Lockie Phillips - When it comes to Horses, Obedience is Out and Empathy is In - S2 E3 - The Empathetic Trainer

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer, and I'd like to
welcome you to the empathetictrainer.
Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien.
Welcome to the empathetictrainer podcast.
Today's guest is someone I'vebeen so excited to talk to

(00:35):
because I think he's justshaking up the horse world with
a message that we all reallyneed to hear.
Locky Phillips is a horsetrainer, international clinician
, equestrian coach and horse dad.
He's a retired professionaldancer, nerd, Australian by
birth and resident of Spain bychoice.
He uses emotional horsemanshipto have a better connection with

(00:57):
his horses.
When it comes to horse training, Locky believes that obedience
is out and empathy is in.
Well, okay, the title of ourpodcast is the empathetic
trainer.
Okay, well, that's a prettydarn good thing that this guy
needs to be on our show, sowe're grateful for you taking
the time Welcome.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thank you for having me.
I'm really thrilled to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
It's really kind of fun.
What the opposite of what weare right now, because you told
me that you're in your jambas,which I think is awesome Because
it's like 830 in the morning,and help me pronounce correctly,
but is it Galatia, spain?

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Galatia.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
That's Northwestern Spain.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Correct, yes, just above Portugal.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Okay, and it's a mountainous area.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, I mean most of Spain is pretty mountainous, but
our area is more sort ofrolling hills green country, so
it looks like Ireland.
It's just much, much longersummers and much better summers,
Very, very wet, very, very wetwinters.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
That sounds like Western Wisconsin.
I mean, that's rolling hillsand it's like 830 in the morning
where you are, and it's 130 orso in the morning where I am,
and so I hope you're an eveningperson.
Actually I'm not, but I'm happyYou're not.
I'm so excited I'd like to stayup.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Thank you, I'm well, I'm really honored that you
would meet at this time.
That's actually like that's abig deal, Because, yeah, thank
you.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, you've got something that you're sharing.
That I've, because I've beenreading this stuff on Facebook.
That's why I found you, andKerry Lake and some other people
have mentioned you that I'vehad on our podcast and you're
all kind of this.
She's wonderful, everyoneshould go.
Follow Kerry Lake too, and MaryCorning and other people have.
You know I've talked about you,say I found you and I started

(02:50):
reading it and I'm I, you know,been around a while.
I'm quite a bit older than youand I keep going, wow, another
deep thing.
You see my comments on yourpost, if you, if you, you know
all those people, but I'm likewell again, because been around
animals a long time and have tonaturally be in tune with them

(03:11):
to do my job.
But you are continuing tochallenge even what I thought I
was doing in in a really goodway, like you're challenging my
precepts of like I'm good andI'm being nice to animals and
I'm right because you'rechallenging that.
So I want to talk about that,because the way we said about
obedience is out and empathy isin, and that's a really great

(03:35):
way of because I was.
You know you all talk aboutthis another podcast, but we'll
talk about how.
Years ago when I startedtraining dogs, it was all choke
chains.
And and you know hard collarsand some people even used
electric shock things.
You know, and I I as a child Iknew that wasn't right.
I could see that, feel that.

(03:55):
But you're like you're, you'rebeing taught.
You know, this is just how youtrain a dog, this is how you do.
So there's been a shift in thedog world and it's happened
quicker than it has, and I meanit's it started before that it
feels like it's just now barelystarting in the horse world.
And so, because show them who'sboss and don't let that horse

(04:17):
walk all over you.
And data, data, data and so andI always want to treat my
horses as well as I treateveryone I love and everything I
love right, but I felt likeeverybody else.
Like you know, I have to learnas more, want to learn more.
Tell me please about.
Obedience is out, empathy is in.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Well, the the caveat there.
Obviously, if I was to continuethat line of thought obedience
is out, empathy is in it wouldsay dot, dot, dot, parentheses
for who right?
So this isn't for everybody.
I'm very, very clear about that.
And then I'm not here torepresent everybody and I don't

(04:57):
want to change anybody what I'mhere to do and I'm very, very
crystalline on this point I'mhere to represent who I think is
the most underrepresented andunderestimated community within
the equestrian sphere, and thatis the private owner.

(05:18):
I tend to work almostexclusively with private owners.
Some of them compete, not many,because the message I have is
obviously very difficult forpeople who are very much bought
into the competitive industry.
Not impossible, but it's moredifficult for them.
And I work with a lot of fellowtrainers and colleagues as well

(05:39):
.
That's who I tend to work with,but they're all private owners.
You've ever seen trainers talkabout amateurs instead of an
element of the disdain to it?
I think that's disrespectful tocall them amateurs, because
some private owners are some ofthe most skilled horse people I
know talented, take exquisitecare of their animals, and yet

(06:03):
they don't have a trainingmethodology for them.
What they have available tothem is agricultural
methodologies and I can explainin more detail the etymology
around that or they havecompetitive methodologies and so
for a long time private ownershave been square pegs trying to

(06:25):
fit into a round hole with theseother systems of training which
weren't designed for them, andsome of those systems have made
a few exceptions to try andadapt what they're doing for
these people, but at the end ofthe day, it isn't for them.
It hasn't felt good to try andmake their horsemanship
something that isn't designedfor them.

(06:47):
I am just like the people that Iserve.
I have horses because Iabsolutely am obsessed and in
love with them, period.
Let's start there, continuethere and end there in
everything that we do.
And I think horse people go offtrack when they start selling
that love down the river infavor of insert reason here.

(07:11):
That's when we start getting introuble, and so I'm very, very
clear that this is who I serveand because of that, my critics
I put that in parentheses mycritics would say, oh, you only
succeed because you're able toheavily control the context
around the horses.
I say, yes, correct, correct,you're right.

(07:34):
Thank you for that compliment.
We are able to heavily controlthe context.
You're only able to succeed.
Because you're able, you havethe luxury of exacting low
mileage upon the horses.
I say yes, thank you for thatcompliment.
Yeah, it's about bloody time.
So I think for thousands ofyears human civilization has

(07:59):
been built with the horse by ourside and the dog at our feet or
the horse under our thighs, andthey've gone to battle for us,
they've died in battle for us,and we say that horses.
We built civilization withhorses.
I think horses helped us tobecome civilized, more civilized
, and I think they're continuingto demand civility from people

(08:25):
Because if we listen to them, itis inevitable that they lead us
away from this brutal,chimpanzee, monkey brain
fighting and conflama chaos anddrama.
They lead us away from that andthey lead us into this
exceptionally gentle,exceptionally elegant,

(08:48):
exceptionally intelligent placeof civility and understanding
and incredible craftsmanshipwith them, and I think we just
need to surrender to that andallow them to continue to bring
us to civility.
So obedience is out and empathyis in, because obedience at its

(09:12):
core, if we really drilled downto it and remove the typical
rationalizations, remove itstypical disguises even at its
core obedience is about selfishhuman need to get what we want
from the horse.
Its extractivism I'm going toextract from the horse what I

(09:36):
want.
There are even very, very good,ethically, morally, welfare
driven protocols of trainingwhich are still formulated
around the primary concept ofcreating correct behavior versus
incorrect behavior.
Well, this is just obediencewith a different hat on,
regardless how nice we are tothe horses in the process, if

(09:58):
we've manipulated the horse toonly be an echo chamber where
the horse is only giving us whatwe want to hear and receive
from them at all times, it's notlistening, it's not a
partnership.
We're just training them togive us the answers we want all
the time.
That doesn't mean that thehorse has had a positive
internal experience, and aninternal experience is an

(10:20):
emotional experience period.
So it was during COVID.
I hope I'm allowed to say thatwithout the algorithm putting
you in the doldrums.
But during the big C I reallydecided to metaphorically come
out of the closet with mytraining methodologies because I

(10:43):
was calling it emotionalhorsemanship for several years
in private to my best clientsonly because the word emotion
and emotional continues to be adirty word.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
But there was a time you're young, but there was a
time when scientists or peoplethat thought was animals don't
have emotions.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Oh, there are people who are still very much in that
place and that's been thoroughlydisproven, has been disproven
for at least 20 years.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
That's just mind boggling to me, like, oh, he
doesn't care, he doesn't mindBecause we'll hear this with
dogs.
He doesn't know that, hedoesn't feel that ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
That's all rubbish.
I'm so far past all of thatthat it's a given.
That's not even just the ridingon the wall, that's a journey
that I have, me and my peopleand my community.
We are so far past thatquestion.
We can discuss that question,but I'm trying to keep things.
Let's see what's really reallyin front of us, because I agree,

(11:42):
I just was showing you that,quantifying that Even 20 years
ago, behavioral scientistsdiscouraged animal trainers from
using the word fear to describeresponses in animals.
Instead, they called it anegative energetic arousal or

(12:03):
something like this.
They had some other euphemismfor it because they didn't want
to attribute what they thoughtwas anthropomorphic emotions on
animals.
But what we've discovered isthat all mammals share the same
neurology for emotion.
The same primary emotionalsystems are absolutely congruent

(12:25):
across all mammalian species.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
It's really true, because in the past we've worked
with some young people girlsthat have had lots of trauma,
adverse childhood experiences,things like that we with our
animals at the farm, and thingswhen I worked with a frightened
animal, there's a certain type,that is what they look like and

(12:48):
what their feelings give offRight.
When I work with a troubledfrightened girl, it is the exact
same thing that comes off ofthem.
So you can't tell me there's anydifference between this mammal,
the human, and this horse, thisdog, this sheep that is
frightened or upset, or you know.
This is why animals are sohealing, because it's the same

(13:11):
opposite.
So, completely agree.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, 100%, and behaviorism also, in my view and
experience, is not enough,because behavior is what
separates us species to species.
Fear behavior looks differentin a horse than fear behavior in
a dog.
There are similarities, butthis is the leaves of the tree,

(13:36):
not the root.
The root is the underlyingneurology or subcortical
processes that are similaracross all species, and I
believe that's what empathy is.
It's the ability to feel theunderlying internal state of
others, regardless what it lookslike on the surface.

(13:57):
So, though behavior is reallyimportant and behavioral
modification protocols areimportant, they're a tool in our
toolbox as horse people.
I'm trying as much as I can toencourage the people I work with
to develop past, an obsessionwith the mechanical, develop
past and obsession and fixationon behavioral outcomes, because

(14:20):
behavioral outcomes, they have alast thing to occur in an event
for an animal First there's aninternal motivation and then it
processes and then eventually itbecomes external.
But sometimes horses can havechanges which can only be felt,
not seen, and that's entirelythe point.

(14:41):
I think that's what naturalhorsemanship tried to make a
point of 20, 30 years ago, butthen it became something else.
So I'm really trying to hold onto that integrity in everything
I do.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
Exactly.
I'm going to quote some of thethings that you've written
because they're so profound, butone of your quotes that you've
said is One day I dream ofhitting my horse because they
were not light.
To my reign, said nohorse-loving child ever.
I believe we may have been theperfect horse people as children

(15:17):
.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
I mean, I think most horse people not all have
memories as children with horseswhich are kind of idealistic.
Yes, we're maybe looking at itwith rose-tinted glasses, but
there's something to be said forthe immediate, profound
connection that children areable to obtain with horses.

(15:41):
I think all of us, if we'reinstructors, have stories of
horses that were a bit crappywith adults, like they had a
pretty combative relationshipwith adults but with children
they just melt.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
True yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
So we're all trying to go back to that place.
Why?
Why as children was theconnection easier and why as
adults is the connection moredifficult?
These are the questions we needto be asking, in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yes, do you have an answer for us?

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yes, as so far, based on my research and experience,
what I understand and I'm not ascientist, I'm just a nerd.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
That's a great time Really clear I'm not a scientist
, I'm just a nerd.
I don't think you have to be aqualified scientist in order to
observe the science andintegrate it in what you do.
But anyway, that's anotherconversation.
In my experience and what Ithink so far, the human brain
has three basic levels.
We have the instinct, which isthe brainstem.

(16:44):
That's the nervous system.
Responses so fight, freeze,fawn, maybe forage as well.
It's the nervous system.
Then you have the emotionalbrain on top of that, which is
the limbic system.
It's memory formation, it'sconscious movement, it's
emotional system.
And then you have the abstractbrain on top of that.
The abstract brain isdecision-making, abstract

(17:06):
thought, invention.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
Right In trauma circles.
It's the executive, theexecutive.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Exactly.
And so the executive system.
It's about four million yearsold.
But the emotional brain, thenext layer down, is 150 million
years old, and the lizard brain,the brainstem it's 240 to 150
million years old.
So from an evolution standpointour executive brain is kind of
like a baby that's still shakinga rattle.

(17:36):
It's not very mature.
It needs a few more millionyears to cycle on itself and to
edit out some of its dysfunction, and it's not well integrated
with the rest of our brain.
We also have modern educationwhich is designed to take the
executive system, circle on itand only on it and continue to

(17:57):
disconnect it from the rest ofthe brain, Because we don't need
a workforce of fully integrated, empathic people.
That is unhelpful, becausesomeone working a crappy job
somewhere, if they actuallyunited with their body's truth
and realized, oh my God, I'mbeing taken advantage of, that's
not helpful to the powers thatbe.

(18:18):
They need someone whose body isjust a vessel to take their
brain to a mindless task.
So that's part of the IndustrialRevolution and this late stage
capitalism hellscape we findourselves in.
It's all part of this kind ofweird tapestry that human
culture has sort of woven foritself with this very strange
part of our brain which buildsabstraction on top of

(18:41):
abstraction on top ofabstraction and takes us often
on these random side quests wayupriver, far away from empathic
truth, where you will see asituation of someone doing the
most egregious practices to ahorse that you can imagine and
then they can sit in front ofyou clear-eyed and calm and cold

(19:04):
, and rationalize it to you inexplicit detail Enough so that
someone else would start to nodtheir head and say that starts
to make sense.
But actually, if you areconnected to the emotional truth
of it, it makes absolutely nosense whatsoever.
This is why we're strugglinghere, because adult education

(19:26):
encourages that and the way thehuman brain develops from the
age of about 12 through 25 isincreasing this part of our
brain and so it's very heavy,it's very difficult to overcome,
and training people to reunitethe rest of their brain and what
they're doing is kind of whatI'm obsessed with.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
It's clearly, but I think it's good, it's needed.
It's needed.
You are stirring up the horseworld as we speak in a good way,
because on the internet I'm notgoing to have to go into, I
don't want to have slander orlibel, so I'm not going to say
anything, but there's some awfulstuff that has been coming out

(20:14):
that someone bravely shot avideo of some pretty awful
abuses.
It's as an animal lover andsomeone who you know, it's like
somebody filmed someone beatinga child.
It would just put you rightover the edge and you stood up
and you're like, hey, horsepeople, if this continues if

(20:35):
this?
first of all, it's horrible forthe horses, but if we accept
this, our privilege of havinghorses is going to get taken
away from us.
It potentially is.
Yeah, I mean in the long run.
And I just went like, wow, andif we did continue with all of
us treated horses like that,they should take them away.
But the point is, the averageperson who loves horses isn't
going to do that that, truly.

(20:55):
You know, we're not wired to dothis.
You know, when I was a kid andthey said, no, you jerk the dog,
you jerk him and make him sit,you jerk him and you pull him.
You know the child of me goes.
No, we don't hurt things, youknow, and so like, even as a
child, they knew that that's nothow we're going to get a happy
thing going and try to tell acat what to do.

(21:17):
It's no, there's no obediencein cats.
But even how could that be?
And I work with cats, you know,that's my what I do for a
living right, and I love them, Iadore them.
But they are weird, choosing,weird.
They only go because they wantto.
So anyway, I love that with myhorse.
Right, Didn't one of the best,didn't Ray?
Was it?
Ray Hunter, Tom Dorrance?

(21:37):
But it was so like, first thehorse goes and then you go and
then you go together, Somethinglike that, like it was a choice.
It was like you're not forcingthe horse, you're going together
.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
And I like that.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
So do you want to?
Without us getting into anyslander or a libel, because we
don't want to get in trouble,you know.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
but we can.
Oh, I've got no problem speak.
I'm I've got no problemspeaking specifically on it.
So there was a man named CesarParra who allegedly and
allegedly if I say allegedly,I'm safe allegedly enacted
egregious abuse upon horses andhas been doing it allegedly for
over 20 years, and everyone knew.
And now that it's filmed andwith the recent changes in the

(22:19):
community around horse sportssocial license to operate,
there's a ground swell and thevoice is starting to build.
But when I saw that, I washorrified, of course, but also
not surprised, and I've beenscreaming into the wind about
this for a while.
I don't think I'm new to thisconversation, though I think
there's always.

(22:39):
There have always been peoplequote unquote like me.
They have always been voiceswho have expressed concern on
behalf of the horse, and therehave always been people
operating in training modalitieswith the horse with enormous
integrity and welfare.
Ray hunt and the Doronces theyare prime examples of that.

(23:00):
There's always been voices.
I think what I'm doing istrying to get people to simplify
rather than complicate, butsimplify with deep understanding
.
Don't simplify by making thingsmore stupid and by making
things more asinine, becausemodern marketing tries to get us
to do that.
Speak it as if they're idiots.

(23:20):
No, I want an intelligence here.
We shouldn't be more asinineand simple, we should be more
deeply understood.
But edit it down, take away thecomplications, so someone like
Cesar Parra, allegedly with thatabuse, is able to enact that
abuse alleged abuse on horsesand then, clearheaded, sit there

(23:41):
and make a video talking aboutconnection with horses and
treating them well.
It's just, it's almost a blackcomedy.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
It's it's yeah, exactly what you were saying
prior to that.
Someone could stare you rightin the face and say something
that isn't right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
And a few days prior to that there was a video
surfacing of a filly at aClinton Anderson clinic who was
chased in circles until shecompletely collapsed in front of
an audience and no one didnothing.
Prior to that, there was a very, very highly scored dressage
test by Charlotte Fry at someworld championship, where

(24:15):
classical enthusiasts look atthat and said how did that horse
score 84% or something?
This is not classicalcollection, and yet she's
scoring highly.
And then, prior to that, therewas you know, it's just this
revolving door ad nauseam, adnauseam.
So it's, it's my duty, I think,to take a public position on

(24:38):
these things that are comingforward.
I'm being dragged by mentorswho are smarter than me, kicking
and screaming into a leadershipposition.
I really don't want it, butthey're telling me that I've got
to do it.
So I am.
I've decided that I used todream of being invisible, right,
I used to dream of beingcompletely anonymous and just

(24:59):
having my little business and myhorses and minding my own
business.
That's really what I, what Iwant to do in my heart of hearts
, but that's, that's kind of aselfish dream.
And if, if my life is to be ofsomething of value to others,
not just to myself, and if I amto be someone who leads others,
then I need to take that role on.

(25:19):
So I now see it as my duty totake a public position on this
and speak on it.
And it's the oldest parable inthe books it's the emperor's new
clothes.
Right, I'm the kid at the end ofthe village pointing and saying
but the emperor is just naked.

(25:40):
That's who I am, that I am thatvoice.
Everyone else is saying, oh,can't you see the clothes?
Oh, can't you?
No, no, the emperor has noclothes.
I've come into the horseindustry from outside of itself.
I've walked in from selfmotivation, not from family, not
from culture, not from anyother reason other than a love

(26:01):
for the horse, and I'm basicallyan alien voice, but trying to
be a rational voice, but alsoempathic voice and having a
horse training modality that'shere to serve people who don't
have someone to serve them.
So, yeah, it's pretty egregiouswhat's happening to horses.

(26:23):
It continues to be egregious.
They get a pretty raw deal atalmost every level.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yes, I'd have to agree.
Well, I'm glad that you know,I'm glad I, because I didn't
know about it and I was glad tohear about it.
I don't compete, I don't do anyof that, I was never part of
any of that, so, but I know thatbecause of how I feel about
horses when I go places like youdo this too.
You can walk into a barn, andyou can, or a place where horses

(26:52):
are, and you can read rightaway the feeling of how the
horse is.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
I'm not trying to change them, I don't.
I don't think I'm that powerful.
Truly, if there I have a few, Ihave one colleague in
particular that I can think of,who is the right coach to speak
to someone who's deeply investedin a problematic circle around
horses.
She has the right kind of tact,communication style and

(27:29):
information and personal historyto reach into those
environments, speak to thosepeople in a way that doesn't
offend them or trigger their egoand is able to plant seeds
which can help flee, enable themto extricate themselves and to

(27:49):
do things better for horses.
I am not that person.
I'm very clear.
I deal with people who havealready had a moment where
they've gone hang on, wait, whatno?
Then they say, okay, now what'snext?
That's the person that I servebetter.
Or the people who are already,you know, have already decried

(28:10):
it.
Or someone who's got one footin one world, one foot in the
other.
That's who I can speak with.
But people who have got twofeet firmly planted in a circle
around horses, which which Istruggle to find words to
describe the way the horsesexperience that Well, I I'm not.

(28:31):
It's, it's not my thing.
I don't have the the, the tactto deal with someone who is
incapable of putting their egoaside for the horse, I just
can't do it.
It's not me, but I do havefriends and colleagues that I
can refer them to, that I think,that I think are really, really

(28:51):
good at that.
So I'm not trying to be thatfair.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
I understand the line you're talking about because,
as a animal actor trainer, weaudition dogs.
We people bring their pets,since we do auditions, so we and
, if somebody comes in, andtheir methods of training is
what we call force training inthe dog world.
You know, a really harsh collar.
That's completely unnecessary,you know, oh yeah, he'll hold it

(29:16):
, pinches the ear to make himhold it, obd, you know, and and
and so we, instead of likepublicly jumping on this person
and you know, we go like, wow,that that's uh, you got a really
nice dog.
You know she, she's sosensitive and sweet, she
probably doesn't need that kindof collar.
Have you ever thought about,you know, because she's so quick
and wants to learn and please,that you know, well, this is

(29:37):
what they told us to do.
This is what they told us to do.
These are sweet people, you knowmostly, and it's because, well,
this is what they told us atthe, the school to do.
We use this kind of collar.
Or they told us, you know, youknow, whatever, um, or to make
him lay down, pull his legs out.
That's how he's going to learnto lay down, pull his legs, that

(29:57):
, if I want you to lay down, Irun up to you and pull your legs
out.
How are you going to learn tolike you know, unless I shape a
behavior?
And, you know, suggest and wemotivate.
But but it's because, well,this is what they told me.
They listen to an expert andthey think that is what they're
supposed to do, at least most ofthe time.
You know we have to.
So it's education in a nice way.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Education in a nice way, but also giving people back
their autonomy and theirresponsibility, and often people
will resent being given back asense of responsibility.
It's like, okay, they whoeverthey were told you to do that,
but what about youraccountability here?
What do you think about this?

(30:36):
Oh well, I haven't thoughtabout this.
Well, there's the problem.
Start thinking about this.
Like my my quote unquote careerwith with horses started this
way because I wanted to just dothis as a hobby for myself.
But I was getting along withhorses easily compared to some

(30:58):
of the people I was with, and Iwas in some good places.
And I was in some not so goodplaces, and one of these not so
good places I was in it becauseI had no money to be anywhere
else.
So I was in this place and Iwas watching some pretty crappy
stuff happen to a horse.
Pretty, pretty thoughtless,pretty thoughtless stuff
happened to a horse and theywere getting nowhere and they

(31:21):
were headed towards a wreck.
And someone said lucky, dosomething.
And I had this fork in the roadmoment where I could either go
back to sweeping the the barn,which is what I was told to
really do, or I could put thebroom down and I could walk into
that corral and I could dosomething.
So I walked into the corral andI said, okay, everybody, stop,

(31:46):
stop, just stop, think, thinkabout what you are doing.
Look at the horse.
I could hear your boots makecontact with that horse's rib
cage from inside the barn.
What are you doing?
And there's sort of this egg inthe face kind of moment, like a

(32:10):
kid getting caught in themiddle of a crime.
They kind of look up and gowhat?
It's just like this.
It's like everybody, stop whatyou're doing.
And to this day, my voice isstill that I'm here to interrupt
the pattern.
Everybody, put your tools down,stop and think what you're
doing.
Because I really believe mostof us, if we actually thought

(32:34):
about it and took the beginningof that thought and allowed
ourselves to take three moresteps forward with that same
line of thought, we'd all cometo a similar conclusion, which
is oh, this is a problem, yeah,it is a problem.
So, so now we can do somethingabout it.
But I'm very clear I never giveunsolicited advice Ever.

(32:57):
It's inappropriate.
I never do it.
I will never give unsolicitedadvice.
People need to be ready to hearsomething else.
It's wild, it's been too long.
What's happening to horses.
It's just been too long andit's boring.

(33:19):
It's really really boring tosee more and more horses just
what's happening to them.
I mean, it's job security forme because they're giving me
lots of work.
I've got lots of work cleaningup all these messes that are
being left behind horses in mess.

(33:40):
In an ideal world, my currentrole with emotional horsemanship
wouldn't exist.
In an ideal world, I'd be outof work and I'd be able to
return to my primary skill set,which is as a riding instructor
and horsemanship trainer that Icould just talk with people
about, do this like this at thistime, and that's it.
And people go okay, press thebuttons and it's done and it's

(34:02):
nice and it's fine.
But half the work is sort ofdealing with the mess other
people left behind in ananimal's nervous system.
True, yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
True.
No, I have Morgans, morganhorses.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Beautiful, lovely.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
And these are old style Morgans, thank you.
They're old style Morgans, soranch working type horses got to
come to.
Montana, lovely, and I have.
So two are coming three and oneis coming five.
And I get people that don'tknow me because people know me,
do not pressure me because theywouldn't allow it, but people
that don't, you're not ridingthat five year old.
You're not riding her.

(34:40):
You know she's coming five, youhaven't saddled her.
You know, hey, she, her boneshave to finish one.
Yeah, start there, right.
B that horse is certain becauseyou know, I got her as a three
year old coming four year oldand it took months and months
and months to build theconnection and the trust.
And, like, I'm going to be safewith you because she came off

(35:00):
of the Montana range and herwhole world.
She's the watcher.
There's a predator, there's abear, there's a cow, there's
danger, right, come to Wisconsinand it's all just rolling, nice
and pleasant and no bears.
But she doesn't know that,right.
And she came from a herd of 60horses to a herd of seven, right
.
So she's like, she's like, waita minute, there's not enough of

(35:22):
us here to keep everybody safe,you know so.
But knowing it's like a kidwith trauma, knowing they've
been through stuff and beingaware of it and instead of
expecting them to behave likewell, shouldn't he behave?
He's going to behave based onwhat he has only known and
learned you know, and so to becognizant.
So it's taken months and months,and that's fine.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
It's fine, you know yes.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
And I love that.
When I go out there she's likeoh hey, you know, and like I
mentioned earlier, we were goneall week.
Two younger horses too thatcame.
It was really funny because youtalk to your horses, I know you
do the two three-year-olds.
The one ran up right awaybecause she hadn't seen me for
the normal amount of time Ispent with him.
So she runs up, smells me upand down because I smell like

(36:08):
about 20 or 30 dogs from the day, so she sniffs me up and down.
Now the old me would have wentget your nose away from me,
don't get close to me like that.
You're going to bite me.
New me goes I see your bodylanguage, I'm watching you.
Yes, of course, smell, figurethis out.
But she ran up to me and herwhole thing was mom, you've been
gone and my sister has beenpicking on me and, like I said,

(36:30):
I'm not an animal communicator.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
I can't even communicate I'm not an animal
communicator but her feeling oflike, oh, you're finally here
and I have so much to tell you.
I wish everybody had that withtheir horses.
It's the greatest feeling to goout there and have them.
Okay, she's not talking to me,but she's talking to me.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yes, yes, it does make sense.
The horses are one of theuniverse's most gentle, gentle
social creatures.
They, they have the capabilityof forming deep and complex
attachments to each other and tous, and to experience that with

(37:10):
a horse is one of the truepleasures and nectars of
existence, in my opinion.
It's more intense than aconnection with a human.
It's more intense than aconnection with a dog or a cat.
It's just like something onsteroids, it's just.
And the folks who say, oh, don'tlet the horse get close to you

(37:31):
because I'll bite you, I sayyeah, probably.
I believe you that that horseis probably waiting for an
option.
You know it's, it's.
They're actually, from theirperspective, telling their truth
, but it's not the truth thatcan be.
I so agree with you that theconnection that we have with our
horses is the most importantaspect of our life with them,

(37:52):
and if you can build thatconnection, it can form the most
wonderful springboard forexcellent riding and training
and the craftsmanship ofhorsemanship.
I'm very, very clear, because mycritics let's say I'm putting
that in parentheses again thepeople who criticize the pony

(38:13):
pedders like myself, say oh well, you don't ride, you get stuck
in groundwork cycles.
It's like, yes, well, maybeless of our horses are ridden
because we are more discerningabout which horses are
appropriate for that activity,based on their health, their
confirmation, their emotionalprofile.
Not all horses should be ridden, period, because some horses
just don't have the anatomicalhealth for it, some horses don't

(38:35):
have the nervous system healthfor it and we are more
discerning and we put morefilters in place so that the
horses who are ridden truly areready, able and willing to do
that.
But I want to make sure that,if there is to be a change in
horsemanship, that we are ableto return to these tropes, to
these common activities, totallyreimagined, with the horse by

(38:59):
our side as a willingparticipant, truly truly willing
participant, exactly, yes, 100%.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Are you familiar with the sport of agility for dogs?
Mm-hmm Right, does the dogslook like they're having a blast
?

Speaker 2 (39:11):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
See.
So I mean there's probablyabuses in some parts somewhere.
I don't know, but from what Iwatch, I mean you know, at least
in the level they look likethey're having a blast right,
because it's a willing thing.
They're doing it together,we're going together when dogs
are working sheep, I have bordercolleagues, you know, and he's
doing his job, you know.
I don't know if the sheep arehaving a blast, but the dog is
really having a good time.

(39:33):
So when I think that's reallypossible to have a partnership
versus, you know, slaveAbedience, forcing you to do
this yeah.
Yeah, okay, I want to make aquick note about sheep, because
sheep, I'm learning, because Ihave my.
I have a little tiny flock.
I love them beyond words, okay,I can't even explain it.

(39:53):
I love them and they love me.
But they are just like horsesin the sense of how their, their
calming signals, the way theymove as a group is so so because
they're a prey animal as well,right, and so it's really really
fun because they know my voice,they know me, they love me.
Stranger comes in and I candetermine in a second if that
stranger person is going to besomeone that they can connect

(40:17):
with or not.
Based on how can they, the waythe body language is or the way
what they hope they trust.
It's the same as horses.
Horses know right away, thesheep know right away.
Can we trust this person if wenot trust this person?
So I can go to a big sheep farmwhere they're not all pets like
mine A big, big sheep farm.
No, naturally they're going torun away from humans.
It's like we don't want to bearound humans, but if I get into

(40:40):
the spot where I'm quiet, youknow now in the whole dynamic,
and well, I've never seen themcome up to someone like that.
I've never seen them.
So it's all possible withhorses too, of course.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yes, of course it is, and I think we've all known
that it's possible, because evenhorses in problematic systems
of training, despite the systemthey've been living within a lot
of horses, because they'rethey're full of grace, they're
full of forgiveness, they'refull of understanding, a lot of
horses have been able to discernthat though their person is

(41:13):
hard on them, their person is agood person and connected with
them anyway.
And that's to realize, that ishumbling, that a lot of horses
have watched us, as human beingsin a late capitalism hellscape,
struggle, struggle and theyclose the gap.

(41:38):
It's, it's really reallyamazing.
Once you start scratching thesurface on this stuff, it
reaches up, swallows your holeand pulls you down deep into
their world and it's, it's areally nice place to be.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
I really wish everyone could literally have a
horse or have access to horse,because horses are our
connection to the natural world.
They're like a conduit.
Because you're exactly right,you know, because when we go
work in a city, it's like 85miles from here to the city and
we cross into Wisconsin, whichis heaven, I just want you all
to know and we cross westernWisconsin, cross in everything

(42:17):
right in the minute we get homeand get out to the horses and
everything from the whole dayjust goes.
You know, I was out there todaytelling the horse.
You know we photographed allthese dogs, you know, and I was
telling her I was like who areyou talking to?
I'm talking to Rita.
You know she's talking to thehorse because she under you know
, I get it.
I wish everyone had that, youknow.

(42:37):
I feel bad when people don'thave that opportunity and I
think that's that's where we'regoing with horse ownership and
horses in a human world.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
Like you know, 1910, I think it was Henry Ford
invented the internal combustionengine and within 20 years, 20
years later, the equineinfrastructure in cities had
essentially collapsed.
So the farriers, the smitties,the feed producers, the carriage
houses, the whole trainers, thegrooms, this entire

(43:08):
infrastructure which supportedhorses in their service to
people inside metropolitan areas, it collapsed and it continued
to collapse.
Then in around after the SecondWorld War in the 50s, people
were like so what are horses tous now?
Oh, um, they're sporting goods.
Okay, all right.
So then everyone sort of ranahead first into that and then

(43:31):
since the 90s, but particularlyin the last 15 years, people
have gone close.
But no cigar, they're not justanother tennis racket, you know.
They're not just the tool ofthe upper echelons of society to
have some sort of pageantry ata polo match or something.

(43:52):
It's no longer, you know, apiece of meat that we race upon
and gamble with.
They are something else.
And as horses have been pushedout of metropolitan areas and
they're further and further awayfrom the central nucleus of
human society, the people whohave come to horses have had to

(44:15):
demonstrate an increasedmotivation to be around them for
their sake.
For their sake, because they'reless accessible.
So someone's living in ametropolitan area, to get access
to horses because they'reinterested and they love them,
they have to get in their carand drive God knows how long.
It's an ordeal to get there.
And so what you're discoveringin the last 20 years is that you

(44:37):
have people who are less likelyto have grown up with them,
less likely to have that naturalkind of horse sense, because
they're just not exposed to themregularly, but they love them
and are highly motivated forthem.
Who is taking these people bythe hand and saying I got you, I

(44:58):
see you, let's do this together.
Who's doing that for them?
Because the voices that aretypically serving them are
saying you got to tell themwho's boss.
It's like I didn't get in mycar and drive an hour after my
nine to five to beat a horse up.
That's not why I'm here, buddy.
So step up to the plate or losethose clients, because, whether
we like it or not, thoseclients the people that a lot of

(45:20):
professional trainers are quiterude about calling them, you
know, amateurs or inexperiencedor whatever these are the bread
and butter clients that are nowpaying the bills of most horse
trainers.
So we need to pivot anddiscover that we need to treat
them with respect and we need tounderstand their needs and

(45:43):
change our training programs tobe horse centered first, not
performance focused andperformance.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Wow, you are so correct, because I had the very
hardest, hardest time findingI'm in a rural area and finding
a trainer that would treathorses the way I want them to be
treated Right.
It was really, really hard andI finally came across well.
She grew up.
It was a girl I'd known as achild or when she was a child

(46:11):
and, you know, watched her growup.
And then she went out West andwas gone for a while.
She came back to Wisconsin andI'm like, oh, I'm so glad you're
back.
She was on my podcast.
Her name's Tiffany Stoffers andshe came out with my horses and
she's showing me some very softyou know we're trying to work
with this anxious mirror and shesaid you're shouting.

(46:31):
I said I haven't said a word andshe goes no, look, you're
shouting with your.
You know your hand.
You're shouting and she saidyou don't need.
This horse is so sensitive.
You think it she's goingwhisper to this horse.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Right.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
And then she said because you're like a border
collie, because you're, you knowall the time and you don't need
, she said slow slow and I waslike oh, you know, I was ready
to hear it, ready to let it go,you know, and normally people
would have to go to her, butshe's willing to come to me
because I won't take my horse ina trailer yet it's not time

(47:07):
because she's not ready to go inthe trailer yet.
We're not going anywhere yet.
So I'm really blessed to findher right.
But other trainers, you know,oh, there was an incident when
your horse was here.
Get upset about this.
Still, I set the horse to thetrainer he's not a horse I have
now and there was an incident inthe cross ties and he fell back

(47:29):
over and hit his head and we'resorry, you know, whatever I
mean, I'm starting to go likewell, what's going on?
What's going on?
I mean, what's going on?
You think they, you know they,these people that know things,
are working out like okay, we'rethe expert.
And then you, your eyes open upand you just go.
You know, I'm not sending myhorse anywhere, just not.

(47:50):
I don't trust anymore, Right,that's why, tiffany I mean I
trust Tiffany, I suppose, butit'd be traumatic for the horse.
So, that opportunity thatyou're talking about, we need
more people like you.
We need more people trained bypeople like you to help people
like me who want to do the rightthing.
We really, really do, but it'shard to find someone who's
someone who serves us, yeah.

(48:11):
Someone who's not a they whogoes.
You need to.
You know, don't let them, don'tlet them.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
Let me tell you, little lady, their horses are
gonna waiting for theiropportunity to kill you at any
moment.
You got to show them who'sbought.
I'm like, okay, okay, sit down.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing, thankyou for your contribution.
Love you Mean it.
Sit down.
Go and serve an agriculturalistwho takes a two year old with a
liquid pelvis and needs to getthem within six months from

(48:37):
unbroken to working on a feedlot.
Go work with those people.
Yes, with those sorts of horsesyou're going to have to install
all sorts of emergency breaksbecause that horse is going to
have a catastrophic failurebecause you're sitting on a
liquid skeleton at two years old.
Yeah, and so we need tounderstand the etymology from
from which the the systems arespringing forth from.

(48:58):
But I meet a lot of horses, onthat whispering point of view, I
meet a lot of horses that arecoming out of systems, who they
have been yelled at their wholelives and this is the funny part
.
It's funny to me becausethey've been yelled at their
whole lives.
Then they're, they're rescuedor bought by someone who's

(49:19):
deeply caring and wants to havea softly, softly approach, and
so this new owner startsspeaking softly, softly to this
horse and this horse basicallygoes.
Oh God, another language, youknow, I just figured out being
yelled at.
I just barely understood, Ijust barely managed to
understand being yelled at andjust managed to cope.

(49:44):
And what you want to what?
I can't hear you, I can't hearyou.
So they're using small amountsof pressure and the horse is
saying can't hear you, I'drather you you yelled.
Can't hear you, I'll just waitfor the command.
Can't hear you, I'll wait foryou to tell me what to do.
And so owners are coming tothem saying, well, how do you
feel about this?
And it becomes emotionalmonitoring.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
But these horses aren't ready for that as much as
the people aren't.
This happens in the girls, andthe kids that have been have had
terrible trauma and things likethat.
Okay, they're used to beinghandled and talked to and
treated a certain way and youtreat them in a different way.
It goes up their world because,yes, first of all, because it's

(50:27):
human beings.
So then they go.
I don't deserve that, which, ofcourse, right, right, but they
have no understanding.
When one of the girls wasliving with us and my husband's
affectionate, so you know he puthis armor on me, he'd care
about me, you know whatever, andshe got very, very upset
because she was protective of me.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
He's not either.
You don't let him that close toyou because our love is
different.
Right?
She couldn't understand she wasprotecting it, upset her
because he might hurt me.
See, that's who the brain wasgoing.
So now that's a human being,different thing, but a horse
it's quite similar with horses.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
It happens with horses too.
It brings that to the table,right?
Yes, it brings that to thetable.
I say that because if we, ifthere's someone out there
listening who has a horse out ofa system like that and you're
starting to embark on a gentletraining modality, it's highly
possible that this horse at thebeginning will not prefer it.
It's called the Mia exposureeffect.
There's some science on this,the Mia exposure effect that we

(51:22):
animals prefer the thing they'vebeen exposed to the most.
So if they've been exposed toabuse they will prefer the abuse
.
It's something around Stockholmsyndrome as well.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
Humans exactly the same way.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Right.
So horses are the same way.
Horses are the same way and Icall it de-escalation.
So you have to start with whatthe horse understands first,
within reason, within reason,and then you slowly de-escalate
them from there.
But don't start with ourpreferred language with the
horse.
You've got to start with whatthe horse understands and I see

(51:55):
that a lot with my clients ispeople will start with kindness
first.
Whether or not the horseunderstands kindness, it's like
nope, you've got to create thelanguage before you use it.
You've got to build a languageof kindness before the horse can
understand it.
And there's very, very specific,specific things we can do about
this.
But for example, I've got ahorse at home who was always

(52:16):
handled very, very expertly.
He's always had immaculate care.
He's not abused right, he lovespeople.
He's not abused, nottraumatized.
But he has come from a sporthorse stressage environment
where there was a lot ofpressure placed on him.
So he understands high pressurehorse training and handling,
particularly under saddle.
And initially my softly, softlyapproach me, just placing my

(52:40):
hand on his neck and saying, howare you?
Made him very uncomfortable.
He was like just tell me whatto do.
It even happened this week.
I just had a new shelterconstructed on my farm, great,
big, diaphanous, open roof thatthe horses can walk under at any
time they like.
I've got these other horses,these rough and ready kind of

(53:01):
mountain horses.
They saw the roof and went cooland just walk straight under.
My ex-dressage horse walked tothe edge of the roof and went,
oh, I don't know.
And even though he's full offreedoms, he stood at the exit
to the roof and just stood thereand he stood there for 10
minutes and there was hay threesteps in front of him.

(53:23):
There was hay, open hay, andeveryone else had walked in and
he just stood there and said I'mgoing to wait for commands.
And I walked out there.
I stood next to him.
I said what's going on?
He said I'm stuck, this is newand I don't do new things unless
I'm told what to do.
And I went, oh, and at Liberty.
I just pointed forward and saidwalk on.

(53:45):
And he went, thanks.
And then he took three stepsforward and now he can walk
underneath the roof, waited forcommand.
See, you would have thoughtthat he would have loved the
freedom to choose, but theprison is still in his mind.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
That's the set.
That's a exact parallel tohuman trauma.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
There we go.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
There's a window of tolerance, it's called the
window of tolerance Right.
We can only tolerate so muchhealth, so much health and
change good things right.
Like you know, like thatdoesn't feel good, feeling chaos
and feeling all the pain andthe bad stuff happening.
That's what we're used to andwhen we have to start so it real
changes hard, real changesHumans you know animals and

(54:26):
humans.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Well, we are animals.
Humans are animals, of course,right, so there are, there are.
There are only a couple ofthings, very, very specific
neurological aspects of humanswhich separate us from most
other animals, but probably, iforcas, killer whales, if they
had opposable thumbs, they mightdemonstrate a far superior

(54:49):
abstract intelligence evencompared to us.
They are incredibly intelligent.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
They have languages, all the sectations, the dolphins
.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Right.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Yeah yeah, they're doing high math.
I mean, you know we're waybehind.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
So, you know, we need to remember that, though we're
wanting to represent somethingpositive and a change at a
practical level, when we're infront of horses horses who come
from systems, to a certainextent will prefer the system
that they've come from, and whenwe start introducing something
that is a better deal for them,they don't know that it's a

(55:23):
better deal until they know that.
And so having patience andintroducing things to them
slowly and gradually is really,really important.
And to speak about my horseagain, the same horse, about the
, who had got stuck at the roof.
I've had a few trainings withhim which blew his mind.
I'll explain one.

(55:47):
I got him already, you know,groomed him, brushed him out,
went through all the hullabalooand put the saddle on, took him
into the arena and put my helmeton and I got on the mounting
block and we had conversationsaround the mounting block and I
mounted him.
So that's that.
And he was all ready to chargeabout like a dressage horse.
He was head up, was like rightoff to work, clocked in, and I

(56:09):
was just sat there and pet himon the neck and he kind of.
He almost looked at me and said,well, go on, then, tell me what
to do.
And I said hello and just pethim on the neck.
And then within two minutes hetook a breath and stretched his

(56:31):
head down and just sort of went,hmm, and I went exactly, and I
got off, took the saddle off andput him away.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
That was the thing.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
And he looked at me and went who are you?
I said exactly the next day.
The next day, I walked out ofmy house and he saw me, left his
hay and, in silence, in silence, walked with me at Liberty to
the arena and he said you havemy attention.
This is different.

(57:02):
It's not what I expected.
This is different.
That's the key.
Show me what's next.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
I have three old mares that were from Forever
Morgan's Rescue and they hadbeen road horses, driving horses
and from a culture that prettymuch a commodity, and so
everything was work right.
So when the mare first came,very shut down like a dead eye.
I'm obedient, but I'm dead, I'mdead here.

(57:30):
So her name is Glory, and nowwe've had her seven, eight years
and she's 20-something.
Anyway, glory is like as happy,right, because she doesn't do
it, she's a pet, there's noriding her, anything like that,
she just has fun.
Anyway, the young horse likesher butt scratched and that's
how I'm working on getting theback feet up is scratch, scratch

(57:50):
, scratch.
Thank you for the feet scratch,scratch.
So Glory was watching all thisand then never in her life would
she dare ask someone to scratchher there, because we don't do
that with humans.
That's against the rules, right, but she's watching.
And then Soreda walked away andthen Glory looked at me and she
goes back.
She backed up a step and Ididn't go like oh my god.
I'm going to my face.

(58:11):
No, she didn't scream Get outof my space.
I went oh, would you like me?
So then she backed up and Iwent I'm watching her body
language.
And I went how about this?

Speaker 2 (58:22):
And she went, that's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
And then she was like a little kid, like is this
really OK, because I'm going toget hit.
Next Someone's going to yell atme because I'm not supposed to
be here, standing here like thistowards you.
And then now, of course, everyday now, because she's figured
out that it is allowed.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Scratch my butt.
Yes, Right.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
It is allowed.
And I swear, if a horse couldsmile, this old horse with a
droopy old lip, you know whatDisney?
They'd always draw that kind ofbroken down cart horse, that's
what she looks like Because ofthe sway back, she has a goiter.
I mean, she's so ugly, she'sbeautiful and she has a happy,

(59:02):
happy life now.
But it was like that was abreakthrough for her.
Like a human being, can I, can,I can ask for something.
That's what it was.
I can ask for something.
It was really kind of neatBecause all the long time you
know can't ask for anything.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
It's, and I respect the people who are within that
system, because not everyone hasthe luxury to listen to horses
Because they might not be safesocially in the environment.
They're in to be that way withhorses.

(59:40):
They might not be safelogistically or financially to
allow their horses to sayactually no, they might not have
that luxury.
And I want to be really, reallyclear that I have a lot of
humility for those environmentsand those people they have and

(01:00:06):
continue, and those horses, butalso those people, the abusers
aside if I put the abuse, theoutright abuse, on the shelf for
a minute, there are a lot ofgood people who do, who engage
in compromised activities withhorses because they have no
other luxury at their disposal.
Either they don't have theteacher, the means, the social

(01:00:27):
safety, whatever it is toactually be different.
I have humility for them, notfor the abusers.
The abusers I can go push theminto a volcano and never see
them again.
But the others, the good, butthey can't do better people
Because they are paying a billso that we can do a different

(01:00:48):
thing.
They have paid that price andprepared the ground for us so
that we can do somethingdifferent and I thank them for
that They've kind of fallen ontheir sword in a way and if any
of them find a change, I'mdelighted for them.

(01:01:10):
I once did a clinic in NortheastWyoming, in deep cowboy country
, at a roping where I was, andto this day I'm still like I'm
amazed that they invited me.
It was a very small clinicbecause obviously there's not
many people there who areinterested in what I'm doing,
but in this one barn they hadcultivated a small group of

(01:01:33):
people who were doing thingsdifferently and in their own way
.
They were doing very quietstock work, very slow cattle
work, really nice breakawayroping and really good people.
And my host, he's a farrier anda rodeo judge and he was
watching my clinic, particularlyat the end of it, and right at
the end of the clinic I wastalking about patience and

(01:01:53):
slowness and not getting afterthe horses and just asking and
using technique instead of force.
And he was watching, going huh,and he came up and he shook my
hand Once the clinic hadfinished.
He shook my hand and he saidI've got to go because I've got
to go judge a rodeo in Texas, soI need to go drive to Texas, he
said but I want to thank youfor coming, because you've got

(01:02:17):
my mind wandering in places.
It needed to wander.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Ah, that's good.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
And I went.
That's why I'm here.
That's why I'm here, and that'sexactly the kind of
thoughtfulness that comes out ofcowboy culture and cowboy
etiquette.
Cowboy respect is real.
It's a real thing.
Oh, I love the West.
Oh, 100%.
So I have a lot of respect forhorses that come out of that

(01:02:47):
system, and not everyone has theluxury that you and I have to
allow our horses to be parts ofour family.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Right Time.
You know time and the resources.
No, we feel pretty blessed thatway, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Yeah, yeah, it is a privilege.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
This has been amazing .
I mean, I didn't even get tothe questions, but I feel like
we've kept you a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Well, if you've got questions, I'm happy to answer
them.
If you've got any that arereally important to ask, there's
two more things.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
I want to talk to you about this question here, and
then I want to ask you what yourfuture looks like, because I'm
really interested in that andyou're coming to Wisconsin in
the spring, right, yeah?
So I just want to audit and Iwant to come and photograph and
I want to.
Just, you know, I don't have ahorse, I'm not bringing a horse,
I can't, I'm not doing trailertraining yet.
That's down the road, that'snot even happening yet.

(01:03:42):
But but I want to come and meetMichelle and, and you know, and
that's like six hours or five,six hours, so not bad, ok, but
the quote here that I wanted totalk about well, you wrote a
post not to long go on Facebooktraining aids that make your
body bigger and that, like that,was one of them that I read

(01:04:03):
that.
I just went and have you explainit, but I read it in my again.
I think I'm I'm like I'm an OKperson, I'm doing my best, right
, but I'm a girl, so that's partof it.
And you know, I can get scaredof horses if they get really big
near me Now I got a little 14hand Morgan horses, right, but

(01:04:24):
if I was dealing with a greatbig warm blood that's 17 hands
and pull them.
You know there's a reason forme to feel like I need to be
bigger you know, because I'm notmaking my body language big
enough or whatever.
When I first got rid of the onethat was nervous, I worked
through the fence for thelongest time because she would
turn and be ready to kick, andso, instead of putting myself in

(01:04:46):
a spot where I had to get someaid to keep her away, I just
worked from a safe place, right?
But so I'm going to have toexplain that how I train
training aids make your body.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
That make your body bigger.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Yeah, let's talk about that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
So some of these aids include sticks, whips, crops,
spurs, flags, throwing ropes etc.
Targets to a certain extentAlso anything that's a body
extender or a pressure enhancer,so that underneath that would
also come bits, particularlyleverage bits, or even

(01:05:26):
hackamores.
Leverage hackamores even bothstyles used in the Texas
tradition will do the same thingAnything that's here to
leverage the human.
I'm really interested in whatthe human body and the horse
body can do together in anedited, pared down way.
If we just took all of thosetrappings away, what's really

(01:05:49):
there?
It's kind of the essence ofLiberty work, for example, but
often I don't use the wordLiberty, because Liberty
training these days is oftenjust a conditioning process
where they condition, conditionand then remove the tack.
And now the horse is doingthese things without tack, but
they were trained to do it withtack.
It's like watching a circus Likewatching a circus and there's
amazing things we can do withhorses.
But we know that throughbehavioral conditioning and

(01:06:11):
using the right science and theright techniques, you can kind
of train a horse to do anything.
I mean you could probably, withenough time and enough clicker
training, you could probablytrain a horse to read the Bible
to you.
I mean there's so many thingsyou can do.
But I'm not interested in that,I'm interested in something
else.
But it really started for mebecause my first horse that came

(01:06:32):
into my life, my ownership intomy life, forbade me to use
anything except the most simpleequipment.
When I say he forbade me, Imean he's built like a brick
shed house and would explosivelyescape if my hands had anything
in them that extended and mademy body bigger.

(01:06:54):
His message to me was Lockie, Iheard you.
I heard you when your littlefinger lifted.
You don't need to make it bigger.
Right, you don't need to makeit bigger.
And I was like, interesting,and so I had to train him
without all of these things, andso I learned how to lunge

(01:07:17):
horses at all paces, how toincrease impulsion at all paces,
how to train lateral work andcollection at all paces, without
spurs, without a stick andwithout excessive leverage, just
keeping it as simple aspossible, because I had a horse.

(01:07:39):
That forced me to pay attentionto detail and forced me to have
a technique.
Now there are a lot of peoplewho use a stick and they say but
it's an extension of my hand.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
And for the regular audience, explain stick, so that
some people might not knowhorses and visualize a limb of a
tree.
So just explain what you meanby stick.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Well, for some people it literally is a limb of a
tree.
I mean, in academic art ofwriting they actually use willow
branches or cherry treebranches, for example.
It's basically a whip.
Right so that form and functionRight In various forms.
Some of them have a lash on theend, some of them don't.

(01:08:17):
There's various differentiterations of them.
But they'll use it as an armextender and they'll use it to,
for example, they'll stand infront of the horse at the nose
and they'll be doing some workin hand, which is ground work,
academic ground work, andthey'll be able to reach and
actually touch the longest partof the horse's body away from

(01:08:38):
them, because they've got thatarm extender there.
I'm able to train horses to usetheir hindquarters without me
touching them, even if I'mstanding at the nose, just by
signal, by position and bymovement and body language.
So there are ways you can do itwithout a stick.
But there are a lot of peopleuse sticks that say it's an

(01:08:58):
extension of my hand and I'venever hurt my horse with them
and I think that's again anotherhuman rationalization which is
very, very good.
And if that is true, if that istrue, wonderful, wonderful.
But in my experience it's veryrare to find horses whom have

(01:09:20):
never been hurt or madeuncomfortable by these tools.
Because if the stick, if thewhip is truly not here to hurt
or force compliance by animplied threat of if you don't,
I will tap you enough so that itstings so that you do it, if

(01:09:41):
that is true, why not put a softcovering on the end?
Why does it have a bite?
Why does it have a sting?
Even horsemanship flags, whichyou can't actually physically
hurt them, which I actuallyprefer, a flag, and I've used
flags quite a bit.
I prefer a flag because even ifyou came in accidentally really
, really hard with the tip of it, it's not going to sting the

(01:10:04):
skin, but the flap of it forsome horses is really
frightening.
And if we use flags, you, in myopinion, you must first
condition them to not be afraidof the flapping fabric.
So if you're using flags butyou haven't spent a long time
making sure that the horse isnot afraid of the flapping
fabric, then you're using fearto comply or to create more

(01:10:27):
forward motion.
I don't know about you, barbara, but the idea of sitting on a
600 kilogram flight animal withrocks for feet who is afraid or
is feeling motivated by pain andthen potentially going at speed
sounds like a suicide missionto me and that just doesn't feel

(01:10:52):
like a productive way to use mylife.
So I'm really interested inediting back these things, not
because I'm trying to shamepeople for using these things,
because I've used them too, andin that Facebook post I
described an example of duringmy education with horses and my
education's ongoing.
It will continue.

(01:11:13):
For the rest, of my life.
But I remember being tasked withthe rehab of a six year old
horse who was jumping at a GrandPrix level by the time he was
five and he was sent to mytrainers because he had become
completely unmanageable andaggressive and I was tasked with

(01:11:38):
helping with his rehab.
Firstly, we had to just turn himout with the horses for a year
because you couldn't touch him.
So he was turned out into aherd for a year and then we
brought him in and when I wasgrooming him for the ride, if he
couldn't bite he would beswinging his hindquarters back
around to try and double barrelyou just as you're brushing him.

(01:12:00):
And it was terrifying,terrifying, terrifying, when all
the other horses are gentle andthis horse is actually trying
to kill you.
And I'm very clear he wastrying to kill us because he had
good reasons to from hisprevious life, right, and he
also ended up being diagnosedwith some problems in his hind
end and so if he was jumping ata high level with that kind of

(01:12:23):
pain, of course he's going totry and defend himself from
going to work.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
What did?

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
you say Five years old, I was six.
So inappropriate, soinappropriate.
So anyway, if this horse was inmy life now I wouldn't have
been riding him, but they askedme to do it, and so the only way
I could prepare him for theride was if I had a stick in my
hand to defend myself.
And I found that with the stickI could defend myself.

(01:12:50):
And then it was like, oh my God, I can protect myself around
this large animal.
And that was like, oh, and thatwas inappropriate, because I
was using violence to protectmyself and threats of violence
to protect myself against aviolent animal.
But at the same time, thesolution to be kicked to death
is not a solution.
My solution today would be towork in protected contact and

(01:13:10):
not train that horse until itwas appropriate to do so.
But my solution back then, was astick and I remember the day
when I dropped the stick becauseI looked at him and he looked
at me and he was like I don'twant to kick you, because by
that time I'd spent six monthsproving myself to him in the
training and I transitioned himfrom a bridal to a neck rope and

(01:13:31):
he taught me how to jump smalljumps on a neck rope and he
taught me how to ride forrehabilitation purposes.
So part of his physical therapywas very, very good biomechanics
in riding.
So he taught me all of that andhe's like I don't want to kick
you and I was like, well, whyhave I got this stick?
He's like, exactly, and Idropped the stick.

(01:13:52):
I never needed it again.
But the confidence stayed in mybody and then I asked myself
the question am I bringing aninternalized stick to the horses
I manage?
Am I bringing a feeling in mybody that says don't try it with
me, because I have the abilityto?
Am I, am I bringing that tohorses?
That's in?

(01:14:12):
Is that internalized, eventhough I don't have a stick in
my hand?
Is that internalized?
And Every time I'm at a clinic,for example, and someone hands
me their horse to demonstrate,the first thing I do is take a
breath and make sure that that'snot in my body, because some
horses, if they perceive thatyou've got that internalized
somatic stick, they will obeyyou because they know that human

(01:14:35):
energy.
Yeah they'll obey you and itlooks like well then, how come
he can do it with you but notwith me?
Because he can sensepotentially your propensity for
potential violence.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
So he's just gonna in law enforcement.
It's called command presence.
There we go Right because theywant you to comply right so if
you bring command presence To asensitive horse or any horse.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Now there's a time and a place for command, for
command presence.
So, for example, when I wastransporting my horses across
Spain this summer to come to ourfinal home, I said horses, I
love you.
We've been preparing for sixmonths for trailer loading.
The decision is made we'regetting in the trailer.
Get in the trailer right.
Get in the trailer, especiallywhere we were loading.

(01:15:24):
We were loading on the side ofa highway, so there was there
was no time for right.
We prepared them.
What you got to do, you knowwhat you got to do.
There's a time and a place forthat.
But yeah, this post about abouttraining aids is is not to to
say that they're inherently evil.
It's just to encourage peopleto take a closer look at them
and to understand why they'reusing them.

(01:15:47):
Is it there as a crutch?
And if it is there as a crutch,are there ways we can help
someone feel safer with horses?
Are there ways that we canimprove someone's technique so
that they don't have that astheir only option?
Maybe patience is the answer,and maybe the spurs which create

(01:16:07):
high-level collection can beachieved by just Conditioning
the horse for longer exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
No, you know you know , these mustangs not my mortgage
, but I like the act likemustangs because they were in
the range They've taught me somuch about, because the one that
I was, because she wouldthreaten to double bear you that
was her protection and that'swhy I said took a long time, but
now I really can read your bodylanguage.
I don't feel that at all.
But today Some of the fencecame down it's just a web

(01:16:37):
Electric fence to say fence.
Anyway, I've been gone and Icame, I've picking up, cleaning
up.
I'm carrying this kind of whitefence stuff.
I'm gonna take it away.
And they all got excited so Ilet them explore it and smell it
because they thought it wasfascinating.
But I remember telling myselfbecause they're kind of milk,
the three young ones are likedancing and kind of getting like
are they gonna know where I amright?

(01:16:58):
And old me would have been,like you know, really threatened
by their happiness becausereally they were just playful.
But I went literally out loudto myself energy, I'm walking
with energy, see me, I'm herewith energy.
And they went like, oh, you'reokay, we're all having fun.
But we know you're there, weare paying attention.
But I didn't go the hey, youknow, like hold that, that, that

(01:17:20):
it was just like literally tomy head.
I said see, I and I felt happyabout it like you're happy, I'm
happy, we're all happy, I gotthis cool thing you're all
interested in, but I don't wantyou to get tangled in it, so
we're gonna go put it away, youknow.
But I thought to myself I gotto bring more interesting optics
out there because that was a,this was a great game, you know.
Yeah, but old me would havebeen hey, get up, back, back up,

(01:17:41):
you know right, because I feelthreatened, right, but I didn't.
I felt happy.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
Yeah whole, change a whole yeah, so command presence
from joy and play rather thancommand presence through anger
and rage.

Speaker 1 (01:17:59):
Right or fear, which there's, so fear.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
Yeah exactly.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
Well, man, I'm I'm gonna process, keep thinking
about this.
What I love about editing theseis I get to learn it all over
again.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
That's the best part for me.
So the last things I want toask you about is where can
people Learn more about you?
We're gonna put all the linksyou gave us, of course, on the
show notes and things, but youcan certainly talk about what's
the best way to communicate withyou.
You're coming to the UnitedStates, so you'll be doing it
for my US listeners.
You'll be doing clinics, butyou do clinics other parts

(01:18:33):
places too, right, yeah, yeah.
So that's pretty cool.
And then, the best part,because we have the internet,
people can, you know, consultwith you, just like we're doing
right now and Through your, yeah, sign up.
But on your website you havelike a free booklet, like a
whole thing, like I was readingthat today.
There's there's a lot of freeinformation just to get started,

(01:18:56):
so when they say something, youcan look at your own heart and
decide what's best for you andyour horse.
I said I'll listen to them andwhat they've always done, so
what's the best way for To startthe journey with you?

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
Best way would be to follow my social media and then
go and have some fun on mywebsite.
The website is emotionalhorsemanshipcom because it's not
my name, it's not luckyPhillipscom.
It's emotional horsemanshipcombecause emotional horsemanship
is a horse training methodologywhich has wings that can fly

(01:19:35):
outside of my personality.
This is not a cult ofpersonality.
Thank God that I'm building,that I'm building something that
can exist without me.
So Go to my website, emotionalhorsemanshipcom.
You can find more informationthere, not only about me and my
horses and Podcasts andeverything, but you can also

(01:19:58):
book in to have sessions with me.
So private sessions is stillsomething that I love to do.
I'm kind of fairly bookedSometimes the 130 in the morning
right, right.
So I'm kind of 80 90% full from.

(01:20:20):
We're filming in February.
I'm 80 90% booked out untilJuly this year, but there are
still availabilities.
You can do coaching sessionswith me where we watch videos of
your training together and talkit through.
We also do live lessons.
So I sit here from my officeand I teach all around the world
Using pretty simple technologyreal lessons in real time with

(01:20:42):
horses.
I'm watching in real time andgiving them real instructions.
So I do that.
I teach 50 60 people a weeklike this.
I also have online courseswhich you can sign up for at any
time.

Speaker 1 (01:20:57):
Right, yep, check that out.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
I also have a video library, where I put new content
there every week.
That's super accessible andreal time, and I put out tons of
stuff on social media as well.
You can learn.

Speaker 1 (01:21:10):
I learned to read and learn from the comments of the
people that are kind of on thesame page.
They bring a lot to the bestpart about emotional
Horsemanship is the communitythat's building behind it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
That is really the best part.
If you anyone listening who'sever felt really alone like
you're the only person thinkingabout this way, I want them to
know that you're really notalone.
You're so not alone that Ican't keep up with the demand
right for this, this kind ofwork.
I'm in the process ofpotentially building some

(01:21:42):
instructors so that I can meetthe demand, and I've even got a
group of people who meet everyweek for free under the banner
of emotional horsemanship,without me there.
You know they meet every week.
So there's a community building.
It's one of the, it's one ofthe best aspects of this.
So come and join us, come jointhe circus.

(01:22:03):
It's nice over here.
That's where you can find me.

Speaker 1 (01:22:07):
Oh, that's fantastic, Okay.
So then my last question iswell, okay, I'm curious.
You're going to write a bookbecause you're one of the best
models, articulate person toexplain what you're talking
about.
I mean, just when I read yourpost and the way you write, you
know it's like someday.
You just keep that in mind.
You know, maybe writing is oldschool, but, man, I like a good
book and I just think that you'dcertainly everyone would

(01:22:31):
benefit from that.
And then the other questionwhat's your, what's the future?
Where do you want to be?
What's next?

Speaker 2 (01:22:37):
Thank you.
So I have a 19th century soul,so writing is something I really
enjoy.
I've always enjoyed it.
So I just don't have time tosit down into a book right now.

Speaker 1 (01:22:47):
It sounds like it.
No, it sounds like it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:50):
I don't know.
I don't have time, so I'm toobusy lifting myself and my
family out of 20 years of apoverty cycle.
So I'm too busy doing that.
But there will be a book in thefuture.
Probably the first book will begathering the social media
posts that I put together.
Yeah, there you go and then canediting them, conjoining them,

(01:23:13):
connecting them and and forminga seamless you have been writing
a book Right.
Right, but just very, veryslowly, and all the chapters are
on social media.
But that'll probably be thefirst book when I'm ready to do
that.
But the future, well, no oneknows.
But I'm very, I'm veryoptimistic and excited about the

(01:23:38):
future because I have theenergy and the motivation, I
have the horses and the supportin the community to take this
and really start to fly with it.
What's happened so far isessentially just chapter one.

(01:24:02):
I have some mentors whobusiness mentors, because I
don't know anything aboutrunning a business, but they do
who are helping me put togethera few things which are going to
really change the game.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
That's great.

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
So the future is very bright.
We can expect a lot morecommunity, a lot more growth,
and they're they're reallyencouraging me.
These mentors of mine arereally encouraging me to step
into a leadership role here,which I'm very reticent to do,

(01:24:45):
but I think that reticencequalifies me to handle that
potential leadership roleresponsibly.
That goes hand in.

Speaker 1 (01:24:52):
Yeah, I'd have to agree.
I heard your voice.
I know that other people heardyou on social media and we're
finding you speaking for thehorses.
You are unique voice and I'vetalked to some really amazing
people.
We've you know, I've been ableto have some, and they're all on
the same page with us.
But you are unique voice andpart of it also that's unique is

(01:25:13):
you're a younger person.
You know in this, and so youunderstand how to communicate to
a whole generation differentlyyou know which is great, because
that's who's.
who is that brave person whotook that video?
We know it was a young person.
We know it was some brave youngperson who, if that got out or
wherever they would, in thatworld they wouldn't have a job.

(01:25:34):
They get in trouble, right, butthey cared about the horse.
So good on them, good on you.

Speaker 2 (01:25:41):
Thank you Well, thank you for having me here today.
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:46):
Thanks, like, appreciate it, I think.

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Lockie Phillips - When it comes to Horses, Obedience is Out and Empathy is In - S2 E3

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Lockie Phillips - When it comes to Horses, Obedience is Out and Empathy is In - S2 E3