Kari Bastyr - Your Dog is Not Bad, He is Just Having a Hard Time S2 E18

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Kari Bastier of Wag &Train, is a dog behaviorist and canine nutritionist. She debunks the dominance theory, showing that dogs act out due to stress and anxiety and not a desire to dominate their owners. Carrie emphasizes the gut-brain connection, sharing stories about Paisley, a chocolate lab, whose behavior issues were improved by a simple change in diet.  

https://www.empathetic-trainer.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien andyou're listening to the
Empathetic Trainer Podcast.
Today's guest is going to be agreat one.
We are so excited to haveCarrie Bastier with us today.

(00:35):
Carrie Bastier is a dogbehaviorist and canine
nutritionist.
She's the founder of WagonTrain Animal Behavior Specialist
.
Her training methods take intothe account the whole dog,
including emotions, behavior andtheir effects on the gut-brain
axis.
Carrie doesn't believe dogs arebad.
She just thinks they're havinga hard time.

(00:56):
That's the whole conversationright there, isn't it hey?

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Carrie, so glad to have you with us.
Hi, thank you so much.
It's good to see you this isgreat Boy.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
I already have so many questions right off the bat
.
I'm just trying to understand.
So first, though, let's talk alittle bit about your background
, kind of who you are, how yougot into you know, were you born
with it, Like it seems almostall of us were.
Why dogs over anything else?
Or is there a whole other setof animals you're crazy about
too?
Let's just kind of start withlittle Carrie.
Let's figure that out.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Well, I I wasn't really born into this.
I didn't really have the itch.
When I was a kid we had dogsand my family are dog lovers,
but I wanted to go into film andthat didn't work out.
I just realized it's way tooexpensive to go into film, so I
switched to what mostly mostpeople probably switch to is

(01:49):
psychology and that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
I want to.
I want to be in the industry.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
The film industry, but I'll be a psychiatrist.
I'll just go into that.
So the program that I went tohad a behavior analysis program
in my undergrad at St CloudState.
The program is still there, butthe track that I took they had
a rat lab and I loved it.

(02:15):
I loved working with the ratsand doing the experiments and I
decided to go to grad schoolbecause they had a animal
behavior grad program and I ranthe rat lab.
I was the graduate assistantand I I just soaked it all in
and at the same time I wasworking for as a dog trainer,

(02:39):
for a veterinarian and his bestfriend was the head of the
veterinary animal behaviordepartment at the university of
minnesota, rk anderson and oh,I'm familiar yep, yes, he
invented the gentle leader and Ilearned so much from him and I
just decided, wow, I really lovethis.

(03:01):
I I you know really, um, youknow, it speaks to me.
Um, our Dr Anderson was a verygentle dog trainer and ahead of
his time, you know, ahead of histime, yeah, and so I continued
teaching classes for thisveterinarian and, um, I was

(03:21):
lucky enough for Dr Anderson tobe my mentor, and the rest is
history.
So I started, I started my ownbusiness and moved to Denver,
and, yeah, that's how it allhappened.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
And now you're back where In Minneapolis?

Speaker 2 (03:38):
I'm from Minneapolis and what I'm told is everyone
moves back to Minneapolis.
So I moved to Denver for 15years and moved back after some
health challenges.
So I love it here.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
this is my home yeah, well, I mean, who doesn't love
the winters here?
I'm in Wisconsin of course whodoesn't, who doesn't love the
winters?
Why wouldn't we come back?

Speaker 2 (03:57):
I know, you know well , they're the same in Colorado,
pretty much just at higheraltitude Right and it's very
pretty there, yes, okay, well,let's some of my notes here.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Sorry, some of my notes here.
Lizzie, my producer, writes sobeautifully for me.
Let's talk about dog dominanceand that theory debunked.
So, dog dominance theorydebunked.
Let me go back just briefly.
Um, you know, I've been workingwith animals with my animal
actor agency since 87, a longtime, but I'm old enough to
remember very dominant methodsof dog training.

(04:33):
And you know, um, yes, evenwitnessing a dog being hung up,
you know, on a choke chainbecause it was aggressive to
another dog and they hung it upto choke off its air, which you
know as a, as a young person, Iknew that was abhorrent.
But, yes, um, you know, youjust, you don't have any power.
You didn't think you had anypower at that point, but I knew
that isn't the route I wanted totake yeah, and then being an

(04:55):
animal actor trainer.
Of course everything has to bethe most fun games, the most you
know, whatever.
So we don't have to play thatever.
We we didn't Correct, but still, sometimes dogs will come in
for auditions and you'll haveowners that you can really read,
that they are, you know, therewill be marching you know, and
it's really dominant and it's sodisheartening because the dogs

(05:19):
are trying so hard.
Like you said, they're having ahard time, so maybe we could
talk about that.
Um, one of the points is dogsare definitely not out for world
domination.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Cats are.
Let's start.
Cats are definitely out forworld domination.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yes, I love cats.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
I train cats too.
They're um, they're a littlebit more difficult but, um, I do
work with cats but yeah, I dogsdon't want to be.
You know, they're not out forworld domination and and I think
that's a big part of where youknow the, the dominance trainers

(05:57):
think that they have to bedominant over their dog or over
a dog that they're training.
But dominant dogs are actuallyvery calm and stable.
My last dog, paisley, waspretty, she was really dominant
and she was just chill.
She just she didn't have to,really, you know, um, tell dogs

(06:18):
anything, once in a while alittle snark, but um, she was
really chill and puppies knewthat she was in charge and other
dogs knew just by the, by herpresence and I never, ever had
to use a heavy hand for her, nordo I have I ever for any other
dog.
But um when people call me andthey say, oh, my dog is really
dominant and is doing this, Iautomatically know okay, their

(06:43):
dog's having a hard time,they're reactive, maybe they bit
someone.
They think that's dominantbehavior, but it's not.
It's actually the opposite.
It's insecure.
The dog's insecure, fearful,anxious, just having a hard time
and trying to communicate itsneeds.
But it's being read as dominant.
Dominance in dog training isstill extremely pervasive.

(07:06):
It's very prevalent on socialmedia it's prevalent.
You can Google dog training anda lot of the trainers are
dominance-based trainers.
Let's explain for our audiencethat may not know what we mean
by dominance-based trainingversus other types um, well, it

(07:29):
started back in the 1970s, um, awolf researcher, animal
researcher, dr david meck,hypothesized, after watching
captive wolves, that there isthis dominance hierarchy and um,
it's, you know.
So it was a really big study.
Um, but it wasn't in a yes andum it's a whole thing.

(07:54):
Um, but it was in captivewolves, it wasn't in wild wolves
.
And you know, his hypothesis atthe time was that, um, dogs and
families were like that and Idon't know, I think a couple
weeks or a couple months laterhe, you know, came out and said
whoopsies, that's not true, andthis was in the early 70s, I

(08:18):
think 1973.
Yeah, um, and at that time too,we know this from Dr Ian Dunbar
that a lot of podcast guests, Iguess.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, pretty great.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah.
So he before before Dr IanDunbar, kind of came on the
scene.
You know, people didn't thinkthat puppies could be trained
earlier than six months and he,dr Dunbar, totally blew that out
of the water.
Now we know better, right, butthis, this dominance in dog
training, has been around for areally long time.

(08:55):
And Dr Mack came, you know, hecame out and said, nope, it's
not true.
And it's still really pervasive, unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Well, it happened in the horse world too.
A very similar pattern I meandominance of horses has been
going on forever.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
But they, you know, when people talk about the
horses, some people will be like, well, you can't let him push
you around or you can't let himdominate you.
Now, of course, there's safetyissues he's a thousand pounds
but the more recent, hopefullygrowing, trend is the horse.
Everything he's doing andLockie Phillips talks about this
is communication right.

(09:36):
So, everything the dog istelling you.
The dominant dog you know airquotes is telling you something,
right?
So they study horses in thewild.
I'm sorry they've studiedcaptive herds of horses, you
know, like horses that areboarding bar right and they go
like there's a lead horse andhe's in charge of everybody.
You know this kind of like whatDavid Meeks story, the wolf

(09:58):
guys premise there's dominance,dah, dah, dah.
Well, in horses in the wildthey found it to be completely
different.
Um, there's not always thisfight for leadership.
It's not the stallion always.
You know, it's a fluid.
It's a fluid rolling patternwith horses because, uh, captive
, well, horses not captive.
But you know, horses living in aman-made environment are going

(10:19):
to react differently becausethere's fighting over resources,
fighting over water you knowthere's family, yeah, and then
they're not in the family groups, and then, uh, they can only
graze so much, but horses in thewild have all the acreage to
move around and not get in eachother's space if they don't want
to, you know, so I mean, it's awhole different thing and, uh,
there's an awakening in thehorse world about understanding
and communicating with horses awhole lot better.

(10:39):
You know, warwick schiller,lockie, phillips, um terry lake
yes, several of our podcastguests are really getting the
word out, and I hope that we cancontinue to get the word out
about dogs too, which is why Ilove that expression.
How you know, we don't thinkdogs are.
You don't think dogs are bad,it's just they're having a hard
time.
You're not putting humanattributes on a dog's behavior

(11:01):
when he's acting like a dog.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yes, and trying to communicate his or her needs,
and they're so misinterpreted.
And that's where the dominancecomes out.
Is we, we do we putanthropomorphize and we put our
human emotions on the dog andtry and make them submissive.
You know, because we're the allyou know powerful when all

(11:23):
they're trying to do is say hey,I'm a little scared right now.
Can you help me?

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Exactly.
Yeah exactly so.
Then one of the other points isthe majority of people who have
dogs use the terms dominance ordominant incorrectly, and
that's kind of what you'respeaking to just now.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Correct, yeah, know, correct, yeah.
Dominance is, like I said, calm, stable, stable brain chemicals
or neurotransmitters, becausethe neurotransmitters are
produced in the gut too.
I'm sure we'll get to that.
Yes, and then being dominant isusually for dogs.

(12:04):
When that's interpreted as adog who's dominant, it's usually
a scared, insecure, fearful,anxious dog.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Isn't this interesting?
I just said they're not likepeople, but they are mammals and
we're mammals.
Yeah, if we think about a bullysomeone who we consider a bully
.
He's trying to be dominant, buta lot of times if you look
deeper, you know the theparadigm is uh, not um, what's
wrong with you, but whathappened to you right, so then
you know the paradigm like whyare you being a bully?

(12:34):
what?
What is this insecure?
You know what is this notfeeling good about?
Because the leaders we aredrawn to naturally are, you know
, relaxed, calm people thatregulate re-legulate sorry sorry
, regulate themselves well andthen inspire um other people to
want to be with them, and so a adog, that is calm, like you're
saying.

(12:54):
Um would would be other, itwould be the.
So in theory, is he sort oflike a pack leader or we're not
even talking pack leader thingsanymore.
Like things are different.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Things are different.
We're not really talking.
We're not.
We don't use like pack leader,you know, leader in general,
because they do imply kind ofthe dominant space.
Okay, so then tell me, about afamily dog.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Just explain a family dog, you know, like, how does
this work?
Okay, so I'll give you anexample in my own life.
Just because I've got a boardof collies and a collie mix,
right, and my oldest one, who's15 now, when we first got him,
my oldest child was 12 or 13.
So he didn't have a lot ofexposure to babies.

(13:37):
Okay, because my boys arealready older.
And so then when I startedhaving grandchildren

(14:02):
no-transcript, this is not fairto you, dear dog.
You know, when baby's loose,we'll have you be in your safe
place, because they're cratetrained and baby can't bother
you there, you know.
And so to be fair to that dog,right, but so he's not a
dominant dog.

(14:23):
He's not trying to push thatbaby around.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Right, he's just like anxious.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
What is this thing coming towards me that I'm just
not right.
Is that kind of what happened?

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah, yeah, he was trying to express his needs and
he was uncomfortable and scaredprobably, and cause the baby's
at the same level.
And you know he just was sayingback off like get out of my
space.
And that's a.
It's a very appropriate warning, but a lot of people interpret

(14:54):
that as the dog trying to bedominant.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Okay, all right, yeah .
And then the last comment onthat part was most people think
dominance means aggression, butlet's just take that apart.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Well, just like I was saying before, when I get calls
that my dog is being dominantor I have such a dominant dog, I
automatically know well thatdog's not dominant, that dog's
fearful or insecure or anxious,but those behaviors are
attributed what we think.
Those people think, like myclients because of this whole
dominance theory, that that'swhat dominance looks like.
Okay, and when I explain that'snot it, you know, then they're,

(15:34):
then they want to learn, okay,so then what?

Speaker 1 (15:37):
what is it?
Is it reactivity, then, or youknow what?
So I'll be like, okay, Iunderstand.
So they have a dog and he'sdoing whatever, and I'll go like
, okay, then what is it?
But what are we going to be?
Is, okay, I understand, so theyhave a dog and he's doing
whatever, and I'll go like, okay, then what is it?
But what are we going to be?
Is there each dog different, ofcourse, or like what's the most
common thing, when a dog is,when we misinterpret as trying
to be dominant, what is hereally trying to tell us?
And then how can we best helphim?

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Well, it's an emotion or series of emotions.
You know, a lot of times dogsgive us signals way, way before
the bark, snap, snarl, bite yeahjust like horses they're called
calming signals and most people, you know, don't know how to
interpret them.
Tongue flicking, lip licking,yawning is a big one, shaking

(16:25):
off, doing a little head turn.
That dog's trying tocommunicate.
You know, I'm uncomfortableright now.
Maybe you can dial it down anotch.
But then when those calmingsignals aren't interpreted
correctly or just totally, youknow, glossed over, then it
might become the growl or thesnarl, you know and then
unfortunately, some dogs thenhave to resort to the snark or
the nip or the snarl, you know,and then, unfortunately, some

(16:45):
dogs then have to resort to thesnark or the nip or the bite,
and that I mean that dog is justhaving a hard time.
The dog is fearful, scared,cornered, has some anxiety
issues.
Um, you know, it's just tryingto.
We want to try and supportthose puppies and dogs to build

(17:08):
their confidence, to decreasethat underlying anxiety, to
build more positive associations.
And the biggest thing and thisis what you said that you did
with your dog and yourgrandchildren is you always have
to set your dog up to succeed.
It's the exactly you know thebest way for them to be
successful and not put them insituations you know where.
You have them on the end of aleash and you know they're.

(17:29):
They're barking and lunging andgoing crazy.
That's a really stressed dogand you know we, we have to make
sure that we're supporting themand teaching them to feel safe
and so, working on leashreactivity or, you know, fear of
people or whatever it's like,taking a thousand steps back and

(17:51):
starting from the beginning, atthe root cause, which is
typically anxiety and fear.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Same same exact thing with horses.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Cause the best thing we can do with our horses is to
have them feel safe.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Feel safe, right, and the reason they're reacting is
they do not trust us to keepthem safe correct.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
You know we're not keeping them safe, and so it's
yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Sounds very similar yeah so, um, when we were
getting back, going after covidbecause for when covid came, of
course all of our work as animalactors shut down and, um, uh,
people got a lot of puppiesduring covid.
And now you, we have these yearold, two old, two year old dogs
who just could not besocialized in the typical way at

(18:32):
the time.
Yes, they just so my question.
So they come in for an auditionand they're clearly, even
though we've stated, hey, yourdog, you know, if he's shy, if
he's anxious, he may not likethis, you know, but as they come
in and they, they exhibit allthat, I kind of feel bad for him
because they kind of had kindof had a rough start.
So, is there hope?
I mean, if these people, youknow their dogs are shy, their

(18:54):
dogs haven't been socialized,you know, whatever is there, do
dogs get?
This is, I mean, I probablyknow, but our audience might not
.
Are dogs ever too far gone, tooold, can't be helped?
Or can every dog, with time andpatience and the right you know
, help?
I mean, can we help?

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Oh gosh, that's such a hard question.
I mean, the short answer is yes,it just depends you know, I
mean, the biggest thing is ifyou have a dog and this is
totally individual.
But when you have a dog who is,who has, you know, a multiple
bite history or you know, just,I mean that's probably the only

(19:35):
thing I can think of where, youknow, you know, management is
really the best option.
Changing emotions is, you know,really kind of the key, just
depending on the dog, of course.
But oh yeah, you know the COVIDpuppies, you know, if they
weren't exposed to, you know,certain environments or certain

(19:57):
people and they have a fear.
You know there's a lot we cando to help counter condition
those behaviors and and work ondesensitization and decrease in
that anxiety.
Sometimes it's genetic.
I work with a lot ofgenetically fearful dogs.
But when we, you know, focus on, like I said, counter
conditioning or, you know,improving the microbiome to

(20:17):
increase the neurotransmitterproduction, you know there is a
lot of hope.
Um, it's not especially in ayoung dog, like three years old,
but I've worked with much, mucholder dogs, you know rescue
dogs who are 10, 11, 12, wherewe can do a lot for them and
then we can also protect ourdogs Like.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
This is not a normal situation, but for our animal
actors, actors right if we getdogs into the audition and we're
testing the strobes and strobespop.
So to some dogs, it's the skyexploding.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
You know, all right, they're really smart, they go to
the sky.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
If the dog doesn't like he he we start out way away
from the lights.
But if we get a reaction thatis fearful, we just go.
No, not his thing, it's okay,because there's no reason that
we have to make him do this.
You know what I mean.
Like he's has a happy life.
This is a human thing, doesn'tneed to do it.
But the living in society part,that part we want to help the

(21:13):
dog with.
But you know it's like if yourdog doesn't like jumping in, you
know like doing dock diving orjumping into the water, you know
you're not going to make him doit.
You know at least you shouldn'tmake him do it.
But if you need him to be ableto walk, you know, walk safely,
at a safe distance away frompeople down the street.
This would be a good thing tohelp him with, you know so that
he can be in the world, doesn'thave to be next to anybody, or

(21:37):
certainly doesn't have tointeract with other dogs, but
you don't want that whole thingto be so stressful for them, so
this is how things can helpwhich is a good segue.
So let's let's talk about thisgut brain access.
I've I've only briefly startingto learn about how there's like
two brains, like we have astomach humans too, we have a
brain in our stomach and our gutsomehow, and then our brain and

(21:58):
these things interact and sothat's a whole new world I'm
learning a little bit about.
Hadn't thought about applyingit to the dogs and, of course,
any mammal or however that works.
So, gosh, I know nothing.
Just start us, just like therest of my audience, perhaps
Please fill us in on what thisall means and how we can help.
This is fascinating.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yes, so the whole gut brain axis gut microbiome thing
came about when I had animbalanced microbiome, when I
was diagnosed with celiacdisease, and then I, you know, I

(22:41):
had to heal my gut andobviously I went gluten free,
but there were so many otheraspects to it and then I, you
know, I, just became a gut nerdand started reading a lot of
research and this was 10 yearsago, um, and there's a lot more.
There's a lot more now.
At back then there was, youknow, research, um, research
starting to be done on dog'smicrobiome, and probably the

(23:04):
first thing that I learned isthat puppies inherit the
mother's microbiome, just likehuman babies do.
Okay, and so if a puppy is bornto a mom who's stressed or has,
you know, dysbiosis, which isleaky gut or just an imbalanced
microbiome, that puppy's goingto inherit it so right before we

(23:26):
go on, we go on microbiome.
Please explain for us in theaudience microbiome yeah that's
just the makeup of the, of the,the um, the gut, the ecosystem.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Is it an ecosystem?

Speaker 2 (23:41):
yes, um, and there's good and bad gut bacteria.
When you have an imbalance,typically the bad gut bacteria
takes over the good gut bacteriaand sometimes it causes what's
called dysbiosis or leaky gutsyndrome, okay, where the small

(24:07):
intestine is damaged and hasthose.
The short answer is get umthrough just this imbalanced
microbiome and stress and um,you know, bad bad diet and
environment um develops theselittle tiny holes in the gut and
that's that's the leaky part,and then toxins leak out into
the bloodstream and it causes alot of brain fog, cognitive
dysfunction, anxiety.
It's the same for people.

(24:28):
Yes, and that's why I becamethis gut nerd, because those
were my symptoms.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Wow, that must have been scary at the time?

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yes, it was.
And then my dog was diagnosedwith some health issues and I
went down the gut the dog gutrabbit hole even further and
realized that, you know, one ofher issues at the time was also
leaky gut syndrome or dysbiosis,and which dog are we talking
about?
Paisley, the one that I wastalking about before with um,

(24:58):
she was really dominant dog andshe was she's the best dog I've
ever had.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
Paisley's.
What kind of dog.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Chocolate lab.
Okay, she was a rescue.
I got her at about nine weeks.
She's from the dumb friendsleague in in Colorado.
So, yeah, she was, she waseight and I, just I did a total
diet change, I did supplements,I did like foot baths and a

(25:27):
bunch of stuff that I won't gointo, but, um, I ended up, you
know, really working on her guthealth to build her immune
system also, cause, um, she hada, uh, a blood disorder, um, and
I realized, through moreresearch and, just you know,
kind of going down even more ofthe rabbit hole, that diet plays

(25:49):
a big part in anxiety.
And at the same time this ishuge I realized, read,
researched, whatever that 90% ofserotonin and other
neurotransmitters are producedin the gut.
Only 10% are produced in thebrain.
Wow, so think about it.

(26:11):
Same for people, um, 90% ofserotonin.
Serotonin is theneurotransmitter that regulates
mood.
So if you don't have enoughserotonin, dopamine, gab and
norepinephrine, you're going tobe anxious.
And this is where the lightbulbs.
The light bulb really startedto go on with me and I started I

(26:32):
, you know, I started anutrition certification.
I started working on gut healthwith clients whose dogs have,
you know, pervasive anxiety,these rescue dogs that were so
anxious and I started seeinghuge behavior change.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
Oh no, that's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
So these dogs have trauma you know, and they carry
their trauma because mammalscarry trauma, the same.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
Pretty much.
There must be parallels in thehuman world.
So I'm finding all of thisextremely fascinating.
So what changes had to happenin a dog's diet that you could
see the manifestation of lessanxiety or, you know, more
serotonin being produced?
What would have to havehappened?
Well the first thing is that wewant to.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
We want to focus on healing the gut and there's
several ways to to start thatprocess and it does take a while
, or it can take a while it tookme almost a year to heal my gut
, and probably the same forPaisley, with little changes
Basically well, not basically.
But because it's not basically,the first thing that I would

(27:38):
look at is the food, becausefood affects mood.
I'm not wearing my sweatshirttoday, but I have a sweatshirt
that says that and trying yeah,same for people.
Exactly Just trying to focus ondoing a more minimally processed
diet and adding in fresh foodswhich, in you know the dog world

(28:00):
is like.
You know's a, it's a, it's aparadigm shift.
Right and well right, but it'scurrent.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
It's recent, though, if dog history, if you look at
the long you know, centuries ofus being together with dogs, um
processed dog food is arelatively new it is you know,
in a sense um, you know, Iremember the chuck wagen
commercial you know, the chuckwagen commercial was like canned
dog food.
The Chuck Wagon would rununderneath the covers.
It had horses in it.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
This is why I remember, but um.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
I don't know how long , and I'm not going to trash the
whole industry, but but umcause, there must be something
out there.
But it's a relative.
I mean, you know, is it ahundred years old, 50 years old,
you know, compared to the dogsbeing with people eating what
people ate?
Right, if you had all yourleftovers, whatever you're
eating like my dogs eat every.
You know someone would be likeyou shouldn't give him table

(28:49):
scraps and I'm like, but heloves broccoli.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
Oh my gosh, why wouldn't I give him a carrot,
you know?

Speaker 1 (28:55):
I mean so things that I'm eating, that they can eat,
you know.
I mean we share.
Obviously we're careful whatthey can't have, but or too much
.
But the point is is like theyhave a, they're very, very diet
if they get a chance.
Yes, a dog will choose avariation if he's got access,
yes.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
The one caveat, though, is when I'm dealing with
the highly anxious dog, theytypically don't have an appetite
.
So, oh, that always shocks me.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
You know, we know that's a sign of anxiety at an
audition If they won't take atreat.
That's the first, if theyhaven't reacted in a different
way the fact that they don'twant to take a treat, which is
like you know, it could be somestring cheese or something, just
lamb lunch, something reallyyou know something really good.
I'm like oh okay, he's nothappy.
No, he's fine, he's fine and Igo.
No, I'm sorry he's not histhing.
Thank you maybe when we do videoand there's no strobes.

(29:46):
But you know, I mean I rightaway, that's if I haven't
already seen it, if he hasn'tshown me another way.
First way, because think aboutif you and I are anxious.
Yeah, you know, we get thatsinking feeling in our gut we
couldn't fight or flight.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
We're not meant to eat when we're in fight or
flight right, so a lot of youknow yeah a lot of rescue dogs I
work with are fearful dogs.
Won't eat breakfast, they'llonly eat dinner, or they'll eat
really late at night and theyliterally fast themselves to try
and heal their guts.
Because that's what wolves and,you know, wild dogs do when
they're sick they don't eat, andor when their tummy hurts.

(30:19):
But that's why we feelbutterflies in our tummy too,
it's because the microbiome isgoing hey morning.
Yes, yes, we're anxious, we'reanxious, fascinating, um, yeah,
so minimally processed diet andthere's plenty of minimally
processed, complete and balanced.
You know great diets out therebut, um, one thing that I have

(30:41):
people start doing is justtrying to add in more fresh
foods a little bit at a time.
Veggies and fruits aretypically the easiest just
leftover or even not leftover,just like smash a couple
blueberries.
Or at my house it's cucumbersoh my gosh, birdie loves
cucumbers and they're like crack.

(31:03):
You know, a little freshchicken breast.
You know, no, no seasoning,just boil it.
Or I put mine in the instant pot, just start adding in some
fresh food to increase the goodgut bacteria that's.
You know that's a great firstway, and so I have people start
doing that and just you know,depending on which direction

(31:25):
they want to go with the diet, Ican help them with that.
I just finished my second um uhnutrition certification, so
that's kind of my wheelhouse now, but that's cool, just adding
in top.
We call them toppers in theindustry and you know, just

(31:46):
working on trying to incorporatemore of those fresh foods and
that can really help.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Well, I have a question then.
You know like yogurt has livebacterias that are good yogurts,
stuff that's good for us.
Is that same principle apply todogs, as long as it's not too
much dairy, or you know?

Speaker 2 (32:04):
You know, I, I will do yogurt, I'll do kefir instead
.
But I have a lot of people whoyou know, they, they, they get a
lick mat and they want to knowwhat to put on it.
And I say, do you have yogurtin your fridge?
And like, okay, just put atablespoon on there.
Of course I don't want it likehigh in sugar or anything like

(32:24):
that, but, um, you know, greekyogurt, kefir, I use that.
I recommend that a lot.
Um, goat smell is an amazingprobiotic.
Oh yeah, there's a lot ofoptions.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
So, um, she held up a lick mat for those that aren't
watching the video, and a lickmat is usually some kind of dog
safe, rubber, plastic, whateverthat has little bumps and things
like that the texture, so thatthe food can be spread around.
It takes them a little timeinstead of gulping something
down, and it's, it's stimulating, it's interesting to the dog.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
It's calming and I use it to calm and create
positive associations and justto help a dog have some mental
exercise.
So that's a side note.
But you know, licking onsomething like that is really
good too.
You know, stimulatingendorphins and then enzymes for

(33:19):
digestion, Okay.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
Okay, so when we change the dog's diet and it
takes time, right Cause we haveto build, but there must be
behavioral parts of it too.
Yeah, go with it.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Right?
Is there stuff that, as owners,we can do to help our dogs?
If we're like, we've come toyou, we've gotten an idea of
what foods we're going to workwith.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
What would be the?

Speaker 1 (33:40):
next step.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well, I certainly work a lot on building
confidence and problem solvingthat's a big thing, and you know
and decreasing whatever thecause of the anxiety you know,
because sometimes it's genetic,sometimes it's environmental.
So just decreasing stressors inthe environment and then
working on what we call counterconditioning.

(34:02):
So that's you have an emotionconditioned emotional response
that's classically conditionedalready like a fear of fire
hydrants or garbage trucks ordogs similar to horses, I would

(34:26):
imagine.
We want to work on counterconditioning that emotion with a
new behavior and a newemotional association and that's
where a lot of the behaviorchange comes in.
The gut part is big because wehave to try and improve the
neurotransmitters to help withthe gut brain access, the
neurotransmitters to help withthe gut brain access.
The neurotransmitters talkthrough the gut or talk from the
gut to the brain through thevagus nerve and so when we have

(34:48):
more neurotransmitters you'regoing to have less anxiety.
Then we can actually reallystart the behavior modification
process and the vagus nerve forthose listening is a long.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
It's on horses and dogs and other mammals too.
You could just it's a long set.
It's like a central railroad,isn't it In?
A way it runs down.
I don't know biology but itruns down from our brain, down
our, through our, near our spine.
I'm trying to remember like ourspine or something.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yeah, okay, yeah, because it's part of the central
nervous system.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Right, because it helps us whether we're going to
be in executive mode, like we'reactually thinking, and we're
not in fight or flight.
Correct so it helps, but that Inever had learned much about
the whole gut part of it likethat's talking.
Of course our whole body'stalking, it's all integrated,
yeah, but I just it's, it'sinteresting.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
So you know.
So, people, if you're feeling,anxious.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Go look at your nutrition.
Talk to a nutritionist aboutthat as your person.
Oh gosh.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Oh, you're preaching now.
I cannot tell you how much mylife changed when I cut out
gluten and dairy and sugar.
Let's talk about that.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
It was a pretty serious health crisis for you.
Let's dwell into that a littlebit.
I'm hoping you're on the mend.
But what was going on and whatmade you realize that something
was happening and you got help,hopefully.
So what happened?
That something was happening?

Speaker 2 (36:02):
and you needed to.
You know, and you got help,hopefully.
So what happened?
I didn't, I had no idea.
Actually, I didn't even know Iwas sick, which happens a lot
with celiac disease.
I just I had to have eyesurgery and I had blood work and
I was super anemic and that'sone of the biggest symptoms of
celiac disease, but I never hadany GI issues or anything else.
Um, I had migraines, really bad.
That's now when I, when Iaccidentally am exposed to

(36:24):
gluten, that's my symptom.
Um, but yeah, that was, thatwas 10 years ago.
So I had an endoscopy and thenI was diagnosed through biopsy,
which is kind of the goldstandard, um, but you know, you
can um do get blood work andstuff, uh, for celiac.
Okay, there's over 300 symptomsof celiac disease, believe it

(36:45):
or not.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
So then you were able to find some relief, like just
by changing your diet, I guess.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Well, I had to cut out gluten, obviously, and that
was cold turkey, and I'velearned a lot in the last 10
years.
It was.
It was difficult at first.
It's not as difficult now.
I'm actually now pivoting alittle bit um with my business,
because I am now training agluten detection service dog for
myself and my mentor is thefirst gluten detection trainer,

(37:17):
don Choi from Willow servicedogs, and so now I'm going to be
training gluten detection dogstoo.
Um, and she checks, bertie,checks my food and shampoo and
stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
So gluten detection um cause dogs have the
incredible um the the cells intheir nose, but the gazillion
cells in their nose that are.
That's why they can do thedetection for drugs and
everything else, the nose that.
That's why they can do thedetection for drugs and anything
else.
Dogs can even learn learning todetect cancer and amazing, you
know amazing things, and we haveseveral stories about how, uh,
dogs that we were working withknew the owner had something

(37:51):
wrong, had cancer, before theowner knew it.
The dog was telling us I couldrecognize on set that something
was wrong, but I didn't knowwhat was wrong oh wow um you
know that blew my mind, that thedog knew.
you know, because the guy wenthome after that job, after that
shoot, and like within a week hesaid I've got pancreatic cancer
and I didn't even know I had it, but the dog, the dog wouldn't
leave him dog would only workindependently, and the dog just

(38:12):
went.
Nope, I'm, I'm anxious.
I'm not thinking about this job, I'm thinking about my guy, and
we couldn't figure out what waslike, why he was so not himself
.
The dog was not himself andhe's screaming.
He's screaming.
Something's really wrong with myguy, yeah you know, oh my gosh
and sadly, you know, within sixmonths to a year, the, the
fellow passed.
But if we dogs do our earlywarning system, you know, if we

(38:35):
allow it, if we're listening,their early warning system and
on a side note horses have thesame amount of cells.
Horses, canorses, can sniff aswell as dogs, and I just learned
that this summer, horses couldbe trained to do.
Horses could be shaped to doscent detection too.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Interesting.
Okay, I'm going to have to lookmore into that.
Not that I need a horse oranything.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
No, I know, but isn't that interesting that animals
can teach us so much?
So gluten detection, they'regoing to be looking for some
compound, some way that the dogcan sniff it out the protein,
gluten protein and barley andrye also.
Okay, so he gets trained toexhibit an alert so that you
could be just going throughlooking at products and whatever

(39:14):
it is, and he could go like, oh, it doesn't say it, but it's in
there, you know, or somethingright.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
I mean I can warn you ahead of time.
If, if it has, if she detectsgluten, she freezes, and if it's
, safe she not noses, my leg,wow, who knew this?

Speaker 1 (39:31):
that's, that's amazing.
Can we have one that saysthings like uh, I'm being a
jokey here, but like no, that,that, that, uh yeah, that
chocolate, ice cream, thatchocolate ice cream is not good
for you, even though you don'thave a, you know like no, no, no
, don't, don't buy that yeah,well, she, she'll tell me, I
present it to her.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
You know a package or a plate or a bowl, um, you know
some sort of container, andshe'll sip it and she'll let me
know how does the dog not justgo like oh, but just eat it?
Thank you, training I can'tleave it, she's never well maybe
she's trying to eat once, butthen you know, of course I
worked on it when I firstpresented the plates, she, she

(40:12):
was like what?

Speaker 1 (40:14):
I did my dog a plate.
He's like that's mine well,she's.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
You know, there's so many, many, many months of
training that go up to before westart working with plates.
But yeah, now she just sniffsand that is.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
That's really cool.
I I just never heard of thatand uh, what an amazing dog
birdie is just on the whole, youknow how old is she?
Right now?
She's three, three, just oh,just a baby, okay yeah, and
birdie is um what kind of dog?

Speaker 2 (40:43):
chocolate lab also another chocolate lab.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Okay, great dogs.
Yes, okay, very cool.
All right, let me see if I'vegot covering all the things I
wanted to talk about.
Um, talk about her chocolatelab birdie.
That's one of my notes here.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
Good, okay and then, oh, I don't know if you remember
this well, you probably don't,but you photographed birdie
before for target okay, Ibelieve you because years ago
when she was like a puppy oryeah, she was before.
She was like a year, so it'slike two years ago.
Search birdie in your archivesand you'll see her oh, and she
was an audition, or?

Speaker 1 (41:22):
or this was a shoot, an audition?

Speaker 2 (41:24):
and tinker um is one of my tinker's mom is one of my
best friends.
Tinker the yellow lab fromtarget.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
Oh, love tank yeah, I always call her tank, that's
right.
Tank, yes, tank, okay, no.
Um, yeah, she's a deer, she'sthe dog and the owner.
She's just a deer um well, didyou ever get birdie's pictures?
I'll make sure you have them,if you didn't get them.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yes, they're beautiful, thank you.
She's never been chosen byTarget, though, but that's okay.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
I actually no, to be fair, now, they haven't been
using the chocolate labs thatmuch, but I did put her up
because she does.
She have a green collar on.
I think I did put her up forsomething just recently.
We'll get Birdie in Dang it.
Okay, um, cause, yeah, we do alot of work for them.
Okay, let's, um.
It says that you lost Paisley,which I'm sad to hear, in 2021.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
So how old?

Speaker 1 (42:10):
was Paisley then.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
She had just turned 11.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
Okay, so the normal age roughly for a lab, but
always hard.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Yeah, I mean I she got.
She got osteosarcoma becauseher immune system was just so
shot from her blood disease.
Um, I, you know, I believe sheshe could have lived a little
bit longer Um cause it, you knowshe had not developed that the
blood disease.
But yeah, she was an amazingdog, the best dog I've ever had

(42:40):
and I'll never have another onelike her.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
I understand I feel that way about a particular
horse.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
I get it yeah, she was an.
She was amazing.
She was my demo dog and shetrained so many puppies, because
I do puppy board and trainhundreds of puppies and yeah,
she was awesome it takes aspecial dog to tolerate all
those naughty puppies.
You can see her, she's rightthere.
Oh, dear girl, yeah, dear girlso you have just one dog right

(43:05):
now, or a couple, I do yeah, I'mthinking about getting another,
another chocolate lab puppy toto train as a gluten detection
dog, probably next year, andactually I'm, I've been wanting
to do this for a while.
Um, and I'm, I'm just, I'm justgonna do it.
I don't know why I'm not, but Iwant to adopt a senior dog
that's in a shelter that's been,you know, like their owner died

(43:28):
or something, and I'm, or aphosphorus dog from a rescue.
Um, it's just, I think it wouldbe really rewarding, so I'm
going to do it soon, very soon.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
I have um senior mares horses that I got from uh
forever Morgans out of New Yorkand.
Pennsylvania, but they gosh.
I've had them 10, 12 years nowand they just we don't ride them
.
They're just you know, retiredold Morgans.
I have Morgans.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
And they're just wonderful, grandma horses.
That's my.
You know, they're probably mylast ones, because we did it for
about 20 years and now I havethree young horses that I
purposely my first purposebought Morgans.
But I love my, my old girls.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
They're just this you know, I love seniors.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
All right, we're back , and this is the part of the
show where we do the questionswhen I.
All right, we're back, and thisis the part of the show where
we do the questions when I, whenI sent you the intake form.
There was a series of questionsthat we totally stole this
concept, this idea of askingthese questions, from Warwick
Schiller, who is a horse horseperson trainer that is helping
all the horse people become moreattuned to their horses, and he

(44:39):
stole the idea from TimFerriss's book tribe of mentors.
So these questions come fromtim ferris.
Yeah, so we have to like givecredit where credit's due.
Yeah, so I sent you 20questions and you picked out
five of them.
Okay, so the questions that I'mgoing to ask you about is uh.
The first one was what bookwould you recommend and why?

Speaker 2 (45:00):
All right, this is easy.
I took it off my shelf, soshe's holding up a book?
No, it's good for us.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
The Forever Dog by Rodney Habib and Dr Karen Shaw
Becker.
So tell us about the ForeverDog.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Well, it's a book about how the things that you
can do to help your dog liveforever.
Oh, everyone's going to wantthat, yes, um, these two authors
are, um, well.
Dr Becker has been one of myidols for many years, um, and

(45:37):
Rodney Habib I've.
I actually just saw him inOctober at the feed real um
Institute conference and he'sjust a force.
He started Planet Paws onFacebook years ago and it's the
most followed Facebook page.
There's millions and millionsof followers and they have
studied the dogs in the worldthat have lived the longest and

(45:58):
why they lived the longest.
And so they pulled tons ofresearch and there's so much
research in this book, um, andjust kind of outlined how how to
help your dog live forever.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
So it's a it's a fascinating book.
I'm curious, is one of thethings for helping a dog live
forever?
I'm going to get the book, youknow it sounds great.
Um, I'm going to try and gethim on my podcast Cause now I
want to talk.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Oh, you should.
Yeah, I have a new book comingout in two weeks called the
forever dog life yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
Well then, this is good timing.
Um, I'm curious, cause someonehas told me this.
Um, I have a 15 year old borderCollie, right, I've had him
since he was a pup.
Now I live on a farm so he'sbeen able his entire life
because I've had, you know,we've lived here.
He's able to free run like he'ssupervised.
We don't let our dogs out, we'reout with them okay, right we
exercise, we go for walks youknow we and he also works.

(46:53):
He likes to work the sheep andyou know he does his dog job.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
He doesn't have to be on a leash, you know, ever,
unless we're in town, right,he's 15, so, yeah, but I mean he
doesn't have to, even there's,no, he doesn't run away, right.
So, like, we play frisbee andhe's got my two other dogs so
they have this happy you knowchase game and all this stuff, I
was told, because so many,there's a lot of border collies,
um, that, uh, live in town ordo other dog sports that kind of

(47:19):
maybe not last that long orthey have serious, like they
break down their you know tearand I tear an ACL, or, you know,
things can happen, right, um,I'm told that because he's had
free exercise, like like thisand and on a daily basis his
whole life, of of this time torun and play and run and play,
and run and play, you know thatphysically fit, he's physically

(47:41):
fit and he's never had anyhealth issues.
Now he's 15, so, so he's, hehas the selective deafness.
You know, like I don't need tohear you, so I don't need to
come in, but, um, you know, I'mlike, oh, thank you, thank you,
right, I mean, what a thrillthat he's lived this long.
And my, my brain goes.
I hope you just die in yoursleep, you know, because you
don't want to go through thatprocess.
But is that part of it?
Is part of living forever beingable to exercise in an

(48:04):
appropriate way?

Speaker 2 (48:06):
yep exercise is one of the main things, for that's
important for dogs.
You know, there's diet, there'senvironment exercise, for sure.
Um, there's some other thingstoo, but absolutely, and I I
have no doubt that that's whyhe's lived as long as he has.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Well, I'm happy that he's had a.
You're lucky if you're a doghere, because, man, you know,
for the occasional modeling jobwhere you get lots of treats,
there's not much work, you know,you just get to have he's right
over here.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
He's just right there under my feet he's also been
exposed to a lot of you know.
I want to say you know,microbes, or um oh, on a farm,
yeah, yeah, dirt and poop.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
They'll eat poop, if you let them, and horse poop and
things like that.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
He has a really balanced microbiome, I would
imagine.
Oh, I never put that together,that is interesting.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
We're a city dog.
You know, unless they find somerabbit poop or something,
they're not going to.
You know you're not gonna letthem have that.
You know you're going to belike don't eat that.
You know.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yeah, yeah, Dirt, dirt's not bad.
I mean obviously they can't.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
Well, I think that's why my husband you know, knock
on wood strong is because youknow the dirt that we live with.
Yeah, so yeah, they mentionedlike when polio came around,
when polio came so badly in the1950s and things like that, when
polio was a terrible scourgebefore the vaccination.
Um, they had changed from theearly, in the early 1900s, 1920s

(49:33):
, I can't exactly to become moresanitary, which is a good thing
, right, but then and thenhorses became less involved in
human's lives, especially incities.
So, people didn't have access,there weren't the germs of horse
manure and farm animals to helpbuild up immune systems, so
that when polio came, it was sobad and I just thought, wow,

(49:53):
everyone needs horses in theirlife.
That's where I'm going withthat.
We need to eat more dirt andhave farm animals.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah for sure.
Well, the immune system is inthe gut and that's where you
know.
That's why, how the microbiomecomes into play, it's all
related.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
It's so fascinating.
Yeah, definitely going to haveto come back and circle back on
some of these subjects sometime,because this is cool.
All right, the next message, or?
Sorry?
No, I forgot, we're on thequestions.
Yeah, that's all right, wecould go on, because it's so
cool If you could send a messageto the world.
What would that be?
And do you have a favoritequote or why?

Speaker 2 (50:27):
Yes, I have had a favorite quote for many, many
years, probably 35 years.
Well, maybe not that long, butI saw it one day and I thought,
oh my gosh, that's how I live mylife.
And so I have.
You're not going to be able toread this, but I have a magnet
on my fridge and it says leapand the net will appear.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Oh faith, and you know just that it's going to be
all right.
Leap and the net will appear.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
And that's just how I've lived my life.
And you know, if you're just,my message would be if you want
to do it, just do it, leap andthe net will appear.
You know, and that's kind of anall encompassing.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
That's a good.
It's pretty broad and so peoplecan interpret it the way they
like.
Yeah, I happen to.
I'm a person of faith, so Ikind of go like, all right, I'm,
I'm covered, you know.
but I think, that's a reallygreat way to I have kind of like
faith, not fear, you know.
So that's kind of a a paradigmon that or a thing on that too.
That's great, that's a great.
I always look at you know, Ijoke about it look at risk or
look at things like, hey, willit?
Two questions Will it hurtsomeone?
Cause I never want to hurtanybody that can try and do

(51:31):
something Will it hurt someone.
I don't want to hurt me, and thesame thing like creating a
podcast, or starting a business,or make a new friendship, or
getting the puppy, getting thepuppy why not?

Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, becoming a gluten detection dog trainer.
I never thought it was going tohappen, right, right.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Oh, I bet that that could parallel to people with
allergies then too, like deadlyallergies, you know.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
So yeah, there's a lot of people in our program
that are training dogs for likepeanuts and um dairy soy, um, oh
yeah, no, my dog, the dog Ijust used yesterday when I was
working um in Milwaukee.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
a dog we use yesterday is a little Jack
Russell and her owner, um, hasto carry EpiPen um for um bee
stings and things like thatshe's training the dog.
She's training the dog to alerther to a possible allergic
problem.
You know, like cantaloupe justset it off or something,
something that she wasn't.
She wasn't aware that she hadthese issues, and so she's

(52:35):
learning.
Yeah, exactly, and I was justlike yes, I was like wow.
You know, she's not only yourbest friend, this little dog,
but she could save your lifeExactly, I know.
Isn't that mind blowing?
You know, and I think if wecould shape cats they'd probably
do it too.
They just don't care, you know.
So that's right.
No, I'm not trashing the cats,you know, I love my cat.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, no, I love cats too.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Cats are really trainable, oh do, that's my
living, as my cats are modelsand they have the best life.
But, yeah, yeah, so no, they're, but there's no dominance.
So that was the early lesson,right there there's, there's no
dominance.
And they do what?

Speaker 2 (53:10):
they want.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah, and that's really smart of them.
Good, we should be more likecats, like you know.
Is it in my best interest?
Okay, no, I love them all right.
Sorry I digress, but that was,um, that's a wonderful quote.
I love that all right.
Uh, the Sorry I digress, butthat was, um, that's a wonderful
quote.
I love that All right.
Uh, the next question what isthe most valuable thing that you
put your time into that haschanged the course of your life?

Speaker 2 (53:31):
This not podcast, but like, um you know, getting the
message out that dogs are justhaving a hard time.
That's, that's my message.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
Well, I think you're doing a great service.
Oh, thank you, that's.
That's great, All right.
Uh, what accomplishments?
Sorry.
What accomplishment are youmost proud of, and why?

Speaker 2 (53:54):
My business.
Good, it's helping.
It's a constant hustle, butit's, it's my baby.
I don't have kids.
So wagon trains my kid, it's my, it's my greatest
accomplishment, it's have kids.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
So wagon trains my kid.
It's my best, it's my greatestaccomplishment, it's my legacy.
But what a service-basedbusiness.
You know, I mean you're notselling a trinket, you know
you're, you're actually helpingpeople, Right, it's, it's a
really and dogs.
So I have the best job.
I agree, I agree, that'swonderful.
Okay, yeah, what is the worstadvice given in your profession
or bad idea that you hear of inyour field of expertise?

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Well, I think we already covered this one but it
was the dominance part.
But when I read this question Ithought the one thing that
stuck out in my mind and itwasn't really advice, it's just
something that I hear all thetime is my dog is stubborn.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
And I think the worst , like I.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
I hate pet peeves, um , but like that's, I only have
one, and it's people who driveslow in the fast lane and people
who are, and maybe a secondpeople who call their dog
stubborn.
Stubborn, but um, anyway Idigress.
Stubborn, I equivalent isequivalent to a dog not being

(55:08):
motivated enough or being tooscared or too stressed or in an
environment they can't handle,they're having a hard time.
So whenever people tell metheir dog is stubborn, you know
I automatically know okay, well,that dog's having a hard time.
You know why?
Is it fearful?
Is it stressed?
Is it sick?

(55:29):
You know dogs aren't willfullystubborn.
There's some breeds that are,you know, like cats, that are a
little more.
You know they have a.
It's more challenging tomotivate them well, they're
discerning.
We just call that discerning.
They're not yeah, they're doinga cost benefit analysis
constantly, but they're notbeing stubborn, so that I think

(55:49):
in the industry, if I couldabolish that one word, oh it
would help.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
It would help horses so much.
It would help horses so much ifpeople understood that stubborn
isn't the thing it's.
You know fear, it's notunderstanding.
You're not asking the questionthat they can understand.
You know things like that andyou know fear, it's not
understanding.
You're not asking the questionthat they can understand.
You know things like that andyou know what it's.
Children, too, you know, oh my,my kids.
So stubborn, it's like.
No, that's it's, it's a wholething.
You know, yeah, what is goingon?

(56:14):
That paradigm again, like whenyou have children with adverse
childhood experiences and they,you know, in air quotes, again
misbehave, which is a form ofcommunication.
Okay, so, instead of um, notwhat's wrong with you, which is
our instinct, you know what'swrong with you.
You're a terrible child.
What's wrong with you?
No, what happened to you?
You know why are, why is thisemotional state, this

(56:34):
dysregulation?
What's happened If?
we could always, if we couldalways ask the dog, you know why
as opposed to you are bad, youknow?

Speaker 2 (56:43):
well, they're trying to tell us you know, everything
is communication, all, all allmovement, all everything is
communication.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
It's just we're not listening.
You know, human beings, we'rejust so above everything, we're
not listening Interesting.
Okay, it's frustrating but,yeah, it's going to get better
because they're going to go toyour site and learn more things
and be better for our dogs.
Okay, what inspires andmotivates you to do what you do
and what is your true purpose inthe world?

Speaker 2 (57:10):
Well, this is my true purpose for sure, you know I I
love working with people, I loveworking with dogs.
Uh, I just.
It's so rewarding for me to seethe light bulb go on in
someone's head when they justrealize like, oh my god, that's
what my dog's been trying totell me or that's how I can help
my dog, and they do want tohelp.
They do want to help they do.

(57:30):
They I mean, these are their youknow children, or their, you
know their, their um.
You know highest commodities isare their pets, and they just
people just don't know how to,how to interpret um or or
communicate are their pets, andthey, just people just don't
know how to, how to interpret umor or communicate with their
animals.
And it's just so rewarding forme to do that.

(57:51):
And that is my purpose.
Like I said, it's my legacythat's.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
that's a good thing.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Uh, how small is it.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Oh no, I think it's important Two things.
One first how do we find you?
So we're going to have all ofyour links and everything in the
show notes, but just tell ushow to find you and then what
you can do for people.
They have questions.
How do we find you?

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Well, the easiest way is my website, which is
wagandtraincom.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Okay, and so they can go there, check that out, send
you an email message.
Sure Things like that.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Yeah, great.
Yeah, I mean my email iskerryatwagandtraincom.
Um, but my website has all theinformation on it too, and you
can learn all about the gut,brain access and, you know,
behavior modification on theretoo.
I have lots of blogs, videos.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
I love that when people are so generous with
information.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
I try to be.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful.
And then I have anotherquestion for you, because you
have you're such a wealth ofinformation To me, you have such
an interesting story, and it'snot easy in this world anymore.
But I mean, are you going towrite a book?

Speaker 2 (59:06):
because I would read your book I am writing a book ah
, there it is I need like sevenmore hours in the day to finish
it for the next six months.
Yeah, I'm writing a book ontreating anxiety and aggression
through healing leaky gut.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
There you go, and I bet there's principles apply to
people too, so I just play thiswhole thing.
You know, yeah, we're going tookay, so when you get that going
we'll have you back on Okay.
We definitely want to learnmore about that.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
I'll be 80 by then.
No, I'm joking, I'm trying,yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
I'm supposed to write a book about all our adventures
as an animal actor trainer.
You know I'm supposed to youknow because we have 30 years of
that and there's, yeah, somestories, but first of all, not a
writer problem yeah, that's aproblem.
I love writing, I just don'thave time yeah, no, that's
someday well, carrie, this hasbeen so informative and I'm I

(59:58):
know that people are going to bereally interested in this
subject.
Um, knowing that you know thedogs aren't bad, they just need
help.
It's that's a great premise.
To start having a hard time.
They're having a hard time, um,aren't we all in some ways?
But we do.
We do love our dogs.
We don't want them to have ahard time, and they're.
They're so good for us.
They want to.

(01:00:18):
All they want to do is likemake us happy.
What species is like that, thatjust wants so much to be part
of the family, part of the team,part of the?
I'm with you fellas you know, sothat's pretty great um.
So I thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Thank you for having me.
This was wonderful okay.