bit that peoplemiss.
It's like getting a puppy tosleep on his own for his first
night.
His new home he's petrified,you've taken him from mum and
his litter mates and so I stayup with them until they fall

(20:44):
asleep, and I've then woken themup half a dozen times.
So once they fall asleep Idon't leave.
I then praise them more, I singto them, I recite nonsense
poetry, I hum, but then I wakethem up.
I say hey, hey, you're notfalling asleep on me, I'm still
up here.
It's 2 AM, I've been up herefor three hours.

(21:05):
And then I say, ok, settle down, go to sleep.
You're falling and I find bythe sixth time I wake them up
they're like what do you want?
I say, oh, you're tired, ok,settle down.
And I make them stand up too.
So it's wake up and stand up.
Then I say settle down, go tosleep, ok.

(21:28):
And so six trials Because Istayed on when the fear had gone
and the praise and thetiredness is taking over the
next day.
Oh, I seldom stay up with them20 minutes and then they lie
down, going to sleep the thirdday.
I can't even remember the lastdoll I did that with.

(21:49):
It seldom happens, so I'm lucky.
You see, I do night work.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
So they've had a pretty stress-free Because.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Gina would get up and do early morning work and so
even when I leave them at, say,1, 2, 3 AM, I just leave the
room they're in and sleep on acouch outside the door so that
if they go, I say it's OK, I'mstill here.
Silly Billy, now settle down,go to sleep.
And if they do, I praise.

(22:17):
See so many people.
They're like a baby putting itto sleep or a puppy, and it's,
they're shh, tiptoe, tiptoe.
I never tiptoe around.
Once they eventually fallasleep, I say you're good boy,
you sleeping now.
Well done, jamie, you know,well done Omaha.
Good, that's right, and theycan hear that.

(22:38):
It's one of my earliestmemories of hearing my parents
sleep, as I was being in theback of the car being driven,
and I could hear the words andthey were so comforting, you
know, but I was still asleep.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yeah, and then we've all experienced that.
So yeah, we must.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
I think this to me is it's all about eliminating the
development of natural fears.
These are naturally programmedin for a horse to be flighty Of
anything, of a lion, a lonerperson, of dogs, to be scared of
unfamiliar people, unfamiliardogs.

(23:16):
You must prevent that, becauseit is so easy, it's so much fun.
You have a party, you know, forhorse this is a 24 hour party
through the night and it's nevergoing to develop this
flightiness if you've got 40 or50 people in the stable and
they're all coming up andpetting it, you know, and maybe

(23:39):
give me a little bottle to suckalong.
And when they excuse me, or forpuppies, hand feeding, loads
and loads and loads of pieces ofkibble not treats, obviously,
because they're so commercialtreats that it would end up with
a liver like a goose.
So you feed its normal kibblebut as classical conditioning

(24:00):
rewards.
And I do it.
I love dogs, yeah, I loveanimals, but I actually do it
for the people.
But excuse me a second, I'mgoing to cough.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Coffee is not the thing for a cough.
I should have had water here,but I get so upset when, I see,
I was just rounding them up.
This morning I got two peoplewith reactive dogs.
I'm on a walking street becauseit's so pretty and we're going
to film them this week beingreactive and then I'll get
together as a group and theywill become a core social group

(24:40):
of dogs that love each other.
That's the process, but stillwarped on leash safety.
But one by one, you know theywould join the group once we've
taken the reactivity out of them, because it's the owners, they.
I mean, how can you enjoy a dogthat's going to go off if it
sees a big dog in the distanceor a little to the happy dog in

(25:03):
the distance?
And you know, with horses it'syou're going to acknowledge you
have a flighty animal, there'sno socialization and you're
going to get on its back.
You are crazy.
No, you are crazy.
It's why I loved it when yousaid you got Morgan.
That's good, yeah, my kind ofhorse, or, you know, walking

(25:26):
horses.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Well, they're not.
You don't fall very far.
Yeah, they're only 14 hands, soI don't have to fall very far.
But no, you're right, andyou're.
I mean obviously this justamazing to hear, hear what you
think about horses, becausethere's different points of view
, and so this is reallyinteresting, because some people
are like you can't.
Well, how can I put it in words?

(25:49):
The imprinting some like that'scontroversial.
The imprinting that Dr Millertalks about, it's controversial,
with some people like whichmakes no sense.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
I'm what you're saying, if I heard someone say
something like that, which, fromall I know about animal
complaints behavior, I considerit as a very stupid, dangerous
and cruel comment.
If I were in a bar now, Iwouldn't talk to this person
until I've convinced them.
Here's the deal In two days youcan prevent most of horses

(26:23):
problems.
What is your objection?
Or would you rather this horsebe flighty, anxious and stressed
for the rest of its lifebecause every day has to meet
its biggest nightmare, which isyou and other humans?
No, I'm being serious.
I'm not to socialize isdownright cruel and it's the

(26:43):
cruelest thing to do to anyanimal and then insist it lives
around humans.
So if we go to like the wholeyears back I used to know the
Porellis and I would often givea little doggy lecture at their
international workshops andcourses and things and I

(27:06):
remember the whole naturalhorsemanship thing and the horse
whispers would always talkabout there's a big distance
between the horses and dogsbecause the horse is prey and
the dog is predator.
I say not when it comes totraining them at all.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
I'm in agreement with you there because the natural
horsemanship thing saying we'rethe alpha and they think we're a
predator, you know he does notthink you're a cougar.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
The horse knows you're human, he knows you're
not a cougar.
That's ridiculous.
So it's moving away from that.
So that constant moving theirfeet, moving their feet, which
means they can't even engagetheir brain because they can't
calm down, that's more like.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
There's a lot of that .
It's hands off and we're goingto train this horse to come and
lie down, go to his stable or goto his horse box, hands off.
But when people how should Iput it?
When professionals get involvedin their species and their

(28:14):
breed or an animal's workingability, they forget the basic
principles of training.
That behavior is changed by itsconsequences and they would
primarily be rewards orpunishments.
And, as you've understood, mybook now, the best type of

(28:35):
punishment, which is not definedby its nature.
You see, people think apunishment is unpleasant or
nasty.
It doesn't have to be, and inabout 60% of the scientific
definitions of punishment itjust says a punishment is a
stimulus, that so punishment isdefined by its effect on

(28:55):
behavior, that the punishmentreduces the frequency of the
previous behavior, the targetedbehavior you want to get rid of,
such that it is less likely tooccur in the future.
And that's how we know that aversus punishment isn't working.
Because they're still doing it.
They're still wearing aspecialized metal collar, or the

(29:18):
horse, the metal bit, or whathave you.
Or the elephant trainer has abill hook.
You know to hook it with.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
Right yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
But what we use is a non-aversive punishment and
people think what?
How can that work?
Well, 9% of the time with dogs,I just say Rover, sit, end of
problem.
What was he doing?
Well, he was lunging on leash.
It's not anymore chasing histail, chasing the cat.
He was running out the frontdoor, he was jumping up, sit.

(29:48):
So if you have taught your dogto sit, just one command you can
now stop, inhibit, eliminateall of those because they're
mutually exclusive.
And so are we going to focus onmisbehaviors and give the dog
grief or the horse grief?
Everyone does that, that'shuman nature.

(30:08):
Are we going to focus on thegood behaviors and say thank you
?
I was watching videos last nightand it was a rotty who was a
little out of control in the offleash puppy too because he
hadn't had much off leashexperience aside from going
through puppy one.
But he's gone through puppy oneso I know his teeth are safe.

(30:28):
If he gets into an argument orhe's scared, it will be, but
there's going to be no puncture.
So I'm doing a lot of work withhim and at one point I start
because he keeps stealing everyother dog's stuffed animals and
at one point he stole the dog'sbed while the dog was lying on
it and ripped it in the air andran off.
You know, I've now found a moremanageable stuffed toy and I'm

(30:51):
playing tug with him.
And then you know off, take it.
Tug, tug, tug, good dog, andthank you.
What to start with?
I say thank you, and he justgrits his teeth and it took
about three to five seconds toget it out of his mouth.
But after a few repetitions Isay off, take it.
Tug, good boy, who's a good boy.
And thank you.

(31:12):
And he sits and I hold the tugup here and he looks at me and
he lies down and he sits up andhe looks at me again.
He's training me.
Now he wants me to say take itagain.
But he's throwing all thesebehaviors at me and everyone he
does.
I say a good boy, that's good.
But no, no, no.
What I actually want now is tosit and stay.

(31:35):
Good dog, there's a good boy,you know.
And we don't pay attention toall the good behaviors, and the
number one good behavior in mybook is one that's not bad.
I remember telling a guy inclass said praise your dog,
praise your dog.
He said why he's not doinganything.
I said precisely we're herebecause he lunges on leash and

(31:57):
growls.
He is not lunging, he's notgrowling, he's not barking, he's
not even eyeballing the otherdog.
He's sitting there looking atyou and you are ignoring him.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
But, and you say right in your book, you say
increasing the good Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
He greases the bad.
It's so obvious.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
And it works with any animal or your children as well
.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
It actually was my son who came up with that
sentence, which crystallizedeverything I was trying to say
in the book.
If you have one command thatthe animal will always do, sit
whoa, you know, lie down.
You have so much control overthat animal now because all
you're left to do is praise therest.

(32:42):
So you know, I usually have thedogs taken a short group time
out from play it's amping up toomuch.
So I say, well, docks down.
And with our dogs we do it witheight dogs, I mean just the two
of us we say, docks down.
Yeah, let's get a grip, shallwe?
Especially you Rover.
Yeah, chill, okay, all right,dogs ready, dogs go play.

(33:07):
Where's a good dog?
Good dog?
Well done, well done, fight, ohgood.
And we praise and praise, andpraise and praise.
So fast, and sometimes I'vegiven six to ten praise words
within the first three secondsand it just.
It's an absolutely wonderfulphilosophy, but it took my son
to crystallize it, you know.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
I mean I could take three hours to say any sentence
because I'm considering all theinnuendos and facets of it and
and trying to answer people'squestions no, jamie, jamie
distilled it for sure, as ananimal actor trainer, I run into
this because we'll use I don'town the dogs I hire, I only have

(33:47):
three of my own, so I have tohire a lot of dogs to come be
animal actors and so they havebasic obedience because to be
comfortable and on set, you knowthey should know sit, stay,
things like that.
But what I find is I do my bestnot to let the owners work with
their dogs.
They can watch, but I want towork their dogs because my
energy and my intention and mypraise, the dogs think this is

(34:09):
the best day ever because I keepyour tone of voice when you say
well done.
That is releasing energy andintention and the dog, as you
know, of course, feels that.
And then, of course, I havetreats that you know that he
likes and I'm it's.
So then they would, they do it.
They won't reward their dog forsitting there looking cute.
I mean that's all he has to do,right, but they're like well,

(34:31):
he's not exactly what you said.
He's not doing anything and I'mlike he is killing it.
He's, he's look at him, he'shappy, he's way, he's looking at
camera, which is where I'mholding my eye line for, you
know, because he's learned towatch my eyes in my hand and I
just like, well done, good boy,you know, and it's uh, and they
go.
You, sometimes they get like,oh, people are watching me.
I feel silly, I'm like the dogdoesn't care.

(34:54):
He needs to hear thatenthusiasm, that excitement,
that like, because then we get ahappy dog.
I don't want to have a dog onset that's not happy, because
it's not fair.
The dog, I wouldn't put himthrough it.
You know, he's got to beacclimated and be happy.
And we get great performancesbecause the dogs are having a
blast.
And you try training a cat andif you try to have negative
emotions around a cat, you are.

(35:15):
There is no, you know, becauseI train cats or work with cats.
It's their idea and they'rehaving a good time and they feel
the same thing.
Good, you know.
Good cat, oh, well done you.
And you can see the cat.
I mean, you know, sit up andput.
You know, yes, I am, and thesame thing with the horse and I
keep going back to it.
But the same thing with a child, you know, reward what you want
yeah, I think the animal actingis.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
It's one of my favorite professions because and
these are things that a lot ofanimal actor want to be owners
don't realize.
Number one your dog has to havea bomb-proof temperament.
He can't be fearful, afraid ofanything, because he's in a very
spooky place.
He's in a film set and allsorts of things happen.

(36:01):
There's unexpected noises and alot of people there.
Number two the precision interms of timing and place.
So the director will tell youwell, I want the dog to walk in
here.
Stop, look around, come up tothis place, hold his paw up and

(36:21):
then lie down and look exhaustedon cue and, and so it's real
precision training, with you outof sight, and then you're
working on all sorts of facial.
What I like to do, what I liketo do, is Suzanne Clothier
taught me this.
We, we had a.
I do a lot in in lectures whereI get people to pretend they're

(36:45):
dogs and other people in classtrain them.
And she was picked to get me topay attention and I and she
knew it I was going to misbehavebig time.
I was going to jump up on her,I was going to hump someone else
in class, you know, and Icouldn't.

(37:05):
The way she trained me and whatshe did was she said are you
watching me, ian, are youwatching me?
Started moving like this and Iwas all mesmerized and I
immediately stole that techniquefor teaching very lengthy stays
when you want the dog to followyour head around.

(37:26):
You know you keep like you're asnake charmer and so it's a
huge thing and it's I mean, it'sthe same as it like assistance
dogs.
It amazes me the dogs thatpeople bring and say, oh, I
wanted to be assistance dog or afacility dog for children or

(37:46):
what have you and you think dogsscared to be just here.
You can't do this because ittakes a lot for your train
commands then to even getthrough to the dog.
But then to the knowledge thatyou spoke.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah, because he has to be comfortable, so it's
wonderful no, and we can't ifyou want to be a good trainer
teach a cat to come and heal.
Yeah, well, it's that's reallytrue, because cats have their
own agenda.
Well, that's where you knowpeople should realize that this
was um, this was I.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
I was slightly at odds when I did my dog workshop
with horses, because I trainedhorses the same way as I train
dogs.
Little reward training when youtrain cats the same way.
Instead of your cat listenersout there, you read my book and
you cross out the word dog orpuppy and put in cat or kitten.
We have always had cats withbetter recalls than the dogs in

(38:47):
our home and the reason is assoon as you get outside, the
cats can come in a straight line.
They just climb over or jumpdown up a tree, take a shortcut.
You know dogs have to go aroundyeah and we used to do this
with demos.
You know, I had a film crew fromJapan once and they said well,
where are your dogs?
I said oh, they're around.
I said dogs, cats come.

(39:09):
And two cats were sitting infront of us before the dogs ever
got there and they didn't thinkthat was they wouldn't film the
cats.
It was like no, we've come hereto film your dogs and I thought
that would be so cool to seethe cats come first and then the
cats are there as the dogsdoing their routines, the cats

(39:30):
are like going under them to geta back rub or rubbing up
against them.
You know, exactly.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yeah, but they are.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
There's a number of speeches, which I love because
you can't do this stupid alphastuff with them.
You do it once and you've lostthe animal and pupil for life.
And when you move up, once youget to the bear stage, like
grizzly bears, I mean how do youthink they train grizzly bears?

(40:01):
We're going to grab him by hisgrizzly bear cheeks and give him
an alpha row and say bad bearno, no, I don't train his
products, but I don't you know,I'll tell you the rewards are
primarily verbal.
Good bear good, but slapping himon the back a marshmallow for a

(40:25):
better behavior and when theyknock it, when they absolutely
get it right a unopened can ofcoke and they catch it and go
and get the biggest sugar rushthey've ever had.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
I mean serious yeah, no, the bear trainer that I did
know, because I don't do hisproducts, I don't hire them
anymore but back when I did, itwas jelly donuts, it was like
squeeze jar of jelly, you know,it was marshmallows, you're
right, and it was a big, a bigbear.
But uh, no, it's different, alittle bit different.
But yeah, there's no one'sgoing to argue with the bear,

(41:03):
you know.
So, no, I get it, I get it.
No, that's cool.
Um, let's talk about otherspecies.
Because, uh, I'm purposely umusing my cow mug today because,
uh, we have a, we, um, I'm adesigner, so this is my cow mug
is broken.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
I'm so upset, you see here and uh oh, here is a big
crack.
This I'm going to put.
I may put the staple in.
Actually I don't want the mudto fall in too.
Actually I had um no crockeryup there.
That's 250 years old and it haslead staples in it where

(41:39):
there's cracks.
That's how they used to mend itback then because it's so soft
and you, yeah, anyway, I'm goingto.
Yeah, my little calf mug is sobeautiful.
Yeah, oh, there's your cow.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
I can see you now.
There she is.
Yeah, um, I uh.
I adore cows.
I um as a photographer.
Um, I've had the pleasure ofshooting cows for advertising
campaigns and um I live in dairycountry.
I mean Wisconsin.
So you know I, I um get the.
I get to go and hang out at the?
Um dairy farms if I want to,and my neighbors raise calves

(42:13):
and of course they suck on yourfingers and that's like the best
, coolest sensation.
But cows uh along like sheepand other herd animals.
People do not give them creditfor how incredibly smart they
are.
And I want to hear about I meanyou talk about in your book
riding cows.
When I ran away as a littlegirl when I was up at the lake I
went to I ran away becauseeveryone was ignoring me.

(42:33):
I found this dairy farm and thekids had cows there and their
parents were gone and so we rodecows, we jumped on their backs
and rode them around.
So I I share that, but theywere not trained, they just we
fell off.
But it was really fun and oneof the highlights.
So I want to hear about well asyou.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Well, they're my favorite animal because, um, we
had a big L shape field, aboutoh, 20 acres, and that's what I
saw outside my bedroom windowand you could tell the time by
where.
The cows here or at corner, orthey down there, that's what
they did twice a day and so theywere very good to tell the time

(43:13):
.
I love them.
A story I'll tell.
I'll tell one story in the bookand then one that's not so.
Um, my grandfather classicallyconditioned all the animals on
the farm and cows, and why, youmay ask.
Cows are very inquisitive.
If they're not scared of people, they will approach them.

(43:34):
Well, in England we have a lotof public um walkways, pathways
that go through private property, so they're allowed to walk on
the footpath and it goes rightacross their fields, and so if
someone's doing that, the cowsare going to see them and slowly
walk over.
Well, if you don't know cows,it looks pretty damn scary when

(43:57):
most of them are black.
You know a few don't look soscary because they're brown and
white.
You know that angers herfordcrosses, and so when we would
get in our one day old heifers,my grandfather would invite all
the kids from the village toteach them to drink from a
bucket, because you see, they'vehad what one day?
Drinking from a teat, and that'slovely and easy.

(44:18):
Now they have to stay alive.
They've got to drink from abucket, so you've got to teach
them.
So we got all the kids to dothis.
It was mayhem, you know wewould end up, you know, cow
butts the because he's notgetting good suction, because
you haven't got your fingersright, you know, so you can suck
it.
And then the milk formula goesall over you and they lick you

(44:39):
with their raspy tongue, whichis, like you know, gets paint
off hardwood or something.
And, um, I asked him years later, when I was at vet college you
know, why did you do that grap?
Why didn't you, you and thefarmhands just do it?
We've been so much quicker.
And he said you know, we haveopen foot pass here, open to

(45:00):
anyone.
There'll be families, there'llbe children, there'll be
children misbehaving.
I wanted the calves firstimpressions of children to be a
very pleasant one, with the kidscovered in milk power.
They're squeaking, screamingall the time.
So I thought that was amazinglyprescient for someone who left
school at 12.
But he did it with all theanimals, with pigs and I tell

(45:22):
you, with pigs, man, probablythe most dangerous people think
it bulls.
No, I think it's a sow.
Right after she's farrowed youlook so bad lying there like she
couldn't move and peaceful, andyou hop over, say they give her
a shot of oxytocin or something, and you jump back so fast you
can't believe it.

(45:42):
They come in very low with theirdirty teeth.
They don't have their tusks youknow like the males, but oh man,
they can deliver a very nastybite.
So he just made all the animalshand-lable.
The other story this is atraining story and I was
lecturing in Puerto Vallarta tothe Texas Academy of Atenarians

(46:07):
on cow behavior and the audiencewas just a bunch of
disbelievers.
Imagine it these are Texas cowvets.
They're all wearing, you know,cowboy boots.
They got hats on jeans.
They all have their feet up onthe chair in front of them with

(46:28):
their legs crossed and armsfolded, leaning back.
And what are they going tolearn from this 28 year old, you
know, californian hippie?
you know my hair was down hereand I was lecturing and I was
talking about how round up wasone of the silliest things I'd

(46:48):
ever heard about.
I mean, who would take ananimal like a herd of cows and
let them all loose without anyprior training, you know,
without even teaching them tocome when called.
And I said I would do this.
You know I would drive aroundthe range.
How often you do it?
You know every day, twice a day, once a week, whatever, and you

(47:10):
pick up and I would drive andwhen I see them I'd go honk,
honk and then I toss off alittle bit of silage and I'd
drive on honk, honk, then alittle bit of silage and honk,
honk, then I'd drive away backto the ranch and that's how I'd
always do my inspections.
And then when it comes down to,you know, round up, you just go

(47:32):
out and you pick up it'scentrally heated, for goodness
sake, you know, or you've gotair conditioning whenever you're
rounding them up and you justdrive your pick up going honk,
honk, honk, honk and there's aload of silage in the back, but
you don't stop till you get tothe ranch.
So anyway, I was telling themthat and they obviously would.
Just there was no facialexpression change.

(47:54):
I'm talking about cows like.
They don't like walking intodark spaces, neither do horses,
neither do pigs and sheep atslaughter.
They love yellow, so haveincreasing, you know, intensity
of yellow lights wherever youwant to go, like in the back of
a horse box.
Duh, I mean, it's a no-brainer.
I got a beautiful letter fromthis, this vet, and he was a

(48:18):
rancher too, you know.
He said dr Dunbar, I must admit, when I attended your lecture I
just did it as a joke to seewhat you could possibly tell me.
He said well, what you saidabout round up made sense.
So I did it.
Unbelievable.
I ride back at the ranch goinghonk, honk, honk, honk with the
whole herd, but because you knowhow they do it, if one cow will

(48:41):
follow you then the rest willfollow, generally the one cow.
So it's um, yeah, it's, I lovethem, it's wonderful.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
They are, they are.
I have a quick cow story.
I was photographing a Holsteinbeautiful Holstein at her farm,
dairy farm, and while they'resetting up lights there was a
herd of about 75 to 100 heifersand cows and I wanted to go out
and photograph the group and Isaid you guys set up lights.
So I didn't bring my assistant,I was out there just my camera

(49:13):
and of course I feel really safearound cows.
I'm used to body language, youknow.
There wasn't a bull and so Iwas, you know.
But 75 cows suddenly were verycurious and they kept coming
closer and circling me andpressing in because the back
cows wanted to see what was, who.
That was Because I was a uniqueperson and they're pressing and

(49:34):
they were getting closer andcloser and I was like, okay, I
think I need to get out of thisgroup without panicking them or
scaring them, because they willstep on you.
A horse doesn't want to becauseyou're squishy.
A cow will step on you ifyou're in the way.
So that was one of, like, themost exciting times with cows,
but also one of the scariest,because I have photos of those

(49:54):
cows, you know, 40 heads andbodies coming in closer, closer,
closer, and I'm just excuse me,pardon me, excuse me and just
gently to get to the fence line,crawled under the fence line.
Now there's 75 cows lined up onthe fence line, looking at me
in perfect formation, becausethey're like you're so
interesting.

(50:14):
And she was like you didn't goout there alone, did you, cause
they usually have a gator orvehicle.
You know four wheel, you knowATV or whatever.
And I was like, oh no, I justwalked out there and like, oh,
you know, but I, I I wasgrateful that I didn't get
excited, they didn't get excited, but it was also really cool
because you're right.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
And that pressure is.
I mean, it happened to me oncewhen I was very young but
looking after a dairy farmaround animals.
You know I was.
I was pretty smart as a kid notas I am normally, I'm pretty
stupid about things and laugh ateverything.
But this couple had never beenon holiday.
They only had about 40 dairycows.

(50:52):
I said, why don't you go onholiday?
Go back to Scotland and I'llstay at the farm, do the milking
and feed them, and you know I'mresponsible and if I have any
trouble I'll call my grandpa.
He'll come around.
And it was the second day on myown that Jenny came in and the
chain you know to chain her upfor milking had dropped down.

(51:13):
I walked between her and a wallto pick this chain up and she
just moved her back foot, put iton my foot and stood and didn't
remove it.
And I tried everything and ofcourse if you push you get
thigmo taxes.
The harder you push, the morethey lean into you.

(51:34):
And I said, help, help.
I thought I'm on my own hereand I realized that's why you
never, when you get in the chain, you always go under the neck
and reach for it.
And you never.
You know, and you always keepyour rear legs straight, so if
they move into you you fall awayfrom the animal, but you don't

(51:56):
go between a cow and a wall.
And then, after about 10minutes, you know and I'm saying
, jenny, move for God's sake.
You're hurting me and I triedtwisting a tail.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
She's a thousand pounds, you know.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
She looked round at me like this, Just chewing her
cut and then about I don't know,seemed like an hour, probably
five minutes, 10 minutes.
She just took the weight off.
They don't know their ownweight and you're right when
they're inquisitive.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
Did your foot like recover?
Oh yeah, is your foot okay?

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Because it was so squishy underneath.
You know, there's a lot ofstraw there.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
Oh, okay, because you know when a horse steps on you
it's kind of I mean, they willmove eventually.
But you're right, if you horsesteps on you, push on your
shoulder, he leans into you Likeit hurts more, you know.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
So you're better off and it's how you solidify say,
stays in dog training, if youwant a shy shelter to sit boldly
, you stroke her from nose overthe top of her head, getting
more and more pressure, more andmore pressure than you've
pushed down.
If you want a solid stand, stay, you go stand.
And then you got to get thehead pointed down so that the

(53:09):
luring comes out and then, ifyou leave it there, the dog will
stand and sit.
So you out the stand, then youdrop your hand, stay to get its
nose down a bit, and then I holdthe food there and then I press
on the withers and I said I gopush, push, push, push, push,
push, push until the four legsare absolutely solid.

(53:32):
Then we go down the back bit bybit, cause, yeah, we get to the
hips and the butt and then whenyou can do this there, push,
push, push, you've got it.
Now, as I used to tell them, youknow, in obedience, now the
judge is your double handler inthe ring.
You see, as they run the handalong the dog's back, what
they're actually saying to thedog is stand, stay, stand, stay,

(53:54):
stand, stay, stand, stay.
So your dog gets really rigid.
So thigmo taxes, and it's oneof the major reasons I, you know
, have against jerking If thejerking works with a loose leash
to be unpleasant, but once theleash is tight, jerking only

(54:14):
works to train the dog to doexactly what you don't want to
pull against you, to move away.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Exactly.
Yeah, it's like with a bridleand a bit.
If you just have constantpressure, you're going to make a
A mouth that gets desensitizedto to the bit and hard they're
going to pull.
The horse will always pull.
That's when you're trainingthem to tie.
If you tie them solid and fastso they they pull back and they
get pressure, they're going topull back harder and you break
something to hurt themselves orflip over where, if you use a

(54:41):
tie block or some other formwhere it moves a little bit, a
little bit of pressure that theycan pull back without that slam
, they learn to stand tightbecause then they give I.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
I I bought a horse because um, well, she was going
to get a little bit of pressure,going to be the glue the next
day.
And I loved her.
She had a beautiful truck.
It's like she wasn't moving atall, it's like a pacifino, you
know.
It was like you're going skiingand you know.
And so I bought her and she hada great truck, but she had a

(55:11):
frisky canter, which is too muchfor me.
I'm not an expert horseman.
I only learned to ride becauseI was a vet and by law back then
you had to treat every animal.
That means I could be aroundhorses and horsey people and you
know.
So I learned to ride.
So one day, with puddings, shewas called black what was it?

(55:32):
Black forest or something.
Her name.
I changed it to pudding, blackpudding, because she looked like
a pudding, right.
So one day, um and she, when Ibought her, she was uncatchable
in the stall.
Well, that, as a dog trainer,that took me what?
20 minutes?
It really simple.
I just went in there and theyhad some little briccats of um,

(55:56):
oh God, can't remember what youcall them now, but it's also
pellets or something, or treatsAlso, or to them yeah.
She saw them so they didn'tsplinter into like quarters and
a little bit of dash ofpeppermint and a little bit of
molasses, and so I just stoodthere with them and waited.

(56:17):
She came up to me and I gave herone.
Then I walked to a differentcorner and then I had a dog
leash actually, and fromunderneath I flipped it around
her neck said gotcha, briquette,briquette, briquette.
And she said cool, I like that.
So then we had a recall on avery quickly.
But I thought I'm going to dothe same with her gates because

(56:40):
my legs are hopeless, you know,for communicating to a horse.
So I, you know, knees come in,then toes go out, you know, I
mean, I'm sorry, I can'tmultitask with toes and heels
and knees and hip.
So I trained her on the groundlike a dog, off leash, and I had

(57:01):
picked some of the greenestgrass you've ever seen over the
other side of the fence and Ihad it in my hand and I was
feeding her.
And off, take it, thank you,like a dog.
And then whoa, okay, and thenwalk.
And we walked and then trot, Iwas really fit.

(57:22):
Then the horse is trottingalong, changing gate, and then
walk and whoa.
So we had three gears and thenI went on a fourth recant to
which I could only do for about10 yards because it was too fast
me to run.
And then I went round and I puta pleasure spot on the right
side of her neck, because mostpeople approach horses on the

(57:44):
left and the right side is agood side, it's not poisoned.
So as a vet I always went up tothe right side of horses and I
remember horsey people used tothink it's weird.
I said, look, bad stuff hasn'thappened from here, but good
stuff is going to.
So I would touch up on the neckand hand feeder, touch feet,

(58:05):
touch feet.
Well, this spot I can now tapfrom the saddle.
Good, putting, what I'm putting.
Tap, tap, tap.
And I got on the horse the nextday and my train is looking at
me and I got my position rightand like I'm in an armchair,
sitting up straight, like I didballet, I got my hands nicely,
like in ballet, for you know,like ballet, one and a half, you

(58:28):
know halfway between this andthis range in my hand, wrap
round, pinky and stuff.
I said putting, walk, thenputting, trot, good putting,
good putting.
And she just shook her head.
She said that it worked.
And the other thing I found outwas and you probably know this,

(58:50):
because when you're gettingdogs to form associations, you
give a verbal command and thenyou lure.
So I say putting walk and thenthe lure moves away from it
because I'm walking with it.
To make that association rightputting walk and the lure is
going to move away.
Therefore I walk takes mostdogs about 12 repetitions.

(59:13):
I have known dogs that havetaken 20 and I had a couple of
dogs that took about 50 to 100repetitions.
And protocol is often takethree horses.
Three horses, yes, so quickly.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
They learn bad in three.
I mean they look good.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
The learning behavior bit is to do with people using
a versus stimuli in training andthe first thing they learn is
when you can't hurt me If Iraise myself up in the air and
paddle my front legs if I runaway from you if.
I buck and then run away fromyou.
They learn all these things.

(59:56):
Now I'm pain free.
I called it pain free.
Horse training people.
They learn how to stop trainingand some of them and we get
this in dogs to learnhelplessness Like the master
stands still.
Yes, golden retriever justflops down.
I said I've had it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
They would call it shutdown.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
The horses were shut down, and then you can have
aggressive shutdowns to wherethe horse says you try that once
more, you're off.
But you have to realize this isnot a bad horse that needs to
be broken.
You taught the horse that it'sdoing it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
No, there's a saying horses.
There's a saying that horsesare only do what they've been
taught to do or allowed to do,you know.
So that's kind of an old axiomand allowed to do.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
They've allowed.
You see, people don'tunderstand what the word
domesticated means.
A domestic animal is not fullydomesticated until it's
socialized with people, becauseit's that's I mean, that's like
the definition of it.
Just because it's a horsedoesn't mean to say it's

(01:01:06):
domestic animal.
If you let it grow on its own,it will become flighty and
scared of people, especiallyunfamiliar people making loud
noises and sudden movements.
If you socialize it during thefirst 48 hours, it is now a
domesticated animal and youwon't have to do with all these
bad things that you think is inthe heart of the horse.

(01:01:28):
Oh no, you know, we have tobreak him of these habits.
If you handled him, he wouldn'thave these habits.
If, as a foal, you walked himaround with a you know half a
sack of wheat on his back, it'dbe ready for someone to lumber
up and sit there.
You know, and people just don'tthink ahead.
What will this animal have todo when it's grown up?

(01:01:50):
How do we want it to misbehave?
And they're very deceptive,because a foal is, it's harmless
.
Puppies are harmless andpuppies appear to be overly
friendly and overly socialized.
But no, that's because you'reonly seeing them socializing
with the same person.

(01:02:11):
You, you want to make sure it'sgoing to be competent with
unfamiliar people.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Oh, absolutely we do that.
We do that with when I get.
I don't my cats, don't havekittens, so when I need
something I will go adopt some,some more kittens, because I
don't otherwise you know, so wecan.
There's always kittens thatneed homes.
We take those kittenseverywhere.
Because how on earth can Iexpect him to be a studio cat
and learn how to be comfortablein studio If I don't take him

(01:02:39):
everywhere?
I go and have him play withother people, get treats from
other people, get pet from otherpeople and learn to not be
afraid?
Because people say my cat couldbe a model and I'm like well,
maybe he does these things athome, but the minute you get him
in a studio where he can seeeverything around him is a
stimulus and he gets frightenedbecause he can't, he doesn't
know any, it's not familiar.
And the same thing when we getinto dog, and we had a.

(01:03:01):
We got a dog during COVID, butthat dog went everywhere with us
and we just made sure to gethim out, you know as around as
many people as possible outside,you know, as safely as we could
, blah, blah, blah.
But anyway, he's one of my bestacting dogs.
He has the most fun, loveseverything, every other animal,
every other dog.
You know he's a colleague,border colleague, mix, which is

(01:03:24):
to be heaven, but I know whatyou're saying I understand what
you're saying.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
I wanted to ask you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
No, I'm going to say this is what veterinarians
should be telling everyone thatyou know when they get their
eight week old.
So it's two thirds throughcritical period of socialization
for dogs and cats.
But we got a month.
Socialize it nonstop, invitepeople to your home or take it
for, carry it in public, createit in public, cart it in public

(01:03:55):
or car ride.
People don't realize that youcan socialize cats and dogs to
almost anything by having themin a car crate, and for the
really big dogs it can be in theback of the car so you can go
to a car park and a shoppingcenter, open your boot flap it
never sniffs the ground wherethe danger of infectious

(01:04:15):
diseases are.
And you could sell puppy kissesa dollar each or kitty kisses.
Everybody always wants to cometo cats because I think they
never leave the house and thenone day they're feeling poorly
and the owner catches them,frightens them, puts them in a

(01:04:37):
crate, frightens them, puts themin the car and then takes them
to the vet clinic where astranger's going to pull them
out and examine them.
This must be so stressful andthat's what you shouldn't be
doing to a sick animal, usuallyto have trained your animals
like when they pull up in thevet clinic parking park they
think yep, mom and pops treatdispensary.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Oh yeah, no, my, my cats like chicken or turkey and
that's the reward for you knowall these behaviors I learned.
I've learned that if, when youhave a cat in your house Sorry,
I know it's about dogs with theprinciples of the same, and say
the cats annoying you, the catsdoing stuff, cats being a cat,
but it's annoying, the behaviorseems to be annoying because

(01:05:22):
he's being a cat, you don't wantthem around, you grab him.
People do this.
Grab the cat and throw them inanother room or throw them
downstairs or throw them outside, right, literally, pick them up
and throw him, you know or not,throw them, but like, open the
door, put them out.
What is he learned?
When you grab me, you take meaway from you who I want to be
with, because if the catsocialize, he wants to be around
.
So then, like every time youpick them up, something negative

(01:05:44):
happens and then they go.
Well, my cat's not cuddling, hewon't let me pick him up.
Well, because every time you'vepicked him up, something bad
happens.
I use turkey, like here we'regoing to go in your crate for a
while.
Here's that.
Follow the jump up, jump up,get the treat.
Yummy content.
We're going to go here we'regoing to go, we're going to go
downstairs because I can't haveall of you here right now, so
I'm going to open the door.
They all run down the steps.

(01:06:05):
Look at me.
Yum yum, yum, yum, yum, youknow it's like so.
Then when I go to pick them up,it's always pleasant.
We're going to have a nice perv, we're going to be have
attention.
So the dog if I grabbed hiscollar and dragged him around,
what, what, why would he learnanything good from that?
Whereas if I go here's you know, here's something that you
enjoy, your kibble.
Whatever we can go in yourcrate, like even now my train

(01:06:27):
dogs, I'll still throw a littlebit of kibble in the trade
because it's like, you know,great time, we're going to have
great time now.
There you go, here's yourlittle bit, and they're like,
happy and content, no whining,no fussing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
And they'll do that everywhere, because yeah, I
think cats, cats especially,always say to people you know,
you are.
Well, we are very lucky thatdomestic cats don't come in the
same sizes as domestic dogs,because the life of most cat
owners would be over that fast.
So now, thinking about the catsfeelings, we must handle them.

(01:06:58):
We've got to get them to befloppy, like a stuffed toy, so
that when you take it to the vetwe just use verbal commands.
We say do and hop, he jumps.
Used to jump on the exam table.
Stand, he won't move.
And then we can examine most ofthe animal.
And then we jump in on thefloor and say, bang, he's on his

(01:07:21):
back, like this.
So you can then examine theother side.
So you do it with cats too, andthen they really learn to love
the chest scratch.
It's mesmerizing for them, andwhen they've had enough they'll
tell you they'll just take yourhand in there to pull that and
then you stop.
And you only need stop for fourseconds and then they pour you

(01:07:42):
again.
I need more now, you know,otherwise they get
overstimulated, but you've gotto desensitize.
I call them subliminal bitetriggers.
So these are the 13 most commonreasons why a dog or cat would
bite you.
And so, number one we have totone down the force of the bite

(01:08:02):
by teaching bite inhibition, byplaying with the cat and letting
it man off our fingers and thedog right, so we can give
feedback.
What is caught?
Weak jaws, but pointing teeth,and to make sure it understands
that it bites hurt us beforethey develop big, old, blunt
teeth and very powerful jaws.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
Especially in a cat, because a cat, a cat bite can be
pretty infectious.
So you know that when you getbit by a cat you better watch
that because it can be prettyinfectious.
So I can learn my kittens learnwhen we're playing with them
the bite inhibition.
I know exactly what you'retalking about, where they nibble
and then you teach them thatthat's.
You're telling me something.
Okay, but this, this is toomuch, this is enough.

(01:08:43):
Whatever I did, so none of mycats bite.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
I mean the lovely to have.
When I came over here in 71.
I have no money because youcould only take 300 pounds out
of England I had nothing, youknow, and luckily someone took
pity on me a primatologist andshe said Ian, do you, would you
like a house set?
I said, what house sitting?

(01:09:07):
They said, well, these peopleare going to Africa to look at
the boons and they need someoneto look after their Malamute and
their cat and they kind of likethe idea you were a
veterinarian and I said, yeah,and you can drive their car,
that's cool and they'll pay you.
So I became a professionalhouse, only for people in the

(01:09:31):
hills who were going away formore than six months.
And this is the first time I'vebeen housed with a cat.
Gina was an indoor cat.
I'd never had that.
All our cats were indoor,outdoor cats, including the farm
cats, and and of course theyhad a longer life expectancy
because of the farm dogs, theall the nasty things that were

(01:09:54):
coming around to mess with thecats.
The dogs would take them outand I can't go ballistic at 10am
and it would climb up avertical beam and then run along
the beams on the ceilinghanging like this, and then it

(01:10:16):
would.
It just it was crazy.
So I didn't know what to do.
Normally I would have said, oh,go outside and do that, you
know, catch a rat or something.
And so what I did was I had alittle flashlight they didn't
have laser lights back then andit had a really pinpoint beam
and you know, cat, cat toy, andI would lead it away into the

(01:10:39):
kitchen and I would pull astring in the kitchen door and
then I felt bad about it.
So I eventually learn if youcan't beat them, join them.
So at five to 10, what I woulddo is I had a little ball, like
a racket ball, actually squashball, and smaller, with feathers

(01:11:03):
on it, on the end of a fishingline, and then at five to 10, I
would sit in the armchair infront of the fire and flick this
up the carpeted stairs, youknow, and the cat would go what
and then kept them and I woulddo this for about five minutes
and then at 10 o'clock the catwould be.
So we let it have an activityperiod on a cushioned stairs,

(01:11:28):
you know.
But the cat got what it wanted,I got what I wanted.
There's always a solution when Ithink, you see it from the
animals point of view, that whatwe define as a behavior problem
, the dog would define as myfavorite activities like running
away, being chased, chasing,cat eating, cat poop, going

(01:11:54):
crazy in the middle of themorning, in the middle of the
evening.
You know, for cats notinternally, they are not eternal
animals.
I mean that's what they lovedoing.
And to deny them that wellbarking?
We always barkathon up on thebalcony five o'clock every
evening, glasses of wine forKelly and I, and we'd go whoop,

(01:12:16):
whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, andthen the dogs would start and we
had a hound dog too, youimagine that and it went right
across the.
I'm like in a great big forestyball, so I can't see any houses
from my house, but they'rethere in the trees and people in

(01:12:36):
the flatlands of Berkeley musthave heard this plaintiff
howling with three dogs, notknowing it was started by Kelly
and I.
They probably thought do youthink those dogs can tell time?
Why do they always howl at 5pm?
Because we'd dive for a glassof wine.
That's why.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
There you go, there you go.
Everybody's trained.
That's pretty great.
That's pretty great.
Well, this has been reallyamazing.
We're so grateful that you tookthe time to speak with us today
, Diomed.
No, your book comes by the timethis comes out.
Your book will be out, becauseyour book comes out early
December of 2023.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
It comes out 5th of December.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
You can buy the book Right and the title of the book
I wanted to Barking the righttree Barking up the right tree,
barking up the right tree?
Yep, and I imagine that's.
You can find that book.
It's already online, anywherethey sell books.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
It's the big online retailers.
I would like to mention anotherthing.
We have just well, just, itactually happens.
On the second December we areresuscitating a program that
we've had for 20 years now, andthat's where serious puppy
training my company funded thisprogram.

Speaker 2 (01:13:50):
It's going to ask about it Because that's always
been a steady, good income.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
You know, we have 25 puppy training schools all in
the Bay Area and we would giveaway two free books before you
get your puppy, after you getyour puppy to every humane
society shelter in the Bay Area.
So this is the Bay Area andit's probably the highest

(01:14:14):
earning state Just the Bay Areain the whole of the US.
It's its own country.
To every participating vetclinic, we had about 100.
To pet stores, we had veryfewer those and anyway they got
boxes of these books and Ipublished them.
So they weren't they only 99cents a piece, but I would

(01:14:39):
deliver these boxes of books.
And then it got too muchbecause we had too many people
who wanted the free books togive to.
So they went to vets and petstores because that's where
people went.
When they got the first day theygot their puppy.
And then when we went digital,oh and then we started shipping
them.
But it costs so much money.
It cost five times the shippingthan the price of the book.

(01:15:02):
So I capped it at about youknow 200 places we were
delivering to.
Then we went digital andthinking great, now it's ebooks.
But it dropped off, it fell outof favor, because pet stores
and veterinary clinics weretotal luddites when it came to
websites.
They were the last people toyou know shelters were on board

(01:15:27):
still because they knew you know, whatever.
Anyway, so we're starting itagain with a vengeance, and my
goal is within a year that'sgreat each critical mass, so
that every prospective puppyowner knows about these two
books before they get the puppy.

(01:15:48):
So here's the deal.
Anyone can download these booksfor free now from Dunbar
Academy dot com, and the linkyou need is Dunbar dot info.
Backslash free pup books.
One word.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
Fantastic.
We'll put that in the show.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
It'll come up with the URL and take you there.
And not only can you downloadthese two books for free, and
it's very quick.
You go, click one book, clickanother book.
Then I just say a littlesentence and say and also, we
have another gift.
So this is for your listeners.
If they go down to the thirdclick, they can access all of

(01:16:35):
the top dog Academy.
I'm talking hundreds andhundreds of hours for free for a
month.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
That's fantastic.
So you get a one month freesubscription to the top dog
Academy.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
So spread the word.
So when you get these books,share them with every doggy
owner, you know, because somedaythey might get another puppy.
If you hear someone's getting apuppy, please spread the book
around.
I want to get critical masswithin the year.
I think perfectly doable.

Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
Oh, I agree, and what I said in the very beginning
dogs are going to be better forthis.
This is going to make and ownlives as well.
I mean, that's exactly becauseit's hand in hand.
But I just does my heart wellto hear that you're sharing this
with so many, and we will doour best to spread the word to.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
Yeah, you keep mentioning children a lot and
yeah, we are in the doggy worldand the cow world, but I
personally do a lot of the dogstuff for people, and by that I
mean I find it very sadsometimes that I don't think
people get the joy of dogownership or living with a dog

(01:17:45):
as much as I do.
But what this really is aboutis all this stuff works with all
animals, people included.
We are mammals.
See humans are animals.
My favorite animal is my son,jamie, and he runs the company

(01:18:06):
now and you can ask him aquestion If you don't believe
what I say.
Next, we have never had anargument.
It goes without saying.
I've never laid my hand onanything, never grabbed him.
I've laid my hand on him gentlybecause he was going to step
into the street when we'rewalking off leash when he was
younger, or to hug him, but wehave never had an argument.

(01:18:30):
I don't see why we should.
We have disagreements,especially now.
We work together and myresponse is always Jamie, these
are not mutually exclusive.
You do it all the way, I do itmine.
We see which one works the best, and that's what we're doing
right now.
I've changed our free bookdownload.

(01:18:51):
It used to be a rigmarole toget them.
You had to do this and that andgive your email, and now it's
just click the books yours,click the books yours.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
And we will share the links for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:19:05):
You get to see what we're really about.
Hundreds of you can binge watch.
It would take you five monthsto go through.
This is a big site Anyway oh,that's, that's so Barbara has
been wonderful and a joy tospeak about horses and cats and,

(01:19:26):
of course, cows as well as dog.
I love them all.
I love cows for sure.
I think people have a traininggets a bad rap.
They say, oh, it's cruel totrain an animal.
I say no, training an animal.
In my book is teaching ananimal ESL, so it clearly
understands what we're asking itto do.

(01:19:48):
In normally spoken sentencesthey're like I mentioned.
Jamie, so one of my favoritesentences in the book is with
Jamie.
It's Phoenix.
Come here and sit.
Come means come and sit,phoenix, come.
Take this.
Go to Jamie, please, malamute.
She would run notes.

(01:20:09):
Go and find him and deliver anote in the garden.
That's what training is aboutto open communication channels
so animals aren't accused ofmisbehaving.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
No, that's this is.
This has been so informative.
I just wish I could follow youaround and just Take a cow.
Well, I can.
I can show you all of the cows.
We've got them all here andthey're all wonderful.
Like I said, they're myfavorite thing to photograph as

(01:20:43):
well.
Again, thank you so much.
We're going to be wrapping thisup.
All of the Dr Barnards or DrDunbar's information will be in
the in the links to all of this.
This will be on YouTube.
This will also be on all ofApple, spotify, any place you
get a podcast.
Again, we're grateful.

Speaker 1 (01:21:01):
And we'll obviously let Jamie know when it is
released and we'll give the oldpodcast a boost to On our social
media.

Speaker 2 (01:21:10):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:11):
There's no point in me doing this.
If we don't, then both promoteit, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
Right around doing this, so maybe start to my day.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
I'm now, I'm taking the day off.
I'm going in the garden, well,to garden.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
There you go.
Yeah, yeah, you, you, you you.