January 25, 2024 • 57 mins
Join us as we speak with cat behaviorist, Mikel Delgado about how your cat's name can affect its personality and why it's hard for some cats to just get along. Learn about Mikel's journey from being in a punk rock band to cat expert. Learn how to make a happy home for multiple cats and discover easy ways to keep your cat content.Get simple tips to take better care of your cat and enjoy a closer connection. Tune in for an enlightening and fun chat about cats!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer, and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
This is Barbara O'Brien andyou're listening to the
Empathetic Trainer podcast.
Today's guest is Michael MurielDelgado.
(00:35):
She's a certified appliedanimal behaviorist and certified
cat behavior consultant.
She co-founded a cat consultingbusiness called Feline Mines
and her new book, play With yourCat, is available March 5, 2024
.
She also has a blog called whatyour Cat Wants, and she lives
with three rescue cats namedCoriander, ruby and Professor
(00:57):
Scribbles.
So we're pretty excited to haveyou here, michael, and I love
the names of your cats.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I think we should start out with Professor
Scribbles, because we need toknow how did you get his name.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Well, actually Professor Scribbles is a she, so
all of my cats are sisters andyou know it's kind of funny.
I had a client, a cat behaviorclient, who had a cat named
Scribble and I just loved thename.
And after I met with thatclient I talked to my boyfriend
and I was like what do you thinkabout the cat named Scribble?
And he's like I love it.
And so we just always had it inthe back of our head.
(01:34):
We had two cats at the time andwe had it in the back of our
head that when we had a futurecat there would be a cat named
Scribble or some variation ofScribble.
And we kind of settled on.
I like cats to have a job.
So my cat, coriander she'sactually a Supreme Court justice
, so her full name is justicecoriander moonbeam and Ruby is a
(01:56):
train conductor, so that's herjob.
And then Scribbles I think partof it was also because I got a
PhD but did not get a job as aprofessor.
So I thought someone in thehouse should be a professor.
So Scribbles got the job ofbeing the professor in the house
A little vicarious.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
That's how they got their jobs.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, exactly, it was like my failed career turned
into a job for her, but her PhDis in Scribbling so it's not
very useful.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, for a cat, though, it's pretty impressive,
I think, naming cats.
I mean, just to get on thesubject of naming cats, I think
it's really important and youmay agree, that we give them
names that we have affection for.
So, like with all my cats overthe years and I have a, I like
we have cats and so they've hadthe girls have had glamour names
(02:46):
, like Evelyn and Marilyn, and,you know, Louisa, beautiful
1930s, 40s actresses, you know,and for some reason, the boy
cats, especially years ago, andmy, my children were young.
They're a lot of the house, butwhatever they were studying in
history, that's what the catswere named, you know.
So we had a Churchill and wehad a Roosevelt and we had, you
know, some, and when John Adamswas out, that was popular, we
(03:08):
had, you know, some cats namedfor that.
Eliza, you know that's fun,yeah, things like that.
So, but having things you'dlike that you feel good, saying
that, you feel good about us,they're saying dumb cat, you
know, or something.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, yeah, when I used to work in an animal
shelter, I do remember, so partof my job was I worked in a
private shelter and every day wewould go to the public shelter,
which was San Francisco AnimalCare and Control, and pull cats
from that shelter to be put upfor adoption.
And I do.
I'll never forget this one cat.
Her name was PETA, which Ibelieve was short for pain in
(03:40):
the ass, and yeah.
I do a dog name that was it kindof broke my heart a little bit,
like you know.
I just I do.
I agree with you that you knowthese are names, their terms of
endearment, and of course mostof us have like 1000 nicknames
for our cats that we use anyway.
But I feel like you should giveyour cats a you know acute name
or a cool name, something thatthat respects them and doesn't
(04:04):
cause derision, or even you knowproblems for like your
veterinarian to call their namein the lobby right when you're
at the clinic.
So I didn't even thought ofthat.
I do find it funny, though,when, when people give their
cats very human names, like kindof cats named well, my friend,
her cat's name is Josh, and Ifind that to be a very funny
name.
But given that you mentionedthat you've given your cats some
(04:26):
some names after, after people,I tend to lean towards the more
like I don't know cutesy, Iguess.
Like are Professor Scribbles,right, it's kind of silly.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
But no, I think that's wonderful because, like
we have George, what his name is, king George, you know so good.
Yeah, so they're always.
They're always like that.
But I think we're on the samepath, same mindset, that they
should have some, some goodfeeling when we say the name.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I mean, I think the same is true when we talk about
animals in general.
Right, Like words matter thiswas again something that came up
all the time in the animalshelter is we were writing plans
for specific animals whether itwas veterinary and writing
notes or us writing behaviornotes about the cat that we
(05:16):
didn't use terms like mean orjerk when we were talking about
the animals, even if they weremaybe not what we would consider
friendly, right.
So it was always reallyimportant, rather than using
labels to describe the behaviorsthat we're observing so this
cat is hiding, this cat may biteor scratch if you approach too
(05:39):
quickly instead of saying thiscat is a jerk because those
labels do color how we work withthat animal or how we perceive
them, or even you know how weperceive their behavior.
When I work with clients, it issomething that I really have to
get them to describe theproblem in terms that are really
about the behavior and nottheir interpretation of the
(06:01):
behavior or their emotionalresponse to the behavior,
because it really does make itmore difficult to, I think,
understand the pet's perspectiveif you're just seeing them as a
jerk or as jealous or trying toget with that Right.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
No, in the horse world there is a shift in the
horse world, and I think the dogworld too, to do the same sort
of things, because they'd belike, oh, this horse doesn't
respect me or he's stubborn, orhe's bad, or he's being a jerk,
and that colors, like you said,our perception, and then from
what I've learned from someother guests we've had that are
work with energies or talk aboutenergies it gives their.
(06:37):
Your energy is in your words.
Like you said, words havemeaning and that meaning is our
energy, like when we say thewords, how we feel about it, and
the animals can feel that right.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yes, yeah, and I don't know why humans need
respect so much from everyonethat we deal with.
I don't need my cats to respectme.
I need my cats to be happy.
It's more about the horse thing.
but yeah, for sure, but I hearit all, oh no, I hear it all the
time from cat owners too.
Yes, dog owners, cat owners.
There is really this idea thatif we're in charge, if we're the
(07:09):
parent or the boss, thatsomehow our pets should respect
us, and I find that very strange.
That's not the mindset I haveabout animals and or even human
relationships, I guess.
Oh right, yeah.
Yeah, that's not my go to, buthumans do tend to be a little
obsessed with hierarchies andwho's in charge.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Oh, that's true.
That's true, yes, well, therewe go.
We've got the cat naming thingdone.
Give your cat a good name Fairenough, all right.
Please, okay.
Well, michael, I'm reallycurious.
How did did you know you weregoing to grow up and be a cat
(07:52):
lady in this sense, where youwere able to help other cat
people?
I mean, what was your path?
Because I knew I was going tolive on a farm and have animals.
I just didn't know I was goingto be an animal actor, trainer
and a photographer.
I just knew it was going to besomething with animals.
I just got real lucky.
How did it?
How did it start for you?
How did you?
What was the beginning of allthis?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, I mean I wish I could say that I was one of
those people that had a clearpath from childhood, but I
definitely did not.
I have always loved cats andhad cats, or family members have
had cats throughout my life,but definitely was not one of
those people who thought, oh,I'm going to be a veterinarian
or I'm going to work in a zoo oranything like that.
I mean I was pretty aimless asa kid and then I got into punk
(08:35):
rock and actually, you know,like I said, had cats, but they
were my companions and not mycareer.
And I actually dropped out ofcollege when I was 21 because I
wanted to move to California andbe in a punk band, and that's
basically what I did.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Were you from originally, then if you moved to
California yeah, I grew up inMaine oh, that is, you moved
like as far as you couldpossibly go one ocean to another
?
Yes, and you're pretty young,pretty young, at this point.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I was young yeah, I was 21.
So I mean, I moved out of mymom's house when I was 17.
So I was kind of an early youknow.
This was back when you couldactually afford to leave your
parents home, when you wereyoung and I was pretty
independent kid.
So I yeah I California waswhere I wanted to be.
I wanted to live in the BayArea.
There was a really thrivingpunk scene and a lot of
(09:26):
political activism that I wantedto be a part of.
So I moved to California.
I started working at a naturalfoods cooperative, which was a
non hierarchical.
Non hierarchical work structure.
There were no managers, it wasall democratically run and that
was definitely a reallyformative place to work for a
long period of time.
And during that time I was alsovolunteering in some
(09:49):
collectively run punk spaces andstarted a band.
And it wasn't until one of mycats passed away that that was
kind of the where my life headedin a different direction.
And that was because I stillhad another cat, so that my cat
who passed away his name wasKiddoms, and I still had a cat
named Jesus.
He was a great little cat.
But when Kiddoms passed away, afriend of mine had recently
(10:13):
started volunteering at thelocal animal shelter and my
friend Casey, and he was likeyou know, I think it would
really help you get through yourgrief to volunteer at the
shelter.
So he wanted me to hang out atthe shelter with him because he
was having fun and I was like,yeah, that sounds great.
So I started volunteering at theanimal shelter this was the San
(10:33):
Francisco SPCA and pretty muchas soon as I got there I noticed
that they had this special wardof cats that were off limits to
most volunteers and it wastheir behavior ward and these
were cats who needed special,basically, support to cope with
the stress of being in a shelter.
They needed specially trainedvolunteers and I was like, oh, I
(10:54):
want to work with those cats,how do I get to do that?
And so I started volunteeringin their behavior program, and
so this was pretty amazing atthe time because this was in
2000.
So we're talking almost 24years ago.
Yeah, that the shelter had awhole department devoted to cat
behavior, yeah, we stopped.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
We stopped you right there because most shelters you
know, I mean a lot of shelters,especially back then okay, out
of necessity, if a cat wasdifficult, that was the end of
the cat.
Sure, I mean, you know it hadto be at that time.
I think it's getting better but, yeah, right, so that was a way
ahead of its time where theywere to actually try to help
(11:35):
these cats so they could getadopted.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, and even just having staff on hand to do the
work to help these cats and alsohelp cat owners.
So I began volunteering withthis program and basically I
volunteered there so much thatwhen one of the staff in the
behavior department was going onmaturity leave, they were like,
oh, do you want a job?
And I was like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So yeah, that was kind of that was that was it.
I started working in their catbehavior program and learning a
lot about cats, learning a lotabout behavior, helping a lot of
cat owners.
So we would do matchmaking inthe shelter.
So someone came in and theywere looking for help making a
cat.
We would help them.
But we also had a behaviorhotline so anybody in the world
(12:22):
could call this free hotline ifthey had behavior questions.
Wow, so I got a lot of my mytraining on that hotline and we
would get easily over 100 callsa month oh sure, yeah, from you.
Know people all over the worldwith behavior problems, ranging
from my cats peeing on my bed tomy cats biting my husband, to
(12:43):
we're having a baby and our catsfreaking out.
You know all kinds of the wholegamut of behavior things.
And so I got a lot of trainingon the job and basically, when
my coworkers the maturity leavewas over, they decided to keep
me.
So I ended up working at theshelter for almost eight years.
Okay, when I left, the personwho went on maternity leave was
(13:07):
Dilara Perry.
She is now my business partnerat Feline Mines, so we both left
the shelter around the sametime to start our business and
the point of that was really tokind of be able to devote more
time to people who had behaviorproblems.
So, operating a hotline, youdon't have a lot of time to give
people.
It was really like here's somequick tips and here's some
handouts and you know that'shelpful.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, so you're going to be able to devote more to
helping.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
So we started doing, you know, home visits and
spending more time with ourclients, giving them, you know,
much more personalized behaviormodification plans so that they
could solve behavior problemsand hopefully keep cats in the
home, because that's really thewhole point of why we do
behavior Well.
It's not just to keep kept athome.
It's a big part of it,especially if you come from a
shelter background is just like.
We got to keep these cats inthe home.
(13:52):
We don't want them to end up inthe shelter, but a lot of it is
preserving the human animalbond.
And then a huge part of it isalso making sure that cats have
good welfare, because I think alot of companion animals may be
loved, they may have basic care,but they don't have great
welfare.
Their lives are missing a lotof the things that they need,
and so this is also anopportunity to educate cat
(14:13):
owners about how to make theircats happy, or how to give them
the things that they need to beboth a good companion animal
with good behavior, but alsomake sure they're a happy
companion animal.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Oh, absolutely, and what a wonderful thing then.
Do you feel that this is?
So you go back a little bit intime to as well?
Because I remember back it waslike, you know, throw people
through their cats outside, sure, and that's fine.
If you have an outside, youknow safety, whatever.
I mean that can be done safelyif you have this set up and
(14:44):
whatever.
But it was like, you know,nighttime, throw the cat out now
where I live, you know coyoteswould eat them, yeah, and where
I live too, I mean I wouldn't bevery smart.
But do you think it's changedwhat I'm trying to say?
I guess my question is do youthink that people are becoming
more aware of how a cat mightfeel like caring, caring more
about how to make things nicefor their cats?
(15:05):
Do you think people are moreaware?
I know they are more aware withhorses.
That's a growing trend.
I know they're certainlygetting more aware with dogs.
That's been a growing trend.
So I think it's getting betterfor animals.
But, boy, there's still a lotfor all of us to learn with
right.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yes, absolutely no.
I do think that there have beenimprovements.
Certainly, cats, social mediareally changed the public
profile of cats.
Right Now, you know, cat videosbecame the thing for good and
bad.
Sometimes these videos are nota positive thing for cats, but
certainly no.
You can tell the stress, yeah,yeah.
But I think it did elevate catsas a companion animal and I do
(15:44):
think that when I don't like tosound like an old person or
anything, but I do think theyounger generations are more
thoughtful in their petparenting and more open to maybe
less of that we were talkingabout early, like the need for
respect and that kind ofhierarchical approach and maybe
more compassionate.
(16:05):
And you know, I think there'sthere's probably different
reasons for that, but I do thinkthat there's there's movement
in the right direction.
We still have a lot ofchallenges and certainly, you
know, cats populate very quickly.
We still have an overpopulationissue.
We still have a lot of issueswith, you know, feral cats and
the debate over birds and catsbeing outside, but I think that
(16:30):
there is more interest.
Certainly, my business hasincreased.
There's a lot more people doingbehavior consulting.
When I started, if I toldpeople what I did for a living,
they were very confused and itwas probably I don't remember
what when the show my Cat fromHell came out.
That was a TV show, that was youknow Jackson Galaxy show about
(16:53):
behavior consulting and thensuddenly people are like oh,
this is a thing, like I can hiresomeone to help me with my cat.
So that's actually in a lot ofways really beneficial to the
field, because it did increasedemand for the service.
No, you're right.
Yeah, so I think there's,there's.
I think people don't feel asweird about hiring someone to
help them with their cat asmaybe they did when I started,
(17:15):
at least seem very embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeah, no, now I get it when I explained that I
trained cats.
Well, and we're not eventraining cats you know for to be
on set to be an electric.
We're shaping behaviors andrewarding behaviors and being
happy about it, because I can'tuse them if they're not happy.
Yeah, so so it's like I'vechosen cats that really enjoy
this work, you know, and I keepthem their whole lives because,
gosh, our last cat, what thelast cat we had to put down, was
(17:42):
19 because, you know, finally,finally, after everything, or
kidneys, evelyn slept on my headevery night and that was only
been a couple months, so youunderstand that.
But I mean I keep them theirwhole lives and so I choose them
really carefully.
But so when I say to people Itrain cats, they're like that's
not possible.
Oh, hey, you know, having anice cat helps, but you can.
(18:03):
You can help encouragebehaviors that you're looking
for and I want to.
I went to your website in yourblog and I want everyone that
the links will be in the shownotes and everything like that.
Michael has a wonderful blogand Michael's very big on
Instagram, which is where Ifound you.
So that was fun, nice,excellent.
(18:28):
And I went to one of your mostrecent ones you talk about with
your multiple cats.
Okay, is here guilty multiplecat household?
Here Sometimes you're openingyourself up for behavior
problems because cats a resourcethey have, like they want to
get, they can guard resources orwant to be at the stairs
staring at the one at the bottomof the stairs and what the
(18:49):
bottom stairs can't get up tothe litter box or whatever.
So you need to have all thoseenough litter boxes, enough
places to eat, enough places.
But I had not thought of thisand I've been doing this a while
and I was really surprised andhappy to see this.
You're one of your recent blogsor post talks about having
enough spaces in your bedroomfor the cats to sleep
comfortably on the same roombecause, as a rule, they want to
(19:11):
be with you but as a rule, notall of them are going to get
along.
Say, you have four of them.
Okay, don't be shocked people.
Some people have four or fiveor 10.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Okay, and it's, it can be, it can be perfectly fine
.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, and some have one and that's fine too.
We're happy, the cats happy,but say you've got five of them
and they're not killing eachother.
Okay, so we don't have thatserious problem, but they
certainly aren't always going to.
There's some that don't cuddlewith each other, they don't
interact right, but they allwant to sleep with you.
You had that very clever butvery basic idea Okay, they can
(19:44):
all be on your bed, becausethere might be some hissing or
fussing in the middle of thenight.
Make more beds.
I was like oh yeah, put a catbed on the nightstand.
Put a cat bed like we have aradiators because we have an old
house, so you put some cat bedson the radiator.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Wow, that's like heaven for a cat.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Oh yeah, they love it , you know, so like they can all
interact peacefully becausethere's enough comfy places, but
they're still near you.
You know and like.
For instance, we have a slimycat mix thing, cleo, and she
likes to sleep on my headsometimes, but the rest of the
night she sleeps on this pillowright next to my husband, like
(20:20):
on this pillows on a nightstand.
So it's like her bed Nice.
She likes to move around.
I don't know if she gets toowarm or, and then the other one
sleep at different places, youknow, and then the dogs are
really jealous, but we're noteven going to get into that.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
A lot of the things that I post on social media are
inspired by clients, right?
And I recently had a client,and you know, their cats are in
that adjusting period wherethey're not hurting each other
but they're not friendly, and Ithink it was really, you know,
for a lot of people, especiallyif they have a cat who's used to
sleeping on the bed with themand they adopt a new cat and the
new cat kind of takes over thebed, people feel very guilty,
(21:00):
they feel like the first cat isbeing displaced and sometimes we
can't really control that.
It's like well, the cats haveworked out this arrangement,
this cat is now sleeping on thebed, but you can increase the
chances that they'll both be inthe room with you and perhaps
eventually get to both on thebed with you by adjusting, like
as I mentioned the post, likeout of cat tree near the bed.
We have a storage chest at thefoot of our bed.
(21:21):
We call it the trundle becauseit increased the amount of space
on.
That's a bed level, right.
So I personally am a lightsleeper and you know I love it
when our cats all sleep in thebed with us.
But I also sometimes hate itbecause, like you know, last
night Coriander was weighingdown the bed between my legs.
It was like a bowling ball.
I couldn't move all night right, and I sometimes get restless
(21:44):
legs syndrome.
So I was like, oh, my legsreally want to like move right
now, but they're like pinneddown by a cat and I love her.
So I, you know, I appreciateand love the closeness, so I
didn't move her.
I just didn't get as much sleepas I would like to.
But you know, sometimes if youhave eight cats you either have
a very big bed or you don't havea lot of room to sleep if
(22:05):
they're all in the bed with you.
So sometimes just getting theterritory around the bed can
help with that.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
It was such a simple solution.
You know it didn't requireanything extra.
It was such a simple solution.
I thought like, oh, she's,she's good, so what would?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
you say the most.
I try to come up with solutionsthat are workable.
Yeah, sorry, I try to come upwith solutions that my clients
can do right, because it's justif you give them things that are
too hard or too many things todo, they get overwhelmed, and so
sometimes, luckily, there'ssome really easy things you can
do to make life better for youand your cats.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, Okay then.
Um, so I'm wondering uh, dosome people say, like you know,
oh, my cat must be lonely, I'mgoing to get him another cat.
What if?
I mean, I love the fact ifsomeone wants to get multiple
cats because that's more homesfor cats, right, so that's great
.
Sure, Do cats in general?
You know, I've always felt thatthis is just a personal opinion
(22:57):
Cats would rather have somebodyto like.
You know, these, look at thembe completely, 100% alone.
Now, whether that's another dogor something else, but, like,
if you're here to leave your catall day to have something to
else human, not human, somethingelse living to interact with,
hopefully something that getsalong with.
Um, you know, do do cat,because what's their nature?
(23:18):
Do they want to be solitary?
I mean, I know that my catsgroom each other, hang out
together, you know, they're allreally social with each other,
but not everybody has thatsituation.
What do you?
Uh, how do you know?
Does your cat tell you he'slonely or he's not lonely, or
what are?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
you coming down?
It's a great question and thatit's come up a lot, I think.
Certainly, like during thepandemic and as people return to
work, I think people startedhaving some guilt about leaving
their cats home alone all daywhen they were returning to the
office, even though, you know,before COVID a lot of cats
somehow survived with peopleworking out of the home right.
(23:54):
And then but it was like once westarted working from home, it's
just like well, but can'tpossibly leave the cat home
alone all day, like that's.
You know that's not not goingto work.
But cats are what we considerfaculty and of least social
meaning.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Their socialities are both sorry, say that word one
more time slower, so we facultythe least social, sorry.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
So sociology for them is a spectrum, right, it's,
it's.
It really is dependent onseveral things.
It's dependent on the cat'searly life experiences with
other animals.
It's dependent on to make like.
To an extent, domestication hasallowed cats to be more flexible
(24:33):
about being social, but it'salso highly dependent on
resources.
So when we look at feralcolonies of cats, which are
naturally occurring or, you know, maybe it's unnaturally,
because a lot of them occurbecause of human behavior, but
these are, these areaggregations of cats that form
kind of on their own.
They typically are able to doso because there's a lot of food
(24:57):
, whether it's human provided orprey, there's a lot of shelter,
there is space for them todecide if they want to leave or
not.
So that is how cats naturallyform groups, right is?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
they kind of do it of their own volition, they choose
so so I hang out with the notnecessarily wired to be solitary
.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
No, their closest related ancestors are a solitary
animal and cats are a solitaryhunter, but they do have the
flexibility I guess is what Iwould say.
They're flexible.
The challenge is that in thehome environment we are choosing
their social partners.
(25:41):
We are providing either enoughresources, not enough resources,
abundant resources.
We have control over how muchterritory those cats have.
Do they need to go outside?
Is our house 900 square feet or3000 square feet?
So we're imposing a lot oflimitations on them and often
(26:05):
making poor choices about who webring into the home as a
companion for our cats, how weintroduce them and how we
provide for them, and thatcauses a lot of strife.
Actually, the most commonreason I'm called for help is
that someone has adopted a newcat and that cat and the
resident cat are currentlyfighting.
That is a big issue for a lotof people.
It causes a lot of stress orcat in the light.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah, well, in my experience, when I want to get a
new cat, I'll adopt two kittenstogether.
Nice, yeah.
And then I have my adult catand the two kittens put their
energy into each other insteadof their eyes and are picking on
or trying to interact too muchwith the adult cat, and then
they love each other, the twokittens, but eventually the
adult cat accepts them.
(26:48):
Now that adult cat's prettyaccepting in general, but it was
like the two kittens were youngenough so they weren't causing
any issues with being a fullgrown adult cat.
I can't bring in a full grownadult cat because everyone's
spayed and neutered, of course.
But say, I brought an adultspayed or adult neutered cat,
that would be a problem 99% ofthe time, based on my group
(27:09):
Right.
But in my home if I bring intwo kittens it's like oh dang,
those kittens are so annoying,but there's two of them, so
they're putting the energy intoeach other, not bothering that
one cat by himself, andeventually they all kind of work
.
Now I'm a unique situationbecause I've been doing this a
long time and I know that we'redoing me.
Not everyone can run out andadopt two kittens, but I think
(27:31):
we should.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I 100% agree.
I am not a fan of single kittenadoptions for various reasons.
Certainly if you have an oldercat in the home and you get one
kitten, that one kitten is attheir kind of peak social period
so they're very interested ininteracting with other cats at
that time, and so you're reallyjust setting them up for failure
because they are probably goingto pester that adult cat
(27:53):
constantly to play.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah like to cuddle.
You did me, you did me.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, exactly, and depending on the age of the
older cat, that can beproblematic.
I will say there's one of theproblems we have is that there's
been very little research onwhy cats and homes get along and
what facilitates thoserelationships.
It's just a topic that has notbeen studied and so we really
don't have a lot to go on.
And so when we're talking aboutchoosing a new cat, you know a
(28:21):
lot of it is anecdotal, likewell, this makes sense, like get
two kittens together.
They can play with each other.
They're very similar.
If you have a 15 year old cat,don't get a single kitten,
because they're just mismatchedin energy and life stage.
Yeah, but certainly there'salways exceptions to the rule,
and the one study that has beendone looking at introducing a
new cat into a household thatalready has cats suggests that
(28:43):
about 60 70% of thoseintroductions within a month
will be fine, like those catswill accept each other, and then
there's going to be a handfulthat are going to take longer.
And then there's a smalleramount, probably closer to 10%,
where you could have someproblems, where the cat actually
do not get along.
Maybe you're fighting or justcausing others Right On that
(29:05):
point.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I just read a study, or looked or read about a study
about how dogs that of courseit's really important to
socialize puppies and all thosethings you know that you need to
do with a dog right, same withthe kitten, but some dogs,
through genetics and just youknow what, are born with the
(29:27):
temperament that not going tohandle this.
Handle change, handle, change.
So the whole point is like,when you're looking for a puppy,
look for a puppy that isadaptable and can handle noise
and things and stuff happeningaround them, instead of a puppy
that is like in the same litter,but he's going to be more
worried about change, he's moreneurotic in a sense.
You know so, are there ingeneral, is there?
(29:50):
There must be a range in cats,because I know that for animal
actors, I can't work with a catwho's scared of the environment
or, you know, no matter where hewas born or how he was raised.
Okay, so say he had optimumconditions in his litter.
Okay, yeah so.
But in that litter there'sgoing to be the outgoing bold
ones that are self confident andthey walk with their tail
(30:11):
straight up and they're curiousabout the world.
And there's in the same litter.
There could be one that goes not, I don't want to interact so
much, I'm going to be over hereNow.
That could be a fine house cat.
I'll buy himself someone'swonderful pet for animal acting.
This would not be happy, hewould not be happy, but I have
enough experience to see that.
Do you think it's similar incats that even with optimum
(30:33):
raising okay, you know, say itwas foster cat, it was a foster
cat and you know part of theshelter and the cat at someone's
home.
So they had the kittens, sothey had like socialization and
all the proper things donenutrition, no fighting, blah,
blah, blah.
Some of those, some of thosecats are going to be better
suited being the only cat andsome of those other cats will be
suited to be hey, you know, andsome are suited to be acting
(30:55):
cats.
Not that that's a big call, butyou know.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really interested in the impacts
of early life experience onkittens through adulthood and
some of my research at UC Daviswas was looking at some of these
issues.
And, to be clear, yes, everycat has a personality, right,
they have individual differencesand things that make them
unique, and some of that isbased on genetics.
(31:21):
And there's some evidence that,for example, the trait boldness
is inherited from the fatherand within a litter you can have
kittens know that.
That is interesting.
So so, right, right, so you.
And it's very interestingbecause male cats do not provide
any paternal care for theirkittens under normal
circumstances, so there's noinfluence of care.
(31:43):
It really is their genes.
And, of course, kittens alsohave a socialization window
that's very early and short.
So their socialization windowsconsidered two to seven weeks,
so that's early.
I do not get kittens beforetheir seven weeks of age unless
they're fostering.
So it's it's a really importanttime where they can be exposed
(32:04):
to you, know different, you knownoises, people, you know other
animals etc.
And they'll be more likely tocope with those things as adults
.
But that can't explaineverything right.
Like socialization genetics,there could be things that
happen in the womb.
If the mother's stressed thekittens are in the womb, there
could be an impact on their HPAaxis, which moderate stress
(32:28):
responses.
So there's all kinds ofpossibilities.
And so when people are adoptingkittens, you know, I think we
can, we can use different thingsto help mold them into our
dream kitten, right.
We can socialize them well.
Maybe if you are purchasing akitten from a responsible
breeder, you might be able tomeet the parents right, and you
know there's some influencethere.
(32:48):
We can use training andpositive reinforcement to
further change behavior.
We can provide them with agreat environment to optimize
the chances that they will, youknow, use a scratching post
instead of scratching orfurniture and those sorts of
things.
But I still think there's acertain amount that we can't
control and, yeah, that is kindof the the personality bit that
(33:09):
we just don't have.
We just don't know why.
Certainly, I've seen enoughlitters and interacted with
enough cats to know that, yeah,you can do everything right and
you can still have a cat that'safraid when the doorbell rings,
and you can have a kid thatmaybe didn't get all of the
socialization that you wouldhave liked and they end up being
very bold anyway.
But socialization is veryimportant.
(33:30):
I would never downplay itsimportance.
I think every kitten you knowneeds good socialization to be a
good companion for most catowners.
I've had under socialized catsin my past.
I'd say the three I have noware actually a little bit on the
under socialized side becausethey grew up in a garden and by
the time they were rescued theywere already probably three
months old, which is way pastthe socialization window.
(33:53):
There was a lady who was caringfor them, so I know that they
were exposed to people, but theyprobably didn't expose.
They weren't exposed to beingin the home or anything like
that.
Right, I'm very comfortablewith cats who are not bold like
I like shy cats, I like thattype of thing.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah, you're early beginning there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
But certainly some people, if they had kids or a
very loud, active household,that would not be a good fit for
them.
So I think it is.
It helps to certainly to meet,and it sounds like you spend a
lot of time thinking about who'sthe right kitten for my next
star.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Oh right, because I keep them.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
And I want them to be happy because I could make a
cat stay on set, I could shapeit, but it may not be happy, so
why would I do that?
Yeah, you know, it's likethere's no point, because A you
wouldn't look happy, so thenit's not a good result.
And B, I don't think it's fair.
I just don't want to treatanimals like that, you know so,
like if I had a kid and I meanyou ask my own kids I never put
(34:55):
them into modeling Because it'slike, you know, bad enough.
I have the cats and my you know, my dogs and other animals
weren't, but no, because it'slike you want them to have fun
with it and you know so.
But anyway, but no, I thinkwhat you're saying about the
cats raising the garden can betrue, because my boldest, some
of my boldest, well, all my catsare rescues, you know, from
from a shelter or, or myneighbor or not, but a
(35:19):
neighboring farm.
Okay, so those cats are totallyraised outside.
But also, because they wereraised outside, they were fed,
take care of their nice people,but they were very brave because
they've they've been in theworld their entire lives, you
know.
But I do get them at aboutseven weeks, Um, you know.
So I see what you're sayingthere, that that, that
(35:40):
socialization.
Well, this is a good segue toyour book.
Let's talk about your upcomingbook, because that making a nice
environment for your cats youplay with your cat sounds really
fun and it's enjoyable.
I know I enjoy throwing themouse because that side Cleo
(36:01):
retrieves, so we spent a lot oftime when I'm watching you throw
in the mouse.
Um, you know, uh and oh.
Let's also talk about laserpointers too, because I know
cats enjoy them.
But I've read, and I believe it, that it's very frustrating for
cats to play with them.
Is that right?
Because there's no physicalgrabbing it and that's just like
anxiety causing maybe.
(36:22):
So let's talk about your bookand maybe that too.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Okay, no, that sounds good, um, yeah.
So my book play with your catcomes out on March 5th this year
, 2024, on Tarture Paragate andit really was inspired by, I
think, working with so manyclients who told me that their
cats didn't play.
And with any cases it wasbecause they were saying that,
(36:46):
because I was recommending playas part of their baby
modification plan, because Iwould recognize that their cat
was either bored or frustratedor stressed.
And to me, um, play is anobvious antidote to a lot of
those psychological ills.
For the same reasons that, likeexercise, is beneficial to us
in that it releases goodendorphins and can take our mind
(37:07):
off our troubles, but alsobecause it is for cats,
especially indoor cats, anexpression of predatory behavior
.
Their play is really the sameas predatory behavior.
It's motivated by the samethings like the uh, the shape
and size of the toy and howhungry they are, and it is kind
of fits into the animal welfaremodels which really put emphasis
(37:29):
on allowing animals to expressnatural behaviors.
So for cats, um, play isallowing them to express
predatory behaviors.
So clients would be like, ohyeah, he doesn't play.
Oh, he's, you know, he's five,he doesn't play, as if somehow,
you know, if you're over fourand you're a cat, you just stop.
You lose all interest in life,um, so that was really.
I just kept you know.
So what would happen is if Iwas doing a home visit and
(37:52):
people be like, oh, my catdoesn't play, I'd be like, let's
step aside, let me get a toyand let me show you.
And then they would always belike, oh my God, like we've
never seen him do this, becauseI would be able to get the cap
to play, um, partly because Iwas, I knew what I was doing, um
, and but also because they justhadn't tried in a really long
time.
So so it was really like againand again seeing people be like
(38:14):
Whoa, you know, fluffy likes toplay.
So it was cool and that, tappinginto that connection that I was
able to create and following upwith them later, they're like
oh yeah, he really loves playing, like, thank you so much for
you know, showing us that youknow he really does like to play
.
That I thought, okay, this is atopic that I'm passionate about
.
I ended up writing a scientificpaper with my friend, julie
(38:36):
Hecht, about play.
So we reviewed all thescientific literature that we
could find about cat play andsynthesized this into a
scientific review paper, and soI already had the theoretical
stuff kind of in the back of mymind.
And then I had the applied partof working with clients and
seeing the problems they hadwith play, the reasons that they
didn't play, that I thought,okay, this could be a cool book,
(38:58):
and yeah.
So that's kind of how that ideawas born, okay, and now it's
coming out soon.
I mean it's funny because Ifinished writing the book almost
a year and a half ago, so thewhole publishing thing is just a
very slow machine.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Oh yeah, no, I have a book out too.
It took a year, I think, yeahyeah, it takes a long time.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
So it's been, you know, for me.
I'm like, oh my God.
Well, this book just come outalready, but now it's almost a
year, so it's I think it's sevenweeks from today, the date of
this recording, that that itwill be on the shelf.
So that's very exciting, and Iswear when people they will.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
it's going to be a great book.
Where can they find?
We'll have a.
We'll have a link to yourpreorder for now, but in general
, because this podcast will liveforever, so say the book's out,
where will they find it?
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, so it's on the Penguin Random House website and
it will hopefully be in lots ofbookstores and libraries near
you.
You can always go to one of mywebsites and I will have links
to.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
That's great.
You got Penguin Random Housebecause my oddly enough, my book
was published to them and theywere great to work with as far
as publicizing it.
And you know, I mean I'm surethis will lead to wonderful
things for you because you'vegot a major well, I think the
biggest one a major publisher.
Very exciting, that's very cool, besides just sorry, book nerd
(40:14):
thing.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
But no, no, yeah, no, it's great, and I just found
out today it's going to come outin Dutch in the Netherlands and
it's going to come out in Italy, so so it'll just be nice to
kind of see how it goes.
But the so the point of thebook is it's like half science
about why cats play, why animalsplay.
You know what we know about cathealth and play and why.
(40:36):
You know hunting behavior andhow that ties into how your cat
plays.
And then the other half isreally practical, like here's
how to pick toys for your catand here's when you should play
with your cat, and here's theyou know other supplies you
might want to use, likecardboard boxes and paper bags
Right, everyone knows that.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
And and some things beyond that.
And then it's like you knowwhat to do if you have multiple
cats, or what if your cat has adisability.
How can you modify the play toaccommodate?
I mean it's out of that so yeah, so I'm really trying to you,
can't?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
can't wait to see that.
You know that's, that'sfantastic.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
It's illustrated by Lily Chin.
I don't know if you're familiarwith her work, but she's at
doggiedrawingsnet and she's donea lot of amazing animal
illustrations.
She's a good friend of mine, soit's it's got really cute
illustrations.
So my goal is that it's areally fun book, but it also is
informative, helps people have abetter relationship with their
cat and hopefully gets a lotmore cats playing.
(41:31):
And you know, in this case I'mreally focused on the
interactive play, which is, youknow human holding a stick with
a you know string and somethingon the end and moving it in a
way that really inspires theircats predatory behavior.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Oh yeah, we wouldn't get cat modeling.
We couldn't get them to modelif they weren't playful.
You know, for like what I do,because I can't get the focus on
the camera.
Look at the camera.
Unless there's, they don't careabout the camera.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Get them feather around yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
They're watching.
They're watching either thefeather or the toy, you know,
depending on their age and stuff, or they're to the level of
shaped behavior that they'rewatching the bit of turkey that
I'm holding.
That is going to be yummy.
So it just kind of depends onon where we are with their
shaping, but totally becauseit's got to be fun.
Well, that's pretty exciting,okay.
Well then, the one of the otherthings I wanted to ask you out
(42:18):
before we move on to, kind of,the closing section.
I want to ask you about the.
What would be the when peoplecome to you with a problem about
their cats, like what is the?
The main question, the mainthing, the main reason they've
come to you over all the otherreasons?
I'm going to guess one, but Iwant you to say what's causing
people the most problem?
(42:39):
And it's probably not causingthe cat a problem at all.
It's probably a lot of humanstuff.
I mean, if you fixed it for thecat and what I'm trying to say
cats just being a cat, that'swhat I'm trying to say.
Sure, yeah, I mean, what wouldbe the number one problem that
people are faced with?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, so the number one reason people call for help
is what I call intracataggression, right, so aggression
between cats in the home, yeah,number two is litter box
avoidance.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
That's the one that's what I thought would be number
one.
I have to write, but wouldn'tlitter box avoidance also be
from not doing the resourcesproperly?
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Yeah, so everything, yeah so many of the issues are
really about the environment.
So, whether it's the level offor the number of resources we
provide, do we provide enoughlitter boxes right, provide
enough scratching posts?
Do we clean the litter box?
Do the cats have things to keepthem busy during the day so
(43:33):
that they're not up all night orgetting bored and frustrated
and destructive?
So there's so many kind of basicthings that don't necessarily
have to do with the problemitself, but it's just about
providing the things that ourcats need, and there's a model
that I really like called thefive pillars of a healthy feline
environment that thisorganization called iCatCare and
(43:56):
the American Association offeline practitioners
collaborated on, and it reallyis about providing things like
safe spaces for our cats andhaving multiple and separated
resources for our cats, givingthem outlets for predatory
behavior, giving themappropriate social interactions,
whether that's with humans orother animals.
(44:16):
And also a big one that peopledon't think about is respecting
their sense of smell, becausethey have a very sensitive
factory scent and they also usescent a lot for their everyday
life, right Like communicatingand marking their territory.
So really just getting peopleunderstanding why their cat does
the thing that is botheringthem Sometimes it's sufficient
(44:39):
to address the problem right,just changing how the person
feels about the problem andgiving them more empathy for
their cat, giving them more ofan understanding of what's
natural for cats, and also thecats are not humans or dogs.
So that is like a big part ofwhat I'm doing, you know, and
then there's certainly otherthings that involve, you know.
A lot of it is changing withhumans behavior, but also we're
(45:01):
doing behavior modification withthe cats.
So I do have a lot of myclients do training with their
cats using the thought of thereinforcement method.
So sometimes that's somethingfunctional, like training their
cat to go in a carrier on theirown so that they don't have to
chase their cat around when theyneed to go to the vet.
It could be training a cat,you're trying to put him in the
crate.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, a lot of stress.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
No, I get it, yeah it could be training their cat to
sit on a mat instead of chasingthe other cat in the home.
So we're doing a lot of likerelaxation exercises, a lot of
that stuff that's derivedprobably from some of the horse
and dog literature I'm surewe're using increasingly the
cats.
So it is, you know, big picture, what's the problem?
The problem is that they don'tunderstand cats.
(45:42):
That gets down to you, okay,your cats, like you're gonna
call this using waterbox.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Let's just call the podcast that.
Well, just you know.
Here's the big problem theydon't understand cats the way
that's.
That's nails it right there.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Well, this has been really cool.
I didn't want to speak to thelaser pointer in question.
Oh yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah, I'll give a quickanswer.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
We can edit this in, so that's earlier, but no
problem so okay, cool.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
So you asked about laser pointers and you know
laser pointers.
I'm kind of I guess I'm not asrabidly against them as a lot of
people are Certainly in dogs.
There's been a lot ofdocumentation of compulsive
behaviors that start up withlaser pointers With cats.
I think they should not be themain tool in your toolbox if for
(46:29):
play, so you can use itsparingly as long as your cat
doesn't seem to have any type oflight obsession that you know
those behaviors that we see indogs, like air snapping or kind
of repeated looking for thelight after it goes away.
And I'd say my approach is ifyou are going to use the laser
pointer, treat it like you wouldor treat it like it's a real
physical object.
(46:49):
So have it follow the laws ofphysics.
Don't make it go halfway up thewall and then just disappear.
Have it go under a doorway soit kind of disappears naturally,
like prey with like a mask wentunder the door.
Okay, and then I recommendfollowing that with a real toy.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
A treat for your cat.
So there's kind of you'recompleting the entire hunting
cycle, of you know stocking,that's kind of what I was trying
to get to.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Yeah, yeah, so it's teasing the poor thing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
I think people, people gravitate toward it
because they don't have to getoff the couch and that's like a
poor amazing cat toy.
Yeah, so it's not my favorite,but I'm not.
I'm not throwing it out of thetoolbox, it's just at the bottom
of the toolbox and it's not mygo to for sure.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Okay, well, now the time that what we call this part
of the podcast is called treattime and questions, and so if
you were here, I just droppedthem all over my keyboard.
I have these cornmeal blueberrymuffins and we're gonna snarf
from Don one after we're donebecause my crew have to feed my
crew.
But it just kind of marks atreat time, kind of marks the
(47:59):
part of the podcast where we askyou the five questions.
Now these five questions comefrom.
I copied the idea from WarwickSchiller, who has a wonderful
podcast about horses, and hecopied this concept from Tim
Ferriss book tribe of mentors,and so I sent you 20 questions
and out of them you picked fiveand we're going to ask those
(48:21):
questions.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Okay, Okay, hopefully I don't regret my choices.
It was not a test.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
It's not a test, so it's okay, all right.
First question what is the mostvaluable thing that you've put
your time into that has changedthe course of your life?
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Yeah, I would say the day I walked into that animal
shelter to volunteer, you knowit was very much about helping
the community and helping thecommunity animals and it turned
into a career path.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, but that sounds pretty remarkable.
I believe that.
Okay, what accomplishment areyou most proud of, and why?
Speaker 1 (49:00):
I mean, right now it'd be easy to save my book,
but I think it was getting a PhD.
I started grad school when Iwas 38, 39 years old, so I was
very much like I mentionedbefore.
I dropped out of college, right, I didn't really say what
happened later, but I went backto college in 2008 to finish my
(49:21):
bachelor's degree and decidedthat I wanted to pursue research
and a PhD, and it took sevenyears.
It was a lot of work, it wasreally fun and it was very mind
expanding and really really justa very positive experience for
me.
I mean, academia is hard.
(49:41):
There certainly were tears,there were problems, but overall
it was just very mentallystimulating and a great learning
experience.
I definitely am veryappreciative that I went through
that time and that I workedwith a mentor who was really
supportive Dr Lucia Jacobs, andI'm yeah, so I'd say I'm very
(50:02):
proud of getting that PhD.
It was a lot of work, it wasfun.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
For sure, and then look at how we all benefit from
you doing that and then all theother stuff you did and how the
cats are benefiting.
So good on you.
That was a good thing.
Okay, well, I always liked thisone.
What is the worst advice givenin your profession or the bad
idea that you hear in your fieldof expertise?
Speaker 1 (50:25):
I think the thing that I'm well it ties back into
the respect thing right.
It's really the idea that weshould change behavior using
aversive negative experiences.
So in the cat world, what'sbeen kind of decided is a not so
(50:46):
bad behavior change technique.
Is the spray model right, likeevery cat owner's got a spray
bottle that they point at theircat when their cat's doing
something they don't like andit's, you know, it's innocuous,
right?
The water is not going to likecause your cat to bleed or no,
but does it make?
Speaker 2 (51:06):
sense to them?
Does it make sense?
Speaker 1 (51:08):
No, and you know we're using a.
I personally use spray bottlesin my house to like clean things
and people use them to waterplants.
Why are we also using it topunish cats?
So I think it really is gettingback to like people don't
understand behavior.
They don't understand behaviorchange, and certainly changing
(51:28):
behavior in humans is muchharder than it is in animals.
I would much rather train thecat than a human in the hands
down.
So for me, I think the badadvice that goes around is
really around that you know, oh,a little spray of water is
going to fix this, to eat yourproblem.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
So yeah, no, he just won't do it when you're there.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Yeah, I think exactly .
Yeah, there's yeah.
They'll either stop caring orthey'll just do it as soon as
you turn around.
So I think it is really justtrying to help people understand
why those of us who rely onpositive reinforcement methods
for behavior change have landedon that philosophy and how it's
based in science and it's basedin animal welfare science.
(52:11):
So it's not necessarily justabout behavior change, but it's
about changing behavior in waysthat are ethical and kind and
effective.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
And I mean empathy, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Perfect, Okay.
What inspires and motivates youto do what you do?
What is your true?
Excuse me, what inspires andmotivates you to do what you do
and what is your true purpose inthe world?
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not .
I'm not really a spiritualperson and you know, I guess I
could consider myself a bit oflike.
I'm a very positive person, butI also go through periods where
I think there there isn'treally like, there doesn't have
to be a purpose in our life somuch as like we try to like get
through it.
(52:59):
But yeah on a good day.
I mean, I think you know mywhat gives my life purpose is
helping cats be happy andhelping cat owners have a better
relationship with their cat sothat their cats are happier.
So yeah, it really is abouttrying to really help the cat
(53:21):
human bond survive and thrive.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Well, that sounds sounds great to me.
Sounds sounds like a good thing.
Okay, and then the lastquestion of the question part is
what have you become better atsaying no to?
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Oh, I say no a lot more than I used to.
I see fewer clients than Icould Like.
I say no to reviewing a lot ofscientific papers.
So when you're in academia youget asked to.
You know the peer reviewprocess is other scientists
review scientific publications.
You don't get paid for thatwork and so I've just become a
(54:00):
lot pickier about what papersare of you.
So a lot of it is kind of thislike busy work, that kind of
sneaks into your life, and Iadopted the you know mindset of
if I say yes to this, what am Igoing to have to say no to?
So it has okay, good, so I dotry to say no to things that
don't excite me, that don't payme.
(54:23):
I mean I do some free thingsbut I say yeah, I get it less of
them.
So it is really about.
And the other thing is just.
For example, couple years ago Idecided I was going to stop
working on weekends.
I used to see clients on theweekend and I just was, like I
need two days off, like to justnot work and not think about
work, and I just want to read anovel and watch TV and go for a
(54:44):
walk and bake cookies and hangout with my cats.
And that used to be very hardfor me.
I used to be definitely.
Like you know, my idea of avacation is to, like you know,
stay at home and like catch upon all the like you know busy
work and tech stuff.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
that same thing, yeah no same, your self employed,
there's not ever a vacation.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
There really isn't.
So I've really worked hard totry to take more time off, and
that means saying no sometimesand limiting what I can do.
But I do feel like I do better,like I'm bringing a better me
to the clients that I do see inthe work that I do take on.
Speaker 2 (55:20):
No, healthy boundaries are good and we are
extremely grateful that you saidyes to this, because it's been
really wonderful.
You know, speaking with youtoday, I think I, you know, I'm
somewhat knowledgeable aboutcats, right, but I know that
just in the short time I'velearned some things like how the
father's temperament can bepassed on or it's important you
(55:42):
know, genetically from thefather.
That's I'm going to look intothat.
That's fascinating to me.
Yeah, because my cats are allstraight.
I never know the father.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Yeah, I mean most of us don't right.
Speaker 2 (55:51):
I mean it's just yeah that's so interesting, among
other, among other great stuffthat you shared with us today.
This has been super cool.
I feel like we don't haveenough time.
I wish we had more time becausethere's like I'd love to do
this again after your book comesout.
You will give it some time, butthere's more stuff that I'm
sure people want to know about.
You know what kind of litterbox is best you know, but also
(56:13):
more about about your life andhow your cats, how you.
I wish I had time to ask youhow you found each individual
cat, like their individual storyand all that kind of stuff.
But good on you.
And how exciting about the book.
We will make sure to linkeverything up.
I'm going to give you a fewminutes here to tell us how we
find you.
Now we'll have all this stufflisted in the show notes.
(56:34):
But what's if somebody wants tohire you to talk to you about
the their cat?
You know where do they go.
How do we find you?
Speaker 1 (56:41):
Okay, yes, well, first of all, thank you so much
for having me.
It's been really great talkingto you.
It's been a really lovelyconversation, so I appreciate
that If people are interested infinding me, probably the
easiest way is to go to Michaeldelgadocom and from there you
can get to my businessconsulting website, which is
felinemindscom, and my blog,which is what your cat, or
(57:03):
opscom.
I have too many websites.
That's probably something Ishould have cut back on, but I
didn't.
But yeah, so that I'm on theinternet, I'm on the gram.
Speaker 2 (57:13):
Oh yeah, you're on Instagram.
You post a lot I mean, that'swhere I found you and there's
always something useful.
Like every, you know you mustdo that.
You're really good at itbecause you've got this great
information all the time.
I'm always learning when I'm onyour Instagram account.
So, besides the other places,so that's pretty cool.
That's it, thank you.
Well, thank you so much,michael.
This has been a delight.
(57:33):
I just want to go pet my cats.
Speaker 1 (57:35):
I don't know what it is, but I hope everyone else is
feeling the same way.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
Okay.
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer, and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
This is Barbara O'Brien andyou're listening to the
Empathetic Trainer podcast.
Today's guest is Michael MurielDelgado.
(00:35):
She's a certified appliedanimal behaviorist and certified
cat behavior consultant.
She co-founded a cat consultingbusiness called Feline Mines
and her new book, play With yourCat, is available March 5, 2024
.
She also has a blog called whatyour Cat Wants, and she lives
with three rescue cats namedCoriander, ruby and Professor
(00:57):
Scribbles.
So we're pretty excited to haveyou here, michael, and I love
the names of your cats.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I think we should start out with Professor
Scribbles, because we need toknow how did you get his name.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Well, actually Professor Scribbles is a she, so
all of my cats are sisters andyou know it's kind of funny.
I had a client, a cat behaviorclient, who had a cat named
Scribble and I just loved thename.
And after I met with thatclient I talked to my boyfriend
and I was like what do you thinkabout the cat named Scribble?
And he's like I love it.
And so we just always had it inthe back of our head.
(01:34):
We had two cats at the time andwe had it in the back of our
head that when we had a futurecat there would be a cat named
Scribble or some variation ofScribble.
And we kind of settled on.
I like cats to have a job.
So my cat, coriander she'sactually a Supreme Court justice
, so her full name is justicecoriander moonbeam and Ruby is a
(01:56):
train conductor, so that's herjob.
And then Scribbles I think partof it was also because I got a
PhD but did not get a job as aprofessor.
So I thought someone in thehouse should be a professor.
So Scribbles got the job ofbeing the professor in the house
A little vicarious.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
That's how they got their jobs.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, exactly, it was like my failed career turned
into a job for her, but her PhDis in Scribbling so it's not
very useful.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, for a cat, though, it's pretty impressive,
I think, naming cats.
I mean, just to get on thesubject of naming cats, I think
it's really important and youmay agree, that we give them
names that we have affection for.
So, like with all my cats overthe years and I have a, I like
we have cats and so they've hadthe girls have had glamour names
(02:46):
, like Evelyn and Marilyn, and,you know, Louisa, beautiful
1930s, 40s actresses, you know,and for some reason, the boy
cats, especially years ago, andmy, my children were young.
They're a lot of the house, butwhatever they were studying in
history, that's what the catswere named, you know.
So we had a Churchill and wehad a Roosevelt and we had, you
know, some, and when John Adamswas out, that was popular, we
(03:08):
had, you know, some cats namedfor that.
Eliza, you know that's fun,yeah, things like that.
So, but having things you'dlike that you feel good, saying
that, you feel good about us,they're saying dumb cat, you
know, or something.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, yeah, when I used to work in an animal
shelter, I do remember, so partof my job was I worked in a
private shelter and every day wewould go to the public shelter,
which was San Francisco AnimalCare and Control, and pull cats
from that shelter to be put upfor adoption.
And I do.
I'll never forget this one cat.
Her name was PETA, which Ibelieve was short for pain in
(03:40):
the ass, and yeah.
I do a dog name that was it kindof broke my heart a little bit,
like you know.
I just I do.
I agree with you that you knowthese are names, their terms of
endearment, and of course mostof us have like 1000 nicknames
for our cats that we use anyway.
But I feel like you should giveyour cats a you know acute name
or a cool name, something thatthat respects them and doesn't
(04:04):
cause derision, or even you knowproblems for like your
veterinarian to call their namein the lobby right when you're
at the clinic.
So I didn't even thought ofthat.
I do find it funny, though,when, when people give their
cats very human names, like kindof cats named well, my friend,
her cat's name is Josh, and Ifind that to be a very funny
name.
But given that you mentionedthat you've given your cats some
(04:26):
some names after, after people,I tend to lean towards the more
like I don't know cutesy, Iguess.
Like are Professor Scribbles,right, it's kind of silly.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
But no, I think that's wonderful because, like
we have George, what his name is, king George, you know so good.
Yeah, so they're always.
They're always like that.
But I think we're on the samepath, same mindset, that they
should have some, some goodfeeling when we say the name.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I mean, I think the same is true when we talk about
animals in general.
Right, Like words matter thiswas again something that came up
all the time in the animalshelter is we were writing plans
for specific animals whether itwas veterinary and writing
notes or us writing behaviornotes about the cat that we
(05:16):
didn't use terms like mean orjerk when we were talking about
the animals, even if they weremaybe not what we would consider
friendly, right.
So it was always reallyimportant, rather than using
labels to describe the behaviorsthat we're observing so this
cat is hiding, this cat may biteor scratch if you approach too
(05:39):
quickly instead of saying thiscat is a jerk because those
labels do color how we work withthat animal or how we perceive
them, or even you know how weperceive their behavior.
When I work with clients, it issomething that I really have to
get them to describe theproblem in terms that are really
about the behavior and nottheir interpretation of the
(06:01):
behavior or their emotionalresponse to the behavior,
because it really does make itmore difficult to, I think,
understand the pet's perspectiveif you're just seeing them as a
jerk or as jealous or trying toget with that Right.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
No, in the horse world there is a shift in the
horse world, and I think the dogworld too, to do the same sort
of things, because they'd belike, oh, this horse doesn't
respect me or he's stubborn, orhe's bad, or he's being a jerk,
and that colors, like you said,our perception, and then from
what I've learned from someother guests we've had that are
work with energies or talk aboutenergies it gives their.
(06:37):
Your energy is in your words.
Like you said, words havemeaning and that meaning is our
energy, like when we say thewords, how we feel about it, and
the animals can feel that right.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yes, yeah, and I don't know why humans need
respect so much from everyonethat we deal with.
I don't need my cats to respectme.
I need my cats to be happy.
It's more about the horse thing.
but yeah, for sure, but I hearit all, oh no, I hear it all the
time from cat owners too.
Yes, dog owners, cat owners.
There is really this idea thatif we're in charge, if we're the
(07:09):
parent or the boss, thatsomehow our pets should respect
us, and I find that very strange.
That's not the mindset I haveabout animals and or even human
relationships, I guess.
Oh right, yeah.
Yeah, that's not my go to, buthumans do tend to be a little
obsessed with hierarchies andwho's in charge.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Oh, that's true.
That's true, yes, well, therewe go.
We've got the cat naming thingdone.
Give your cat a good name Fairenough, all right.
Please, okay.
Well, michael, I'm reallycurious.
How did did you know you weregoing to grow up and be a cat
(07:52):
lady in this sense, where youwere able to help other cat
people?
I mean, what was your path?
Because I knew I was going tolive on a farm and have animals.
I just didn't know I was goingto be an animal actor, trainer
and a photographer.
I just knew it was going to besomething with animals.
I just got real lucky.
How did it?
How did it start for you?
How did you?
What was the beginning of allthis?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, I mean I wish I could say that I was one of
those people that had a clearpath from childhood, but I
definitely did not.
I have always loved cats andhad cats, or family members have
had cats throughout my life,but definitely was not one of
those people who thought, oh,I'm going to be a veterinarian
or I'm going to work in a zoo oranything like that.
I mean I was pretty aimless asa kid and then I got into punk
(08:35):
rock and actually, you know,like I said, had cats, but they
were my companions and not mycareer.
And I actually dropped out ofcollege when I was 21 because I
wanted to move to California andbe in a punk band, and that's
basically what I did.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Were you from originally, then if you moved to
California yeah, I grew up inMaine oh, that is, you moved
like as far as you couldpossibly go one ocean to another
?
Yes, and you're pretty young,pretty young, at this point.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I was young yeah, I was 21.
So I mean, I moved out of mymom's house when I was 17.
So I was kind of an early youknow.
This was back when you couldactually afford to leave your
parents home, when you wereyoung and I was pretty
independent kid.
So I yeah I California waswhere I wanted to be.
I wanted to live in the BayArea.
There was a really thrivingpunk scene and a lot of
(09:26):
political activism that I wantedto be a part of.
So I moved to California.
I started working at a naturalfoods cooperative, which was a
non hierarchical.
Non hierarchical work structure.
There were no managers, it wasall democratically run and that
was definitely a reallyformative place to work for a
long period of time.
And during that time I was alsovolunteering in some
(09:49):
collectively run punk spaces andstarted a band.
And it wasn't until one of mycats passed away that that was
kind of the where my life headedin a different direction.
And that was because I stillhad another cat, so that my cat
who passed away his name wasKiddoms, and I still had a cat
named Jesus.
He was a great little cat.
But when Kiddoms passed away, afriend of mine had recently
(10:13):
started volunteering at thelocal animal shelter and my
friend Casey, and he was likeyou know, I think it would
really help you get through yourgrief to volunteer at the
shelter.
So he wanted me to hang out atthe shelter with him because he
was having fun and I was like,yeah, that sounds great.
So I started volunteering at theanimal shelter this was the San
(10:33):
Francisco SPCA and pretty muchas soon as I got there I noticed
that they had this special wardof cats that were off limits to
most volunteers and it wastheir behavior ward and these
were cats who needed special,basically, support to cope with
the stress of being in a shelter.
They needed specially trainedvolunteers and I was like, oh, I
(10:54):
want to work with those cats,how do I get to do that?
And so I started volunteeringin their behavior program, and
so this was pretty amazing atthe time because this was in
2000.
So we're talking almost 24years ago.
Yeah, that the shelter had awhole department devoted to cat
behavior, yeah, we stopped.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
We stopped you right there because most shelters you
know, I mean a lot of shelters,especially back then okay, out
of necessity, if a cat wasdifficult, that was the end of
the cat.
Sure, I mean, you know it hadto be at that time.
I think it's getting better but, yeah, right, so that was a way
ahead of its time where theywere to actually try to help
(11:35):
these cats so they could getadopted.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, and even just having staff on hand to do the
work to help these cats and alsohelp cat owners.
So I began volunteering withthis program and basically I
volunteered there so much thatwhen one of the staff in the
behavior department was going onmaturity leave, they were like,
oh, do you want a job?
And I was like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So yeah, that was kind of that was that was it.
I started working in their catbehavior program and learning a
lot about cats, learning a lotabout behavior, helping a lot of
cat owners.
So we would do matchmaking inthe shelter.
So someone came in and theywere looking for help making a
cat.
We would help them.
But we also had a behaviorhotline so anybody in the world
(12:22):
could call this free hotline ifthey had behavior questions.
Wow, so I got a lot of my mytraining on that hotline and we
would get easily over 100 callsa month oh sure, yeah, from you.
Know people all over the worldwith behavior problems, ranging
from my cats peeing on my bed tomy cats biting my husband, to
(12:43):
we're having a baby and our catsfreaking out.
You know all kinds of the wholegamut of behavior things.
And so I got a lot of trainingon the job and basically, when
my coworkers the maturity leavewas over, they decided to keep
me.
So I ended up working at theshelter for almost eight years.
Okay, when I left, the personwho went on maternity leave was
(13:07):
Dilara Perry.
She is now my business partnerat Feline Mines, so we both left
the shelter around the sametime to start our business and
the point of that was really tokind of be able to devote more
time to people who had behaviorproblems.
So, operating a hotline, youdon't have a lot of time to give
people.
It was really like here's somequick tips and here's some
handouts and you know that'shelpful.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, so you're going to be able to devote more to
helping.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
So we started doing, you know, home visits and
spending more time with ourclients, giving them, you know,
much more personalized behaviormodification plans so that they
could solve behavior problemsand hopefully keep cats in the
home, because that's really thewhole point of why we do
behavior Well.
It's not just to keep kept athome.
It's a big part of it,especially if you come from a
shelter background is just like.
We got to keep these cats inthe home.
(13:52):
We don't want them to end up inthe shelter, but a lot of it is
preserving the human animalbond.
And then a huge part of it isalso making sure that cats have
good welfare, because I think alot of companion animals may be
loved, they may have basic care,but they don't have great
welfare.
Their lives are missing a lotof the things that they need,
and so this is also anopportunity to educate cat
(14:13):
owners about how to make theircats happy, or how to give them
the things that they need to beboth a good companion animal
with good behavior, but alsomake sure they're a happy
companion animal.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Oh, absolutely, and what a wonderful thing then.
Do you feel that this is?
So you go back a little bit intime to as well?
Because I remember back it waslike, you know, throw people
through their cats outside, sure, and that's fine.
If you have an outside, youknow safety, whatever.
I mean that can be done safelyif you have this set up and
(14:44):
whatever.
But it was like, you know,nighttime, throw the cat out now
where I live, you know coyoteswould eat them, yeah, and where
I live too, I mean I wouldn't bevery smart.
But do you think it's changedwhat I'm trying to say?
I guess my question is do youthink that people are becoming
more aware of how a cat mightfeel like caring, caring more
about how to make things nicefor their cats?
(15:05):
Do you think people are moreaware?
I know they are more aware withhorses.
That's a growing trend.
I know they're certainlygetting more aware with dogs.
That's been a growing trend.
So I think it's getting betterfor animals.
But, boy, there's still a lotfor all of us to learn with
right.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yes, absolutely no.
I do think that there have beenimprovements.
Certainly, cats, social mediareally changed the public
profile of cats.
Right Now, you know, cat videosbecame the thing for good and
bad.
Sometimes these videos are nota positive thing for cats, but
certainly no.
You can tell the stress, yeah,yeah.
But I think it did elevate catsas a companion animal and I do
(15:44):
think that when I don't like tosound like an old person or
anything, but I do think theyounger generations are more
thoughtful in their petparenting and more open to maybe
less of that we were talkingabout early, like the need for
respect and that kind ofhierarchical approach and maybe
more compassionate.
(16:05):
And you know, I think there'sthere's probably different
reasons for that, but I do thinkthat there's there's movement
in the right direction.
We still have a lot ofchallenges and certainly, you
know, cats populate very quickly.
We still have an overpopulationissue.
We still have a lot of issueswith, you know, feral cats and
the debate over birds and catsbeing outside, but I think that
(16:30):
there is more interest.
Certainly, my business hasincreased.
There's a lot more people doingbehavior consulting.
When I started, if I toldpeople what I did for a living,
they were very confused and itwas probably I don't remember
what when the show my Cat fromHell came out.
That was a TV show, that was youknow Jackson Galaxy show about
(16:53):
behavior consulting and thensuddenly people are like oh,
this is a thing, like I can hiresomeone to help me with my cat.
So that's actually in a lot ofways really beneficial to the
field, because it did increasedemand for the service.
No, you're right.
Yeah, so I think there's,there's.
I think people don't feel asweird about hiring someone to
help them with their cat asmaybe they did when I started,
(17:15):
at least seem very embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeah, no, now I get it when I explained that I
trained cats.
Well, and we're not eventraining cats you know for to be
on set to be an electric.
We're shaping behaviors andrewarding behaviors and being
happy about it, because I can'tuse them if they're not happy.
Yeah, so so it's like I'vechosen cats that really enjoy
this work, you know, and I keepthem their whole lives because,
gosh, our last cat, what thelast cat we had to put down, was
(17:42):
19 because, you know, finally,finally, after everything, or
kidneys, evelyn slept on my headevery night and that was only
been a couple months, so youunderstand that.
But I mean I keep them theirwhole lives and so I choose them
really carefully.
But so when I say to people Itrain cats, they're like that's
not possible.
Oh, hey, you know, having anice cat helps, but you can.
(18:03):
You can help encouragebehaviors that you're looking
for and I want to.
I went to your website in yourblog and I want everyone that
the links will be in the shownotes and everything like that.
Michael has a wonderful blogand Michael's very big on
Instagram, which is where Ifound you.
So that was fun, nice,excellent.
(18:28):
And I went to one of your mostrecent ones you talk about with
your multiple cats.
Okay, is here guilty multiplecat household?
Here Sometimes you're openingyourself up for behavior
problems because cats a resourcethey have, like they want to
get, they can guard resources orwant to be at the stairs
staring at the one at the bottomof the stairs and what the
(18:49):
bottom stairs can't get up tothe litter box or whatever.
So you need to have all thoseenough litter boxes, enough
places to eat, enough places.
But I had not thought of thisand I've been doing this a while
and I was really surprised andhappy to see this.
You're one of your recent blogsor post talks about having
enough spaces in your bedroomfor the cats to sleep
comfortably on the same roombecause, as a rule, they want to
(19:11):
be with you but as a rule, notall of them are going to get
along.
Say, you have four of them.
Okay, don't be shocked people.
Some people have four or fiveor 10.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Okay, and it's, it can be, it can be perfectly fine
.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, and some have one and that's fine too.
We're happy, the cats happy,but say you've got five of them
and they're not killing eachother.
Okay, so we don't have thatserious problem, but they
certainly aren't always going to.
There's some that don't cuddlewith each other, they don't
interact right, but they allwant to sleep with you.
You had that very clever butvery basic idea Okay, they can
(19:44):
all be on your bed, becausethere might be some hissing or
fussing in the middle of thenight.
Make more beds.
I was like oh yeah, put a catbed on the nightstand.
Put a cat bed like we have aradiators because we have an old
house, so you put some cat bedson the radiator.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Wow, that's like heaven for a cat.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Oh yeah, they love it , you know, so like they can all
interact peacefully becausethere's enough comfy places, but
they're still near you.
You know and like.
For instance, we have a slimycat mix thing, cleo, and she
likes to sleep on my headsometimes, but the rest of the
night she sleeps on this pillowright next to my husband, like
(20:20):
on this pillows on a nightstand.
So it's like her bed Nice.
She likes to move around.
I don't know if she gets toowarm or, and then the other one
sleep at different places, youknow, and then the dogs are
really jealous, but we're noteven going to get into that.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
A lot of the things that I post on social media are
inspired by clients, right?
And I recently had a client,and you know, their cats are in
that adjusting period wherethey're not hurting each other
but they're not friendly, and Ithink it was really, you know,
for a lot of people, especiallyif they have a cat who's used to
sleeping on the bed with themand they adopt a new cat and the
new cat kind of takes over thebed, people feel very guilty,
(21:00):
they feel like the first cat isbeing displaced and sometimes we
can't really control that.
It's like well, the cats haveworked out this arrangement,
this cat is now sleeping on thebed, but you can increase the
chances that they'll both be inthe room with you and perhaps
eventually get to both on thebed with you by adjusting, like
as I mentioned the post, likeout of cat tree near the bed.
We have a storage chest at thefoot of our bed.
(21:21):
We call it the trundle becauseit increased the amount of space
on.
That's a bed level, right.
So I personally am a lightsleeper and you know I love it
when our cats all sleep in thebed with us.
But I also sometimes hate itbecause, like you know, last
night Coriander was weighingdown the bed between my legs.
It was like a bowling ball.
I couldn't move all night right, and I sometimes get restless
(21:44):
legs syndrome.
So I was like, oh, my legsreally want to like move right
now, but they're like pinneddown by a cat and I love her.
So I, you know, I appreciateand love the closeness, so I
didn't move her.
I just didn't get as much sleepas I would like to.
But you know, sometimes if youhave eight cats you either have
a very big bed or you don't havea lot of room to sleep if
(22:05):
they're all in the bed with you.
So sometimes just getting theterritory around the bed can
help with that.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
It was such a simple solution.
You know it didn't requireanything extra.
It was such a simple solution.
I thought like, oh, she's,she's good, so what would?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
you say the most.
I try to come up with solutionsthat are workable.
Yeah, sorry, I try to come upwith solutions that my clients
can do right, because it's justif you give them things that are
too hard or too many things todo, they get overwhelmed, and so
sometimes, luckily, there'ssome really easy things you can
do to make life better for youand your cats.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, Okay then.
Um, so I'm wondering uh, dosome people say, like you know,
oh, my cat must be lonely, I'mgoing to get him another cat.
What if?
I mean, I love the fact ifsomeone wants to get multiple
cats because that's more homesfor cats, right, so that's great
.
Sure, Do cats in general?
You know, I've always felt thatthis is just a personal opinion
(22:57):
Cats would rather have somebodyto like.
You know, these, look at thembe completely, 100% alone.
Now, whether that's another dogor something else, but, like,
if you're here to leave your catall day to have something to
else human, not human, somethingelse living to interact with,
hopefully something that getsalong with.
Um, you know, do do cat,because what's their nature?
(23:18):
Do they want to be solitary?
I mean, I know that my catsgroom each other, hang out
together, you know, they're allreally social with each other,
but not everybody has thatsituation.
What do you?
Uh, how do you know?
Does your cat tell you he'slonely or he's not lonely, or
what are?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
you coming down?
It's a great question and thatit's come up a lot, I think.
Certainly, like during thepandemic and as people return to
work, I think people startedhaving some guilt about leaving
their cats home alone all daywhen they were returning to the
office, even though, you know,before COVID a lot of cats
somehow survived with peopleworking out of the home right.
(23:54):
And then but it was like once westarted working from home, it's
just like well, but can'tpossibly leave the cat home
alone all day, like that's.
You know that's not not goingto work.
But cats are what we considerfaculty and of least social
meaning.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Their socialities are both sorry, say that word one
more time slower, so we facultythe least social, sorry.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
So sociology for them is a spectrum, right, it's,
it's.
It really is dependent onseveral things.
It's dependent on the cat'searly life experiences with
other animals.
It's dependent on to make like.
To an extent, domestication hasallowed cats to be more flexible
(24:33):
about being social, but it'salso highly dependent on
resources.
So when we look at feralcolonies of cats, which are
naturally occurring or, you know, maybe it's unnaturally,
because a lot of them occurbecause of human behavior, but
these are, these areaggregations of cats that form
kind of on their own.
They typically are able to doso because there's a lot of food
(24:57):
, whether it's human provided orprey, there's a lot of shelter,
there is space for them todecide if they want to leave or
not.
So that is how cats naturallyform groups, right is?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
they kind of do it of their own volition, they choose
so so I hang out with the notnecessarily wired to be solitary
.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
No, their closest related ancestors are a solitary
animal and cats are a solitaryhunter, but they do have the
flexibility I guess is what Iwould say.
They're flexible.
The challenge is that in thehome environment we are choosing
their social partners.
(25:41):
We are providing either enoughresources, not enough resources,
abundant resources.
We have control over how muchterritory those cats have.
Do they need to go outside?
Is our house 900 square feet or3000 square feet?
So we're imposing a lot oflimitations on them and often
(26:05):
making poor choices about who webring into the home as a
companion for our cats, how weintroduce them and how we
provide for them, and thatcauses a lot of strife.
Actually, the most commonreason I'm called for help is
that someone has adopted a newcat and that cat and the
resident cat are currentlyfighting.
That is a big issue for a lotof people.
It causes a lot of stress orcat in the light.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah, well, in my experience, when I want to get a
new cat, I'll adopt two kittenstogether.
Nice, yeah.
And then I have my adult catand the two kittens put their
energy into each other insteadof their eyes and are picking on
or trying to interact too muchwith the adult cat, and then
they love each other, the twokittens, but eventually the
adult cat accepts them.
(26:48):
Now that adult cat's prettyaccepting in general, but it was
like the two kittens were youngenough so they weren't causing
any issues with being a fullgrown adult cat.
I can't bring in a full grownadult cat because everyone's
spayed and neutered, of course.
But say, I brought an adultspayed or adult neutered cat,
that would be a problem 99% ofthe time, based on my group
(27:09):
Right.
But in my home if I bring intwo kittens it's like oh dang,
those kittens are so annoying,but there's two of them, so
they're putting the energy intoeach other, not bothering that
one cat by himself, andeventually they all kind of work
.
Now I'm a unique situationbecause I've been doing this a
long time and I know that we'redoing me.
Not everyone can run out andadopt two kittens, but I think
(27:31):
we should.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I 100% agree.
I am not a fan of single kittenadoptions for various reasons.
Certainly if you have an oldercat in the home and you get one
kitten, that one kitten is attheir kind of peak social period
so they're very interested ininteracting with other cats at
that time, and so you're reallyjust setting them up for failure
because they are probably goingto pester that adult cat
(27:53):
constantly to play.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah like to cuddle.
You did me, you did me.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, exactly, and depending on the age of the
older cat, that can beproblematic.
I will say there's one of theproblems we have is that there's
been very little research onwhy cats and homes get along and
what facilitates thoserelationships.
It's just a topic that has notbeen studied and so we really
don't have a lot to go on.
And so when we're talking aboutchoosing a new cat, you know a
(28:21):
lot of it is anecdotal, likewell, this makes sense, like get
two kittens together.
They can play with each other.
They're very similar.
If you have a 15 year old cat,don't get a single kitten,
because they're just mismatchedin energy and life stage.
Yeah, but certainly there'salways exceptions to the rule,
and the one study that has beendone looking at introducing a
new cat into a household thatalready has cats suggests that
(28:43):
about 60 70% of thoseintroductions within a month
will be fine, like those catswill accept each other, and then
there's going to be a handfulthat are going to take longer.
And then there's a smalleramount, probably closer to 10%,
where you could have someproblems, where the cat actually
do not get along.
Maybe you're fighting or justcausing others Right On that
(29:05):
point.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I just read a study, or looked or read about a study
about how dogs that of courseit's really important to
socialize puppies and all thosethings you know that you need to
do with a dog right, same withthe kitten, but some dogs,
through genetics and just youknow what, are born with the
(29:27):
temperament that not going tohandle this.
Handle change, handle, change.
So the whole point is like,when you're looking for a puppy,
look for a puppy that isadaptable and can handle noise
and things and stuff happeningaround them, instead of a puppy
that is like in the same litter,but he's going to be more
worried about change, he's moreneurotic in a sense.
You know so, are there ingeneral, is there?
(29:50):
There must be a range in cats,because I know that for animal
actors, I can't work with a catwho's scared of the environment
or, you know, no matter where hewas born or how he was raised.
Okay, so say he had optimumconditions in his litter.
Okay, yeah so.
But in that litter there'sgoing to be the outgoing bold
ones that are self confident andthey walk with their tail
(30:11):
straight up and they're curiousabout the world.
And there's in the same litter.
There could be one that goes not, I don't want to interact so
much, I'm going to be over hereNow.
That could be a fine house cat.
I'll buy himself someone'swonderful pet for animal acting.
This would not be happy, hewould not be happy, but I have
enough experience to see that.
Do you think it's similar incats that even with optimum
(30:33):
raising okay, you know, say itwas foster cat, it was a foster
cat and you know part of theshelter and the cat at someone's
home.
So they had the kittens, sothey had like socialization and
all the proper things donenutrition, no fighting, blah,
blah, blah.
Some of those, some of thosecats are going to be better
suited being the only cat andsome of those other cats will be
suited to be hey, you know, andsome are suited to be acting
(30:55):
cats.
Not that that's a big call, butyou know.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really interested in the impacts
of early life experience onkittens through adulthood and
some of my research at UC Daviswas was looking at some of these
issues.
And, to be clear, yes, everycat has a personality, right,
they have individual differencesand things that make them
unique, and some of that isbased on genetics.
(31:21):
And there's some evidence that,for example, the trait boldness
is inherited from the fatherand within a litter you can have
kittens know that.
That is interesting.
So so, right, right, so you.
And it's very interestingbecause male cats do not provide
any paternal care for theirkittens under normal
circumstances, so there's noinfluence of care.
(31:43):
It really is their genes.
And, of course, kittens alsohave a socialization window
that's very early and short.
So their socialization windowsconsidered two to seven weeks,
so that's early.
I do not get kittens beforetheir seven weeks of age unless
they're fostering.
So it's it's a really importanttime where they can be exposed
(32:04):
to you, know different, you knownoises, people, you know other
animals etc.
And they'll be more likely tocope with those things as adults
.
But that can't explaineverything right.
Like socialization genetics,there could be things that
happen in the womb.
If the mother's stressed thekittens are in the womb, there
could be an impact on their HPAaxis, which moderate stress
(32:28):
responses.
So there's all kinds ofpossibilities.
And so when people are adoptingkittens, you know, I think we
can, we can use different thingsto help mold them into our
dream kitten, right.
We can socialize them well.
Maybe if you are purchasing akitten from a responsible
breeder, you might be able tomeet the parents right, and you
know there's some influencethere.
(32:48):
We can use training andpositive reinforcement to
further change behavior.
We can provide them with agreat environment to optimize
the chances that they will, youknow, use a scratching post
instead of scratching orfurniture and those sorts of
things.
But I still think there's acertain amount that we can't
control and, yeah, that is kindof the the personality bit that
(33:09):
we just don't have.
We just don't know why.
Certainly, I've seen enoughlitters and interacted with
enough cats to know that, yeah,you can do everything right and
you can still have a cat that'safraid when the doorbell rings,
and you can have a kid thatmaybe didn't get all of the
socialization that you wouldhave liked and they end up being
very bold anyway.
But socialization is veryimportant.
(33:30):
I would never downplay itsimportance.
I think every kitten you knowneeds good socialization to be a
good companion for most catowners.
I've had under socialized catsin my past.
I'd say the three I have noware actually a little bit on the
under socialized side becausethey grew up in a garden and by
the time they were rescued theywere already probably three
months old, which is way pastthe socialization window.
(33:53):
There was a lady who was caringfor them, so I know that they
were exposed to people, but theyprobably didn't expose.
They weren't exposed to beingin the home or anything like
that.
Right, I'm very comfortablewith cats who are not bold like
I like shy cats, I like thattype of thing.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah, you're early beginning there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
But certainly some people, if they had kids or a
very loud, active household,that would not be a good fit for
them.
So I think it is.
It helps to certainly to meet,and it sounds like you spend a
lot of time thinking about who'sthe right kitten for my next
star.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Oh right, because I keep them.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
And I want them to be happy because I could make a
cat stay on set, I could shapeit, but it may not be happy, so
why would I do that?
Yeah, you know, it's likethere's no point, because A you
wouldn't look happy, so thenit's not a good result.
And B, I don't think it's fair.
I just don't want to treatanimals like that, you know so,
like if I had a kid and I meanyou ask my own kids I never put
(34:55):
them into modeling Because it'slike, you know, bad enough.
I have the cats and my you know, my dogs and other animals
weren't, but no, because it'slike you want them to have fun
with it and you know so.
But anyway, but no, I thinkwhat you're saying about the
cats raising the garden can betrue, because my boldest, some
of my boldest, well, all my catsare rescues, you know, from
from a shelter or, or myneighbor or not, but a
(35:19):
neighboring farm.
Okay, so those cats are totallyraised outside.
But also, because they wereraised outside, they were fed,
take care of their nice people,but they were very brave because
they've they've been in theworld their entire lives, you
know.
But I do get them at aboutseven weeks, Um, you know.
So I see what you're sayingthere, that that, that
(35:40):
socialization.
Well, this is a good segue toyour book.
Let's talk about your upcomingbook, because that making a nice
environment for your cats youplay with your cat sounds really
fun and it's enjoyable.
I know I enjoy throwing themouse because that side Cleo
(36:01):
retrieves, so we spent a lot oftime when I'm watching you throw
in the mouse.
Um, you know, uh and oh.
Let's also talk about laserpointers too, because I know
cats enjoy them.
But I've read, and I believe it, that it's very frustrating for
cats to play with them.
Is that right?
Because there's no physicalgrabbing it and that's just like
anxiety causing maybe.
(36:22):
So let's talk about your bookand maybe that too.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Okay, no, that sounds good, um, yeah.
So my book play with your catcomes out on March 5th this year
, 2024, on Tarture Paragate andit really was inspired by, I
think, working with so manyclients who told me that their
cats didn't play.
And with any cases it wasbecause they were saying that,
(36:46):
because I was recommending playas part of their baby
modification plan, because Iwould recognize that their cat
was either bored or frustratedor stressed.
And to me, um, play is anobvious antidote to a lot of
those psychological ills.
For the same reasons that, likeexercise, is beneficial to us
in that it releases goodendorphins and can take our mind
(37:07):
off our troubles, but alsobecause it is for cats,
especially indoor cats, anexpression of predatory behavior
.
Their play is really the sameas predatory behavior.
It's motivated by the samethings like the uh, the shape
and size of the toy and howhungry they are, and it is kind
of fits into the animal welfaremodels which really put emphasis
(37:29):
on allowing animals to expressnatural behaviors.
So for cats, um, play isallowing them to express
predatory behaviors.
So clients would be like, ohyeah, he doesn't play.
Oh, he's, you know, he's five,he doesn't play, as if somehow,
you know, if you're over fourand you're a cat, you just stop.
You lose all interest in life,um, so that was really.
I just kept you know.
So what would happen is if Iwas doing a home visit and
(37:52):
people be like, oh, my catdoesn't play, I'd be like, let's
step aside, let me get a toyand let me show you.
And then they would always belike, oh my God, like we've
never seen him do this, becauseI would be able to get the cap
to play, um, partly because Iwas, I knew what I was doing, um
, and but also because they justhadn't tried in a really long
time.
So so it was really like againand again seeing people be like
(38:14):
Whoa, you know, fluffy likes toplay.
So it was cool and that, tappinginto that connection that I was
able to create and following upwith them later, they're like
oh yeah, he really loves playing, like, thank you so much for
you know, showing us that youknow he really does like to play
.
That I thought, okay, this is atopic that I'm passionate about
.
I ended up writing a scientificpaper with my friend, julie
(38:36):
Hecht, about play.
So we reviewed all thescientific literature that we
could find about cat play andsynthesized this into a
scientific review paper, and soI already had the theoretical
stuff kind of in the back of mymind.
And then I had the applied partof working with clients and
seeing the problems they hadwith play, the reasons that they
didn't play, that I thought,okay, this could be a cool book,
(38:58):
and yeah.
So that's kind of how that ideawas born, okay, and now it's
coming out soon.
I mean it's funny because Ifinished writing the book almost
a year and a half ago, so thewhole publishing thing is just a
very slow machine.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Oh yeah, no, I have a book out too.
It took a year, I think, yeahyeah, it takes a long time.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
So it's been, you know, for me.
I'm like, oh my God.
Well, this book just come outalready, but now it's almost a
year, so it's I think it's sevenweeks from today, the date of
this recording, that that itwill be on the shelf.
So that's very exciting, and Iswear when people they will.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
it's going to be a great book.
Where can they find?
We'll have a.
We'll have a link to yourpreorder for now, but in general
, because this podcast will liveforever, so say the book's out,
where will they find it?
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, so it's on the Penguin Random House website and
it will hopefully be in lots ofbookstores and libraries near
you.
You can always go to one of mywebsites and I will have links
to.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
That's great.
You got Penguin Random Housebecause my oddly enough, my book
was published to them and theywere great to work with as far
as publicizing it.
And you know, I mean I'm surethis will lead to wonderful
things for you because you'vegot a major well, I think the
biggest one a major publisher.
Very exciting, that's very cool, besides just sorry, book nerd
(40:14):
thing.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
But no, no, yeah, no, it's great, and I just found
out today it's going to come outin Dutch in the Netherlands and
it's going to come out in Italy, so so it'll just be nice to
kind of see how it goes.
But the so the point of thebook is it's like half science
about why cats play, why animalsplay.
You know what we know about cathealth and play and why.
(40:36):
You know hunting behavior andhow that ties into how your cat
plays.
And then the other half isreally practical, like here's
how to pick toys for your catand here's when you should play
with your cat, and here's theyou know other supplies you
might want to use, likecardboard boxes and paper bags
Right, everyone knows that.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
And and some things beyond that.
And then it's like you knowwhat to do if you have multiple
cats, or what if your cat has adisability.
How can you modify the play toaccommodate?
I mean it's out of that so yeah, so I'm really trying to you,
can't?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
can't wait to see that.
You know that's, that'sfantastic.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
It's illustrated by Lily Chin.
I don't know if you're familiarwith her work, but she's at
doggiedrawingsnet and she's donea lot of amazing animal
illustrations.
She's a good friend of mine, soit's it's got really cute
illustrations.
So my goal is that it's areally fun book, but it also is
informative, helps people have abetter relationship with their
cat and hopefully gets a lotmore cats playing.
(41:31):
And you know, in this case I'mreally focused on the
interactive play, which is, youknow human holding a stick with
a you know string and somethingon the end and moving it in a
way that really inspires theircats predatory behavior.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Oh yeah, we wouldn't get cat modeling.
We couldn't get them to modelif they weren't playful.
You know, for like what I do,because I can't get the focus on
the camera.
Look at the camera.
Unless there's, they don't careabout the camera.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Get them feather around yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
They're watching.
They're watching either thefeather or the toy, you know,
depending on their age and stuff, or they're to the level of
shaped behavior that they'rewatching the bit of turkey that
I'm holding.
That is going to be yummy.
So it just kind of depends onon where we are with their
shaping, but totally becauseit's got to be fun.
Well, that's pretty exciting,okay.
Well then, the one of the otherthings I wanted to ask you out
(42:18):
before we move on to, kind of,the closing section.
I want to ask you about the.
What would be the when peoplecome to you with a problem about
their cats, like what is the?
The main question, the mainthing, the main reason they've
come to you over all the otherreasons?
I'm going to guess one, but Iwant you to say what's causing
people the most problem?
(42:39):
And it's probably not causingthe cat a problem at all.
It's probably a lot of humanstuff.
I mean, if you fixed it for thecat and what I'm trying to say
cats just being a cat, that'swhat I'm trying to say.
Sure, yeah, I mean, what wouldbe the number one problem that
people are faced with?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, so the number one reason people call for help
is what I call intracataggression, right, so aggression
between cats in the home, yeah,number two is litter box
avoidance.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
That's the one that's what I thought would be number
one.
I have to write, but wouldn'tlitter box avoidance also be
from not doing the resourcesproperly?
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Yeah, so everything, yeah so many of the issues are
really about the environment.
So, whether it's the level offor the number of resources we
provide, do we provide enoughlitter boxes right, provide
enough scratching posts?
Do we clean the litter box?
Do the cats have things to keepthem busy during the day so
(43:33):
that they're not up all night orgetting bored and frustrated
and destructive?
So there's so many kind of basicthings that don't necessarily
have to do with the problemitself, but it's just about
providing the things that ourcats need, and there's a model
that I really like called thefive pillars of a healthy feline
environment that thisorganization called iCatCare and
(43:56):
the American Association offeline practitioners
collaborated on, and it reallyis about providing things like
safe spaces for our cats andhaving multiple and separated
resources for our cats, givingthem outlets for predatory
behavior, giving themappropriate social interactions,
whether that's with humans orother animals.
(44:16):
And also a big one that peopledon't think about is respecting
their sense of smell, becausethey have a very sensitive
factory scent and they also usescent a lot for their everyday
life, right Like communicatingand marking their territory.
So really just getting peopleunderstanding why their cat does
the thing that is botheringthem Sometimes it's sufficient
(44:39):
to address the problem right,just changing how the person
feels about the problem andgiving them more empathy for
their cat, giving them more ofan understanding of what's
natural for cats, and also thecats are not humans or dogs.
So that is like a big part ofwhat I'm doing, you know, and
then there's certainly otherthings that involve, you know.
A lot of it is changing withhumans behavior, but also we're
(45:01):
doing behavior modification withthe cats.
So I do have a lot of myclients do training with their
cats using the thought of thereinforcement method.
So sometimes that's somethingfunctional, like training their
cat to go in a carrier on theirown so that they don't have to
chase their cat around when theyneed to go to the vet.
It could be training a cat,you're trying to put him in the
crate.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, a lot of stress.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
No, I get it, yeah it could be training their cat to
sit on a mat instead of chasingthe other cat in the home.
So we're doing a lot of likerelaxation exercises, a lot of
that stuff that's derivedprobably from some of the horse
and dog literature I'm surewe're using increasingly the
cats.
So it is, you know, big picture, what's the problem?
The problem is that they don'tunderstand cats.
(45:42):
That gets down to you, okay,your cats, like you're gonna
call this using waterbox.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Let's just call the podcast that.
Well, just you know.
Here's the big problem theydon't understand cats the way
that's.
That's nails it right there.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Well, this has been really cool.
I didn't want to speak to thelaser pointer in question.
Oh yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah, I'll give a quickanswer.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
We can edit this in, so that's earlier, but no
problem so okay, cool.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
So you asked about laser pointers and you know
laser pointers.
I'm kind of I guess I'm not asrabidly against them as a lot of
people are Certainly in dogs.
There's been a lot ofdocumentation of compulsive
behaviors that start up withlaser pointers With cats.
I think they should not be themain tool in your toolbox if for
(46:29):
play, so you can use itsparingly as long as your cat
doesn't seem to have any type oflight obsession that you know
those behaviors that we see indogs, like air snapping or kind
of repeated looking for thelight after it goes away.
And I'd say my approach is ifyou are going to use the laser
pointer, treat it like you wouldor treat it like it's a real
physical object.
(46:49):
So have it follow the laws ofphysics.
Don't make it go halfway up thewall and then just disappear.
Have it go under a doorway soit kind of disappears naturally,
like prey with like a mask wentunder the door.
Okay, and then I recommendfollowing that with a real toy.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
A treat for your cat.
So there's kind of you'recompleting the entire hunting
cycle, of you know stocking,that's kind of what I was trying
to get to.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Yeah, yeah, so it's teasing the poor thing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
I think people, people gravitate toward it
because they don't have to getoff the couch and that's like a
poor amazing cat toy.
Yeah, so it's not my favorite,but I'm not.
I'm not throwing it out of thetoolbox, it's just at the bottom
of the toolbox and it's not mygo to for sure.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Okay, well, now the time that what we call this part
of the podcast is called treattime and questions, and so if
you were here, I just droppedthem all over my keyboard.
I have these cornmeal blueberrymuffins and we're gonna snarf
from Don one after we're donebecause my crew have to feed my
crew.
But it just kind of marks atreat time, kind of marks the
(47:59):
part of the podcast where we askyou the five questions.
Now these five questions comefrom.
I copied the idea from WarwickSchiller, who has a wonderful
podcast about horses, and hecopied this concept from Tim
Ferriss book tribe of mentors,and so I sent you 20 questions
and out of them you picked fiveand we're going to ask those
(48:21):
questions.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Okay, Okay, hopefully I don't regret my choices.
It was not a test.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
It's not a test, so it's okay, all right.
First question what is the mostvaluable thing that you've put
your time into that has changedthe course of your life?
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Yeah, I would say the day I walked into that animal
shelter to volunteer, you knowit was very much about helping
the community and helping thecommunity animals and it turned
into a career path.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, but that sounds pretty remarkable.
I believe that.
Okay, what accomplishment areyou most proud of, and why?
Speaker 1 (49:00):
I mean, right now it'd be easy to save my book,
but I think it was getting a PhD.
I started grad school when Iwas 38, 39 years old, so I was
very much like I mentionedbefore.
I dropped out of college, right, I didn't really say what
happened later, but I went backto college in 2008 to finish my
(49:21):
bachelor's degree and decidedthat I wanted to pursue research
and a PhD, and it took sevenyears.
It was a lot of work, it wasreally fun and it was very mind
expanding and really really justa very positive experience for
me.
I mean, academia is hard.
(49:41):
There certainly were tears,there were problems, but overall
it was just very mentallystimulating and a great learning
experience.
I definitely am veryappreciative that I went through
that time and that I workedwith a mentor who was really
supportive Dr Lucia Jacobs, andI'm yeah, so I'd say I'm very
(50:02):
proud of getting that PhD.
It was a lot of work, it wasfun.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
For sure, and then look at how we all benefit from
you doing that and then all theother stuff you did and how the
cats are benefiting.
So good on you.
That was a good thing.
Okay, well, I always liked thisone.
What is the worst advice givenin your profession or the bad
idea that you hear in your fieldof expertise?
Speaker 1 (50:25):
I think the thing that I'm well it ties back into
the respect thing right.
It's really the idea that weshould change behavior using
aversive negative experiences.
So in the cat world, what'sbeen kind of decided is a not so
(50:46):
bad behavior change technique.
Is the spray model right, likeevery cat owner's got a spray
bottle that they point at theircat when their cat's doing
something they don't like andit's, you know, it's innocuous,
right?
The water is not going to likecause your cat to bleed or no,
but does it make?
Speaker 2 (51:06):
sense to them?
Does it make sense?
Speaker 1 (51:08):
No, and you know we're using a.
I personally use spray bottlesin my house to like clean things
and people use them to waterplants.
Why are we also using it topunish cats?
So I think it really is gettingback to like people don't
understand behavior.
They don't understand behaviorchange, and certainly changing
(51:28):
behavior in humans is muchharder than it is in animals.
I would much rather train thecat than a human in the hands
down.
So for me, I think the badadvice that goes around is
really around that you know, oh,a little spray of water is
going to fix this, to eat yourproblem.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
So yeah, no, he just won't do it when you're there.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Yeah, I think exactly .
Yeah, there's yeah.
They'll either stop caring orthey'll just do it as soon as
you turn around.
So I think it is really justtrying to help people understand
why those of us who rely onpositive reinforcement methods
for behavior change have landedon that philosophy and how it's
based in science and it's basedin animal welfare science.
(52:11):
So it's not necessarily justabout behavior change, but it's
about changing behavior in waysthat are ethical and kind and
effective.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
And I mean empathy, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Perfect, Okay.
What inspires and motivates youto do what you do?
What is your true?
Excuse me, what inspires andmotivates you to do what you do
and what is your true purpose inthe world?
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not .
I'm not really a spiritualperson and you know, I guess I
could consider myself a bit oflike.
I'm a very positive person, butI also go through periods where
I think there there isn'treally like, there doesn't have
to be a purpose in our life somuch as like we try to like get
through it.
(52:59):
But yeah on a good day.
I mean, I think you know mywhat gives my life purpose is
helping cats be happy andhelping cat owners have a better
relationship with their cat sothat their cats are happier.
So yeah, it really is abouttrying to really help the cat
(53:21):
human bond survive and thrive.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Well, that sounds sounds great to me.
Sounds sounds like a good thing.
Okay, and then the lastquestion of the question part is
what have you become better atsaying no to?
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Oh, I say no a lot more than I used to.
I see fewer clients than Icould Like.
I say no to reviewing a lot ofscientific papers.
So when you're in academia youget asked to.
You know the peer reviewprocess is other scientists
review scientific publications.
You don't get paid for thatwork and so I've just become a
(54:00):
lot pickier about what papersare of you.
So a lot of it is kind of thislike busy work, that kind of
sneaks into your life, and Iadopted the you know mindset of
if I say yes to this, what am Igoing to have to say no to?
So it has okay, good, so I dotry to say no to things that
don't excite me, that don't payme.
(54:23):
I mean I do some free thingsbut I say yeah, I get it less of
them.
So it is really about.
And the other thing is just.
For example, couple years ago Idecided I was going to stop
working on weekends.
I used to see clients on theweekend and I just was, like I
need two days off, like to justnot work and not think about
work, and I just want to read anovel and watch TV and go for a
(54:44):
walk and bake cookies and hangout with my cats.
And that used to be very hardfor me.
I used to be definitely.
Like you know, my idea of avacation is to, like you know,
stay at home and like catch upon all the like you know busy
work and tech stuff.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
that same thing, yeah no same, your self employed,
there's not ever a vacation.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
There really isn't.
So I've really worked hard totry to take more time off, and
that means saying no sometimesand limiting what I can do.
But I do feel like I do better,like I'm bringing a better me
to the clients that I do see inthe work that I do take on.
Speaker 2 (55:20):
No, healthy boundaries are good and we are
extremely grateful that you saidyes to this, because it's been
really wonderful.
You know, speaking with youtoday, I think I, you know, I'm
somewhat knowledgeable aboutcats, right, but I know that
just in the short time I'velearned some things like how the
father's temperament can bepassed on or it's important you
(55:42):
know, genetically from thefather.
That's I'm going to look intothat.
That's fascinating to me.
Yeah, because my cats are allstraight.
I never know the father.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Yeah, I mean most of us don't right.
Speaker 2 (55:51):
I mean it's just yeah that's so interesting, among
other, among other great stuffthat you shared with us today.
This has been super cool.
I feel like we don't haveenough time.
I wish we had more time becausethere's like I'd love to do
this again after your book comesout.
You will give it some time, butthere's more stuff that I'm
sure people want to know about.
You know what kind of litterbox is best you know, but also
(56:13):
more about about your life andhow your cats, how you.
I wish I had time to ask youhow you found each individual
cat, like their individual storyand all that kind of stuff.
But good on you.
And how exciting about the book.
We will make sure to linkeverything up.
I'm going to give you a fewminutes here to tell us how we
find you.
Now we'll have all this stufflisted in the show notes.
(56:34):
But what's if somebody wants tohire you to talk to you about
the their cat?
You know where do they go.
How do we find you?
Speaker 1 (56:41):
Okay, yes, well, first of all, thank you so much
for having me.
It's been really great talkingto you.
It's been a really lovelyconversation, so I appreciate
that If people are interested infinding me, probably the
easiest way is to go to Michaeldelgadocom and from there you
can get to my businessconsulting website, which is
felinemindscom, and my blog,which is what your cat, or
(57:03):
opscom.
I have too many websites.
That's probably something Ishould have cut back on, but I
didn't.
But yeah, so that I'm on theinternet, I'm on the gram.
Speaker 2 (57:13):
Oh yeah, you're on Instagram.
You post a lot I mean, that'swhere I found you and there's
always something useful.
Like every, you know you mustdo that.
You're really good at itbecause you've got this great
information all the time.
I'm always learning when I'm onyour Instagram account.
So, besides the other places,so that's pretty cool.
That's it, thank you.
Well, thank you so much,michael.
This has been a delight.
(57:33):
I just want to go pet my cats.
Speaker 1 (57:35):
I don't know what it is, but I hope everyone else is
feeling the same way.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
Okay.
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