July 19, 2024 • 60 mins
Ingrid Henry, an equine coach, discusses the importance of trust and consistency in building a strong relationship with horses. Ingrid emphasizes the need for patience and understanding when working with challenging horses and highlights the value of undemanding time spent with them. She also addresses the issue of fear in horse-human relationships and offers advice on how to overcome it.
In this conversation, Ingrid discusses her passion for dressage and eventing, emphasizing the importance of building a harmonious connection with horses. She shares insights on how to overcome fear and frustration in riding, highlighting the role of emotional awareness and regulation. Ingrid also talks about the significance of confidence, leadership, and honesty in horse-human relationships. She provides practical tips for handling spooking incidents and promoting a sense of curiosity and confidence in horses. Finally, Ingrid emphasizes the value of continuous learning, empathy, and gentle honesty in developing a harmonious connection with horses.
We tackle the challenging emotions tied to horse handling, especially after traumatic experiences. Our host recounts a pivotal moment involving an Arab mare and a broken pelvis, highlighting how past traumas can influence current training sessions. By comparing the responses of different horses to their handlers, we emphasize the crucial role of self-awareness and emotional control. Through personal stories and practical examples, we discuss the journey of overcoming fear, emphasizing the importance of not projecting past anxieties onto new equine relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
Hello, this is barbara o'brienand you're listening to the
empathetic trainer podcast.
(00:34):
Today's guest is really cooland you're all going to love to
hear what she has to say abouthorses in our relationship.
Ingrid henry is an equine coachat the harmonious equestrian
connection.
She offers a unique experiencethat utilizes classical dressage
, biomechanics and customizedtraining for each horse and
rider.
Ingrid believes thatconsistency and trust are two
very important things forbuilding a strong and lasting
(00:56):
relationship with your horse.
Well, Ingrid, I couldn't agreemore.
Trust is the main thing.
I think that's thecommunication, so I think
welcome, Glad to have you here.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Thank you.
It's awesome to be here.
I've really enjoyed yourpodcast and I'm looking forward
to our conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, I think everyone will benefit and I'm
sure horses will if people takeit to heart.
Certainly, through my ownjourney with building trust with
my Morgans, who remind me ofMustangs, my Morgans from
Montana the range um buildingtrust is is huge and still
working on it every day.
Well, let's start with um.
Um, what it was like for yougrowing up.
(01:35):
How did you get into horses,how did you get into building
your business the way you are?
Um, even a little bit aboutpodcasting.
I think that's cool that youhave a podcast and we'll
certainly share that in all theshow info, because people should
go to your podcast and listento what you have to say and the
amazing guests that you have.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, I've always been a horselover.
It did not come from my family,but I remember when I was four
years old, one of my firstmemories was there were ponies
that we could ride around thepark or something, and I was so
excited to get to ride.
So for me it's just been alifelong love, and my aunt is a
(02:12):
horse lover, but the rest of myfamily is not.
My parents, though, were veryunderstanding, and I took
lessons as a young kid andleased a horse when I was in
middle school, got to own ahorse when I was in high school,
and I participated in pony cluband just enjoyed my horse.
I remember in middle schoolriding that mare bareback while
(02:36):
she grazed.
You know things that you'reprobably not supposed to do, but
I really enjoyed the connectionalways, not just the riding
part as a sport, but for me itwas primarily about the
relationship with the animal,and I love that I could have my
own and really develop that bond, more so than when you take
(02:56):
lessons.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Oh, certainly Because horses know their people,
there's no doubt and appreciatethe good people.
I was lucky in the same way.
I got to ride horses from like7th grade on when I started
working for riding privilegesand did that until I got married
and eloped so I could live onthe farm where the horse was,
still live on a farm, still havethe same husband, still have
(03:19):
horses.
So I got pretty lucky there.
So I understand that and therewas a lot of freedom.
At least we had Wasn't a lot ofadult intervention.
I don't know how well I learnedto ride, but riding bareback
just all over everywhere, andback then we didn't have the
wisdom of helmets like we do now.
So things like that.
So I can appreciate that.
(03:39):
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe business that you're running
right now and how you helppeople and horses.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Sure Well, I consider myself practically a
professional amateur.
So I just started my business acouple years ago at nearly 40
years old, and before that I wasan amateur rider.
I had a mare that I had raisedfrom a yearling and, with the
trainer's help, started her.
I was the first person on herback, but she was a Friesian
(04:10):
cross and had a really good,safe sort of temperament.
She challenged everything Anythought that I had.
She was like do I have to, why?
And so I learned a lot from herand never really thought I'd be
a professional, just figured Iwas your typical amateur.
And then I got my second horseand whereas my first mare was
(04:33):
lazy, this one was sensitive andanxious and just the total
opposite side of the spectrum.
I had to help her find calm andconfidence, and so I learned a
lot from both of them.
In fact, I had a farrier onceasked me how do you have two
horses who are so different?
And I very seriously looked athim and I said, well, I'm like
(04:54):
both of them.
And he totally cracked upbecause he's like how can you be
like both of them?
But it's true, I have my marethat I raised.
I have the same sort ofconfidence that she does, and
opinionatedness.
And then that other mare.
I have her sensitivity and, youknow, I do feel like I related
(05:15):
to both of them, even thoughthey were very different.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Oh, you're right about that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, I mean you can right relate to them even though
they're different.
Yeah, I mean you can relate tothem even though they're
different.
It just kind of happened when Ilost my young mare.
She was 14 and in the prime ofher life and sadly got sick.
I discovered in the necropsythat it was a ruptured esophagus
that she suffered with, yeah,and she'd never choked, didn't
(05:43):
have a history of it.
It was very out of the blue andvery sad.
She was not yet 14.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Oh, that must have been heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah.
So when I went through thatperiod I still had my older mare
and I was glad to have a horsestill to love and she needed me
because they had been bestfriends.
But through that process Idiscovered also sort of
rediscovered a love of riding,because all of my friends were
like well, don't give up, youknow, ride my horse.
(06:14):
And in that process Idiscovered just how valuable it
had been to me to have the onethat you were so bonded with.
Right, I think it's easy totake that for granted, don't?
We all want a heart horse, aswe call?
Speaker 1 (06:31):
it Literally a heart horse.
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
But to have lost that .
You know, it was like who am Iwithout her?
And I did find rediscover mylove of horses and my love of
riding and I rode a whole bunchof different horses in that time
period and even my trainer waspleasantly surprised at what a
good rider I was without thehorse.
That was so challenging and Idon't know.
(06:59):
It was kind of during thatperiod that I realized a lot of
people wanted the kind ofrelationship I had had with my
horse and didn't know how to getthere.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
And I thought that I could share my story and help
people on that same journey that, um, I truly believe that a
hard horse is not necessarilysomething that just you meet and
boom, you're, you're besties.
It's a process, and with myhorse, your besties.
It's a process, and with myhorse it was particularly
challenging.
I raised her from a baby butshe was quite a challenging
(07:30):
personality and I had to.
I'm not sure that I evercompletely had her respect as
her leader.
I think she was kind of one ofthose very opinionated horses
that just it was in her tochallenge things and in a
dominance perspective.
I'm not sure that I was numberone all the time, but but we
(07:51):
definitely trusted each other.
I would take her out onbareback trail rides around the
property.
Um, I felt very safe with her,even though she had her own
ideas and I.
There were so many times as ayoung horse that I wanted to
give up on her and I just wantedpeople to know that, like any
relationship, sometimes you haveto work for it.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Sometimes it's not easy.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
You have to figure out what motivates them, what do
they like, how can you meetthem where they're at, and I
just it occurred to me I coulddo this thing and and share.
Actually that's how the podcaststarted.
It was the first thing.
My first season is about hardhorses and I interviewed a bunch
of people who have have or hadhad a hard horse and their story
(08:38):
.
I just wanted people to knowsome of those themes that you
might have to stick with achallenging horse to get to the
other side, to find that levelof connection.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Oh, I understand completely.
Those people who have beenlistening to the podcast know
about my.
I have seven horses right now,seven Morgans, but the old ones
are old, retired Morgans fromForever Morgan's Rescue and
places like that.
The three young ones, oh, andthen the brand new one that is a
riding horse actually Anotherwhole other story.
The three young ones that camefrom Montana came as a
(09:13):
three-year-old and two yearlingsfillies, and the two yearling
fillies were just completelymalleable, like I'm with you, I
know, you know I've been on therange, but people are great and
now they're a three-year-old andthey're a blast, just a blast
Like what a joy.
You know, the three-year-old,who's now five, has always been
(09:33):
a challenge because she isworried that I'm not going to be
, I'm not a good leader, and Idon't blame her because I have
this.
When we first got her wecouldn't get close to her and
she would kick out defensivelyif you got close.
Never had horses like that, andso I was afraid.
I'm like I don't know how tohandle this.
But after learning more aboutattunement and body language and
(09:55):
calmness and trying to likeregulate myself, then she got
calmer.
So it's been two years and sonow I'm not afraid of worried
about her kicking me.
But she gets wound up prettyfast, like if something, because
she was the watcher of her herdof like there's 60 mares and
foals, so she was a watcher, oneof the watchers.
That's her job, kind of how sheperceived the world.
(10:18):
And so she came here in a brandnew environment, although it's
very quiet and open, ruralWisconsin she is definitely
still there.
Could be, you know, there'd bemonsters somewhere and I know
she rests.
I know she lays down, I knowshe, you know, is doing all the
things she needs to do to behealthy and it's certainly
gotten better.
But it's amazing the differencebetween when I handle her and
(10:41):
when my trainer, tiffanyStauffer who I've done ahead of
my podcast, who's a Libertytrainer and does beautiful work
with attunement and working withhorses.
With Tiffany, she goes oh it'syou.
Okay, you know I can let go, Idon't have to watch, I'm with
you, I trust you With me.
She goes.
Well, you're afraid ofsomething.
Are you afraid of me?
(11:01):
Should I be afraid?
What are we afraid of?
And then she picks up all myfeelings and Tiffany said to me
you have to work out your fearfrom her because she's not doing
anything that is causing this.
You're living the fear you hadwhen you got hurt by that other
horse, broke your pelvis, allthis stuff happened to you.
Your hard horse died.
(11:22):
You're projecting everythingonto this poor mare who's done
nothing.
You know it was kind ofeyeopening like, yeah, probably,
how do I fix it?
So, yeah, so horses read us forsure.
You know, um, so I guess otherpeople would call her
challenging, like you know.
Um, I have not backed her,she's just five.
I'm letting her bones grow, I'mletting her back grow, I'm
(11:43):
letting her.
So you know, we do groundwork,and you know and then.
But if she gets up, then mybody gets up too, and I have to
learn how not to do that.
So how, how would you helpsomeone in my case?
I'm sure there's a lot of uswho are a little bit afraid of
our horses, and she's only 14hands.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I can't imagine having a big horse.
Yeah, yeah, it's definitelychallenging, I think, horses.
I've come to the conclusionthat Elena, my young horse that
I had raised, that I lost, thatone of her purposes on earth was
to teach me and in her case itwas a little different.
It wasn't really so much aboutthe fear, but with her it was
(12:29):
that I would get frustrated.
I'd ask her to trot and shewouldn't trot and I'd get
frustrated and then she'd getfrustrated back and that was our
spiral.
It was sort of a frustrationspiral but she eventually, with
some hope from a trainer, Ilearned not to get frustrated,
(12:50):
that that she was a horse thatjust took a while to warm up,
and I let that go and I just letthat be and I praised her when
she did do the things I asked,even if it wasn't her full
capability physically.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
If she was at all willing.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I praised her and I learned how to control myself,
because that's kind of what I'mgetting at that each of us
horses have so much to teach usin terms of the self-knowledge
and awareness of our emotionsand all of that.
So when I'm working withsomeone who's dealing with fear
(13:30):
which, by the way, I trulybelieve, all horse people do at
some point deal with some fearUsually if they have had an
accident or have been hurt, thenthe fear creeps in with their
future interactions with horses.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, yeah, no, I get it.
I'll just interrupt you justfor a second.
Um, for those that don't know,a couple of years ago I had a
Arab mare that we rescued and Ilove Arabs, I love my Morgans, I
love Arabs.
Um, we got her out of a badsituation, got her healthy, got
her going again.
She was trained to ride Um, butI was moving really slowly,
groundwork, things like thatthought I was building
(14:03):
relationship.
But when I slid onto herbareback from the fence, you
know, just to halt her, notasking anything after like time
and time and quiet, wasn'treading her body language and so
when I asked her to move, shekind of went and I've never been
on a horse that bucked.
I just haven't really been likeI mean, crow hops, yes, but not
(14:25):
a serious buck.
And I asked her to move again,like you know, just a squeeze,
can we just move away from youknow, a few steps?
That's all I'm asking for you.
She huffed up again and thenshe bucked really hard.
Well, I think it was reallyhard and just a halter, no
saddle, of course.
I went flying off and I landed,like when somebody has a mop
(14:47):
bucket and a mop sign, whensomebody is clean, you know, in
a commercial space, and theyhave the guy that is like
landing on his hip, like hislegs are up, his arms are up.
It's an illustration.
You know this like this bentbody.
I landed really hard and brokemy pelvis in three spots, and I
have never been hurt on a horse.
I mean, I've kicked a few times, you know, but never seriously
hurt.
And I was, um, already, likeyou know, 60 years old at that
(15:11):
point, 59, 60 years old, um, soa couple of years ago.
And it just that that threw meso hard that, um, I mean not she
literally threw me, but Ifigure she's it was in pain.
I think you know something wasgoing on with her back, there
was something I missed,something I just wasn't paying
attention to, thought I waslearning attunement, thought I
was learning those thingspushing way too fast, going too
(15:32):
fast.
So I project, I believe theminute a horse gets higher
brings up their level of anxiety.
Mine involuntarily kicks in.
So it's a joy that I have a newhorse that came to me.
It was an 18-year-old, morganGelding, been there, done that
fellow, and that's beenfantastic because I can ride him
(15:55):
bareback with no fear and he'sgreat.
But Rita transfers, I'm scaredof the five-year-old mare I have
now.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Sure, it makes sense.
You realize how fragile you are.
You realize how dangerous theyare, even if they're not trying
to hurt you but perhaps dealingwith some fear or whatever if
you miss the signals.
So I think a lot of it is thethings that you already were
doing with that Arab mare rightAttunement, paying attention,
(16:24):
learning their body language,checking in.
One of the things that one ofthe experiences I thought I'd
talk about actually is whathappened with me that caused me
to have fear recently.
I had recently become aprofessional trainer and was an
assistant trainer and wasrestarting a horse and we took
it from the beginning, didgroundwork, then then, you know,
(16:46):
leaned over him, then got on,then got off, you know all the
baby steps and I was up to thepoint of riding him, walk, trot
and canter off the lunge line.
But there was a horse in thearena, in the round pen which
was located inside the arena.
That was very upset, I'd say.
It was certainly eager to move,having been cooped up in a stall
(17:07):
, it was moving very fast, but Ithink it was also agitated and
the horse I was riding was notokay with that, like he'd been
fine as I had lunged him andthen as I got on, but he saw
that horse and was just likewhat is wrong with them I'm so
worried and was just like whatis wrong with them?
I'm so worried what's going on.
(17:28):
And he did this little like Imight bolt or I might buck, or
you know.
And then I calmed him down andthere were other trainers in the
arena and I felt that I neededto stay on.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So I did, and he did it again Like oh, I don't know,
I'm not okay with that, and Istayed on again.
But I had this little nigglingvoice I call it, you know, your
intuition, right.
That said, maybe it would bebetter to get off.
You know, just get themcomfortable again.
You can always get back onlater.
But I ignored it.
And then, third time, he tookoff galloping and bucking,
(18:02):
broncing.
I can ride a buck, but this wasbig.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I get it and eventually I came off in the
corner of the arena.
I, thankfully, was wearing ahelmet and a safety vest and
just had a headache, so probablya mild concussion from it.
But I also learned my lessonthat it doesn't matter how much
relationship you've developedwith the horse, If they go over
threshold you're not safe withthem and you should really
listen to your intuition aboutwhere that line is and if, if
(18:34):
you get the sense that youshould stop or go back to where
the horse feels safe, help themfrom the ground or or you know,
if you were asking anything ofthem, any pressure, is there a
way to step that back?
Anyway, so After that Idefinitely dealt with a lot of
(18:55):
fear.
I did get back on him, in factthat same day and a couple weeks
later, after trying to workmyself up to it, I did ride him
again, but I was definitely verynervous with him.
So even though here I am aprofessional trainer, I'm like,
okay, that's all right, we'regoing to do what it takes.
I'm going to ride the horses Ifeel safe to ride and I'm only
going to ride them.
(19:15):
And if I only feel safe at awalk, I'm only going to walk.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
That is so gratifying to hear because you know, we,
we compare ourselves to othersand oh, these people are riding
their five-year-old and they'redoing this and that, and dah,
dah, dah, dah, you know, and andlike, they're always farther
ahead.
You know, like when Facebookfirst came out or the, the
social media was like, you know,oh, their life is better.
You know, likely, I didn't fallinto that, but there's people
(19:40):
who do, who you know, fuss thatsomebody's got it better and
different.
It's gratifying to hear thateven professionals like yourself
, with lots of experience andyears of riding, can have doubts
and can have, you know, momentsof anxiety and worry about
things.
I think that what you're sayingis being aware of it and then
letting it.
You know, moments of anxietyand worry about things.
I think that what you're sayingis being aware of it and then
letting it.
You know, work through, insteadof ignoring it, which the horse
(20:02):
will pick up, whether you causeyou're not being congruent at
that point, so it's better to behonest and just work through
your feelings with the horse.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And I very much advocate going back to what
feels safe for you as well asfor the horse and whoever.
Whoever is scared, you go down.
As for the horse and whoever isscared, you go down to like the
sort of the lowest commondenominator, right.
Whoever is more scared, we getto go down to where they feel
safe because of the way yourfear and the horse's feet on
each other.
(20:31):
And in my case, I was ridingsafe horses, so it was me who
was setting the line and I think, more than anything, that gave
me my confidence back, that Iwould not let my trainer or
anyone else push me beyond whatI felt comfortable with and
because of that, all of my ridesI was experiencing felt safe to
me and so, with only goodexperiences going forward, it
(20:52):
wasn't long before I wasrecovering my confidence and in
fact, I sat on my baby horsethat summer for the first time.
But there again, my heart wasthumping and I'm like, oh, is
this the excitement of my firsttime riding my horse that I've
raised from a baby, or am Iscared?
And I'm like, I'm not even sure.
(21:12):
But you know what?
I'm going to take a break.
She was good for that, that wasfine and we'll come back to it
in a bit, like maybe six monthsor a year.
It ended up being about a yearlater before I got on her again
and by then I was more able toregulate my emotions and my
racing heart, my fear, and belike, okay, we've developed all
(21:34):
this, more trust of all of ourgroundwork that we've done.
She's a good girl.
She didn't do anything lasttime, she's not going to do
anything.
And I was just able to calmmyself further.
And I was further removed frommy own fear incident, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
No, I get it.
That's why Teddy Sharp, thelittle Morgan Gelding that has
come into my life, that'strained and rideable and, you
know, just a lot of fun.
So honest, such an honestlittle guy, it's helping me
build my confidence again.
I just mentioned on Facebookthe other day, a couple days ago
I hadn't ridden him much inJune because we were working
(22:10):
tons and tons.
Finally had a chance to ridehim again, figured out the cinch
on my Western, because myWestern saddle is the only one
that fits him right now.
I usually write English.
The cinch was too long, it wasgoing to hit him in the wrong
spots, it wasn't set up.
So I said, well, I can't usethis saddle, I'll just ride him
bareback.
And you know that's like being14.
I mean, it just was so much funto just tool around the
(22:32):
property and you know, let himfeel good about it.
And I asked lots of yesquestions and he answered lots
of yes questions and therewasn't any conflict.
And I let him even decide whereto go.
And you think he'd be hurtbound somewhat, want to go back?
No, he's like I haven't seenthis part, let's go over here.
And it was just like such aconfidence builder that I could.
(22:52):
Okay, I'm not going to get hurtevery single time I get near,
you know, on a horse.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's so awesome.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I didn't have a riding horse for a long time my
young ones and then, like I said, the rescues.
We don't ride, so I didn't havea riding horse for a long time,
so I got sent what I needed.
This horse came into my life.
Well, that had some stuff totalk about.
What are small things that youcan do to deepen your connection
(23:20):
with your horse?
Any suggestions?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I think the biggest thing we can do to deepen our
connection with our horses isnot ask anything of them.
Spend time with them where Icall it undemanding time.
You're not asking them to doanything for you.
No-transcript.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So I think just spending time that's undemanding
and that depends on the horse.
If it's a feral horse or arescue or something and it
doesn't want to be touched,grooming would not be a
comfortable thing to it.
But if it's a horse that you've, you know, worked with before,
and you know that they love tobe scritched, you know, then,
that's a great thing to do withthem.
It all depends on the horse,but wherever they feel safe with
(24:30):
you, I think less is more.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Oh, I'd have to agree when we found out Rita's
favorites.
Rita, that's the five-year-oldthat was anxious, her scratching
spots.
It's like a communication adoor opens.
And now it's kind of funnybecause now we've learned that,
oh, she likes her butt scratched, you know, on top of her butt.
So now when I'm out there withthe group, she'll just back into
(24:55):
me as gently as possible,telling me very clearly because
of their body language I'm notgoing to kick your head off,
it's more like please scratch me.
And that's a real treat for her.
It's like I.
Just because she can't reach it.
It makes it really hard To theunsuspecting, though if she
likes you, she'll turn and wantto back into you and you kind of
(25:15):
go like whoa, what was shedoing?
So it's probably not the bestthing to have caught her, but
but it certainly helped buildrelationship, cause I started
out through the fence.
You know, like I didn't justgrab at her and reach at her, we
started out scratching fromthrough.
You know, I'm on one side ofthe fence, she's on the other,
so I wasn't afraid of gettingkicked.
She wasn't, um, she wasn'tanxious about me moving around a
(25:35):
lot.
I was able to finally get downand touch her back, legs reach
all over her body, that sherealizes that nothing bad is
going to happen, that it'sactually quite pleasant.
But that took patience andself-discipline, because it
always seems like when yourhorse is doing great well, let's
do more, and it doesn't workthat way.
It's better to stop at the peakof like this is wonderful.
Okay, we're done for today.
(25:56):
You know, same thing with.
I'm an animal trainer, as youknow, so when I work with my
animal actors, it's the samething.
Um, dog's doing great on set.
Great on set.
He's lovely, happy, smiling,and I go okay, you got
everything.
I'll tell the photographer youknow he needs it's like I can
(26:17):
read that it's time Dog is done.
Gave us everything.
We're ending on that because Iwant that to be the best day
ever.
So if you think about yourhorses and the way you interact
with them, trying to always bethe best day ever for them, now
maybe the best day for them isout hanging, grazing and not
being asked to do anything.
But I found and maybe you foundthis to be true too when you
(26:39):
have a horse that you're reallyworking with in a good, positive
way, they actually want to bepart of the team.
You talk about a herd of two,and I love that concept.
Let's talk about a herd of twoKind of goes along with what I'm
saying.
I think.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
So when I first met my current horse, my filly, she
was hiding behind her mom and Ihad seen a video of her moving
and I was like she's beautiful,but I don't know one that hides
behind her mom is not really forme.
Me like, yeah, please scritchme, you know, and she got to
come in with her mom and havegrain and she's like, oh, I like
coming into stalls and seeingpeople because I get extra
attention and I get scritchiesand I get food.
So for her it was always apositive thing.
It didn't take long or and itwas not difficult to halter
(27:35):
train her.
We just put it on her and thenwe walked following mom.
I didn't have to pull on it,you know she was following her
mother anyway, and she was, youknow, she became pretty
independent pretty quick.
She pretty soon was like oh,you're kind of like my second
mom, like you also give me foodand help me feel safe and make
me feel good.
Okay, so sometimes we wouldtake her mom into a stall and
(27:58):
her into the stall next to it,sure, and they'd both have food.
They could still see each other.
You know, she didn't feelseparated or anxious about it.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Right, you were careful not to put her over
threshold.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Exactly, and that's what it all comes down to.
Another horse might not havebeen okay with that same plan,
so I I think that's reallyimportant in horse training to
tailor it to the individual, butwe definitely became a herd of
two.
You know, she feels like she'snot alone if I'm there with her
as long as I'm present and I'msafe for her.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, so say you have a horse that's new to you, or
an older horse you know, asopposed to a youngster who might
, who might have had such goodexperiences and open you know
where another horse might've hadsome bad experiences may not be
as open Any suggestions forbuilding that herd of two with
with them.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Well, I think, there again, I would suggest the
non-demanding time spend timethat is good for them and not
scary for them, whatever thatlooks like for that horse I do
think a lot of horses and findout what motivates them.
Right, A lot of horses respondwell to grooming or scritching
if they're itchy Sometimes.
(29:10):
I'm not above using foodrewards, and not really as a
reward but more as a here's.
We're going to make thisexperience together positive and
if this helps that be positivefor you, then we'll do that.
A third thing is just payingattention, being aware of where
threshold is for them andstaying under that line.
So I've I mentioned my sensitivemare.
(29:32):
That was my second horse.
Her name was Kaleidoscope andshe was very separation anxious.
Second horse, Her name wasKaleidoscope and she was very
separation anxious.
So taking her to a new barn, asI did when I got her, then
separating her from the horsethat she was turned out with,
she was very nervous and I thinkthe thing that helped the most
was okay, if you're not okay,away from that herd, mate, I'll
(29:53):
go into that pasture with youand that horse and I'll groom
you there.
I'll spend time with you there.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Right.
Work with them where they'recomfortable to build a
relationship for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
So baby steps and find out what, like I said, what
motivates them, what helps themfeel safe and work within that.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
That's a great idea.
Well, let's talk a little bitabout dressage.
It looks like you just got abronze medal.
That's for those who are startfrom the beginning pretend that
some of us know absolutelynothing about dressage.
It's a competitive sport.
It's kind of in the spotlightright now for good and bad
reasons.
So I can imagine that you're anadvocate for dressage in the
(30:34):
way that it should be done andwell for the benefit of the
horse, like the best possibleexperience for the horse.
But anyway, let's just kind ofa quick primer on what dressage
is and how exciting it is to wina bronze medal and how much
work that was and how horses canbenefit.
Horses and riders can benefitfrom learning this ancient art
(30:54):
together in a positive way.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Absolutely, I'm absolutely in love with that
kind of dressage, the kind thatis helping them to use their
bodies in a healthier way sothat they can be sounder, live
longer, be happier also in theirwork.
I've been like.
I mentioned that I've done ponyclub, so I learned a bit about
dressage and eventing from afairly young age and it didn't
(31:22):
take me long to discover mypreference for dressage.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
And let's define dressage versus eventing or
other sports.
Pretend like they're not,because our audience is like cat
and dog people as well.
You know so.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah, so eventing is.
I often describe it as whatChristopher Reeves did it's
jumping over obstacles outsidein a wide open space.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Terrifying, by the way.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yep.
So that's the cross countrypart of eventing.
And then they also do showjumping, which is jumping a
horse over obstacles in a fencearea, and dressage, which is no
jumps but just doing figures inan arena, so it might involve
circles or diagonal lines acrossit, or serpentines or a variety
of different things.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
It's showing like a dance and a relationship between
the rider and the horse.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
When it's done properly.
It looks like both are having areally good time.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yes, it should be very harmonious and it's.
I describe it as.
Really it is a lot like dancingwith the horse.
You want to have a connection,you want it to flow and be fluid
and and for no one horse orrider to be uncomfortable or
upset.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
That's the ideal.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Of course there are moments, especially in training,
but it is always the goal thatyou and the horse are as
confident and as comfortable aspossible.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Okay, and so the bronze medal.
What does that mean?
Pretty exciting.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, so a bronze medal is the first medal of its
kind.
In dressage there's differentlevels, so at the Olympics they
do the Grand Prix level and abronze medal is, like I said,
sort of the bottom one wherethere's introductory level is
walking and trotting.
Training level is walk,trotting and cantering and some
(33:12):
circles, and then a bronze medalis first, second and third
levels, getting two scores fromtwo different judges at two
different shows of 60% or higher.
So it's really a pass fail.
It's not a high bar, but in theway dressage is judged.
It's challenging, but I'm justsaying the percentage is not
(33:34):
particularly high but it ischallenging.
So first through second levelsare sort of the basics of
dressage, where you might dosome what we call lateral work,
where the horse is movingsideways as well as forwards,
Developing some collection atsecond and third levels and some
impulsion even at the firstlevel.
So it is challenging and it's anice marker along the way of
(33:58):
you're on the right path andyou're learning what you need to
learn to be effective in thatdiscipline and to move up.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
That's really cool.
Congratulations, that's apretty neat thing.
Okay, so I'm going to just peekat my notes here.
Okay, so I'm going to just peekat my notes here.
In some of your essays you talkabout the importance of
perspective and attitude.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Let's talk about that a little bit.
Yeah, so I think this goesalong to what we were talking
about earlier about fear andabout frustration in riding.
I think both are very sadly toocommon, but I think it's really
important for us to recognizewhen our emotions are getting in
the way of our connection withour horse and our enjoyment of
our ride.
So I have a background ofbachelor's in psychology and
(34:50):
I've always been interested inpersonality and emotional
regulation and all those things.
So it really comes natural tome to bring that awareness to
everything I do with horses andwith their people.
So I help people to become moreaware of how they're feeling
emotionally while they're ridingor interacting with their horse
(35:10):
.
A lot of what I do with peopleis, in fact, groundwork.
It isn't necessarily involvingriding at all, depending on the
comfort level of the horse andthe rider and what they're
working on and all of that.
But I think it's very importantfor us to be aware of how we
are asking our horse to dosomething, and it's not just
(35:31):
whether there's fear orfrustration, but it's also
things like how confident areyou in what you're asking?
Do you know what you're doingand does the horse know that you
know what you're doing, becauseoften horses will feel lost or
like they don't have strongleadership if the handler isn't
confident.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
And consistent and consistent, yeah, and they're
masters at reading energy, right?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, so if we project a very calm, positive
energy, they're drawn to us.
They're like oh, you seem safeand you know what's going on.
So I'm going to trust you.
But if you're scared or ifyou're angry or if you're sad,
even they, they feel that andthey go.
Hmm, you know, if they'redistrustful to begin with, they
(36:16):
might give you a little bit morebirth.
If you have a good relationshipwith your horse and you're
feeling sad, they may absolutelycome and like, put their head
in your arms and comfort you.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
And I think they appreciate.
Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I was just gonna say I think they appreciate
emotional honesty, so, beingwhat you really feel, they do
appreciate honesty, so beingwhat you really feel they do
appreciate Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
This is why horses make such excellent animals to
work with in therapy for peoplewith all kinds of issues or
things going on in their lives.
I've always joked how horsesfor me are cheaper than you know
therapy or having a, becausethat you know.
I talked to them, you know so,and I I've only suffered
depression.
You know it was like a seriousdepression at all.
(37:02):
I've been really blessed when Iwas horseless you know just for
a very short time I washorseless, and then I look at it
like God sent me another horseway back when, because I just
can't be who I am without them.
So they, they are my therapistfor sure.
And when we had girls come andlive with us that had lots of
(37:22):
trauma and lots of things goingon, horses were a great gift to
them to be able to learn toregulate their emotions, to
learn that they can be strongaround something bigger.
They can say, yes, please, moveover, please, I'm here, I'm
actually here.
You know, uh, please come withme, uh, get, find their voice in
(37:43):
a way, um, and and horsesabsolutely know when you're, uh,
what your emotions are.
You know.
So they depending on the horseand what they do with them, but
you're, this is for sure, a realthing depending on the horse
and what they do with them, butyou're, this is for sure, a real
thing.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, and that's one of the things that I appreciate
about my young filly, becauseshe was mostly untouched when I
got her.
I've been able to give her alot of confidence in handling
people and our world, but she'salso very sensitive because
she's not been deliberatelydulled down as some horses are
are by their handling withpeople, and so I've learned how
(38:22):
to be more aware and moreintentional with the energy I
bring to our sessions together.
So, especially as a young horse,she would like coming in the
arena and just being playful,you know, going for a run and
kicking up her heels and woo,you know.
And I recently startedcantering her a little bit and
(38:43):
that was the energy that helpedus the most to pick up.
That canter was just verywoohoo, let's have fun.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
And.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I thought she might buck or something, but she did
not.
I think she has this awarenessof me up there and wants to keep
me safe.
But, I think it's reallyhelpful to deepen that level of
awareness, to be around animalsthat are still very sensitive.
Your mare, who's five, alsostrikes me as like that,
especially as she was thewatcher for her herd.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Yeah, she's sensitive is right.
It can be a gift, especiallycompared to the other two, you
know.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, it can be a gift as well as a challenge.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Well, I always felt those kind of mares.
Once you have the relationship,they will climb a tree for you.
It's like they will, they willbond with you, the mares
especially, I feel.
I mean I love my gelding too,but the mares are like okay, I
got your back, we're together inthis.
I just always felt that way,you know, because the prior hard
horse was a bear like that, youknow.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Absolutely.
I love mares, and not that Idon't love geldings too, but I'm
absolutely with you.
I think mares can take that toa whole nother level.
They all have this inherentsort of mothering-ness that they
will take care of you rightback, and self-preservation.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Like you know, if I'm going to preserve myself, I'll
preserve you as well, if youhave the relationship.
I think that's why I have sixmares and one gelding.
It's probably Wonderful, Allright.
Another thing that you writeabout is spooking, and spooking
is when a horse gets startledfor an audience that doesn't
know.
So you might be riding alongand something catches his
attention.
(40:19):
You know, a bird flies up adeer, a car back, something loud
, something happens that thehorse doesn't understand and he
reacts.
So he can react with a big buckand run and jump, or he can
just stand, stock still and takeit in Lots of ways to spook.
How do we help a horse workthrough spook so he doesn't get
hurt and you don't get hurt?
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I think I don't mean this to sound as a cop-out, but
I think the ideal is to try toavoid in the first place to not
set them over threshold, to givethem confidence in their time
with you whatever it's lookinglike.
Ideally, the more of that youhave before a spook happens, the
better, but they are preyanimals, right?
(41:02):
Anything can happen at any time.
So I think it's important forus to be aware of our own
emotional state and, if we getstartled, to bring ourselves
back down as soon as possible,take a nice deep breath, let it
out.
In my.
in the research that I've doneon trauma, I've read that
animals will often shake theirwhole body to release a stressor
(41:26):
, even like deer that have justbeen chased but gotten away from
a predator or something, and Ithink that that sort of shake it
off is something that peopleare not naturally not naturally
maybe it's not natural, butwe're often not good at and I
think if we're able to let it goquickly, we can model that for
our horses.
(41:46):
So when I took my filly to herfirst horse show recently, there
were all these people aroundthe arena, you know, talking,
and there were horses calling.
There were lots of distractions, Sure, and I just spent the
entire ride just taking thesedeep exhaling type breaths while
we're riding around.
So she knew that I was relaxedabout all of it.
(42:08):
Oh, this is just a person.
Oh, that's just a horse.
And the only spook that I hadin the whole two rides that I
did was she was trotting acrossthe diagonal and she walked.
That's all it was she didn'teven stop.
She just was like whoa, what'sthat?
I'm going to look and slow downand take a closer look, you
know, and she didn't even turnall that much.
(42:28):
But there was a person standingbehind the judge's table and
that hadn't been there and shejust had to look at it a moment
and I think that's becausepartly of the energy I was
bringing to the encounter andpartly all of the work we'd done
previously.
That said, I was out on thetrail with her and there was a
deer and the deer took offrunning and my horse was
(42:49):
definitely very spooked it wasprobably the biggest spook she's
had and she took a couple ofstrides of canter and I did what
you do in that situation, right, like take up the reins, try to
stop the animal.
And then I released the reinsbecause I didn't want her to
feel continually trapped.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
She was slowing down.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
I'm like, okay, you're good, you're you're good,
I'm good, we're all good.
We took some deep breaths and Ipet her neck and actually I
dismounted because I we had hadfive or six little triggers that
had happened that day beforethe deer and I'm like, with all
those things, if something elsehappens, there's going to be an
even bigger spook.
(43:27):
Let's just walk in hand therest of the way, have a good
experience, stay safe, calm down, and she was great.
Some animals would have reallyheld onto that tension and are
more challenging with spooks.
So if your horse is the kindthat can take a fearful moment
and calm quickly, ideally that'sthe goal.
(43:51):
If they're not, which a lot ofhorses aren't.
My previous mare kaleidoscopewould have held on to that fear
for quite a long time.
It's still important for us notto be triggered by their fear.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
To take the emotional control ourselves.
Take the deep breaths Um, ifyou can almost maybe this sounds
crazy, but almost meditate, um,you don't want to lose all
awareness of the horse becausethey may have lost awareness of
you.
If they're sufficiently scared,they may be a threat to you.
(44:23):
So you have to be careful.
But I would say get back to asafe zone.
If that means dismounting,going to a slower gate, you know
it depends on your thresholdand the horses but try to get
back to a safer zone as quicklyas possible as you can so that
both of you can calm down andreset.
(44:43):
And I'm not opposed to, you know, starting again.
I think sometimes horses alsoare more likely to spook if they
have a physical issue, if theyare in pain in any way or
uncomfortable.
So be aware of that as well.
(45:03):
If it becomes a frequentproblem, it's possible that
there's something, and I thinkthis adaptively makes sense.
If they're feeling a littlesore, like maybe they can't
safely run away from a threat,they might be more likely to
startle, you know, or try toavoid a scary situation.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
I think spooking is really challenging, but I think
a lot of it comes to how muchwe're capable of controlling
ourselves I think I agree um thebreathing, calming yourself,
waiting for them to calmthemselves, resetting, um, not
forcing them past somethingspooky, let them.
Let them reset, go back whereyou need to go back and you
start over if you need to,things like that.
That's all really good advice.
(45:46):
And not being ashamed to getoff.
There's no shame in like beingsafe.
Sometimes our eagle like wecan't see them or they think the
horse is, you know, takingadvantage of us.
No, you're just helping yourhorse, help you and help himself
.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
And it depends on the horse, but sometimes you can
actually use their curiosity toto help, I know some people
don't recommend letting themlook at the scary object, but if
they are a naturally curioushorse, sometimes I've found that
that can actually help.
If they, you know, seesomething that startles them and
and you both are able toregulate down a little bit, it
might actually make sense to goover and take a closer look.
Oh, for sure Because curiosityis a great counterpoint to fear.
(46:29):
Well, yeah not all horses, someof them.
If you do that, they'll be likeoh, my fear is reinforced.
You're looking at it too.
So it does depend on the horse.
What's going to work best it'shard to give a blanket answer.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
When I'm building attunement with a horse and
working with a horse, buildingrelationship.
If he looks at something in thedistance, he puts his head up
and he looks and he's alert,maybe not necessarily over
threshold, but definitelyinterested.
I take Warwick Schiller'sadvice and just look where he's
looking Like oh, I see it too.
Oh gosh, there's a half mileaway, there's a car going down
(47:05):
the road.
I see it.
Okay, you know like that.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
And then the horse goes.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Oh, okay, See, so you saw, at least you I'm aware of
what he was looking at, whichmade him feel safer, because the
watcher herd horse, someonelike Rita is like, don't you see
it?
I mean we should all beconcerned, you know.
And so if I just go oh, youknow, that's just a, that's just
a combine, two fields away,nothing to worry about I can see
her physically, you know,physically go, oh okay, but she
(47:31):
kind of needs that reinforcementfrom me.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yeah, yeah, they need to know that you are aware too
Exactly.
And if you can see somethingand then dismiss it, be like oh
yeah, I see that, but I'm notworried about it.
And even saying that's just afill in the blank, I think that
helps.
I think the horses hear thattone and that attitude and you
know what it is, even if theydon't know that word.
(47:54):
Right, you know what it is andyou're not worried that does
reassure them Exactly.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, I don't know how I'd feel if I saw a bear.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Well, they're unlikely to eat a horse.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
True, true, true.
No, I know, I'm just, I'm justjoking, but it's like you know
things, that things that I canlook at and go, yeah, it's fine,
you know not everything isgoing to be a not worried about
but, but if you are able to havethat thought, even I think it
would still help.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Oh, that's a bear, but it's over there.
We're going to go this way.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
We're not going to bother the bear.
At least in Wisconsin we havethese nice black bears and not
like grizzlies out West Blackbear.
Just assume not see you and youknow, move away.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
So not a problem, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Well, this has been really interesting.
We could do so many more ofthese because you've just a font
of information and good stufffor our listeners.
But we're to the part of theshow which we call the questions
, and what I had done when Isent you the intake form about
the podcast is send you a listof questions that we stole from
Tim Ferriss's book Tribe ofMentors.
(48:56):
It's just, these are just greatinterview questions, and so we
like doing this on the show.
We we sent you 20 questions.
You had the opportunity to pickfive of those questions that
you wanted to answer, so I'mjust going to ask away, okay,
All right.
All right.
What has been your biggestfailure and how has it helped
you?
Speaker 2 (49:15):
So this one I've already talked about this was
that um experience as a youngassistant trainer where my horse
bucked me off and I think,looking back on it, one could
say the failure was the falling.
But I disagree.
The failure was not listeningto my intuition.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
And how did it help me?
Well, I'm never going to dothat again.
If I feel unsafe on a horse,I'm going to get down.
I'm going to bring it back to alevel where everyone feels safe
.
I think life is too short andhorses are too potentially
dangerous to just push past.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
I think that's really good advice.
The next one is if you couldsend a message to the world,
what would that be?
Or do you have a favorite quote, and why?
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Can I answer both of those, of course?
Okay, all right, great.
I think my message to the worldis that we should always be
open to learning.
I think it's easy for people tofeel like we have it figured
out, like we've learned whatwe're going to learn.
We know what we know, and Ithink it's really important to
(50:21):
dive deeper.
What more can you learn aboutwho you are, how you feel, how
you think, what's your intuition?
I really think it's helpful forpeople to figure out the voices
in our head and learn todifferentiate them.
What is your fear talking?
What is your intuition?
What's the voice of rationalthinking and reason, and can you
(50:45):
tell which one's talking to youat what time?
It really helps you to figureout the way forward to navigate
life's challenges.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Oh, that's very good advice.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
I think it also helps you to differentiate between
your own perspective and that oflike your horses or another
person's, if you know what voiceis talking to you in your head.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Right and your favorite quote.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
My favorite quote is Marianne Williamson.
She said love is what we are,both, what we are born with.
Fear is what we learn.
The spiritual journey is theunlearning of fear and
prejudices and the acceptance oflove back in our hearts.
Love is the essential realityand our purpose on earth.
(51:27):
To be consciously aware of it,to experience love in ourselves
and others is the meaning oflife.
Meaning does not lie in things.
Meaning lies in us.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
That is a lovely quote and so true, that's great.
All right, um, what is theworst advice given in your
profession or bad idea that youhear of in your field of
expertise?
Speaker 2 (51:54):
I think, for me, just the thing that comes to me
today is the practice ofdesensitizing, in which people
flood horses and training withall sorts of things.
I'm absolutely not opposed toexposing them to umbrellas,
tarps, flags, whatever you want,but I think instead of
overwhelming them and creating ashutdown horse who feels that
(52:19):
they can't move or a state oflearned helplessness.
I think it's more important tobuild that curiosity, like I
mentioned earlier, introducethem to things and allow them
the chance to approach, toexplore it, to learn to have
confidence in themselves, intheir handler and in their world
.
As a result, my horse is one ofthe bravest, most sensible
(52:39):
young horses I know.
So, as a result, like my horseis one of the bravest, most
sensible young horses I know,and I think it really helps with
any horse if you can developtheir confidence with objects
and experiences like the washstall and trailer loading and
all of that, rather thanoverwhelming them by just doing
(53:00):
it.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
You know if you can take it in baby steps.
Give them confidence.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
I agree.
What is your relationship withfear?
For the longest time I tried toavoid it.
I hate being afraid.
Even as a kid I was not anadventurous child.
I did do a little cross countryjumping, but I was not the like
, bold, let's do it type of kid.
But now I know you can't avoidit, especially if you're a very
highly sensitive person or ahorse person.
(53:35):
And I'm both, so I've learnedinstead to acknowledge it, to
take it into consideration, tothank it for its feedback.
I think you have to acknowledgeit and be like yes, I see you, I
know why you're afraid, andthen, if necessary, modify my
actions and my choices to keepme safe.
So, like I said, there are waysto change your level of risk,
(54:00):
and I certainly do that when itmakes sense to, and I think fear
needn't hold you back, but itis important and it can actually
keep you safe if you listen toit without letting it run your
life.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Exactly All right.
And then, what quality do youadmire most in people?
Do?
Speaker 2 (54:22):
you admire most in people.
At first, I consideredanswering this with the quality
of empathy, and, while Icertainly appreciate others'
compassion and understanding forothers, I think I value honesty
as much or more, and I don'tmean necessarily bluntness, but
it takes a lot of courage to befully authentic and honest with
(54:47):
others.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Indeed, yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.
No go ahead With horses.
You can't be any other way.
You have to be honest, go aheadand finish your thoughts, sorry
.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
No, yeah, they, absolutely.
They ask us to be authentic,right, to be congruent, like you
said earlier, and especiallywhen you have a lot of kindness
and care for others and don'twish to hurt their feelings,
being able to be gently honestwith others is such a powerful
thing.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
Oh, absolutely when I was working with the young
people having to learnboundaries, because you just
want to take on everything andyou want to fix everything and
you can't, you know.
So that was.
I understand that what you'resaying, the empathy is good, but
also being honest about what'spossible and what.
What you can do, you know, andwhat you can't do.
And like, people's journeys aretheir own, you know.
(55:40):
So.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
I truly believe that gentle honesty, with enough
empathy to soften, it, is betterfor healthy relationships than
even the most well-intentioneddishonesty.
To keep the peace.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
Yeah, for sure, yeah, passive aggressive not great.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
Just to tell them how you feel.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
You know it's scary too.
It's hard to just to tell themhow you feel.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
you know it's scary too.
It's hard too, right right.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
But I'm a fan of honesty.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
There you go.
This is great.
Well, I tell you we've had areally wonderful hour with you.
So, for people who want to findyou, communicate with you, if
they're in the area, work withyou, are you going to do?
You do clinics in the future,or there's other projects you
want to talk about that you'reworking on.
Just just give us all yourself-promotion.
It will make sure that we getall the links you send us and
(56:29):
things that all go up on theshow notes and on the Web site
and everything.
But let's hear it from you howdo we find you?
Speaker 2 (56:35):
Yeah, well, probably the easiest way is I have a
Facebook page called HarmoniousEquestrian Connection and I post
there, but I'm also happy torespond to individual messages
and talk with people.
I do work with people virtuallyas well.
Speaker 1 (56:51):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (56:52):
They need to be local here to the Twin Cities area of
Minnesota.
I would love to do that inperson if they are local, but if
not, I do a lot of coachingover the phone or through Zoom
as well, so it can either be avirtual lesson of sorts or even
just talking about yourrelationship with your horse and
your challenges, and I can giveyou ideas and suggestions of
(57:14):
how to work through things.
That's wonderful.
I would love to do clinics aswell.
I haven't yet, but I do travelto some barns that are a little
further away and kind of do onceone day, once a month.
So I really tailor what I offerto what the individual needs.
It can be everything from Ihave one client who is three
times a week to, like I said,once a month, just depending on
(57:38):
what the needs are of the horsehandler and the horse needs are
of the horse handler and thehorse.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Oh, I agree, that's wonderful.
I appreciate that.
Okay, well, we'll make sure toget these connections on the
notes so people can find you ifneed be, and also links, of
course, to your podcast, becauseI think you have so much to
offer and your guests have somuch to offer, and isn't it
wonderful?
We live in a world now wherethe knowledge is right there in
front of us and so many peoplecan share good stuff.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
Yeah, I love learning from all the people out there
from all over the world who arealso promoting this sort of
thing, this this kindness andempathy towards horses and and
other animals and people.
I think I do believe we're onthe forefront of a shift.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
There seems to be a forefront of a shift in how
we're thinking about horses.
More and more People like youand Lockie Phillips and Warwick
Schiller and you know a lot ofthe guests that we've had on our
show Carrie Lake and MaryCornyn I could go on and on Dr
Susan Fay are all part like thevanguard of a new relationship
and understanding with horses,which can only benefit horses
(58:42):
and people In the dog world.
I think it's been going on fora while.
They're getting away from theseaversive methods of training
that are quite harmful to a dog,the dog's psychology as well.
Horses is taking a littlelonger.
The cultural shift is taking alittle longer, but it's a start
and more and more people thatare listening and doing their
best to not get their horses toa state of shutdown or a state
(59:05):
of sheer panic or you know notor ways that can harm a horse in
the long run, not even justphysically, but emotionally
caring about it.
This is so huge, and so we'regrateful there's people like you
, voices like you out there,your willingness to help other
people, and we thank you verymuch for being on the podcast
today.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Yeah, I just wanted to say, too, my my podcast, my latest
season, is about harmony withhorses, so I've been
interviewing people who areprofessionals in some sort of
horse field, whether it's horsemassage or chiropractic, or a
horse trainer or whatever it isthey do with horses, getting
their perspective on.
(59:43):
I even interviewed a dressagejudge but, getting their
perspective on how can wedevelop more harmony with horses
.
As you mentioned, dressage hasbeen in the news for some
unsavory things and the abusesand the dark side of it, and I
wanted to talk about what we cando better.
What are we aiming for, whatdoes harmony with the horse look
(01:00:05):
like and how do we get there?
So I'm excited to interviewmore people as part of that too,
and and share their stories andtheir ideas.
I just think there's, like yousaid, it's, a wonderful movement
and I'm so glad to be a part ofit.
Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Absolutely, Absolutely so.
The horses thank you and Ithank you, and I'm sure the
audience will be glad to havelistened to the podcast.
So thank you again, Ingrid.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Thanks for having me.
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
Hello, this is barbara o'brienand you're listening to the
empathetic trainer podcast.
(00:34):
Today's guest is really cooland you're all going to love to
hear what she has to say abouthorses in our relationship.
Ingrid henry is an equine coachat the harmonious equestrian
connection.
She offers a unique experiencethat utilizes classical dressage
, biomechanics and customizedtraining for each horse and
rider.
Ingrid believes thatconsistency and trust are two
very important things forbuilding a strong and lasting
(00:56):
relationship with your horse.
Well, Ingrid, I couldn't agreemore.
Trust is the main thing.
I think that's thecommunication, so I think
welcome, Glad to have you here.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Thank you.
It's awesome to be here.
I've really enjoyed yourpodcast and I'm looking forward
to our conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, I think everyone will benefit and I'm
sure horses will if people takeit to heart.
Certainly, through my ownjourney with building trust with
my Morgans, who remind me ofMustangs, my Morgans from
Montana the range um buildingtrust is is huge and still
working on it every day.
Well, let's start with um.
Um, what it was like for yougrowing up.
(01:35):
How did you get into horses,how did you get into building
your business the way you are?
Um, even a little bit aboutpodcasting.
I think that's cool that youhave a podcast and we'll
certainly share that in all theshow info, because people should
go to your podcast and listento what you have to say and the
amazing guests that you have.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, I've always been a horselover.
It did not come from my family,but I remember when I was four
years old, one of my firstmemories was there were ponies
that we could ride around thepark or something, and I was so
excited to get to ride.
So for me it's just been alifelong love, and my aunt is a
(02:12):
horse lover, but the rest of myfamily is not.
My parents, though, were veryunderstanding, and I took
lessons as a young kid andleased a horse when I was in
middle school, got to own ahorse when I was in high school,
and I participated in pony cluband just enjoyed my horse.
I remember in middle schoolriding that mare bareback while
(02:36):
she grazed.
You know things that you'reprobably not supposed to do, but
I really enjoyed the connectionalways, not just the riding
part as a sport, but for me itwas primarily about the
relationship with the animal,and I love that I could have my
own and really develop that bond, more so than when you take
(02:56):
lessons.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Oh, certainly Because horses know their people,
there's no doubt and appreciatethe good people.
I was lucky in the same way.
I got to ride horses from like7th grade on when I started
working for riding privilegesand did that until I got married
and eloped so I could live onthe farm where the horse was,
still live on a farm, still havethe same husband, still have
(03:19):
horses.
So I got pretty lucky there.
So I understand that and therewas a lot of freedom.
At least we had Wasn't a lot ofadult intervention.
I don't know how well I learnedto ride, but riding bareback
just all over everywhere, andback then we didn't have the
wisdom of helmets like we do now.
So things like that.
So I can appreciate that.
(03:39):
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe business that you're running
right now and how you helppeople and horses.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Sure Well, I consider myself practically a
professional amateur.
So I just started my business acouple years ago at nearly 40
years old, and before that I wasan amateur rider.
I had a mare that I had raisedfrom a yearling and, with the
trainer's help, started her.
I was the first person on herback, but she was a Friesian
(04:10):
cross and had a really good,safe sort of temperament.
She challenged everything Anythought that I had.
She was like do I have to, why?
And so I learned a lot from herand never really thought I'd be
a professional, just figured Iwas your typical amateur.
And then I got my second horseand whereas my first mare was
(04:33):
lazy, this one was sensitive andanxious and just the total
opposite side of the spectrum.
I had to help her find calm andconfidence, and so I learned a
lot from both of them.
In fact, I had a farrier onceasked me how do you have two
horses who are so different?
And I very seriously looked athim and I said, well, I'm like
(04:54):
both of them.
And he totally cracked upbecause he's like how can you be
like both of them?
But it's true, I have my marethat I raised.
I have the same sort ofconfidence that she does, and
opinionatedness.
And then that other mare.
I have her sensitivity and, youknow, I do feel like I related
(05:15):
to both of them, even thoughthey were very different.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Oh, you're right about that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, I mean you can right relate to them even though
they're different.
Yeah, I mean you can relate tothem even though they're
different.
It just kind of happened when Ilost my young mare.
She was 14 and in the prime ofher life and sadly got sick.
I discovered in the necropsythat it was a ruptured esophagus
that she suffered with, yeah,and she'd never choked, didn't
(05:43):
have a history of it.
It was very out of the blue andvery sad.
She was not yet 14.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Oh, that must have been heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah.
So when I went through thatperiod I still had my older mare
and I was glad to have a horsestill to love and she needed me
because they had been bestfriends.
But through that process Idiscovered also sort of
rediscovered a love of riding,because all of my friends were
like well, don't give up, youknow, ride my horse.
(06:14):
And in that process Idiscovered just how valuable it
had been to me to have the onethat you were so bonded with.
Right, I think it's easy totake that for granted, don't?
We all want a heart horse, aswe call?
Speaker 1 (06:31):
it Literally a heart horse.
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
But to have lost that .
You know, it was like who am Iwithout her?
And I did find rediscover mylove of horses and my love of
riding and I rode a whole bunchof different horses in that time
period and even my trainer waspleasantly surprised at what a
good rider I was without thehorse.
That was so challenging and Idon't know.
(06:59):
It was kind of during thatperiod that I realized a lot of
people wanted the kind ofrelationship I had had with my
horse and didn't know how to getthere.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
And I thought that I could share my story and help
people on that same journey that, um, I truly believe that a
hard horse is not necessarilysomething that just you meet and
boom, you're, you're besties.
It's a process, and with myhorse, your besties.
It's a process, and with myhorse it was particularly
challenging.
I raised her from a baby butshe was quite a challenging
(07:30):
personality and I had to.
I'm not sure that I evercompletely had her respect as
her leader.
I think she was kind of one ofthose very opinionated horses
that just it was in her tochallenge things and in a
dominance perspective.
I'm not sure that I was numberone all the time, but but we
(07:51):
definitely trusted each other.
I would take her out onbareback trail rides around the
property.
Um, I felt very safe with her,even though she had her own
ideas and I.
There were so many times as ayoung horse that I wanted to
give up on her and I just wantedpeople to know that, like any
relationship, sometimes you haveto work for it.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Sometimes it's not easy.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
You have to figure out what motivates them, what do
they like, how can you meetthem where they're at, and I
just it occurred to me I coulddo this thing and and share.
Actually that's how the podcaststarted.
It was the first thing.
My first season is about hardhorses and I interviewed a bunch
of people who have have or hadhad a hard horse and their story
(08:38):
.
I just wanted people to knowsome of those themes that you
might have to stick with achallenging horse to get to the
other side, to find that levelof connection.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Oh, I understand completely.
Those people who have beenlistening to the podcast know
about my.
I have seven horses right now,seven Morgans, but the old ones
are old, retired Morgans fromForever Morgan's Rescue and
places like that.
The three young ones, oh, andthen the brand new one that is a
riding horse actually Anotherwhole other story.
The three young ones that camefrom Montana came as a
(09:13):
three-year-old and two yearlingsfillies, and the two yearling
fillies were just completelymalleable, like I'm with you, I
know, you know I've been on therange, but people are great and
now they're a three-year-old andthey're a blast, just a blast
Like what a joy.
You know, the three-year-old,who's now five, has always been
(09:33):
a challenge because she isworried that I'm not going to be
, I'm not a good leader, and Idon't blame her because I have
this.
When we first got her wecouldn't get close to her and
she would kick out defensivelyif you got close.
Never had horses like that, andso I was afraid.
I'm like I don't know how tohandle this.
But after learning more aboutattunement and body language and
(09:55):
calmness and trying to likeregulate myself, then she got
calmer.
So it's been two years and sonow I'm not afraid of worried
about her kicking me.
But she gets wound up prettyfast, like if something, because
she was the watcher of her herdof like there's 60 mares and
foals, so she was a watcher, oneof the watchers.
That's her job, kind of how sheperceived the world.
(10:18):
And so she came here in a brandnew environment, although it's
very quiet and open, ruralWisconsin she is definitely
still there.
Could be, you know, there'd bemonsters somewhere and I know
she rests.
I know she lays down, I knowshe, you know, is doing all the
things she needs to do to behealthy and it's certainly
gotten better.
But it's amazing the differencebetween when I handle her and
(10:41):
when my trainer, tiffanyStauffer who I've done ahead of
my podcast, who's a Libertytrainer and does beautiful work
with attunement and working withhorses.
With Tiffany, she goes oh it'syou.
Okay, you know I can let go, Idon't have to watch, I'm with
you, I trust you With me.
She goes.
Well, you're afraid ofsomething.
Are you afraid of me?
(11:01):
Should I be afraid?
What are we afraid of?
And then she picks up all myfeelings and Tiffany said to me
you have to work out your fearfrom her because she's not doing
anything that is causing this.
You're living the fear you hadwhen you got hurt by that other
horse, broke your pelvis, allthis stuff happened to you.
Your hard horse died.
(11:22):
You're projecting everythingonto this poor mare who's done
nothing.
You know it was kind ofeyeopening like, yeah, probably,
how do I fix it?
So, yeah, so horses read us forsure.
You know, um, so I guess otherpeople would call her
challenging, like you know.
Um, I have not backed her,she's just five.
I'm letting her bones grow, I'mletting her back grow, I'm
(11:43):
letting her.
So you know, we do groundwork,and you know and then.
But if she gets up, then mybody gets up too, and I have to
learn how not to do that.
So how, how would you helpsomeone in my case?
I'm sure there's a lot of uswho are a little bit afraid of
our horses, and she's only 14hands.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I can't imagine having a big horse.
Yeah, yeah, it's definitelychallenging, I think, horses.
I've come to the conclusionthat Elena, my young horse that
I had raised, that I lost, thatone of her purposes on earth was
to teach me and in her case itwas a little different.
It wasn't really so much aboutthe fear, but with her it was
(12:29):
that I would get frustrated.
I'd ask her to trot and shewouldn't trot and I'd get
frustrated and then she'd getfrustrated back and that was our
spiral.
It was sort of a frustrationspiral but she eventually, with
some hope from a trainer, Ilearned not to get frustrated,
(12:50):
that that she was a horse thatjust took a while to warm up,
and I let that go and I just letthat be and I praised her when
she did do the things I asked,even if it wasn't her full
capability physically.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
If she was at all willing.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I praised her and I learned how to control myself,
because that's kind of what I'mgetting at that each of us
horses have so much to teach usin terms of the self-knowledge
and awareness of our emotionsand all of that.
So when I'm working withsomeone who's dealing with fear
(13:30):
which, by the way, I trulybelieve, all horse people do at
some point deal with some fearUsually if they have had an
accident or have been hurt, thenthe fear creeps in with their
future interactions with horses.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, yeah, no, I get it.
I'll just interrupt you justfor a second.
Um, for those that don't know,a couple of years ago I had a
Arab mare that we rescued and Ilove Arabs, I love my Morgans, I
love Arabs.
Um, we got her out of a badsituation, got her healthy, got
her going again.
She was trained to ride Um, butI was moving really slowly,
groundwork, things like thatthought I was building
(14:03):
relationship.
But when I slid onto herbareback from the fence, you
know, just to halt her, notasking anything after like time
and time and quiet, wasn'treading her body language and so
when I asked her to move, shekind of went and I've never been
on a horse that bucked.
I just haven't really been likeI mean, crow hops, yes, but not
(14:25):
a serious buck.
And I asked her to move again,like you know, just a squeeze,
can we just move away from youknow, a few steps?
That's all I'm asking for you.
She huffed up again and thenshe bucked really hard.
Well, I think it was reallyhard and just a halter, no
saddle, of course.
I went flying off and I landed,like when somebody has a mop
(14:47):
bucket and a mop sign, whensomebody is clean, you know, in
a commercial space, and theyhave the guy that is like
landing on his hip, like hislegs are up, his arms are up.
It's an illustration.
You know this like this bentbody.
I landed really hard and brokemy pelvis in three spots, and I
have never been hurt on a horse.
I mean, I've kicked a few times, you know, but never seriously
hurt.
And I was, um, already, likeyou know, 60 years old at that
(15:11):
point, 59, 60 years old, um, soa couple of years ago.
And it just that that threw meso hard that, um, I mean not she
literally threw me, but Ifigure she's it was in pain.
I think you know something wasgoing on with her back, there
was something I missed,something I just wasn't paying
attention to, thought I waslearning attunement, thought I
was learning those thingspushing way too fast, going too
(15:32):
fast.
So I project, I believe theminute a horse gets higher
brings up their level of anxiety.
Mine involuntarily kicks in.
So it's a joy that I have a newhorse that came to me.
It was an 18-year-old, morganGelding, been there, done that
fellow, and that's beenfantastic because I can ride him
(15:55):
bareback with no fear and he'sgreat.
But Rita transfers, I'm scaredof the five-year-old mare I have
now.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Sure, it makes sense.
You realize how fragile you are.
You realize how dangerous theyare, even if they're not trying
to hurt you but perhaps dealingwith some fear or whatever if
you miss the signals.
So I think a lot of it is thethings that you already were
doing with that Arab mare rightAttunement, paying attention,
(16:24):
learning their body language,checking in.
One of the things that one ofthe experiences I thought I'd
talk about actually is whathappened with me that caused me
to have fear recently.
I had recently become aprofessional trainer and was an
assistant trainer and wasrestarting a horse and we took
it from the beginning, didgroundwork, then then, you know,
(16:46):
leaned over him, then got on,then got off, you know all the
baby steps and I was up to thepoint of riding him, walk, trot
and canter off the lunge line.
But there was a horse in thearena, in the round pen which
was located inside the arena.
That was very upset, I'd say.
It was certainly eager to move,having been cooped up in a stall
(17:07):
, it was moving very fast, but Ithink it was also agitated and
the horse I was riding was notokay with that, like he'd been
fine as I had lunged him andthen as I got on, but he saw
that horse and was just likewhat is wrong with them I'm so
worried and was just like whatis wrong with them?
I'm so worried what's going on.
(17:28):
And he did this little like Imight bolt or I might buck, or
you know.
And then I calmed him down andthere were other trainers in the
arena and I felt that I neededto stay on.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So I did, and he did it again Like oh, I don't know,
I'm not okay with that, and Istayed on again.
But I had this little nigglingvoice I call it, you know, your
intuition, right.
That said, maybe it would bebetter to get off.
You know, just get themcomfortable again.
You can always get back onlater.
But I ignored it.
And then, third time, he tookoff galloping and bucking,
(18:02):
broncing.
I can ride a buck, but this wasbig.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I get it and eventually I came off in the
corner of the arena.
I, thankfully, was wearing ahelmet and a safety vest and
just had a headache, so probablya mild concussion from it.
But I also learned my lessonthat it doesn't matter how much
relationship you've developedwith the horse, If they go over
threshold you're not safe withthem and you should really
listen to your intuition aboutwhere that line is and if, if
(18:34):
you get the sense that youshould stop or go back to where
the horse feels safe, help themfrom the ground or or you know,
if you were asking anything ofthem, any pressure, is there a
way to step that back?
Anyway, so After that Idefinitely dealt with a lot of
(18:55):
fear.
I did get back on him, in factthat same day and a couple weeks
later, after trying to workmyself up to it, I did ride him
again, but I was definitely verynervous with him.
So even though here I am aprofessional trainer, I'm like,
okay, that's all right, we'regoing to do what it takes.
I'm going to ride the horses Ifeel safe to ride and I'm only
going to ride them.
(19:15):
And if I only feel safe at awalk, I'm only going to walk.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
That is so gratifying to hear because you know, we,
we compare ourselves to othersand oh, these people are riding
their five-year-old and they'redoing this and that, and dah,
dah, dah, dah, you know, and andlike, they're always farther
ahead.
You know, like when Facebookfirst came out or the, the
social media was like, you know,oh, their life is better.
You know, likely, I didn't fallinto that, but there's people
(19:40):
who do, who you know, fuss thatsomebody's got it better and
different.
It's gratifying to hear thateven professionals like yourself
, with lots of experience andyears of riding, can have doubts
and can have, you know, momentsof anxiety and worry about
things.
I think that what you're sayingis being aware of it and then
letting it.
You know, moments of anxietyand worry about things.
I think that what you're sayingis being aware of it and then
letting it.
You know, work through, insteadof ignoring it, which the horse
(20:02):
will pick up, whether you causeyou're not being congruent at
that point, so it's better to behonest and just work through
your feelings with the horse.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And I very much advocate going back to what
feels safe for you as well asfor the horse and whoever.
Whoever is scared, you go down.
As for the horse and whoever isscared, you go down to like the
sort of the lowest commondenominator, right.
Whoever is more scared, we getto go down to where they feel
safe because of the way yourfear and the horse's feet on
each other.
(20:31):
And in my case, I was ridingsafe horses, so it was me who
was setting the line and I think, more than anything, that gave
me my confidence back, that Iwould not let my trainer or
anyone else push me beyond whatI felt comfortable with and
because of that, all of my ridesI was experiencing felt safe to
me and so, with only goodexperiences going forward, it
(20:52):
wasn't long before I wasrecovering my confidence and in
fact, I sat on my baby horsethat summer for the first time.
But there again, my heart wasthumping and I'm like, oh, is
this the excitement of my firsttime riding my horse that I've
raised from a baby, or am Iscared?
And I'm like, I'm not even sure.
(21:12):
But you know what?
I'm going to take a break.
She was good for that, that wasfine and we'll come back to it
in a bit, like maybe six monthsor a year.
It ended up being about a yearlater before I got on her again
and by then I was more able toregulate my emotions and my
racing heart, my fear, and belike, okay, we've developed all
(21:34):
this, more trust of all of ourgroundwork that we've done.
She's a good girl.
She didn't do anything lasttime, she's not going to do
anything.
And I was just able to calmmyself further.
And I was further removed frommy own fear incident, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
No, I get it.
That's why Teddy Sharp, thelittle Morgan Gelding that has
come into my life, that'strained and rideable and, you
know, just a lot of fun.
So honest, such an honestlittle guy, it's helping me
build my confidence again.
I just mentioned on Facebookthe other day, a couple days ago
I hadn't ridden him much inJune because we were working
(22:10):
tons and tons.
Finally had a chance to ridehim again, figured out the cinch
on my Western, because myWestern saddle is the only one
that fits him right now.
I usually write English.
The cinch was too long, it wasgoing to hit him in the wrong
spots, it wasn't set up.
So I said, well, I can't usethis saddle, I'll just ride him
bareback.
And you know that's like being14.
I mean, it just was so much funto just tool around the
(22:32):
property and you know, let himfeel good about it.
And I asked lots of yesquestions and he answered lots
of yes questions and therewasn't any conflict.
And I let him even decide whereto go.
And you think he'd be hurtbound somewhat, want to go back?
No, he's like I haven't seenthis part, let's go over here.
And it was just like such aconfidence builder that I could.
(22:52):
Okay, I'm not going to get hurtevery single time I get near,
you know, on a horse.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's so awesome.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I didn't have a riding horse for a long time my
young ones and then, like I said, the rescues.
We don't ride, so I didn't havea riding horse for a long time,
so I got sent what I needed.
This horse came into my life.
Well, that had some stuff totalk about.
What are small things that youcan do to deepen your connection
(23:20):
with your horse?
Any suggestions?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I think the biggest thing we can do to deepen our
connection with our horses isnot ask anything of them.
Spend time with them where Icall it undemanding time.
You're not asking them to doanything for you.
No-transcript.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So I think just spending time that's undemanding
and that depends on the horse.
If it's a feral horse or arescue or something and it
doesn't want to be touched,grooming would not be a
comfortable thing to it.
But if it's a horse that you've, you know, worked with before,
and you know that they love tobe scritched, you know, then,
that's a great thing to do withthem.
It all depends on the horse,but wherever they feel safe with
(24:30):
you, I think less is more.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Oh, I'd have to agree when we found out Rita's
favorites.
Rita, that's the five-year-oldthat was anxious, her scratching
spots.
It's like a communication adoor opens.
And now it's kind of funnybecause now we've learned that,
oh, she likes her butt scratched, you know, on top of her butt.
So now when I'm out there withthe group, she'll just back into
(24:55):
me as gently as possible,telling me very clearly because
of their body language I'm notgoing to kick your head off,
it's more like please scratch me.
And that's a real treat for her.
It's like I.
Just because she can't reach it.
It makes it really hard To theunsuspecting, though if she
likes you, she'll turn and wantto back into you and you kind of
(25:15):
go like whoa, what was shedoing?
So it's probably not the bestthing to have caught her, but
but it certainly helped buildrelationship, cause I started
out through the fence.
You know, like I didn't justgrab at her and reach at her, we
started out scratching fromthrough.
You know, I'm on one side ofthe fence, she's on the other,
so I wasn't afraid of gettingkicked.
She wasn't, um, she wasn'tanxious about me moving around a
(25:35):
lot.
I was able to finally get downand touch her back, legs reach
all over her body, that sherealizes that nothing bad is
going to happen, that it'sactually quite pleasant.
But that took patience andself-discipline, because it
always seems like when yourhorse is doing great well, let's
do more, and it doesn't workthat way.
It's better to stop at the peakof like this is wonderful.
Okay, we're done for today.
(25:56):
You know, same thing with.
I'm an animal trainer, as youknow, so when I work with my
animal actors, it's the samething.
Um, dog's doing great on set.
Great on set.
He's lovely, happy, smiling,and I go okay, you got
everything.
I'll tell the photographer youknow he needs it's like I can
(26:17):
read that it's time Dog is done.
Gave us everything.
We're ending on that because Iwant that to be the best day
ever.
So if you think about yourhorses and the way you interact
with them, trying to always bethe best day ever for them, now
maybe the best day for them isout hanging, grazing and not
being asked to do anything.
But I found and maybe you foundthis to be true too when you
(26:39):
have a horse that you're reallyworking with in a good, positive
way, they actually want to bepart of the team.
You talk about a herd of two,and I love that concept.
Let's talk about a herd of twoKind of goes along with what I'm
saying.
I think.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
So when I first met my current horse, my filly, she
was hiding behind her mom and Ihad seen a video of her moving
and I was like she's beautiful,but I don't know one that hides
behind her mom is not really forme.
Me like, yeah, please scritchme, you know, and she got to
come in with her mom and havegrain and she's like, oh, I like
coming into stalls and seeingpeople because I get extra
attention and I get scritchiesand I get food.
So for her it was always apositive thing.
It didn't take long or and itwas not difficult to halter
(27:35):
train her.
We just put it on her and thenwe walked following mom.
I didn't have to pull on it,you know she was following her
mother anyway, and she was, youknow, she became pretty
independent pretty quick.
She pretty soon was like oh,you're kind of like my second
mom, like you also give me foodand help me feel safe and make
me feel good.
Okay, so sometimes we wouldtake her mom into a stall and
(27:58):
her into the stall next to it,sure, and they'd both have food.
They could still see each other.
You know, she didn't feelseparated or anxious about it.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Right, you were careful not to put her over
threshold.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Exactly, and that's what it all comes down to.
Another horse might not havebeen okay with that same plan,
so I I think that's reallyimportant in horse training to
tailor it to the individual, butwe definitely became a herd of
two.
You know, she feels like she'snot alone if I'm there with her
as long as I'm present and I'msafe for her.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, so say you have a horse that's new to you, or
an older horse you know, asopposed to a youngster who might
, who might have had such goodexperiences and open you know
where another horse might've hadsome bad experiences may not be
as open Any suggestions forbuilding that herd of two with
with them.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Well, I think, there again, I would suggest the
non-demanding time spend timethat is good for them and not
scary for them, whatever thatlooks like for that horse I do
think a lot of horses and findout what motivates them.
Right, A lot of horses respondwell to grooming or scritching
if they're itchy Sometimes.
(29:10):
I'm not above using foodrewards, and not really as a
reward but more as a here's.
We're going to make thisexperience together positive and
if this helps that be positivefor you, then we'll do that.
A third thing is just payingattention, being aware of where
threshold is for them andstaying under that line.
So I've I mentioned my sensitivemare.
(29:32):
That was my second horse.
Her name was Kaleidoscope andshe was very separation anxious.
Second horse, Her name wasKaleidoscope and she was very
separation anxious.
So taking her to a new barn, asI did when I got her, then
separating her from the horsethat she was turned out with,
she was very nervous and I thinkthe thing that helped the most
was okay, if you're not okay,away from that herd, mate, I'll
(29:53):
go into that pasture with youand that horse and I'll groom
you there.
I'll spend time with you there.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Right.
Work with them where they'recomfortable to build a
relationship for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
So baby steps and find out what, like I said, what
motivates them, what helps themfeel safe and work within that.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
That's a great idea.
Well, let's talk a little bitabout dressage.
It looks like you just got abronze medal.
That's for those who are startfrom the beginning pretend that
some of us know absolutelynothing about dressage.
It's a competitive sport.
It's kind of in the spotlightright now for good and bad
reasons.
So I can imagine that you're anadvocate for dressage in the
(30:34):
way that it should be done andwell for the benefit of the
horse, like the best possibleexperience for the horse.
But anyway, let's just kind ofa quick primer on what dressage
is and how exciting it is to wina bronze medal and how much
work that was and how horses canbenefit.
Horses and riders can benefitfrom learning this ancient art
(30:54):
together in a positive way.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Absolutely, I'm absolutely in love with that
kind of dressage, the kind thatis helping them to use their
bodies in a healthier way sothat they can be sounder, live
longer, be happier also in theirwork.
I've been like.
I mentioned that I've done ponyclub, so I learned a bit about
dressage and eventing from afairly young age and it didn't
(31:22):
take me long to discover mypreference for dressage.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
And let's define dressage versus eventing or
other sports.
Pretend like they're not,because our audience is like cat
and dog people as well.
You know so.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah, so eventing is.
I often describe it as whatChristopher Reeves did it's
jumping over obstacles outsidein a wide open space.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Terrifying, by the way.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yep.
So that's the cross countrypart of eventing.
And then they also do showjumping, which is jumping a
horse over obstacles in a fencearea, and dressage, which is no
jumps but just doing figures inan arena, so it might involve
circles or diagonal lines acrossit, or serpentines or a variety
of different things.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
It's showing like a dance and a relationship between
the rider and the horse.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
When it's done properly.
It looks like both are having areally good time.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yes, it should be very harmonious and it's.
I describe it as.
Really it is a lot like dancingwith the horse.
You want to have a connection,you want it to flow and be fluid
and and for no one horse orrider to be uncomfortable or
upset.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
That's the ideal.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Of course there are moments, especially in training,
but it is always the goal thatyou and the horse are as
confident and as comfortable aspossible.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Okay, and so the bronze medal.
What does that mean?
Pretty exciting.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, so a bronze medal is the first medal of its
kind.
In dressage there's differentlevels, so at the Olympics they
do the Grand Prix level and abronze medal is, like I said,
sort of the bottom one wherethere's introductory level is
walking and trotting.
Training level is walk,trotting and cantering and some
(33:12):
circles, and then a bronze medalis first, second and third
levels, getting two scores fromtwo different judges at two
different shows of 60% or higher.
So it's really a pass fail.
It's not a high bar, but in theway dressage is judged.
It's challenging, but I'm justsaying the percentage is not
(33:34):
particularly high but it ischallenging.
So first through second levelsare sort of the basics of
dressage, where you might dosome what we call lateral work,
where the horse is movingsideways as well as forwards,
Developing some collection atsecond and third levels and some
impulsion even at the firstlevel.
So it is challenging and it's anice marker along the way of
(33:58):
you're on the right path andyou're learning what you need to
learn to be effective in thatdiscipline and to move up.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
That's really cool.
Congratulations, that's apretty neat thing.
Okay, so I'm going to just peekat my notes here.
Okay, so I'm going to just peekat my notes here.
In some of your essays you talkabout the importance of
perspective and attitude.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Let's talk about that a little bit.
Yeah, so I think this goesalong to what we were talking
about earlier about fear andabout frustration in riding.
I think both are very sadly toocommon, but I think it's really
important for us to recognizewhen our emotions are getting in
the way of our connection withour horse and our enjoyment of
our ride.
So I have a background ofbachelor's in psychology and
(34:50):
I've always been interested inpersonality and emotional
regulation and all those things.
So it really comes natural tome to bring that awareness to
everything I do with horses andwith their people.
So I help people to become moreaware of how they're feeling
emotionally while they're ridingor interacting with their horse
(35:10):
.
A lot of what I do with peopleis, in fact, groundwork.
It isn't necessarily involvingriding at all, depending on the
comfort level of the horse andthe rider and what they're
working on and all of that.
But I think it's very importantfor us to be aware of how we
are asking our horse to dosomething, and it's not just
(35:31):
whether there's fear orfrustration, but it's also
things like how confident areyou in what you're asking?
Do you know what you're doingand does the horse know that you
know what you're doing, becauseoften horses will feel lost or
like they don't have strongleadership if the handler isn't
confident.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
And consistent and consistent, yeah, and they're
masters at reading energy, right?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, so if we project a very calm, positive
energy, they're drawn to us.
They're like oh, you seem safeand you know what's going on.
So I'm going to trust you.
But if you're scared or ifyou're angry or if you're sad,
even they, they feel that andthey go.
Hmm, you know, if they'redistrustful to begin with, they
(36:16):
might give you a little bit morebirth.
If you have a good relationshipwith your horse and you're
feeling sad, they may absolutelycome and like, put their head
in your arms and comfort you.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
And I think they appreciate.
Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I was just gonna say I think they appreciate
emotional honesty, so, beingwhat you really feel, they do
appreciate honesty, so beingwhat you really feel they do
appreciate Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
This is why horses make such excellent animals to
work with in therapy for peoplewith all kinds of issues or
things going on in their lives.
I've always joked how horsesfor me are cheaper than you know
therapy or having a, becausethat you know.
I talked to them, you know so,and I I've only suffered
depression.
You know it was like a seriousdepression at all.
(37:02):
I've been really blessed when Iwas horseless you know just for
a very short time I washorseless, and then I look at it
like God sent me another horseway back when, because I just
can't be who I am without them.
So they, they are my therapistfor sure.
And when we had girls come andlive with us that had lots of
(37:22):
trauma and lots of things goingon, horses were a great gift to
them to be able to learn toregulate their emotions, to
learn that they can be strongaround something bigger.
They can say, yes, please, moveover, please, I'm here, I'm
actually here.
You know, uh, please come withme, uh, get, find their voice in
(37:43):
a way, um, and and horsesabsolutely know when you're, uh,
what your emotions are.
You know.
So they depending on the horseand what they do with them, but
you're, this is for sure, a realthing depending on the horse
and what they do with them, butyou're, this is for sure, a real
thing.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, and that's one of the things that I appreciate
about my young filly, becauseshe was mostly untouched when I
got her.
I've been able to give her alot of confidence in handling
people and our world, but she'salso very sensitive because
she's not been deliberatelydulled down as some horses are
are by their handling withpeople, and so I've learned how
(38:22):
to be more aware and moreintentional with the energy I
bring to our sessions together.
So, especially as a young horse,she would like coming in the
arena and just being playful,you know, going for a run and
kicking up her heels and woo,you know.
And I recently startedcantering her a little bit and
(38:43):
that was the energy that helpedus the most to pick up.
That canter was just verywoohoo, let's have fun.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
And.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I thought she might buck or something, but she did
not.
I think she has this awarenessof me up there and wants to keep
me safe.
But, I think it's reallyhelpful to deepen that level of
awareness, to be around animalsthat are still very sensitive.
Your mare, who's five, alsostrikes me as like that,
especially as she was thewatcher for her herd.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Yeah, she's sensitive is right.
It can be a gift, especiallycompared to the other two, you
know.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, it can be a gift as well as a challenge.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Well, I always felt those kind of mares.
Once you have the relationship,they will climb a tree for you.
It's like they will, they willbond with you, the mares
especially, I feel.
I mean I love my gelding too,but the mares are like okay, I
got your back, we're together inthis.
I just always felt that way,you know, because the prior hard
horse was a bear like that, youknow.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Absolutely.
I love mares, and not that Idon't love geldings too, but I'm
absolutely with you.
I think mares can take that toa whole nother level.
They all have this inherentsort of mothering-ness that they
will take care of you rightback, and self-preservation.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Like you know, if I'm going to preserve myself, I'll
preserve you as well, if youhave the relationship.
I think that's why I have sixmares and one gelding.
It's probably Wonderful, Allright.
Another thing that you writeabout is spooking, and spooking
is when a horse gets startledfor an audience that doesn't
know.
So you might be riding alongand something catches his
attention.
(40:19):
You know, a bird flies up adeer, a car back, something loud
, something happens that thehorse doesn't understand and he
reacts.
So he can react with a big buckand run and jump, or he can
just stand, stock still and takeit in Lots of ways to spook.
How do we help a horse workthrough spook so he doesn't get
hurt and you don't get hurt?
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I think I don't mean this to sound as a cop-out, but
I think the ideal is to try toavoid in the first place to not
set them over threshold, to givethem confidence in their time
with you whatever it's lookinglike.
Ideally, the more of that youhave before a spook happens, the
better, but they are preyanimals, right?
(41:02):
Anything can happen at any time.
So I think it's important forus to be aware of our own
emotional state and, if we getstartled, to bring ourselves
back down as soon as possible,take a nice deep breath, let it
out.
In my.
in the research that I've doneon trauma, I've read that
animals will often shake theirwhole body to release a stressor
(41:26):
, even like deer that have justbeen chased but gotten away from
a predator or something, and Ithink that that sort of shake it
off is something that peopleare not naturally not naturally
maybe it's not natural, butwe're often not good at and I
think if we're able to let it goquickly, we can model that for
our horses.
(41:46):
So when I took my filly to herfirst horse show recently, there
were all these people aroundthe arena, you know, talking,
and there were horses calling.
There were lots of distractions, Sure, and I just spent the
entire ride just taking thesedeep exhaling type breaths while
we're riding around.
So she knew that I was relaxedabout all of it.
(42:08):
Oh, this is just a person.
Oh, that's just a horse.
And the only spook that I hadin the whole two rides that I
did was she was trotting acrossthe diagonal and she walked.
That's all it was she didn'teven stop.
She just was like whoa, what'sthat?
I'm going to look and slow downand take a closer look, you
know, and she didn't even turnall that much.
(42:28):
But there was a person standingbehind the judge's table and
that hadn't been there and shejust had to look at it a moment
and I think that's becausepartly of the energy I was
bringing to the encounter andpartly all of the work we'd done
previously.
That said, I was out on thetrail with her and there was a
deer and the deer took offrunning and my horse was
(42:49):
definitely very spooked it wasprobably the biggest spook she's
had and she took a couple ofstrides of canter and I did what
you do in that situation, right, like take up the reins, try to
stop the animal.
And then I released the reinsbecause I didn't want her to
feel continually trapped.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
She was slowing down.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
I'm like, okay, you're good, you're you're good,
I'm good, we're all good.
We took some deep breaths and Ipet her neck and actually I
dismounted because I we had hadfive or six little triggers that
had happened that day beforethe deer and I'm like, with all
those things, if something elsehappens, there's going to be an
even bigger spook.
(43:27):
Let's just walk in hand therest of the way, have a good
experience, stay safe, calm down, and she was great.
Some animals would have reallyheld onto that tension and are
more challenging with spooks.
So if your horse is the kindthat can take a fearful moment
and calm quickly, ideally that'sthe goal.
(43:51):
If they're not, which a lot ofhorses aren't.
My previous mare kaleidoscopewould have held on to that fear
for quite a long time.
It's still important for us notto be triggered by their fear.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
To take the emotional control ourselves.
Take the deep breaths Um, ifyou can almost maybe this sounds
crazy, but almost meditate, um,you don't want to lose all
awareness of the horse becausethey may have lost awareness of
you.
If they're sufficiently scared,they may be a threat to you.
(44:23):
So you have to be careful.
But I would say get back to asafe zone.
If that means dismounting,going to a slower gate, you know
it depends on your thresholdand the horses but try to get
back to a safer zone as quicklyas possible as you can so that
both of you can calm down andreset.
(44:43):
And I'm not opposed to, you know, starting again.
I think sometimes horses alsoare more likely to spook if they
have a physical issue, if theyare in pain in any way or
uncomfortable.
So be aware of that as well.
(45:03):
If it becomes a frequentproblem, it's possible that
there's something, and I thinkthis adaptively makes sense.
If they're feeling a littlesore, like maybe they can't
safely run away from a threat,they might be more likely to
startle, you know, or try toavoid a scary situation.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
I think spooking is really challenging, but I think
a lot of it comes to how muchwe're capable of controlling
ourselves I think I agree um thebreathing, calming yourself,
waiting for them to calmthemselves, resetting, um, not
forcing them past somethingspooky, let them.
Let them reset, go back whereyou need to go back and you
start over if you need to,things like that.
That's all really good advice.
(45:46):
And not being ashamed to getoff.
There's no shame in like beingsafe.
Sometimes our eagle like wecan't see them or they think the
horse is, you know, takingadvantage of us.
No, you're just helping yourhorse, help you and help himself
.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
And it depends on the horse, but sometimes you can
actually use their curiosity toto help, I know some people
don't recommend letting themlook at the scary object, but if
they are a naturally curioushorse, sometimes I've found that
that can actually help.
If they, you know, seesomething that startles them and
and you both are able toregulate down a little bit, it
might actually make sense to goover and take a closer look.
Oh, for sure Because curiosityis a great counterpoint to fear.
(46:29):
Well, yeah not all horses, someof them.
If you do that, they'll be likeoh, my fear is reinforced.
You're looking at it too.
So it does depend on the horse.
What's going to work best it'shard to give a blanket answer.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
When I'm building attunement with a horse and
working with a horse, buildingrelationship.
If he looks at something in thedistance, he puts his head up
and he looks and he's alert,maybe not necessarily over
threshold, but definitelyinterested.
I take Warwick Schiller'sadvice and just look where he's
looking Like oh, I see it too.
Oh gosh, there's a half mileaway, there's a car going down
(47:05):
the road.
I see it.
Okay, you know like that.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
And then the horse goes.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Oh, okay, See, so you saw, at least you I'm aware of
what he was looking at, whichmade him feel safer, because the
watcher herd horse, someonelike Rita is like, don't you see
it?
I mean we should all beconcerned, you know.
And so if I just go oh, youknow, that's just a, that's just
a combine, two fields away,nothing to worry about I can see
her physically, you know,physically go, oh okay, but she
(47:31):
kind of needs that reinforcementfrom me.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yeah, yeah, they need to know that you are aware too
Exactly.
And if you can see somethingand then dismiss it, be like oh
yeah, I see that, but I'm notworried about it.
And even saying that's just afill in the blank, I think that
helps.
I think the horses hear thattone and that attitude and you
know what it is, even if theydon't know that word.
(47:54):
Right, you know what it is andyou're not worried that does
reassure them Exactly.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, I don't know how I'd feel if I saw a bear.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Well, they're unlikely to eat a horse.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
True, true, true.
No, I know, I'm just, I'm justjoking, but it's like you know
things, that things that I canlook at and go, yeah, it's fine,
you know not everything isgoing to be a not worried about
but, but if you are able to havethat thought, even I think it
would still help.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Oh, that's a bear, but it's over there.
We're going to go this way.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
We're not going to bother the bear.
At least in Wisconsin we havethese nice black bears and not
like grizzlies out West Blackbear.
Just assume not see you and youknow, move away.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
So not a problem, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Well, this has been really interesting.
We could do so many more ofthese because you've just a font
of information and good stufffor our listeners.
But we're to the part of theshow which we call the questions
, and what I had done when Isent you the intake form about
the podcast is send you a listof questions that we stole from
Tim Ferriss's book Tribe ofMentors.
(48:56):
It's just, these are just greatinterview questions, and so we
like doing this on the show.
We we sent you 20 questions.
You had the opportunity to pickfive of those questions that
you wanted to answer, so I'mjust going to ask away, okay,
All right.
All right.
What has been your biggestfailure and how has it helped
you?
Speaker 2 (49:15):
So this one I've already talked about this was
that um experience as a youngassistant trainer where my horse
bucked me off and I think,looking back on it, one could
say the failure was the falling.
But I disagree.
The failure was not listeningto my intuition.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
And how did it help me?
Well, I'm never going to dothat again.
If I feel unsafe on a horse,I'm going to get down.
I'm going to bring it back to alevel where everyone feels safe
.
I think life is too short andhorses are too potentially
dangerous to just push past.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
I think that's really good advice.
The next one is if you couldsend a message to the world,
what would that be?
Or do you have a favorite quote, and why?
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Can I answer both of those, of course?
Okay, all right, great.
I think my message to the worldis that we should always be
open to learning.
I think it's easy for people tofeel like we have it figured
out, like we've learned whatwe're going to learn.
We know what we know, and Ithink it's really important to
(50:21):
dive deeper.
What more can you learn aboutwho you are, how you feel, how
you think, what's your intuition?
I really think it's helpful forpeople to figure out the voices
in our head and learn todifferentiate them.
What is your fear talking?
What is your intuition?
What's the voice of rationalthinking and reason, and can you
(50:45):
tell which one's talking to youat what time?
It really helps you to figureout the way forward to navigate
life's challenges.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Oh, that's very good advice.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
I think it also helps you to differentiate between
your own perspective and that oflike your horses or another
person's, if you know what voiceis talking to you in your head.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Right and your favorite quote.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
My favorite quote is Marianne Williamson.
She said love is what we are,both, what we are born with.
Fear is what we learn.
The spiritual journey is theunlearning of fear and
prejudices and the acceptance oflove back in our hearts.
Love is the essential realityand our purpose on earth.
(51:27):
To be consciously aware of it,to experience love in ourselves
and others is the meaning oflife.
Meaning does not lie in things.
Meaning lies in us.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
That is a lovely quote and so true, that's great.
All right, um, what is theworst advice given in your
profession or bad idea that youhear of in your field of
expertise?
Speaker 2 (51:54):
I think, for me, just the thing that comes to me
today is the practice ofdesensitizing, in which people
flood horses and training withall sorts of things.
I'm absolutely not opposed toexposing them to umbrellas,
tarps, flags, whatever you want,but I think instead of
overwhelming them and creating ashutdown horse who feels that
(52:19):
they can't move or a state oflearned helplessness.
I think it's more important tobuild that curiosity, like I
mentioned earlier, introducethem to things and allow them
the chance to approach, toexplore it, to learn to have
confidence in themselves, intheir handler and in their world
.
As a result, my horse is one ofthe bravest, most sensible
(52:39):
young horses I know.
So, as a result, like my horseis one of the bravest, most
sensible young horses I know,and I think it really helps with
any horse if you can developtheir confidence with objects
and experiences like the washstall and trailer loading and
all of that, rather thanoverwhelming them by just doing
(53:00):
it.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
You know if you can take it in baby steps.
Give them confidence.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
I agree.
What is your relationship withfear?
For the longest time I tried toavoid it.
I hate being afraid.
Even as a kid I was not anadventurous child.
I did do a little cross countryjumping, but I was not the like
, bold, let's do it type of kid.
But now I know you can't avoidit, especially if you're a very
highly sensitive person or ahorse person.
(53:35):
And I'm both, so I've learnedinstead to acknowledge it, to
take it into consideration, tothank it for its feedback.
I think you have to acknowledgeit and be like yes, I see you, I
know why you're afraid, andthen, if necessary, modify my
actions and my choices to keepme safe.
So, like I said, there are waysto change your level of risk,
(54:00):
and I certainly do that when itmakes sense to, and I think fear
needn't hold you back, but itis important and it can actually
keep you safe if you listen toit without letting it run your
life.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Exactly All right.
And then, what quality do youadmire most in people?
Do?
Speaker 2 (54:22):
you admire most in people.
At first, I consideredanswering this with the quality
of empathy, and, while Icertainly appreciate others'
compassion and understanding forothers, I think I value honesty
as much or more, and I don'tmean necessarily bluntness, but
it takes a lot of courage to befully authentic and honest with
(54:47):
others.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Indeed, yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.
No go ahead With horses.
You can't be any other way.
You have to be honest, go aheadand finish your thoughts, sorry
.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
No, yeah, they, absolutely.
They ask us to be authentic,right, to be congruent, like you
said earlier, and especiallywhen you have a lot of kindness
and care for others and don'twish to hurt their feelings,
being able to be gently honestwith others is such a powerful
thing.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
Oh, absolutely when I was working with the young
people having to learnboundaries, because you just
want to take on everything andyou want to fix everything and
you can't, you know.
So that was.
I understand that what you'resaying, the empathy is good, but
also being honest about what'spossible and what.
What you can do, you know, andwhat you can't do.
And like, people's journeys aretheir own, you know.
(55:40):
So.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
I truly believe that gentle honesty, with enough
empathy to soften, it, is betterfor healthy relationships than
even the most well-intentioneddishonesty.
To keep the peace.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
Yeah, for sure, yeah, passive aggressive not great.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
Just to tell them how you feel.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
You know it's scary too.
It's hard to just to tell themhow you feel.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
you know it's scary too.
It's hard too, right right.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
But I'm a fan of honesty.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
There you go.
This is great.
Well, I tell you we've had areally wonderful hour with you.
So, for people who want to findyou, communicate with you, if
they're in the area, work withyou, are you going to do?
You do clinics in the future,or there's other projects you
want to talk about that you'reworking on.
Just just give us all yourself-promotion.
It will make sure that we getall the links you send us and
(56:29):
things that all go up on theshow notes and on the Web site
and everything.
But let's hear it from you howdo we find you?
Speaker 2 (56:35):
Yeah, well, probably the easiest way is I have a
Facebook page called HarmoniousEquestrian Connection and I post
there, but I'm also happy torespond to individual messages
and talk with people.
I do work with people virtuallyas well.
Speaker 1 (56:51):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (56:52):
They need to be local here to the Twin Cities area of
Minnesota.
I would love to do that inperson if they are local, but if
not, I do a lot of coachingover the phone or through Zoom
as well, so it can either be avirtual lesson of sorts or even
just talking about yourrelationship with your horse and
your challenges, and I can giveyou ideas and suggestions of
(57:14):
how to work through things.
That's wonderful.
I would love to do clinics aswell.
I haven't yet, but I do travelto some barns that are a little
further away and kind of do onceone day, once a month.
So I really tailor what I offerto what the individual needs.
It can be everything from Ihave one client who is three
times a week to, like I said,once a month, just depending on
(57:38):
what the needs are of the horsehandler and the horse needs are
of the horse handler and thehorse.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Oh, I agree, that's wonderful.
I appreciate that.
Okay, well, we'll make sure toget these connections on the
notes so people can find you ifneed be, and also links, of
course, to your podcast, becauseI think you have so much to
offer and your guests have somuch to offer, and isn't it
wonderful?
We live in a world now wherethe knowledge is right there in
front of us and so many peoplecan share good stuff.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
Yeah, I love learning from all the people out there
from all over the world who arealso promoting this sort of
thing, this this kindness andempathy towards horses and and
other animals and people.
I think I do believe we're onthe forefront of a shift.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
There seems to be a forefront of a shift in how
we're thinking about horses.
More and more People like youand Lockie Phillips and Warwick
Schiller and you know a lot ofthe guests that we've had on our
show Carrie Lake and MaryCornyn I could go on and on Dr
Susan Fay are all part like thevanguard of a new relationship
and understanding with horses,which can only benefit horses
(58:42):
and people In the dog world.
I think it's been going on fora while.
They're getting away from theseaversive methods of training
that are quite harmful to a dog,the dog's psychology as well.
Horses is taking a littlelonger.
The cultural shift is taking alittle longer, but it's a start
and more and more people thatare listening and doing their
best to not get their horses toa state of shutdown or a state
(59:05):
of sheer panic or you know notor ways that can harm a horse in
the long run, not even justphysically, but emotionally
caring about it.
This is so huge, and so we'regrateful there's people like you
, voices like you out there,your willingness to help other
people, and we thank you verymuch for being on the podcast
today.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Yeah, I just wanted to say, too, my my podcast, my latest
season, is about harmony withhorses, so I've been
interviewing people who areprofessionals in some sort of
horse field, whether it's horsemassage or chiropractic, or a
horse trainer or whatever it isthey do with horses, getting
their perspective on.
(59:43):
I even interviewed a dressagejudge but, getting their
perspective on how can wedevelop more harmony with horses
.
As you mentioned, dressage hasbeen in the news for some
unsavory things and the abusesand the dark side of it, and I
wanted to talk about what we cando better.
What are we aiming for, whatdoes harmony with the horse look
(01:00:05):
like and how do we get there?
So I'm excited to interviewmore people as part of that too,
and and share their stories andtheir ideas.
I just think there's, like yousaid, it's, a wonderful movement
and I'm so glad to be a part ofit.
Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Absolutely, Absolutely so.
The horses thank you and Ithank you, and I'm sure the
audience will be glad to havelistened to the podcast.
So thank you again, Ingrid.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Thanks for having me.
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