Dr. Shelly Appleton - My Horse's Problem was Actually Me - S2 E23

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Barbara O’Brien talks with horse trainer, coach and author Dr. Shelley Appleton about building trust and confidence between riders and their horses. Shelley shares how things like fear, aging, and hormones can affect riding, especially for women. They talk about the importance of patience, understanding, and learning to see things from the horse’s point of view. 
In addition to being the host of the Canter Therapy podcast, Shelley is the author of two books - Confidence & Trust, Solving the Human & Horse Equation; and Buying & Supporting a New Horse, The Essential Guide.
This episode is full of tips for riders and the value of working with others to grow and learn.

https://www.empathetic-trainer.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien andyou're listening to the
empathetic trainer podcast.
Got a real special guest today.
Shelly appleton is going totalk to us all about horses and
our relationship with them, andyou know that's like one of my

(00:36):
favorite things and, I'm sure,one of your favorite things to
learn about too.
Dr shelly appleton is a highlyskilled equine trainer and coach
.
She owns and operates calm,willing, confident horses.
Shelly believes that the key toany successful relationship is
to help support the horse bymaking them feel calm, confident
and comfortable.
She is also the author of twobooks Confidence and Trust

(00:58):
Solving the Human and HorseEquation, and Buying and
Supporting a New Horse theEssential Guide.
Just even the title of yourbook is fascinating.
Thank you for coming, shelly.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
I'm really glad to be on here.
Thanks for inviting me, Barbara.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Great.
The buying the new horse,making them feel calm, confident
, comfortable Wow, I reallyrelate to that, and so I do want
to definitely dig into that andlearn about that book.
But a few things we'll startout with before we get to that
is I'm just curious how youbecame what you kind of consider
which I love the accidentalhorse trainer.

(01:34):
How did you become?

Speaker 2 (01:36):
the horse trainer.
I'm a total accident.
So yeah, if you told me even 15years ago that I'd be sitting
here doing this as a full-timejob, I would have thought that
was hilarious.
So I was your quintessentialequestrian.
I was an academic in pharmacy.

(01:56):
I had a 25-year career inacademia as a pharmacist and I
was someone that rode horses asa hobby and I was one of those
people that was very dedicatedto my sport of dressage and I
had my weekly lessons and I hadmy horses.
And you know, I was thequintessential amateur.

(02:18):
And then I had some epiphanies,let's call them that, some
moments in my life that reallyconfronted me and highlighted
the ignorant world that I wasliving in and realized that I
actually didn't have a clue whatI was doing, which was very
confronting when you've riddenhorses since you were 10.

(02:44):
So that's what happens.
That's why I'm accidental.
Uh, I had no intention ever,even when I started getting good
at training horses, it waspurely a personal pursuit.
You know, I had got curiousfrom my mistakes and I'll tell
you about my.
I'll run through the.
You know the, the terriblediscoveries I've discovered
about myself and what I wasdoing to my horses, but what

(03:07):
happened is that it sparked mycuriosity when those mistakes
were revealed to me sparked mycuriosity and that really filled
me with a real passion.
A real passion that there was alot that I didn't know and one
thing that I had been able to doreally well in my life was to

(03:28):
learn things really well.
In fact, that was my copingmechanism, for anything that
scared me was to just master it.
So I got very passionate aboutit, but it was a purely personal
endeavor and it wasn't until Ihelped one of my friends because
I witnessed something terribleand I'll run through all that
for you.
That really kind of catapultedme into helping people, but it

(03:51):
started off just as my friends,and then their friends, and then
their neighbors, and then itgot bigger than Ben Hur and I'll
never forget.
The first person that contactedme and asked me to do a clinic
was and I'm in Australia, you'vegot to understand and at the
time was in Perth, westernAustralia, which is the most
remote city in the world.
The first person that contactedme and asked me to do a clinic
was from Texas in America, andthat was so hilarious anyway.

(04:15):
So that's where I came from andlet me just tell you.
I want to tell you whathappened, what was the moment
that happened that reallystarted me off or really opened
my eyes to my ignorance, like mybig mistake.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
So after I'm going, to stop you right there, because
we all relate to what you'resaying.
Anyone who's been aroundanimals and worked with animals,
we could all, especially, theolder you get, the more you go.
I can't believe I used to thinkthis way, used to be this way,
and you kind of beat yourself up.
But you know, so we are.
I understand already a littlebit and, um, it helps us to go

(04:55):
like we're not alone in this.
So please go on.
I just wanted to like, say that, like, like, I get it.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
You're not the only one no, it's just that I think
people are always really, andpeople always thank me for
telling the story.
So I do, I want to tell itbecause it's like thank you, you
know, like that was kind ofinspiring.
It's like, yes, my biggestfailure of my equestrian life is
an inspiration, so that's good.
So let me tell it to you.
So my horse died, sadly when Iwas in my final years of high

(05:31):
school and I decided just tofocus on my studies, um, instead
of getting jumping in andgetting a new horse.
So what I did is I didn't getanother horse, although I leased
horses and rode other people'shorses until I had finished my
university degree and I'd donemy internship and I'd actually
worked for a couple of years tosave up because I wanted to buy
the, the most amazing horse ever.

(05:51):
So I went and purchased theflashiest young, warm blood I
could find okay to be anabsolute dressage star.
And then he proceeded to scarethe hell out of me for nearly
eight years eight years.
He scared the hell out of mefor nearly eight years, eight
years.
He scared the hell out of meand I labeled him as sensitive
because he was scared of theworld.
I'd fall off him, and I'm notkidding, I would fall off him

(06:15):
every four to six weeks becausewhen he would spook he would
also spin, but I actually nevergot hurt because he was so
athletic.
He spun so close and low to theground and I always fell off to
the off side, off to the right,and I was only ever quite a low
, a low distance from the ground, but it was always just like

(06:36):
bang and I was on the ground andit was like the ultimate uh of
human sufferings.
You know, they say the threehuman sufferings.
You know they say the threehuman sufferings are pain,
uncertainty and the need forconstant work.
Well, scooter and that was thehorse's name was all that rolled
into one, and so riding him wasjust, it was just a dread.

(06:58):
You just waited for it becauseyou never knew what it was.
It was that something ornothing.
You could never predict it.
So I labelled him as sensitiveand, of course, being a
pharmacist from that world, Ilived in Barbara.
What do you think I did?
What do you think I did to tryto fix him?
What do you guess?
Medication or something.
That's right, because he had amedical condition, didn't he?

(07:19):
There's obviously somethingwrong with him and I had to cure
that.
Like you like with you know howmedicine cure things.
It's like what's the deficientthing, what's going wrong and
how do I fix it.
So that was my preoccupationfor a long time and of course
I'm a really hard worker.
I was told, already told youthat that you know I, I hard
work my way out of problems.
Um, yet this horse, it didn'tmatter what pill, potion, herb

(07:43):
supplement I gave him, likenothing really ever changed it.
And then it was like I got anew saddle, I got new bits.
I even did an entire bonetherapy course which is like a
massage type modality, becausehe had one once and he was good
the next day.
So it's just like, damn it, I'mdoing that whole diploma.

(08:04):
So I even did that.
It was complete desperatenessand it even got a little bit
crazy towards the end because Iwas getting him to and I'm not
going to say it's crazy becauseyou know there is some research
into aromatherapy but before I'dride him I'd get him to smell
patchouli and lavender oilbefore I rode him.
So it was just like.
So I went from, like you know,a pharmacist into desperateness,

(08:27):
into complementary medicine, totry to find the solution for my
sensitive horse.
And I just looked at him.
I was just sensitive and how Isaw myself was very unfortunate
that I bought this sensitivehorse with this really difficult
temperament and the only thingthat I saw myself as being
deficit in was bravery.
That was it, bravery.

(08:47):
I just had to be braver to ridehim anyway.
Then, um, my lovely farrier atthe time, he became my partner
and mentor.
His name was Gary Willoway.
He's an exceptional horseman,he and he was a great mentor
because he never told you whatyou were doing wrong, ever.
He never.
He waited for you to ask and heoffered to ride scooter for me

(09:08):
one day.
Anyway, imagine this.
Imagine the most beautiful day,beautiful, sunny day, not too
hot, gentle breeze, walking downto my arena and I was quite
sure that, um, that Gary was gethurt because, you know, he was
a rodeo man, he did team ropingand he rode those really quiet
quarter horses.

(09:29):
You know those really quietquarter horses because that's
how, in the silo, I was in myworld of dressage and I was
quite sure he, you know he'dnever ridden anything like this
high octane dressage horse thatI had.
And I'm walking down there andI'm telling him all the things
that Scooter spooked at in myarena.
Because you see, barbara, Icould only ride at one end of my

(09:52):
arena on probably I wouldn'teven call it a 20 meter circle,
I'd call it a 15 meter circlebecause he was so scared of
everything.
I used to call that my circleof safety, so I could only ride
him on this circle.
That's how restricted my lifewas with him and where I could
ride him.
I never was able to go to acompetition.
I would go to my coach's placewhere I'd fall off a few times,

(10:14):
and once or twice I tried totake him to riding club, which
was a traumatizing experienceanyway.
So I've got the circle of safetyand I'm running through with
Gary all the things that Scooterspooks at right.
He's worried about this,worried about that anyway.
Um, gary gets on him and askshim to walk off and, of course,
on cue, uh, scooter spookedright and all Gary did was give

(10:38):
him a bit of a kick and put himup into a canter.
Now I was a bit validated tobegin with by that spook because
as we're walking down and I wastelling him about every time,
everywhere that he spooked, garylooked a bit quizzical.
He didn't say anything, but Icould tell he was looking
slightly amused and I asked himyou know like, didn't you want
to know what Scooter spooked at?
Because to me that was sensible, that was risk management,

(11:02):
right, that's how my mind workedwas like no, I'll just wait for
him to do something, I'm notgoing to preempt it.
Anyway, I thought that wasmadness.
So when he spooked on him inthe first two seconds I felt
very validated.
But then that's where it ended,barbara.
It ended and I proceeded towatch Scooter and Gary lope

(11:22):
around my arena, past everythingscary, with Scooter and Gary
lope around my arena, pasteverything scary, with Scooter,
just relaxed, looking likeanyone could ride him, the most
relaxed horse in the world.
Gary turned around, he went theother way, loping, no problem,
beautiful, relaxed, and I hadthat horrid realization, very
confronting realization, thathis problem was actually me and

(11:46):
sometimes you can be so cleverand so hard working that you
don't see your own fault in asituation.
and I remember he, he loped upto me and he halted and he you
know Gary just smiled and putthe reins on Scooter's neck and
I looked at Gary and I said it'sme, isn't it?

(12:07):
And he went yeah, it's you.
And I just went because Garydoesn't offer any.
You had to ask, right?
He was very polite, you know,let you work out your own
problems.
And I said what am I doingwrong?
And he said it's you, you'retelling him.

(12:28):
The world is terrifying and he'sbelieving you stop creeping
around him, stop worrying aboutthe world, stop trying to
protect him, because he believesyou that the world is
terrifying.
Stop it and you know what.
That's all I had to do.
That is all I had to do on thathorse that that was the easiest
horse ever to transform, but itgave me this lesson and,

(12:49):
although I tell you what, it wasone hard pill to swallow when
that, like, you think you'regood at something and suddenly
you realize you've caused this,yeah and but at the same time it
was this wall.
It was like that's all I haveto do is change me.
That was also super empowering.
So, although it was superuncomfortable, it was like,

(13:11):
seriously, I had changed myselfand learnt some hard stuff in my
day.
This got revealed to me.
Yes, it was very confronting,but, boy, I know how to change
me and I'll never forget the day.
I'm going to tell you thisother horrible story, this other
horrible thing I did to Scooteras well, just to tell you it
was lightly sprinkling one day.

(13:32):
Imagine it was lightlysprinkling, it was coming on
winter and I was leading himthrough a gate this is before my
epiphany leading him through agate, and he kept bolting
through the gate right nearlyover the top of me.
Anyway, I got angry becausethat's what you do when you're
scared.
When you're scared and you needsomething done, you channel the
opposite emotion, which is like,which is like anger and

(13:54):
aggression, and I was making himgo back and forth, back and
forth, back and forth, back andforth across this threshold of
this gate, until he did it kindof quietly, right right, and I
remember him he was only 16hands, but this time, by the
time I got him through the gatequietly, he was 18 hands and he
was solid as a statue and he wasjust staring off into the

(14:16):
distance and I remember lookingat him and wondering what the
hell is going through your headhorse?
I can't work you out right.
What the hell is going throughyour head horse?
I can't work you out right.
And then I heard the tick, tick, tick of the electric fence
shorting out.
Scooter had metal shoes on.
He was actually beingelectrocuted every time he went

(14:37):
through that gate.
Yet I made him do that multipletimes until he walked through
it, right?
So think of that.
You must have felt terrible,but I mean it wasn't on purpose.
Well, I did, well, I did.
So I felt terrible about that,but I also just remember looking
at him and just feelingcompletely and utterly hopeless

(14:58):
and frustrated about how I getin your head.
Anyway, what Gary did wasrelease that I didn't have to
worry about his head I had.
What Gary did was release thatI didn't have to worry about his
head.
I had to worry about my own,what I was doing.
That's far easier to fix, fareasier to fix.
So that was my lesson.
He was my lesson in theself-awareness and that thing

(15:19):
that I had never considered thatI could impact a horse like
that.
And that was straight.
It was.
That was complete and absoluteignorance.
And I tried to think what was Ithinking back then?
And it was just like.
That's how simple and limitedmy thoughts are of the situation
, of what was going on betweenmy horse.
I had no, no, no perception, noidea at all that I had any

(15:43):
impact on a horse.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
And they should you're younger than me I believe
you're younger than me, shellybut um, certainly, when I was
growing up that none of this wasconsidered.
You know, I mean, how a horsefeels, except for a few
exceptional people that you know.
We we kind of learn from now,even now, and you know, but
certainly you know he's notlistening hit him harder.
You know, um, he's gonna havehit him harder.

(16:06):
You know he's going to have him.
Respect you, it's just in.
The same thing happened in thedog world.
It was very harsh on dogs backin the day.
The dog people caught up.
It's getting much, much better.
Horse people are just nowstarting to wake up that the
horse can actually think andfeel.
But also, yeah, I just you know, I remember someone said to a

(16:27):
mare I was riding she might likea French link bit, you know her
, she might have a thickerpalate.
She's a Morgan, you know.
And I was like thank goodness,like, oh, that that's great,
I'll give it a try.
And of course the horse washappier.
But just being aware of, likewhat she was thinking and
feeling, you know, you're like20 years old and you know
everything.
Just being aware of like whatshe was thinking and feeling,
you know, you're like 20 yearsold and you know everything.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Oh yeah, it was just like.
There's just no, there's justvacantness.
You know, like I could it wasnot in my like, like you know
how you can only, your realityis constructed by what you know,
and my knowing and my beliefswas so, so small, so limited,
that that was my reality that Icouldn't.

(17:07):
It seems so common sense nowwhen you, when you think about
it and in fact I have to tellyou this, barry, because my, my
PhD is in human learning and thedevelopment of expertise, and
there's this really fascinatingthing and this to any
professional out there I wantyou to tell you this little bit
of an insight into humanlearning.
Humans have to learn things insmall increments, right?

(17:36):
They have to learn this conceptbefore they can take on this
next concept.
They can't go straight to thatother concept.
They've got to learn things inlayers and there's a theory and
it's the greatest learningtheory that helps you have a lot
of patience for humans.
If you want to be patient withanimals, you've got to be super
patient with humans becausewe're complicated.
So there's a theory calledthreshold learning, right,

(17:57):
thresholds of learning, and wehave to pass through these
thresholds of lightbulb momentsto be able to see one layer
before the next layer can beilluminated and we can see the
next layer.
Right, that's how we learn.
That's why humans are useless.
We can sit down and we can tellthem the whole thing in a

(18:18):
lecture.
We can explain it all out andthey'll walk away and might
learn a little bit.
It's because your brain has toget concept by concept and only
gets added on bit by bit inthese layers.
But there's this reallyfascinating thing.
I've got to tell you that whenwe pass a threshold, this really
peculiar thing happens to us wecompletely forget we didn't

(18:40):
know it before and that it washard for us to understand.
So that makes us completelyimpatient with everyone who
hasn't know it before and thatit was hard for us to understand
.
So that makes us completelyimpatient with everyone who
hasn't got it yet, because weforget that.
And that's the thing I tellpeople when you get it, just
because you can see it.
It's that whole theory of mind.
At our and our kind ofpropensity we tend to think we
could mind read people that whatI see, you can see.

(19:02):
We learn things in layers.
It's hard for us.
We need those light bulbmoments or those threshold
moments of being able to passthrough over a threshold of
understanding something, andthen we forget it was difficult
to know in the first place yeah,well, that's really, really
true.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
For example, I have four sons.
They're grown up now, butgrowing up teaching them to tie
their shoes and it'd be like soobvious to us no, just watch me,
you'll.
You can learn to tie this shoeright.
But think how hard that is fora four or five year old because
first of all, he's got to learnto manipulate the string and
then he's got to learn to crossthe string and then he's got to
remember to yes, you know,whatever way you do it, two

(19:41):
bunny ears or one bunny orwhatever the theory.
Yeah, um, having that patience,you know, because by the time
you get that fourth kid, you'relike I'm getting your velcro
shoes, I don't care, you canwear them the rest of your life,
because you're just havingpatience for someone else's
learning journey.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Um, that's a really great thing that you're yeah,
and and because we told someone,we just assume that they know
it.
It's just like no, they need alot of repetit, they need to
actually experience themselves.
Humans are like that.
Our superpower is, is our,we're completely adaptable, uh,
creative creatures.
And if we didn't kind of how ourbrains work and in fact that's

(20:18):
what gets us in trouble withhorses is how our minds work and
how much we think of things.
We think horses think like usand they don't.
We're so full of these thoughtsand these kind of urges and
emotions of things because we'reprogrammed to like, we've
evolved to like, adapt, adapt,adapt.
So we can never be happybecause we've got this instinct

(20:40):
to keep changing, changingbuilding, changing, worrying
about things, wanting to fixthat problem, that problem.
So, yeah, I hope that makespeople a little bit more patient
with humans.
But I love reflecting on my ownnaivety and ignorance, even
though it mortifies me when Ithink and I suppose that's

(21:01):
what's giving me purpose behindwhat I do and probably makes me
a little bit different in theequestrian world, is my
understanding of the humancreature, the human side of it,
and having that fascinationabout how humans learn about
horses and like people, likehearing my story because, like
mine is so bad.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
Mine is really bad, we all have our stories, no
doubt about that.
Mine is really bad.
We all have our stories, nodoubt about that.
Um, yeah, I have a mare that,um, I've had almost two years
now, maybe three, three, two,three anyway.
Um, they're from the wilds ofmontana, they're not mustangs,
they're morgans, but they werepassionate, they're out in giant
pastures and not handle a lot.
And she came as a three-year-oldand, um, worried about

(21:42):
everything here, and she left aherd of 70 horses down to a herd
of four or five.
So then now they have, you know, 24, seven freedom.
I mean, they're not stalled oranything like that.
But she was worried you know,there's not enough horses here
to protect us and I was afraidof her because she was defensive
with her hind end and I was soworried she was going to always
keep me in there.
And then I just made up thiswhole story, this whole story

(22:02):
about what she's thinking andwhat she's doing, cause I was
afraid, you know.
And then, like all every time Iwork with her, I'm afraid.
And then she's like, what arewe afraid of?
Because she feels that and mytrainer, who I'm, tiffany
Stauffer, who I've had on mypodcast, actually I'm really
blessed, she lives nearby Camecomes out to help me.
Know, the horse is like, yeah,no anxiety, I'm fine, nothing's

(22:24):
bothering me.
And then it's that realizationoh, it's, it's me, I'm.
I'm just projecting any scaryexperience I ever had getting
hurt with a horse on this horsewho's never hurt me, okay, she's
never done a thing, yeah, youknow.
And then she got over her worrywith time.
You know, she got over herworry about, like, the new
environment because I gave her alot of time with no pressure to

(22:45):
be there.
You know so.
And now it's like, I'm notafraid of you anymore.
I'm going to have common sense,but I can read your body
language, you know, I can readwhat you're doing.
I'm not afraid of you anymore.
Now, when she gets around mytrainer, she's even better,
because Tiffany has no agendaand just, you know, like,
understands her.
She feels like, oh, it's you,thank goodness, this other

(23:05):
person, but I, I love watchingthat.
I'm aware of it now, and she'sthe only one of my seven horses
that I even, like, was afraid of.
You know, it's like why did Iproject all this human gunk onto
this horse, who's really quitesimple, you know, she's just
really simple.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
So I get it.
Sorry, who's really quitesimple, you know, she's just
really simple, so I get it.
Sorry, that was that's justbeing human as well.
That you didn't trust her,that's the thing.
You didn't trust her and youhad to build.
So what you've been, you'vebeen hurt.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
You never ever get hurt when you're young.
And then you get older and youget hurt and you like, get
really anxious about ridingagain, you know, and you're like
, because I broke my pelvis on ahorse, um, couple a couple
years ago now, um, and you know,I recovered, I'm fine, right,
but I had that anxiety inside ofme like I can't afford to get
hurt again.
That was really bad getting hurt, you know and uh no, that's the

(23:57):
one, the one that I was afraidof is not trained yet.
She's five, or coming five.
So, no, she's five.
So Tiffany's going to be helpingme and we're going to start her
really, really slow, andTiffany's going to ride her
first yeah, no, that's reallywise, that's being really
sensible yeah, but this other, Ijust bought a horse a couple
months ago, a month or two ago,and I gave her plenty of time to
settle in another Morgan I haveall Morgans and, um, she's 100%

(24:22):
like I'm with you, fellas, Imean just so giving so sweet and
I ride.
Like I'm with you, fellas, Imean just so giving so sweet,
and I ride her and I'm like Ifeel absolutely wonderful riding
you, like she's giving me backmy safety, my confidence, my you
know everything that I needed.
So I will feel better about theone.
That's more scary, right, andit's all human.
These horses are just beinghorses, you know.

(24:42):
So I really resonated and that'swhy I wanted to talk to you and
have you as our guest, becauseI was resonating with what you
were saying and your storybrings true.
So thank you for that.
Yeah, okay, so if we wereafraid?
So one of my questions for youis how do we build confidence
and us then to project on ourhorses?
How do we build that confidence?

(25:03):
What's your advice for that?

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Oh well, the thing is you've got to understand about
confidence and what's actuallymaking you feel vulnerable with
a horse is very multifaceted.
There's a number of factors andthat's why it's just not one
thing and that's why someonewill get benefit from something
and someone will try to do thesame thing, like, just say,
getting riding lessons.
People say, well, go get someriding lessons and you know that

(25:26):
might work for someone but itdoesn't work for somebody else.
And it's because you've got tounderstand what triggers that
sensation of vulnerabilitywithin you.
So it can be I kind of break itdown and how I like to explain
people is from like an equationthat confidence equals your

(25:48):
sense of competence okay, withthe horse multiplied by trust,
which is your sense ofreliability in the horse,
multiplied by time.
Now, what time means?
Time's important because timeand repetition makes something
familiar, and that is veryimportant to get is a sense of

(26:09):
familiarity with a horse, andfamiliarity that you're able to
competently handle that horsedoing that thing or that
situation, and familiar with howreliable your horse is right.
However, there's things thatinterfere with that being able
to grow that sense of competenceinside you as well as a sense

(26:32):
of reliability inside you.
There's things that caninterfere with that.
That's what needs to beunderstood.
The first thing is a common onecan be a fear phobia.
You can get fear.
So if you have had an accident,your mind's going to grab onto
that that this is a dangerousthing.
So your subconscious self isgoing to want to protect you.
And that's what the sensationof fear and discomfort is,

(26:55):
because it's your subconsciousself trying to keep you alive
and it's saying to you step away, step away from the dangerous
thing.
And people can.
What their brain latches ontoas being unsafe is very
fascinating.
Sometimes it can be just themounting a horse, sometimes it
might be cantering a horse,sometimes it might be riding in

(27:16):
a certain area.
Or, as one of my clients, mostfascinating case I ever had was
a lady who had an accident andshe'd actually fallen off and
she'd gone unconscious.
So she doesn't remember theaccident at all.
So she felt, nothing aboutgetting back on.
That was fine until she had toturn right and the horse going

(27:37):
right and the sensation of thehorse going right through her
body made her panic.
So that's what her brain hadactually latched on to, um, as
being the dangerous thing.
So you have to navigate thatand what you've got to do you've
got to show your that part ofyour brain that you are safe,
that you are safe.
It's got to have that.
Familiarity has to click in andyou've got to repeat things.

(27:59):
And I just get people just togroup repeating, repeating
repair and really acknowledgingthat feeling inside them that's
being generated, because yourbrain will down regulate
something if it's got evidencethat you're okay.
So it's finding what that isand consciously targeting it so
that you can, so that your braincan identify that this is a
safe activity, it's no longerdangerous.

(28:20):
But then there can be otherthings that are really
interesting.
There are things that caninterfere with your sense of
competence and gettingreliability, and these are like
what which I call.
Inside us we get hidden falsebeliefs about ourself I'm not
good enough, I'm not safe enough, I'm not likable enough.
There's all these things thatreally hit at your um ideas of

(28:44):
self-efficacy, about yourself,about being able to do things,
and they're like your, like yourchildhood wounds or or things
you've accidentally learned inlife.
Uh, things like which can bequite destructive.
Is, it's not and it's notuncommon for this thing, this
feeling of responsibility thatyou have for the emotions of
others, which leads to peoplepleasing behavior.

(29:06):
People pleasing is quite aninsidious thing that a lot of
women can have, you know,thinking if we behave in a
certain way, don't upsetanything, we'll be liked, there
will be no danger.
And what happens?
Because this gets triggeredinside us, we start people
pleasing the horse in our humanway, you see, and that doesn't
help any horse, because thatwhole thing of wanting back off,

(29:29):
keep the horse happy, keep thehorse happy does not actually
keep the horse happy, because itgives the horse nothing to
follow or understand what it'sdoing.
So of course, it feelsuncomfortable about a human
that's shrinking all the timefrom them, um, and not being
clear, so that can sabotagethings.
Yeah, yeah, now there's someother big ones look, there's

(29:50):
quite a few of them, uh.
But there's other things thattrigger sense of vulnerability
in your body.
Now this can be illness, injury, because you don't feel that
sense of balance on a horse, andthis is a big one for us women.
It's only something that Iactually realized in the last
couple of years because of myage myself and the people around

(30:13):
me and the age they're goingthrough is perimenopause,
because what it does on manylevels, because it changes the
sensation, because you see, weget triggered, not just what's
coming on the outside, butwhat's happening to us on the
inside and what happens when ourhormones change is it actually
changes around or you actuallycan lose muscle, so your sense

(30:41):
of balance and your sense of howgravity affects you and
everything completely changes,and so your sense of balance on
a horse completely alters.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
I had not thought about that.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Oh, it's massive.
It is massive.
And I go look at all my clientswhen did you lose your
confidence?
When did you, all my clients?
When did you lose yourconfidence?
When did you start havingproblems?
When did you have your accident?
It's all around the same timeand it made me tie these
together.
Now I need someone to do someproper research on it.
But you know, as being someoneat the coalface, a practitioner

(31:12):
in this area, any research areout there.
I see that there is acorrelation.
It just needs to be, of course,investigated.
But there's a lot that goes onin a woman's body during the
changes fluctuation, hormones.
It goes on a physiological level, plus also psychological level,
plus also you.
Everything's getting out ofwhack, which is setting off your
nervous system in terms ofthings, because it's all

(31:34):
completely changing from thefamiliar, and the familiar is
your comfort zone.
And when you, when your hormoneprofile changes, your entire
body gets out of whack and thisthen changes the way that your
body responds to balance on thehorse or things like that.
You can have overreactions orjust your heart rate going up
abnormally.
It all triggers you and it allgets interpreted by your brain

(31:56):
as fear, right, or fear ordiscomfort like that.
So yeah, going intoperimenopause and menopause is
massive, and that and your horseriding and how you feel about
your horse and your confidencelevels around the horse are also
one of the casualties for thatand, again, like everything else

(32:17):
to do with menopause, becausewe don't talk about it enough is
that it becomes get somethingthat gets as, um, you know, it
gets hampered along the waybecause of that that's
fascinating.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
so my question then is so someone who's older gone
through it?
Do you adapt?
I would hope that you wouldadapt, yes well, see, this is
the thing it's like.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
This is what you've got to understand.
You learn to be confident andtrust a horse.
You learn it because youactually learn to not trust them
and not be confident that youcan reverse it.
That's why I see it as anequation.
You've got to target it.
So, as soon as you know so whatit is with my book that I've

(33:01):
actually got a copy of it herebecause I was just making an
audio book of it at the moment.
That's my book and it's only alittle book.
Can you see that I deliberatelymade it little because I want
someone to sit down and read itin one hit.
And can I tell you it was veryhard getting it that concise, to
try to hit at the main points.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
But it's been able to .
We'll definitely have links tothe book and stuff.
We'll have it in the show notes, for sure.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah, yeah, and it will actually be.
I've got another edition thatwill be coming out as well
because of more alert, Like thisdoesn't have in there the stuff
about menopause.
Yet I've just got I just titleit under aging of what happens
when you age and kind of thing,but menopause puts that on
steroids.
So what you've got to do isyou've got to understand all the

(33:42):
factors which are impactingyour sense of competence with
the horse.
All of them.
What are they right?
Oh, your sense of reliabilitywith the horse.
So I believe in you know,increasing your skills.
You've got to target your ownhealth Like you've like.
Just say with me I'm veryconscious, I do a lot of

(34:05):
strength training, all thethings that have actually
documented evidence of helpingwith menopause symptoms.
Strength training is a massiveone, Okay.

(34:28):
Strength training is a massiveone, Okay.
Looking at your diet, you knowPilates, yoga is powerful things
.
Lifting some weights powerfulthings.
All that, too, you've got to.
You've got to change whatyou've done previously.
I recommend everyone.
So what I focus on when I helppeople is I take them and their
horse through what I callrebooting, which is just
basically retrain theirfoundation.
Okay, when I hand people thoseskills right to be able to do

(34:49):
that.
That's empowering.
There's a principle called thePareto Principle and it says
that there's about 20% of theoverall skill set of a
particular job.
You use 80% of the time.
Well, the skills that you useto put a foundation of a horse
and start a horse is that 80%.

(35:10):
When I hand them that and Ihand them the feeling of being
able to influence I don't likethe word control or even
training can be looked down upon.
We're always influencing ourhorses and our animals, even
beyond, when it's not training,because people just look at
training and they look atpositive or negative
reinforcement and all these typeof things.
No, no, in everything we dowith our animals, we are

(35:33):
influencing them, and so when Igive key tools to be able to
modify behavior, it gives themthat greater sense of influence.
So that feeds into that.
So I always recommend that.
So there's things that you'vegot to.
So basically, there's thingsthat you can target towards the
horse, like your horse skills,and there's also non-horse

(35:55):
things you can do, you know.
So you know a lot of people getbenefit from hypnotherapy or
doing.
I did a great.
I got a podcast myself calledcanna therapy and I did a
podcast with um, a psychologistthat actually practices EMDR
therapy, which is a type oftrauma therapy yes, and I

(36:18):
personally had a lot of benefitfrom that.
So it's really what it is,Barbara.
It's all about care of yourself.
It's care of yourself it'sphysical and mental and
emotional care of yourself islike your foundation to then
build on top your skills to beable to influence the horse and

(36:42):
your understanding of the horsethings that I was saying I was
lacking before with the scooter,not having any idea that this
will transform your confidenceand trust with the horse.
And like, I am total livingproof of that because by severe
accident, that's really I'vedone that to on a bigger scale

(37:03):
and I've gone from yourquintessential amateur to a
professional and I help peopleall around the world, and so
that's pretty cool.
So if I can do it likeseriously, if I can do it like
seriously, if I can do it,anyone can do it.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
Right, it's attainable.
Yeah, absolutely.
This is really profound.
I had no idea of the connection.
I reflect back and the time inmy life.
I'm like yeah yeah, so I get it.
And also, you know, it'sinteresting to me, I think, the
most frustrating time at leastmy peers when I read, you know,

(37:37):
other people's comments andthings.
They get a horse, finally theystart riding because they
finally have the money or thetime.
You know, maybe they didn't andthey get to a certain point and
they want to get better, andthen everything falls apart for
them and they feel so much shamebecause, like I'm not, I'm not,
you know, my horse doesn'tfollow me around, or whatever
the latest, because, like I'mnot, I'm not, you know, my horse
doesn't follow me around, orwhatever the latest.

(37:57):
something makes them think theway it's supposed to be.
I mean, of course, we're allgoing to be kind and build
relationship that's what thisshow is about with all animals,
right, that's not what I'msaying, it's just the um.
You know, I don't know whatit's like for men, cause I don't
I'm not inside men's heads atall but, um, I just know a lot
of women especially.
They get to a certain age.
They learn a lot of things.
You know, like new information.

(38:17):
We're going to go, and then weget out there and then we think
we've messed up, you know.
And then we feel shame, andthen we're like I don't want to
try anymore.
And so by saying like, look,you can help yourself get
through this and that'll helpyour horse by understanding
what's going on, that'sgratifying.
It's like, oh good, there'shope.

(38:39):
I'm not the only one that feelsthis way.
This is how I can work on itand that way, you know, it'd be
great to like visit your.
You know, if people areinterested, we'll have all of
Shelly's information availableand how she can help.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
And do you to America to do clinics?
Can you get your view?
Most likely will.
It's something that I've got.
There's so much.
I've built so many communitieshere in Australia.
It's like, when are you goingto come to America or go to New
Zealand or go to Europe?
And the thing is like when Ifind I've got to find a spot to
put it in because it will meanone of my communities here would
miss out.
But I do plan on because I'vemade a lot of connections in the
states, um, and America is oneplace that I would love to visit

(39:18):
.
Well, there's certainly a needand I believe, a reception.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
I think people are just becoming more and more, uh,
wanting to have a betterrelationship with their horses,
with their dogs, with you know,um, I think they're making it.
It seems to me like making aneffort, uh.
So, yeah, but we could talk toyou for hours, but we've got
some more things to cover,that's okay.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, I'm just, you know you're worth another
podcast for sure, becausethere's just I'm already like
wow, you know, yeah, no, there'sso many avenues you can go,
when, when you can look and Isaid this is what I'm so
fortunate about, but also,barbara, everyone can then feel
good because you got to rememberthat I had this knowledge, so I
had this, and the reason whyI've been able to be accelerated

(40:03):
in being out of my horse skillsis because I had this massive
background in learning.
So when, I worked out thathorses just learned as well.
It was like that silos.
My world kind of collided andthat's why I was able to go so
far.
But you've got to remember thatme here wasn't expert in

(40:24):
learning but was not teaching ortraining my horse, because I
didn't see it Like.
That's how bad, that's howignorant I was, that I couldn't
even apply my own knowledgeuntil it got thrown in my face.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
I think we all have experiences like that.
I'm a much more better dogtrainer and I don't even train
dogs, I just train animal actorsfor set, you know, for like
commercials and videos, and Itrain animals for set.
I'm much more in tune with howthe dog is feeling than I was 20
years ago Not that I was aterrible thing and I never
mistreated them, but I'm muchmore.
I keep learning and learningand learning, and that's just

(41:04):
better for me.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
That's your expertise that keeps getting laid on.
That's why.
that's because you're an expert,and when you're an expert,
things that you see become veryeasy, and then your brain's got
the capacity to see more andmore and more and that's what I
was saying about thosethresholds is that someone has
to start off seeing simplethings, and I remember I used to
just be able to see a behaviorin a horse or a dog, so I just a

(41:28):
behavior, that's all I couldsee, and then I started seeing
all the color around thatbehavior.
You know, and then you learnmore about it.
So you get to interpret it more.
Yeah, you get to interpretdeeper and deeper and then your
expertise kicks in and it putseverything on kind of automatic
pilot, so you can just seesomething and know it because

(41:48):
it's going in through the fastercycle through your brain of
being able to detect it.
It's very cool.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Well, just briefly, your book Buying and Supporting
the New Horse, the EssentialGuide.
You know, a lot of people, atleast it seems to me get a new
horse and, within a couple ofdays, like we're going to get on
him and ride him, and now, ohwait, he's not like he was.
Well, what happened?
You sold me a bad horse.
Well, of course not.
You just took him away from hiswhole life and expected him to,

(42:16):
you know, be able to, and somehorses are really stoic and
they're going to hide with youknow, kind of like just go, okay
, that's my life, but otherhorses are like no, I need a
little time and they all deservesome time.
So what is your?
You know?
Just kind of briefly, cause Ithink we should all go get the
book.
I'm going to get the book.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Well at the book.
Um, well, I've got to be honest, barbara, hold tight on that
book because I'm just in thematter of re, actually re.
Um, because I said I've learnedmore.
I'm actually adding to it.
In fact, I created anotherresource because a couple well
back in, back in July god I wasgoing to say a couple of weeks
ago, it was actually a fewmonths ago I wrote a blog that
went viral because I, I and Iwas just getting frustrated by
people just not getting it andbecause I come from a health

(42:59):
background, I just sometimes mybiggest articles that I that I
write are things that I write inlike five minutes, and I wrote
this, this article, in fiveminutes.
I called it new home syndrome.
Yeah, new home syndrome youmight have even found me from it
because it went totally viral.
It still gets shared hundredsof times per day.

(43:20):
It's really quite fascinating.
But it got people's attentionand it's interesting because
I've written about this beforebut it was something about
giving it, uh, giving it like amedical sounding name that made
everyone beeline for it.
And that's interesting aboutpeople.
But people don't understand andit's a combination of not

(43:42):
understanding the horse as aspecies and how they're wired
and not understanding stress andhow stress compounds and how
stress can become chronic andstress can lead to other you
know pathologies orphysiological or psychological
problems down the track, and soI coined this term new home
syndrome and it went off and itwas all about to understand that

(44:05):
we take a horse that is wiredto be a herd animal that works
as a collective in the wild.
That's how they've evolved.
They're a herd animal, theywork as a team.
It's none of this dominantstuff.
It's they work as they work asa team.
It's none of this dominantstuff.
They work as a team as theirfamilies, and I recommend
everyone out there.
The greatest thing, barbara, Iever did was go and spend a week

(44:26):
trekking in the bushlands herein Australia observing wild
horses.
It blew my mind.
Do you know what that made mefeel like?
Do you know what I felt?
I felt like I had worked withsomeone for 40 years and had
never bothered asking them wherethey lived, who their family
members was and what they did onthe weekend.

(44:47):
I treated this animal like awork colleague and I knew about
them, but not really about them.
It was the most touchingexperience to see that horses.
They live in families and theyare truly families and they work
together, regardless whetherthey're a bachelor band or a
family group of stallion maresand young horses.

(45:07):
It was very touching, butthat's how horses have evolved.
Yet we go and pluck them out,isolate them and do things to
them that is completely andabsolutely unnatural and have no
concept of the ramificationsthat has to that animal.
And in fact, the more you learnabout the horse, the more I
learn about them, the more I'lltell you that they are the most

(45:30):
gentle animal on the planet andthat what we do to them is
extreme, extreme, um, and wethink we know them in that state
and we don't.
And I say it's like this.
It's like it's like aliens comedown to earth.
They go to a lunatic asylum.
They walk around for a bit,look at the poor people that are

(45:52):
in the lunatic asylum and goback up to their planet and go,
yeah, I checked out the humans,the humans, yeah, I know all
about them.
And it's like, yeah, no, youknow, you can see the ones that
are that are, you know, veryaffected by stress.
That is not a good kind of wayto think.
You know humans by looking athumans that are in an extreme
situation.
So that's what I said we don't.

(46:14):
We think we know them.
So we take these horses thathave been, that are at a home
where everything's familiar.
They've been able to cope withthis unnatural situation they've
been wired for in their lifebecause they've got familiar
with it, how they're handled,what they eat, everything like
that.
Because they've got familiarwith it, how they're handled,
what they eat, everything likethat, who they've connected with
.
Because people think, eventhough a horse is isolated in

(46:36):
the yard, that they're notconnecting with the other horses
.
They are, they absolutely are.
And we only know that when wetake two horses to a show and
they become stuck to each otherlike glue and we get annoyed by
that.
But they're just horses beinghorses.
Anyway, we take that animal andwe go completely change its

(46:57):
environment, an animal that hasbeen wired to live in one spot
and to know that spot really,really well, so that any small
change in that environmentthey're onto, because is that a
rock or is that a big cat?

Speaker 1 (47:10):
That's what they're onto, because is that a rock or
is that a big cat right?

Speaker 2 (47:11):
that's what they're wired for.
Then we go and completely turntheir world upside down and set
their sensory system on fire asit tries to work out am I safe,
am I safe, am I safe?
And try to navigate that andthat amount of stress and that,
even if you just see thecognitive load on that sensory

(47:32):
system to try to process allthat right.
And then you got the othereffect that their um food or
change the diet and their guts.
You know their horse'sdigestive system is the core and
it's one thing.
You've got to understand theimpact on that and their hindgut
and how that drasticallyaffects everything from there.
And this horse is going throughthis absolute tumultuous

(47:57):
experience and we don'tappreciate it and we've got to
manage them through that andthat's why, of course.
So what happens is?
I worked out that besides, youknow all the people that were
coming towards me I couldcorrelate with like kind of the
age of perimenopause and thatwas that I was correlating.
Also, the horses that peoplewere having trouble with were
horses that were really they'dacquired them in recent times

(48:21):
and they hadn't been able to geton with the horse and they all
would tell a story of how thehorse was misrepresented to them
or you know they didn't buywhat they expected, etc.
And the thing is, is that thathorse that they went and trialed
, or they rode beforehand, whenthey rode it after, the ghost of

(48:41):
their owner was still on thehorse, when the horse was in its
own environment and could copewith your little differences?
That when you take that horseout of there and you put it in
chaos where it knows nothing,you're riding and you're dealing
with a stressed version of thathorse.
That is not that horse, that isa stress.
That's like someone judging youon the worst day of your life

(49:02):
and saying, well, they're alittle difficult to get on with.
Look at them all tense, youknow it's like we don't get it.
And so, just like withconfidence and trust and
building it within yourself, howyou got to be conscious of that
so you can put a spotlight onit, so you can be strategic.
Right, when you get a new horsethat comes to your home, right,

(49:24):
you've got to stop them gettingstuck in this swirl of chronic
stress which can causeramifications down the track.
You got to manage it andthere's a number of things that
you can do about that.
Just be aware of it number onethat this horse is going through
a lot and some horses are lessaffected by it than others.
And there's a number ofinherent traits to each
individual horse how muchthey've been exposed to the

(49:46):
world before their own inherentabilities to process sensory
information, because they're allvarying abilities for that.
If all horses were the same anddidn't varying their ability to
process their environments andstress, they wouldn't live in a
herd, they'd be a lone animal.
But they use each other andthey're knitted together by
their differences.
That's why they knit togetheris weaknesses and strengths.

(50:10):
So they're all different in howthey handle it.
Some can process it faster,quicker and and come to a
conclusion and work out they'resafe, and some can't.
So, um, you're all dealing withwith the horses going through
that.
So, being conscious of that andmanage it through that to allow
your horse that new homesyndrome's, you know going to be
a small transient thing of afew days, all going to be going

(50:33):
on years and years and yearsuntil you have behavioral
problems and and you know thehorse has terrible laminitis or
terrible gut issues or you know,then it's musculature and
everything's gone to pot, allbecause of the chronic stress it
, uh, the stress that initiallygot triggered on that move yeah,
oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Um, yeah, I do like that.
I've learned to let horses havetime.
Yes, absolutely, I give themtime, yeah, and uh, so it's it's
, it's pretty fun and it's funto watch them work as a herd and
work it out.
You know, yeah, if it's where,and uh, the friends they make,
and I mean you always knew that,but it's like being with more
open eyes yes, when you see it,it's just like that's so

(51:14):
necessary and just also.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
This is the other thing, barbara, that I'm very
into, which people are justoblivious to, absolutely
oblivious to that.
Horses link, um, you know,certain things to people, places
, things.
So, just because you know, weall think, oh, the horse leads,
we just lead it and it's like no, we all lead differently, we

(51:37):
all put a halter on differently,we all feel differently on
their back, we all pick up thereins differently.
We're all different and somehorses are more subjective about
that differences than others,because what we've got to
understand is that we'recommunicating to them via when
we're working with a halter onthem or riding them.

(51:59):
We're working on a touch, formof language, and we all touch,
we all feel different.
Right, we all feel different.
So I say you've got tointroduce your way and your
signature, your touch signature,to that horse or your visual.
We also use like a signlanguage with them as well, that
they're learning to read andunderstand what we expect them
to do.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
And we just take these horses and we just assume
they know.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
We don't even think that that they're like.
It's like taking someone that'shearing impaired and just
assuming they know what we ourown form of like you know, our
own form of sign language.
It's like no, no, no, it's gotto be.
You've got to standardize itfor them.
You've got to introduceyourself and this is the way we
do things and stop that horsebeing confronted and trying to

(52:47):
work you out, as it's trying towork out everything else as well
, and so people don't know thatthey get into a conflict with
the horse.
They then say this horsedoesn't know anything.
It was like right, it justdoesn't know you and your way,
Take some time.
You've got to pretend itdoesn't know anything.
This is how I lead, this is howwe tie, this is how I pick up
your feet, this is how I putyour tack on on.

(53:09):
This is how I ask you to change.
So I ask you to go and you'repretending they know nothing and
you're teaching it to them andyou're imprinting yourself on
them.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
You've got to imprint yourself yeah, brilliant, yeah,
no, I understand that.
I with the young horses, um, uh, they hadn't had their feet
handled a lot, because there'sthree young horses I got from
montana, yeah, so the younghorse, I was very proud of
myself.
I could walk up to thatyearling and out in the pasture,
no halter, no lead, you know,and I could get her to pick up
all four feet and I was verypleased, like you know.
Oh, look, she trusts me becauseshe'll lift her feet up out

(53:39):
here.
And then, when it came time tohave the farrier come, she was
like I can't lift up my feet.
And we said, gosh, I've beenworking with her every day
picking up her feet.
And Tiffany was there helpingme, the trainer, and she said
where were you doing it?
And I said, well, out in thepasture, did you have a halter?
No, she said everything isdifferent.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
You have a halter on top.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
You're in the barn.
Now Molly here is going to trimher feet.
Molly's a new person.
Everything is different.
You can't expect her tounderstand A means B over here,
that it's the same.
That's a human thing that wegeneralize our learning.
Yeah, so I just you know youand Tiffany would get along
great because you're absolutelyon the same page.
Same thing happens, but in adifferent way.

(54:22):
Because dogs are different thanhorses.
Because I'll go work a dog onset and a dog is highly trained
by his owner, right, he's gotall the tricks and he's trained.
Lovely dog Enjoys being on setbecause he's going to get cheese
and it's going to be fun.
And you know, and I'll, I'llstart working with the dog
because I know what thecameraman or the photographer
wants.
So I'll work with the dog and Iwill give off just my own body

(54:46):
language, like I don't, I don'tchange it for each dog's signal,
what he's learned.
Okay, and the dogs?
Because they're wireddifferently.
They are wired to want to workcooperatively in a group, they
want to work with people, theywant to please you.
This is how we socialize themand how they're wired, god
figures out.
Oh, okay, I get it.
You're asking me differently.
But if I sit, I'm going to geta piece of cheese and they learn

(55:07):
it like.
And the owner goes like well, Idon't, he doesn't.
You know, this is how you teachhim this and that.
And I went like no, he's soquick, he'll figure me out and
we'll have a good relationshipin a matter of moments.
And, and you know, um, he'll,he'll grasp what I'm asking him.
So I adapt to the dog.
Each one, but also the dog, atthe same time, is adapting to me
.
Yeah, I'm curious are horsesable?

(55:31):
Maybe they don't do it in thesame way, but what you're saying
is give the horse time to adaptto the way you're doing it.
You know, like, like, give himthe time to think instead of, uh
, getting angry that he didn'tread your language, like
speaking to him in a foreignlanguage, almost yeah, and can
you?

Speaker 2 (55:47):
I'm going to answer these, barbara, but can you
remind me that I want to ask youa question?
Because I really want to askyou a question.
Do I think horses can adapt?
Horses can adapt and they canbe on the lookout to adapt if
they've learnt how to learn fromyou and how to work you out and
they work out.
Say, in the first sessions witha horse, I'm also teaching them

(56:09):
that I communicate with themand they can work me out.
So after this is repeated a fewtimes, they start working out
that, ah, you're trying to tellyou're, you're communicating
with your, I can and I can workyou out Right, and you see them
start hunting it, right, you cansee them be aware and it's like
, ah, this is different, don'tknow, but I can work this out.
What do you want, human, what doyou want?
You can see that, but it's notlike a real, you've got to and

(56:33):
normally what happens?
That's because I'm aware of itMost people are just assuming
the horse knows and of coursethe horse just gives up on
people and you can see that thehorses just they dissociate from
themselves until the backcorner of the paddock, into the
distance, because they're havingto shut out the human in front
of them because they're just.
They're just a wall of, they'rejust a bundle of chaos that

(56:54):
they're having to tolerate andtry to work it out.
But this is my question.
I got to you, barbara, becauseI have a belief that it's our
relationship with dogs that canactually give us a false sense
of competency with horses right.
And I'm going to tell you what Imean.
It's just like a horse.
I feel like you've got toreally prove to that horse that

(57:19):
you can be navigated and you areno harm.
That's what I feel like has tobe up front to most of horses,
because most of horses will comewith a bit of baggage.
Maybe if you've had a horse andI have had these horses as well
that you've had from day one,that learned that you're okay
and that's all right.
But the vast majority of horsesare a bit skeptical of human
beings.
Unlike dogs, they're a littlebit more hardwired to maybe, uh,

(57:41):
to be, have an affinity for us.
However, there's this otherthing, barbara, because I
believe that, um, dogs and justtell me if I'm wrong I want once
you just don't agree with me,you just tell me how it is.
But dogs, when they get alittle bit worried, are more
likely to fall into a bit of anappeasement behaviour with a
human and we associate all thatjumping and licking and kissing

(58:02):
and all that.
It's like, oh, they love us,they love us, they love us.
That makes us feel good.
But with horses, of course,when you make them feel
threatened, they do the completeopposite.
They're like backtracking atyou or they don't.
They're not flipping into thatnecessarily those appeasement
behaviors that we don't know ifthey're still stress, but we
interpret them with our humaneyes as being love and affection

(58:25):
and want and need and all thosethings we love.
Yet the horse, when they getstressed, will normally flip
into either flight or a bit offight you know, or they'll shut
down and we feel the rejectionand failure from that.
But the dog, the dog is tellingus, even though we're still
stressing it, it's having thisopposite effect.
Is there any?
I have this.

(58:45):
That's my theory, because Ibelieve that dogs actually mess
up our relationships with ourhorse because they're so.
Dogs are so such gifts from thegods you know of so kind to us.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
No, what are your thoughts on that?
I'm not an expert on that atall, but I think the behaviors
that I've talked to wouldabsolutely agree, because those
are the signs of stress that I'mlooking for on set.
When the dog starts to pant andand that's a sign of anxiety,
okay, uh, when his, his ears goback, it's a sign, you know, he
looks soft and friendly.
Where it's a sign of stress andwhere you're exactly right

(59:19):
about that, the dogs areultimate people pleasers.
How will I, you know, what canI do and how can I please you,
at least most of the time,unless you get into behaviors
like fear, biting and aggression, which which comes from lots of
things.
But with horses, you're right,horses don't sit there and give
you the googly eyes and bow downand show submissive behaviors.

(59:41):
No, no, and they show affectionin a much different way, if at
all.
I mean, they do.
I do think they show affection,but it's more of a horsey way
and it's much more subtle.
Uh, yeah, so, and I don't, youknow, I don't know, I just I
know which horses really like todo that and the other ones who
I respect and and they're justnot so much into it and that's

(01:00:02):
okay.
Like, don't run up and hugstrange horses, don't hug them.
Yes, don't put their nose.
Those poor horses, how wouldyou like it if I wouldn't grab
at your nose?
That's like a privilege, youknow?
Um.
So I teach them with the littleones that, like, just wait, put
your hand out flat, let themsmell you, you know, because all
they want to do is pet thatvelvet nose, and we all get that
.
But that has to be withpermission from the horse.

(01:00:24):
You know yes and that takes time.
Um, so you're, I think you'reabsolutely right and and that we
get frustrated that my dog iswhining.
Yeah, he knows the clockDaylight saving has messed him
up and he's like no, I knowyou're a half hour late, you're
fine, you're fine, but anyway,yes, exactly what you're saying

(01:00:47):
I think is true.
Dogs are.
See, because I trained cats aswell and I don't train cats
because you can't train cats.
You can encourage cats to do thebehavior you want and the cat's
going to do it or he's notgoing to do it and there's no
way to be like you can't forceit.
You probably could force a dog,but it wouldn't be kind.
Certainly can't force a cat.
So it's all a shape, it's all ashaped agreement.

(01:01:10):
You sit here and you wear thissilly costume because that's
what they want you to do for,you know, sell a Halloween
sweater piece of Turkey andwe're having fun, you know.
And so I choose my cats reallycarefully and I also make it
like and I also go, cats done,or the same thing Dog is done.
You know, like I call it, Ijust go go.

(01:01:30):
We're not going to push thisanimal over threshold.
You talked about thresholds ina different way because these
are stress thresholds.
So, and the same thing withhorses.
Then we have to be respectfulof of who they are as horses,
but we expect them to be likedogs.
That's kind of the point youwere making.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
That's right and that's because I used to
consider myself a real animal.
I identify as a real animallover and an animal person
because my dogs love me, my catslove me.
I had all this evidence.
And then what's happening withmy horse?
And it just kind of added tothe whole shame, feeling of
failure.
Whereas now with my eyes, evenabout dogs, it's like I had this

(01:02:12):
moment, like I was reading aPatricia McConnell book, on the
other end of the leash, which isa great book.
I think every person that ownsan animal should read that book.
And I'd come to the bit aboutthat horses, that dogs, that
we're primates and our naturalinclination is want to hug
things, kick things.
You know, grab it, hug it, andthat dogs don't necessarily like

(01:02:32):
that.
And I remember reading that andgoing that's interesting.
But then I got up and my dogwas next to me and I did my
automatic habit of hugging andkissing him and for the first
time I saw him recoil.
I saw him go like, and Iremember I stood back and I was
like oh my God, you don't likethat.
It was such a shock to see it.
It was such a shock.

(01:02:53):
So now I can see it.
No, and it was like, wow, youdon't like that.
And then I had to find it andof course I read and I studied
it.
It's just like what do theylike?
And I discovered that he lovesme touching him, you know under
here, and yeah, he taught methat.
But once you see it, you can'tunsee it of what I was
interpreting.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Very true, it's an ongoing struggle.
We run into this on set all thetime.
Okay, and I have to fight withthe clients.
Okay, we want the model to hugthe dog and I go.
Okay, I only have two or threedogs that actually sort of like
that and that's your onlychoices.
I'm not going to bring in somedog that might behave but he
won't like it.
I'm not going to do that to thedog.
You know it's not fair to thedog and so you know.

(01:03:36):
Your golden retriever tends totolerate that.
Some of them seem to reallylike it.
Your Jack Russell terrier notso much.
You know he's a different mind.
He's going to be doingsomething else.
But I fight that.
It's like they go.
We want to show, you know, theydon't understand that this
isn't the thing that dogsnecessarily like.
And then the worst part thathappens is they get someone who
doesn't like dogs and the doggoes okay, you want me to hug

(01:03:58):
him and he's hugging me and hehates me and it's just like.
You know why do you do this?
So I'm trying to educate myclients, but I won't.
I make it a general rule Like Ilike your shot, I like my job,
but I like my animals more andif you're asking me to do
something that stresses them out, you know you got it, we're not

(01:04:18):
going to do it, and so I'm.
I'm really lucky that theylisten.
I mean it's so much better.
But it's because I know better.
30 years ago I might've beenlike, yeah, hug the dog.
Just, he's fine, hug the dog,you know what I mean.
Like I've, I've learned.
So I carry, I carry bad, like,oh you know, I wish I had known,
but at least I grew and learned, you know and I want to get

(01:04:41):
better so but yeah well, um gosh, this has been so cool.
We didn't even get to the thosequestions I sent you, um, and I
don't want to take any more ofyour time, but I feel like you
answered a lot of them as as wewere talking, so I feel good
about that.
So, a, please come to UnitedStates.
I will host you here inWisconsin so I can be your
Midwest connection.
Okay, awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Yeah, that'd be great .

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
I just I think, oh my gosh, people would so bad,
especially in your angle, thatyou're talking about how women
and how we change and how wefeel and the guilt we carry, and
I think there's probably a lotof guys who are like what?

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
No, they wouldn't have an you know go over their
heads, not that they have to.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
It just made me feel a little bit better, like, wow,
that's right, because I relateand I'm sure you know, and now I
feel better.
Okay, so that's why I was alittle anxious.
Maybe my balance wasn't as good.
You know things like that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
Yeah, that's right.
Your habit of wiring gottweaked by it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Yeah, and I feel really great now having this
horse, that I'm building myconfidence back on.
Yeah, I mean, I really feel shewas a gift from God.
So you know I cry happy tearswhen I ride her because I feel
so much relief.
You know that's awesome, yeah,so thank you for that.
But first, so how do we findyou?
You have a wonderful podcastcalled Canter Therapy yeah,

(01:05:59):
canter Therapy podcast, andyou've got some books and you've
got this blog, so what's likethe clearinghouse.
How do we find you so we canget all in first and show up?

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Yes, so if you go to my website, which is wwwofcourse
all one word, which iscalmwillingconfidenthorsescomau,
because I'm in Australia, thenthat has all my details about me
, about my courses and resources, because I have courses and
resources, as well as my books.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
Well, this is great, because if we're not in
Australia, at least we canbenefit.
We can still do all this.
Yeah, yeah, I have a lot oftrouble with postage
internationally.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
The postage has just changed recently and it costs
twice as much as the book forthe postage to send it.
So I just make thingselectronic so people can like
download it themselves andaccess it.
So yes, I've got a lot ofresources and I write a lot of
um, a lot of blogs, um, I love Iwrite.
I write about my journey.
Actually, if you start at thestart of my blogs and read up,

(01:06:54):
you can kind of track myevolution in my understanding,
which is quite fascinating.

Speaker 1 (01:06:59):
Yeah, so I've got all that.
You're on social media too.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
Yeah, I'm on social media, yeah, so I just yeah, I'm
on Facebook, which is DrShelley Appleton, calm Willing,
confident Horses.
That's my page.
I then have a group called CalmWilling, confident Horses.
I do have a membership group,which is where people interact
with me.
So I had my courses, which youknow they're quite expensive
because people work with me,one-on-one with them but I

(01:07:23):
wanted to create something thatwas accessible to everybody.
So I created this membershipgroup that I still create lots
of resources for and I engagewith.
I've created this most beautifulcommunity of all these
different disciplines of peoplethat you know.
I'm able to get people togetherwhere we don't fight about
ideologies, even though peoplemight subscribe to ideologies.

(01:07:43):
We all respect that, so I likethat.
I'm able to create that kind ofenvironment.
Yeah, so that's my membershipsociety.
There's information on mywebsite and I'm also trying,
because I've got this insightinto human learning and a real
interest in how people learn towork with horses.
I've even got a course for thatas well for professionals or

(01:08:04):
people that are just interestedin learning the fascinating way
that people learn about horses.
So I have everyone othertrainers come and learn from me.
That's called my questioneducators program.
Um, so, yeah, that's.
That's quite an interestingthing that I do as well.
Uh, on an Instagram as well.
At at calm, willing, confidenthorses, I have a massive 180
people that follow me onInstagram.

(01:08:25):
Instagram's only somethingrecently that I've gone.
Okay, I've got to try to workthis out I don't know writing.
You see, I like long writing,essays and stuff like that.
But the world is not kind ofgetting that.
So it's like, okay, I'll adapt,I'll create some content for um
the gen, like at my generationx, and we read, that's all good,

(01:08:48):
we read stuff, we're happy withthat.
But I know other generationsslightly different so I have to
adapt.
So that's what I'm doing onInstagram well, that's great.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
No, that it um.
That's how I, well I found,like I said on Facebook, which
is my generation, yeah, mine too.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
I've really enjoyed this chat and learning about
your expertise as well.
That was, that was brilliant.
I've always wanted to talk tosomeone about my theory on dogs
no, you're, you're exactly right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
It's, it's very true.
Um, dogs are people pleasers.
That's how they survived allthese years.
They were one of the first, oneof the first things to be
domesticated, right?
So how did they do that?
By hanging around the fires and, you know, going for the food,
and then getting closer um tothe people, and then not biting
them or causing harm, and thenthey started to realize how good
they food, and then gettingcloser to the people, and then
not biting them or causing harm,and then they started to
realize how good they are.
And then, of course, look whatwe've done with our breeds of

(01:09:36):
dogs.
We've made them more and morelike babies you know, like we've
pushed in their faces and we'vemade their eyes bigger and you
know all kinds of you knowcompared to original dogs,
because that's a trait we like,you know, and because I don't
have like a little dog you carryaround like a little purse dog

(01:09:56):
and I have, I mean okay, eachhis own, but I mean that's.
You know I have a hard.
I'm going to go there.
People get mad at me but theyare all people pleasers, those
little dogs, and God bless them.
But you know I've got bordercolonies.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
So what do I know?

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
yeah, awesome um, thank you so much for uh taking
the time today, and I encourageeveryone to to go and look for
shelly's information one moretime.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
Your website calm and clear for us yes, it's wwwall
one word, this is all one wordcalm, willing, confident
horsescomau.
But if you do type in dr shellyappleton into uh google, it'll
come up as a google search too.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
There you go, and we'll also have all the
information on our things likethat.
Very okay.
Well, that's great.
Thank you so much much.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
No worries.
Thank you, Barbara.
See you later.