March 1, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode of The Empathetic Trainer podcast, host Barbara O’Brien chats with Jessica Gonzalez, a dedicated horse rescuer and author of Equine Empowerment. They discuss how horses help people heal, the power of positive reinforcement training, and the deep bond between horses and young people. Jessica shares her journey, the challenges of running a nonprofit, and the importance of trust, patience, and second chances—both for horses and humans.
Key Takeaways:
- Horses provide healing and companionship, especially for those struggling socially.
- Positive reinforcement builds trust between horses and people.
- Understanding horse behavior and emotions improves training.
- Working with rescue horses teaches patience, resilience, and empathy.
- Jessica’s nonprofit empowers youth through equine therapy.
- Every horse—and every person—deserves a second chance.
Tune in for an inspiring conversation on love, trust, and the transformative power of horses!
https://www.empathetic-trainer.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien andyou're listening to the
Empathetic Trainer Podcast.
Today's guest is JessicaGonzalez.
She's a lifetime horse rescuerand author of Equine Empowerment
(00:36):
a Guide to PositiveReinforcement Training.
She runs Empowered EquinesRescue and Empowered Equestrians
Educational Program.
Welcome to the podcast, jessica.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
So those of you who are watching us on YouTube
there's a cat that is likereally stealing the show.
So before we even get started,we better introduce the cat.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
This is Night Fury.
He's named after the dragonfrom how to Train your Dragon,
and he's very, very friendly.
A little too friendly.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
That's no harm in that we like that, so now we all
know his name.
So, everyone, you don't have toworry about this sweet cat
coming in and out.
Well, I found you on Facebook,which is where I find a lot of
my horse people and you're doinga lot of interesting stuff.
And now that I see you face toface I'm like, wow, you're young
, which is great.
So why don't you just give us alittle introduction about, like
(01:25):
, how you even got started withanimals?
I mean, were you, did youalways have horses?
Were you an animal?
You know kind of like yourlittle backstory.
First, let's let's learn aboutyou a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah.
So I grew up loving animals butI never had any.
I lived in like the deep cityand I found I was pretty young
when I found my obsession withanimals, and horses in
particular.
So I found a rescue tovolunteer at that was within
driving distance and Ivolunteered there every weekend
(02:00):
and as I grew up, every time Istarted looking for jobs or
doing anything in my life, Ijust kept circling back to
animals.
So when I got my own house andmy own horse, the owner of the
rescue that I grew up at gotsick and she passed away and a
few of her horses had to comelive with me and at that point
(02:23):
we just said, okay, this is whatwe're doing and started our own
rescue.
And I was kind of one of thoselost kids who had trouble making
friends and didn't really getalong with humans and the rescue
was kind of like a light in mylife.
So I wanted to make sure thatmy rescue provided that for kids
(02:46):
too.
I wanted to make sure we had anactive kids program for really
anybody who wanted to spend timewith animals and focus on the
relationship aspect, not justthe training or riding part of
horses.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Oh for sure that's wonderful, and for you to be
able to do it now, when you'reyoung, is also wonderful.
So how old were you when youstarted going to the rescues on
the weekends?
We have similar stories, and soI really feel for you.
Did your folks have to driveyou, or you know like, how old
were you and what did they thinkof your?
You know obsession at thatpoint.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, they had to drive me about 45 minutes and
they would drop me off in themorning and pick me up at night
because I wanted to be there asmany hours as I could.
And, yeah, it was tricky.
I was about nine when I startedexploring horses and finding
places to play with horses, butI was 13 when I found the rescue
(03:45):
and finding places to play withhorses, but I was 13 when I
found the rescue and that'sreally where, like that was
where I felt I wanted to bebecause I could spend the whole
day loving on the horses andbeing with the horses.
And, you know, I got to ridesometimes, but not very often.
It was really more aboutspending time with them and
building a relationship, andthat's really what I was looking
(04:07):
for out of that situation.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Sure.
So you found early on thathorses were healing for you and
they were a help for you as youwere growing up, maybe not
connecting as well with yourpeers, things like that.
So many animal people havesimilar stories.
Animals don't judge and theylike us just the way we are, and
(04:31):
so it's pretty cool that youkind of had this intuition
already.
So tell us how.
Let's start with the rescue.
What kind of?
From what I understand, you'renot only rescuing horses, which
is great, and I've done that toothrough Forever Morgans, with
Morgan horses, you know, andthings like that you are
rescuing humans in a way.
(04:52):
I mean, actually the animalsare rescuing the humans, but
you're making it possible, andwhat a gift.
So maybe if you could tell us alittle bit how, how did the
young people or the peopleyou're working with, the
children, young people I don'tknow your age group how did that
come about?
And how did you find suitablehorses?
Did the horses?
I find horses just no, but didyou know kind of?
(05:16):
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
So as soon as you move horses into a farm, kids
start appearing.
We, we, literally we have thisvolunteer who she's been here
for four years now and I foundher hiding in the bushes beside
my barn and watching ourClydesdales in the yard and she
was just.
You could see her just dreamingof like how amazing it would be
(05:40):
to spend time with those horsesand I just like, come on over,
you can come groom them.
And she, she's been a volunteerfor four years since.
Oh my god so.
So I mean, it wasn't hard tofind kids who needed animals.
Um, it was kind of true.
It is kind of tricky findinganimals that are suitable for
our kids because we don't.
(06:02):
We don't take in animalssuitable for our kids.
We take in rescues who havemajor life issues.
You have two blind horses.
We have a neurological horse,we have one who came to us.
Well, we have several who cameto us for aggression issues.
So it's like how do I justthrow a bunch of kids in with
(06:24):
them?
Yeah, yeah, we have kids fromsix years old to 60 years old.
So we have all ages, but mostlyit's the six to 15 range, that
is, you know, they're here everyday and really obsessed, and
then they get jobs and have tobe adults.
(06:44):
Sure, sure.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
But what a wonderful gift you've given them that
relationship with the horse.
I know for myself being awkwardand just my personality being
different horses.
When I was able to finallystart working for my riding
lessons when I was 12, so Iunderstand I had a mentor, an
older lady.
It kept me out of trouble, outof depression.
(07:07):
They still keep me out ofdepression.
You know, I still have horses.
And it was like all the waythrough high school, you know,
all the way, even though I had ajob.
It's like I just kept with itand I'm still not.
I loped so I could have a horsewhen I was 19.
And we're still, 43 years later, we still married, we still
(07:31):
have horses.
So it worked out.
But that gift that you givethose young people to feel good
about themselves and the lessonsthey learn, so so say, you've
got, um, a horse.
That can you give me like astory?
Can you tell me about aparticular horse and a
particular child maybe, like howdid that work out?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
oh man, I don't even know who to choose because
they're all so special.
Um, there we have.
Let's see, we've got aneurological pony.
He's a warm blood pony cross.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Okay, so neurological .
Just so we understand means.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Somewhere in his spine the connections aren't
being made down to the rest ofhis body.
So he's quite clumsy, he fallseasily, he doesn't have great
sensation in his hind limbs andhe's very frantic all the time.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well, yeah, because his horse's line of defense is
to escape.
And if he feels he can't escape.
Naturally that would causeconcern for him.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, and he's super sweet, he loves people, so we
rescued him when he was.
He can't escape.
Naturally that would causeconcern for him.
Yeah, and he's super sweet, heloves people.
So we rescued him when he wasonly two months old, but he and
his mom were bones.
So we think that being starvedat such a developmental stage is
probably why he's soneurological and why it hasn't
changed throughout his life,because it's not changing with
(08:45):
the development of his spine.
He's 10 now, so he's reallystable in that he can live a
good quality of life, but he'llnever be able to be ridden
because he can't like carryhimself, let alone a rider Right
right.
So he's kind of stuck with usbecause I wouldn't trust sending
(09:07):
him out into the world wheresomebody might think they could
get away with riding him.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah.
And then Someone gets hurt.
A horse gets hurt, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
What's his name, this pony?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
His name is Zephyr and he is not a gentle breeze,
he is a hurricane and he's likeI always joke, he's like an ADHD
four-year-old boy.
He's just super busy, he's veryintelligent, he understands
spatial awareness better thanany horse I've ever known.
(09:38):
Like we play a game with himwhere we'll put a ball, throw it
into his stall and he has toget it out his stall door and
sometimes it'll get stuck behindsomething or like go in a weird
path and he has to figure outhow to get it out of stall door.
And he's really good at that,sure, and you're really good at
that Sure, and you're talking agood sized ball, yeah.
(10:00):
Yeah, like a jolly ball.
Yeah, not like a tennis ball.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I think it's like a little baseball, I'm just
because some of them aren'tgoing to be horse people.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Okay, yeah, a good a ball but they don't really have
that concept of how to maneuverthe ball where they want it to
go.
Yeah, it's pretty smart.
Yeah, he really is.
(10:28):
He's a very intelligent horse,but he's super hyper and really
frantic and like he can'tconcentrate for more than a
second.
And we've got this um, 13 yearold girl who is exactly the same
personality and in some ways,you know, at first I was like
these two should never worktogether because they are, you
(10:50):
know, crazy and crazy, you know,and they, they amp each other
up totally.
So there there are a lot ofdays where we're like, okay,
we're going to stop and we'regoing to breathe, and we
actually taught Zephyr to take adeep breath on cue so that he
would stop and breathe sometimes, yeah, yeah.
So it was actually a coolexercise for his.
(11:12):
They took the situation.
She's a sweet, sweet girl, butshe's very hyper, very active,
she does jujitsu, she doeshorses, she's just on the go 100
miles an hour, um, and shestruggles with, uh, mental
health issues.
Um, it's just hard to be ateenager in this world, right
(11:32):
now.
It's hard for every single oneof them, yeah yeah and um, and
where she is so hyper and soactive, I think that can be a
lot for some kids.
So she has a hard time makingfriends and Zephyr is the
perfect friend for her and wekind of took it as a learning
(11:53):
opportunity for both of them.
You have to help Zephyr learnhow to cope with his anxiety,
his stress, like learn hiscoping skills, and in doing so
she's learning her own copingskills.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
You've empowered her to help something else, someone
else you know, and by helpingsomeone else it helps her, which
builds confidence and and theability to regulate.
So they're helping each otherregulate.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
That's, that's the goal and they do it really well.
Sometimes they do work eachother up instead of bring each
other back down, but sometimeswe've also taken recently
they've been doing really wellin their training.
We always focus on, like, thecore behaviors.
You know, can you move yourbody parts away from me when I
(12:39):
ask, can you?
Can you stop and stand stillwhen I ask those safety things?
Yes, and they've just done sowell with that that recently
I've been saying let's embracewhat you two have.
You guys are the most exuberant, fun, active, playful people
and horse just just have fun,like so long as we can bring
(13:03):
ourselves back down to calm.
Why don't you go do the thingsthat you can't do with the other
horses because they're tooquiet, too laid back, too too
resigned.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So it's become a really beautiful partnership
because of that Sounds wonderfuland it sounds wonderful, so
that's a good lead-in to talkingabout.
Oh, there's my puppy.
That's better To talk aboutpositive reinforcement and
force-free animal care and theway you work with them, because,
(13:34):
as you know, I train animalactors and of course it has to
be very fun, I mean becausethat's the animal's idea.
You know, we can't make a cat doanything unless he wants to you
know, so I understand that anda lot of my audience is
extremely interested in positivereinforcement and of course
that's a very broad term.
So it's like let's not get intothe science of it.
There's four quadrants.
(13:55):
People can learn that, becauseotherwise they're going to argue
with me and go like you're noteven talking about the right
thing.
So let's just be very generalabout it.
So I'm curious when you'rebuilding this relationship with
these horses that have come withtheir own traumas and their own
backgrounds and I imagine yougive them some time to
decompress and you move at theirpace, you're not going to push
anybody into anything.
Same thing with a child or ayoung person that needs help.
(14:17):
You're not going to go what'swrong with you, you know.
You might see what's happeningto you, but not what's wrong
with you, you know.
And so the same thing with ahorse or anything else.
So how does that work, theforce-free animal care and
training?
And are you using treats?
Because there's a bigcontroversy about how to use
treats properly.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
You know things like that.
So, yeah, let's just kind ofstart like what does that look
like?
So, yes, we use treats, we useprimarily, we use hay pellets,
just because we can kind of beloose and wild with them because
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
So for our audience it'd be like a compressed
alfalfa or compressed Timothyhay.
It's a small little pellet soyou're not feeding giant
handfuls, getting too much forthe horse or too sugary, too
sweet for horses that haveproblems with that.
It's just something they desireand like, but it's not.
It's the difference between aregular dog treat piece of steak
versus a piece of steak.
It's just something that youcan continually do without
(15:11):
causing any dietary problem forthe horse but still motivating
Exactly problem for the horse,but still motivating, right?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yep, Because, like, if a 1,000 pound horse eats 15
to 20 pounds of hay a day, well,one or two pounds of hay
pellets is not going to make abig impact on their diet every
day.
So especially, I think thatit's really cool when people
come to our program and they seewe've got kids throwing food at
horses every which way and ourhorses are better behaved than
(15:40):
most you'd ever see in the worldbecause they understand the
game, they understand how towork for the food, how to work
with the kids and they theyunderstand the process of it all
.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
so we don't have issues with horses being pushy
or mugging the person orwhatever, because they know that
if I wait and do you know, do Aor B or whatever, I will be
rewarded.
So what's the cue Like?
Do they turn their head away alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Or how do you tell them that you know you can't mug
me so generally, if we have ahorse who's ready to go, the
first thing we teach them isstand still face forward, and
that I kind of equate to like adog's sit stay.
Yes, can you just stand hereand not do anything for a minute
(16:26):
?
While I move around you, whileI brush you, while I get the
stuff ready, you just stand hereand chill and not be in my
space.
And once they have that wellestablished where I can really
move comfortably around them,then we generally teach them to
touch target.
And because with dogs we tendto use a lot of food luring, but
with horses we need that extraspace between us and them.
(16:50):
And I find that horses, if youlure them directly with food,
they tend to get focused on thefood and they're not really
thinking about what behavior gotthe food.
The behavior is chase the food.
So using a target really helpsthem.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Can you explain for our audience what you mean by a
target?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
then oh, yeah, a target is any object that they
touch with their nose to get aclick and a treat, and generally
I use we have these dollarstore fluffy dusters that are
extendable, so you can make itreally small, like a Swiffer
sort of.
Yeah, it's like a Swiffer.
(17:32):
Yeah, and you can make it smalland it just looks like a fluffy
ball and you can make it long,so it's on like a fluffy ball
and you can make it long, soit's on a stick to give you some
space, Yep exactly, so you canlead the horse.
With that you could.
We do a lot of agility with thekids and the horses.
So at first they're literallyjust following a target over an
(18:01):
obstacle or around a barrel orsomething like that, and then
over time we fade out the targetand we get all the behaviors on
cue.
But it's a nice, easy way forkids to work safely with the
horses, even doing fun activethings like going over a jump.
But the horse is just followinga target.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
That's got to be thrilling for a young person if
they've been working with thehorse and the horse wants to
play and the horse wants to bewith them.
It's got to be thrillingBecause you know we can subject
horses to.
You know, I'm going to ride you, I'm going to do this, I'm
going to do that.
It's all the human's agenda,right.
But when you're doing sort oflike liberty, we would train a
dog for a movie or something,you know what I mean, like
(18:36):
positive animal training, uh,it's gotta be just a blast.
I mean, the horse feels good,kid feels good.
You know, everybody's winninghere.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, it really is.
Um, I think some kids, theythey have a hard time with the
social aspect of it because alltheir friends are going to
regular riding barns and theyare doing something so different
, um, and it's hard to you know.
Oh, we ride, but our focus issending them from one target to
(19:04):
another and their friend is like, well, I just want a ribbon at
a show, and that can be reallyhard, um, but we try to make it
fun for them and I think thatmost of our kids are here for
the connection and therelationship and so, even if
they don't get the bigcompetitions or showing off in
front of their friends, theyreally see the benefit that
(19:26):
they're building a relationshipwith their horse and it's the
horse has a lot more choice andcontrol over their situation.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
So let's talk about your book.
Does your book explain sort ofthe techniques that you were
just talking about?
Your book is called equineempowerment a guide to positive
reinforcement training yep, ourbook, um it.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
We really go heavy into the sciences.
We talk about the threesciences.
I think a lot of people focusjust on behavioral science.
Um, which is important, that'show we're modifying their
behavior.
But we also talk a lot aboutethology of the horse.
So ethology is really sorry,that's my donkey braying really
(20:07):
loud.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I love it Let him in, let him in.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I know I don't know what he's going on about, but
ethology is kind of the study ofwho horses are in nature and
how they behave, how theyinteract and what their needs
are, and understanding ethologyis really important to meeting
their needs in domestication.
(20:32):
If we don't understand howhorses would live if they had
free choice, we don't know howto make their life appropriate
in domestication.
And then the third science thatI go into pretty heavily is
neuroscience of emotions.
I'm kind of a neuroscience geek, so I really love to understand
(20:52):
how emotions work, how theyinfluence ourselves and our body
and our behaviors, and how wecan help build healthier mental
health for everyone.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Young people must see pretty easily, pretty quickly,
that if they come upset, thehorse can feel that, but they
can.
What I've learned is if I'mupset or whatever, I can say to
the horse I'm upset and I've hada bad day, instead of trying to
cover it up and pretend I'msomething I'm not, because the
horse is going to know that I'mcovering up.
Or if I'm afraid, I can say youknow, I'm a little afraid, I
(21:26):
need to take a breath, you knowI need to whatever, as opposed
to bullying through, becausewe're always taught as horse
people, you know, just get backon.
You know what I mean.
And the horse goes wait, youremotions aren't matching your
body.
I'm getting two differentsignals and that's more
upsetting for a horse than if Ihad just flat out said I'm a
little afraid, I'm going to takea pause, I'm going to, we're
just going to breathe through.
You know, I'm going to figurethis out together.
(21:47):
We'll figure this out.
Do you find your young peoplepick up on that?
Like, learn that pretty easily.
Like, be authentic withthemselves.
It's better for the horse andthen work on regulating.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I think so.
It's interesting because wehave kids that have come from
traditional programs and movedhere and they come with that
very masked defense.
Yeah, they're very focused on Ihave to look tough, I have to
look brave, and you know you'lltell them to do something and
you'll see them.
You know, super nervous, liketiptoeing around the horses, and
(22:22):
then you're like just stop, youdon't have to do, you don't
have to go that far, you canslow down you, we can break this
into steps for you and um.
But then the kids that havegrown up with only this, they've
seen how we model it with thehorses.
You know, if a horse starts toamp up, we immediately break
down the criteria, we make itinto small steps, we focus on
(22:47):
relaxation and just the otherday we have a young Mustang that
we're training how to ride.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, challenge.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
He came to us because he flunked out of a Mustang
training program and he was tooaggressive for them even to
begin handling, so he was neverhandled.
When we got him and he wasquite aggressive.
He turned his fear into angervery quickly and he was young
(23:16):
and he had to fight for all ofhis resources, all the.
He was put into a holding penwith all these adult stallions
and he was only a yearling.
Oh, so he he had to fight foranything he wanted, um, so he
was extreme resource guarder.
He was very aggressive.
The first year we had him, umit was.
(23:36):
It was a long year of a lot ofjust generous, just conditioning
, classically conditioninghumans as not a bad thing we're
not here to take your food.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
It's really good you say that, because most people
will not take the time it takesto get a horse to trust his
environment and trust you knowwhat's happening around him,
especially one that's off therange.
You know, with no good humanexperiences and been around, you
know horses that were too hardon him.
So cause most people are like Igot a new horse and I'm going
(24:09):
to ride him two days from nowand expect him to like, be not
upset at all about beinguprooted from his friends,
uprooted from a because theylove routine, being uprooted
from a routine Even though he'sa calm horse, maybe the dangers
of a new place he hasn't figuredout.
Is that dangerous?
Is that not dangerous?
Because that's his wiring toworry about things.
They don't give him the benefitof the doubt.
(24:29):
And a horse that's just lettinga horse be a horse and that
continually showing up, showingup as a positive thing, with no
expectations.
I'm not going to make you doanything, I'm just going to.
I'm just going to let you be ahorse.
What a healing time for thehorse.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
It took him a long time it did, and a lot longer
than most of our horses.
Um, and honestly, even after wekind of got him over the hump
of immediately seeing a humanand becoming angry and
frustrated and resource guardingand defensive, we could start
training behaviors, but it was avery slow process.
(25:06):
So it's been about three yearsbefore.
Now we feel like, okay, he'slike a normal horse now.
You know, you can put a halteron him, you can lead him
somewhere, you can do agility.
And there's still You're stillwatching his emotional level to
make sure he's not spiking, buthe's mostly normal.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, so this is Marigold.
Marigold, a cat just walkedinto frame.
For those of you that are onlylistening we had a donkey named
Marigold.
Okay, there you go, there yougo.
You don't want to see that.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
So we had one of our kids' students she's 12, and she
has been the one who's beenworking with him and training
him how to ride and a coupledays ago she was really feeling
nervous about riding and shedidn't want to tell me and she
(26:01):
told one of the other kids.
One of the other kids told me,like she's just not into it
today, she's kind of nervous,and I pulled her aside and I
told her if you have a reasonwhy today you're not comfortable
riding, don't get on.
You're right.
You're reading this situation.
You're reading the horse infront of you.
You're reading yourself in themoment.
(26:22):
If I'm feeling uncomfortabletoday, I'm not in the right
mindset to get on a horse, thatI'm that's going to feel that
and be made more nervous by that.
And we made it a really bigdeal for her to to be super
honest about our emotions andthat she's advocating for her
horse's needs.
That she's advocating for herneeds.
(26:42):
And we went.
We did something really funwith him instead and it was a
good day.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Everybody was happy in the end.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah, why push through, only to have something
bad inevitably happen, becausethat's when it's going to happen
.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Let's give that.
You know, didn't I learn thatlesson the hard way?
I hear you.
I hear you, yeah, okay, let'ssee, I'm going to look at my
notes here.
Okay, so we talked about yourbook, positive Reinforcement,
running the Rescue.
Okay, so how do the youngpeople find you?
Is this like something formal?
(27:18):
Is there like?
I mean, how do they?
I know it's a lot of word, I'mguessing a lot of word of mouth,
but do you work with you knowcounty services?
Do you work with you knowschools?
I mean, how do they find you?
And then did you have to gothrough particular?
You know vetting to be workingwith young people.
Do you have volunteers that youhave to like, like in 4-H, for
(27:40):
instance?
Everyone goes through abackground check.
You know, I'm asking thisbecause I just I love the
concept of your program and I'mwondering how a person could
duplicate it other places,because there's certainly a need
.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, so there's really not any formality to how
to run a program like this.
Unfortunately, because we'renot officially a therapeutic
riding program or therapeutichorsemanship program, um, but I
did take the time to getcertified as a path
(28:09):
international therapeutic ridinginstructor Um, and that's all
very traditional.
It's not positive reinforcement, it's not um, are they?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
traditionally when uh like special needs, um, uh, you
know, special not so much themethod, much mental health
sometimes, but more physical,it's more, yeah, physical
adaptations Sometimes it'sautism or you know.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
It's really focused on teaching the student how to
ride a horse around, whatevertheir needs might be.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
So it's different might be.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
So it's different.
Yeah, it's a different type ofprogram, but I felt it was
important for me to have thatbackground just so that I could,
you know, have a broader scopeof what the needs might be and
and understand how to adaptthings where we might need some
adaptations.
We do have a lot of students onthe autism spectrum.
We do have a lot of studentswith mental health disorders and
(29:05):
learning my personal boundaries.
I worked a lot with counselorsand social workers to learn
where do I?
put my walls up, Because it ishard yeah because you can't.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
You know, if love could fix them, they'd all be
cured, and it just doesn't workquite that way.
You know, obviously you'redoing what you can and sharing
in the way you can, and so I'msure they are, and everybody
around them.
We're all grateful for peoplelike you, because young people,
especially young people, goingthrough stuff, they are not
always easy and sometimes youknow they can lash out.
There can be issues, you knowthey can lash out.
(29:45):
There can be issues, you know,and it's like they're hurting
somehow, just like a horse, andit's like not personal.
Let's, let's figure out how wecan help.
So you know, good on you andyou.
Do you have a team, or is itjust you, or how does that work?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
um, so it is just me, um, but we've been growing in
the last few years and now wehave got a few more adults in
our program as volunteers andthey're helping a lot with the
business side of things, so thatit's a little bit less intense
for me, because I've been tryingto wear every hat of this
(30:16):
program.
We're a nonprofit and we have awebsite, we have an educational
program, we have the kidsprogram and the rescue aspect of
the program.
So it's a lot like I had tolearn how to make a website.
I don't know how to do that,you're very good at social media
.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
That's how I found you.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I've been trying.
I'm not really.
The kids taught me that.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
You put out articles on social media and that's how I
found you, because I wouldn'thave found you otherwise, and so
that's cool.
Um, so we will be putting likelinks to your, to your um,
non-profit and you know all thatstuff.
But how can people help um nowlocally?
Great, they can get in touchwith you.
So where are you located?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
so we're in in Maine, york Maine, so it's like right
over the border of New Hampshire, all right.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Beautiful country, I'm sure, and for those of us
that can't physically come, theyjust direct them to your
website and there's ways thatthey can help or they can learn
more, things like that, ofcourse.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, our website.
Donations are always welcome.
We are run completely on publicdonations.
So we have 13 equines and asheep and lots of cats that are
all fed by public donations, sowe really appreciate that.
Also, anything just spreadingthe word about positive
reinforcement A big part of ourprogram.
(31:39):
We can only hold about 13equines.
That's not very many in thegrand scheme of things.
So a big part of our program istrying to make the world better
so that we don't need to rescueas many so education, so
spreading the education is hugefor us.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Oh that's.
That's really a great program.
Lots of, lots of parts to it.
Okay, you have kind of a lovelyquote here.
Maybe we can talk about this.
You said we live in a world ofdisposable things.
You are not one of them.
You are irreplaceable.
One of a kind there will neverbe another.
You, you're not disposable, anddon't let anyone tell you
(32:18):
otherwise.
I love that because I'm sure somany young people, and older
people too, feel they'reworthless, feel that they're
just not any good to anybody.
With the young people that I'veworked with, that depression
and low self-esteem and feelinglike they can't contribute and
nobody wants them it'sdevastating.
How have you found that beingaround the horses helps build
(32:45):
confidence and that can helpimprove that?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Well, I think that that's where our program really
stands out above other programs,because our program is the
place that disposable horses go.
Horses, by nature, are treateddisposably, so if they are
useful to humans they'll begiven a good life, but the
minute they're not able to beused, they're, they're thrown
(33:10):
out, um, even if it's temporary,um, I think, more so than any
other pet animal.
Um, because they're kind oftrapped between livestock pets
and sports equipment and it'snot cheap to take care of a
horse, I mean it sure isn't.
So if you have one horse and youwant to ride, sometimes that
(33:34):
means that you have to get ridof a horse so that you can get a
rideable horse, and that isreally unfortunate and I really
feel like that's not a lessonthat our kids should be learning
.
Um, I mean, we wouldn't wantthem to do that to grandma when
grandma can't play anymore.
We should really be teachingour kids that, you know, if not
(33:56):
a lifetime commitment if youcan't promise a lifetime, at
least promise that you're goingto make sure that they go
somewhere safe and that they'regoing to be cared for for their
lifetime too.
So I think, in seeing the waythat we treasure each horse as
an individual is really kind ofpoints back to the kids too.
(34:21):
You know, we have blind horseswho couldn't be ridden, we have
animals with trauma.
We have horses that have worked.
Um, we have one who worked at alarge theme park in florida,
whose name I'm not allowed tosay, and uh, he, you know he was
.
He worked really.
(34:42):
He did a great job in his lifeand when he couldn't work
anymore, he needed to find ahome to go to and that's where
we came in and he is justtreasured here.
He's like everybody's favorite.
So I think for people to seethat second chances are
available, that you know, nomatter what you've been through,
(35:03):
second chances are available.
That you know, no matter whatyou've been through, no matter
what your disability might be orwhat your differences are,
there's a place in the world foryou and you'll be loved for for
that you know.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, absolutely that's.
That's great.
Okay, now it's time from thequestions which we took from Tim
Ferriss's excellent book.
What book would you recommendand why?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I think Plenty and Life is Free from Kathy Stout
that one to me.
You know I think we've read allthe science books about
positive reinforcement.
But Plenty and Life is Free isreally focused on.
It doesn't have to be acontingency, it doesn't have to
(35:50):
be a deal, an arrangement.
We can just love each other andlove and food we should use
that.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
And good stuff I love you right now, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, it's free.
You can give love for free andit doesn't cost you anything and
it doesn't hurt anyone.
So just share it, especiallywith our animals and our kids.
Um, just why you don't have toput everything on life, on
contingency, you don't have tomake everything a deal.
(36:22):
You know, and I think, I thinkthat for me, that book made a
big impact on me, and the titleof the book again Plenty and
Life is Free.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
And who wrote it?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
I think Kathy Stow.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Okay, okay, well, good, all right.
What is the most valuable thingthat you put your time into?
That has changed the course ofyour life?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
that you put your time into.
That has changed the course ofyour life.
Probably the rescue that I grewup at.
I was trying to think if therewas anything different, but it
really was that I grew up atthat rescue and it gave me my
mindset of providing a safeplace for horses, especially
horses at their end of life whohave been kind of let down by
their humans, to give them aplace where they can get what
(37:08):
they deserve a good end of life.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
So that's great, that's good.
In the last five years, whatnew belief, behavior or habit
has most improved your life?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
that's tricky.
Um, let's see, I think beliefis um.
Originally, I was very focusedon behavioral science and then I
kind of started to realize thatall these sciences, all these
(37:49):
different, um ways of looking atanimals, are all looking at the
same picture and they're notagainst each other, they're
complementary to each other.
So it's this idea that, um, youknow, a lot of people are like
well, it's strict behaviorism orstrict emotional, like
relationship building, and butthere's, there's a heavy balance
(38:12):
to all of it and you can find,I feel, like the truth is always
in the middle.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
That is so true.
That is so true.
She's sitting on my question soI have to move the cat.
Okay, what inspires andmotivates you?
Speaker 2 (38:30):
to do what you do and what is your true purpose in
the world?
The kids and the horses,obviously, and I think the fact
that the need exists motivatesme to do it.
I think that I needed it somuch as a kid growing up, I
needed animals in my life.
(38:51):
I needed horses, and theyhelped me survive, they helped
me overcome my growth and theyhelped me develop into a person
I'm proud to be, so I want thatfor every other kid that's in
that same situation.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Yeah, it's a good thing.
It's a good thing and you'redoing it.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I'm trying some days, some days easier than most.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
The last question what did you want to be as a
child, and how close did you getto that dream?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I absolutely wanted to be a horse rescuer.
I had all different ideas ofwhat that would look like, but I
knew that.
I think when I worked in that Iworked as a carriage driver in
the city because that was theonly job that had horses in the
city and that's when I narrowedit down to.
I want to rescue draft horsesthat have been working, but,
(39:50):
yeah, yeah, I always wanted tobe a horse rescuer.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Well, and you are.
That's that's pretty great.
Okay, so let's just recap.
You can give out the name ofyour website to we're going to
add this to the show notes, butwhere can they?
Where can A we find your book Bwhere can we, you know, like go
ahead and say your website, howto find you?
You know, if you're on socialmedia, that sort of thing, kind
of the rundown, so that peoplecan find you and learn more
(40:14):
about what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, we are Empowered Equines, and we're
Empowered Equines on everysocial media, so facebook,
instagram, tiktok, we're allempowered equines and um, our
website is empoweredequinescomand our book is equine
empowerment and I think that'severything.
Okay.
Where do we find the book?
(40:36):
Um, you can find the book onany large bookseller, so like
amazon or bookscom, anythinglike that.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Writing a book is a huge endeavor.
I mean, that's quite anaccomplishment just right off
the bat.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
That is something, and so that it took me like five
years, but I'm actually.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
I am almost done and almost published a kid's book
series, so it's for kids, butadults will appreciate it too,
because it just simplifies itall there's so little out there
for because I have grandchildrennow that are going to be riding
you know, my horses and hangingout with me a lot with the
horses.
That's my goal.
I'm going to get a rider out ofone of them, but anyway, they
(41:16):
all love animals.
I try to explain what is thishorse feeling, what is this ear
saying, what you know, but tohave a children's book that can
explain it better, cause youknow they're always going to
learn better from someonebesides their own relative.
It's just the nature of it, youknow a guide.
A guide would be extremelyhelpful, something that they can
read and understand on theirown.
I mean well done you.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
So it's almost, it's almost ready, that's great,
that's great, okay.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Well, I tell you, jessica, this has been really
enlightening and motivatingbecause we're building the
indoor arena, we're in Wisconsin, so the same kind of winters,
it's cold, windy, wet, muddy,everything.
The culmination of a what 30,40-year dream to build this
arena.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I was going to say that's my dream too.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
And then it has a photo studio attached, which
means I can keep doing my workand training, training other
animals.
The cat is pulling on my headthat's my dream too.
And we have taken in youngpeople in the past that actually
came and lived with us and werelike daughters to us.
So we're we're not into thatanymore, so much now that we're
(42:24):
older.
But I know the healing power ofanimals and so I may be
bothering you in the future like, okay, how did you do that?
How did you?
do that, I've got rescue horseshere, that you know, and the
sheep, which is a whole nothershow, because how sheep can work
as therapy animals is anotherthing.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Sheep are amazing.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yeah, there's just so much to learn, but I feel like
if we build it, they will comeand um cause I.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
I just have to open that door and I and I think I
think we put a lot of focus onlike is this horse going to be
okay for kids?
Honestly, every horse is okayfor kids.
You might have to use protectedcontact, you might have to
really slow down the trainingwith the kids, but kids will
adapt to the horse in front ofthem.
We have a completely blindhorse who you couldn't touch at
(43:11):
all.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
No, there's no where it's coming from she was
terrified of humans terrified.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
And it was a 12-year-old who built the first
relationship with her, becauseshe was small, she was soft, she
read her body language and shetook the time to develop a
relationship.
So yeah, I think children aremuch more intuitive.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Children are much more intuitive with their
animals and much more willing totalk to them.
You know to like literally talkto them with a conversation to
be accepting.
You know they're not demandingthat this horse be or perform,
or you know much more open andhonest in a way.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, she had no schedule in her mind, like for
me.
I'm like, okay, we have to gether wearing a halter, we have to
get her doing this, and she'slike, I just want to hang with
her.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
That's what she needs .
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Well, Jessica, thank you so much for taking the time
to share what you've been doingand keep it up, I mean good on
you, I'm thrilled, I'm thrilledfor you.
Thanks for taking the time.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Thank you so much.
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien andyou're listening to the
Empathetic Trainer Podcast.
Today's guest is JessicaGonzalez.
She's a lifetime horse rescuerand author of Equine Empowerment
(00:36):
a Guide to PositiveReinforcement Training.
She runs Empowered EquinesRescue and Empowered Equestrians
Educational Program.
Welcome to the podcast, jessica.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
So those of you who are watching us on YouTube
there's a cat that is likereally stealing the show.
So before we even get started,we better introduce the cat.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
This is Night Fury.
He's named after the dragonfrom how to Train your Dragon,
and he's very, very friendly.
A little too friendly.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
That's no harm in that we like that, so now we all
know his name.
So, everyone, you don't have toworry about this sweet cat
coming in and out.
Well, I found you on Facebook,which is where I find a lot of
my horse people and you're doinga lot of interesting stuff.
And now that I see you face toface I'm like, wow, you're young
, which is great.
So why don't you just give us alittle introduction about, like
(01:25):
, how you even got started withanimals?
I mean, were you, did youalways have horses?
Were you an animal?
You know kind of like yourlittle backstory.
First, let's let's learn aboutyou a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah.
So I grew up loving animals butI never had any.
I lived in like the deep cityand I found I was pretty young
when I found my obsession withanimals, and horses in
particular.
So I found a rescue tovolunteer at that was within
driving distance and Ivolunteered there every weekend
(02:00):
and as I grew up, every time Istarted looking for jobs or
doing anything in my life, Ijust kept circling back to
animals.
So when I got my own house andmy own horse, the owner of the
rescue that I grew up at gotsick and she passed away and a
few of her horses had to comelive with me and at that point
(02:23):
we just said, okay, this is whatwe're doing and started our own
rescue.
And I was kind of one of thoselost kids who had trouble making
friends and didn't really getalong with humans and the rescue
was kind of like a light in mylife.
So I wanted to make sure thatmy rescue provided that for kids
(02:46):
too.
I wanted to make sure we had anactive kids program for really
anybody who wanted to spend timewith animals and focus on the
relationship aspect, not justthe training or riding part of
horses.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Oh for sure that's wonderful, and for you to be
able to do it now, when you'reyoung, is also wonderful.
So how old were you when youstarted going to the rescues on
the weekends?
We have similar stories, and soI really feel for you.
Did your folks have to driveyou, or you know like, how old
were you and what did they thinkof your?
You know obsession at thatpoint.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, they had to drive me about 45 minutes and
they would drop me off in themorning and pick me up at night
because I wanted to be there asmany hours as I could.
And, yeah, it was tricky.
I was about nine when I startedexploring horses and finding
places to play with horses, butI was 13 when I found the rescue
(03:45):
and finding places to play withhorses, but I was 13 when I
found the rescue and that'sreally where, like that was
where I felt I wanted to bebecause I could spend the whole
day loving on the horses andbeing with the horses.
And, you know, I got to ridesometimes, but not very often.
It was really more aboutspending time with them and
building a relationship, andthat's really what I was looking
(04:07):
for out of that situation.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Sure.
So you found early on thathorses were healing for you and
they were a help for you as youwere growing up, maybe not
connecting as well with yourpeers, things like that.
So many animal people havesimilar stories.
Animals don't judge and theylike us just the way we are, and
(04:31):
so it's pretty cool that youkind of had this intuition
already.
So tell us how.
Let's start with the rescue.
What kind of?
From what I understand, you'renot only rescuing horses, which
is great, and I've done that toothrough Forever Morgans, with
Morgan horses, you know, andthings like that you are
rescuing humans in a way.
(04:52):
I mean, actually the animalsare rescuing the humans, but
you're making it possible, andwhat a gift.
So maybe if you could tell us alittle bit how, how did the
young people or the peopleyou're working with, the
children, young people I don'tknow your age group how did that
come about?
And how did you find suitablehorses?
Did the horses?
I find horses just no, but didyou know kind of?
(05:16):
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
So as soon as you move horses into a farm, kids
start appearing.
We, we, literally we have thisvolunteer who she's been here
for four years now and I foundher hiding in the bushes beside
my barn and watching ourClydesdales in the yard and she
was just.
You could see her just dreamingof like how amazing it would be
(05:40):
to spend time with those horsesand I just like, come on over,
you can come groom them.
And she, she's been a volunteerfor four years since.
Oh my god so.
So I mean, it wasn't hard tofind kids who needed animals.
Um, it was kind of true.
It is kind of tricky findinganimals that are suitable for
our kids because we don't.
(06:02):
We don't take in animalssuitable for our kids.
We take in rescues who havemajor life issues.
You have two blind horses.
We have a neurological horse,we have one who came to us.
Well, we have several who cameto us for aggression issues.
So it's like how do I justthrow a bunch of kids in with
(06:24):
them?
Yeah, yeah, we have kids fromsix years old to 60 years old.
So we have all ages, but mostlyit's the six to 15 range, that
is, you know, they're here everyday and really obsessed, and
then they get jobs and have tobe adults.
(06:44):
Sure, sure.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
But what a wonderful gift you've given them that
relationship with the horse.
I know for myself being awkwardand just my personality being
different horses.
When I was able to finallystart working for my riding
lessons when I was 12, so Iunderstand I had a mentor, an
older lady.
It kept me out of trouble, outof depression.
(07:07):
They still keep me out ofdepression.
You know, I still have horses.
And it was like all the waythrough high school, you know,
all the way, even though I had ajob.
It's like I just kept with itand I'm still not.
I loped so I could have a horsewhen I was 19.
And we're still, 43 years later, we still married, we still
(07:31):
have horses.
So it worked out.
But that gift that you givethose young people to feel good
about themselves and the lessonsthey learn, so so say, you've
got, um, a horse.
That can you give me like astory?
Can you tell me about aparticular horse and a
particular child maybe, like howdid that work out?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
oh man, I don't even know who to choose because
they're all so special.
Um, there we have.
Let's see, we've got aneurological pony.
He's a warm blood pony cross.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Okay, so neurological .
Just so we understand means.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Somewhere in his spine the connections aren't
being made down to the rest ofhis body.
So he's quite clumsy, he fallseasily, he doesn't have great
sensation in his hind limbs andhe's very frantic all the time.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well, yeah, because his horse's line of defense is
to escape.
And if he feels he can't escape.
Naturally that would causeconcern for him.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, and he's super sweet, he loves people, so we
rescued him when he was.
He can't escape.
Naturally that would causeconcern for him.
Yeah, and he's super sweet, heloves people.
So we rescued him when he wasonly two months old, but he and
his mom were bones.
So we think that being starvedat such a developmental stage is
probably why he's soneurological and why it hasn't
changed throughout his life,because it's not changing with
(08:45):
the development of his spine.
He's 10 now, so he's reallystable in that he can live a
good quality of life, but he'llnever be able to be ridden
because he can't like carryhimself, let alone a rider Right
right.
So he's kind of stuck with usbecause I wouldn't trust sending
(09:07):
him out into the world wheresomebody might think they could
get away with riding him.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah.
And then Someone gets hurt.
A horse gets hurt, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
What's his name, this pony?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
His name is Zephyr and he is not a gentle breeze,
he is a hurricane and he's likeI always joke, he's like an ADHD
four-year-old boy.
He's just super busy, he's veryintelligent, he understands
spatial awareness better thanany horse I've ever known.
(09:38):
Like we play a game with himwhere we'll put a ball, throw it
into his stall and he has toget it out his stall door and
sometimes it'll get stuck behindsomething or like go in a weird
path and he has to figure outhow to get it out of stall door.
And he's really good at that,sure, and you're really good at
that Sure, and you're talking agood sized ball, yeah.
(10:00):
Yeah, like a jolly ball.
Yeah, not like a tennis ball.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I think it's like a little baseball, I'm just
because some of them aren'tgoing to be horse people.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Okay, yeah, a good a ball but they don't really have
that concept of how to maneuverthe ball where they want it to
go.
Yeah, it's pretty smart.
Yeah, he really is.
(10:28):
He's a very intelligent horse,but he's super hyper and really
frantic and like he can'tconcentrate for more than a
second.
And we've got this um, 13 yearold girl who is exactly the same
personality and in some ways,you know, at first I was like
these two should never worktogether because they are, you
(10:50):
know, crazy and crazy, you know,and they, they amp each other
up totally.
So there there are a lot ofdays where we're like, okay,
we're going to stop and we'regoing to breathe, and we
actually taught Zephyr to take adeep breath on cue so that he
would stop and breathe sometimes, yeah, yeah.
So it was actually a coolexercise for his.
(11:12):
They took the situation.
She's a sweet, sweet girl, butshe's very hyper, very active,
she does jujitsu, she doeshorses, she's just on the go 100
miles an hour, um, and shestruggles with, uh, mental
health issues.
Um, it's just hard to be ateenager in this world, right
(11:32):
now.
It's hard for every single oneof them, yeah yeah and um, and
where she is so hyper and soactive, I think that can be a
lot for some kids.
So she has a hard time makingfriends and Zephyr is the
perfect friend for her and wekind of took it as a learning
(11:53):
opportunity for both of them.
You have to help Zephyr learnhow to cope with his anxiety,
his stress, like learn hiscoping skills, and in doing so
she's learning her own copingskills.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
You've empowered her to help something else, someone
else you know, and by helpingsomeone else it helps her, which
builds confidence and and theability to regulate.
So they're helping each otherregulate.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
That's, that's the goal and they do it really well.
Sometimes they do work eachother up instead of bring each
other back down, but sometimeswe've also taken recently
they've been doing really wellin their training.
We always focus on, like, thecore behaviors.
You know, can you move yourbody parts away from me when I
(12:39):
ask, can you?
Can you stop and stand stillwhen I ask those safety things?
Yes, and they've just done sowell with that that recently
I've been saying let's embracewhat you two have.
You guys are the most exuberant, fun, active, playful people
and horse just just have fun,like so long as we can bring
(13:03):
ourselves back down to calm.
Why don't you go do the thingsthat you can't do with the other
horses because they're tooquiet, too laid back, too too
resigned.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So it's become a really beautiful partnership
because of that Sounds wonderfuland it sounds wonderful, so
that's a good lead-in to talkingabout.
Oh, there's my puppy.
That's better To talk aboutpositive reinforcement and
force-free animal care and theway you work with them, because,
(13:34):
as you know, I train animalactors and of course it has to
be very fun, I mean becausethat's the animal's idea.
You know, we can't make a cat doanything unless he wants to you
know, so I understand that anda lot of my audience is
extremely interested in positivereinforcement and of course
that's a very broad term.
So it's like let's not get intothe science of it.
There's four quadrants.
(13:55):
People can learn that, becauseotherwise they're going to argue
with me and go like you're noteven talking about the right
thing.
So let's just be very generalabout it.
So I'm curious when you'rebuilding this relationship with
these horses that have come withtheir own traumas and their own
backgrounds and I imagine yougive them some time to
decompress and you move at theirpace, you're not going to push
anybody into anything.
Same thing with a child or ayoung person that needs help.
(14:17):
You're not going to go what'swrong with you, you know.
You might see what's happeningto you, but not what's wrong
with you, you know.
And so the same thing with ahorse or anything else.
So how does that work, theforce-free animal care and
training?
And are you using treats?
Because there's a bigcontroversy about how to use
treats properly.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
You know things like that.
So, yeah, let's just kind ofstart like what does that look
like?
So, yes, we use treats, we useprimarily, we use hay pellets,
just because we can kind of beloose and wild with them because
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
So for our audience it'd be like a compressed
alfalfa or compressed Timothyhay.
It's a small little pellet soyou're not feeding giant
handfuls, getting too much forthe horse or too sugary, too
sweet for horses that haveproblems with that.
It's just something they desireand like, but it's not.
It's the difference between aregular dog treat piece of steak
versus a piece of steak.
It's just something that youcan continually do without
(15:11):
causing any dietary problem forthe horse but still motivating
Exactly problem for the horse,but still motivating, right?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yep, Because, like, if a 1,000 pound horse eats 15
to 20 pounds of hay a day, well,one or two pounds of hay
pellets is not going to make abig impact on their diet every
day.
So especially, I think thatit's really cool when people
come to our program and they seewe've got kids throwing food at
horses every which way and ourhorses are better behaved than
(15:40):
most you'd ever see in the worldbecause they understand the
game, they understand how towork for the food, how to work
with the kids and they theyunderstand the process of it all
.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
so we don't have issues with horses being pushy
or mugging the person orwhatever, because they know that
if I wait and do you know, do Aor B or whatever, I will be
rewarded.
So what's the cue Like?
Do they turn their head away alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Or how do you tell them that you know you can't mug
me so generally, if we have ahorse who's ready to go, the
first thing we teach them isstand still face forward, and
that I kind of equate to like adog's sit stay.
Yes, can you just stand hereand not do anything for a minute
(16:26):
?
While I move around you, whileI brush you, while I get the
stuff ready, you just stand hereand chill and not be in my
space.
And once they have that wellestablished where I can really
move comfortably around them,then we generally teach them to
touch target.
And because with dogs we tendto use a lot of food luring, but
with horses we need that extraspace between us and them.
(16:50):
And I find that horses, if youlure them directly with food,
they tend to get focused on thefood and they're not really
thinking about what behavior gotthe food.
The behavior is chase the food.
So using a target really helpsthem.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Can you explain for our audience what you mean by a
target?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
then oh, yeah, a target is any object that they
touch with their nose to get aclick and a treat, and generally
I use we have these dollarstore fluffy dusters that are
extendable, so you can make itreally small, like a Swiffer
sort of.
Yeah, it's like a Swiffer.
(17:32):
Yeah, and you can make it smalland it just looks like a fluffy
ball and you can make it long,so it's on like a fluffy ball
and you can make it long, soit's on a stick to give you some
space, Yep exactly, so you canlead the horse.
With that you could.
We do a lot of agility with thekids and the horses.
So at first they're literallyjust following a target over an
(18:01):
obstacle or around a barrel orsomething like that, and then
over time we fade out the targetand we get all the behaviors on
cue.
But it's a nice, easy way forkids to work safely with the
horses, even doing fun activethings like going over a jump.
But the horse is just followinga target.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
That's got to be thrilling for a young person if
they've been working with thehorse and the horse wants to
play and the horse wants to bewith them.
It's got to be thrillingBecause you know we can subject
horses to.
You know, I'm going to ride you, I'm going to do this, I'm
going to do that.
It's all the human's agenda,right.
But when you're doing sort oflike liberty, we would train a
dog for a movie or something,you know what I mean, like
(18:36):
positive animal training, uh,it's gotta be just a blast.
I mean, the horse feels good,kid feels good.
You know, everybody's winninghere.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, it really is.
Um, I think some kids, theythey have a hard time with the
social aspect of it because alltheir friends are going to
regular riding barns and theyare doing something so different
, um, and it's hard to you know.
Oh, we ride, but our focus issending them from one target to
(19:04):
another and their friend is like, well, I just want a ribbon at
a show, and that can be reallyhard, um, but we try to make it
fun for them and I think thatmost of our kids are here for
the connection and therelationship and so, even if
they don't get the bigcompetitions or showing off in
front of their friends, theyreally see the benefit that
(19:26):
they're building a relationshipwith their horse and it's the
horse has a lot more choice andcontrol over their situation.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
So let's talk about your book.
Does your book explain sort ofthe techniques that you were
just talking about?
Your book is called equineempowerment a guide to positive
reinforcement training yep, ourbook, um it.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
We really go heavy into the sciences.
We talk about the threesciences.
I think a lot of people focusjust on behavioral science.
Um, which is important, that'show we're modifying their
behavior.
But we also talk a lot aboutethology of the horse.
So ethology is really sorry,that's my donkey braying really
(20:07):
loud.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I love it Let him in, let him in.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I know I don't know what he's going on about, but
ethology is kind of the study ofwho horses are in nature and
how they behave, how theyinteract and what their needs
are, and understanding ethologyis really important to meeting
their needs in domestication.
(20:32):
If we don't understand howhorses would live if they had
free choice, we don't know howto make their life appropriate
in domestication.
And then the third science thatI go into pretty heavily is
neuroscience of emotions.
I'm kind of a neuroscience geek, so I really love to understand
(20:52):
how emotions work, how theyinfluence ourselves and our body
and our behaviors, and how wecan help build healthier mental
health for everyone.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Young people must see pretty easily, pretty quickly,
that if they come upset, thehorse can feel that, but they
can.
What I've learned is if I'mupset or whatever, I can say to
the horse I'm upset and I've hada bad day, instead of trying to
cover it up and pretend I'msomething I'm not, because the
horse is going to know that I'mcovering up.
Or if I'm afraid, I can say youknow, I'm a little afraid, I
(21:26):
need to take a breath, you knowI need to whatever, as opposed
to bullying through, becausewe're always taught as horse
people, you know, just get backon.
You know what I mean.
And the horse goes wait, youremotions aren't matching your
body.
I'm getting two differentsignals and that's more
upsetting for a horse than if Ihad just flat out said I'm a
little afraid, I'm going to takea pause, I'm going to, we're
just going to breathe through.
You know, I'm going to figurethis out together.
(21:47):
We'll figure this out.
Do you find your young peoplepick up on that?
Like, learn that pretty easily.
Like, be authentic withthemselves.
It's better for the horse andthen work on regulating.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I think so.
It's interesting because wehave kids that have come from
traditional programs and movedhere and they come with that
very masked defense.
Yeah, they're very focused on Ihave to look tough, I have to
look brave, and you know you'lltell them to do something and
you'll see them.
You know, super nervous, liketiptoeing around the horses, and
(22:22):
then you're like just stop, youdon't have to do, you don't
have to go that far, you canslow down you, we can break this
into steps for you and um.
But then the kids that havegrown up with only this, they've
seen how we model it with thehorses.
You know, if a horse starts toamp up, we immediately break
down the criteria, we make itinto small steps, we focus on
(22:47):
relaxation and just the otherday we have a young Mustang that
we're training how to ride.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, challenge.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
He came to us because he flunked out of a Mustang
training program and he was tooaggressive for them even to
begin handling, so he was neverhandled.
When we got him and he wasquite aggressive.
He turned his fear into angervery quickly and he was young
(23:16):
and he had to fight for all ofhis resources, all the.
He was put into a holding penwith all these adult stallions
and he was only a yearling.
Oh, so he he had to fight foranything he wanted, um, so he
was extreme resource guarder.
He was very aggressive.
The first year we had him, umit was.
(23:36):
It was a long year of a lot ofjust generous, just conditioning
, classically conditioninghumans as not a bad thing we're
not here to take your food.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
It's really good you say that, because most people
will not take the time it takesto get a horse to trust his
environment and trust you knowwhat's happening around him,
especially one that's off therange.
You know, with no good humanexperiences and been around, you
know horses that were too hardon him.
So cause most people are like Igot a new horse and I'm going
(24:09):
to ride him two days from nowand expect him to like, be not
upset at all about beinguprooted from his friends,
uprooted from a because theylove routine, being uprooted
from a routine Even though he'sa calm horse, maybe the dangers
of a new place he hasn't figuredout.
Is that dangerous?
Is that not dangerous?
Because that's his wiring toworry about things.
They don't give him the benefitof the doubt.
(24:29):
And a horse that's just lettinga horse be a horse and that
continually showing up, showingup as a positive thing, with no
expectations.
I'm not going to make you doanything, I'm just going to.
I'm just going to let you be ahorse.
What a healing time for thehorse.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
It took him a long time it did, and a lot longer
than most of our horses.
Um, and honestly, even after wekind of got him over the hump
of immediately seeing a humanand becoming angry and
frustrated and resource guardingand defensive, we could start
training behaviors, but it was avery slow process.
(25:06):
So it's been about three yearsbefore.
Now we feel like, okay, he'slike a normal horse now.
You know, you can put a halteron him, you can lead him
somewhere, you can do agility.
And there's still You're stillwatching his emotional level to
make sure he's not spiking, buthe's mostly normal.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, so this is Marigold.
Marigold, a cat just walkedinto frame.
For those of you that are onlylistening we had a donkey named
Marigold.
Okay, there you go, there yougo.
You don't want to see that.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
So we had one of our kids' students she's 12, and she
has been the one who's beenworking with him and training
him how to ride and a coupledays ago she was really feeling
nervous about riding and shedidn't want to tell me and she
(26:01):
told one of the other kids.
One of the other kids told me,like she's just not into it
today, she's kind of nervous,and I pulled her aside and I
told her if you have a reasonwhy today you're not comfortable
riding, don't get on.
You're right.
You're reading this situation.
You're reading the horse infront of you.
You're reading yourself in themoment.
(26:22):
If I'm feeling uncomfortabletoday, I'm not in the right
mindset to get on a horse, thatI'm that's going to feel that
and be made more nervous by that.
And we made it a really bigdeal for her to to be super
honest about our emotions andthat she's advocating for her
horse's needs.
That she's advocating for herneeds.
(26:42):
And we went.
We did something really funwith him instead and it was a
good day.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Everybody was happy in the end.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah, why push through, only to have something
bad inevitably happen, becausethat's when it's going to happen
.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Let's give that.
You know, didn't I learn thatlesson the hard way?
I hear you.
I hear you, yeah, okay, let'ssee, I'm going to look at my
notes here.
Okay, so we talked about yourbook, positive Reinforcement,
running the Rescue.
Okay, so how do the youngpeople find you?
Is this like something formal?
(27:18):
Is there like?
I mean, how do they?
I know it's a lot of word, I'mguessing a lot of word of mouth,
but do you work with you knowcounty services?
Do you work with you knowschools?
I mean, how do they find you?
And then did you have to gothrough particular?
You know vetting to be workingwith young people.
Do you have volunteers that youhave to like, like in 4-H, for
(27:40):
instance?
Everyone goes through abackground check.
You know, I'm asking thisbecause I just I love the
concept of your program and I'mwondering how a person could
duplicate it other places,because there's certainly a need
.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, so there's really not any formality to how
to run a program like this.
Unfortunately, because we'renot officially a therapeutic
riding program or therapeutichorsemanship program, um, but I
did take the time to getcertified as a path
(28:09):
international therapeutic ridinginstructor Um, and that's all
very traditional.
It's not positive reinforcement, it's not um, are they?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
traditionally when uh like special needs, um, uh, you
know, special not so much themethod, much mental health
sometimes, but more physical,it's more, yeah, physical
adaptations Sometimes it'sautism or you know.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
It's really focused on teaching the student how to
ride a horse around, whatevertheir needs might be.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
So it's different might be.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
So it's different.
Yeah, it's a different type ofprogram, but I felt it was
important for me to have thatbackground just so that I could,
you know, have a broader scopeof what the needs might be and
and understand how to adaptthings where we might need some
adaptations.
We do have a lot of students onthe autism spectrum.
We do have a lot of studentswith mental health disorders and
(29:05):
learning my personal boundaries.
I worked a lot with counselorsand social workers to learn
where do I?
put my walls up, Because it ishard yeah because you can't.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
You know, if love could fix them, they'd all be
cured, and it just doesn't workquite that way.
You know, obviously you'redoing what you can and sharing
in the way you can, and so I'msure they are, and everybody
around them.
We're all grateful for peoplelike you, because young people,
especially young people, goingthrough stuff, they are not
always easy and sometimes youknow they can lash out.
There can be issues, you knowthey can lash out.
(29:45):
There can be issues, you know,and it's like they're hurting
somehow, just like a horse, andit's like not personal.
Let's, let's figure out how wecan help.
So you know, good on you andyou.
Do you have a team, or is itjust you, or how does that work?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
um, so it is just me, um, but we've been growing in
the last few years and now wehave got a few more adults in
our program as volunteers andthey're helping a lot with the
business side of things, so thatit's a little bit less intense
for me, because I've been tryingto wear every hat of this
(30:16):
program.
We're a nonprofit and we have awebsite, we have an educational
program, we have the kidsprogram and the rescue aspect of
the program.
So it's a lot like I had tolearn how to make a website.
I don't know how to do that,you're very good at social media
.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
That's how I found you.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I've been trying.
I'm not really.
The kids taught me that.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
You put out articles on social media and that's how I
found you, because I wouldn'thave found you otherwise, and so
that's cool.
Um, so we will be putting likelinks to your, to your um,
non-profit and you know all thatstuff.
But how can people help um nowlocally?
Great, they can get in touchwith you.
So where are you located?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
so we're in in Maine, york Maine, so it's like right
over the border of New Hampshire, all right.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Beautiful country, I'm sure, and for those of us
that can't physically come, theyjust direct them to your
website and there's ways thatthey can help or they can learn
more, things like that, ofcourse.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, our website.
Donations are always welcome.
We are run completely on publicdonations.
So we have 13 equines and asheep and lots of cats that are
all fed by public donations, sowe really appreciate that.
Also, anything just spreadingthe word about positive
reinforcement A big part of ourprogram.
(31:39):
We can only hold about 13equines.
That's not very many in thegrand scheme of things.
So a big part of our program istrying to make the world better
so that we don't need to rescueas many so education, so
spreading the education is hugefor us.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Oh that's.
That's really a great program.
Lots of, lots of parts to it.
Okay, you have kind of a lovelyquote here.
Maybe we can talk about this.
You said we live in a world ofdisposable things.
You are not one of them.
You are irreplaceable.
One of a kind there will neverbe another.
You, you're not disposable, anddon't let anyone tell you
(32:18):
otherwise.
I love that because I'm sure somany young people, and older
people too, feel they'reworthless, feel that they're
just not any good to anybody.
With the young people that I'veworked with, that depression
and low self-esteem and feelinglike they can't contribute and
nobody wants them it'sdevastating.
How have you found that beingaround the horses helps build
(32:45):
confidence and that can helpimprove that?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Well, I think that that's where our program really
stands out above other programs,because our program is the
place that disposable horses go.
Horses, by nature, are treateddisposably, so if they are
useful to humans they'll begiven a good life, but the
minute they're not able to beused, they're, they're thrown
(33:10):
out, um, even if it's temporary,um, I think, more so than any
other pet animal.
Um, because they're kind oftrapped between livestock pets
and sports equipment and it'snot cheap to take care of a
horse, I mean it sure isn't.
So if you have one horse and youwant to ride, sometimes that
(33:34):
means that you have to get ridof a horse so that you can get a
rideable horse, and that isreally unfortunate and I really
feel like that's not a lessonthat our kids should be learning
.
Um, I mean, we wouldn't wantthem to do that to grandma when
grandma can't play anymore.
We should really be teachingour kids that, you know, if not
(33:56):
a lifetime commitment if youcan't promise a lifetime, at
least promise that you're goingto make sure that they go
somewhere safe and that they'regoing to be cared for for their
lifetime too.
So I think, in seeing the waythat we treasure each horse as
an individual is really kind ofpoints back to the kids too.
(34:21):
You know, we have blind horseswho couldn't be ridden, we have
animals with trauma.
We have horses that have worked.
Um, we have one who worked at alarge theme park in florida,
whose name I'm not allowed tosay, and uh, he, you know he was
.
He worked really.
(34:42):
He did a great job in his lifeand when he couldn't work
anymore, he needed to find ahome to go to and that's where
we came in and he is justtreasured here.
He's like everybody's favorite.
So I think for people to seethat second chances are
available, that you know, nomatter what you've been through,
(35:03):
second chances are available.
That you know, no matter whatyou've been through, no matter
what your disability might be orwhat your differences are,
there's a place in the world foryou and you'll be loved for for
that you know.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, absolutely that's.
That's great.
Okay, now it's time from thequestions which we took from Tim
Ferriss's excellent book.
What book would you recommendand why?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I think Plenty and Life is Free from Kathy Stout
that one to me.
You know I think we've read allthe science books about
positive reinforcement.
But Plenty and Life is Free isreally focused on.
It doesn't have to be acontingency, it doesn't have to
(35:50):
be a deal, an arrangement.
We can just love each other andlove and food we should use
that.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
And good stuff I love you right now, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, it's free.
You can give love for free andit doesn't cost you anything and
it doesn't hurt anyone.
So just share it, especiallywith our animals and our kids.
Um, just why you don't have toput everything on life, on
contingency, you don't have tomake everything a deal.
(36:22):
You know, and I think, I thinkthat for me, that book made a
big impact on me, and the titleof the book again Plenty and
Life is Free.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
And who wrote it?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
I think Kathy Stow.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Okay, okay, well, good, all right.
What is the most valuable thingthat you put your time into?
That has changed the course ofyour life?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
that you put your time into.
That has changed the course ofyour life.
Probably the rescue that I grewup at.
I was trying to think if therewas anything different, but it
really was that I grew up atthat rescue and it gave me my
mindset of providing a safeplace for horses, especially
horses at their end of life whohave been kind of let down by
their humans, to give them aplace where they can get what
(37:08):
they deserve a good end of life.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
So that's great, that's good.
In the last five years, whatnew belief, behavior or habit
has most improved your life?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
that's tricky.
Um, let's see, I think beliefis um.
Originally, I was very focusedon behavioral science and then I
kind of started to realize thatall these sciences, all these
(37:49):
different, um ways of looking atanimals, are all looking at the
same picture and they're notagainst each other, they're
complementary to each other.
So it's this idea that, um, youknow, a lot of people are like
well, it's strict behaviorism orstrict emotional, like
relationship building, and butthere's, there's a heavy balance
(38:12):
to all of it and you can find,I feel, like the truth is always
in the middle.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
That is so true.
That is so true.
She's sitting on my question soI have to move the cat.
Okay, what inspires andmotivates you?
Speaker 2 (38:30):
to do what you do and what is your true purpose in
the world?
The kids and the horses,obviously, and I think the fact
that the need exists motivatesme to do it.
I think that I needed it somuch as a kid growing up, I
needed animals in my life.
(38:51):
I needed horses, and theyhelped me survive, they helped
me overcome my growth and theyhelped me develop into a person
I'm proud to be, so I want thatfor every other kid that's in
that same situation.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Yeah, it's a good thing.
It's a good thing and you'redoing it.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I'm trying some days, some days easier than most.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
The last question what did you want to be as a
child, and how close did you getto that dream?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I absolutely wanted to be a horse rescuer.
I had all different ideas ofwhat that would look like, but I
knew that.
I think when I worked in that Iworked as a carriage driver in
the city because that was theonly job that had horses in the
city and that's when I narrowedit down to.
I want to rescue draft horsesthat have been working, but,
(39:50):
yeah, yeah, I always wanted tobe a horse rescuer.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Well, and you are.
That's that's pretty great.
Okay, so let's just recap.
You can give out the name ofyour website to we're going to
add this to the show notes, butwhere can they?
Where can A we find your book Bwhere can we, you know, like go
ahead and say your website, howto find you?
You know, if you're on socialmedia, that sort of thing, kind
of the rundown, so that peoplecan find you and learn more
(40:14):
about what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, we are Empowered Equines, and we're
Empowered Equines on everysocial media, so facebook,
instagram, tiktok, we're allempowered equines and um, our
website is empoweredequinescomand our book is equine
empowerment and I think that'severything.
Okay.
Where do we find the book?
(40:36):
Um, you can find the book onany large bookseller, so like
amazon or bookscom, anythinglike that.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Writing a book is a huge endeavor.
I mean, that's quite anaccomplishment just right off
the bat.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
That is something, and so that it took me like five
years, but I'm actually.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
I am almost done and almost published a kid's book
series, so it's for kids, butadults will appreciate it too,
because it just simplifies itall there's so little out there
for because I have grandchildrennow that are going to be riding
you know, my horses and hangingout with me a lot with the
horses.
That's my goal.
I'm going to get a rider out ofone of them, but anyway, they
(41:16):
all love animals.
I try to explain what is thishorse feeling, what is this ear
saying, what you know, but tohave a children's book that can
explain it better, cause youknow they're always going to
learn better from someonebesides their own relative.
It's just the nature of it, youknow a guide.
A guide would be extremelyhelpful, something that they can
read and understand on theirown.
I mean well done you.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
So it's almost, it's almost ready, that's great,
that's great, okay.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Well, I tell you, jessica, this has been really
enlightening and motivatingbecause we're building the
indoor arena, we're in Wisconsin, so the same kind of winters,
it's cold, windy, wet, muddy,everything.
The culmination of a what 30,40-year dream to build this
arena.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I was going to say that's my dream too.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
And then it has a photo studio attached, which
means I can keep doing my workand training, training other
animals.
The cat is pulling on my headthat's my dream too.
And we have taken in youngpeople in the past that actually
came and lived with us and werelike daughters to us.
So we're we're not into thatanymore, so much now that we're
(42:24):
older.
But I know the healing power ofanimals and so I may be
bothering you in the future like, okay, how did you do that?
How did you?
do that, I've got rescue horseshere, that you know, and the
sheep, which is a whole nothershow, because how sheep can work
as therapy animals is anotherthing.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Sheep are amazing.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yeah, there's just so much to learn, but I feel like
if we build it, they will comeand um cause I.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
I just have to open that door and I and I think I
think we put a lot of focus onlike is this horse going to be
okay for kids?
Honestly, every horse is okayfor kids.
You might have to use protectedcontact, you might have to
really slow down the trainingwith the kids, but kids will
adapt to the horse in front ofthem.
We have a completely blindhorse who you couldn't touch at
(43:11):
all.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
No, there's no where it's coming from she was
terrified of humans terrified.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
And it was a 12-year-old who built the first
relationship with her, becauseshe was small, she was soft, she
read her body language and shetook the time to develop a
relationship.
So yeah, I think children aremuch more intuitive.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Children are much more intuitive with their
animals and much more willing totalk to them.
You know to like literally talkto them with a conversation to
be accepting.
You know they're not demandingthat this horse be or perform,
or you know much more open andhonest in a way.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, she had no schedule in her mind, like for
me.
I'm like, okay, we have to gether wearing a halter, we have to
get her doing this, and she'slike, I just want to hang with
her.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
That's what she needs .
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Well, Jessica, thank you so much for taking the time
to share what you've been doingand keep it up, I mean good on
you, I'm thrilled, I'm thrilledfor you.
Thanks for taking the time.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Thank you so much.
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