Katenna Jones - Regarding Pets - Being Kind Feels Right - S1 E6

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Katenna Jones transitioned from a volunteer dog walker as a teen to a certified applied animal behaviorist and fear free trainer consultant.

Learn why heavy-handed dominance based training didn't resonate with her and how punishment merely suppresses behavior rather than changing it. Listen in as she guides you through practical advice for handling pet behavioral issues and why reward-based techniques are key in training. 

 We also spoke about consent and the concept of individuality in animal behavior. We touch on how medical issues can sometimes present as behavioral issues, and her empathetic approach to pet training. Join us on this exploration of the complex world of animal behavior with the inspiring Katina Jones.

https://www.empathetic-trainer.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the empathetic trainer, and our
guest today is Katina Jones.
She has a whole bunch ofletters after her name.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
My friends a joke that it's just.
I was doing my signature and acat walked across my keyboard.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
That's what happened.
That's what it looks like.
Yeah, so I'm just gonna readyour bio real quick to kind of
give you a quick introduction tomy audience.
But Katina Jones, through Jonesanimal behavior, provides
in-person and virtual behaviorConsultations, as well as
educational seminars to petowners, rescues and pet
professionals.
She speaks at internationalevents, contributes to a wide

(00:35):
variety of publications and isauthor of fetching the perfect
dog trainer getting the best foryou and your dog.
Oh, we're definitely going totalk about that.
Katina began her career as avolunteer dog walker in 1999 and
went on to earn her master'sdegree from Brown University
when she studied animal behaviorlearning and the cognition.
Eventually she became a crueltyinvestigator, worked for the

(00:56):
American Humane's Associationand also for the Association of
Professional Dog Trainers.
Katina is an associate,certified applied animal
behaviorist, certified cat anddog behavior consultant,
certified pet dog trainer andcertified fear-free trainer.
She lives in Rhode Island withher two cats, five chickens and
random foster pets.
Well, I can, I can relate tosome of this for sure, not the

(01:18):
education so much, but the, thechickens and the random pets
yeah, cats.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Recently I had seven cats and I'm oh my god, I'm a
crazy cat lady now, oh, you justyou're?

Speaker 1 (01:29):
you're just a cat lady in training.
I mean, that's hardly any atall.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah.
I used to do investigations andwould go to hoarding cases.
It'd be like 60 to 100 cats.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, no, I that can relate to that very briefly in
my very, very early on I workedfor the Minnesota Humane Society
and Mostly I was the secretaryor you know, administration,
that kind of stuff, because thiswas Maybe 35 years ago, quite a
long time ago now.
This is there for a while andbut then they would send me out
on investigations and that wasone of the hardest things

(02:02):
because, as you know, you knowyou want to bring those horses
home.
I mean, they get rescued, butyou want them like now.
You know, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
And waiting for the court processes?

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, I'm so, and so I'm sure you've got some some
pretty harrowing tales aboutthat but and I bet they did a
lot of good work.
But so I wanted to talk to youabout like okay, how did you get
all of what, what?
Where did it start?
You know some animal people youknow.
Are we just born with it?
I'd like to know kind of likewhat your your first kind of

(02:33):
memories of animals and how theyaffected you and why you're
even.
You know you have an animallife.
How did this happen?

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, well, I was that kid.
You know, in my yard if I founda fallen baby bird or I
remember a friend's family wasdoing construction, there was
little baby mice in the wall Iwould always bring those
creatures home in my.
My parents weren't realthrilled with all the stuff that
I was bringing home, you know,because we lived in farm areas

(02:59):
so there's kittens everywhereand I knew I wanted to do
something with animals, but Ididn't know what I wanted to do.
So I might.
For undergraduate I studiedbiology and and discovered
something called animal behaviorand my plan was to study
gorillas and my senior year Iwas bored, so I started

(03:19):
volunteering at a local animalshelter and then realized at
that time that I'm afraid ofspiders, so Rwanda is probably
not the place to go.
Yeah, like, living in thejungle is probably not conducive
to being afraid of bugs.
So I I realized there wasanimal, because I thought animal
behavior was only animals inthe wild.

(03:41):
And then I discovered, oh, youcan work with companion animals
also, and I, as a volunteer, Ifell in love with the rescue
world.
And then I found a pro.
I was accepted to a program atBrown University where my
advisor was working with shelterdogs.
So I moved my life to RhodeIsland and studied shelter dogs

(04:01):
and then Just kind of one thingled to another, led to another
and basically any opportunitythat came, I said yes.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
That's a good way to approach life.
You know when things show up,you know if it's not gonna hurt
you or somebody else.
You say yes, that's a great wayto approach it.
So you said you moved to RhodeIsland.
Where did you come from then?

Speaker 2 (04:24):
The Adirondacks, northern New York.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Oh beautiful, you're beautiful country just all
across the board.
There you must have thechanging seasons right now too,
because it's fall.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, wisconsin, the leaves are falling outside bad,
bad, okay.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
well then, how, how did you take this education and
the experiences that you werehaving and and do that magical
thing where you sort of make aliving from it?

Speaker 2 (04:47):
that you know, because that's kind of
impossible thing, yeah well, Iwas working at the Rhode Island
as PCA at the time and as my jobthere I was animal behaviorist,
so I worked with all the thecats and the dogs and we started
offering consulting services tothe public.
So when people adopted pets, Iwould help them, help the pet

(05:10):
adjust and deal with issues.
And as I did that, I just gotmore and more practice with
harder and harder cases and Iwould come across a case that I
didn't know how to deal with andI'd go and find Information to
learn about that, and then itwas all books.
It wasn't.
There were no webinars oranything.
Yeah and I just slowly learnedby reading all of I've got all

(05:31):
my reference books back thereand just reading books and
eventually going to conferencesand at the time APDT was the
only place that hadInformational conferences where
you could learn how to doconsulting type stuff.
And so I was traveling aroundand I have to write grants
because I was working for anonprofit and gradually just met

(05:52):
different people and learnedmore and more and it just slowly
became a thing and then Istarted working.
I left the SPCA because I had abit of a shelter burnout
situation.
That's I was doing crueltyinvestigation and and it was my
job to assess all the cats anddogs.
So I had to make the life anddeath decisions, which became

(06:14):
very difficult.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
That would be a lot to carry.
Yeah, I mean even though theydon't know tomorrow.
You know they don't knowtomorrow.
They only know the, the comfortand the good things that you're
giving them at that moment.
It's still a hard thing forhumans to carry.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, it really is, and I completely burnt out and
had a bit of a breakdown so Ihad to leave rescue and Ended up
getting a job at AmericanHumane.
And that's the.
No animals were harmed.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Credit end of film as an animal actor trainer, I'm
completely familiar, becausewhen we go on set we need a
humane representative to Protectthe animals and we love it.
Because then we can say, oh youknow, I Never had, I don't I'm
really careful with my animalsanyway but say I had an argument
with the director, they, they'dbe there to back me up and say

(07:02):
no, absolutely not, although Ifthat doesn't really happen with
us, because I won't even getthat close, but the point is
they're there to make sure thatnothing causes the animal stress
or problems.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
So that's a good and they have At the time.
I don't know if they still do.
They have a child division andan animal division and I was in
humane education which straddledboth.
Oh, working for them.
My job was to create thecontent of Educational with the
behavioral content ofeducational materials, so like
dog bite prevention programs andClasses for getting ready if

(07:34):
you're having a baby or adoptinga child, to prepare you okay.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Okay, I had no idea that was so encompassing.
That's pretty cool what theydid.
So you were there and then what?
Then?
What happened?

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Um, I ended up leaving.
No, they Closed our department.
So we all were kind ofscattered to the wind and,
through my work with them, Istarted working with a PDT and a
PDT found out.
I was Wandering around lookingfor a job and so they hired role
for my audience APD.
What is that?
A PDT, association ofprofessional dog trainers.

(08:06):
Okay and at the time it was theworld's largest dog training
related membership organizationand they hired me to be director
of education.
So I created all of the onlinecontent and that's when webinars
were just getting started andonline courses, and we created
Multi-module courses and it sortof exploded from there sure,

(08:27):
sure, well, you're younger thanme but you may remember a time
when dog training Was.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
There's been a real shift, a revolution, a really
good revolution In dog training,and it's just starting in horse
training.
But in dog training, you know,over the last I don't what would
you say 20 years, you know it'sjust been just a huge shift,
because I remember choke chainsand a lot of dominance theory

(08:56):
and you know, if you're gonnamake him do something, so don't
give him, you know, like to feedhim his kibble.
You have to make him dosomething, you know.
And da, da, da.
And I just heard somethingreally amazing the other day
instead of looking at behaviorlike what's wrong with you, look
at it like what happened to you.
We do that with our people thathave gone through trauma and

(09:17):
adverse childhood experiences.
So Behavior I learned this,just heard this like two days
ago and you, you already knowBehavior is a form of
communication.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, so everything your pet does is they're
communicating to you in the onlyway that they can, so they
don't have the language that youspeak, so they're speaking with
their language, which is bodylanguage.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
So most of the problems that horses have are
with people.
So most of the problems thatdogs and our cats and other
animals have are with people.
And the title of your book,which I really love I'm just
gonna refer back to that quickfetching the perfect dog trainer
, getting the best for you andyour dog.
That's a, that's a paradigmshift.

(09:58):
I mean, what a great way tolook at it.
So, instead of you know thewhole way it used to be, this
looks like Finding the rightperson to help you get the right
approach.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yes, right in that transition.
So I found, you know, like theKohler method and all the
Heavy-handed training stuff, andI also found content from like
Ian Dunbar and so there were thetwo sides when I first started
and Just being kind felt rightto me because I had seen, yeah,

(10:31):
what a scene dogs being chokedand it just didn't feel right in
my gut.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
No, I, because I remember that when I was in dog
training classes as a youngsterbecause that's when I started
walking dogs 50 cents a dog.
I was a kid, but you know, as Ididn't have any pets growing up
, I had to borrow neighborhoodpets and they'd give me money
just to walk them and I wasthrilled.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
But anyway I remember that you were a pioneer, you
were a pioneer.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well, I remember being in class and two dogs
started to fight and they theyhung them up, choke the air out
of them and I just, you know,and you said that how it
viscerally made you feel, youknow, made me feel ill and I'm
like this is not how it shouldbe done.
And I learned that real, realyoung, and obviously you did too
.
But you said, you saidsomething just a little bit ago
about kind being, kind feelsright.

(11:21):
Being kind feels right.
Is that what?
That's a wonderful, yeah,approach.
So you started with the next.
The next was that organization,okay, and then I.
Then what happened after that?

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Well, at that time I was doing all the education.
So I was basically getting freeeducation because I that was my
job was to create everything,so planning the conferences and
all the online webinars andwhatnot.
So I got a pretty big educationwhile I was working for them.
And Then I ended up leavingthat organization.
In I was like, why can't I dothis?

(11:59):
So I started because I had beendoing it a little bit on the
side here and there, helping aclient like one client a month
or something and I just startedexpanding it and taking more and
more and more and eventually itbecame full-time.
So it kind of dovetailed.
So as I was leaving theorganization, I started taking
on more clients.
So by the time I left I hadenough clients to pay my bills.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Oh, that's wonderful, and not so much the living but
the important work you're doing.
I mean it's great if we canmake a living right just to you
know, goodbye.
But the fact that you'rehelping so many pets, because
that's got to be the end result.
With the education, because allof you, if you go to her
website, which isjonesanimalbehaviorcom I was

(12:45):
tooling around on it the lastfew days there's just a ton of
free information right there,all these articles, everything
about your approach, how to geta consultation if that's what
they want to do with you.
But it was educational just togo and start even looking.
There was an article there byDavid.
I don't know how to pronouncehis last name, but Mech or Meach

(13:06):
.
Oh, mech, yep, david, mech theWolf Men.
That was one of the first booksI got as a youngster.
I was like to my parents I wantthis book of wolves and men.
I believe it was called becauseI wanted to learn about that
and there's an article on therebecause he was like the wolf guy
, you know still a wolf guy?

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, he's the one that created the alpha term, the
term alpha and beta.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Right, the whole thing about how we're going to
be dominant.
And he nah, now looking back,he's changed his mind and we
know more.
So we're going to do betterbecause we know more.
And it was like wow, ifsomebody like that can change
there, because that was hiswhole thing and that's what he
was known for and I don't knowhim personally, but I remember
that was really important when Iwas 14, to get that book, you
know, yes, he that's.

(13:47):
I'm really glad that people cansee a different path.
They've just now debunking thefact in horse herds that there's
an alpha.
You know the alpha and we'vegot to be dominant.
That's all shifting too, soit's not just dogs and then with
cats there's never been analpha.
So us cat owners have learned,and we know that from way back,

(14:10):
you know.
Yes, because they're notcompletely domesticated yet so
no, and which is so wonderful,they choose to be with us.
But yes.
Okay, so then what?
What do you recommend then forour listeners if they have a dog
and they you know that fromyour book and they recommend
they get your book, visit yourwebsite, all those things, but

(14:30):
uh, how do we find a trainerthat is going to be?
Um, help us be clear enough sothat we can understand how we
can change our behavior so wecan help our dog.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
Well, it's really difficult and that's why I wrote
that book, because there's somuch alphabet soup out there and
people claiming this and that,and if you get with somebody
who's very charismatic they cansell you on.
You're supposed to buy thiscollar and you're supposed to be
an alpha and take charge andRemember that TV show.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
I won't mention the name, but there was a TV show
that was very popular and I'mwatching it.
I'm just going mm.
Yeah, you know it was likebecause he was successful.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
He was very charismatic.
But if you push mute and watchthe show, it's a completely
different experience.
And watch the behavior and shutoff the language of the, it's a
bit of smoke and mirrors.
You know, kind of Right Right.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, person has to be discerning, right?
Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
If it doesn't feel right, if if what you're doing
is working by causing fear orpain, then it's not considered
science based modern dogtraining.
So it should be based in animallearning, which is applies to
any species horses, cats, dogs,snakes, birds, any species,
humans.
It's all based on animallearning.

(15:50):
You know, if I give yousomething you like, you're going
to do more of what you're doing.
If I take away something youlike, you're going to do less of
what you're doing, and I don'thave to make you afraid or feel
pain to get you to stop doingsomething.
I can use the way we know thatanimal brains work to modify
behavior.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
Well, humans are animals, and so the principle
applies, because no one learnsanything when they're frightened
.
I mean, how can a child learnif you're shouting or hitting?
There's no learning going onthere, they just learn to be
afraid.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
They shut down.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
And they shut down the horses.
Same thing.
I'm applying what I've learnedto my sheep, because they're
mammals as well, and the commonsignals with horses, because
they're herd animals as well,matches what with sheep and my
sheep are really tame because Ilove them beyond words.
It's hard to explain, but too.
But it's so much fun to applywhat I've learned to through the

(16:48):
horses to the sheep for thesame kind of watching, for the
same common signals and the samebehaviors and things like that.
So all right, let's, let'scontinue this on.
When I was looking through yourstuff, I found the words humane
hierarchy.
Could you explain what thatmeans?
That's a new term for me.

Speaker 2 (17:05):
So the humane hierarchy is a concept that we
do the least disruptive thing toan animal In order to change
their behavior.
So the least or Lima is also apart of it which is least
intrusive, minimally aversive.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Right, I wrote that down to least in I'm sorry least
invasive, minimally adverse.
Yeah, okay, so yeah, we've gotto work those two terms and just
clarify for us as much weappreciate it.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
So say we go right to a choke chain.
That's very aversive.
There's many other things thatwe can do before that.
So the idea is it's in layers.
So first we might look at dietand the environment.
So what kind of nutrition arethey getting?
What's happening in the brainas far as nutrition, and in the
body?
Are they in pain?

(17:54):
Do they need some sort of painrelief or physical assistance,
like physical therapy?
Are they doing something?
Because the way they move iscontributing to the behavior?
So the external stuff.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
And then we start looking.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, and then we start looking at the environment
.
So how can I modify theenvironment to give you what you
need?
Because so often we put humansin the center of the universe.
So how is all of this affectingme?
But if we put the animal in thecenter of the universe, how is
all of this affecting the animal?
So it's kind of like what yousaid before.
It's the if we look at it andthis is a lot coming from

(18:33):
working with children withbehavior issues yeah Right, it's
not.
They're not giving you a hardtime, they're having a hard time
.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
Oh, that's wonderful.
They're not giving you a hardtime, they're having a hard time
.
That's like, again, anothershift of how you're viewing
something Excellent.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yes, and these are animals that have certain
biological and behavioral needsbased on their species.
So horses have different needsthan cats, have different needs
than dogs, have different needsthan children, and so often
their environments are notgiving them what they need.
And then we see behaviorproblems, and most of it is, or

(19:12):
typically a common thing is givethem more exercise, which it
used to be true, but they'regetting a lot more now with
doggie daycares and dog walkers.
Although 50 cents a dog is notthe rate anymore, so I was $50 a
dog.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
They could have paid me to walk the dogs.
I just wanted to be around themso badly, yeah.
But yeah, no, I see what you'resaying.
You're exactly right.
So much of it applies to humansas well, and so we worked with
girls that had adverse childhoodexperiences.
The principles applied the sameway, and that was a learning

(19:48):
experience.
And then, of course, we learnedhow healing animals are for
helping regulate.
So there's man.
We could just go on for daysabout that.
Yeah, that's pretty cool, okay.
Another thing we talked about,or what I've read about, was I'd
like to talk about what yourphilosophy is when it comes to
animal training.
There's three things.

(20:09):
One I'd like to learn aboutdominance, because we touched on
that a little bit aboutadversives and punishment, which
I think you spoke a little, andthen rewards are positive.
So you sort of touched on that.
But we can run through thatagain.
Why doesn't?
Let's start, maybe, to ask thatquestion why doesn't dominance
work?
Remember the days you'd hit adog and he messes in the house

(20:30):
and you hit him with a newspaper?
I mean, logically, you go like,why would that make any sense
at all?
But why was stuff like that?
Why didn't we know better?

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Well, it was the same thing with raising children.
You smack your kid if they talkback to you instead of
understanding why are theytalking back to you?
What of their needs are notbeing met and how can we
establish a better communicationpattern?
So when we're experiencingsomething we don't like, we want
to stop it, we want to shut itdown, and the fastest way to do

(21:01):
that is with force.
So I'm making you stop becauseyou're afraid of me or because
it hurts, and we think we'repunishing the behavior.
But the pet might not beexperiencing that same
connection.
They may think they're beingpunished because you approached
them.
So it's not.
I'm not saying I'm the dog.
I'm not connecting that you'rehitting me with a newspaper
because I pooped over there.

(21:22):
I'm connecting that you walkedinto the room and hit me with a
newspaper.
So I'm being hit because youentered the room, not because of
the poop.
And then it starts to impact myrelationship with you and I
become fearful and I start toshut down.
So punishment shuts downbehavior.
It suppresses communication,and so then I stop communicating
with you and calm, submissive,is shut down.

(21:48):
So I'm just not going to doanything because when I do
something I get punished for it,and whenever you're around me,
I get punished for it, and sothat's why shock colors are just
so emotionally painful to me,because we think we're punishing
them for a specific behavior,but the dog doesn't necessarily
know that.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
I don't understand how they can make a connection
Like if I cross it's just random, shocking, yeah.
Like you know, like theylearned that, okay, I walk over
here like a boundary.
You know I get the shock, but Ijust that's a hard one for me
as well.
I never really understood.
Can you imagine putting that ona cat?

Speaker 2 (22:24):
I just there are some people who do it, which is so
disturbing.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, and you know so .
Okay, for sure.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
So it looks like it's working, because if you do
something and I don't like itand I hit you with a two by four
, you're going to stop doingthat, but you're going to stop
doing everything.
But I don't notice you'd stopdoing everything.
I just noticed that you stoppeddoing what I wanted you to.
So I think it's working.
So it looks like it's workingin the whole dominance thing.
That was very sexy.
It got into society verypervasively and effectively,

(22:58):
because I think humans likebeing the center of the universe
, they like being in charge.
So it felt very good.
It felt very I don't know whatthe word is confidence building,
I'm not sure, but it felt tohumans we're in control, because
that's what we want.
Power is control.
I'm in control of the money,I'm in control of the traffic,

(23:19):
I'm in control of all thestudents in my school.
So getting that, achievinghigher and higher levels of
power, so having power overthese little creatures in my
house, they're doing it becauseI told them to, that's power.
But it's not communication andit's not benefiting the animal
and it's based on the next study, which is based on wolves in

(23:42):
captivity.
So it was based on a flawedstudy and he knew it.
So in the seventies he knewthat this was incorrect.
But that didn't catch on himsaying there is no alpha, so
that's a bit.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yeah, let me start Go ahead.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
We can't base how we raise dogs.
So let's say it was true whathe found, that wolf behavior is
this way, which it is not.
But let's just say it was.
Dogs are not wolves.
They're descended from wolves.
So we don't look at howchimpanzees raise their children
To see how we should raise ourchildren.
Even we're not descended fromchimpanzees, but we have a

(24:22):
common ancestor and Dogs havecommon ancestors with wolves.
So in humans are more closelygenetically related to
chimpanzees than dogs are towolves, so we have a stronger
connection.
So why are we not looking atchimps on how we should raise
our children?
Because we're different species.
So how wolves act has nothingto do with how dogs act and On

(24:45):
top of that, that's not howwolves act.
They don't have an alpha.
The study was done on wolves incaptivity.
An artificially creative,created pack of wolves Wasn't a
naturally occurring pack ofwolves.
So if we studied humans in arefugee camp and said this is
how humans behave, All humans dothis?
No, humans in a refugee camp,under extreme stress, in an

(25:08):
unnatural environment, with,without their needs being met.
That's how they act.
So that's how the study withthe wolves was done wolves in an
unnatural environment, withouttheir needs being met, studying
that behavior, so erroneousobservations of Highly stressed
animals, and then applying it toa completely different species
Excuse me, species.

(25:28):
It just wasn't correct.
But it felt, it felt right andI think humans, just again,
really like the power and theylike being in control.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
Wow, no, you, you have really nailed it.
I'm just just, I'm a Missourinet, because there was a lot
there.
It was a wonderful analogyabout the refugee camp, because
that I can see it in my head.
You know.
So you have a really great wayof communicating and so animals
are lucky to have you because,oh, thank you, I'm taking in
your information and just kindof go, wow, I hadn't thought of

(25:57):
it that way.
That's wonderful.
The same thing is happening withhorses, because they they were
studying herds of horses, ofMustangs and things like that.
They were studying them, butthey were, they were in
confinement or, you know,unnatural horses have very
little extreme under extremestress, right.
So in the, you know, in myopinion Horses are happiest

(26:17):
domestic horses are happiestwhen they have companionship,
access to food and space.
You know.
So People keep horses indifferent ways and we don't have
to go into that whole bigargument.
I just know that mine reallylove the fact that they have
companions, they're together.
I don't have to worry like sowhat if they rough house a
little bit and somebody getstheir coat nipped up?
I mean, they are content andhappy and they luckily, luckily

(26:43):
here in Wisconsin, you know, Ihave lots of space so they
they're able to move freely andthey can choose whether to be
under Shelter or not.
And then, of course, they haveaccess to food 24 7, because
their stomachs need that thathorses are, they need to.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
Be able to eat.
They don't eat meals?

Speaker 1 (26:56):
No, they need for it.
So, anyway, I'm lucky that Ican do that.
Not every horse gets to livethat way, but I know that, as a
person that can feel animals toa point, I know that they're
content.
And when I walk into adifferent barn that might be
wonderfully cared for, itdoesn't feel the same.
You feel the same way when youmeet a dog.
You can feel what has been hisstory.

(27:17):
Yes, sure, you feel it, evenmore so because of your
experiences.
Okay, so Can we talk a littlebit about help me out with the
terms, because you're gonna knowbetter than I like.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
So our positive Training this is a big thing
that's going on with horsesright now.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
But there isn't there a balance, because what you
said about least invasive,minimally adverse up because,
like we can't have dogs be ableto Even like as puppies they
nibble, right, so what?
You know what's gonna be the,the approach that you're talking
about.
So when that puppy naturallyteething, you know he's gonna
want to bite your hands or a cat.
For same principle, kittens dothe same thing, baby horses do

(27:58):
the same thing with horses weretaught a good approach Is they
want to connect, because withhorses usually people push them
away.
That you know you keep yourspace, out of my space, I'm done
, I'm the boss.
No, they, they were curious,they want to connect.
So you put your hand like ahand.
They were curious, they want toconnect.
So you put your hand like acatcher's mitt and you can
encompass their muzzle.
You keep your hands flat, payattention, they can't bite you

(28:20):
and then they get theinteraction they need and you
know you can build it.
And then they do it less andless because it's a way
regulating with horses.
How does that work with dogs?
I was working with a puppy onset yesterday.
It was four months old, so theteeth and the whole thing, and,
um, naturally she wants to grabmy hands and you know it hurt.
Yeah, those little needle teeth, right and so, but she wasn't

(28:40):
doing anything unnatural for her.
So, using your methods, whatwould you recommend that someone
do with a puppy?
In that case, where she wasexcited and happy and playful
and I wanted to keep thatBecause I don't want to have
anything that makes her feelunhappy about being on set, you
know, right, what would be anapproach that you'd recommend.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Well, the biggest thing is what is the function?
So what is the function of thebehavior?
What are they trying to get outof doing that behavior?
So is she biting you becauseshe wants you to go away?
Or is she biting you becauseshe wants to interact with you?
Or is she biting you becauseshe's teething and needs relief
on her gums?
So in one situation, if shewants you to go away, then we

(29:19):
have to work on why.
Why is she afraid?
Why does she feel that way?
In modify Her communicationwith you and train her to want
to have you near her.
And if it's for teething, thenwe'd give her teething items.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
So changing the environment to set her up and
she was quite content because Ithink that's really what it was.
It didn't look to me like shewas stressed, it didn't look to
make she wanted to leave, shewas just playing, you know,
being a puppy, and that's all weasked of her.
She didn't need to do anythingbut be a puppy.
You know, when we were workingon that, so you know, I had a
chew toy and and it was likethat's what I gave her and, and

(29:57):
you know, got it to look atcamera and everything was fine,
right, but perfect.
Um, but I hadn't.
You know, you made a very goodpoint Because I didn't think
about it like a, is she doing it?
Because a, b or c?
Like what is?
I didn't think of it at thatmoment.
What is her behaviorcommunicating to me?
And anytime you?

Speaker 2 (30:17):
interact with your dog.
You're communicating with them,even if it's subconsciously,
and they're communicating withyou, which is why the answer to
and I think this came frompatricia mcconnell might be the
first person I heard this fromthe answer to any behavior
question is it depends.
Oh, yes.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yes, if you're familiar with horses at all, ray
ray hunt and tom doors wasthrough these big people that
are Started to be able tocommunicate to other people
their method or their, theirprincipal Of understanding the
horses, them.
You know, what do you know?
Do you have a question?
And then about, and then youknow I think it was tom dorrance
He'd go.
It depends.
He wasn't a man of a lot ofwords, but uh, you know, it was

(30:56):
like not everything.
Every case is the same and notevery horse is going to react in
the same way.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
So obviously, dogs, cats, you know, maybe, yeah, and
if they're say they're bitingyou because they want to
interact with you and they thinkthat this is how we socially
interact, because that's howthey socially interact with
other puppies by biting eachother and play biting and
wrestling, so that's normal forthem but it's not acceptable as
a way to interact with humans.
So what they're getting out ofbiting on you is social contact,

(31:25):
so that the quadrant thing withthe r plus and the p negative
and all that sort of stuff.
So r is reinforcer, or somethingthat they want, um, it's
enjoyable and it's designed toincrease a behavior.
And p is punisher, which is notnecessarily aversive.
Punishment means to decreasethe behavior, so reinforces

(31:47):
increased behavior andpunishment is decreased behavior
.
Okay, and plus means add andminus means remove.
So r plus is adding somethingthat will increase the behavior,
p minus is removing somethingthat will decrease the behavior.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
Okay, so Well, that's what we use with animal actors
for sure, because obviously acat's not gonna wear a halloween
costume and pose for a Mott,you know, unless he's getting
turkey, you know it has to be,because you know, um, we, I
could always make a cat staysomewhere, but can I make him
happy?
You know?
You know it has to be, he hasto want to be there and want to

(32:23):
participate and play the game.
And I choose them reallycarefully for that, because the
temperaments, but turkey, youknow, just is like the key and
to like I am so happy to be hereand uh, with cats you can't do
a lot of Um.
Of course you can, you cangently push on their head and
say, please, you know, but butthere's not a lot of uh.
You can't put a lot of negativeenergy into cats because they,

(32:45):
they don't come up with it, theyjust they're like gone.
Why would they?
Why would dogs and horses andother domestics put up with an
awful lot?

Speaker 2 (32:53):
They really do like the stuff that we do to them
just to make them comply to ourPersonal opinions and it's not
necessarily fact, but ouropinions about how they should
quote unquote should or shouldnot behave In one person's
opinion might be different thananother's person's opinion.
So if you're working with arescue animal, that pet might

(33:13):
have learned that this isacceptable and now we're
suddenly saying it's not and I'mgoing to shock you for it.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Or I'm going to yell at you or hit you for it.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah, and.
But I've always done this andthis was okay in my previous
home, so I learned how tocommunicate this way, this way.
So let's say, your cat is onthe counter and you squirt it
with a squirt bottle.
Squirt bottles should only beused for plants, that's it.
Um, because that cat, like mycats, are allowed on counters
and tables?
I don't care, I mean for heavysnakes.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
it's like they need to be up to be able to look down
, especially look down on thedog because he's a lesser being.
Yeah, but no, cats think aboutwhere they come from.
They know they live in trees inthe sense, like they, you know,
move around high spaces to lookdown.
That's when they feel safebecause they're.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
They're a prey species.
They're predators.
They're very effectivepredators, but they're also a
prey species, correct, they're acombination of horses and dogs.
They're they need to feel safein their world, in an elevated
space, which is usually abovehuman hips.
Height is naturally,biologically, very attractive to

(34:20):
cats.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
So if they don't have an option, yeah they're, yeah
they're.
You know, cover your butter,they're going to walk on the
counter.
Yeah, get on.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
My butter has these weird little cat tongue groups
in it.
Yeah, so I don't even know alot of butter.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
We got a covered butter dish and the cat kept
wanting to knock it off thecounter.
Now I have one of the.
It's really heavy with a tightlid and it works.
But it was just.
You know.
She broke all my fiesta where,like boom, knock it off the
counter, get to that butter.
So yeah, but cats will do that.
So what's so?
Either A you tell a person tolive with cats walking on your
counter or don't have a cat, orwhat is your answer to something

(34:54):
like that?
When someone says this likewhat's a problem for me?
Not be might be a not a problemfor you.
Like people, people have thisparent.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
You know this view of the world, you know you know,
yeah, and I one thing I have onmy website I don't care if your
dog is standing on the diningroom table If you don't care.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
I saw that.
I loved it yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
But like I have a friend who teaches agility and
her dogs are allowed on thetables because she doesn't want
to suppress that, that's theirjob, yeah.
Yeah, and my opinion is, Iwouldn't want my dog on my table
, but if you're okay with it, Idon't care.
So.
So people are often embarrassedto tell me that their dog
sleeps in their bed or their dogis allowed on the couch because
dogs aren't supposed to do that.

(35:34):
That's not true.
Dogs can absolutely sleep inour beds and absolutely be on
our couches, if you're okay withit.
If you don't want that tohappen, we can modify that.
So let's say, cats on thecounter, making sure they have
vertical options.
So they're.
What is the function?
Are they doing it becausethey're bored and they want to
look out the windows?

(35:54):
Give them window seats.
Are they doing it because theywant to feel safe by being
higher up.
Give them cat trees and thenmake them not make them, but
convince them to choose thatalternative.
So what I often do is put afreestanding cat tree near the
counter and then, whenever I seethe cat on the counter, take
them off the counter, put themon the tree and then reinforce

(36:17):
that.
So let them know.
Whenever you're on the tree youget awesome stuff like turkey.
So I'm going to take you offthe counter and put you on the
tree and then give you turkey.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
That's very much like the limo the least invasive,
the least adverse, withoutcausing the cat a ton of stress.
So that makes, and then weshape behavior.
I mean, that's the banal actors, because we want them to be
happy.
I don't want them stressed, Iwon't do it, I don't want to do
things that cause them anxiety,and with horses, causing anxiety

(36:50):
is the main dangerous thingabout them if they don't feel
safe.
So I really love that approachthat least invasive, minimally
adverse.
That's great.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
And it works.
I work with cats and dogs thatbite people or are peeing all
over the house and I can achieveit without hurting them or
scaring them, so it can be done.
So if in sometimes I work witha case that I can't fix it, I'm
going to refer it to somebodywho's better than me because it
can be fixed.
So if you're working with atrainer and they say it can't be

(37:23):
done without scaring them orhurting them and they're not
going to use those words,they're going to say control or
stimulus that's the niceeuphemism for shock collar.
It's pain, it's not a stimulus.
It works on pain.
So if they tell you it has tobe done that way, then they're
not current on modern trainingtechniques and they're not

(37:46):
skilled enough to do it withreward based techniques.
And I've had cases in the pastwhere I was not skilled enough
to do it and referring them tosomebody else who is more
skilled than me and being humbleenough and having humility to
say I'm just not good enough orskilled enough to do this.
I can refer them to someoneelse.

(38:08):
That is, I think, the sign of atrue professional that can say
maybe it's me, maybe it's notthe technique.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Oh, absolutely no.
I mean, in my own case I'mlearning.
I have always been prettyintuitive with my dogs and cats
and animal actors, right, butI've been ignoring the horses as
far as understanding them inthe same way.
So I've had this journey overthe last couple of years of
discovering people like Warwick,Schiller and others

(38:38):
understanding those principlesof having the horse be regulated
, having him be in a state ofsafety.
And I never applied, I didn'thurt my horses like that, I just
didn't spend a lot of timedoing any of it because they
came trained and they were notshut down but they were
accommodating.
But then I got three horses,three Morgan mares.

(38:58):
I have Morgan's Morgan horsesfrom Montana, from the Montana
range, and so they came off therange for where they could see
for miles, miles and miles andwere minimally handled because
they're youngsters.
They were minimally handled toWisconsin, where I'm in a rural
area, but they still their sightline, like if you put them in
the barn they can't see thehorizon.
And the one mare that was alittle bit older had a lot of

(39:20):
anxiety about the fact shecouldn't see the horizon and it
just took me a while tounderstand that that's what it
was.
But now that I've you know overtime and patience and learning
how to regulate my own emotions,learning how to be completely
present with her and alsounderstanding what you were
saying, what are her needs?
She needs to see the horizon.

(39:40):
She needs to feel that theother horses are nearby.
She needs you know, all thosethings.
I've got to the point where Iget.
She's so relaxed and we're ableto keep moving slowly to the
next step because eventuallywe'll train her to ride.
She's four years old, so she'sjust coming to the age where we
would start back in here.
But there it takes as long asit takes and there's no but the

(40:01):
thing is about.
What I wanted to get to was Ihave a trainer who's helping me
because I am not capable ofstarting this young horse and I
need help.
And I found her.
She's on a prior podcast on thepodcast prior to you because
she uses what you're talkingabout the least invasive,
mentally adverse I didn't shedidn't call it that, but that

(40:23):
exists exactly what she's doing.
And then all the positiverewards and encouraging the
behaviors you want.
The main thing is making thehorse feel safe and not
progressing until the horsefeels safe, because we need to
stay safe and we can't be safeIf the horse is anxious.
Either he's going to shut downor he's going to explode, or a
shut down, then explosion cansurely happen.

(40:45):
And I bet the same thing canwork with a dog.
A dog can be shut down.
Then all of a sudden bite theneighbor kid and you're like
what?

Speaker 2 (40:50):
happened.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
And then it's like bad dog.
No, you know, something wasn't,something wasn't being met.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
So yeah, I had a case with a.
It was a beautiful chocolatelab and he was not getting along
with neighbor dogs.
So their trainer put a shotcollar on him and he would get
shocked whenever a neighbor dogcame near him.
But, as it turns out, if youlook at the bigger picture,
which is your trainer should beasking you about what your pet

(41:19):
eats, how much exercise they get, medical history, and looking
holistically at the big picture,the dog wasn't not getting
along with neighbor dogs.
He was resource guarding and hewas saying don't come near this
area or this thing, and so hewas learning, when he
communicated with the other dog,growling or snapping at the

(41:41):
other dog, that he would getshocked.
So he stopped.
And then one day he was on thecouch and the family had a child
, who was three at the time,walked near the couch and the
dog was guarding geographicspace and he didn't growl, he
didn't snarl, he did nothing andhe just nailed the kid right in

(42:02):
the face because he had learneddon't growl, don't communicate.
Snap gets you shocked.
Growling gets you shocked.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
So he had no connection to like you can't
like resource guard.
He never learned, he neverfigured out, shape that behavior
.
He just learned that if I'mgoing to bite somebody, I have
to do it without these, thesesignals to warn somebody.
I had never thought of it thatway.
That makes perfect sense.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
There's a meme or a quote that is on social media a
lot.
Punishing a growl is liketaking the batteries out of a
smoke detector it's the warning.
You're not dealing with thebehavior when you punish a growl
.
You're only dealing with theoutward expression of the
feeling.
You're not dealing with theactual feeling itself.
So I can't put the batteriesback in once that happens.

(42:47):
I can't reteach a dog how togrowl.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
So that dog no longer growl.
The expression we use withhorses is what happened before,
what happened, what happenedbefore what happened.
And if you've taken away thehorse's ability with her ears,
her lip, her expression, youknow turning to you to say like
I'm not comfortable, I might,you know, kick or bite, you're
not paying attention to what'shappening.

(43:12):
That's making the horse want tobehave that way.
Or a cat Cat warns you, tailstarts moving.
Cat warns you Says enough, nomore stimulation Done being pet.
And then you get nipped and yougo why'd you bite me?
You know, you, just you know,really, really need to give
animals a voice and that's whatyou're doing.
So I'm grateful for that.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
And especially with cats, because so often I hear
well, my cat only wants to bepet on their terms and the only
thing I can think is yes andyeah, right, so you can't just,
you can't walk up to a if you're, you know, a person on the
street.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
You can't just run up to a stranger on the street and
grab them and say, you know,will you come to lunch with me,
I really like you, and startputting your hands all over them
.
You know, that's gonna kind offreak them out, you know.
So you know the.
With animals I'm always carefulEven they're super friendly to
approach and retreat and to likelet them, let them see me,
smell me, get to know me, youknow, so that we can build a

(44:09):
bond and work together.
With a child, you know, even achild, I'm not gonna run up and
grab a child, I'm gonna get downon the level and I'm gonna
communicate softly.
And I learned, you know, if youturn your head away from a baby
and then bring your head backand their eye line and back and
forth, the baby is gonna like be, oh my goodness, you know, and
they're gonna want to be evenmore curious about you and feel
safer.
Just humans, right?

(44:30):
You know?
Yes, so children, animals,puppies.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
It's all creatures kindness feels good.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
I love how you said that kindness feels right.
Okay, well, um.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
A big thing is consent and control.
So giving them control, andit's not control over you, it's
control over themselves.
So control over what happens tome.
I have a say in what happens tome, which I think any sentient
being should have and Consent.
I give you permission to touchme or interact with me.
So letting a cat know I'd liketo pet you, can I pet you here,

(45:05):
and let them know that your handis coming, and then you know
your hand is here and then theyrub up against your hand, that's
them giving you consent and Idon't see why that's not okay.
I think it's okay for anyspecies if I don't want to be
touched, don't touch me exactlyand that's acceptable If you
allow them to be a sentientbeing, which they are there's no

(45:27):
petting sheep unless they wantto come up and be pat.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
I mean, yeah, people don't think about them that way
so much.
Especially there's a big herd.
Mine come up and they want tobe pet and I know all their
secret scratching spots, youknow underneath their armpits
and like you know behind theirears and stuff like that.
But it's interesting, if I havesomeone come, they'll come to
me because they're my babies.
Right, there's only seven, soit's not like a huge flock.
But I bring a stranger in andyou can tell right away by the

(45:53):
demeanor of the stranger Whetherthe sheep feel safe enough to
approach.
Because if the stranger justcomes and I say, especially
children, I'll say, okay, we'regonna sit down and we're gonna
be really still and quiet, let'stake some nice deep breaths and
they're gonna be curious andthey're gonna come over and and
by tell you, children are justso Excited when this works and I
and I say, no, when he comes toyou, let him just smell you

(46:15):
first, because these aren'taggressive animals, I don't have
to worry, right, and let's putyour hand out now, take your
hand away, put your hand out,take your hand and the sheep
just go like, oh, okay, okay,these kids are cool and then
they get to pet them and it'spretty fun.
But if you walk in, they're allbusiness and you're standing up
, you know, and you're likehovering over them.
Anything hovers over them oryou know that's.
You're gonna make them want togo away and it's a completely

(46:37):
different energy and it wouldtake a lot longer for them, if
at all, to come around thatperson you know, so Be being
kind feels right.
Being kind is, you know, withevery species, every sense and
things, just like you said, sothat Understanding.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Each individual is an individual.
So my other cat would let me dothat.
Okay, but that was your othercat.
That isn't this cat.
This cat has different geneticContent in different behavioral
history.
So you have to work with theanimal that's in front of you,
not the one that you rememberfrom your childhood or the the
other Golden retriever that youhad.
That's not the golden retrieverthat you have now.

(47:14):
Each in the animal is anindividual and they need to be
treated as an individual.
So if I have a goodrelationship with this woman, it
doesn't necessarily mean I'mgonna have a good relationship
with that one, because eachwoman is different, each man is
different.
Each cat, each dog, each horse,every individual creature is
its own creature and you have towork on the relationship with
that animal, not with thespecies.

(47:35):
It's a great individual.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Exactly.
You find that positive buildson positive.
That, yes, the more positiveinteractions, the more in
general Unless they've beenterribly traumatized, because we
find those with people as wellthe more like, encourage what
you want and then keep feedingthat and then you'll get more of
it.
And the same thing happens ifyou, if you are Encouraging bad

(47:58):
behavior by what you're doing,you're gonna get more of it.
So you're building up what youwant and I kind of ignore
behaviors I don't want, as longas they're not dangerous to the
animal or something you know.
Like horses will paw becausethey're bored, right?
Well, look at the environment.
What's causing them to paw?
Don't punish them for pying.
Find out what's in theenvironment.
You know that's causing thepoint and eventually, the more

(48:19):
regulated the horse feels, thatgoes away.
It's just not an issue.
Same thing with the nipping itjust goes away because you've
made them feel regulated and insafe, whatever.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
So well, this is my most behavior issues are a
symptom of a bigger issue.
It's this you want to treat thedisease, not the symptom.
So what is causing the behavior?
And it might be oh, they have athyroid issue or they're in
pain.
I have a client who's bitinghis owner because he has neck
pain.
So he's going to a neurologistand he's on pain medication.

(48:49):
Well, lo and behold, the bitingwent away.
Oh, exactly, wasn't a behaviorissue, it was a medical issue.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
No, I learned that.
I learned that early on byexperience.
I was working on set and Inormally now I audition every
dog.
I know every dog that comes.
I know every dog personally.
You know, I'm about what.
Our director wanted to usetheir dog.
We now have a rule about that.
No, no, no, they wanted to usetheir dog and it was a Rhodesian
Ridgeback and so it was a finedog as far as temperament, you

(49:16):
know like, got along fine andhe's fine.
She was on a dog bed and Ineeded to shift the position of
her hips, you know, and so Ikind of shaped her and this and
I gently touched her hip to justmove a leg, you know, and she
came up and I felt the wolf ofher, of her teeth, like she
could have tore my face off ifshe wanted to.

(49:38):
It was a warning.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
It was like you know Something again, and this is
what's gonna happen.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
So and I that never in all my years of business I'd
probably you know long, longtime, because I started way back
that it never happened.
A dog trying to, you know,warning me of a bite, right and
and I just kind of taken it backand I had to stop and think and
like, okay, whatever my othertraining that was with me went,
oh, look at her, think about it.
I said it and she said to theowner has she had trouble

(50:03):
walking?
Is there something going on?
Something's wrong with her hip,something's wrong that was.
That was a pain thing.
That was because and I didn'ttouch her heart or anything like
that it was just she was afraidthat it was going to get
painful by where I was, by justproximity, and it was completely
Related to that.
And so then they took her to thevet, found out his hip
dysplasia.
So you know, it was never thedog's fault, it was just the

(50:25):
human's not seen andunderstanding where the pain was
coming from.
And so now when I, you know, Ilearned that I'm gonna talk to
an owner, you know I auditionedthe dog, so I'm gonna know the
dog and see if there was anyhealth issues that I need to be
aware, you know, oh, there'ssomething that she doesn't like
his ears should not touch hisfoot.
You know, is there something Ineed to know so that I can be
fair, right, yeah?

Speaker 2 (50:44):
yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
I learned.
I learned that like check firstphysical, you know physical
first.
Same with horses saddle doesn'tfit, it's uncomfortable,
chiropractic issue, you know,those are all things.
Immediately you go to firstbecause if they're uncomfortable
it's gonna come out.
You can't work with a terribleheadache, you know.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
You can't work if your arm is broken, I'm not
gonna be in a place to receivethe information that you're
giving me, process it andremember it and then function
within the parameters thatyou've given me.
An animal.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
If I feel comfortable , I can write, but animals are
so stoic you got to really payattention.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
Yeah, and cats really don't communicate Medical
feelings no, they communicate indifferent ways.
So like if your cat is peeingon your bed, usually that means
they're asking.
They're communicating with theperson that they're bonded with.
I'm peeing on your bed notbecause I'm mad at you, but
because I'm asking you for help,and I'm peeing on the spots
that smell like you becausethere's something wrong.

(51:38):
I might be stressed or I mighthave a medical issue going on,
but they're always communicating.
It's never random.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
That's, that's what that behavior is, the behaviors
communicating, for sure.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Absolutely oh.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
This has been pretty Informative, I think our
audience, our audience is gonnajust really absorb a lot.
You have just a great way ofcommunicating complex principles
, because I was.
I'm a simple person and so whenyou're able to put it into
language that I can understand,it's a great benefit.
We're coming to the part of theshow that we call cake break or

(52:12):
pie time or whatever it is, soI don't know if you can see, but
I got really nice piece ofchocolate.
Yeah, we're all gonna.
If you were here, we'd bedefinitely sharing that, and
that means that we're gonna getto the questions that I sent you
.
When I do a podcast, I send outan intake form, which you
filled out, thank you, and weask we give you a series of like

(52:33):
20 questions and then you'reable to pick from those five
questions that you would likeasked.
This is an idea that weborrowed from work.
Sheller is a horse trainer.
I mentioned before Horseadvocate and he borrowed it from
Tim Ferriss's book A tribe ofmentors.
So just want to give credit forcredits, do here and so the
questions that I want to ask you, the ones you picked.

(52:55):
One of them is what is the mostvaluable thing that you put
your time into that has changedthe course of your life?

Speaker 2 (53:04):
I would say my education, whether it's formal
education, in school or on myown, reading, taking courses or
experience and going out andpracticing the things that I've
learned, and because sometimesyou learn by doing and I can,
and I know there's a lot oftrainers out there that know
everything theoretically butthey can't actually do it, they

(53:26):
can't apply it.
So I think that's part ofeducation, so getting the
information from different waysand then practicing.
So I think education for anyperson, regardless of what
you're working on, is animportant thing to shaping who
they are as a person and shapingtheir career.
Oh it's impacts how I interactwith people and with animals

(53:47):
just on a daily basis and in myown home.
So the way my cats interactwith me is very different than
my first cat.
It's a completely differentrelationship.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Oh sure, but sounds to me that you've always been
curious, which is the mostamazing trait, because that
leads to education and learning,and so I mean I can see that,
and that's that's wonderful.
The next question is whataccomplishment are you most
proud of and why?

Speaker 2 (54:14):
That's a good question.
I would say it's not like aformal accomplishment, but I had
a stroke about a year a yearago, january Wow.
And overcoming that, I think,was my greatest accomplishment,
because I couldn't walk, Icouldn't talk, and Learning how
to do that again.

(54:35):
And now I'm doing cross fit andI can talk again.
So, like, this side of my faceis a little bit droopy but I
going to therapy to work on that.
It took me about a year, a yearand a half, to get fully back
and mentally getting that back.
So practicing, rebuilding thoseneural connections and physical
connections and being able tomove my arm again, because

(54:55):
that's like devastating.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
That's a whole nother podcast we're going to have to
come back because I mean, thatis an amazing thing and it takes
what it takes.
You know it takes as long as ittakes and healing of any form
you know always takes longerthan we want.
You seem extremely resilientthat you've been able to come,
and I bet the animals were a bighelp in that healing process,

(55:18):
absolutely.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
I had my cat snuck into the hospital.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
I've done that.
I brought one to my niecebefore they allowed therapy
animals and you know I snuck herup the elevator, this kitten.
So because, yeah, becauseanimals really, really help, I
do.
I think we have to come backand do a whole nother episode
about that, because people canrelate to that and that I didn't
know.
That that's that.
I'm glad you're on the mend.
That's a great thing, thank you.

(55:43):
But that's a hugeaccomplishment Staying alive.
Yeah, you know, pulling through, yes, it's different, letting
my brain kill me.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
That was a good accomplishment.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
Exactly and everything is different.
I'm sure it's different, and sogetting used to different is a
whole battle in itself.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
And accepting the new me was very difficult.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
I can imagine, especially since your sense of
curiosity, your, yourintelligence, your, you know
education, being able to retainall that and feeling like you
might lose that must have beendevastating.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Yeah, it was very difficult.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
Can we please come back and have another
conversation about that, becauseI do feel that that would be a
really good subject that peoplecan understand.
Okay, what is?
Oh, I always love this questionwhat is the worst advice given
in your profession or bad ideathat you hear of in your field
of expertise?

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Dominance, being dominant to your dog.
So dogs form packs.
The exact same way families areformed amongst humans.
So it's not necessarilygenetically related.
It's individuals who enjoy thecompany of each other, and
members of the group come and go.
So humans form friendships andrelationships and you know your

(56:54):
chosen family, or perhaps yourbiological family, and some
family members come and go andfriends come and go, and that's
how dogs form their families.
So they don't have like twoleaders and then a nice little
lined up ducks in a rowhierarchy of other dogs in the
group.
They have individuals and theycommunicate cooperatively, so

(57:14):
they work cooperatively.
You're in charge of dinner, I'min charge of laundry, so with
dogs one might be in charge ofraising the puppies and one
might be in charge of gettingfood, and this one helps get
food and this one defends theterritory.
They have differentresponsibilities and those
responsibilities shift betweenindividuals.
So there's not a dominancehierarchy.
They are equal individuals thatshare responsibility for the

(57:39):
health and well being of thepack.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Okay, there you go For sure.
What quality do you admire mostin people?

Speaker 2 (57:48):
I think kindness To common theme with our animal
people.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
It's a common theme.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
In two animals, and to the environment, to yourself,
to other humans, in just doingsomething that doesn't cause
harm by choice, even if it'smore difficult for you.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
For sure.
I think it was Victor Francowho said something to the lines
Our job is to end sufferingwhenever we can.
But if we can't end thesuffering, we can't add to it.
The world would be a lot betterplace if we could always follow
to that.
Okay, and then what have youbecome better at saying no to?

Speaker 2 (58:31):
I would say giving away free services.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
You got to pay your bills.
I mean in the end.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
This is my job.
I find, when I give freeservices, those that advice is
very rarely heated, so like if Igo to family functions like
Thanksgiving or something.
Okay, now everybody's going toask me, all the big my cats not
using a litter box, you need todo this, this and this.
No, I'm not going to do that.
Okay, well, try this.

(59:02):
No, I'm not doing that.
What?
Are you asking me.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Yeah, it's like the doctor, you know, like they ask
the doc, you know the doctorgoes somewhere, or dentists, or
I get asked all the time becauseI'm an animal actor trainer,
and what about my dog?
And I'll go like well, I couldtrain him on set.
That's all I know, because I doknow more of it, but I don't
have to go into it.
I recommend, you know you mightwant to try this, this person,
this place, this, you know,whatever.
So I totally get that.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
Yeah, and when I travel I don't tell anybody what
I do.
I say I'm an administrativeassistant at an accounting firm,
because nobody asks that personquestions.
You're undercover.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
I love it.
I love it.
Okay, so where can we find yourbook fetching the perfect dog
trainer and getting the best foryou and your dog?
Where can we find?

Speaker 2 (59:47):
that you can find that on Amazon or through the
publisher, which is dog wise, sodog wisecom.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Okay, we're gonna have all these notes on the, on
the links, you know, on thepodcasts and things like that.
There'll be links to yourwebsite and Facebook page and
where we can find your book andthings like that.
But what would you like to?
Is there anything coming upthat you'd like to tell?
I mean, this podcast will liveforever, we hope.
So.
Timing maybe, and maybe not somuch, but like in general, okay,
somebody wants to contact you,wants to work with you, wants to

(01:00:19):
have you come speak atsomething because you're really
eloquent, wonderful speaker.
I'd recommend anybody thatwants because, like I said, you
can take complex things andbreak it down to levels in
entertaining interesting.
I don't feel stupid talking toyou Sometimes when I talk to
people that are really smart, Ifeel kind of dumb, like I'm just
not getting it, but you explainit in such a way that I can

(01:00:40):
understand, so I'm grateful forthat and I bet our listeners are
too, thank you.
How do we, how do we get intouch with you, how do we find
you?
What, what, what's the process?

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Go to my website, jonesanimalbehaviorcom.
So if you need help with yourpet, there's resources there, or
I can help you or I can referyou to somebody who can help you
.
Or if you're looking for, likeI do, sessions at vet clinics or
shelters and trained shelterstaff and volunteers or at
community events and just talkabout general animal behavior or

(01:01:08):
dealing with dogs or dealingwith cats, so I do events
through my website or an articlefor whatever publication.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
So there's a lot of a lot of information on the
website.
You can just spend a lot oftime reading what she's shared
up there from even other peopleand facts and things.
So there's a lot to.
There's a lot to take in.
You've done a it's, it's agreat service.
I think the world is better forit.
I think the pets are better forit.
So appreciate that.
Well, this has been really fun.

(01:01:39):
Oh, you know, before we go, Ishould mention you mentor other
animal trainers and that'sreally important.
Yes, I'm sorry, I'd like I wantyou to speak just a little bit
about that, please.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
I do one mentorship through IAABC, which is the
International Association ofAnimal Behavior Consultants, so
I do a mentorship through themand I also do a mentorship
through my friend has aconsulting business called
Ipacampus online and I do amentorship for if somebody's
thinking of becoming a catconsultant or is working as a

(01:02:08):
cat consultant, helping themwork through different cases and
connecting them with other catconsultants.
So we share cases with eachother and discuss well, I have
this weird.
Have you ever seen this?
Okay, usually it's one of ushave seen something like that.
Or I found this product.
What do you think of this?
Oh, I know that company don'tuse that product, or yeah, that
product is great.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
So it's not so up here in network.
A way of helping each other,that's great, yes, which then,
of course, helps the animals.
So well, this has been a reallyinformative, wonderful time
with you today.
Katina really appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
Thanks for thanks for takingthe time, and I'm sure people
will look up things and learnthings, and that's what this
show is all about.
You're a perfect fit for theempathetic trainer and we thank

(01:02:52):
you again for coming.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
Thank you so much for having me and for offering this
podcast, because I think it's awonderful resource for people
and empathy is probably the mostimportant thing that we can do
for our pets, so I think it's agreat thing to have.
So thank you for offering that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Well, thanks right back.
Perfect.
All right, I'm just going tojump on in here real quick Now.
It was a really greatconversation.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Oh good.