Julie Smart - What Horses Want - Trust, Communication and Leadership

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New Zealand Horse advocate and author, Julie Smart joins Barbara O'Brien in a conversation not just about training, but about retraining ourselves to listen, to watch, and to feel the subtle cues that horses give us when trying to communicate. 

We talk about how spending undemanding time with our horses changes how they feel about and us and can really help build a better, more trusting relationship.  We also talk about how horses never stop learning and can be trained at any age with atunement and understanding. 

Julie recommends books like 'True Horsemanship Through Feel' by Bill Dorrance and Leslie Desmond, and 'Warwick Schiller's Principles of Training'. Julie shares her biggest failure, which involved a horse named Ethel, and how it taught her the importance of not believing what others say about horsemanship. They also talk about fear and the need to acknowledge and respect it, as well as the luckiest thing that has happened to Julie, which is having her mother as a role model.

https://www.empathetic-trainer.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien andyou're listening to the

(00:36):
Empathetic Trainer podcast.
Today's guest is Julie Smart.
Julie has been training horsesfor most of her life.
Her first job was at her motherand aunt's riding school and
she worked in the New Zealandracing scene in her 20s.
At age 40, she injured her backand was told and aunt's riding
school and she worked in the NewZealand racing scene in her 20s
.
At age 40, she injured her backand was told she may never ride
again.
So she bought a mare in full toexplore groundwork and to
motivate her healing.
It was then she discoverednon-English traditional

(00:56):
horsemanship and it changed herlife.
Well, that's a whole podcast initself.
We definitely want to hear someof that and what that all means
.
But let's start at thebeginning.
Let's start about when you werelittle and your first exposure
to horses.
I'm a crazy horse lady now, somaybe you're the same, but let's
start there.

(01:16):
What was it like for you whenyou were young?

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, sure.
Well, I was born in London andwas born completely under the
spell of horses, as many of usare.
I drew and read and dreamedabout horses and I was extremely
lucky that my mother fosteredmy interests and I got to go to
a riding school once a week inSouth London called Willow Tree

(01:40):
Riding Stables.
And then, when I was nine, thebest thing happened and we
immigrated to New Zealand andover here, of course, no, it was
quite a different scene.
Over here, I got to meet horsesthat had were not prepared for
you to get on and ride.
It wasn't riding lessons, itwas life with horses.
So it was quite different andum, and that was fantastic, my

(02:03):
first um, um trekkingexperiences.
Here there's a lady.
We didn't have riding lessons.
You would just go um and spenda day with this lady on her farm
and and her name was ronafraser and um and she, she would
eye you up and match you upwith a pony and you had to go
and find that pony and catch itand put the halter on and bring

(02:24):
them in and groom them and dotheir feet and tack them up
yourself, and I've never doneany of that stuff.
So so I learned an awful lotabout horses from her, which is
fantastic.
Um, I owned horses from the ageof 13.
My mum and my aunt ran a ridingschool and, and, um, it didn't
go for very long, it was onlyfor three years, but that was a
big part of my teen years and,yeah, then I was in the racing

(02:45):
industry and that was everythingfrom.
It was a stud farm initially,and so it was breeding, weaning,
bowling, handling young foals,teaching them to lead holstery,
training them that sort of thingpre-track training, yearling
preparation, preparation forsales, and then track training

(03:06):
and and and track, so for our,for other people that aren't um
british or new zealand.
Tracking means oh, as a trackrider, meaning you ride the
horse on the racetrack, so so,so yeah, yeah training the
horses to be race horses,basically on the on the
racetrack.
So a track rider is someone whodoes that and that was one of

(03:28):
the things I did and I learnedan awful lot there.
But it was very.
Of course it's an industry no,it's an industry and it was very
sort of factory.
There's one after the other,there's things that will happen
in a row and not much time forthe horses themselves, and I got
a lot of horse experience.

(03:49):
But I also shattered a lot ofdreams as well, Because when I
was a little girl I was readingbooks like the Black Stallion
and I wanted to be the boy whowas galloping down the beach
with his black stallion.
You know, bridle-less Beforebridle-less was a word know,
bridalist and before bridalistwas a word and I always felt
there was more to the connectionthan just hairy bicycles.

(04:12):
You know Horses aren't sportsequipment.
And it took me yeah, I learnedthat through the racing industry
that there's only so much ofthat.
You can know it's sointeresting.
Back in those days we had nointernet, we had no way of

(04:34):
realizing that there were peopleout there proving the
impossible.
Every day you learned from thepeople who are closest to you
and it was convenience andtradition and that's what
carried it all through.
I learned a lot of good things,but there was a lot that was
convenience and tradition andthat's what carried it all
through.
I learned a lot of good things,you know, but there was a lot
that was missing as well.
And then, yeah, when I hurt myback, it was truly one of those
lucky breaks, if you like,because I didn't know anything

(04:55):
about groundwork apart fromlunging and a little bit of long
lining.
And so I thought, well, I'llget this mirror and fold and
find out what is possible.
And someone asked me had Iheard of the Pearly Seven Games?
And I hadn't, and so I boughtthe book, and so I used that to
sort of get some differenttechniques on the ground.
And that just sort of coincidedwith the beginning of the very

(05:21):
slow dial-up internet and DVDs.
Now, before that was allvideotapes, if you were lucky,
you know.
So.
Um, so I I was able to learnremotely, because here in new
zealand everything was verytraditional.
There weren't many people doinganything outside the square.
Uh, when I was about 40 yeah,it was when I had that mirror

(05:41):
fall um, I was working with themayor and I took her to a clinic
with a man called RussellHiggins and he has been my
mentor ever since.
He is an incredible horseman.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
He's a New Zealander.
I'm sorry, let's see if we cantalk about him just a little bit
.
His name is yeah RussellHiggins.
Yeah, with a W.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
No doubles.
Ws Russell Higgins, higgins,higgins with an.
H.
Yeah, Sorry, I speak fast andI've got an accent.
Sorry about that.
It's okay, it's wonderful so.
Russell.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Higgins, and is he still around?
Oh, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
I learn from him every year and for the past 10
years I've been organizingclinics for him in our area as
well.
He also travels internationally.
He traditionally would spendprobably three quarters of the
year going around travellingaround the world teaching.
He's spending more time at homenow and teaching more local
students, which has been a very,very recent change, but I don't

(06:42):
think there's many countries hehasn't been to.
I honestly wouldn't know howmany he.
He teaches in some really,really interesting places,
started working with him.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
What, uh, what was the revelation that you had?
What did you learn from him, orcontinue to, learn.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, um it was.
It was a continuation of of.
Um, I mean really the.
The biggest effect and thiswon't be a popular thing, but
the biggest effect on my lifewas when I first discovered
Pirelli, and he was a Pirelliprofessional at that time.
If I think about all my topmentors, the people I absolutely
love learning from today AndreaWadey, elsa, sinclair, warwick

(07:20):
obviously.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Warwick Schiller.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
for those who aren't knowing but if I think of and
Russell, you know three of thosefour people all came through
the Pirelli system.
They actually learned a lot andwhile it's very popular to sort
of denigrate certain things, Ilearned so much from them.

(07:49):
I really, really did, and a lotof it was the actual psychology
of horses and about the, thebones of operant conditioning
and behaviorism.
Before I knew that operantconditioning was, was a thing
and um that they first taught meabout positive reinforcement.
You know how to motivate ahorse that doesn't want to go.
You know use food.
And while they didn't have thescience and the proper terms for

(08:16):
everything, they madelegitimized, not a common sense.
If you have the thought to getoff the horse when you're scared
for itself, well, get off thehorse.
That's the right thing to do.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
If that thought crosses your mind and uh, yeah,
so, so, um, those, no, there'sdefinitely been a shift and a
growth from uh, with the kind ofmatches, the growth of the
internet, because informationstarted to get out there more
and more yeah, you know, and nowthere's so much um, there's
conflicting information, butthere seems to be a real trend

(08:45):
in the horse world to use whatWarwick Schiller calls
attunement to getting tounderstand why your horse is
doing what it's doing, why it'sthinking, you know, and then how
to communicate better, in thatyou understand Same things
happening with people in theworld of trauma and
understanding that everyone hashad, you know, different traumas
, different levels, but it'sstill there and it's all things

(09:06):
to be worked through.
You know, and we saw thisrevolution in dog training.
It started a little faster thanwith the horses, it's been
around a little longer, but asI'm I don't know if you know,
julie, but I'm an animal actortrainer, so I train animal
actors and I can imaginetraining them without food,
because it's like that was partof the motivation to make the
game really, really fun.
Because, yes, of course you canmake a dog behave, I suppose,

(09:30):
and they do work off of praiseand that's nice.
But how much more fun to get ayummy piece of turkey, you know.
So I mean you can.
And treat training with horsescan work really, really well too
, no doubt.
Especially, we were talkingabout Morgan horses and I think
they're the most food motivatedhorses in the world.
So if your timing is correctand you have the timing and you
can do all this, you know, andyou don't create a monster, well
then good on you.

(09:50):
You know so, but but youimagine, nobody would have, even
years ago, at least when I wasgrowing up.
That was ridiculous.
You wouldn't think I'm going togive them.
I'm going to shape a behavior.
I'm going to shape a behavior.
I'm going to shape a behaviorand reward it with something
yummy, you know, and and we'lljust rewarding horses at all.
You know, growing up I grew upvery much like you, or I had

(10:11):
this older woman that had a farmand she would, I'd work
Saturday mornings, do chores andwork and do things to earn
hours so that I could ride allafternoon, you know.
So I didn't have to pay for myriding lessons.
So it was the best thing is a,you learned how to work hard,
but B, we did complete and totalfreedom, which also means we
had no guidance.
You know, jumped on those fourhorses and just rode all over

(10:33):
and they were so forgiving.
You know, those horses if youthink about it.
What, what, uh, you know?
Um, so, yeah, horses areamazing animals, but now, as a
horse person, I'm trying to dobetter all the time,
understanding them better so Ican do better, and I think
there's a great desire amongpeople to do better with horses,

(10:53):
dogs, cats, everything you know, children, I hope, yeah,
definitely so.
Um, then you had this, marinfull and full, and how did that
help with your healing?
Then with your back, I mean,you know your life changing.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Well, first of all, I hadn't realized up until then
those dream horses I used toread about and the relationships
I've dreamed about and thethings I would try to do, like
riding my halter with a leadrope when I had no idea how to
actually use those tools tocontrol any sort of situation.
Really, that mare and foal,coinciding with learning about

(11:36):
the groundwork, revealed to mewhat horses were really like.
I realised that I didn'tactually know my horses.
I said I loved horses, but Ididn't love the horses.
I loved the idea of the horsesand this picture that I had in
my head of everything thathorses meant to me.
And when, of course, when you'reyounger, it's all tied up with
ego as well.
You know freedom for beingfemale.

(11:58):
You know strength Horses are agreat equalizer.
You know if I'm on a horse I'mequal to anybody.
You know and and um, and so inmy teen years I got a lot of my
strength from from having ahorse and um, but.
But the thing is it waseverything that those horses
could do for me.
When I realized this mirrorfold, I started doing the
groundwork and right at the verybeginning of their program

(12:19):
which is the beginning of everygood program was um spending
undemanding time actuallygetting to know the animal being
there without actually askingthem to do anything.
You know, and anything that'sany good, I think, kind of
starts from there.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
And when I did that so undemanding time.
I'm just going to repeat theseconcepts for people.
Please do, Because you're likeme.
We get excited and we talk fast, I'm going to help our audience
out.
Thank you Undemanding time.
From what I understand and whatyou're saying is and Warwick
Schiller, who I really followquite a bit you go out and don't

(12:56):
ask for anything.
It doesn't have to betransactional.
That's what you're sayingcorrect Exactly.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, the only thing that you're really asking for is
feedback, so the horses don'thave to give you anything,
they've just got to bethemselves.
And what's the best thing aboutthat sort of work, barbara, is
that it really hones our own.
You were talking before abouttiming, with positive
reinforcement, and, of course,timing with any horsemanship is
absolutely crucial.
And I think that theundemanding time when you're

(13:24):
looking at horses and you'relooking for feedback, and then
if you take an Elsa Sinclair,take on it and think, right, how
could I make them feel a littlebit better?
You know, if you see the horseis a wee bit tense, doesn't like
you being there you can walkaround, get a bit of rhythm and
you can see how that affectsthem.
And the timing of when you dothat is vital.
So what it does is it increasesyour feel, because to me, I

(13:45):
think feel is really defined bypaying attention.
There's a great saying which Iheard from Russell, and I don't
know where he got it from butfocus gives you feel.
Focus and feel give you timing.
Focus, feel and timing give youbalance.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Okay, that's wonderful.
I want you just to repeat thatNice and slow Start over again.
That was wonderful so focusgives you feeling.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
Focus gives you feel, focus and feel give you timing,
focus, feel and timing give youbalance.
Oh, I love it.
Okay, and it starts with thefocus, with paying attention,
our focus.
And it's not like going upthere and staring at the horse
you do not want to do that butpaying attention in the way the
horse does.
How do they react to each other?
You know if they're orientingin the same direction as each

(14:28):
other.
Do they stand perpendicular toeach other and stare at each
other?
They don't.
You know, you try and get twohorses to approach each other
nose to nose when you're ridingand you soon realize how
difficult they find that.
You know it's quite aconfrontational thing to have
the two eyes, you know, and, um,yeah, so right, so so, yeah,
just all those things that sortof yeah, they're undermining

(14:49):
time.
I think it's just such apowerful.
There's so much value.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Doing nothing is not doing nothing, it's definitely
doing something right, okay, sothat would be the first step
undemanding time, and then yeah,what happens?

Speaker 2 (15:06):
after that um, well, that was when the vowel dropped
and I realized that my horseswere just like my dogs.
They're people, that they haveopinions.
And when I started giving themopinions no, it was okay for
them to be far away.
If they wanted to, or if theywanted to come and talk to me,
that was okay as well.
Um, the next thing that tendedto well, what rose with with my

(15:29):
mirror and foal anyway was whenthey realized they were allowed
opinions.
They, um, they started tellingme their opinions and they had
some rather interesting opinionsabout their life experiences up
until then, you know, and anduh, and they let me know, know
if this was okay or if that wasnot okay.
I mean, I'll use my latest horseas an example.
Um, he's an ex-enduranceArabian and he's 10 years old

(15:54):
and he did four years working inthe endurance racing scene and
professionally, with sort ofhigh level.
Um, you know, our, our goodpeople and competitive, I mean.
And when I bought him, I couldsee that he'd been very well
treated.
He liked the man that hebelonged to very much.
I could tell that.

(16:15):
And the man said to me oh, he'sgreat, he's my favourite horse
to ride, and I can see why Iagree with him.
But he also said he's great foreverything.
He's really good to tack up andto groom and everything else.
Well, when I gave that horsesome opinions, he told me very
clearly that he did not want tobe tied up, he did not want to
be groomed and he did not wantto be saddled.
And so you know this and itfeels like, oh, I've created a

(16:41):
monster.
Now my horse won't do anything.
Right, right, yeah, if you hada choice, right, yeah, yeah, but
, but, but, yeah, it's consent,you know.
And so you learn how to.
Um, I've learned.
It started with that mare andfoal, with just little things,
but with him it just took.
I'm just having such afantastic time teaching him that

(17:01):
it's okay to be saddled and andteaching him that actually he
might want to be saddled and andteaching him that actually he
might want to be saddled and and.
So we've got an agreement Inever put a saddle on him unless
he's at liberty and he's out inthe paddock and I stand there
and I hold his saddle pad up andhe comes charging over.
He does everything with greatemphasis, gives me his back and
put the saddle blanket on hisback and and um.

(17:22):
It started off with theattunement and with the cat h
and that sort of thing, but.
But as soon as the horse goesthrough that stages, you know to
start off, they're worriedabout something.
They say no, no, no, and youback away and you let them have
that no.
Then when they start trustingthat that you are reliable and
they can tell you something andyou're going to respond to it,
they start expecting you torespond in a way that they

(17:44):
appreciate and then you canstretch the moment.
They say no.
You say are you sure?
And they go, oh, okay, I'llrelax now.
Great, then you retreat again,you don't go forward, you
retreat again.
Then when they get curious,when that horse comes up to you
and starts nudging that saddleblanket, no, that's when you can
do your training.
And to me there's a verydistinct difference between

(18:05):
taming and training.
Taming, to me, is thebefriending and building the
trust and the connection and allthat sort of thing, the things
that horses have with each other.
The training, this is theoperant conditioning and you can
use positive or negativereinforcement.
No, ethically no and um, andfor me with that particular
horse, because I was counterconditioning how he's feeling

(18:26):
about the saddle and the saddleblanket.
He got a click and a treat andand so that developed huge
motivation and enthusiasm and ofcourse he's gone from a horse
that would argue and obviouslyupset no biting and stomping his
feet and flashing his ears andeverything to to someone that
canters to me to get his saddleon, you know.

(18:47):
So he still has a bit of sassabout it.
You know it's done, he he'llcome and he'll toss his head.
It's almost like, oh, if youmust, you know, and once again
that's another little level,that that you have to check it
back with and say are you sure?
Are you sure?
Are you sure you know and it'san ongoing conversation, it it's
yeah it's really good and itnever stops, never stops.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
No, you're always working on that consent, so I
forgot what the originalquestion was no, no, no, no,
that was that, was it?
That's really really wonderful.
Yeah, my earlier podcast guestswill know that a couple of year
and a half ago now my earlierpodcast guests will know that a
couple of year and a half agonow I've got three horses, three
Morgan mares foundation workingWestern Morgan mares.

(19:30):
So they're the small, compact,old style Morgan mares fillies
from out West, out in Montana.
So it's very, very vast andit's mountains and mountain
range and plains, and so theyhad a very, very large, you know
really considerably largepasture and there was like 60 in
the herd that were together themares and foals all the time.
And so the two yearling filliescame completely open-minded,

(19:53):
like blank slates.
They had not been mishandledbecause they'd had, you know,
enough care, you know, throughtheir lives, but not handled,
certainly not handled right, Imean.
But no bad experiences, youknow, with humans.
Humans were fine, okay, andthey're like sponges and they're
adorable, and I just they'recoming three years old now and I
mean they're just a blast right, they learn, they play, they

(20:16):
got sass, but you know I've hadthem like blank slates, they've
only had good things.
Um, the other mare, that's fivecoming five.
Um, for a short time, thebreeder had a trainer.
That wasn't because they had somany horses, he didn't, he
wasn't aware, but he had atrainer who the breeder said in
his laconic Western way, thetrainer fancied himself a roper

(20:39):
and I never really understood,like, what that meant.
But I have these visions ofthese.
You know, was he roping thesehorses and knocking him down?
Or you know what was he doing?
He got fired as soon as he wasfound out.
But the third mayor, the oldestmayor, rita, came with such a
fear of confinement, a fear ofany enclosed space, a fear of
any type of rope, any type oflead, you know, and um it just,

(21:02):
uh, this is when I was just, youknow, starting to understand
attunement, starting, uh, thiswas when I was just, you know,
starting to understandattunement, starting to follow
Warwick, schiller and the others, trying to grasp what was going
on.
And I never I learned to whatyou're talking about.
First of all, that undemandingtime, so the whole first winter,
because she would turn her backend like threatening to kick.
You know, I mean she did, shewould double barrel.

(21:23):
You know it was going to happenif you got too close.
There was like so much nervousand worry about her.
I had to learn.
She needed to be able to seethe horizon and see the world
around her.
Like a barn was too frighteningbecause she couldn't see what
was coming.
And on the prairie she had tosee what was coming.
You know, it could be a coyote,it could be this, could be that

(21:45):
.
I learned that it took a longtime for her to understand that
the ropes weren't a rope, ahalter.
None of that was going to hurther.
You know that it took time forher to be safe, but I took the
time it took, you know, givingup that expectation, and a
breakthrough happened within afew months.
I remember I'd work with herthrough the fence on her body
because then I could beprotected contact without
getting hurt, and she chose thenshe chose to stand by me

(22:08):
instead of.
You know, she could go as shepleased.
Um, and I would.
Um, there's apparently a nerveroom, um, some right under their
jawline, and she loved it whenI would just stroke her and she
still does.
You know, along here if youimagine a horse's jawline and
holding her like this and shebreathing we're always taught
keep those horses faces awayfrom you, you know get

(22:30):
out of my space.
Get out of my space.
Get out of my space, right, butlearning to trust interaction.
By watching their body languageyou can tell if they're going
to bite you.
If you have any sense at all,you can tell they're.
You know.
So watching body language andkeeping your hands like a
catcher's mitt, you're not gonnagoing to hear.
She smelled me from head to toeand it was the most wonderful
feeling of peace, like thisbreakthrough of like.

(22:51):
You know, yes, it's going totake more time.
I'm sure I've got to pick upher feet the next day.
You know things like that.
It's, it's going to take.
It took time, but I feel likethat horse would climb a tree
for me.
Now I feel like, you know, andshe's, we haven't trained her
for saddle because she's justcoming five and I really want
her bones to grow, you know.
So this would be a introductionyear, but not a riding year,

(23:12):
cause um, but.
But now it's like she runs overand she's like scratch my butt.
You know that back end that Iwas so afraid of.
You know she's like please, Ilove, that's my favorite.
Uh, that breakthrough, that'sso possible if you take the time
.
You know, just, it's all abouttime.
So, yeah, we get blessed witheasy, easy horses, but sometimes

(23:35):
we get horses that are teachingus something and this horse has
taught me patience yeah, that'samazing.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Oh, good for you.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
That's just so I understand what you're saying
about your guy teaching you youknow um that he had an opinion
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Well, I mean, I knew that he would have, but, but, um
, but, and of course he's.
He still turned up 18 yearsafter other horses and told me
that as well, but but he wasjust a really, really good
expressive example because, like, no, so, but that protected
contact, I mean, that's soimportant um for scared horses,

(24:09):
because and aggressive horses,you know, but, and because, um,
we're safe, but so are they, youknow, like, like you said, she
can leave, she could go any any.
No, she, she only interactedwith you if she wanted to.
And um, I've, um, I've usedthat as well.
Um, generally speaking, I'veworked with a number of wild

(24:32):
horses and my preferred way ofdoing it is is through um,
through consent, with as muchspace as possible, you know, and
what basically happened is um.
In 2012, one of our localrescues picked up 21 wild horses
that were going to be sent toslaughter and they needed
volunteers to help work withthem.

(24:54):
And, of course, there's notthat many people that have the
time and the skills.
I didn't have the skills allthe time, but there were four of
us who were pretty determinedthat we were going to help these
horses, and two of us initiallyit was myself and my friend
Philippa were the initialhandlers.
My friend Andrea took care ofthe day-to-day routine things

(25:17):
and our friend Sam had organisedit all, made it all happen, did
all the fundraising, and shealso became one of the trainers
as well.
And what I noticed from thatexperience with those wild
horses 21 wild horses, mares,yearlings and foals most of the
mares are pregnant as well and,yeah, we had a timeline one wild
horses, mares, yearlings andfoals most of the mares are
pregnant as well and um, yeah,we, we had a timeline.

(25:41):
We know none of us actuallyasked to do it.
We were asked to do it and thenwe felt that we had to, and,
and, and, of course, we wantedto help these horses.
It was an amazing journey, so,so emotional on many, many
levels, but um the the wild onesthere to start with, because we
didn't know what we were doing.
We tried different thingsbecause we had enough of them
and we started with the easiestones.

(26:02):
You know the foals the oneswhich already had homes waiting.
No one wanted the mares, buteveryone wanted the young ones,
because they were beautifulyoung horses, you know so.
So um sure so yeah, and so thethe most common way of starting
wild horses here what was then,anyway, is um, you get them in a
yard, you get a long stick, youtouch them with the stick, you

(26:22):
know, use, approach and retreatuntil they become acclimatized
to that.
So you work your way up untilyou can get no, get a rope on.
Quite often, I mean, somepeople will do things like put
halters and ropes on them andturn them out to get used to it,
which is a a terrible idea.
I would never do that.
But what I realised with thesewild horses just being in the
yard they were way overthreshold and I knew about

(26:43):
thresholds already back then,because of Pirelli.
Basically, they had beencatching that years before.
You know that on the thresholdis a term that they coined, and
so, um, so, so.
So I tried a round pen thatgave more room, and there was me

(27:03):
, standing in the middle of thisround pen with this colt
galloping around and around andaround, absolutely terrified
realizing that I'd made amistake.
You know, um, he was toofrightened.
No, just me being there, beingon the other side of the fence,
made a big difference to thosehorses, not as big a difference
as if they're on the other sideof the fence and they can
actually avoid you, if they can,you know.
And so what?

(27:24):
I realized what happens.
We went with all the young onesand we were getting it done.
You know that that it was okay,but, um, but it was coming
towards winter and the marestill hadn't been touched, and
so so, um, we, we got one of themares and put her on a stock
truck and we brought her down tomy house so I could work with
her here.
And I haven't got.

(27:45):
I didn't have a small yard inthose days, and um, but what was
really interesting, when thetruck arrived and they lowered
the ramp.
Andrea, who'd been doing all thedaily things, no, and hadn't
actually been involved hands-onwith the horses, that much
training as such, ginger froze,she stood in the back of that

(28:06):
horse truck and she justcouldn't move.
Everything was completelydifferent once again.
She had lost all of her friends, all of her family, that mare
right, um, she loved the foals,you know, and she'd been
separated from the foals.
She'd lost her own foal at thefacility when she first, about
two weeks after she firstarrived, you know.
So she'd been through a lot andthere she was, standing there,
isolated from everyone else.

(28:26):
Again she saw Andrea.
We were trying to think howwe're going to get her off.
No, we just had to wait untilshe comes down.
She saw Andrea walk out and shesaw Andrea.
She locked onto her, shefollowed her and I thought, wow,
look at that.
And so to get her from where wehad to unload into what I call
my welcome paddock, she actuallyhad to go through another
paddock, quite close up to anoverhanging sort of hedge, and

(28:49):
through a narrow gate and intothe paddock, and she just
followed.
Require a lot of trust a lot oftrust.
Yeah, yeah, horse, yeah and Imean, no one had been within
about 30 meters of this horsewith her consent, to that point,
you know.
And so the fact that shefollowed andrea through she
wasn't super close, she wasn't,no, but she followed her and she
trusted her and that was a bigpenny drop for me.
I thought well, no, somethingabout building that familiarity

(29:13):
and the routine.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
No and that was the undermining time.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Andrew was doing undermining time without knowing
she was doing undermining timebecause someone had to put her
out, someone had to pick the pooup.
Someone needs to know and she'sright.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yeah, no, I understand, I understand.
Uh, when I still now, okay, soI, I've gotten rita the mayor,
the the anxious mayor, used toworking inside of my barn, you
know.
So she can see out one door butthe rest of it is enclosed.
Um, cause they're.
They're out 24 seven.
They have shelter, but they'reout 24 seven.
They're not kept in stalls.
So she comes in and gets someyummies, and you know we do some

(29:45):
stuff.
So but leading her out, she hasto stop.
You have to give her thatminute, that that one.
Her eyes need chance to changeto the light.
Horses take a longer time fortheir light.
We can go into a dark room andour eyes will adjust pretty
quickly.
Horses, it takes a long time.
I read like what did it say?
You know, lucy Reese, or no,I'm sorry, the other one that

(30:06):
talked about horses brains takestime for their eyes to adjust,
right, so that's part of it.
When they go into a dark spaceit's because they're trusting us
, because they can't see.
But anyway, she's going from adarker space to a lighter space.
She has to stop A let her eyesadjust, but she has to check it
out.
Her Mustang she's a Morgan, buther Mustang mind you know her
feral horse, mind goes, I needto see that it's safe.

(30:29):
And so I don't fight that I gosure, take a look.
And it's a very.
It gets shorter all the time.
But I said, take a look, shelooks, I look with her, we look,
I go see it's cool.
She goes, yes, it's cool, andyou see her just go fine, and
then she steps out.
But old me perhaps, you know,would have been like what's the
matter with you?
You know, energy, energy getout.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
You know I let her think and that builds trust,
because I'm letting her thinkand that shows really great
leadership from your point ofview as well, because and how
she would see you the fact thatyou're making choices which make
her feel better and safer, andyou're doing it together.
You're sharing that leadershipstrategy of making sure it's
safe before you go out.

(31:10):
You know that proves to herthat you're a trustworthy person
, and I mean how?
And it proves to you thatyou're a trustworthy person and
it proves to you that you're atrustworthy person too.
I mean, if you have ahesitation, if you stop and have
a look.
No, to build trust, we need totrust ourselves and we need to
trust each other.
And, to me, leadership withhorses is all about providing

(31:34):
safety.
Keeping the herd safe is theoverall aim of aim of.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
It is not about being she's the watcher, you know,
she's definitely the watcher ofthe herd, so and, and she'll she
transfers that to me too.
It's like we're workingtogether and she'll look and
I'll go like, oh okay, I'llagree with her.
Like you know, I'm glad younoticed, I'm glad you noticed
that deer and you know like deerin the distance, and then we
watch the deer and then we goback Like, fine, you know, like

(32:00):
I just agree with her, I don'tget after her for being who she
is, you know.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
I bet that she pays attention.
When you notice things as well,I bet you could say hey, look
at that.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Oh yeah, she's much quicker than me, though, believe
me.
Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
She's much quicker than me, though.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's their job, that's her job, okay,
well, that's, that's a prettygood segue into um, um, horse
questions, because when I talkedto you about doing this podcast
, um, cause, um, julie, you're,you're, um, are going to be
writing a book you talked aboutand we're going to talk about
your book, but it's not out yet.
And, um, it's not like you havethis big, you know, internet

(32:42):
presence or anything like that.
The reason I've connected withyou is, though, you are
commenting and moderating otherhorse trainers their Facebook
pages or their discussions andthings like that, and you have
an incredible amount of patience, for when somebody asks a
question about their horse orthe horse they're training, you
are so kind, because part of mewants to throttle them sometimes

(33:04):
, like, are you an idiot?
Stop chasing your horse untilshe's dying of exhaustion.
She's not learning, you know.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
I mean I have less patience, or could, and I hardly
know anything at all, but youabout writing isn't it.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
You can edit before you put it down.
But you are so kind.
But what I find so striking isyour ability to take a very
complex issue, and you're doingit now as we speak take a
complex thing and break it downfor simple people like me to
understand, and so I think it'sa great gift that you're giving

(33:37):
us at large to be able to readyour comments, and I know that
the horse trainers that you'realigned with are appreciative of
you taking the time to answerand help people with the horses.
So I thought it would be fun ifI asked a couple questions,
that I put it out to my audience.
What are you having some issueswith?
And so there's two things thatcame up.
One is a personal issue, so Ijust have to, I have to ask you

(33:59):
these things, and the other onewas a really good question.
It was about how old or is itis a horse.
Ever get too old to be trained?
And there's a little backstoryhere.
Back in we we went and there wasa group of what we call the
Iowa 41, and it was 41 Morganhorses that needed, that needed

(34:22):
rescue.
Uh, they were starving and theowner at the time turned them
over to a rescue group insteadof selling them off to auction,
slaughter or whatever.
So that was great that heturned them over, realized
whatever you know, and therescue group got them, and so
and so, um, we went down thereand photographed them to help
them get homes, and I ended up,of course, taking two of them
home, so you know.

(34:42):
So, anyway, but they all gotplaced and one of them was a
stallion.
I think he was a stallion I'msure he's a gelding now but a
young horse, and they called himketchup.
Ketchup was his name, and uh,the gal reached out to me when I
asked the question and she saidhow old is too old to be
trained?
Because we, we've never beenable to, uh, train him.
His anxiety level is so high,you know.

(35:03):
And so, um, I was going topoint her to to warwick schiller
and, like you say, elsasinclair and some others, to
kind of help her with herhorse's anxiousness and anxiety.
But can horses get too old tolearn new things?
I mean, can you, you know, workwith an old broodmare, for
instance?

Speaker 2 (35:19):
yeah, absolutely you can.
I don't think they ever stoplearning um horses.
They're a precocial species,right, you know?
So they're born ready to learnfrom birth, ready to be up and
to be able to run to save theirlives within an hour or so of
being born.
You know um horses couldn'thave babies like we do, little
helpless young, because they areprey animals, and to be able to

(35:40):
run to save their lives withinan hour or so of being born.
Horses couldn't have babieslike we do, little helpless,
young, because they are preyanimals and they're flight
animals.
They rely on being able to movequickly to be able to get away,
and so I think that that traitdeveloped, along with the fact
that they're just amazing superlearners, they learn things
really, really fast, and I knowthat they don't stop learning.
The oldest horse that I've everpersonally worked with is 30.
I've got her in my herd now.

(36:02):
But my herd because yeah, Idon't sell horses, and so the
reason I have 14 horses isbecause the majority of them are
geriatric.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Oh, that's you know.
I have seven.
I have seven, four that areseniors for sure.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
And I mean that thing , that thing that when they say
that we're training our horsesevery time we interact with them
, you may have heard that sayingthat's true.
I mean Buck Brenneman.
He's got a really good quoteand I can't remember exactly how
it goes, but basically it'salong the lines of no, there's
no such thing as a push-buttonhorse.
You don't get training thatsticks.

(36:35):
It takes about two weeks forthem to reset your level of
horsemanship.
And, and so I mean that marehad been with me for a good 10
years.
She went away for three months.
She came back and it didn'ttake very long.
It took just a few sessions andshe was light again.
But she had learned that it wasokay to lean on the halter or
someone someone was was leadingher if she didn't want to go and

(36:57):
um, and that was a conversationthat she and I never um had to
deal with.
It never came up, pretty, fastbecause of timing, you know, and
the person she was with was alovely girl, but she was just a
little bit inexperienced and, um, she didn't realize that it's
the release that teaches, and soshe'd started getting into tug
of wars with this strong-mindedmare who then learned that it

(37:18):
was okay to pull.
So she learned that since 25.
But she's 30 now.
She's the paddock mate of mynew horse, bashir, and this
whole thing that I've been doingwith teaching, with the saddle
and everything she's beeninvolved because she's there and
she's very quickly becameclicker savvy.
I hadn't done any clickertraining with that particular

(37:38):
horse, not specifically, but shevery quickly picked it up and
she knows about parking andtargeting because for me to
interact with him I needed herto keep out the way and I didn't
want to just exclude herbecause she was enjoying it.
I mean, she was lighting up,she was really enjoying it.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Isn't it fun?
Yeah, yeah, exclude her becauseshe was enjoying it.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
I mean, she was lighting up, she was really
enjoying it and so fun, yeah,yeah.
So she goes and stands on thepedestal with her front feet no,
because it's waits for a drink,no, and I can do a thing with
him and then I can go over andreward her.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
But but yeah, they definitely don't stop and they
do mirror each other.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah, oh, they do that, they do she's.
She's an emotional supporthorse for him when he first
moved in and they're really goodfriends.
But, yeah, they never stoplearning and I think it's
important that we do keepteaching them things because it
keeps us.
No, no, we keep new informationkeeps you alive, it's good.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah, no, that's, that's really cool.
All right, all right.
Then the other.
The question I had is I've beenwithout a riding horse for four
years.
Um, my, my heart horse, my oldMorgan, um, you know, finally
died and um, that was rightaround.
Uh, the pandemic was start, youknow, kind of 2019, right.
So the pandemic was sort ofstarting and, um, horses got to

(38:53):
be super expensive becausepeople were home, you know.
So everyone was trying to buy ahorse.
Um, I couldn't afford a horseand uh, then I did get ahold of
a little Arab mare, um, at apretty good price, but she'd had
a lot of trauma and, um, uh, anunhappy, anxious horse, and I
don't blame her at all, but Idid.
I was kind of learning about umwork.

(39:17):
She learned some things but Ididn't really, uh, grasp it.
I was going too fast and Ithought I'll just get on this
horse, ride her bareback, then,you know, start her over, cause
she shut down.
You know, bareback with ahalter, and um, she let me know
really clearly that somethinghurt or something was really
wrong.
She bucked me off.
I broke my pelvis in threespots.
Um took me a while to heal, um,so that was a lesson in

(39:37):
humility and patience.
So I found a home for her.
She's now a broodmare andnobody rides her and she's very
happy, but anyway, cause she wasreally well bred.
So, anyway, for years I didn'thave a riding horse and then,
just a few months ago, um, uh,you know I'm a person of faith
and this uh, um, I believemiracles can happen.

(39:58):
And this Morgan Gelding cameinto my hands Right and um, he's
really well-trained, he'scoming 19.
So he's certainly been there,done that, and he was shown when
he was younger.
He's been cared for his wholelife by loving people.
You know how lucky is thatRight.
So he's, uh, but um, there was,and they were honest.
The sellers were honest with me, it's just I didn't have an
understanding of what they weretalking about, but he's a

(40:18):
cribber, and I didn't know whatthat was because I've never.
I mean, I think, oh, that justmeans you choose on wood.
But those are two differentthings, and I didn't know what
cribbing was and for, for ourlistening audience, cribbing is
where a horse will, um, puttheir teeth over, um, a section
of wood or something that theycan get a grip on and suck in
air and like like this, and, uh,there's a lot of uh discussion

(40:42):
about whether that's harmful forthem or whatever, but really
what it does is releasesdopamine in the brain, and so
it's a habit, like a childsucking their thumb or somebody
twiddling their hair to releasestress or any number of things
that we do as humans.
You know, people becomeaddicted to things, so it's sort
of an addictive behavior, andso then the question is is it

(41:03):
causing them harm?
Does they get ulcers from it?
You know whatever?
So, but I was reading moreabout it.
The horse has in a history ofulcers.
He's, he's, he's fine, he's not.
He's eating well, so he's notlosing weight.
He's fine, he's not.
He's eating well, so he's notlosing weight.
He's got freedom and forage andfriends, which are really
important horses.
He had that where he was.

(41:24):
Uh, the reason he picked upcribbing at all is when he um
was younger and had to beconfined to a stall for a short
time and and that that's wherehe picked up the stereotypical
behavior, um, and then it justnever went away.
So I'm not blaming anybody.
You know, this was just acircumstance.
My other horses are not copyinghim at all, I don't have to
worry.
You know, my young horsesaren't going to become cribbers.

(41:46):
He's not even hurting the fence, you know.
So it's like he just kind of Iworry for him if it affects his
teeth and stuff.
But Warwick Schiller just saidrecently about this cribbing
that I'm all anxious about it.
Right, like I'm almostembarrassed, like, oh my gosh, I
have a horse that cribs and I'msupposed to like be this great
horse person who you know thehorses aren't suffering and
everything.
Everybody's happy here.

(42:07):
You know Well a he didn'tdevelop the behavior here and B
Warwick said it's just a lessonin patience.
It's like, oh well, acceptance,oh well, you know, don't go.
I mean, I've never was going toput a cribbing collar on him,
or do things to make him stop,because that's just going to
frustrate him, you know.
But but it was also a.

(42:27):
He's wonderful in a hundredmillion ways.
This is the one thing we got toput up with, you know, but it
bothers me still.
Look out the window and there heis, you know and I just wish
that it will like diminish overtime, especially when we can
open up the big pastures andthere's there's no wood there,
but it's got so much grass.
But with horses that can sufferfrom laminitis and the rich

(42:49):
grass here, we're extremelycareful in the spring, so we
have to wait, but he does havehay 24, seven, you know.
I mean, he's got food in frontof him all the time.
Um, so it's just a matter oflike accepting him who he is.
Yeah, so any thoughts on thatand stereotypical behaviors that
you're not causing, like you'vetaken away the things that
cause confinement, or you know?

Speaker 2 (43:11):
well, horses that they tend to be sort of pattern
animals.
You know they pick up patternsof behavior and, um yeah,
funnily enough, like cribbing,is not something we see much
here in new zealand, becausemost of our horses are kept
outside and mine are right yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, which is
great, but, um, but, as you said, no, it was caused by

(43:31):
confinement originally.
It's frustration and, um, andwanting to know, when you can't
do all the natural things thatyou would normally do, you pick
up these stereotypes, you know,um, it's a displaced behavior.
You know it's like sucking yourthumb.
You know it's self-soothingsort of thing and and, yeah, I'm
with warwick, I mean, I dothink it's an exercise in
patience.

(43:51):
I think that I mean, like withany, if you read anything about
addictions, we know that it'snot the substance that is
addictive, it's the need to feelbetter.
You know the dopamine and one ofthe things I found really
interesting, which I read inJack Pagsepp's book Affective

(44:13):
Neuroscience, and Lockie hasspoken, has spoken about he's
touched on it once recently aswell which actually triggered me
to to go and look it up um,quite often with dopamine, you
also get opiates.
No, so dopamine and opiates, no, there is a connection between
the two and and, and you can't Idon't know enough about it to

(44:36):
speak with any sort of yeah,real knowledge on it, but um,
but I do know that withaddictions, um, people just want
to feel better.
They don't necessarily I mean.
I.
I know someone who was addictedto alcohol and she then became
addicted to something worse andshe dropped alcohol like a hot

(45:00):
brick but and?
And she destroyed herselfpretty much, no, no, her brain,
her health, everything.
She found Jesus.
I don't know if, if I cancompare that to switching
addictions, but it was quiteinteresting that it was a lot
easier for her because she wasfinding something that fulfilled

(45:22):
that whole insider.
Yeah, that's wonderful.
So I think, what you'reproviding for your horse.
It's just a matter of, as yousay, patience and let it come
back.
The only horse I actuallypersonally know now that Cribs,
belongs to a friend of mine.
He's the most beautiful, calm,lovely boy in the world and he's
an ex-racehorse from Hong Kong,and so they have a very no, no,

(45:45):
rigid.
They live underground, theylive in apartments and they only
ever come out to race and totrain, and that's it Right.
And yeah, he still does it, youknow, and for him it's a habit,
it's like picking up a cigarette.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
No, he just doesn't.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Just, I don't think it's hurting, you know, I don't
think, and I, when I've spoke tomy vets, they don't seem to
think that it's a physical no,no thing, no to worry about too
much.
So so, yeah, I'm with you.
Like you say, enjoy, I mean the.
The journey is the destination.
So we learn all these things aswe go along, right, no, yeah,
yeah not to be said, for thatpatience lots to be found in

(46:24):
there, so I'm glad you'reenjoying it.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yeah, and I'm sorry that you lost your heart horse,
and congratulations on your newhorse yeah, well, it is a it's a
miracle to me to have a horseto ride again because, yeah, I,
you know I hadn't ridden in solong and I have seven horses,
you know.
So it's not.
But there's like there wasthree older rescue mares that we
had for years and they're justwith through, finally, they're
dying off as they get older, youknow, so old that they finally

(46:47):
die.
But you know, I made acommitment to them and they came
lame, they came so you couldnever ride them.
So they're just our beautifulcompanions and we love them, you
know.
And then the three young horsesright who are too young to ride.
So that's just a matter ofpatience and time.
And then to get this, this, youknow, amazing gift, practically
, of this guy who's like, justlike, up game, let's go for a

(47:10):
trail ride, let's go do this,let's go do that, who seems to
enjoy my company, who was wellloved, I mean, I just love that.
His people loved him, you know.
And the girl that who placedhim with me knows he's safe.
You know what a gift for her,like she, you know safe?
Yeah, because she just couldn'tkeep him any longer, and so I
said I'm just hanging on to himfor you.
You know the time in your lifecomes and you can have him back,

(47:30):
talk to me.
But anyway, he's safe and he'slovely and his name is Teddy,
talk to me.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
But anyway, he's safe and he's lovely and his name is
Teddy.
Oh, he's gorgeous yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yeah, okay.
Well, I think it's time to weget to the point where we I sent
you a list of questions and Ican I got these questions that
work Schiller does this in hispodcast, which I greatly admire,
but he got these questions froma book called Tribe of Mentors
by Tim Ferriss.
So we want to make sure we givecredit to that, but I love what
he was doing, so I'm totallycopying what?

(48:00):
Copying that quick workSchiller's story.
He was in.
He was only he lives inCalifornia now, but he was only
yeah what 80 miles away from mebecause he was at the Minnesota
Horse Expo this weekend and Iwas like trying to work up my
courage to go because I thought,oh, I could actually go to his
booth and say hello.
And then I decided, you know,I'm not going to do that, I was

(48:22):
too nervous, so I didn't Hold ona second.
I opened a program by accidentmy cat is walking all over my
keyboard and it opened up AdobePhotoshop and he's trying to do
some work here, and now she'schewing on my fingers, little

(48:46):
Iris, here.
Okay, so getting back to thequestions, there's 20 questions
and I had you pick out five thatyou wanted me to ask her and or
ask you, and so one of thefirst questions is what book
would you recommend and why?

Speaker 2 (49:02):
well, I love books, I love reading, I work in
publishing.
I think it's so important, andand I I mean that's a whole
podcast in itself as well, isn'tit?

Speaker 1 (49:10):
but oh yeah, we did.
Uh, we just did a podcast onMargaret Henry.
Do you familiar with MrShingleton?
Yeah, king of the Wind, just soinspired me.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
King of the Wind, yeah, so we just did a podcast
on Margaret Henry.
Are you familiar with MistyShingleton?
Oh, I love it.
Yeah, king of the Wind.
Just so inspired me.
King of the Wind, yeah, so Galwrote a book.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
You have to check out Susan Friedland, our last
podcast.
Susan Friedland wrote a bookabout Margaret Henry.
So yes, books for sure.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Fantastic.
Yeah Well, right now, I meaneven within reach.
You know, I've got this onehere and I have that book.
I mean there's so many great,great books, but the one so for
those that you can't see.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
She held up through horsemanship with feel.
And that is Tom Dorrance andLeslie Deasman.
And I tell you I read thatyears ago and it was really hard
to get through because it'ssome very complex ideas, right.
And then I read it again justrecently with my new
understanding of attunement andfeel because you mentioned, feel

(50:04):
quite a bit, yeah, and it's,there's so much there.
Of course, leslie's wonderfulTom Dorrance is gone now, but
all of the all of the peoplethat are like Warwick Schiller
and others credit, you know, tomDorrance an awful lot, you know
like.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
This one's Bill Dorrance's brother.
Bill Dorrance, forgive me.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
Yes, I meant yeah, tom and Bill Dorrance together
and Leslie Demon, of course.
Right, so that's a great book.
Let's say that name again foreveryone, because some people
won't be watching the video.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
So True Horsem, phil bill dorrance and leslie desmond
um, yes, but I would alsoprobably the books.
That would be the first one Iwould recommend for anyone to
read.
Because, same with you, when Ifirst read this I had I I needed
to teach myself how to speakcowboy.
I didn't know what they weretalking about.
What do they mean, you know?

(50:53):
Yeah, no, exactly to understandit comes better, but what I,
the book I most recommend now isactually Warwick's one.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
Oh yes, warwick's new book yes.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Yeah, and the reason I recommend that is because it's
truth in packaging.
It's in the title theprinciples of training.
The book is about principles,not technique and, if you think
about it, most of the learningwe do around horses is all
technique-based.
I mean, when I was a littlegirl, it was about learning to
ride and it was heads up, heelsdown, hands, no shoulders back.

(51:24):
It's all about positioningyourself and skill building as
such.
But I think that principles andconcepts are so much more
important and, um, I mean,probably the thing that that
made you notice me is that, um,I understand concepts and

(51:45):
principles really well and Idon't really pay that much
attention to the technicalities.
I don't mind, I mean, I justthink of the concepts I
mentioned before that I seetaming and training as two
different things.
When I cross the threshold fromtaming into training, when my
horse now trusts me and he'scurious and he's ready, you know
I will use whichever techniqueis the best one for that horse

(52:07):
in that moment, at that time I'ma mixed methodologist.
I don't just only do one thing,I don't show anything.
No, I think everyone's got alittle piece of the truth, even
by accident.
There's something to learn fromsomebody, and I think that
Warwick's book talksspecifically to the principles
and I think that that is soimportant and it's beautifully
written, it's very clear andit's not a hard read.

(52:30):
You can get through it and Ithink that there's a lot to be
learned in there.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, principles.
So Warwick Schiller'sprinciples.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
What's the name of the book?
Again, warwick Schiller'sprinciples of principles of
training.
Principles of training.
Okay, excellent book, all right.
All right, what has been yourbiggest failure and how has it
helped you?

Speaker 2 (52:49):
Oh gosh, I've had so many.
Well, one thing about failureis no, that's how we learn right
.
We make mistakes, and I'll tellyou about my horse, ethel.
This was in my late 20s and shewas homebred clydesdale
thoroughbred cross 17, two handsabout six years old.
At the time now, when I wasyoung and before I learned

(53:11):
better, I thought there were twosorts of horses the horses that
go and the horses that don't go.
I liked horses that go.
I worked in the racing industry.
All of the horses I had wereArab or thoroughbred derivatives
.
I liked point and shoot.
I didn't know how to motivate astubborn horse.
I don't like hitting horses.
I've never wanted to do that,but I didn't know anything else
to do with a horse that wasn'tmotivated because I hadn't

(53:34):
bought anything else, and so Iwould choose horses that go.
The thing is, when you breed ahorse, you don't know who you're
going to get.
You can go for all thetendencies and the breeding, but
every individual is born withevery single individual person,
all animals, you know, we're allourselves first.
You know, and Ethel didn'treally like to go, not in
general.
She'd be good as long as shewas into it.
You know, and Ethel, um, didn'treally like to go, and not in

(53:56):
general, she'd be good as longas she was into it, you know.
But if she decided no, she'djust go.
No, I, I'm, I'm not going to goand so I would come across this
.
You know, if I wanted to rideout sometimes, if I was trying
to lead her away from her herd,um, no, various things where she
would eject and I would getthis.
I don't want to go forwardsanyhow.
It came to a head when Icouldn't get her onto a trailer,

(54:17):
or we call them horse floatshere, and there was a man who
was advertising that for $300,he would come and spend as much
time as it takes to get yourhorse into a horse float and he
would give you a schedule ofthings to do for seven days and
he would guarantee your horsewould load every time for the

(54:40):
rest of his life, otherwise hewould come back and he would
resolve the problem for you.
And $300, one price.
That was his promise, you know.
So I thought, great, okay, I'mgoing to pay this guy.
And he came out and he was agood horseman.
And he was a good horseman.
He actually was a good horseman.
He had an idea, but it wasn'tlike yeah, it was the first

(55:02):
glimpse into a different way ofdoing things for me.
Well, not the first glimpse,but he showed me something
different.
The principle he was workingwith we were talking about
principles before is choosewhere you um, um, choose where
you work and choose where yourest, and?
Um, make the right thing easyand the wrong thing difficult.
No, now, both of those areprinciples which have their

(55:24):
place, and for this particularhorse, they were the correct
principles because she was notscared.
No, I mean.
Pretty much any problem youhave with the horse is always
going to come down to one ofthree things.
It's that basic, honestly.
It's either a trust or safetyconfidence issue no, the horse
is scared.
Or the horse doesn't understand.
It's a communication issuewe're not being clear enough, or

(55:45):
we haven't taught them wellenough, so they don't understand
us yet.
Or it's a leadership issue.
The horse just doesn't see whythey should do it.
They don't have any reason tobelieve that you're a good
leader and when I say leader,I'm not talking about dominance.
I mean that is one factor.
It is definitely a factor, butthat's not what I mean.

(56:09):
What I mean is you're the bestprovider of safety.
You make the best decisions.
You always make them feelbetter.
You have proven yourself to besomeone that's worth trusting
and believing in and saying yesto.
You know that's where you getthose yes answers that we look
for.
So, um, anyway, this guy, he hadgreat feel and timing, he had
her loading very, very quicklyand he, he showed me what to do,
you know.
And and um, he said I want youto do this for seven days and no

(56:33):
, let me know if you have anyproblems.
So the first day it was easy.
I just went out there, I senther out on a circle and she went
straight into the float greatgame over, you know.
The second day we had to do afew more circles and that was
fine.
The third day she said no, andof course this was that same
thing about just no horses thatdon't want to go, and me

(56:53):
thinking that she's one of thosetypes of horses and she
wouldn't go.
And so I went to try and moveher shoulder over.
I didn't have any skills ortechnique.
I had been taught, I'd beenshown what to do Didn't mean
that I could do it.
So I went to try and yield hershoulder and she stood side on
to me.
She looked at me with one eye,she flattened her ears and stood

(57:18):
side on to me.
She looked at me with one eye,she flattened her ears and, like
a snake, she turned and sheattacked and she flew at me.
I ran into that horse float sofar.
She had me loaded like that.
It was amazing activeleadership from her and it was
terrifying.
In that instant, everythingchanged for me in my life.
It was I've never, ever, had ahorse look at me as though they
wanted to kill me before.
She was deadly serious and andshe knew it, I knew it

(57:39):
everything had changed 17 handsof horse that had suddenly
realized that she didn't have todo what I said.
No, I challenged her and Ididn't have the skills to be
able to do it.
So yeah, oh I.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
I can relate for sure , that's how I got thrown.
I'd never been thrown in mylife, not like that.
Yeah, no absolutely terrifying.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
And, um, I, I, luckily I could get out the
jockey door and I got, and she,she had chased me into the
trailer, which is quite funny.
She, she backed out and I gotthe end of the rope all the way
back to the to the paddock.
She was trying to bite me.
She was going for my shoulders.
No, like she actually lifted meat one point.
She meant business.
Like she was trying to bite me.
She was going for my shoulders.
She actually lifted me at onepoint.
She meant business.
She was furious.

(58:19):
So I put her behind the firstgate that I could find that
would do and I was shattered.
I was devastated.
I could not.
All of my confidence, justeverything that I thought I knew
was out the window.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
Oh, I'm so understanding this.
That's how I felt after I gothurt.
I understand, yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
Yeah, yeah, it was dreadful.
So I went home, I cried, I toldRoger, he, he, no, we, we rang
the man and he and he said,right, I'll come back.
So.
So he came back over and heasked me can you just show me
what happened?
And so I didn't want to go near.

(58:59):
Yeah, very tentatively, Ipicked up the rope and asked her
to move her shoulder and sheimmediately flattened her knees.
He says that's fine, it's fine,I'll do it from here.
He had no problem.
She immediately did it for him.
You know, and I didn't resolveit with that horse, you know he
could get her to to load I.
I was now completely um, I wasfrightened of her.
It was um, I, I felt out of mydepths.
I didn't have the skills.
It was horrific, you know, itwas really bad.
I understand it shakes yourconfidence.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
Yeah yeah, that's yeah.
I felt out of my depth.
I didn't have the skills.
It was horrific.
No, it was really bad.
Oh, I understand, it shakesyour confidence, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
But the big lesson in this is, for me, is it sounds
quite unrelated to start with,but the thing is don't believe
what people say about otherpeople's horsemanship, and just
go to the source and find outfor yourself.
See, the thing is, all myanswers came to me about 10

(59:41):
years later, when I hurt my backand when I started
investigating the groundwork andlearn, putting the time into
learning how to do that properly.
You know, um, the people atthat stage, it was such little
natural horsemanship or anything.
It wasn't traditional.
No, no one was talking aboutoperating condition.
No one knew any of that stuff.
But, um, back then, no, no, Ididn't have many options.
The options I did have there was, um, a book by Monty Roberts

(01:00:05):
about join up, yeah, and I had advd that I'd picked up in some
strange place from an Australianguy called Neil Davies.
It was called a breakthroughfor breaking in and he would
start a horse in the round penwithin 20 minutes.
No, and this is the video ofhim showing that process.
Both of those things I hadcompletely stuffed up trying to
do them, just by trying to learnthem remotely.

(01:00:27):
You know right, this is one ofthese things which I don't 100%
agree with is that we're notalways the best trainer for our
horse Sometimes.
Which I don't 100% agree withis that we're not always the
best trainer for our horse.
Sometimes we need to be trainedas well.
You know, and I do think, thatwe need hands-on help.
Occasionally, when I was tryingto learn remotely, with
absolutely no support whatsoever, I didn't have the feel or the
timing to be able to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
No, that's true.
Yeah, no, I have a helper that.
Yeah, I get it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
You have to develop it.
You know, yeah, yeah, I get it.
You have to develop it.
You know you have to develop it.
And the thing is, the systemthat would have saved me and
ethel from that dreadfulincident is um I, I wasted 10
years of my life in my physicalpeak, in my lifetime endeavor,

(01:01:12):
because I believe someone thatsaid, oh, don't do Pirelli,
that's really rubbish, you know,and I'm not wanting to bang on
about them so much, but that waswhat started things for me and
that was a springboard intoeverything else.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
You know, no, I get it I thought I knew things and
then I got hurt and I had tolike really learn and take the
time to learn and follow thesteps to you know, take as long
as it takes, and that's hard for, because impatience is my worst
trait, so I get it.
I feel like we must be soulsisters, because I tell you it's

(01:01:46):
terrible.
Okay, the next question is ifyou could send a message to the
world, what would that?
Or do you have a favorite quote, and why?

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Well, the message would be pretty much related to
what we were just talking about.
As a myths methodologist, Ihave got so much value from so
many really diverse people whowould never spend five minutes
with each other.
I think that we need to buildconnections and look for what we
have in common with peoplerather than look for differences
and demonize people.

(01:02:17):
No, oh yes, that.
No, I mean that lost 10 years.
I'll never, ever get that back.
You know, um, I do believe withtime.
I think that time accumulates.
I don't think we spend it, Idon't think we waste it.
I think it accumulates behindus, and time matters because
what we do with our time andwhat we accumulate is what forms
us into the people we are.

(01:02:37):
You know everything and so, umand so to me, I will listen and
look and watch and learn fromjust about anybody.
Um, if someone tells me thatsomeone's terrible, I'm probably
more motivated to go and seethem.
I can't stomach seeing any sortof abuse whatsoever, so I mean

(01:02:59):
I can't do that.
But the whole this thing wehave about othering, other
groups, you know, what worriesme is what held me up for 10
years, for example.
I think positive reinforcementis an amazing thing, I know a
lot of people are put off itbecause they feel so judged by
the people within there, becausethey're not doing it yet.
They don't know how to do itand they don't understand all

(01:03:22):
the terms and no, they're notusing it and so therefore
they're being mean to theirhorses.
I mean, that sort of stuffneeds to stop, because the
message itself is too importantand we do have a lot more in
common.
So I think that that's that.
That's what I would really loveto get out out to the world.
I can't think of a singlesaying that sort of relates to

(01:03:42):
that.
Really, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
I think you're exactly right.
We do need to be more welcomingand learn from each other,
that's that's a good thing.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
I love that.
Go to the source.
You know it's critical thinking.
Isn't critical thinking skillsto actually look at the source?
You know it's critical thinking, isn't it Critical thinking
skills?
Actually look at the sourceitself.
Don't believe what people whodon't support them say.
Go and have a look yourself.
Look at the person, Look attheir horse.
That's the most important thing.
Look at their horses.
Then look at their students andlook at their students' horses.
You know if it's translatableand it's good then there's

(01:04:17):
something there worth learning,you know, right, good, okay, um,
the next question is uh, whatis your relationship with fear?
I love this topic.
There's another whole um, fear.
I'd like to answer in two ways.
The first way is sort of morepractical and the other way is
more sort of philosophical,really.
But, um, I think, well, fear isobviously there to keep us safe
, you know.
It's there for a reason.
I think it's very importantthat we acknowledge it.

(01:04:38):
My relationship over my lifehas been pretty steady with fear
.
I am not a risk taker, I'm avery cautious person.
I really do think quite deeplybefore I know, and, um, I can be
impulsive, but I'm impulsive inin repetitive patterns.
I'm not impulsive, no, like Ican randomly go for repetitive
patterns.
I'm not impulsive.
No, like I can randomly go fora ride right now if someone

(01:04:59):
comes and says so, you know, butI'm not going to go bungee
jumping or anything like that.
No, I'm not a business jump, Idon't take risks.
And so here in New Zealandwe've got a thing called ACC,
which is, instead of suingpeople when you get get hurt,
the government pays for you toget better, and we all pay a tax
on it.
There's a levy.
So every job we have has thisacc levy.

(01:05:20):
The acc levy for horsemanship,for anyone doing anything with
horses, is sky high becausestatistically it's an extremely
dangerous thing to do,especially as a job yeah yeah,
and so I mean the amount of timethat I've spent with horses.
I probably should have beenquite badly hurt.
I was hurt once when I was 13and I was a teenager and

(01:05:43):
reckless, and I fell off a ponyand broke my arm.
That's it.
I've never hurt myself withhorses.
Because I am a coward, I willrun away from anything.
Well, not run away, but if Iget a tingle, I listen to it.
No, you've got to believeyou're fair, and I believe that
first we've got to acknowledgefear.
Secondly, I think if we'rescared of something, we should
treat ourselves the way we treata scared horse Use titration,

(01:06:05):
use approach and retreat, useattunement, use cat H.
It would be cat H for humans, Isuppose.
Yeah, and when your curiosityis up, then take that next step.
If I'm scared to ride my horse,I think, okay, I'm really
scared to ride my horse.
How do I feel about just goingand catching him?
Well, I can do that, that's allright.
What about if I saddle him?
Ah, now his eyes, he's rising.

(01:06:26):
So I will visualize saddlingthat horse until I don't feel
anxious about just knowing in myvisualization.

Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
I'll put the saddle saddle on, taking it straight
off.
Then you go and do that put iton, take it off until that feels
okay and then go to the nextstep.
I understand completely.
I had a breakthrough with thatmare I was telling you about.
I had a real breakthrough withher when I I mentally decided
I'm not going to be afraid ofyou anymore.
You know, like I mean, I willbe cautious and careful, I'm not
going to surprise her or dosomething that puts her over
threshold.
Okay, you know, because then ifshe reacts, that's kind of on
me.
But I made a conscious decisionto literally think and and

(01:07:04):
believe it.
Okay, not fake it, but believeI'm not going to be afraid
anymore, I'm going to breathearound you, I'm going to be
relaxed around you.
I'm making the consciousdecision to have my brain match
my body so I'm not incongruentand make her worry and it's,
it's been really great because,you know, as long as I'm not

(01:07:24):
doing anything foolish thatsends her over threshold, you
know, like something unfair, oryou know, I'm being fair to her
by giving her time Right.
Wow, it's just really nice.
It's like I really like her.

Speaker 2 (01:07:37):
I was going to send her back in the beginning.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
In the beginning I called the breeder and I said I
don't think I can do this.
I'm, I'm so afraid of her.
I've never had a horsethreatened to kick me, you know
that scared me so much, um, butthen we, you know she doesn't
threaten to kick me anymore.
I mean, it's not there anymoreand I, I'm always going to be.
This is a thousand pound horse.
You know I'm not going to befoolish, but I made that.
You know that that the fear wasreally wise in the beginning

(01:08:01):
for that particular horse.
So I, you know that's whyworking through the fence, you
know those kind of things.
but I built confidence and herconfidence at the same time.
We worked through it together,you know.
So, um, learning to accept thatI was afraid.
And then how, like you said,triation to work closer and
closer and closer.
And I'm still going to beprobably my helper, who's a
wonderful attuned.

(01:08:22):
I had her on my podcast.
Her name is Tiffany Stauffer.
She comes and helps me withthis horse and it's just like
you said she's done all the,she's got the gift of the feel
and the whole thing, and theRita just goes oh, it's you.
Okay, you know that will be theone who'll actually get on her
back the very first time we'reworking together, you know,
because I think I would have somuch baggage coming with me that

(01:08:46):
I would make my poor horseanxious.
Thank God I have someone likeTiffany to help me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Okay, well, I mean you respecting your own fear and
your own boundaries.
That means that you aretrustworthy to you.
That means that if you trustyourself, your horse will find
it a lot easier.
It's a circle.
It's a circle of making thoseright decisions, and it's so
important.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
Carry on oh, exactly, exactly, okay.
And then the last question wehave is what is the luckiest
thing that has ever happened toyou?

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
I was born to my mother.
My mother is my absolute hero.
She has been an incredible rolemodel incredible.
She's always supported me.
She's never, ever let me down.
She's sorted me out when I'veneeded sorting out, but she's
never, ever left me to floundertoo much.
And she taught me well.

(01:09:36):
She taught me real values likeloyalty and compassion and
kindness and common sense.
You know, yeah, if it wasn'tfor her empowering me, I don't
think I would be anywhere nearas happy as I am, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
That's wonderful, and she's still with us, then she's
still here.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
Yeah, she is.
Yeah, I'm usually up with herabout twice a week.
She lives about an hour awayfrom me.
Oh, that's right.
She has great days.
She lives with three dogs andshe loves big dogs and when she
had horses she liked big horses.
She used to have Clydesdales,oh that's lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
Well, we're going to say a big hi to Julie's mom.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Hey.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
Julie's mom.
That's wonderful.
I'm glad of it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
Okay, she at least will listen to this.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
There you go.
We'll have one person, sothat's good, that's good,
especially one from New Zealand.
I love it.
So wonderful, okay, um, so then, uh, how, if people wanted to?
Um, oh wait, I'm gonna let youspeak about the book that you're
working on and then after thatwe'll just talk about if someone
wanted to get in touch with you.
What is the best way?
So?

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
let's talk about this book, okay, um, well, I wanted
to write a book about the basicsand, um and like, when I was
working with those wild horses,we were told to just teach them
the basics to catch them, tirethem, lead, trailer, load, do
all the things that are vital,pick up their feet and all that

(01:11:05):
sort of thing.
But what those horses taught me?
Of course, that those aren'tthe basics.
And I started writing this bookand I just wanted to cover
everything.
I learned, all the things thatI would like to have known when
I was starting out.
Um, when I spoke to Warwickabout it and he said the best
thing ever, he just said well,the basics aren't the basics.
The basics are the things thatyou do in order to do the basics

(01:11:28):
.
I mean, that's it, that's mybook, and I'm very pleased he's
given me permission to quote himon that.
You know, so so, um, so, soyeah, but it's a little bit um,
anecdotal.
There's a lot of research, um,um, I've, I've been, I've
learned a lot about myself inthe process of writing it,

(01:11:49):
because, no, I really shouldhave got it out by now.
The book is is written.
I'm just now editing.
I'm down to the last two chatsoh that's wonderful.
Yeah, I've got the wonderfulTanya Kindersley of the Red Mare
.
She has agreed to edit it forme.
She's a very good author.

(01:12:09):
Writer.

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
I have her book.
Yeah, I have her book.

Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
Yeah, she's written about 16 books and she's
ghostwritten books for otherpeople as well.
So hopefully I'm going to behanding into her careful custody
soon and she'll knock it intoshape and make it the best
version of itself.
It can be.
Yeah, and I'll beself-publishing.
For various reasons, I haven'tapproached any publishers.
I think that it's a very nichesort of subject and I'm not well

(01:12:38):
known enough to get into thetype of books that publish those
niche subjects, so I just needto get it out there.
Oh, there's a saying I've justthought of one of the previous
ones um wayne dyer, dr waynedyer, um, he influenced me a lot
, um a long time ago and, uh,one of the things he says is
don't die with your song stillinside you.
No, I do think that this is mysong, and so I'm just getting

(01:12:59):
getting that out there.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
So yeah, that's fantastic.
Okay, and then, if someone hadwanted to, well, first of all we
can find your comments on,which are the.
Which are the pages that youcomment on the most, the
trainers that you, you have yourwonderful insights on on
Facebook, because that's what Ifound probably warrants.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Um, since I've been, since I've been writing the book
, I haven't really been spendingmuch time on Facebook as such,
and I do have a page.
I've got.
I've got a web page and aFacebook page.
I didn't mention them on theform because I'm a bit
embarrassed about them, becauseI've been completely neglecting
them.
No, there's nothing on therewhich is no, there's stuff on

(01:13:39):
there which I've changed my mindabout, for example, but just so
people know, it'sponiesnaturallycom.
Just one wordponiesnaturallycom.

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):
And we'll list this on the show notes.
But if they wanted to email youor something, they could find
you through that website or howwould they contact you?

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
absolutely, or?
Um, my facebook, um page iscalled ponies.
Naturally as well.
I'm also on facebook, just asjulie smart and, and my avatar
always has horses on it, usuallya few of them.
So so that will.
Uh, I'm pretty easy to find.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Oh, you're uh you're a very open, lovely person.
I mean I just reached to youout of the blue and said I got
to have you in my podcastbecause the way you comment and
explain things and I learn fromyou all the time, so I was just
thrilled when you said yes, andthat's probably a good place to
wrap it up.
I'm really grateful you tookthe time with us today and you
were talking to me, as wementioned, from the future,

(01:14:32):
because you're 18 hours ahead ofme.
So here it's Sunday inWisconsin and it's Monday in New
Zealand and I have so much funwrapping my brain around that.
So, you know the future.
Yeah, I really appreciate theinvitation.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
Yeah, Thank you, I appreciate it and I was
surprised, but yeah it.
But yeah, I've enjoyed this.
Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
We're grateful that you were able to come.