March 24, 2024 • 55 mins
In this interview, Barbara O'Brien talks with Kara Wilhelmsen from Creature Comforts Pet Services about her approach to animal training. Kera stresses the importance of kindness and understanding when working with animals, rather than using fear or intimidation. She shares her experiences working with dogs, including her own challenges with a reactive border collie named Tayla. Kera emphasizes using positive reinforcement and empathy in training, focusing on relaxation techniques and behavior modification. She also discusses the need for owners to learn about science-based training methods and the importance of reading dogs' body language. Kara warns against quick fixes and misinformation in training, and encourages empathy and compassion in both human and animal interactions.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer, and I'd like to
welcome you to the empathetictrainer.
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien andwelcome to the empathetic
trainer podcast.
Today's guest is Cara Wilhamsen.
She is the owner of CreatureConference Pet Services, where
(00:36):
she offers dog training,behavioral classes and home
visits.
Cara believes that patients andcompassion are important parts
in wanting to live with ourcompanion animals.
Well, I can't disagree withthat and we're really glad to
have you here today.
Thanks for being our guest.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Okay, well, when I put out the, I think I think how
we connected was when I put out, when I first started the
podcast I put out there onFacebook and social media I was
looking for interesting peopleand that are following that same
kind of path that I'm learningmore and more about, which is
having empathy and compassionand understanding of our animal
(01:15):
our dogs, our cats, our horsesprincipally, but all animals and
I'm pretty sure you were kindenough to respond and so I put
you on the list of someone andnow we're catching up.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, no, it was very intriguing to me as well, so I
love the direction.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
So we've been looking over your blog and the other
things you're doing and it'sreally nice to see you're
obviously quite a bit youngerthan me and that's great, and
it's really nice to see a youngperson so early start out
already having this in hand,like already coming from that
approach.
Because when I was growing up,the way that we treated animals,
(01:55):
well you know, it wasn'thorrible obviously.
I mean, I didn't grow up, butwe were taught a different way
and even back then it was likethey don't even have feelings
like that quit amorphous sizing,quit saying like they have the
same feelings as humans, which,of course, you know, down in our
heart we knew that wasridiculous.
But even scientifically nowthey've proven that, because
(02:19):
we're all mammals, which meansat least not at least mammals
that we're working with, andthat means we're animals too.
So why wouldn't we experiencetrauma in a similar way?
Why wouldn't we experiencehappiness?
Why?
So why wouldn't animals beallowed to have her?
You know, we're not amorphoussizing, they are feeling things.
(02:40):
And their brains are verysimilar, so that's what I want
to talk to you about a littlebit, and so we'll get to that.
First, I want to start out likehow did you become what you're
becoming and what you're doing?
And then I want to go into moreof the feelings and emotions
and the whole empathetic thingthat we're trying to do.
But how does, how do you get tobe you?
Because that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah Well, it didn't start out with being around a
lot of animals as a kid.
I actually didn't grow up withmy parents having animals, so it
must have just been meant to be, because I always was obsessed
with animals and learningeverything I could about them.
And it wasn't necessarily justdogs.
At first I did.
I was interested in horses andcats and everything too.
(03:22):
But I just had the opportunityto work at a boarding place.
My mom's friend knew someoneand talking dog love being
around dog.
Yeah, yeah, yep, dog boarding.
They did some daycare too, butmostly boarding, and I kind of
just got into that a lot and Iended up becoming like a manager
type of person there, a crewleader, they called it so that
(03:44):
had helped run the facility andit kept growing.
And then they started offeringgrooming and training.
So try my hand at grooming Notfor me.
I give them lots of props.
It's very stressful and hard onyour body.
But I was a little bit toostressed there because I was
always caring about the animalsbeing really stressed in that
environment.
I didn't feel I had enough timeto kind of help them.
(04:06):
You know, be okay with what wasgoing on and everything.
So got into the training, Ikind of assisted with some
training there for a while inthat same sort of facility and
fell in love with it.
I will say kind of like youmentioned back then I'm trying
to think of how many years agothis was probably 20 years ago
they were doing things that Ididn't feel right about them I
(04:28):
got.
There were, like you know, promcollars and lots of things.
One of the things that I'mpassionate about is words.
Words matter.
I have an English degree,actually from one on a state
university.
So enjoy writing and stuff.
But it was very clear to meright away that I didn't gel
with everything and luckily I'vealways been a person who
(04:51):
questions what's going on andwhy things are the way they are
and I don't just follow becauseit's the status quo.
So I knew that I wanted to dostuff a little bit differently.
I didn't want to necessarilyeven call it obedience, because
that means you know it's likemilitant, you have to obey.
I want to call them cues, notcommands or cue you it's okay if
(05:11):
you don't figure it out.
You know those types of things.
So I picked up on a lot of, Iguess, what I wouldn't do the
same there, and so I gotinterested in finding where else
I could learn information from.
So while I was in college forEnglish, I went to it's called
animal behavior college and it'syeah, it's an online well,
(05:32):
mostly online.
It's about maybe three quartersish online learning and,
funnily enough, I already feellike I knew everything, just
instinctively.
But the best part was actuallythe in person mentor program.
So, yeah, it was great.
I got hooked up with the, Ithink the biggest, one of the
biggest, if not the biggestplaces in Rochester.
(05:52):
Positivities dog training andRochester, Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, okay, yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
New York when I know yeah yeah, and the owner was my
mentor, so she had already gonethrough a lot of stuff so she
gave me so much good advice andthen, right after my mentorship,
she hired me on.
So I started assisting with abunch of classes there and I did
Jill with 99.9% of the stuffthat they were espousing and
(06:21):
explaining to people and howthey went about things.
So it felt more of a fit and Ijust was also loving being
around trainers, so other peoplethat had the same ideas and
passion as I did.
But I was one of the few thatwas like I want to do this full
time somehow someday.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, and that's not an easy thing to do, it's not.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
No, most of them are doing it kind of like an evening
.
I'll do classes here and therein addition to their full time
job.
So it wasn't even 2015, 10years ago.
It's kind of a new likefull-time position or whatever
you want to call it, career, Iguess that is coming up where
(07:02):
you can be a full-time behaviortrainer.
So back then it was just classes, right, classes, classes,
classes.
That that's all what peopleknew.
Left of my dog has issues.
Go to a class that'll solveeverything, which it doesn't.
So knowing all the stuff weknow now with science is when I
started reading the books mymentor told me to read and go
(07:22):
into conferences.
I Loved hearing about all thebehavior Scientific background
stuff now that we know much moreabout, as you said then we have
ever and I felt like I wantedto do More than just classes.
So that's when I startedgetting into learning about
specific behaviors likereactivity, fear, you know,
(07:44):
aggression or whatever thosethings.
But it also helped that at thetime I had a border collie mix
who had a lot of her ownbehavior stuff going on that I
didn't really just instinctivelyknow what to do about it.
I cared, but I didn't know howto help her.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Well, let's, let's talk about, let's talk about her
and the issues you faced at thetime, and then like, how did
you learn to?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
help.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Her regulator, whatever it is that she needed
to do.
I have yeah to border colliesin a border colleague or a
collie cross, you know.
So I I do get them.
I'm a little biased, I love theherding dogs, you know yes, so.
There are a lot of dogs, yeah,and luckily I live on a farm, so
this is the best border collielife One could have, because
there is, I mean, so much run,play, you know, do their job.
(08:32):
They're she, yeah, so minedon't have.
I've been lucky, you know.
I mean they have there, butwhen you don't have an
environment, that's, that'sperfect for a border collie
Sometimes things can happen, andthen also there's a lot of
variation in border collies.
You know the drive things likethat, so please tell me about,
about your border collie.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Her name was Taylor, and she was my second dog.
My first one was a pug, so hewas just chill, you know, bred
to be a lap dog.
He was very sweet, but All thedogs I've owned so far have had
bad Past situations, though, andhers was as a very, very young
(09:12):
puppy, she had been attacked bya dog in the first household she
was in.
So then she Friend of a friendtype of situation fell into my
household at the time and I wasstill in college, towards the
end of college.
But so, yeah, I wasn't in, Iwasn't a rented house, but it's
still was like I had to go toschool and stuff.
So I did what I thought youshould do with the puppy,
(09:34):
because I never technicallyowned, especially a very smart
that wanted to do things all thetime.
So she was one of those, likeyou know, chew on cords, tear up
things like oh, she got myshoes.
Like I had to learn the hardway with a lot of things because
the pug was not the same.
Yeah, it was a border collie.
They're very, very different,but I learned pretty quickly.
(09:54):
She was smart.
But part of being sointelligent is a lot of these
intelligent dogs to easilyalmost make connections,
associations with things.
So like for self-preservation,they're being hyper aware of
everything, hyper vigilant, andshe went okay, dogs are bad.
So I was attacked by a dog.
We went outside on walks andthen she went oh, there are
(10:15):
people with dogs.
So now people are bad becausethey're associated with.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
And then it was oh, movement,because border collie herding,
bridge movement got her very, ofcourse, going there, so it
became just basically anythingso people on bikes, rollerblades
.
It became cars then becausethey had wheels and it would
(10:36):
move by fast.
So basically I felt like Icouldn't have her outside of the
house.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
It must have been overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I mean, that's, that's a lot for anyone, yeah,
especially at that age where I,you know, I didn't have at that
point the trainer.
You know, support group, Iguess.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Basically that I have now where I can kind of bounce
average person in that casewould be like this dog's too
much and they would you know,like that's it and they'd be
Homer or whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
But of course, being me, I was like I don't want to
give up, I just don't know whatto do a lucky dog.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
But let me say something about how they make it
a quick association, or whatdid you said something like that
, right?
No, let me.
When you said that.
It reminds me of something Withan animal actor trainer.
We audition, you know, dogs tobe animal actors, so people will
bring their dogs to set, andI've got strobes set up and
we'll take a photo right and 95%of the dogs aren't really
(11:34):
bothered by the strobes.
Now we take our time introducingthe strobe, we don't just throw
them out there.
We we know, we gradually getthem close, we make sure they're
not being bothered.
But the border collies, someAussies, they go like the sky is
freaking, exploding, just likethey are so quick to go.
This is not real life.
You know something's wrong,because the vast majority of the
(11:58):
dogs that are bothered by thestrobes are gonna be really
highly intelligent.
You know Paying attentionbecause they're like really
watching their environment, notto say other breeds.
It happens in other breeds too,but we bred them to be off,
that it's gonna be a bordercollie who says, nope, the sky
is exploding.
We, mom, we got to get out ofhere, you know yeah, and then we
(12:18):
make him do it.
I mean, we just go, okay, we getit no no, because it's not,
it's not like we have to do it,I will not stress a dog out
right here, that's not no so but, and I love, no, it's not worth
it.
Why would you do that?
But uh, no.
So I understand what you'resaying when you say, okay, then
it grew into this and then itgrew into that, you know.
So go on.
You were, yeah, you were likeoverwhelmed, so then what?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, so once I kind of coinciding with getting that
mentor, I would bounce thingsoff of her and then, at like,
every book I read, everyconference I went to, I learned
more that made me understand herbetter.
As in okay, this is more of adeep-seated thing.
There's nothing that I can do.
(13:02):
That's just going to be like aband-aid, because that's not
going to actually help long-term, which is what a lot of old
school kind of traditionaltraining was.
Let's just make the surfacething stop.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
And what would be the answer to that?
Like I was told when I had aGerman Shepherd who I got when
she was six, seven months old,so it didn't start her as a
puppy would worry, and they said, well, have her sit.
Have her sit and think aboutand somebody give her a treat.
It was like, but we're notsolving that the dog turned out
to be fine.
But it wasn't solving theunderlying.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I was just talking about this the other day, like
sit was the answer to everythingback then.
It was just have your dog sitand then they can't do anything
bad If they're sitting andstaying.
That solves everything.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Until it doesn't, or laying down Right Until it
doesn't.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Right, no, but it really, it really just doesn't.
It's just kind of trying tocontrol a situation that they
didn't know enough about?
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Did it bring up the dog's anxiety?
Why, by being told to sit andstay, does their anxiety go up?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Of course it definitely does, because you're
taking away options.
Right, you're saying okay, youcan't show your full body
language, which is how theycommunicate.
They can't do the flight partof fire flight, like there's
just you're not listening.
Yeah, it's the same thing withhorses.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
They're going, okay, same thing with horses or cats.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, like I don't trust this person because
they're not listening to me andactually helping me.
They're just trying to controlme and have me do one very
specific thing, but it doesn'thelp the underlying thing.
It's kind of like, you know,putting a bandit on a bullet
wound, like that's not, that'snot going to do much, it's not
going to help long term, likeit's you got to get to the root
of it all, because if you helpthem feel better, they're going
(14:38):
to act different.
Which is what you're looking tosolve is the actions, but it's
the.
It's the emotion behind whythey're acting the way they're
acting.
If they're afraid of something,they're probably going to bark
at it to get it to go away, anda lot of what we think of as
aggression is a lot of it's justthey're afraid of something,
they're unsure what's going tohappen, they don't trust it,
they don't like it, they want itto go away.
(15:00):
So they act tough and bark youloud and they kind of.
You know they do all thosethings that look scary to us,
but it's supposed to be becausethey're trying to get the thing
to go away.
They're trying to tell the dogto not come near them.
They're trying to tell theperson they don't trust,
whatever it is.
They're outwardly showing thosethings.
But as people like we don't likethat, we don't like growls,
we're not supposed to thoughinstinctively, because that's
(15:22):
survival instinct.
If a wolf growls at you or abear like you know, you're not
supposed to think that's a greatthing.
It's just you don't want tojust have them not vocalize what
they're feeling, because thatdoesn't solve the feeling.
So don't worry so much aboutthe vocalization, but let's
think of why they feel the needto vocalize like that.
What are they feeling?
(15:43):
That we can help?
Because if they feel betterabout the situation or their
triggers, they're not going todo those things.
But it's also good information.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
And how?
Because the horses are the sameway.
I keep going back to that, butlike a horse is pying right, and
then the old school thing wouldbe like get after him for pying
.
You know, like okay first ofall, why is he pying?
And then, if we get to the wherehe can regulate and not feel
the need to paw, it's like themore work you're doing to make
him feel better what you justsaid then those problems take
care of themselves instead ofgetting after a particular
(16:13):
action.
You know so how exactlyhappened then.
So you have her and you taught.
You see the problems.
Then what happened?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yep.
So I learned about likebehavior modification because
there was a couple of things atthe place I was working
possibilities where they wouldhelp people with those.
So I learned a couple of keythings.
One, just to help her learn theskill of relaxation, because
she didn't know they don't, Imean just like us, they're not
born just knowing how to relaxin all different situations.
(16:44):
So I actively worked on herlearning the skill of relaxation
, which sounds weird becauseit's kind of the act of doing
nothing.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Well, it's self regulation right.
I mean in a sense selfregulation.
It's like when we teachchildren, basically children.
It's okay.
Take a deep breath.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yes, so you're.
You're also this is the keypart that I had to learn.
That helped a lot was I neededto calm down too.
So if I saw her triggers, Istarted getting, you know,
triggered, and so she would gooh, mom's worried about
something, where is the thing?
And it just made it worse.
So I had to do I tell peopleall the time I'm like you can in
really be freaking out, that'snormal, but I really just take
(17:23):
some deep breaths and be calmand calmly talk to them and
that's going to help them feelmore secure because they're
watching us.
Does it help the owner?
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Does it help the owner too, because you can't
fool a horse.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, it does eventually.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
You can't fool a dog, a dog knows what you're feeling
, whether you pretending or not.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
For sure, yep.
So I say it kind of starts withit's kind of like a fake it
till you make it but it also,yeah, but it's also telling them
and having them understand whatto do which is my next part
helps them feel more confidentin the situation, because then
they know how to react to theirdog doing these things or how to
be proactive about having themhave that behavior.
(18:03):
Behavior modification happensso that they feel better.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So what is the plan?
What do they do?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
That's a great thing, but yeah, so after the
relaxation, because you can dothat at home and kind of start
that going.
The other part is the behaviormodification where it's
basically like classicalconditioning to an extent here.
So watch the world is thephrase of the I forget who
coined that but it's basicallygoing okay.
(18:29):
You're going to go to a spacewhere the triggers are, but
you're going to have distanceenough from the triggers that
your dog is still it's calledadd or under threshold.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, over threshold.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Over threshold is the crazy add, or under threshold
because they can't learn ifthey're over the brain is the
executive thinking is shut off.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It's gone.
Yep, so they just care aboutthe trigger.
At that point they're just kindof seeing one thing, worrying
about one thing.
But when they're at or underthreshold they still will take
food.
Which food is going to helpwith multiple things?
One it does help them kind ofturn off, almost the kind of
flight or flight type of brainwhere if you're eating the body
goes oh, we're in rest anddigest.
(19:11):
So to a certain extent the bodycalms down because you also
have to chew and swallow andbreathe and all that stuff kind
of happens, but it helps thebrain that way.
You know there's dopamine, justlike with us eating makes us
good quickly.
So stress, eating all that stuff.
But so food helps with that,but also the watch the world is,
specifically you connecting thefood, the feel good, that stuff
(19:34):
with their trigger.
So, for example, if I'm sittingat a lake we haven't known that
there's a lake and dogs arewalking around it I can sit back
in the field and when a doglet's just say it's dogs that my
dog is barking at or you knowreactive to the dog starts
showing up and I start treatingmy dog just for knowing the dogs
there in the distance and thesecond that dog goes out of
(19:57):
sight, I stop.
So it's every time one comesyou get that connection going.
So it's not just sightnecessarily tell people to.
It's like if they know it'sthere, because you know that dog
can be looking at something andlook away and be looking at you
, but they know that's stillgoing on.
Their ear might still be kindof twitched back there or they
(20:17):
might be kind of glancingbecause they're keeping an eye
on it, but it's just knowing thetriggers present, getting that
very distinct connection of you,get this stuff to make you feel
better and connect that withthe trigger, which also does
double duty of having them go.
Oh, I'll look to you in caseyou have something good when I
see the trigger coming.
(20:38):
So I'm not forcing them, by theway, to look away, because that
is a thing that used to happen alot, where they're like, just
have them look at you and sitand ignore the trigger.
But that also just isn't anatural thing, right.
Like, if you're worried aboutsomething, you're going to want
to look at it.
And I'm okay with my doglooking at things.
That's normal.
I look at stuff when they walk,you know something walks by or
(20:59):
squirrel shoots out a tree onour walk on the, look at it.
But it's how they feel, again,that matters.
So I don't care if they'relooking at it or not.
Now I still worry about, like,if they start to, you know, inch
up the threshold a little bitso they start to get too stary
or, you know, get too tense, andI can tell it's too hard.
If it gets too hard, then thatjust means you need to create
(21:21):
more distance.
So distance is the variablethat we work with, with watch
the world.
So the farther way, the easierthey're going to have a time
learning and feeling.
You know, learning basically,but it's a process, right, it's?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
not overnight.
This is going to take time.
I mean, you know it takes timeto reset.
You know build safety.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
It's like habit making breaking.
Yeah, it's definitely.
You basically are building up aneurological pathway.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
You're trying to have them go down this pathway when
they see their triggers, insteadof this old one that they are
people are you finding peoplemore open to wanting to take the
time to do this versus I'm justgoing to get rid of the dog,
you know?
I mean like, because it feelsto me like back in the day which
is you know, and there's still,of course, a lot of poor dogs
that are dumped, and you know, Imean they just kind of get a
job but our people.
(22:09):
Is there a trend to peoplewanting to be better owners?
Do you see that?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I do think so.
I think that unfortunately,sometimes it stems from trying
everything else first.
So then I or people like myselfthat do behavior, this, this
kind of way with the sciencebased knowledge kind of, are
their last resort becausethey've fallen for these quick
fix guarantees of people whoaren't actually certified
(22:35):
trainers, that are trying tojust do the band-aid thing or
use something to basicallycontrol the dog or make them
afraid of even reacting.
So a lot of times they've comefrom that.
So then I actually have to do alittle bit of, you know,
rebuilding and shaping andhaving the dog trust them again
and all that stuff.
But but I will say more andmore, it does seem like people
(22:56):
are actively looking for thekind of situation that I offer,
which is going at itscientifically and pathetically,
like making sure that they'recomfortable with what I'm doing
to their dog and that theyunderstand what's going on
because I teach them.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, you know, I make sure they understand.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, everything right, like how do how to read
their dog, because everyoneshould know that.
But they don't ask necessarilyhow to read their dog, how what
thresholds are and how to workon the watch the world and all
that stuff.
And I write them a very, very,very detailed email because
writer and I give them lots andlots of information and I give
them resources, because Peoplejust Google stuff now and it's
(23:37):
you're never gonna know whatyou're gonna find.
You're gonna find the oppositesand person you know a that
doesn't know anything.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
They don't know which one to go with, they're just
gonna be guessing we find thatwith the dogs that come in, so
it's, we're gonna see a widevariety of owners that want to,
you know, get their dog intoshowbiz, right, and and we see
some dogs that are handledexactly like you're talking
about and these, you know, it'sa joy, right, I mean, these dogs
are gonna be fine.
And we see other dogs and theyit might even be a young dog and
(24:05):
it doesn't need a prong collar,it just this, just, you know,
there's just, and I'm like, hey,your dog is really sweet.
I just don't, you know, youknow why, and they go.
That's what they told us.
It was like, whatever schoolthey're going to, it's like
that's the default and that'sthe behavior we're gonna do.
And if you are a, if they'reopen and and you can say, you
know, maybe you try thisapproach instead.
(24:27):
You know, we just had thathappen recently, you know, and
then so she switched schools andher dog is, I'm so grateful, is
so much happier, for it isgonna be fine, you know, but it
was.
I love that, yeah, but they needto be open to that you know so
yeah, yeah, it's a whole anotherway of thinking about things.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
So I definitely feel like I do a lot of like human
psychology when I go to theseone-on-ones at people's houses,
because I have to Read theperson to and figure out where
they are as far as what theythink of even just dogs, so like
are they property?
Should they just do everythingthat you say and not you know
All these types of things to seewhere they are.
And then I start laying afoundation of well, here's what
(25:08):
we know now because of science.
Because usually if you say that,yeah, credibility a lot of
people kind of go oh, okay, yeah, science and the kind of
questioners or naysayers.
I can usually pick those outright away and I also give them
you know some knowledge of whatto look for in the trainer,
because even if they don'tconnect personally with me, I
(25:28):
want them to understand what tolook for as far as like.
Are they, are they credible,right or do they have good you
know knowledge?
Do they continue theireducation?
Because If they're doing thesame thing they've done 20 years
ago, we know better now.
So anyone can call themselves atrainer.
Unfortunately, they're workingon it, but there isn't.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
It's an honor, it's just anything in the horse world
.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Which scare?
It scares me, because it scaresa lot of us trainers, because
any Joe Schmo can tell you to,just you know, shock your dog
anytime they do something bad.
Yeah, we, uh what I got it.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
We had that happen to .
A gal came in with a niceenough dog or whatever, and she
had a shock collar on it and thedog wanted to say hello to us
because it was excited.
Yeah, she was shocking it Forwanting to be friendly and I'm
like stop, stop, stop, you know.
Stop right now.
Yeah, do you know we're?
We have a different collar here.
Or take this off, you know, Isaid we because what is she
(26:22):
teaching that?
Not to be nice, you know becauseI just couldn't see any issues
in the night.
You know I I'll hug, I getreally up.
I don't I'm gonna go there, Ijust get so upset about that,
you know.
So I hear you totally.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I also told her.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I said yeah, I told her we can't use your dog.
You know if you're gonna be, ifthis is your methods, we can't
work with you.
You know, and so I don't knowwhere she went with that, you
know.
But but it was like what areyou thinking?
Why?
You know I don't.
I think they get told something.
They honestly I don't thinkthey're trying to.
(26:55):
I don't think they understand.
No you know, that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I think you're right.
I think a lot of it's naivete,like they just don't know what
they don't know and they willjust listen to someone because
it's if you make it sound good,you can make anything sound good
like.
I have had dogs my whole lifeand I've trained them all with
this truck color and they're allperfect.
So if you do this, I promiseyour dog will be your idea of
perfect.
And they say that and someonegoes okay, why would they not
(27:20):
buy in and trust that,especially with all the?
Usually they give kind of thekind of key phrases or words of
like I guarantee, like they'llbe, like it's a little bit kind
of too good to be true.
And then it is a type ofsituation but, yeah, people just
want quick help and when theyare told that if they do
something it'll help in aninstant, that's they'll kind of
(27:42):
latch on to that without knowingthere's an alternative,
necessarily and Unfortunatelyusing fear, which usually
punishment, it's kind of allbased in here, right or
intimidation Using thatunfortunately it does work right
.
So, like, technically, whatthey're looking for to happen
tends to happen.
The dog feels somethingnegative, so then they stop,
(28:03):
they try and not do whateverthey need to do to not get that
negative feeling.
So fear and intimidation work.
I mean, look at there's likeour military, like there there's
definitely fear, intimidationhave been used by people forever
, even in classrooms back in theday.
Like fear and intimidation,they work to get very obedient
results and black and white, butthey don't take into account
(28:26):
feelings, emotions and how dogslearn, how people, how any kind
of relationship with your dog isusually broken.
When you start to do that andthat's one of the things I say
to people is I do want your dogto like, trust you and like you
and not be afraid of you Like,don't you want your dog to like,
and then you can kind of seethem going.
Oh yeah, I guess it wouldn'tfeel good if I got zapped every
(28:47):
time.
But you know, they have toreally kind of get into the mind
of the dog and again beempathetic and understand that
that's not actually gonna helplong term, so it only works
Short term.
And when I say works, it justlooks like it's helping because
the dog might shut down.
Yeah, because they don't wantto feel that right, so it's.
It's like an outside againthing versus working on the
(29:07):
inside.
So if I see a trainer that justsays I do this for every single
dog, I always use punishmentfor every single dog, I always
do shock eyes, whatever it's,they're just not knowing enough
about each individual dog.
First of all because not justnot just a black and white world
, not one size, that's all.
And then also they're justfeeding on the basic, you know,
(29:28):
idea of fear can work andintimidation can work to get
someone or something to do whatI want them to do.
But it doesn't have anything todo with how dogs Can learn
without having to.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, if you're trying to learn something, if
somebody hits you every time youmake a mistake.
I mean, how are you gonna learn?
You're not gonna learn yourtimes tables that way.
You know four times for whack.
No, you know, you're not gonnalearn.
And, of course, man was animalsin a way.
So so then, what happened withyour, your, what was, I'm sorry,
the sweet dog's name, theborder collies Taylor.
So you got Taylor, you, youunderstood.
(30:02):
So then how did Taylor herselfget helped?
What, what were you able to dofor her?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I did just that.
I worked on relaxation.
There's something called therelaxation protocol that dr
Karen overall created.
That I worked on, where I justshe was on a mat and I held her
learn that I can walk around,her noises can happen, things
can happen kind of like theherding breed thing, where I
wanted her to be used to thingshappening around her and not
worrying about it.
(30:27):
So I did that she would getcalm treats for things happening
around her and she justpracticed that in our house and
then outside of the house I didthe watch the world, so I would
go to places where I knew thatthere would be dogs and people
of course too, but but I wouldgo at times, specifically when
it wasn't super busy, becausethat would have just been
setting us up to feel so lessgoing on, but I could have a
(30:51):
clear sight line of them comingand going, so it wasn't just
constant right, right, you knowtriggers.
Yeah.
So there's a little gaps inbetween and I would only do it
for maybe five or ten minutesand then we go home and take a
break and rest.
And I do think that I Don'tknow why I did that specifically
because I wasn't necessarilytold that, but I have learned
since then.
(31:11):
It's a very key thing is to notjust overdo it with our dogs,
not to just go, go, go, drill,drill, drill until they have to
tell us they're done, by kind ofhaving to melt down.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Oh yeah, no, I understand that completely,
because we work on, said youknow, we train in the lectures,
right yeah and that's itstresses, you know.
So, just being in the studiostress.
Okay, now you're on a newpeople stress.
And now you're on set now,luckily, because I've worked
with these dogs, have met them,I know which dogs absolutely
love it.
You know, like like this is acheese treat day and they get
(31:42):
excited.
Yeah, I mean.
And so because we don't wedon't use dogs that don't love
it, because, a it's not rightand then B, they don't look good
on you, don't look, it's not.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Same.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Thing with a cat.
You know, I mean, Mike.
Cats like to do the studio work, because you're not gonna make
a cat do anything.
I mean there's no obedience.
No so you know they have beensame thing with those other
animals I work with.
So the I will tell I'm on setand I'll just go dogs done or we
need a break and then like they, you know, if the photographer
who 99% of the time of coursethey're good and they know what
(32:14):
you know they're doing it, butif they miss it in the time
frame, you know, because they'renot ready, I'm sorry.
Dog is done because I want himto come back Yep next time and
be just as happy.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I want to.
Yeah, exactly, you don't wantto kind of taint it, right, no,
and so we do it.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I'm watching him before he starts telling me he's
done.
I'm watching him beforehandbecause you know you might have
a five-minute window to get yourshot.
But you know, sorry, dude, youknow you weren't ready.
That's on you, you know.
I mean we're really luckybecause the people we work with
are so intuitive and so great.
But I've also feel like I havetrained.
You know, like I've trained.
Yeah, seriously to understandthe limitations of that.
(32:53):
It's a dog.
My favorite thing to do, yeah,my favorite thing to do is
they'll.
They'll give you a complex set.
We want him to walk under set,pick up the toy, shake it, turn
around, lay down and then lookat camera.
And I always look and look athim like I'll tell him because,
like you know, yeah, that's ahuman, he's gonna do one thing
at a time.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah one one action, yeah, to break it all down.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah, but it's just so funny because I always have
to go.
I'll tell him and we'll seewhat happens, because you know.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah, I always joke that they don't know our
language.
They don't.
They are not.
Aren't verbal species like us,where they are, like they don't
English and all this stuff?
I'm like they.
99% of what they do is bodylanguage and so if you're not
listening, it means you're notlooking for it, like you got to
actually try with them, likethey just are.
We're kind of their world, likethey really quickly learn us.
They learn what we look like,what we sound like, what we do
(33:43):
when certain things happen.
They can learn to read ourfaces so well.
There's some cool studies therewhere they can especially their
people with facial expressionsand everything like that.
But yeah, they're brilliant atthat stuff because it's kind of
word, their world in a certainway Right, like a lot of stuff
revolves around us.
But yeah, it's amazing how manypeople don't even know some
basic Body language, like youknow communication that dogs are
(34:06):
trying to say something like.
I will look at a dog and go,okay, your dog is really unhappy
right now and someone will haveno right, and it's not that
they don't care, it's that theyjust don't or the goal, like I
don't know, I don't know whathappened.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
He just, he, just all of a sudden bit that person.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah, there's basically now such.
Usually there's several warningsigns that they just aren't
aware of before somethinghappens.
So I have to kind of get to thenitty gritty of the timeline of
things.
And, hey, do you remember whattheir body looked like when you
did this?
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, they're the famous horse trainer who said
what happened before whathappened.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yep, totally.
It didn't just come out of theblue.
Something usually triggerssomething and sometimes it's
just a troubleshooting,problem-solving game where I'm
like, okay, is it because thisdog physically doesn't feel well
and the kid pushed whatever itphysically could be?
That could be part of it too.
It doesn't have to just bemental, it can be the dog's
(34:58):
getting older and has arthritisand so it doesn't want to do
something.
I had a trainer friend whosedog wasn't grabbing things
anymore and holding them intheir mouth and she ended up
learning that the dog had afracture too.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Oh, yeah, it's hurt, it would make sense.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Right, but like you wouldn't know otherwise because
the dog was still eating.
But yeah, it was just one ofthose things where, if something
is different, there's somereason.
We got to just get to thebottom of the reason.
And yeah, they're alwaystalking.
That's why I tell people I'mlike they're constantly saying
things.
You just got to learn how toread it.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Do you find that that energy plays a big part in this
, like our energy around them?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yes, it really does.
There are definitely peoplewhere I can tell that they're
just so frustrated with theirdog that it's hard, because you
can see the dog and then bothkind of at odds just in the room
right away.
I can tell that there's not agood relationship Because if you
are constantly stressed justlike if a dog's constantly
(35:56):
stressed you have all thesestacking stressors and not
enough time to regulate.
You know you're on a hairpintrigger like there's.
You're not going to be able tohandle things that you maybe
even could have handled before.
Like I'll see someone getreally frustrated about some
teeny little thing and I'm like,okay, there's something else
going on.
You've had a hard time for awhile now and you just need some
help learning that some thingsare natural and that we can do a
(36:18):
couple of things that'll helpyou guys and to rebuild that
trust back up, because it is arelationship, it's not just a
one way you know thing andhaving people learn that they're
also not most of the time off.
You know.
Of course I'll say you know,you're not doing anything wrong,
you just don't know what to doand that's why I'm here and it's
okay.
You know, we're going to haveyou learn these things and even
(36:39):
just getting someone who'sunderstanding like that does
tend to help the people almostimmediately.
I will have people that willsometimes cry or hug me and be
like I feel so much better.
It's not me, I'm not ruining mydog, you know, and all that
stuff and they're like I justwant to have a good relationship
with my dog and I'm like I knoweveryone wants to have a
harmonious household Like that'sright, that should be a normal
(37:00):
thing.
But yeah, it's definitely justthere's a lot of just not enough
knowledge on dogs in generaland that's why education for me
is such a big thing and I'm kindof more and more in my career
I'm kind of zooming out andwanting to figure out places
that I can, you know, give thatknowledge and have education in
just basic dog stuff like bodylanguage, communications, how to
(37:23):
interact with a strange dog.
You know, all these kids anddogs.
I mean there's a lot of thingsthat if just more people knew it
would really, really help.
And if we had people understandto get that information from
right behavior you know,certified trainers, behavior is
not just their neighbor, theirfriend, their groomer, their
breeder, their vet which, thatbeing said, that's our great
(37:43):
task for a lot of advice, butthey're they're not technically
just behaviorists and I'veworked at several that, by the
way.
I love doing that.
It's very stressful environmentas well, very draining
emotionally.
But they are like, yeah, wedon't really get.
You have to basicallyspecialize it and in it.
And I was like I know, which iswhy you guys probably feel bad
when you get asked for adviceand you just kind of have to
(38:05):
guess on the spot to try andhelp them if you don't have a
trainer, you know.
But having worked at two vets,they both now recommend people
to me because they're like, oh,at least I can give them
somebody who knows right.
Who is a behaviorist, but I getlike people could naturally
gravitate towards asking maybethe vet if they think of you.
Know someone who might?
Know, you know the sciencebehind behavior or something
(38:25):
like that.
But it definitely is one ofthose things where, the more we
get you know vets to work withtrainers or even breeders to
recommend a trainer, instead ofjust giving behavior advice
Sorry my clock, I don't know ifyou're gonna be able to hear
that, but it plays a song everyhour, okay, but yeah, it's
definitely something thatcollaboration is helpful, and
not just you know.
The ego needs to go away too.
(38:45):
There's definitely some of thatwhere you know that you work
with dogs, that doesn't mean youknow everything about dogs.
I'm not, even though I groomedfor like six months.
I'm not going to give groomingadvice.
I'm going to send someone tothe groomer.
You know I'm not going to.
You know, just pretend I knowthings or just try and help,
because you know you don't knowwhat else to do.
I want everyone to kind ofcollaborate in a way or at least
(39:07):
know where to go.
At least just go.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Here's a great resource, here's someone who and
again, to do that they need toknow what to even look at Right,
Because I remember a few yearsago there was a very popular
television show with a fellowthat was using methods that we
just kind of find abhorrent, youknow, but you'd have to know
that because it was very popularyou know oh yeah, it's the time
it's like.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
It makes it sound good.
Yeah, and they want to believeit.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I don't know how I'm like you know.
Yeah, you know what I'm talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
I know exactly what you're talking about.
It gets me very upset too.
Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I'm really glad that the world has changed in the
sense that there's so muchinformation out there.
But, like you said, it's amatter of finding the right
information, and we've beenreally lucky on the podcast to
have people who are advocatingfor better treatment and
understanding of animals.
That's pretty much our focus,and so you've been fantastic
because you're totally exactlyexpressing what I believe and I
(40:06):
want more people to hear.
So let's talk about that,because you mentioned that's
what your future goals are.
Because, first of all, let'stalk about what you're doing
right now, so that we'll beadding all of your links and
information, you know, to theshow notes so that people can
reach you, but what you're doingright now.
But I was also interested inwhat you had mentioned for your
future, which sounds prettyexciting and helpful for all the
(40:28):
dogs out there.
I mean, it's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, no, it's definitely.
Currently I've gotten to thepoint.
Instead of focusing on kind ofdog care or any of that stuff, I
am, like I said, really honedit on the training.
But I think of it as justbehavior and training because
they kind of are a little bitdifferent things than I tell
people.
When I say behavior, that'smore of an all encompassing
thing, whereas training that'sjust teaching dog skills,
(40:53):
usually right Like it's kind of.
But I want to focus more on thebehavior stuff because I want
to help people as much as Ipossibly can, but doing it with
just one person at a time.
While that is fulfilling, Idon't feel like I'm doing enough
.
For what I can, like myknowledge that I have, I want to
just be able to give to as manypeople as I possibly can.
(41:15):
So that's why I'm looking atthe industries within it, right,
that I people that touch dogs,so vet scrimmers and all that
stuff.
But also recently shelters andrescues.
I just spoke at one of themlike an internal.
They had all their dog people,volunteers come and I spoke
about dog body language and Ileft that feeling like I did so
(41:37):
much good because there's like30 people that asked a bunch of
great questions and I knew thatthem handling dogs all the time,
especially string, you know andstress the dog stress
constantly Exactly, and so itjust felt like I touched more
you know lives that will thentouch dogs lives, and that
really ignited a flame in me andI kind of had a feeling from
(41:57):
the beginning like I kind ofjust want to speak, lecture,
help the people understand thedogs.
I will still always love workingwith dogs, but to be able to
have more of a you know effect,more change in this world, I
need to touch more.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
A bigger platform, as it were.
A bigger platform.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yes, yes, yeah, yep.
So I kind of I do want tobranch into doing that.
I do think I don't know if thisis necessarily where I will go
in the future, but I havethought about having finding a
way to have vets, have you know,maybe one, maybe one
behaviorist or trainer, kind ofon call or on staff to send
people to because it's such abig part of what they I mean.
(42:39):
Again, I've worked at vets.
I was always one who had tohold the dogs because I
instinctively knew how to helpthe dog plunge down and hold
them, but not feel like I'mholding them so that they could
relax while things werehappening and I would say, oh,
they're over it, I need, theyneed a break.
You know, there's someone thatknows those things to train the
vet techs, who do most of theholding of dogs, or anyone,
(43:01):
anyone, anyone that would toucha dog.
Again, groomers, I mean, eventhough I don't have the grooming
skills, I would know how tohandle a dog better because I
would be reading them constantlyand I would be okay taking
breaks when they're specificallyneeded and I would work
everything around the dog.
Dog centric you know it's muchmore dog centric.
Yes, yes, so I mean long, longterm.
(43:25):
It'd be great if I could evenjust start facilities that kind
of had multiple different things, where I was training trainers
to know behavior and then alsohaving them get connected with
different within differentindustries to kind of either go
to to help other people learn,so kind of teaching people to
teach people.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Yeah, oh, I think that's a brilliant idea.
I hope you know I think dogswould be better off for it.
I think it's brilliant idea tocombine resources in one place
for people.
You know, like it was abeautiful boarding facility or
doggy daycare or whatever youknow and they have like and
they're doing things right.
Okay, but to have that addedpart of like, hey, if you're
(44:03):
having specific issues, you knowhere's our on call person or
here's the seminar you can go to, or here's, you know, or the
big, you know, the shelters,like you say, or you know it's
probably difficult to monetize.
So I hope for the best for you,but I know that's always the
thing with training.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
It's always like, Okay, how can I do what I love?
But also, you know, make aliving, and it's only fair.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
I mean, I get that.
You know our podcast is notmonetized.
It's a labor of love because Ijust want to get this message
out.
But if somebody came along andsaid, hey, we'd like to create
something bigger out of this,I'd be like Sure that, a bigger
platform so we can get themessage out, you know, and then
make a little living awesome,but you know, so I get it.
I get it what you're saying, butI know that your heart
certainly in the right place forthe dogs, and helping the
(44:49):
people will help the dogs, sothat's exactly All right.
Well, we're to the part of theshow where we, we I sent some
questions to you, and there arequestions that we borrowed from
a book called Tim Ferriss's.
Oh gosh, tim Ferriss and I'mblanking out on the name of the
(45:10):
book because I haven't said itout loud.
So, tribe of mentors, thank youAnyway.
I wanted to give credit becausewe totally, you know, borrowed
this idea.
This tribe of mentors questions, and it's also what we call
let's see if I can hold this upsnack break.
These are some Cardinal cherryscones.
(45:30):
That's what they are.
Yeah, yeah, because I feed mycrew and we're done because
that's a food's part of we'realso food made of it, motivated
just like the dogs.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, exactly Right, it's the question time.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Okay, so what is the worst?
Advice given your profession orbad idea that you hear of in
your field of expertise?
Speaker 2 (45:52):
I mean, I guess an all encompassing one is quick
results.
I mean to try and geteverything done as quick as
possible, because nine times outof ten, and maybe even ten
times out of ten, if you're justgoing for quick results to get
things taken care of, you'regonna probably go for harsher
methods because you're notactually taking time to learn
(46:14):
about the animal and figure outa way to help them.
That's going to not just begood for you but for them, which
should be the goal.
So yeah, the quick fixes arethat's not the goal.
The goal should be, you know,quality of the information that
you're getting and how to learnabout helping your dog in a way
(46:35):
that's empathetic.
I guess I love it.
I work for it to make sure thatOkay.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Okay.
What inspires and motivates youto do what you do?
What is your true purpose inthe world?
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah, honestly, from I can remember thinking this
from being just a little girl.
I always felt like I had to bea voice for animals, because
they don't have a voice in theway that we think of it, like
speaking right, they can't standup for themselves in the way
that we're used to even seeingfrom people, and I always wanted
to be like a voice for theanimals, so kind of speaking
(47:12):
through them, going okay, thisis what your dog is feeling, how
can we help them with thefeeling?
So it's not just it's being avoice for them, but also in the
way that I'm helping peopleunderstand that voice too, if
that makes sense.
So connecting them to peoplemore, with them and their voices
.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Oh, absolutely no.
That makes perfect sense.
What quality do you admire mostin people?
Speaker 2 (47:35):
I definitely empathy and it is and passion.
I've always compassion andempathy are words that have
ruled my my whole life, becausethey're very easy not to have.
I feel like it's more of like Ireally am happily surprised
(47:56):
when I see people I connect wellwith because they have the same
type of empathy.
I feel like empathy rules myworld.
I feel like if I got one youknow personality trait, it's
empathy like that.
I just that is who I am.
So I feel like having otherpeople that I find ever that
have it.
I always will connect with them, whether they're empathetic
(48:18):
about it's passionate aboutcertain other, you know things.
It's the empathy where you canput yourself in other shoes when
you care about the well-beingof others, even if it doesn't
affect you.
That is something that I reallycherish and think is super
important for me.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
I wish there was more .
You know, I have to agree.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
I do, I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Okay, what have you become better at saying no to.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Lots of things.
One, it's just kind of, ingeneral, standing up for my
energy.
I guess I'm.
When I say that, I mean I don'tlet myself burn out as much as
I used to because I could beworking constantly.
I used to work a lot.
I used to do like 20 classes aweek and then I do stuff on top
of that and while it's good, Ialways, you know, would burn out
(49:08):
in the end anyway.
So it's like, well, I can'thelp people if I'm burned out
right.
So I have to learn to say no tocertain things that are gonna
take too much energy, which iswhy I landed in this part of the
field, because I was gettingburned out.
In veterinary care I wasgetting burned out, you know,
grooming burned out really best,and even in boring and daycare
it's just a lot of physical andI would see all these animals
(49:29):
and their emotions and not beable to do something about it.
So protecting my energy and myemotional well-being has been a
huge thing.
So that might mean saying no to, you know, having too much of
my time taken up.
It might mean saying no to, youknow, physically interacting
with people for a day, because Isometimes just need to.
I have, like an autoimmunedisease and other things going
(49:51):
on with myself that I just needto listen to more than I used to
.
So luckily, the right peopleunderstand so if I need to say
no to something I have, a good,yeah, you know support system.
Now that understands and a lotof my clients, the good ones,
understand oh yeah, I mean, youknow when they're, when they're
on the same level as you.
If you can't understand thatI'm human and sometimes need to
(50:13):
say no, then we might not beable to.
You know, work together wellanyway.
So I need to be okay withpeople maybe not understanding
me, but I just need to listen tomyself and protect my energy.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Okay, all right.
The other question was if youcould send a message to the
world, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (50:33):
I feel like they need to be super poetic here, but in
general, the idea is I wantpeople to understand that what
they do and how they act affectsothers, including animals and
dogs.
So thinking about what you'redoing before you're doing it and
understanding that what you'redoing is going to affect
(50:56):
something else or someone else.
So, like you have rippleeffects, like one negative thing
can affect someone's whole dayand then they might be a little
bit more, you know, grumpytowards someone else and it just
kind of negativity can spread.
And it goes with animals, likeI said too, where you know, I
just like to pause and havepeople just think about okay,
(51:17):
well, what I'm doing isn't justgoing into the void, it others
around me are being, so it'sjust self-awareness huge and it
really does help with beingempathetic.
It's like you kind of need toactively work on that to be able
to understand and again, itgoes with with dogs too.
If you're understanding howwhat you're doing affects them,
(51:40):
it makes it.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Sure, for sure.
No, that's, that's.
It's a good message, all right.
So then, how do we get it?
If somebody wants to learn moreabout what you're doing, how do
we find you?
I mean, we'll have these links,but let's, let's have you share
everything you'd like to aboutall that sure, yeah, I have a
website.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
It's wwwccpsmncom, and it has kind of a long bio on
myself and it has all myservices on there my blog, which
I need to post more on there.
So look forward to that comingsoon.
I'm getting there and then Ialso now on there, you will see,
have virtual classes.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Oh, I was gonna ask you about that because that you
know hopefully more people thatcan see this, can, you know,
work with you virtually, whichwould be great so?
Speaker 2 (52:26):
yeah, because I want to be able to help people that
aren't just in my radiusphysically.
I mean, I would like to helppeople around the world if
possible.
So virtual learning isobviously more common now than
when we had certain things inthe world happen.
So I want to be able to connectwith as many people as possible
and answers many questions or,you know, help people with their
specific dogs, whatever itmight be.
(52:49):
Even just having like lecturesthere, where it's like if you
all you care about is one topic,there's an hour.
You know that you can go on andlearn about that.
That's something that'ssomewhat new, but I'm hoping it
picks up a little bit and takesoff because, like you said, that
that's just connecting morepeople right like I.
I just want to be able to dothat, and a lot of people, if
(53:09):
they're sitting at home, justpop on.
It's like a podcast.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
You can just pop on and watch something or listen to
something for a little bit oftime.
You know, have severalsubscriptions to horse trainers
because they are putting outinformation.
That is where I'm learning overand over again you know how to
be better with my horses andit's so inexpensive.
I mean, when you have a modelthat you subscribe, it's, like
you know, so inexpensive fortons of information that's so
(53:35):
useful, and then you can usuallyfind a community of like-minded
people who are following thesame thing and then you can talk
about it more and yes, yes,that was what I was thinking of
doing too.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Like I am in the works of having like a patreon,
which will have a community onthere, and I'm gonna have like
PDFs that you'll have access toand things like that and videos
and topics you can do.
You know, question and answersor people.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Yeah, no, it's pretty , it's limitless and I need is
out there and you know, becauseI live like what?
70 miles from a city center,you know, a big major city from
like I'm out the country, and adog-crain school to physically
take my dog would be 30, 40miles one way, you know, you
(54:21):
know so and that might not evenbe what you need.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
You might need one right exactly so.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Being able, to you know, learn things remotely is a
is also a great way besides thein-person stuff.
I am glad that you're in theworld for our dogs and for the
helping the people with theirdogs and we really appreciate
you coming on our podcast todayand, like I said, everyone,
she'll have all of ourinformation carries, information
(54:47):
on the website and I betthere's a book in there
somewhere.
You probably got a book youknow you're gonna be working on
and yeah, it's in the works justusing that right.
There you go.
So thank you so much for forcoming on.
We really appreciate it.
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer, and I'd like to
welcome you to the empathetictrainer.
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien andwelcome to the empathetic
trainer podcast.
Today's guest is Cara Wilhamsen.
She is the owner of CreatureConference Pet Services, where
(00:36):
she offers dog training,behavioral classes and home
visits.
Cara believes that patients andcompassion are important parts
in wanting to live with ourcompanion animals.
Well, I can't disagree withthat and we're really glad to
have you here today.
Thanks for being our guest.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Okay, well, when I put out the, I think I think how
we connected was when I put out, when I first started the
podcast I put out there onFacebook and social media I was
looking for interesting peopleand that are following that same
kind of path that I'm learningmore and more about, which is
having empathy and compassionand understanding of our animal
(01:15):
our dogs, our cats, our horsesprincipally, but all animals and
I'm pretty sure you were kindenough to respond and so I put
you on the list of someone andnow we're catching up.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, no, it was very intriguing to me as well, so I
love the direction.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
So we've been looking over your blog and the other
things you're doing and it'sreally nice to see you're
obviously quite a bit youngerthan me and that's great, and
it's really nice to see a youngperson so early start out
already having this in hand,like already coming from that
approach.
Because when I was growing up,the way that we treated animals,
(01:55):
well you know, it wasn'thorrible obviously.
I mean, I didn't grow up, butwe were taught a different way
and even back then it was likethey don't even have feelings
like that quit amorphous sizing,quit saying like they have the
same feelings as humans, which,of course, you know, down in our
heart we knew that wasridiculous.
But even scientifically nowthey've proven that, because
(02:19):
we're all mammals, which meansat least not at least mammals
that we're working with, andthat means we're animals too.
So why wouldn't we experiencetrauma in a similar way?
Why wouldn't we experiencehappiness?
Why?
So why wouldn't animals beallowed to have her?
You know, we're not amorphoussizing, they are feeling things.
(02:40):
And their brains are verysimilar, so that's what I want
to talk to you about a littlebit, and so we'll get to that.
First, I want to start out likehow did you become what you're
becoming and what you're doing?
And then I want to go into moreof the feelings and emotions
and the whole empathetic thingthat we're trying to do.
But how does, how do you get tobe you?
Because that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah Well, it didn't start out with being around a
lot of animals as a kid.
I actually didn't grow up withmy parents having animals, so it
must have just been meant to be, because I always was obsessed
with animals and learningeverything I could about them.
And it wasn't necessarily justdogs.
At first I did.
I was interested in horses andcats and everything too.
(03:22):
But I just had the opportunityto work at a boarding place.
My mom's friend knew someoneand talking dog love being
around dog.
Yeah, yeah, yep, dog boarding.
They did some daycare too, butmostly boarding, and I kind of
just got into that a lot and Iended up becoming like a manager
type of person there, a crewleader, they called it so that
(03:44):
had helped run the facility andit kept growing.
And then they started offeringgrooming and training.
So try my hand at grooming Notfor me.
I give them lots of props.
It's very stressful and hard onyour body.
But I was a little bit toostressed there because I was
always caring about the animalsbeing really stressed in that
environment.
I didn't feel I had enough timeto kind of help them.
(04:06):
You know, be okay with what wasgoing on and everything.
So got into the training, Ikind of assisted with some
training there for a while inthat same sort of facility and
fell in love with it.
I will say kind of like youmentioned back then I'm trying
to think of how many years agothis was probably 20 years ago
they were doing things that Ididn't feel right about them I
(04:28):
got.
There were, like you know, promcollars and lots of things.
One of the things that I'mpassionate about is words.
Words matter.
I have an English degree,actually from one on a state
university.
So enjoy writing and stuff.
But it was very clear to meright away that I didn't gel
with everything and luckily I'vealways been a person who
(04:51):
questions what's going on andwhy things are the way they are
and I don't just follow becauseit's the status quo.
So I knew that I wanted to dostuff a little bit differently.
I didn't want to necessarilyeven call it obedience, because
that means you know it's likemilitant, you have to obey.
I want to call them cues, notcommands or cue you it's okay if
(05:11):
you don't figure it out.
You know those types of things.
So I picked up on a lot of, Iguess, what I wouldn't do the
same there, and so I gotinterested in finding where else
I could learn information from.
So while I was in college forEnglish, I went to it's called
animal behavior college and it'syeah, it's an online well,
(05:32):
mostly online.
It's about maybe three quartersish online learning and,
funnily enough, I already feellike I knew everything, just
instinctively.
But the best part was actuallythe in person mentor program.
So, yeah, it was great.
I got hooked up with the, Ithink the biggest, one of the
biggest, if not the biggestplaces in Rochester.
(05:52):
Positivities dog training andRochester, Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, okay, yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
New York when I know yeah yeah, and the owner was my
mentor, so she had already gonethrough a lot of stuff so she
gave me so much good advice andthen, right after my mentorship,
she hired me on.
So I started assisting with abunch of classes there and I did
Jill with 99.9% of the stuffthat they were espousing and
(06:21):
explaining to people and howthey went about things.
So it felt more of a fit and Ijust was also loving being
around trainers, so other peoplethat had the same ideas and
passion as I did.
But I was one of the few thatwas like I want to do this full
time somehow someday.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, and that's not an easy thing to do, it's not.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
No, most of them are doing it kind of like an evening
.
I'll do classes here and therein addition to their full time
job.
So it wasn't even 2015, 10years ago.
It's kind of a new likefull-time position or whatever
you want to call it, career, Iguess that is coming up where
(07:02):
you can be a full-time behaviortrainer.
So back then it was just classes, right, classes, classes,
classes.
That that's all what peopleknew.
Left of my dog has issues.
Go to a class that'll solveeverything, which it doesn't.
So knowing all the stuff weknow now with science is when I
started reading the books mymentor told me to read and go
(07:22):
into conferences.
I Loved hearing about all thebehavior Scientific background
stuff now that we know much moreabout, as you said then we have
ever and I felt like I wantedto do More than just classes.
So that's when I startedgetting into learning about
specific behaviors likereactivity, fear, you know,
(07:44):
aggression or whatever thosethings.
But it also helped that at thetime I had a border collie mix
who had a lot of her ownbehavior stuff going on that I
didn't really just instinctivelyknow what to do about it.
I cared, but I didn't know howto help her.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Well, let's, let's talk about, let's talk about her
and the issues you faced at thetime, and then like, how did
you learn to?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
help.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Her regulator, whatever it is that she needed
to do.
I have yeah to border colliesin a border colleague or a
collie cross, you know.
So I I do get them.
I'm a little biased, I love theherding dogs, you know yes, so.
There are a lot of dogs, yeah,and luckily I live on a farm, so
this is the best border collielife One could have, because
there is, I mean, so much run,play, you know, do their job.
(08:32):
They're she, yeah, so minedon't have.
I've been lucky, you know.
I mean they have there, butwhen you don't have an
environment, that's, that'sperfect for a border collie
Sometimes things can happen, andthen also there's a lot of
variation in border collies.
You know the drive things likethat, so please tell me about,
about your border collie.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Her name was Taylor, and she was my second dog.
My first one was a pug, so hewas just chill, you know, bred
to be a lap dog.
He was very sweet, but All thedogs I've owned so far have had
bad Past situations, though, andhers was as a very, very young
(09:12):
puppy, she had been attacked bya dog in the first household she
was in.
So then she Friend of a friendtype of situation fell into my
household at the time and I wasstill in college, towards the
end of college.
But so, yeah, I wasn't in, Iwasn't a rented house, but it's
still was like I had to go toschool and stuff.
So I did what I thought youshould do with the puppy,
(09:34):
because I never technicallyowned, especially a very smart
that wanted to do things all thetime.
So she was one of those, likeyou know, chew on cords, tear up
things like oh, she got myshoes.
Like I had to learn the hardway with a lot of things because
the pug was not the same.
Yeah, it was a border collie.
They're very, very different,but I learned pretty quickly.
(09:54):
She was smart.
But part of being sointelligent is a lot of these
intelligent dogs to easilyalmost make connections,
associations with things.
So like for self-preservation,they're being hyper aware of
everything, hyper vigilant, andshe went okay, dogs are bad.
So I was attacked by a dog.
We went outside on walks andthen she went oh, there are
(10:15):
people with dogs.
So now people are bad becausethey're associated with.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
And then it was oh, movement,because border collie herding,
bridge movement got her very, ofcourse, going there, so it
became just basically anythingso people on bikes, rollerblades
.
It became cars then becausethey had wheels and it would
(10:36):
move by fast.
So basically I felt like Icouldn't have her outside of the
house.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
It must have been overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I mean, that's, that's a lot for anyone, yeah,
especially at that age where I,you know, I didn't have at that
point the trainer.
You know, support group, Iguess.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Basically that I have now where I can kind of bounce
average person in that casewould be like this dog's too
much and they would you know,like that's it and they'd be
Homer or whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
But of course, being me, I was like I don't want to
give up, I just don't know whatto do a lucky dog.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
But let me say something about how they make it
a quick association, or whatdid you said something like that
, right?
No, let me.
When you said that.
It reminds me of something Withan animal actor trainer.
We audition, you know, dogs tobe animal actors, so people will
bring their dogs to set, andI've got strobes set up and
we'll take a photo right and 95%of the dogs aren't really
(11:34):
bothered by the strobes.
Now we take our time introducingthe strobe, we don't just throw
them out there.
We we know, we gradually getthem close, we make sure they're
not being bothered.
But the border collies, someAussies, they go like the sky is
freaking, exploding, just likethey are so quick to go.
This is not real life.
You know something's wrong,because the vast majority of the
(11:58):
dogs that are bothered by thestrobes are gonna be really
highly intelligent.
You know Paying attentionbecause they're like really
watching their environment, notto say other breeds.
It happens in other breeds too,but we bred them to be off,
that it's gonna be a bordercollie who says, nope, the sky
is exploding.
We, mom, we got to get out ofhere, you know yeah, and then we
(12:18):
make him do it.
I mean, we just go, okay, we getit no no, because it's not,
it's not like we have to do it,I will not stress a dog out
right here, that's not no so but, and I love, no, it's not worth
it.
Why would you do that?
But uh, no.
So I understand what you'resaying when you say, okay, then
it grew into this and then itgrew into that, you know.
So go on.
You were, yeah, you were likeoverwhelmed, so then what?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, so once I kind of coinciding with getting that
mentor, I would bounce thingsoff of her and then, at like,
every book I read, everyconference I went to, I learned
more that made me understand herbetter.
As in okay, this is more of adeep-seated thing.
There's nothing that I can do.
(13:02):
That's just going to be like aband-aid, because that's not
going to actually help long-term, which is what a lot of old
school kind of traditionaltraining was.
Let's just make the surfacething stop.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
And what would be the answer to that?
Like I was told when I had aGerman Shepherd who I got when
she was six, seven months old,so it didn't start her as a
puppy would worry, and they said, well, have her sit.
Have her sit and think aboutand somebody give her a treat.
It was like, but we're notsolving that the dog turned out
to be fine.
But it wasn't solving theunderlying.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I was just talking about this the other day, like
sit was the answer to everythingback then.
It was just have your dog sitand then they can't do anything
bad If they're sitting andstaying.
That solves everything.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Until it doesn't, or laying down Right Until it
doesn't.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Right, no, but it really, it really just doesn't.
It's just kind of trying tocontrol a situation that they
didn't know enough about?
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Did it bring up the dog's anxiety?
Why, by being told to sit andstay, does their anxiety go up?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Of course it definitely does, because you're
taking away options.
Right, you're saying okay, youcan't show your full body
language, which is how theycommunicate.
They can't do the flight partof fire flight, like there's
just you're not listening.
Yeah, it's the same thing withhorses.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
They're going, okay, same thing with horses or cats.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, like I don't trust this person because
they're not listening to me andactually helping me.
They're just trying to controlme and have me do one very
specific thing, but it doesn'thelp the underlying thing.
It's kind of like, you know,putting a bandit on a bullet
wound, like that's not, that'snot going to do much, it's not
going to help long term, likeit's you got to get to the root
of it all, because if you helpthem feel better, they're going
(14:38):
to act different.
Which is what you're looking tosolve is the actions, but it's
the.
It's the emotion behind whythey're acting the way they're
acting.
If they're afraid of something,they're probably going to bark
at it to get it to go away, anda lot of what we think of as
aggression is a lot of it's justthey're afraid of something,
they're unsure what's going tohappen, they don't trust it,
they don't like it, they want itto go away.
(15:00):
So they act tough and bark youloud and they kind of.
You know they do all thosethings that look scary to us,
but it's supposed to be becausethey're trying to get the thing
to go away.
They're trying to tell the dogto not come near them.
They're trying to tell theperson they don't trust,
whatever it is.
They're outwardly showing thosethings.
But as people like we don't likethat, we don't like growls,
we're not supposed to thoughinstinctively, because that's
(15:22):
survival instinct.
If a wolf growls at you or abear like you know, you're not
supposed to think that's a greatthing.
It's just you don't want tojust have them not vocalize what
they're feeling, because thatdoesn't solve the feeling.
So don't worry so much aboutthe vocalization, but let's
think of why they feel the needto vocalize like that.
What are they feeling?
(15:43):
That we can help?
Because if they feel betterabout the situation or their
triggers, they're not going todo those things.
But it's also good information.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
And how?
Because the horses are the sameway.
I keep going back to that, butlike a horse is pying right, and
then the old school thing wouldbe like get after him for pying
.
You know, like okay first ofall, why is he pying?
And then, if we get to the wherehe can regulate and not feel
the need to paw, it's like themore work you're doing to make
him feel better what you justsaid then those problems take
care of themselves instead ofgetting after a particular
(16:13):
action.
You know so how exactlyhappened then.
So you have her and you taught.
You see the problems.
Then what happened?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yep.
So I learned about likebehavior modification because
there was a couple of things atthe place I was working
possibilities where they wouldhelp people with those.
So I learned a couple of keythings.
One, just to help her learn theskill of relaxation, because
she didn't know they don't, Imean just like us, they're not
born just knowing how to relaxin all different situations.
(16:44):
So I actively worked on herlearning the skill of relaxation
, which sounds weird becauseit's kind of the act of doing
nothing.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Well, it's self regulation right.
I mean in a sense selfregulation.
It's like when we teachchildren, basically children.
It's okay.
Take a deep breath.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yes, so you're.
You're also this is the keypart that I had to learn.
That helped a lot was I neededto calm down too.
So if I saw her triggers, Istarted getting, you know,
triggered, and so she would gooh, mom's worried about
something, where is the thing?
And it just made it worse.
So I had to do I tell peopleall the time I'm like you can in
really be freaking out, that'snormal, but I really just take
(17:23):
some deep breaths and be calmand calmly talk to them and
that's going to help them feelmore secure because they're
watching us.
Does it help the owner?
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Does it help the owner too, because you can't
fool a horse.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, it does eventually.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
You can't fool a dog, a dog knows what you're feeling
, whether you pretending or not.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
For sure, yep.
So I say it kind of starts withit's kind of like a fake it
till you make it but it also,yeah, but it's also telling them
and having them understand whatto do which is my next part
helps them feel more confidentin the situation, because then
they know how to react to theirdog doing these things or how to
be proactive about having themhave that behavior.
(18:03):
Behavior modification happensso that they feel better.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So what is the plan?
What do they do?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
That's a great thing, but yeah, so after the
relaxation, because you can dothat at home and kind of start
that going.
The other part is the behaviormodification where it's
basically like classicalconditioning to an extent here.
So watch the world is thephrase of the I forget who
coined that but it's basicallygoing okay.
(18:29):
You're going to go to a spacewhere the triggers are, but
you're going to have distanceenough from the triggers that
your dog is still it's calledadd or under threshold.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, over threshold.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Over threshold is the crazy add, or under threshold
because they can't learn ifthey're over the brain is the
executive thinking is shut off.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It's gone.
Yep, so they just care aboutthe trigger.
At that point they're just kindof seeing one thing, worrying
about one thing.
But when they're at or underthreshold they still will take
food.
Which food is going to helpwith multiple things?
One it does help them kind ofturn off, almost the kind of
flight or flight type of brainwhere if you're eating the body
goes oh, we're in rest anddigest.
(19:11):
So to a certain extent the bodycalms down because you also
have to chew and swallow andbreathe and all that stuff kind
of happens, but it helps thebrain that way.
You know there's dopamine, justlike with us eating makes us
good quickly.
So stress, eating all that stuff.
But so food helps with that,but also the watch the world is,
specifically you connecting thefood, the feel good, that stuff
(19:34):
with their trigger.
So, for example, if I'm sittingat a lake we haven't known that
there's a lake and dogs arewalking around it I can sit back
in the field and when a doglet's just say it's dogs that my
dog is barking at or you knowreactive to the dog starts
showing up and I start treatingmy dog just for knowing the dogs
there in the distance and thesecond that dog goes out of
(19:57):
sight, I stop.
So it's every time one comesyou get that connection going.
So it's not just sightnecessarily tell people to.
It's like if they know it'sthere, because you know that dog
can be looking at something andlook away and be looking at you
, but they know that's stillgoing on.
Their ear might still be kindof twitched back there or they
(20:17):
might be kind of glancingbecause they're keeping an eye
on it, but it's just knowing thetriggers present, getting that
very distinct connection of you,get this stuff to make you feel
better and connect that withthe trigger, which also does
double duty of having them go.
Oh, I'll look to you in caseyou have something good when I
see the trigger coming.
(20:38):
So I'm not forcing them, by theway, to look away, because that
is a thing that used to happen alot, where they're like, just
have them look at you and sitand ignore the trigger.
But that also just isn't anatural thing, right.
Like, if you're worried aboutsomething, you're going to want
to look at it.
And I'm okay with my doglooking at things.
That's normal.
I look at stuff when they walk,you know something walks by or
(20:59):
squirrel shoots out a tree onour walk on the, look at it.
But it's how they feel, again,that matters.
So I don't care if they'relooking at it or not.
Now I still worry about, like,if they start to, you know, inch
up the threshold a little bitso they start to get too stary
or, you know, get too tense, andI can tell it's too hard.
If it gets too hard, then thatjust means you need to create
(21:21):
more distance.
So distance is the variablethat we work with, with watch
the world.
So the farther way, the easierthey're going to have a time
learning and feeling.
You know, learning basically,but it's a process, right, it's?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
not overnight.
This is going to take time.
I mean, you know it takes timeto reset.
You know build safety.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
It's like habit making breaking.
Yeah, it's definitely.
You basically are building up aneurological pathway.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
You're trying to have them go down this pathway when
they see their triggers, insteadof this old one that they are
people are you finding peoplemore open to wanting to take the
time to do this versus I'm justgoing to get rid of the dog,
you know?
I mean like, because it feelsto me like back in the day which
is you know, and there's still,of course, a lot of poor dogs
that are dumped, and you know, Imean they just kind of get a
job but our people.
(22:09):
Is there a trend to peoplewanting to be better owners?
Do you see that?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I do think so.
I think that unfortunately,sometimes it stems from trying
everything else first.
So then I or people like myselfthat do behavior, this, this
kind of way with the sciencebased knowledge kind of, are
their last resort becausethey've fallen for these quick
fix guarantees of people whoaren't actually certified
(22:35):
trainers, that are trying tojust do the band-aid thing or
use something to basicallycontrol the dog or make them
afraid of even reacting.
So a lot of times they've comefrom that.
So then I actually have to do alittle bit of, you know,
rebuilding and shaping andhaving the dog trust them again
and all that stuff.
But but I will say more andmore, it does seem like people
(22:56):
are actively looking for thekind of situation that I offer,
which is going at itscientifically and pathetically,
like making sure that they'recomfortable with what I'm doing
to their dog and that theyunderstand what's going on
because I teach them.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, you know, I make sure they understand.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, everything right, like how do how to read
their dog, because everyoneshould know that.
But they don't ask necessarilyhow to read their dog, how what
thresholds are and how to workon the watch the world and all
that stuff.
And I write them a very, very,very detailed email because
writer and I give them lots andlots of information and I give
them resources, because Peoplejust Google stuff now and it's
(23:37):
you're never gonna know whatyou're gonna find.
You're gonna find the oppositesand person you know a that
doesn't know anything.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
They don't know which one to go with, they're just
gonna be guessing we find thatwith the dogs that come in, so
it's, we're gonna see a widevariety of owners that want to,
you know, get their dog intoshowbiz, right, and and we see
some dogs that are handledexactly like you're talking
about and these, you know, it'sa joy, right, I mean, these dogs
are gonna be fine.
And we see other dogs and theyit might even be a young dog and
(24:05):
it doesn't need a prong collar,it just this, just, you know,
there's just, and I'm like, hey,your dog is really sweet.
I just don't, you know, youknow why, and they go.
That's what they told us.
It was like, whatever schoolthey're going to, it's like
that's the default and that'sthe behavior we're gonna do.
And if you are a, if they'reopen and and you can say, you
know, maybe you try thisapproach instead.
(24:27):
You know, we just had thathappen recently, you know, and
then so she switched schools andher dog is, I'm so grateful, is
so much happier, for it isgonna be fine, you know, but it
was.
I love that, yeah, but they needto be open to that you know so
yeah, yeah, it's a whole anotherway of thinking about things.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
So I definitely feel like I do a lot of like human
psychology when I go to theseone-on-ones at people's houses,
because I have to Read theperson to and figure out where
they are as far as what theythink of even just dogs, so like
are they property?
Should they just do everythingthat you say and not you know
All these types of things to seewhere they are.
And then I start laying afoundation of well, here's what
(25:08):
we know now because of science.
Because usually if you say that,yeah, credibility a lot of
people kind of go oh, okay, yeah, science and the kind of
questioners or naysayers.
I can usually pick those outright away and I also give them
you know some knowledge of whatto look for in the trainer,
because even if they don'tconnect personally with me, I
(25:28):
want them to understand what tolook for as far as like.
Are they, are they credible,right or do they have good you
know knowledge?
Do they continue theireducation?
Because If they're doing thesame thing they've done 20 years
ago, we know better now.
So anyone can call themselves atrainer.
Unfortunately, they're workingon it, but there isn't.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
It's an honor, it's just anything in the horse world
.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Which scare?
It scares me, because it scaresa lot of us trainers, because
any Joe Schmo can tell you to,just you know, shock your dog
anytime they do something bad.
Yeah, we, uh what I got it.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
We had that happen to .
A gal came in with a niceenough dog or whatever, and she
had a shock collar on it and thedog wanted to say hello to us
because it was excited.
Yeah, she was shocking it Forwanting to be friendly and I'm
like stop, stop, stop, you know.
Stop right now.
Yeah, do you know we're?
We have a different collar here.
Or take this off, you know, Isaid we because what is she
(26:22):
teaching that?
Not to be nice, you know becauseI just couldn't see any issues
in the night.
You know I I'll hug, I getreally up.
I don't I'm gonna go there, Ijust get so upset about that,
you know.
So I hear you totally.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I also told her.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I said yeah, I told her we can't use your dog.
You know if you're gonna be, ifthis is your methods, we can't
work with you.
You know, and so I don't knowwhere she went with that, you
know.
But but it was like what areyou thinking?
Why?
You know I don't.
I think they get told something.
They honestly I don't thinkthey're trying to.
(26:55):
I don't think they understand.
No you know, that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I think you're right.
I think a lot of it's naivete,like they just don't know what
they don't know and they willjust listen to someone because
it's if you make it sound good,you can make anything sound good
like.
I have had dogs my whole lifeand I've trained them all with
this truck color and they're allperfect.
So if you do this, I promiseyour dog will be your idea of
perfect.
And they say that and someonegoes okay, why would they not
(27:20):
buy in and trust that,especially with all the?
Usually they give kind of thekind of key phrases or words of
like I guarantee, like they'llbe, like it's a little bit kind
of too good to be true.
And then it is a type ofsituation but, yeah, people just
want quick help and when theyare told that if they do
something it'll help in aninstant, that's they'll kind of
(27:42):
latch on to that without knowingthere's an alternative,
necessarily and Unfortunatelyusing fear, which usually
punishment, it's kind of allbased in here, right or
intimidation Using thatunfortunately it does work right
.
So, like, technically, whatthey're looking for to happen
tends to happen.
The dog feels somethingnegative, so then they stop,
(28:03):
they try and not do whateverthey need to do to not get that
negative feeling.
So fear and intimidation work.
I mean, look at there's likeour military, like there there's
definitely fear, intimidationhave been used by people forever
, even in classrooms back in theday.
Like fear and intimidation,they work to get very obedient
results and black and white, butthey don't take into account
(28:26):
feelings, emotions and how dogslearn, how people, how any kind
of relationship with your dog isusually broken.
When you start to do that andthat's one of the things I say
to people is I do want your dogto like, trust you and like you
and not be afraid of you Like,don't you want your dog to like,
and then you can kind of seethem going.
Oh yeah, I guess it wouldn'tfeel good if I got zapped every
(28:47):
time.
But you know, they have toreally kind of get into the mind
of the dog and again beempathetic and understand that
that's not actually gonna helplong term, so it only works
Short term.
And when I say works, it justlooks like it's helping because
the dog might shut down.
Yeah, because they don't wantto feel that right, so it's.
It's like an outside againthing versus working on the
(29:07):
inside.
So if I see a trainer that justsays I do this for every single
dog, I always use punishmentfor every single dog, I always
do shock eyes, whatever it's,they're just not knowing enough
about each individual dog.
First of all because not justnot just a black and white world
, not one size, that's all.
And then also they're justfeeding on the basic, you know,
(29:28):
idea of fear can work andintimidation can work to get
someone or something to do whatI want them to do.
But it doesn't have anything todo with how dogs Can learn
without having to.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, if you're trying to learn something, if
somebody hits you every time youmake a mistake.
I mean, how are you gonna learn?
You're not gonna learn yourtimes tables that way.
You know four times for whack.
No, you know, you're not gonnalearn.
And, of course, man was animalsin a way.
So so then, what happened withyour, your, what was, I'm sorry,
the sweet dog's name, theborder collies Taylor.
So you got Taylor, you, youunderstood.
(30:02):
So then how did Taylor herselfget helped?
What, what were you able to dofor her?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I did just that.
I worked on relaxation.
There's something called therelaxation protocol that dr
Karen overall created.
That I worked on, where I justshe was on a mat and I held her
learn that I can walk around,her noises can happen, things
can happen kind of like theherding breed thing, where I
wanted her to be used to thingshappening around her and not
worrying about it.
(30:27):
So I did that she would getcalm treats for things happening
around her and she justpracticed that in our house and
then outside of the house I didthe watch the world, so I would
go to places where I knew thatthere would be dogs and people
of course too, but but I wouldgo at times, specifically when
it wasn't super busy, becausethat would have just been
setting us up to feel so lessgoing on, but I could have a
(30:51):
clear sight line of them comingand going, so it wasn't just
constant right, right, you knowtriggers.
Yeah.
So there's a little gaps inbetween and I would only do it
for maybe five or ten minutesand then we go home and take a
break and rest.
And I do think that I Don'tknow why I did that specifically
because I wasn't necessarilytold that, but I have learned
since then.
(31:11):
It's a very key thing is to notjust overdo it with our dogs,
not to just go, go, go, drill,drill, drill until they have to
tell us they're done, by kind ofhaving to melt down.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Oh yeah, no, I understand that completely,
because we work on, said youknow, we train in the lectures,
right yeah and that's itstresses, you know.
So, just being in the studiostress.
Okay, now you're on a newpeople stress.
And now you're on set now,luckily, because I've worked
with these dogs, have met them,I know which dogs absolutely
love it.
You know, like like this is acheese treat day and they get
(31:42):
excited.
Yeah, I mean.
And so because we don't wedon't use dogs that don't love
it, because, a it's not rightand then B, they don't look good
on you, don't look, it's not.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Same.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Thing with a cat.
You know, I mean, Mike.
Cats like to do the studio work, because you're not gonna make
a cat do anything.
I mean there's no obedience.
No so you know they have beensame thing with those other
animals I work with.
So the I will tell I'm on setand I'll just go dogs done or we
need a break and then like they, you know, if the photographer
who 99% of the time of coursethey're good and they know what
(32:14):
you know they're doing it, butif they miss it in the time
frame, you know, because they'renot ready, I'm sorry.
Dog is done because I want himto come back Yep next time and
be just as happy.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I want to.
Yeah, exactly, you don't wantto kind of taint it, right, no,
and so we do it.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I'm watching him before he starts telling me he's
done.
I'm watching him beforehandbecause you know you might have
a five-minute window to get yourshot.
But you know, sorry, dude, youknow you weren't ready.
That's on you, you know.
I mean we're really luckybecause the people we work with
are so intuitive and so great.
But I've also feel like I havetrained.
You know, like I've trained.
Yeah, seriously to understandthe limitations of that.
(32:53):
It's a dog.
My favorite thing to do, yeah,my favorite thing to do is
they'll.
They'll give you a complex set.
We want him to walk under set,pick up the toy, shake it, turn
around, lay down and then lookat camera.
And I always look and look athim like I'll tell him because,
like you know, yeah, that's ahuman, he's gonna do one thing
at a time.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah one one action, yeah, to break it all down.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah, but it's just so funny because I always have
to go.
I'll tell him and we'll seewhat happens, because you know.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah, I always joke that they don't know our
language.
They don't.
They are not.
Aren't verbal species like us,where they are, like they don't
English and all this stuff?
I'm like they.
99% of what they do is bodylanguage and so if you're not
listening, it means you're notlooking for it, like you got to
actually try with them, likethey just are.
We're kind of their world, likethey really quickly learn us.
They learn what we look like,what we sound like, what we do
(33:43):
when certain things happen.
They can learn to read ourfaces so well.
There's some cool studies therewhere they can especially their
people with facial expressionsand everything like that.
But yeah, they're brilliant atthat stuff because it's kind of
word, their world in a certainway Right, like a lot of stuff
revolves around us.
But yeah, it's amazing how manypeople don't even know some
basic Body language, like youknow communication that dogs are
(34:06):
trying to say something like.
I will look at a dog and go,okay, your dog is really unhappy
right now and someone will haveno right, and it's not that
they don't care, it's that theyjust don't or the goal, like I
don't know, I don't know whathappened.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
He just, he, just all of a sudden bit that person.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah, there's basically now such.
Usually there's several warningsigns that they just aren't
aware of before somethinghappens.
So I have to kind of get to thenitty gritty of the timeline of
things.
And, hey, do you remember whattheir body looked like when you
did this?
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, they're the famous horse trainer who said
what happened before whathappened.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yep, totally.
It didn't just come out of theblue.
Something usually triggerssomething and sometimes it's
just a troubleshooting,problem-solving game where I'm
like, okay, is it because thisdog physically doesn't feel well
and the kid pushed whatever itphysically could be?
That could be part of it too.
It doesn't have to just bemental, it can be the dog's
(34:58):
getting older and has arthritisand so it doesn't want to do
something.
I had a trainer friend whosedog wasn't grabbing things
anymore and holding them intheir mouth and she ended up
learning that the dog had afracture too.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Oh, yeah, it's hurt, it would make sense.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Right, but like you wouldn't know otherwise because
the dog was still eating.
But yeah, it was just one ofthose things where, if something
is different, there's somereason.
We got to just get to thebottom of the reason.
And yeah, they're alwaystalking.
That's why I tell people I'mlike they're constantly saying
things.
You just got to learn how toread it.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Do you find that that energy plays a big part in this
, like our energy around them?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yes, it really does.
There are definitely peoplewhere I can tell that they're
just so frustrated with theirdog that it's hard, because you
can see the dog and then bothkind of at odds just in the room
right away.
I can tell that there's not agood relationship Because if you
are constantly stressed justlike if a dog's constantly
(35:56):
stressed you have all thesestacking stressors and not
enough time to regulate.
You know you're on a hairpintrigger like there's.
You're not going to be able tohandle things that you maybe
even could have handled before.
Like I'll see someone getreally frustrated about some
teeny little thing and I'm like,okay, there's something else
going on.
You've had a hard time for awhile now and you just need some
help learning that some thingsare natural and that we can do a
(36:18):
couple of things that'll helpyou guys and to rebuild that
trust back up, because it is arelationship, it's not just a
one way you know thing andhaving people learn that they're
also not most of the time off.
You know.
Of course I'll say you know,you're not doing anything wrong,
you just don't know what to doand that's why I'm here and it's
okay.
You know, we're going to haveyou learn these things and even
(36:39):
just getting someone who'sunderstanding like that does
tend to help the people almostimmediately.
I will have people that willsometimes cry or hug me and be
like I feel so much better.
It's not me, I'm not ruining mydog, you know, and all that
stuff and they're like I justwant to have a good relationship
with my dog and I'm like I knoweveryone wants to have a
harmonious household Like that'sright, that should be a normal
(37:00):
thing.
But yeah, it's definitely justthere's a lot of just not enough
knowledge on dogs in generaland that's why education for me
is such a big thing and I'm kindof more and more in my career
I'm kind of zooming out andwanting to figure out places
that I can, you know, give thatknowledge and have education in
just basic dog stuff like bodylanguage, communications, how to
(37:23):
interact with a strange dog.
You know, all these kids anddogs.
I mean there's a lot of thingsthat if just more people knew it
would really, really help.
And if we had people understandto get that information from
right behavior you know,certified trainers, behavior is
not just their neighbor, theirfriend, their groomer, their
breeder, their vet which, thatbeing said, that's our great
(37:43):
task for a lot of advice, butthey're they're not technically
just behaviorists and I'veworked at several that, by the
way.
I love doing that.
It's very stressful environmentas well, very draining
emotionally.
But they are like, yeah, wedon't really get.
You have to basicallyspecialize it and in it.
And I was like I know, which iswhy you guys probably feel bad
when you get asked for adviceand you just kind of have to
(38:05):
guess on the spot to try andhelp them if you don't have a
trainer, you know.
But having worked at two vets,they both now recommend people
to me because they're like, oh,at least I can give them
somebody who knows right.
Who is a behaviorist, but I getlike people could naturally
gravitate towards asking maybethe vet if they think of you.
Know someone who might?
Know, you know the sciencebehind behavior or something
(38:25):
like that.
But it definitely is one ofthose things where, the more we
get you know vets to work withtrainers or even breeders to
recommend a trainer, instead ofjust giving behavior advice
Sorry my clock, I don't know ifyou're gonna be able to hear
that, but it plays a song everyhour, okay, but yeah, it's
definitely something thatcollaboration is helpful, and
not just you know.
The ego needs to go away too.
(38:45):
There's definitely some of thatwhere you know that you work
with dogs, that doesn't mean youknow everything about dogs.
I'm not, even though I groomedfor like six months.
I'm not going to give groomingadvice.
I'm going to send someone tothe groomer.
You know I'm not going to.
You know, just pretend I knowthings or just try and help,
because you know you don't knowwhat else to do.
I want everyone to kind ofcollaborate in a way or at least
(39:07):
know where to go.
At least just go.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Here's a great resource, here's someone who and
again, to do that they need toknow what to even look at Right,
Because I remember a few yearsago there was a very popular
television show with a fellowthat was using methods that we
just kind of find abhorrent, youknow, but you'd have to know
that because it was very popularyou know oh yeah, it's the time
it's like.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
It makes it sound good.
Yeah, and they want to believeit.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I don't know how I'm like you know.
Yeah, you know what I'm talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
I know exactly what you're talking about.
It gets me very upset too.
Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I'm really glad that the world has changed in the
sense that there's so muchinformation out there.
But, like you said, it's amatter of finding the right
information, and we've beenreally lucky on the podcast to
have people who are advocatingfor better treatment and
understanding of animals.
That's pretty much our focus,and so you've been fantastic
because you're totally exactlyexpressing what I believe and I
(40:06):
want more people to hear.
So let's talk about that,because you mentioned that's
what your future goals are.
Because, first of all, let'stalk about what you're doing
right now, so that we'll beadding all of your links and
information, you know, to theshow notes so that people can
reach you, but what you're doingright now.
But I was also interested inwhat you had mentioned for your
future, which sounds prettyexciting and helpful for all the
(40:28):
dogs out there.
I mean, it's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, no, it's definitely.
Currently I've gotten to thepoint.
Instead of focusing on kind ofdog care or any of that stuff, I
am, like I said, really honedit on the training.
But I think of it as justbehavior and training because
they kind of are a little bitdifferent things than I tell
people.
When I say behavior, that'smore of an all encompassing
thing, whereas training that'sjust teaching dog skills,
(40:53):
usually right Like it's kind of.
But I want to focus more on thebehavior stuff because I want
to help people as much as Ipossibly can, but doing it with
just one person at a time.
While that is fulfilling, Idon't feel like I'm doing enough
.
For what I can, like myknowledge that I have, I want to
just be able to give to as manypeople as I possibly can.
(41:15):
So that's why I'm looking atthe industries within it, right,
that I people that touch dogs,so vet scrimmers and all that
stuff.
But also recently shelters andrescues.
I just spoke at one of themlike an internal.
They had all their dog people,volunteers come and I spoke
about dog body language and Ileft that feeling like I did so
(41:37):
much good because there's like30 people that asked a bunch of
great questions and I knew thatthem handling dogs all the time,
especially string, you know andstress the dog stress
constantly Exactly, and so itjust felt like I touched more
you know lives that will thentouch dogs lives, and that
really ignited a flame in me andI kind of had a feeling from
(41:57):
the beginning like I kind ofjust want to speak, lecture,
help the people understand thedogs.
I will still always love workingwith dogs, but to be able to
have more of a you know effect,more change in this world, I
need to touch more.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
A bigger platform, as it were.
A bigger platform.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yes, yes, yeah, yep.
So I kind of I do want tobranch into doing that.
I do think I don't know if thisis necessarily where I will go
in the future, but I havethought about having finding a
way to have vets, have you know,maybe one, maybe one
behaviorist or trainer, kind ofon call or on staff to send
people to because it's such abig part of what they I mean.
(42:39):
Again, I've worked at vets.
I was always one who had tohold the dogs because I
instinctively knew how to helpthe dog plunge down and hold
them, but not feel like I'mholding them so that they could
relax while things werehappening and I would say, oh,
they're over it, I need, theyneed a break.
You know, there's someone thatknows those things to train the
vet techs, who do most of theholding of dogs, or anyone,
(43:01):
anyone, anyone that would toucha dog.
Again, groomers, I mean, eventhough I don't have the grooming
skills, I would know how tohandle a dog better because I
would be reading them constantlyand I would be okay taking
breaks when they're specificallyneeded and I would work
everything around the dog.
Dog centric you know it's muchmore dog centric.
Yes, yes, so I mean long, longterm.
(43:25):
It'd be great if I could evenjust start facilities that kind
of had multiple different things, where I was training trainers
to know behavior and then alsohaving them get connected with
different within differentindustries to kind of either go
to to help other people learn,so kind of teaching people to
teach people.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Yeah, oh, I think that's a brilliant idea.
I hope you know I think dogswould be better off for it.
I think it's brilliant idea tocombine resources in one place
for people.
You know, like it was abeautiful boarding facility or
doggy daycare or whatever youknow and they have like and
they're doing things right.
Okay, but to have that addedpart of like, hey, if you're
(44:03):
having specific issues, you knowhere's our on call person or
here's the seminar you can go to, or here's, you know, or the
big, you know, the shelters,like you say, or you know it's
probably difficult to monetize.
So I hope for the best for you,but I know that's always the
thing with training.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
It's always like, Okay, how can I do what I love?
But also, you know, make aliving, and it's only fair.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
I mean, I get that.
You know our podcast is notmonetized.
It's a labor of love because Ijust want to get this message
out.
But if somebody came along andsaid, hey, we'd like to create
something bigger out of this,I'd be like Sure that, a bigger
platform so we can get themessage out, you know, and then
make a little living awesome,but you know, so I get it.
I get it what you're saying, butI know that your heart
certainly in the right place forthe dogs, and helping the
(44:49):
people will help the dogs, sothat's exactly All right.
Well, we're to the part of theshow where we, we I sent some
questions to you, and there arequestions that we borrowed from
a book called Tim Ferriss's.
Oh gosh, tim Ferriss and I'mblanking out on the name of the
(45:10):
book because I haven't said itout loud.
So, tribe of mentors, thank youAnyway.
I wanted to give credit becausewe totally, you know, borrowed
this idea.
This tribe of mentors questions, and it's also what we call
let's see if I can hold this upsnack break.
These are some Cardinal cherryscones.
(45:30):
That's what they are.
Yeah, yeah, because I feed mycrew and we're done because
that's a food's part of we'realso food made of it, motivated
just like the dogs.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, exactly Right, it's the question time.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Okay, so what is the worst?
Advice given your profession orbad idea that you hear of in
your field of expertise?
Speaker 2 (45:52):
I mean, I guess an all encompassing one is quick
results.
I mean to try and geteverything done as quick as
possible, because nine times outof ten, and maybe even ten
times out of ten, if you're justgoing for quick results to get
things taken care of, you'regonna probably go for harsher
methods because you're notactually taking time to learn
(46:14):
about the animal and figure outa way to help them.
That's going to not just begood for you but for them, which
should be the goal.
So yeah, the quick fixes arethat's not the goal.
The goal should be, you know,quality of the information that
you're getting and how to learnabout helping your dog in a way
(46:35):
that's empathetic.
I guess I love it.
I work for it to make sure thatOkay.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Okay.
What inspires and motivates youto do what you do?
What is your true purpose inthe world?
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah, honestly, from I can remember thinking this
from being just a little girl.
I always felt like I had to bea voice for animals, because
they don't have a voice in theway that we think of it, like
speaking right, they can't standup for themselves in the way
that we're used to even seeingfrom people, and I always wanted
to be like a voice for theanimals, so kind of speaking
(47:12):
through them, going okay, thisis what your dog is feeling, how
can we help them with thefeeling?
So it's not just it's being avoice for them, but also in the
way that I'm helping peopleunderstand that voice too, if
that makes sense.
So connecting them to peoplemore, with them and their voices
.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Oh, absolutely no.
That makes perfect sense.
What quality do you admire mostin people?
Speaker 2 (47:35):
I definitely empathy and it is and passion.
I've always compassion andempathy are words that have
ruled my my whole life, becausethey're very easy not to have.
I feel like it's more of like Ireally am happily surprised
(47:56):
when I see people I connect wellwith because they have the same
type of empathy.
I feel like empathy rules myworld.
I feel like if I got one youknow personality trait, it's
empathy like that.
I just that is who I am.
So I feel like having otherpeople that I find ever that
have it.
I always will connect with them, whether they're empathetic
(48:18):
about it's passionate aboutcertain other, you know things.
It's the empathy where you canput yourself in other shoes when
you care about the well-beingof others, even if it doesn't
affect you.
That is something that I reallycherish and think is super
important for me.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
I wish there was more .
You know, I have to agree.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
I do, I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Okay, what have you become better at saying no to.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Lots of things.
One, it's just kind of, ingeneral, standing up for my
energy.
I guess I'm.
When I say that, I mean I don'tlet myself burn out as much as
I used to because I could beworking constantly.
I used to work a lot.
I used to do like 20 classes aweek and then I do stuff on top
of that and while it's good, Ialways, you know, would burn out
(49:08):
in the end anyway.
So it's like, well, I can'thelp people if I'm burned out
right.
So I have to learn to say no tocertain things that are gonna
take too much energy, which iswhy I landed in this part of the
field, because I was gettingburned out.
In veterinary care I wasgetting burned out, you know,
grooming burned out really best,and even in boring and daycare
it's just a lot of physical andI would see all these animals
(49:29):
and their emotions and not beable to do something about it.
So protecting my energy and myemotional well-being has been a
huge thing.
So that might mean saying no to, you know, having too much of
my time taken up.
It might mean saying no to, youknow, physically interacting
with people for a day, because Isometimes just need to.
I have, like an autoimmunedisease and other things going
(49:51):
on with myself that I just needto listen to more than I used to
.
So luckily, the right peopleunderstand so if I need to say
no to something I have, a good,yeah, you know support system.
Now that understands and a lotof my clients, the good ones,
understand oh yeah, I mean, youknow when they're, when they're
on the same level as you.
If you can't understand thatI'm human and sometimes need to
(50:13):
say no, then we might not beable to.
You know, work together wellanyway.
So I need to be okay withpeople maybe not understanding
me, but I just need to listen tomyself and protect my energy.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Okay, all right.
The other question was if youcould send a message to the
world, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (50:33):
I feel like they need to be super poetic here, but in
general, the idea is I wantpeople to understand that what
they do and how they act affectsothers, including animals and
dogs.
So thinking about what you'redoing before you're doing it and
understanding that what you'redoing is going to affect
(50:56):
something else or someone else.
So, like you have rippleeffects, like one negative thing
can affect someone's whole dayand then they might be a little
bit more, you know, grumpytowards someone else and it just
kind of negativity can spread.
And it goes with animals, likeI said too, where you know, I
just like to pause and havepeople just think about okay,
(51:17):
well, what I'm doing isn't justgoing into the void, it others
around me are being, so it'sjust self-awareness huge and it
really does help with beingempathetic.
It's like you kind of need toactively work on that to be able
to understand and again, itgoes with with dogs too.
If you're understanding howwhat you're doing affects them,
(51:40):
it makes it.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Sure, for sure.
No, that's, that's.
It's a good message, all right.
So then, how do we get it?
If somebody wants to learn moreabout what you're doing, how do
we find you?
I mean, we'll have these links,but let's, let's have you share
everything you'd like to aboutall that sure, yeah, I have a
website.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
It's wwwccpsmncom, and it has kind of a long bio on
myself and it has all myservices on there my blog, which
I need to post more on there.
So look forward to that comingsoon.
I'm getting there and then Ialso now on there, you will see,
have virtual classes.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Oh, I was gonna ask you about that because that you
know hopefully more people thatcan see this, can, you know,
work with you virtually, whichwould be great so?
Speaker 2 (52:26):
yeah, because I want to be able to help people that
aren't just in my radiusphysically.
I mean, I would like to helppeople around the world if
possible.
So virtual learning isobviously more common now than
when we had certain things inthe world happen.
So I want to be able to connectwith as many people as possible
and answers many questions or,you know, help people with their
specific dogs, whatever itmight be.
(52:49):
Even just having like lecturesthere, where it's like if you
all you care about is one topic,there's an hour.
You know that you can go on andlearn about that.
That's something that'ssomewhat new, but I'm hoping it
picks up a little bit and takesoff because, like you said, that
that's just connecting morepeople right like I.
I just want to be able to dothat, and a lot of people, if
(53:09):
they're sitting at home, justpop on.
It's like a podcast.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
You can just pop on and watch something or listen to
something for a little bit oftime.
You know, have severalsubscriptions to horse trainers
because they are putting outinformation.
That is where I'm learning overand over again you know how to
be better with my horses andit's so inexpensive.
I mean, when you have a modelthat you subscribe, it's, like
you know, so inexpensive fortons of information that's so
(53:35):
useful, and then you can usuallyfind a community of like-minded
people who are following thesame thing and then you can talk
about it more and yes, yes,that was what I was thinking of
doing too.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Like I am in the works of having like a patreon,
which will have a community onthere, and I'm gonna have like
PDFs that you'll have access toand things like that and videos
and topics you can do.
You know, question and answersor people.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Yeah, no, it's pretty , it's limitless and I need is
out there and you know, becauseI live like what?
70 miles from a city center,you know, a big major city from
like I'm out the country, and adog-crain school to physically
take my dog would be 30, 40miles one way, you know, you
(54:21):
know so and that might not evenbe what you need.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
You might need one right exactly so.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Being able, to you know, learn things remotely is a
is also a great way besides thein-person stuff.
I am glad that you're in theworld for our dogs and for the
helping the people with theirdogs and we really appreciate
you coming on our podcast todayand, like I said, everyone,
she'll have all of ourinformation carries, information
(54:47):
on the website and I betthere's a book in there
somewhere.
You probably got a book youknow you're gonna be working on
and yeah, it's in the works justusing that right.
There you go.
So thank you so much for forcoming on.
We really appreciate it.
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