October 14, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode of The Empathetic Trainer Podcast, Barbara O’Brien talks with Rachel Windchaser, author and equine rewilding coach. Rachel runs Winchaser Ranch in Spain, where she cares for a rare herd of Spanish Mustangs.
They talk about what it really means to “rewild” — how slowing down, breathing, and paying attention can change the way we connect with horses and with ourselves. Rachel explains the value of touch, rhythm, and trust, and why real horsemanship starts with self-awareness and kindness.
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SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer, and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
Hello everyone and welcome backto the Empathetic Trainer
Podcast.
Today's guest is RachelWinchaser.
Rachel is the author ofPrinciples of Rewilding,
(00:34):
Horsemanship from Nature, ajourney into core beliefs and
natural wisdom.
She is the steward of WinchesterRanch in Spain, where she cares
for a rare herd of SpanishMustangs.
Her work is rooted in the ideaof rewilding, not as a method or
a quick fix, but as a way ofreturning to presence,
sensitivity, and awareness inthe horse-human relationship.
Well, I am all about this,Rachel.
(00:56):
I am all about this.
Learning from my own half-feraluh uh Morgan horses that I got
from a ranch in Montana.
They they they have taught me alot about being present.
And and boy, do they tell you ifyou're not.
So we want to learn all aboutthat.
Um I want to show everyone, ofcourse, it's blurry because of
(01:17):
the way the camera works.
Let's see if we can get it inthere.
Um, Rachel's book.
It's called The Principles ofRewilding.
Um, it's a great read.
So much to unpack in this book,Rachel.
Uh so we're we're grateful.
Um, I've already got like littlesticky notes with my favorite
quotes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
Brilliant.
So I think that is my perfectview of the book.
Dirty, scribbled on, stickynotes.
It's my vision that it becomesother people, it's not mine
anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Well, that's great.
Well, what I want to talk aboutfirst is like tell us about you.
How did you get into this andtell us where you are?
Um, I'm here in rural Wisconsin,so um we're and you're across
the co you know, across theocean from us.
Uh so appreciate uh the timedifference.
And uh so tell us about whereyou where you are and how you
got started and how this cameabout, what you're doing right
(02:08):
now.
SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
Okay, so uh we are in rural Spain.
We're about two and a half hourssouth of Barcelona on the east
coast, but in the mountains, inthe hills.
We live in deep forest.
Um I moved to Spain when I wasabout 18, 19 years old.
It was a bit on a bit of a whim.
(02:31):
And I I you know I'm convincedthat I was a Spaniard in a
different life because I feel soat home on in this country and
on this land.
Um and I think it because ittakes me back to my childhood
and how I grew up, which wasvery um well, probably feral,
(02:53):
most people would have c wouldhave called it.
Um, you know, we live off grid.
And the reason specifically whywe're in this region, in this
area, is because of the SpanishMustangs, because this is one of
their original environments umthat they would have evolved in.
Um because the Spanish Mustangwas lost to Spain about 300
(03:20):
years ago.
So the herd that we have here isthe only herd in Spain, it's a
dream to reintroduce them.
They're not wild, they'redomestic but undiluted is is how
I like to describe them becausethey are so close to their
nature, they're so close tohorse.
They haven't been through anybreeding program that has
reduced them to um buttons andpush and go and and that loss of
(03:46):
self.
Um but yeah, it is um and thisthe environment that we have
here, the the the forage, theplants are all part of how they
would have it would haveevolved, like I say.
So the just a really briefhistory because otherwise I
(04:07):
could I could tell a podcastjust on this on its own.
Um in these are the horses thatthe conquestors sent to America
to discover America.
And eventually they were, like Isay, they were lost to Spain,
and they were also becoming veryum lost in America until
(04:27):
obviously that they were adoptedby a lot of the tribes and they
became the Indian ponies.
And I fell in love with thestory, the romantic uh romantic
side of it, and Charlie, who isthe heart and soul of this ranch
and why we're here, why it allbegan this this whole um mission
(04:51):
really arrived in my life thetime that I needed him.
So although my life has beenquite eclectic, I've always come
back for horses and I've alwaysbeen healed by horses.
They've always been very healingfor me.
And there was a moment in mylife that I was um I was asked
(05:12):
by my partner, what's gonna getyou out of this deep hole?
It's due to bereavement andgrief, but again, that's a big
story.
And I said, I need a I need toget near horses because it was a
very rare moment in my life thatI I had no horses in my personal
horses in my life.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
I completely understand that.
Which is something similar,totally good.
SPEAKER_02 (05:35):
Ah, okay.
And so I started looking and umI was looking for the Spanish
horses.
I had Spanish horses before, andI loved the Spanish horses and
how they how they think.
And then I came across theSpanish Mustang, and it just
grew from there.
And yeah, the 10-year-old girlin me, little girl in me,
decided I know what I'm gonnado.
(05:55):
I'm gonna set up a ranch and setup a reservation and I'm gonna
bring them back to Spain.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
That's amazing.
Um, we're we're lucky that nearme, maybe 10 miles away, is a
gal who has um tiger mustangs,which are Spanish Mustangs from
the Kyger range.
And she has um some studs andsome mares, and she's carefully
breeding and they are and sheuses a very uh positive,
wonderful relationship-basedtraining with them.
(06:21):
And uh just just watching theirrelationship because there's not
a lot of it's it's all anagreement, and it's it's
beautiful.
And um, so we're gonna have heras a pod guest guest sometime.
But I I've seen them, at leastthe ones here in America, I've
seen them in person.
And uh the bone, the structure,the hooves, personality, um,
wow, you know, just absolutelylove them.
SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
But I think um, you know, I felt like I knew quite a
lot about horses.
I had my first pony at three, II grew up with them, they were
part of the family tradition, ishow we how we lived.
Um, but these guys, which isprobably what she's also
experiencing, you cannot do itany other way but through
(07:06):
relationships.
They are so clear about whatthey need as a horse, and the
change in me with them and how Iapproach the other horses in my
care, which you know, myclients' horses has made such a
big difference, and reallythat's where the book came from.
(07:27):
I I say that I you know, I wrotethe book, though the words are
mine on paper, but it's onlythrough me and it is from them
because a shift in the in themindset of how how the nature,
the nature of us, if we canunderstand our nature and
understand our horses' natureand what we share and what we
(07:49):
don't share and respect that, beaware of that, these guys have
certainly taught me that lesson.
In fact, our foundation stallionhere came from America.
We actually um brought him over.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
Well that's so this is so interesting that they've
come full circle.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
So that that part's pretty cool.
So how many Spanish Mustangs doyou think are in Spain right
now?
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
I can tell you there's five, and they're all
mine.
They're all here at the ranch.
That's it.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
We had our first baby uh a fewyears ago.
Um and uh yeah, so cool.
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Well, I want to talk about one of the quotes very
early in the book, but it reallystruck me.
And I want and hopefully you canexplain better to us.
Um, it says, Rewilding is notabout taming the horse, it is
about untaming ourselves.
And I just thought that wasreally deep.
Um we have a 40-acre farm, smallfarm here in Wisconsin.
(08:54):
As you can see behind me, it'sopen and rolling hills,
whatever.
When people come from the citiesto visit, because it's you know
metro areas, they go like this.
Because you can feel the land.
Just starting with the landhelps them breathe because
people, I think, the the moremechanized and digital and crazy
(09:14):
the world gets, the more peoplecrave uh connection to nature.
And I feel that horses are oneof the best connections that we
can get from something beyondourselves, uh, that is that is
like nature in its form, becausehey, they're nice to be around.
They're not gonna hurt us like abear could.
Uh they're not gonna run awaylike deer will, usually, right?
(09:37):
You can interact with thiscreature that is purely 100%
present there in the world.
He's got no pretense, he's justdoing horse things.
He doesn't know tomorrow.
So um when they finally come,when they start to talk to the
sheep and they talk to thehorses, and they, you know, they
just you can see it shed.
They're just shedding, you know.
So let's let's talk about whatyou mean by rewilding and how
(10:00):
that, you know, kind of give meyour low-down on that.
SPEAKER_02 (10:03):
Well, for me, rewilding is about remembering,
it's about remembering who weare as a being first, um, and
shedding the domestic side ofour daily lives, the pressure
that we put ourselves under.
(10:26):
By remembering what we know deepdown that we have forgotten that
we are able to connect withourselves and that desire to
connect with our horses or toconnect with nature is much more
difficult if we are not able toconnect with ourselves.
(10:49):
Awareness of self, awareness ofwho we are as a being,
imperfections and all, becauseit's important to understand
that the seeking of perfectionin the connection, whether it is
with another person, with ahorse, or with the environment,
is something that is driven bythe um by the the how can I say
(11:18):
the unrealness of our dailylives.
So for me it's about rememberingthat we were once, our true
nature, our true nature isn'ttake.
It is wild.
We are beings.
And if we can understand that,if we can understand um how
(11:40):
sensitive sensitive and howsensory other beings are,
including the environment, wecan start shedding away some of
those layers and get deeper intothe understanding that we can
also be sensitive.
I don't believe that we can beas sensitive as a horse, for
(12:02):
example.
They the the sensory input thatthey the the way they take in
the world is obviously differentin terms of uh both
scientifically, emotionally.
Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
Yeah, the more we learn about how horses think in
their brain, and I didn't knowtheir sense of smell was as
good, if not better, than a dog.
Absolutely.
Couldn't figure out why my myferal mare would sniff me from
head to toe when I because Itrain animal actors, so when I
come home from the studio, Ismell like a whole bunch of
different dogs.
She would sniff me from head totoe, just taking in this
information.
(12:33):
And I'd never had a horse dothat, and I found out that that
had to do with her sense ofsmell and that she was kidding.
SPEAKER_02 (12:39):
Yeah, we we go for a lot of forage walks here, and
you can see them tracking, andit's amazing what they find and
what they what they arefollowing, and it's been also
that's been a really interestingum conversation to have with the
youngster because it's been partof his education.
(13:00):
Because if we take the oldhorses out, they're gonna leave
their smell because obviouslythey have scent pads in their in
their hooves and and they leavetheir their poop, etc.
And his ability to understand anew environment based on the
smells of his companions hasbeen amazing.
That whole witnessing isn't justvisual for a horse, witnessing
(13:24):
is also through all the sensesthat they carry.
And that's what I mean again bybeing sensitive.
And if we can learn to expandour perception, expand our
perception of both ourselves andthe environment that we're in,
we get back to a slightly lesstamed version of ourselves.
It's more about remembering it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Okay, so I have a question.
Then say there's a scenario,somebody um, you know, gets a
new horse and they bring it,they're we're gonna say that
it's home, so it's not a boardedsituation.
They can be with the horse, youknow, when they can.
Um and uh how do they start?
Because say this horse has beentrained and maybe could even be
a little bit shut down, one orthe other, either reactive or
(14:07):
shut down to um and kind ofmaybe so let's pretend this
particular horse is a doll inthe sense that he's been shut
down and he just goes, Okay,this is my fate.
I mean, there's not much sparkthere because I'm just gonna do
what they need.
You know, we've seen this.
Um so they get this horse home.
How do you suggest what would bepractical steps for them?
And I realize in a book we talkabout don't have an agenda,
(14:30):
don't have a, you know, it's nota schedule, you know, you're
gonna go in.
But like um, you talk aboutbreathing a lot, which I found
to be very, very important whenI'm working any kind of animal
um to to be matching theirbreathing and relaxing with
them.
And because horses don't knowwe're scared of them, you know,
like so that you know, yourlittle child or child gets on
there and they're like a littlebit nervous, you say, Let's take
(14:52):
a breath, let's just relax andlet's because he doesn't know
that you're scared of him.
So we can he's you know he'sgonna be scared too, which
likely have nice horses, but youknow what I mean?
Like they don't know we'rescared of them, so they get
anxious when we're anxious,right?
So, what would be yoursuggestion for a practical, you
know, or a a way to start,because it's a process.
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
The human being.
Any relationship with uh with ahorse starts with how we show up
and present ourselves because ofhow sensitive we are and what
they're gonna pick up.
Um assuming that we've left thehorse enough time to settle
within this new uh environment,it is about understanding what
(15:37):
you take in.
There is many people say leaveyour baggage at the gate.
I prefer to say be aware of yourbaggage and take it in with you.
Because the moment you startcutting things out of what you
would like to present, youyou're showing it something that
(15:57):
is not authentic.
The horse will be fully awarethat you are hiding something,
you've left something behind.
That creates the distrustbecause they horses are
constantly having theconversation with themselves, am
I safe?
Not that they're always in thatsort of tight flight um panic
(16:22):
mode, but am I safe?
They're only safe when they canfully trust the authenticity of
the being in their environment.
So make sure that when you'returning up, you're turning up
with all your imperfections thatyou're aware of them.
And by being aware of them, itmeans that when you start
feeling tense, you can take abreath and lower your shoulders,
(16:46):
you can re-ground, you can umhave that centering.
You can offer the horse an openheart.
Then they begin to.
SPEAKER_00 (16:56):
I love that.
Offer the horse an open heart.
That is that's a beautifulvisual too.
SPEAKER_02 (17:02):
Thank you.
And let the horse be curious.
Because what we tend to do whenwe're feeling tense and unsure,
and often we're unsure when anew horse comes into our um
circle because you don't knowthem, you don't know their
reactions.
We shut them down and we stopthem being curious because we
(17:26):
are looking for something still.
Let them move.
I mean, movement for horses issuch an important part of their
well-being, their mentalwell-being, as part of the
physical, you know, you need tomove and do their do their steps
if you like.
When a horse is anxious, theyneed to move.
If not, they're going to flight,so they're going to do a big
(17:48):
movement, or they're going toflight internally.
And that's when you start to geta much deeper shutdown.
So allow them to be curious.
Allow yourself time.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
Which is different than like um different from the
theory of, you know, well, movehis feet, move his feet, like
push him around, move his feet.
Completely different thing,because then you're then they're
thinking about you chasing them,moving their feet, and they're
not at all relaxing.
Um, when I'm working with myyoung horses, um, they'll when
we're walking, and the one willstop.
(18:22):
And and people would say, Oh,she's being stubborn, she's
planting, she's, you know, youget after her, and I'm like, no,
she's thinking.
Give her a moment to get taken.
And I had to learn this.
This is all new for me too,because this is in the last few
years that I'm learning fromwonderful people like you.
So let her think.
And she looks around, thinks,takes a breath, and then I say,
Walk on.
(18:42):
And she goes, absolutely.
And like, I'll climb a tree withyou.
You know, I mean, I absolutelylove her that way.
Now, a different horse that isolder that had different,
because I get this one as ayearling, and she was one of the
feral Morgans from Montana.
Um, the other one that cameolder and had more human
experience, but wasn'tnecessarily positive human
experience.
She's six now, and um, I'mstill, I feel afraid of her
(19:06):
still because she can bereactive, right?
Now that's my issue.
But then I realize it, Irecognize it, and I say, Rita,
I'm still a little scared ofyou.
I'm trying to like be, you know,whatever.
But when my trainer comes, whois uh I've had her on my podcast
and she uh does liberty work andand it's beautiful relationships
with horses, you know, the wayI'm trying to learn to be
better.
(19:26):
She gets up with Rita and Ritagoes, Oh, thank God you're here.
Oh, I can finally feel feel safeand relaxed, and I can do these
things because you are 100% you,you know, to to this trainer.
And I love watching them.
I just not there yet with her,you know, just this one.
The other one, I'm like, we're100%, we're together, we're you
know, I feel great with her.
(19:47):
So it's just I'm working on it.
It's not the horse.
SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
Yeah, well, she senses it, she senses that that
it that insecurity.
And the herd only functions whenthey're all they know what they
are best at and they know whatthey're doing, and that the
whole herd can, when necessary,work as one.
When there is a member of theherd that isn't part of that,
(20:11):
and this is I think when you getyou also see this when you
introduce new horses to herds,and you have to give them time
to settle and find that onenessagain.
That's when there is imbalance.
And I would suggest that maybethat is what she's feeling is
that okay, this energy isimbalanced for me, so therefore
(20:32):
I cannot rely on it.
And what I do like what you justsaid is that you you you talk to
do you you talk to her and yousay, you know, I'm s I'm a
little bit um still unsure aboutthis situation, still unsure
about you.
Because that's really powerful,because a lot of people say you
(20:52):
shouldn't be talking aroundhorses because they don't
understand your words.
Of course they don't they theyfeel it.
Yes, yes.
They don't understand the actualword, but the energy you give
them.
That's what they read.
And then they start giving youmore space to evolve within
that.
And once they've given you thatspace, it's only a matter of
(21:13):
time before you become the one.
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
And you also talk about um what other trainers
have talked about too, is calledmatch with what they refer to as
matching steps.
So when you're walking, you'rematching their energy and
they're kind of wandering, andyou're just you know walking
with them, matching that likeherds do, horses do that with
each other.
If you watch them, they'll getin sync with each other.
How does that benefit yourrelationship?
SPEAKER_02 (21:39):
It may it well, it's just two things.
I like to call it synchronizingbecause it's not just about the
step, because if we're we arestanding and having a moment,
then we can synchronize breath,we can synchronize posture, we
can synchronize energy.
So it's not just a case ofwalking because I try not to
make it so rigid because peoplejust then concentrate on their
(22:03):
feet.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
Guilty because you're like, Oh, I'm not really
quite keeping up, and then youknow, and then I get anxious,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (22:09):
Exactly, and that anxiety creates the bigger rift.
So, right, yes, it's nice tomatch and be in sync, and when
the more you practice it, themore you realize you're doing
it.
If you people that go away andand start videoing themselves,
they'll send me videos and say,Oh my god, look, we're matching
steps, we're perfectly in sync.
I didn't even think I was, Iwasn't practicing that because
(22:31):
you just get into rhythm.
It keeps you there in themoment, it keeps you um
connected in a way that there isum this sort of invisible ribbon
between the two of you, and whatthey feel is that security of if
(22:53):
I turn right, she's going tocome with me.
What's interesting is when wepractice this enough is that
when we turn left, they comewith you.
They will find the sink withyou.
That is that is the bestfeeling.
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
It is um mine are mine have uh 24-7 pasture and
forage and friends and nobody'sin stalls or anything like that.
And so when I go out in thepaddock, the the youngster that
I'm met, I have nine horsesright now, but they're all
Morgans.
Um, and they're all old styleMorgans, so similar in body type
to your Mustangs.
(23:30):
And uh, you know, Morgans can becompared to Iberian horses as
far as the old style Morgans,you know, with the way they
move.
And and I I do love the Spanishhorses in general.
Anyway, she follows me aroundthe paddock.
It's like the best feelingbecause it's like I'm gonna go
over, I don't have to even talkto her.
She just finds me and we justwalk around and we do our things
(23:52):
and da da da.
And then the other one comes,and pretty soon I've got four or
five of them, and it's thiswonderful energy of like
nobody's got a halter, nobodyhas a lead, they just want, and
I'm not feeding them, so it'snot about like you're gonna feed
me this minute, you know.
Um, it's just we want to be withyou.
And um, my son who comes andhe's um um, you know, in his 30s
and he comes and takes care ofthe farm when we travel, and he
(24:15):
goes out there with his guitarand he sits in a chair and he
plays the guitar, and all nineof the horses, he's uh and he
doesn't even ride anymore, butthey stand there and he just
that's his piece.
And they, you know, the horsesseem to really like it.
Nobody gets fighting, nobody,you know, they just stand there.
It's just the funniest thing.
Um, and I find that that's greattherapy for him, of course.
(24:37):
Horses are great therapy for allof us, but yeah, so I do love
that that magic in a sense whenthey like really want to be with
you.
You know, it's not about thistime, I'm gonna do this and
you're gonna comply andda-da-da-da.
It's just we're gonna do thistogether.
So tell us about how you takeyour horses for a walk.
This and then two differentways, like people who have their
(24:59):
own area, their own land, that'sone thing.
But what about when you'reboarding and you want to take
your horse for a walk or yourtwo horses for a walk?
How do you how do you learn todo that without you know it is
difficult?
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
It is difficult.
I mean, for for us here, ofcourse, it's it's easy.
We live uh very remotely, and umif I go out uh with one, the
others will follow.
Um what we do have to be carefulwith here is obviously the
stallions and the mess, becauseyou know, for obvious reasons.
(25:33):
Um but and like you, it's anamazing feeling because they
just wander off, and I have Ihave a recall because they do
get out of sight, um, and theydo come back and it and it's
wonderful.
And I the other thing is here wehave not it's not my herd, but I
uh volunteer with an agro herdwhere they um move from from
(25:58):
farm to farm, from place toplace, um, with a regenerative
farming method.
So they are clearing land,fertilizing land, and then they
move to another area.
And these can be in quite a lotlong distance.
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
Um interesting.
I don't think I don't think I'veheard of that over here.
SPEAKER_02 (26:17):
Yeah, and we and we there's the caretaker of the
herd, the principal caretaker,and then I go and volunteer as
one of the outriders, and thenwe're there, and there's all
these horses just runningaround, but in in sync, in
rhythm, following, and then onewill shoot off and one will come
back, and um that's anincredible feeling because they
(26:41):
are just being the herd, theyare just following the the the
caretaker who is uh um ridingout, and then I'm sweeping
behind.
Uh it is just a really, really,really beautiful feeling.
Um when you're boarding that itis hard because there's so many
regulations and um safety issuesthat you have to comply to.
(27:06):
But even a short walk, it's notabout the steps you take, it's
about the moments that youspend.
It's about the time that youbreathe with them.
It is about the rhythm of thelife that you live with them.
Horses love the rhythm.
(27:27):
The moment that they are inrhythm, they are in a sense of a
state of calm.
The only times horses live outof rhythm is when they're
fighting or when they'refrightened.
Or play.
Play is slightly differentbecause obviously that's a fun
thing.
But if you watch your horses,they live a life of rhythm, they
(27:48):
walk in rhythm, they graze inrhythm, they breathe in rhythm,
they trot in rhythm, they movein rhythm.
And that goes back to also beingin sync with them because you're
showing and sharing that withthem.
It's just another way of being asafe space for them.
So it's difficult to talk aboutboarding facilities without
(28:12):
actually seeing what they've gotuh and walking out.
So you can have that sort ofsame feeling with them by just
spending time.
SPEAKER_00 (28:20):
Right.
But the key the key would be isis spending undemanding time.
SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's not um it's it's aboutquality as well as opposed to
quantity, which is a reallycliched thing to say, but for
our horses it is so true.
And consistency, not routine.
Routine controls their mind.
(28:47):
And when I what I mean byroutine is so, for example,
let's say you feed your horsesat five o'clock every day, so by
five past five they're anxious.
Because there is no ability orno room for them to feel the
flexibility in the relationship.
Consistency is okay, it doesn'treally matter what time it is
(29:11):
because I know she'll turn up.
And when you offer them thatconsistency within a
non-demanding conversation, soyou're not asking anything of
them, they are l liable to giveyou a lot more time and a lot
more of their personal energy inthat moment.
They're gonna hang out with youmore emotionally, mentally, and
(29:34):
also.
SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
Oh, we were talking about where to find your book,
and you said it's available onAmazon and on the on your
website, which we will put itlinks in the uh show notes and
stuff so people can find it.
You also had an ebook, a freeebook online, which I thought
was very generous, and that's umkind of how I uh I think I found
you on Facebook to begin with.
Yeah.
And then went and looked at thatand I went, Oh, I gotta talk to
(29:59):
her.
So So that's good.
Let's talk about your coursesthat you do.
SPEAKER_02 (30:03):
Okay, so um I have um a five step program which is
based all around rewilding.
Rewild coaching.
And it builds um we spend fouror five weeks in each of the
steps building, um going deeperinto um paralleling I think both
(30:26):
the science and the energy andthe mystery of how we can become
better people and better horsepeople.
Um it's really about how we cantap into our own abilities to
(30:47):
understand, which I know Irepeat a lot, but it really is
so so important.
And that takes us all the waythrough the senses, emotional
resilience, all about how we canhave better understanding.
There is also a course that I docalled The Power of Touch.
(31:08):
One thing that I've learned overthe years is just how important
touches to our horses.
We are very tactile beings, sowe end up touching our horses
before we do anything else.
Everything's about doing and alot of that is about touching.
And again, if you notice howhorses interact with each other,
(31:29):
apart from when they're groomingor when they're in play or
having a physical interaction,that is rare.
85% of the time they're justclose.
They are not touching, they'rejust holding space for each
other.
The comfort and the securitythey find is not through the
(31:50):
touch, it's through thatconsistency and that rhythm that
we were talking about.
And one of the things that wehave done to our horses, to our
domestic horses, as we havediluted them, is disconnect
their mind from their bodiesbecause we don't allow that
(32:11):
conversation to follow through.
We don't allow that loop ofinformation to complete.
We go and halter our horseswithout thinking about what that
haltering means or feels like tothat horse in that moment.
We saddle our horses withoutthinking or preparing them with
that um weight on their backs.
(32:32):
It's a simple, really simpleexercise that I do and it's and
it changes people's perceptionsenormously.
And that is I ask them to holdtheir earlobe with one with uh
one of their hands and put alittle bit of pressure on it not
enough to hurt, but just alittle bit of pressure, and then
let go and see how your mind hasconnected to our earlobe, and
(32:56):
that you can still feel thesensation in that earlobe, but
you're no longer touching it.
And that connection of mind andbody is so important to our
horses to say, This is where I'mcoming, this is what I'm doing,
this is where I would like tobe.
But within a dialogue ofconnecting their mental capacity
(33:18):
to understand with the actualphysical actions that we want to
do.
It's just a polite way ofsaying, Do you mind?
As opposed to I'm just doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
Well, that's wonderful.
Um I had uh some visitors uh acouple days ago.
There was five children, andthey probably range from the age
of six to maybe 11, somethinglike that.
Uh siblings, and they keeplovely children, and they all
wanted to ride a horse.
And um, we just built a niceindoor arena so we're able to
have a safe environment.
(33:53):
And I have just an angel of ahorse, an older horse that loves
children and stuff.
But the best part, the most funwas um, oh it was just a little
circle.
I mean, it wasn't like ridinglessons or anything like that,
but was teaching them, helpingthem understand that we're gonna
ask this horse.
Like when they got close, firstof all, they had to ask
permission from the horse, canwe reach out and touch you?
(34:14):
And the horse was like, Yes,please, I like your attention.
Here's how we scratch them,here's how we brush them.
And this horse thrived on thiskind of loveliness.
Um, and then uh we saddled herup and I showed them how
carefully we saddled her up.
We're showing her the saddlepad, we're gonna put the saddle
pad on now.
Thank you, April.
We're that's her name, April.
We're gonna put the saddle onnow, you know, and we're gonna
slowly you know tighten thegirds and we're gonna talk to
(34:36):
her the whole process.
And they were so like spongesbecause they're just like eating
this stuff.
It was fun.
And then when they get to herand they're on, because she's
taller and they're small,they're standing on the mounting
block and I and they want tolike get right on.
And I said, Oh no, no, standhere.
First of all, we're gonna take anice breath and we explain how
the breathing gets to them.
I said, because if you'reanxious, she feels that and we
don't want her to be happy.
(34:57):
And then we're gonna say, Do youmind?
We're gonna get on you now, youknow.
And uh and they were like, theythought that was wonderful.
They'd scratch her neck and say,I'm gonna get on you, I'm gonna
ride you, because that helpedthem process what they're gonna
do next.
And then that their body wasprepared, you know, and then
they got on and we just stoodthere and I said, I want, you
know, just take a breath.
And then, like when we walked,the smile on their face, and the
(35:20):
and the horse was probablysmiling too.
I mean, I can feel how happy sheis to just follow in a circle,
and they all got their littlerides, and then I said, I'll
tell her thank you.
And I was just trying to showrespect for this other sentient,
you know, living creature, whichI want all my animals to feel
that way.
And there's a lot of pushback onwhat you're trying to do and
(35:41):
what other people are trying todo to get us to understand our
horses better.
Some people feel that this wholeapproach is like silly waste of
time, you're gonna have thesebad-mannered horses, you know,
um, just a completely different,you know.
And of course, we need to besafe around our horses and they
need they need to have aperception of where our body is
and where their body is and howwe don't collide, you know, and
(36:02):
these are all things to work on.
But how do you um how do youkind of um encourage thinking
that this is a living, breathingthing that we need to be in
agreement with as opposed toit's a machine, we can just get
out like a motorbike?
SPEAKER_02 (36:16):
Um, I think it's important to understand that
their ability to have thisconversation with us when we are
asking instead of demanding hasan energy to it that helps them
understand that you're there tocollaborate.
(36:39):
The collaboration as opposed tocompliance doesn't look that
different to some people, but toto some of us it's huge.
It's absolutely huge.
And I think I think we arefearful of I think there's two
camps, there's two camps becausethose that are fearful that they
(37:04):
will lose their desire, so theywill not be able to achieve
their goal as a human being andactually ride.
If they follow this path,because I had I get this
question a lot, yes, Rachel, butif I follow this, if I go down
this horsemanship from natureand follow the the thinking of
the horse, etc., does that meanI can't ride?
(37:26):
Does that mean I won't be ableto do the things I want to do as
a human being?
And to that I always say, no,because it's not the doing, it's
how you do it, it's how youarrive, it's how you approach
it.
And one key thing, a verypractical thing, is that not all
of us are you're lucky, I'mlucky, but most people don't
(37:48):
have the space that their horsesneed to move, to get their
physical movement in.
And sometimes riding in theright way safely can actually be
beneficial because a horse getsto move, they get to get to use
their body.
SPEAKER_01 (38:04):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (38:05):
And on the other side of that is the
relinquishing of boundaries andthey get fearful that they are
gonna have unsafe horses, pushyhorses, and horses that are
going to um create problems,particularly if they're in a
boarding situation.
Because that is difficult.
(38:26):
There's nothing wrong withboundaries if they are
boundaries that are approachedwith awareness.
Boundaries can be soft when weunderstand them.
The key thing is if our horsesare living a life where they're
always asking the same question,Am I safe?
We also have that same right tolive our lives with the same, am
(38:50):
I safe?
So when you get around horses,they are massive.
They can do a lot of damage,absolutely.
But by approaching them withawareness, with soft boundaries,
but still boundaries, you canstill have a relationship with a
horse, you can still be there inin collaboration, you can still
ask for willingness, but stillhave a relationship where as
(39:13):
human beings, our domestichorses are part of our lives and
and we get to do what we wewould like to do.
I mean, I ride my horses.
And yes, I ride bitless andbarefoot and and um in a way
that is always through choice,through Charlie, you know, to
(39:33):
what where do you want to gotoday, Charlie?
What do you want to do today,champ, or whatever.
Um but it's important to realizethat that boundaries don't have
to be harsh, it don't it doesn'thave to be force through
boundary, it can be s a softexplanation through boundary.
Um and I think it's I thinkthat's an important point to put
(39:57):
out there because like I say, Iget so many people concerned
about yeah, but I'm not gonna beable to do what I want to do and
I'm gonna get judged by theother people around me because
I'm not going to be progressingand and we all you know the
human um how we you know the thehuman you're gonna have to edit
(40:20):
this bit out, but um our desireto always progress, to always
move forward is so strongbecause we're in competition.
If we're not in competition withsomebody else, we're in
competition with ourselves.
And it can be really stiflingand it's it's a destroyer of
relationships in the end.
(40:42):
But it's important to understandthat if we give it a go, you
will um I mean, this way ofbeing is a perfect example of
the tortoise of the hair becausewhat you get is a foundation,
what you get is a relationship,and what you get is exactly like
(41:02):
what you're experiencing withyour horses is that willingness
for them to say, Okay, let'sgive it a go, because I really
trust this relationship becausethey know if they're not feeling
okay, you're gonna listen.
SPEAKER_00 (41:18):
And that's yeah, with exactly with my young
horse.
Um, they're just four years oldnow.
When I try to put her back afterwe've gone for a walk or we've
done some stuff, you know,walking around the farm.
I'm not she's not been sat backyet because she's just four and
I'm careful with her growing.
But anyway, um, getting closerto short periods of being back,
(41:38):
uh, she doesn't want to go backinto the barn or the pasture,
the paddock.
She doesn't want to go, shewants to keep playing the game.
It's like, we're having so muchfun.
Why are you gonna put me back?
I don't want to go back.
Even that's where her friendsare, that's where the food is,
the pasture.
She's like, I really enjoy ourtime together.
And of course, that's why I'mmadly in love with her to have a
horse that's so connected andwants to be with me.
(41:58):
I mean, that's a gift, and it'sso much fun.
SPEAKER_02 (42:00):
Absolutely.
I've got my youngster is nowfour and a couple of months, and
again, like you, he's not beendoing anything.
I always say he's been colouringoutside the lines.
We are now slowly colouringinside the lines.
We're having a few more formalconversations.
So he has had a bare back pad,very soft bareback pad on him.
SPEAKER_00 (42:21):
Exactly, same principle.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (42:23):
And um what is amazing is I showed it to him,
he sniffed it.
He smells of a million horsesbecause it's what a tool I do I
use a lot.
Um and we went through the wholeconversation of showing, of
feeling, of you know, connectingthe mind to the body, connecting
the mind to the items,connecting the mind.
He's doing all thoseconversations, placing it on his
(42:46):
back, nothing, because he truststhe moment and he knows that
okay, this feels okay.
Did up the did up the cinch,nothing.
There's no reaction whatsoever.
And I had a friend here, and shegoes, Oh my god, that was
boring.
No, that was amazing.
That was amazing, and he's socomfortable with this bare back
(43:08):
pad.
Is the other day we went um fora walk, so that's my you know,
the the I have this principle ofdoing familiar things in
familiar spaces, and then doingfamiliar things in not familiar
spaces because it gives you anindication where your baseline
is.
So now we're going for walkswith this bareback pad.
(43:30):
So he knows the walk, that'sfamiliar, and he knows the
bareback pad, that's familiar.
Now we're putting the twotogether.
So now the bareback pad in thisfamiliar place, but that's
unfamiliar, but you can connectthe two as being a good
experience, and so there is noreaction.
So he's just responding to theconversation.
He's so cool with it, he's solike glassé with it.
(43:50):
I put I did take him back andput him back and took the holter
off, you know, and gave him ascratch, turned my back and
went, oh no, I've left it, I'dleft it on him.
Because he was just like, Oh,this is cool.
SPEAKER_00 (44:05):
Right.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that feeling.
Um, the same horse I was talkingabout, the young one, the young
one, her name is Tess.
Um, last Saturday I had somefriends over.
We were working horses in thearena, just doing groundwork,
um, the youngsters and stuff.
And so we had taken a saddleblanket and a soft rope, just
getting her, you know, and wewere carefully getting her used
to the feeling of just havingthe soft rope under her belly.
(44:28):
And so we had tied it on umgently, and we were just leading
her around, right?
Well, I'm leading her, notwatching her body language close
enough.
She lays down to roll, okay?
And I went, Well, I'm not gonnafight you, it's my fault for
not, you know, not payingattention to keeping your head
up.
So she rolls, and of course theblanket comes undone and kind of
floppily goes to her side andunder her belly.
(44:49):
And and uh I'm you know, I'mlike, oh, this is not good.
She's gonna blow up.
This is scary to feel all thisweird stuff.
She stood up and she looked atme and went like, oh dear.
I was able to just walk over andtake it.
I was just going, I remember whyI love you so much.
Because a different horse, if asaddle had slipped because I
wasn't doing things properly, Imean, there would have been some
(45:12):
fireworks, you know, because Ididn't know any better.
But this horse is like, well,you're not gonna hurt me.
So whatever silly things happen,probably can handle it.
Because it wasn't causing herpain, it was just a weird
sensation, you know.
I was just so grateful to taughtmyself, okay, don't do it that
way again.
You know, let's be morepractical.
But I mean, I just I love thisrelationship we've built.
(45:32):
And it's only because over thelast few years I've really
changed how I thought abouthorses, and it has helped me so,
so much.
And I just hope that otherpeople are open to the idea that
it can be different.
SPEAKER_02 (45:43):
Yeah.
I always say you have to have acurious mind and that open heart
and sensible footwork.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
There you go, that open heart again.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
Do anything that you that you please as a partnership
with us.
SPEAKER_00 (45:56):
Well, this has been a delightful conversation,
Rachel.
Um, I really appreciate youtaking the time.
I um do you uh I'm gonna you'regonna we'll get all of your
links, but people can find youon Facebook too.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (46:08):
Uh Rewild Your Horse Spirit, uh Rachel Winchester.
If you if you just search RachelWinchester, both my personal
page and my um uh business page,and also the Winchester Ranch
Mustang.
And I have a group called theRewilding Circle, um, which is
different to the page, it's ait's a little bit more intimate,
and it is just a the sharingspace.
(46:30):
And I do go on there most weeksum with a live and a talk and
run through a topic, and there'sa few um actual um PDFs and and
and free resources in there aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (46:44):
Lovely.
Okay.
Well, it sounds like you're justa uh wonderful resource, and uh
we're gonna have to have anotherpodcast all about Spanish
Mustang sometime.
Um this it's so interesting tome how they got back to Spain
and what does people what dopeople in Spain feel about it?
I mean, you know, is thatsomething that interests them?
So um that part's really coolthat you're preserving something
(47:06):
so special.
Uh so that's that's reallygreat.
SPEAKER_02 (47:09):
It would be my pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (47:11):
Okay.
Well, thank you so much, Rachel.
I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02 (47:15):
You're welcome.
It's been uh it's been a greatopportunity.
Thank you for having me.
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
I'm an animal trainer andphotographer, and I'd like to
welcome you to the EmpatheticTrainer.
Hello everyone and welcome backto the Empathetic Trainer
Podcast.
Today's guest is RachelWinchaser.
Rachel is the author ofPrinciples of Rewilding,
(00:34):
Horsemanship from Nature, ajourney into core beliefs and
natural wisdom.
She is the steward of WinchesterRanch in Spain, where she cares
for a rare herd of SpanishMustangs.
Her work is rooted in the ideaof rewilding, not as a method or
a quick fix, but as a way ofreturning to presence,
sensitivity, and awareness inthe horse-human relationship.
Well, I am all about this,Rachel.
(00:56):
I am all about this.
Learning from my own half-feraluh uh Morgan horses that I got
from a ranch in Montana.
They they they have taught me alot about being present.
And and boy, do they tell you ifyou're not.
So we want to learn all aboutthat.
Um I want to show everyone, ofcourse, it's blurry because of
(01:17):
the way the camera works.
Let's see if we can get it inthere.
Um, Rachel's book.
It's called The Principles ofRewilding.
Um, it's a great read.
So much to unpack in this book,Rachel.
Uh so we're we're grateful.
Um, I've already got like littlesticky notes with my favorite
quotes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
Brilliant.
So I think that is my perfectview of the book.
Dirty, scribbled on, stickynotes.
It's my vision that it becomesother people, it's not mine
anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Well, that's great.
Well, what I want to talk aboutfirst is like tell us about you.
How did you get into this andtell us where you are?
Um, I'm here in rural Wisconsin,so um we're and you're across
the co you know, across theocean from us.
Uh so appreciate uh the timedifference.
And uh so tell us about whereyou where you are and how you
got started and how this cameabout, what you're doing right
(02:08):
now.
SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
Okay, so uh we are in rural Spain.
We're about two and a half hourssouth of Barcelona on the east
coast, but in the mountains, inthe hills.
We live in deep forest.
Um I moved to Spain when I wasabout 18, 19 years old.
It was a bit on a bit of a whim.
(02:31):
And I I you know I'm convincedthat I was a Spaniard in a
different life because I feel soat home on in this country and
on this land.
Um and I think it because ittakes me back to my childhood
and how I grew up, which wasvery um well, probably feral,
(02:53):
most people would have c wouldhave called it.
Um, you know, we live off grid.
And the reason specifically whywe're in this region, in this
area, is because of the SpanishMustangs, because this is one of
their original environments umthat they would have evolved in.
Um because the Spanish Mustangwas lost to Spain about 300
(03:20):
years ago.
So the herd that we have here isthe only herd in Spain, it's a
dream to reintroduce them.
They're not wild, they'redomestic but undiluted is is how
I like to describe them becausethey are so close to their
nature, they're so close tohorse.
They haven't been through anybreeding program that has
reduced them to um buttons andpush and go and and that loss of
(03:46):
self.
Um but yeah, it is um and thisthe environment that we have
here, the the the forage, theplants are all part of how they
would have it would haveevolved, like I say.
So the just a really briefhistory because otherwise I
(04:07):
could I could tell a podcastjust on this on its own.
Um in these are the horses thatthe conquestors sent to America
to discover America.
And eventually they were, like Isay, they were lost to Spain,
and they were also becoming veryum lost in America until
(04:27):
obviously that they were adoptedby a lot of the tribes and they
became the Indian ponies.
And I fell in love with thestory, the romantic uh romantic
side of it, and Charlie, who isthe heart and soul of this ranch
and why we're here, why it allbegan this this whole um mission
(04:51):
really arrived in my life thetime that I needed him.
So although my life has beenquite eclectic, I've always come
back for horses and I've alwaysbeen healed by horses.
They've always been very healingfor me.
And there was a moment in mylife that I was um I was asked
(05:12):
by my partner, what's gonna getyou out of this deep hole?
It's due to bereavement andgrief, but again, that's a big
story.
And I said, I need a I need toget near horses because it was a
very rare moment in my life thatI I had no horses in my personal
horses in my life.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
I completely understand that.
Which is something similar,totally good.
SPEAKER_02 (05:35):
Ah, okay.
And so I started looking and umI was looking for the Spanish
horses.
I had Spanish horses before, andI loved the Spanish horses and
how they how they think.
And then I came across theSpanish Mustang, and it just
grew from there.
And yeah, the 10-year-old girlin me, little girl in me,
decided I know what I'm gonnado.
(05:55):
I'm gonna set up a ranch and setup a reservation and I'm gonna
bring them back to Spain.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
That's amazing.
Um, we're we're lucky that nearme, maybe 10 miles away, is a
gal who has um tiger mustangs,which are Spanish Mustangs from
the Kyger range.
And she has um some studs andsome mares, and she's carefully
breeding and they are and sheuses a very uh positive,
wonderful relationship-basedtraining with them.
(06:21):
And uh just just watching theirrelationship because there's not
a lot of it's it's all anagreement, and it's it's
beautiful.
And um, so we're gonna have heras a pod guest guest sometime.
But I I've seen them, at leastthe ones here in America, I've
seen them in person.
And uh the bone, the structure,the hooves, personality, um,
wow, you know, just absolutelylove them.
SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
But I think um, you know, I felt like I knew quite a
lot about horses.
I had my first pony at three, II grew up with them, they were
part of the family tradition, ishow we how we lived.
Um, but these guys, which isprobably what she's also
experiencing, you cannot do itany other way but through
(07:06):
relationships.
They are so clear about whatthey need as a horse, and the
change in me with them and how Iapproach the other horses in my
care, which you know, myclients' horses has made such a
big difference, and reallythat's where the book came from.
(07:27):
I I say that I you know, I wrotethe book, though the words are
mine on paper, but it's onlythrough me and it is from them
because a shift in the in themindset of how how the nature,
the nature of us, if we canunderstand our nature and
understand our horses' natureand what we share and what we
(07:49):
don't share and respect that, beaware of that, these guys have
certainly taught me that lesson.
In fact, our foundation stallionhere came from America.
We actually um brought him over.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
Well that's so this is so interesting that they've
come full circle.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
So that that part's pretty cool.
So how many Spanish Mustangs doyou think are in Spain right
now?
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
I can tell you there's five, and they're all
mine.
They're all here at the ranch.
That's it.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
We had our first baby uh a fewyears ago.
Um and uh yeah, so cool.
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Well, I want to talk about one of the quotes very
early in the book, but it reallystruck me.
And I want and hopefully you canexplain better to us.
Um, it says, Rewilding is notabout taming the horse, it is
about untaming ourselves.
And I just thought that wasreally deep.
Um we have a 40-acre farm, smallfarm here in Wisconsin.
(08:54):
As you can see behind me, it'sopen and rolling hills,
whatever.
When people come from the citiesto visit, because it's you know
metro areas, they go like this.
Because you can feel the land.
Just starting with the landhelps them breathe because
people, I think, the the moremechanized and digital and crazy
(09:14):
the world gets, the more peoplecrave uh connection to nature.
And I feel that horses are oneof the best connections that we
can get from something beyondourselves, uh, that is that is
like nature in its form, becausehey, they're nice to be around.
They're not gonna hurt us like abear could.
Uh they're not gonna run awaylike deer will, usually, right?
(09:37):
You can interact with thiscreature that is purely 100%
present there in the world.
He's got no pretense, he's justdoing horse things.
He doesn't know tomorrow.
So um when they finally come,when they start to talk to the
sheep and they talk to thehorses, and they, you know, they
just you can see it shed.
They're just shedding, you know.
So let's let's talk about whatyou mean by rewilding and how
(10:00):
that, you know, kind of give meyour low-down on that.
SPEAKER_02 (10:03):
Well, for me, rewilding is about remembering,
it's about remembering who weare as a being first, um, and
shedding the domestic side ofour daily lives, the pressure
that we put ourselves under.
(10:26):
By remembering what we know deepdown that we have forgotten that
we are able to connect withourselves and that desire to
connect with our horses or toconnect with nature is much more
difficult if we are not able toconnect with ourselves.
(10:49):
Awareness of self, awareness ofwho we are as a being,
imperfections and all, becauseit's important to understand
that the seeking of perfectionin the connection, whether it is
with another person, with ahorse, or with the environment,
is something that is driven bythe um by the the how can I say
(11:18):
the unrealness of our dailylives.
So for me it's about rememberingthat we were once, our true
nature, our true nature isn'ttake.
It is wild.
We are beings.
And if we can understand that,if we can understand um how
(11:40):
sensitive sensitive and howsensory other beings are,
including the environment, wecan start shedding away some of
those layers and get deeper intothe understanding that we can
also be sensitive.
I don't believe that we can beas sensitive as a horse, for
(12:02):
example.
They the the sensory input thatthey the the way they take in
the world is obviously differentin terms of uh both
scientifically, emotionally.
Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
Yeah, the more we learn about how horses think in
their brain, and I didn't knowtheir sense of smell was as
good, if not better, than a dog.
Absolutely.
Couldn't figure out why my myferal mare would sniff me from
head to toe when I because Itrain animal actors, so when I
come home from the studio, Ismell like a whole bunch of
different dogs.
She would sniff me from head totoe, just taking in this
information.
(12:33):
And I'd never had a horse dothat, and I found out that that
had to do with her sense ofsmell and that she was kidding.
SPEAKER_02 (12:39):
Yeah, we we go for a lot of forage walks here, and
you can see them tracking, andit's amazing what they find and
what they what they arefollowing, and it's been also
that's been a really interestingum conversation to have with the
youngster because it's been partof his education.
(13:00):
Because if we take the oldhorses out, they're gonna leave
their smell because obviouslythey have scent pads in their in
their hooves and and they leavetheir their poop, etc.
And his ability to understand anew environment based on the
smells of his companions hasbeen amazing.
That whole witnessing isn't justvisual for a horse, witnessing
(13:24):
is also through all the sensesthat they carry.
And that's what I mean again bybeing sensitive.
And if we can learn to expandour perception, expand our
perception of both ourselves andthe environment that we're in,
we get back to a slightly lesstamed version of ourselves.
It's more about remembering it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Okay, so I have a question.
Then say there's a scenario,somebody um, you know, gets a
new horse and they bring it,they're we're gonna say that
it's home, so it's not a boardedsituation.
They can be with the horse, youknow, when they can.
Um and uh how do they start?
Because say this horse has beentrained and maybe could even be
a little bit shut down, one orthe other, either reactive or
(14:07):
shut down to um and kind ofmaybe so let's pretend this
particular horse is a doll inthe sense that he's been shut
down and he just goes, Okay,this is my fate.
I mean, there's not much sparkthere because I'm just gonna do
what they need.
You know, we've seen this.
Um so they get this horse home.
How do you suggest what would bepractical steps for them?
And I realize in a book we talkabout don't have an agenda,
(14:30):
don't have a, you know, it's nota schedule, you know, you're
gonna go in.
But like um, you talk aboutbreathing a lot, which I found
to be very, very important whenI'm working any kind of animal
um to to be matching theirbreathing and relaxing with
them.
And because horses don't knowwe're scared of them, you know,
like so that you know, yourlittle child or child gets on
there and they're like a littlebit nervous, you say, Let's take
(14:52):
a breath, let's just relax andlet's because he doesn't know
that you're scared of him.
So we can he's you know he'sgonna be scared too, which
likely have nice horses, but youknow what I mean?
Like they don't know we'rescared of them, so they get
anxious when we're anxious,right?
So, what would be yoursuggestion for a practical, you
know, or a a way to start,because it's a process.
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
The human being.
Any relationship with uh with ahorse starts with how we show up
and present ourselves because ofhow sensitive we are and what
they're gonna pick up.
Um assuming that we've left thehorse enough time to settle
within this new uh environment,it is about understanding what
(15:37):
you take in.
There is many people say leaveyour baggage at the gate.
I prefer to say be aware of yourbaggage and take it in with you.
Because the moment you startcutting things out of what you
would like to present, youyou're showing it something that
(15:57):
is not authentic.
The horse will be fully awarethat you are hiding something,
you've left something behind.
That creates the distrustbecause they horses are
constantly having theconversation with themselves, am
I safe?
Not that they're always in thatsort of tight flight um panic
(16:22):
mode, but am I safe?
They're only safe when they canfully trust the authenticity of
the being in their environment.
So make sure that when you'returning up, you're turning up
with all your imperfections thatyou're aware of them.
And by being aware of them, itmeans that when you start
feeling tense, you can take abreath and lower your shoulders,
(16:46):
you can re-ground, you can umhave that centering.
You can offer the horse an openheart.
Then they begin to.
SPEAKER_00 (16:56):
I love that.
Offer the horse an open heart.
That is that's a beautifulvisual too.
SPEAKER_02 (17:02):
Thank you.
And let the horse be curious.
Because what we tend to do whenwe're feeling tense and unsure,
and often we're unsure when anew horse comes into our um
circle because you don't knowthem, you don't know their
reactions.
We shut them down and we stopthem being curious because we
(17:26):
are looking for something still.
Let them move.
I mean, movement for horses issuch an important part of their
well-being, their mentalwell-being, as part of the
physical, you know, you need tomove and do their do their steps
if you like.
When a horse is anxious, theyneed to move.
If not, they're going to flight,so they're going to do a big
(17:48):
movement, or they're going toflight internally.
And that's when you start to geta much deeper shutdown.
So allow them to be curious.
Allow yourself time.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
Which is different than like um different from the
theory of, you know, well, movehis feet, move his feet, like
push him around, move his feet.
Completely different thing,because then you're then they're
thinking about you chasing them,moving their feet, and they're
not at all relaxing.
Um, when I'm working with myyoung horses, um, they'll when
we're walking, and the one willstop.
(18:22):
And and people would say, Oh,she's being stubborn, she's
planting, she's, you know, youget after her, and I'm like, no,
she's thinking.
Give her a moment to get taken.
And I had to learn this.
This is all new for me too,because this is in the last few
years that I'm learning fromwonderful people like you.
So let her think.
And she looks around, thinks,takes a breath, and then I say,
Walk on.
(18:42):
And she goes, absolutely.
And like, I'll climb a tree withyou.
You know, I mean, I absolutelylove her that way.
Now, a different horse that isolder that had different,
because I get this one as ayearling, and she was one of the
feral Morgans from Montana.
Um, the other one that cameolder and had more human
experience, but wasn'tnecessarily positive human
experience.
She's six now, and um, I'mstill, I feel afraid of her
(19:06):
still because she can bereactive, right?
Now that's my issue.
But then I realize it, Irecognize it, and I say, Rita,
I'm still a little scared ofyou.
I'm trying to like be, you know,whatever.
But when my trainer comes, whois uh I've had her on my podcast
and she uh does liberty work andand it's beautiful relationships
with horses, you know, the wayI'm trying to learn to be
better.
(19:26):
She gets up with Rita and Ritagoes, Oh, thank God you're here.
Oh, I can finally feel feel safeand relaxed, and I can do these
things because you are 100% you,you know, to to this trainer.
And I love watching them.
I just not there yet with her,you know, just this one.
The other one, I'm like, we're100%, we're together, we're you
know, I feel great with her.
(19:47):
So it's just I'm working on it.
It's not the horse.
SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
Yeah, well, she senses it, she senses that that
it that insecurity.
And the herd only functions whenthey're all they know what they
are best at and they know whatthey're doing, and that the
whole herd can, when necessary,work as one.
When there is a member of theherd that isn't part of that,
(20:11):
and this is I think when you getyou also see this when you
introduce new horses to herds,and you have to give them time
to settle and find that onenessagain.
That's when there is imbalance.
And I would suggest that maybethat is what she's feeling is
that okay, this energy isimbalanced for me, so therefore
(20:32):
I cannot rely on it.
And what I do like what you justsaid is that you you you talk to
do you you talk to her and yousay, you know, I'm s I'm a
little bit um still unsure aboutthis situation, still unsure
about you.
Because that's really powerful,because a lot of people say you
(20:52):
shouldn't be talking aroundhorses because they don't
understand your words.
Of course they don't they theyfeel it.
Yes, yes.
They don't understand the actualword, but the energy you give
them.
That's what they read.
And then they start giving youmore space to evolve within
that.
And once they've given you thatspace, it's only a matter of
(21:13):
time before you become the one.
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
And you also talk about um what other trainers
have talked about too, is calledmatch with what they refer to as
matching steps.
So when you're walking, you'rematching their energy and
they're kind of wandering, andyou're just you know walking
with them, matching that likeherds do, horses do that with
each other.
If you watch them, they'll getin sync with each other.
How does that benefit yourrelationship?
SPEAKER_02 (21:39):
It may it well, it's just two things.
I like to call it synchronizingbecause it's not just about the
step, because if we're we arestanding and having a moment,
then we can synchronize breath,we can synchronize posture, we
can synchronize energy.
So it's not just a case ofwalking because I try not to
make it so rigid because peoplejust then concentrate on their
(22:03):
feet.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
Guilty because you're like, Oh, I'm not really
quite keeping up, and then youknow, and then I get anxious,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (22:09):
Exactly, and that anxiety creates the bigger rift.
So, right, yes, it's nice tomatch and be in sync, and when
the more you practice it, themore you realize you're doing
it.
If you people that go away andand start videoing themselves,
they'll send me videos and say,Oh my god, look, we're matching
steps, we're perfectly in sync.
I didn't even think I was, Iwasn't practicing that because
(22:31):
you just get into rhythm.
It keeps you there in themoment, it keeps you um
connected in a way that there isum this sort of invisible ribbon
between the two of you, and whatthey feel is that security of if
(22:53):
I turn right, she's going tocome with me.
What's interesting is when wepractice this enough is that
when we turn left, they comewith you.
They will find the sink withyou.
That is that is the bestfeeling.
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
It is um mine are mine have uh 24-7 pasture and
forage and friends and nobody'sin stalls or anything like that.
And so when I go out in thepaddock, the the youngster that
I'm met, I have nine horsesright now, but they're all
Morgans.
Um, and they're all old styleMorgans, so similar in body type
to your Mustangs.
(23:30):
And uh, you know, Morgans can becompared to Iberian horses as
far as the old style Morgans,you know, with the way they
move.
And and I I do love the Spanishhorses in general.
Anyway, she follows me aroundthe paddock.
It's like the best feelingbecause it's like I'm gonna go
over, I don't have to even talkto her.
She just finds me and we justwalk around and we do our things
(23:52):
and da da da.
And then the other one comes,and pretty soon I've got four or
five of them, and it's thiswonderful energy of like
nobody's got a halter, nobodyhas a lead, they just want, and
I'm not feeding them, so it'snot about like you're gonna feed
me this minute, you know.
Um, it's just we want to be withyou.
And um, my son who comes andhe's um um, you know, in his 30s
and he comes and takes care ofthe farm when we travel, and he
(24:15):
goes out there with his guitarand he sits in a chair and he
plays the guitar, and all nineof the horses, he's uh and he
doesn't even ride anymore, butthey stand there and he just
that's his piece.
And they, you know, the horsesseem to really like it.
Nobody gets fighting, nobody,you know, they just stand there.
It's just the funniest thing.
Um, and I find that that's greattherapy for him, of course.
(24:37):
Horses are great therapy for allof us, but yeah, so I do love
that that magic in a sense whenthey like really want to be with
you.
You know, it's not about thistime, I'm gonna do this and
you're gonna comply andda-da-da-da.
It's just we're gonna do thistogether.
So tell us about how you takeyour horses for a walk.
This and then two differentways, like people who have their
(24:59):
own area, their own land, that'sone thing.
But what about when you'reboarding and you want to take
your horse for a walk or yourtwo horses for a walk?
How do you how do you learn todo that without you know it is
difficult?
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
It is difficult.
I mean, for for us here, ofcourse, it's it's easy.
We live uh very remotely, and umif I go out uh with one, the
others will follow.
Um what we do have to be carefulwith here is obviously the
stallions and the mess, becauseyou know, for obvious reasons.
(25:33):
Um but and like you, it's anamazing feeling because they
just wander off, and I have Ihave a recall because they do
get out of sight, um, and theydo come back and it and it's
wonderful.
And I the other thing is here wehave not it's not my herd, but I
uh volunteer with an agro herdwhere they um move from from
(25:58):
farm to farm, from place toplace, um, with a regenerative
farming method.
So they are clearing land,fertilizing land, and then they
move to another area.
And these can be in quite a lotlong distance.
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
Um interesting.
I don't think I don't think I'veheard of that over here.
SPEAKER_02 (26:17):
Yeah, and we and we there's the caretaker of the
herd, the principal caretaker,and then I go and volunteer as
one of the outriders, and thenwe're there, and there's all
these horses just runningaround, but in in sync, in
rhythm, following, and then onewill shoot off and one will come
back, and um that's anincredible feeling because they
(26:41):
are just being the herd, theyare just following the the the
caretaker who is uh um ridingout, and then I'm sweeping
behind.
Uh it is just a really, really,really beautiful feeling.
Um when you're boarding that itis hard because there's so many
regulations and um safety issuesthat you have to comply to.
(27:06):
But even a short walk, it's notabout the steps you take, it's
about the moments that youspend.
It's about the time that youbreathe with them.
It is about the rhythm of thelife that you live with them.
Horses love the rhythm.
(27:27):
The moment that they are inrhythm, they are in a sense of a
state of calm.
The only times horses live outof rhythm is when they're
fighting or when they'refrightened.
Or play.
Play is slightly differentbecause obviously that's a fun
thing.
But if you watch your horses,they live a life of rhythm, they
(27:48):
walk in rhythm, they graze inrhythm, they breathe in rhythm,
they trot in rhythm, they movein rhythm.
And that goes back to also beingin sync with them because you're
showing and sharing that withthem.
It's just another way of being asafe space for them.
So it's difficult to talk aboutboarding facilities without
(28:12):
actually seeing what they've gotuh and walking out.
So you can have that sort ofsame feeling with them by just
spending time.
SPEAKER_00 (28:20):
Right.
But the key the key would be isis spending undemanding time.
SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's not um it's it's aboutquality as well as opposed to
quantity, which is a reallycliched thing to say, but for
our horses it is so true.
And consistency, not routine.
Routine controls their mind.
(28:47):
And when I what I mean byroutine is so, for example,
let's say you feed your horsesat five o'clock every day, so by
five past five they're anxious.
Because there is no ability orno room for them to feel the
flexibility in the relationship.
Consistency is okay, it doesn'treally matter what time it is
(29:11):
because I know she'll turn up.
And when you offer them thatconsistency within a
non-demanding conversation, soyou're not asking anything of
them, they are l liable to giveyou a lot more time and a lot
more of their personal energy inthat moment.
They're gonna hang out with youmore emotionally, mentally, and
(29:34):
also.
SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
Oh, we were talking about where to find your book,
and you said it's available onAmazon and on the on your
website, which we will put itlinks in the uh show notes and
stuff so people can find it.
You also had an ebook, a freeebook online, which I thought
was very generous, and that's umkind of how I uh I think I found
you on Facebook to begin with.
Yeah.
And then went and looked at thatand I went, Oh, I gotta talk to
(29:59):
her.
So So that's good.
Let's talk about your coursesthat you do.
SPEAKER_02 (30:03):
Okay, so um I have um a five step program which is
based all around rewilding.
Rewild coaching.
And it builds um we spend fouror five weeks in each of the
steps building, um going deeperinto um paralleling I think both
(30:26):
the science and the energy andthe mystery of how we can become
better people and better horsepeople.
Um it's really about how we cantap into our own abilities to
(30:47):
understand, which I know Irepeat a lot, but it really is
so so important.
And that takes us all the waythrough the senses, emotional
resilience, all about how we canhave better understanding.
There is also a course that I docalled The Power of Touch.
(31:08):
One thing that I've learned overthe years is just how important
touches to our horses.
We are very tactile beings, sowe end up touching our horses
before we do anything else.
Everything's about doing and alot of that is about touching.
And again, if you notice howhorses interact with each other,
(31:29):
apart from when they're groomingor when they're in play or
having a physical interaction,that is rare.
85% of the time they're justclose.
They are not touching, they'rejust holding space for each
other.
The comfort and the securitythey find is not through the
(31:50):
touch, it's through thatconsistency and that rhythm that
we were talking about.
And one of the things that wehave done to our horses, to our
domestic horses, as we havediluted them, is disconnect
their mind from their bodiesbecause we don't allow that
(32:11):
conversation to follow through.
We don't allow that loop ofinformation to complete.
We go and halter our horseswithout thinking about what that
haltering means or feels like tothat horse in that moment.
We saddle our horses withoutthinking or preparing them with
that um weight on their backs.
(32:32):
It's a simple, really simpleexercise that I do and it's and
it changes people's perceptionsenormously.
And that is I ask them to holdtheir earlobe with one with uh
one of their hands and put alittle bit of pressure on it not
enough to hurt, but just alittle bit of pressure, and then
let go and see how your mind hasconnected to our earlobe, and
(32:56):
that you can still feel thesensation in that earlobe, but
you're no longer touching it.
And that connection of mind andbody is so important to our
horses to say, This is where I'mcoming, this is what I'm doing,
this is where I would like tobe.
But within a dialogue ofconnecting their mental capacity
(33:18):
to understand with the actualphysical actions that we want to
do.
It's just a polite way ofsaying, Do you mind?
As opposed to I'm just doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
Well, that's wonderful.
Um I had uh some visitors uh acouple days ago.
There was five children, andthey probably range from the age
of six to maybe 11, somethinglike that.
Uh siblings, and they keeplovely children, and they all
wanted to ride a horse.
And um, we just built a niceindoor arena so we're able to
have a safe environment.
(33:53):
And I have just an angel of ahorse, an older horse that loves
children and stuff.
But the best part, the most funwas um, oh it was just a little
circle.
I mean, it wasn't like ridinglessons or anything like that,
but was teaching them, helpingthem understand that we're gonna
ask this horse.
Like when they got close, firstof all, they had to ask
permission from the horse, canwe reach out and touch you?
(34:14):
And the horse was like, Yes,please, I like your attention.
Here's how we scratch them,here's how we brush them.
And this horse thrived on thiskind of loveliness.
Um, and then uh we saddled herup and I showed them how
carefully we saddled her up.
We're showing her the saddlepad, we're gonna put the saddle
pad on now.
Thank you, April.
We're that's her name, April.
We're gonna put the saddle onnow, you know, and we're gonna
slowly you know tighten thegirds and we're gonna talk to
(34:36):
her the whole process.
And they were so like spongesbecause they're just like eating
this stuff.
It was fun.
And then when they get to herand they're on, because she's
taller and they're small,they're standing on the mounting
block and I and they want tolike get right on.
And I said, Oh no, no, standhere.
First of all, we're gonna take anice breath and we explain how
the breathing gets to them.
I said, because if you'reanxious, she feels that and we
don't want her to be happy.
(34:57):
And then we're gonna say, Do youmind?
We're gonna get on you now, youknow.
And uh and they were like, theythought that was wonderful.
They'd scratch her neck and say,I'm gonna get on you, I'm gonna
ride you, because that helpedthem process what they're gonna
do next.
And then that their body wasprepared, you know, and then
they got on and we just stoodthere and I said, I want, you
know, just take a breath.
And then, like when we walked,the smile on their face, and the
(35:20):
and the horse was probablysmiling too.
I mean, I can feel how happy sheis to just follow in a circle,
and they all got their littlerides, and then I said, I'll
tell her thank you.
And I was just trying to showrespect for this other sentient,
you know, living creature, whichI want all my animals to feel
that way.
And there's a lot of pushback onwhat you're trying to do and
(35:41):
what other people are trying todo to get us to understand our
horses better.
Some people feel that this wholeapproach is like silly waste of
time, you're gonna have thesebad-mannered horses, you know,
um, just a completely different,you know.
And of course, we need to besafe around our horses and they
need they need to have aperception of where our body is
and where their body is and howwe don't collide, you know, and
(36:02):
these are all things to work on.
But how do you um how do youkind of um encourage thinking
that this is a living, breathingthing that we need to be in
agreement with as opposed toit's a machine, we can just get
out like a motorbike?
SPEAKER_02 (36:16):
Um, I think it's important to understand that
their ability to have thisconversation with us when we are
asking instead of demanding hasan energy to it that helps them
understand that you're there tocollaborate.
(36:39):
The collaboration as opposed tocompliance doesn't look that
different to some people, but toto some of us it's huge.
It's absolutely huge.
And I think I think we arefearful of I think there's two
camps, there's two camps becausethose that are fearful that they
(37:04):
will lose their desire, so theywill not be able to achieve
their goal as a human being andactually ride.
If they follow this path,because I had I get this
question a lot, yes, Rachel, butif I follow this, if I go down
this horsemanship from natureand follow the the thinking of
the horse, etc., does that meanI can't ride?
(37:26):
Does that mean I won't be ableto do the things I want to do as
a human being?
And to that I always say, no,because it's not the doing, it's
how you do it, it's how youarrive, it's how you approach
it.
And one key thing, a verypractical thing, is that not all
of us are you're lucky, I'mlucky, but most people don't
(37:48):
have the space that their horsesneed to move, to get their
physical movement in.
And sometimes riding in theright way safely can actually be
beneficial because a horse getsto move, they get to get to use
their body.
SPEAKER_01 (38:04):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (38:05):
And on the other side of that is the
relinquishing of boundaries andthey get fearful that they are
gonna have unsafe horses, pushyhorses, and horses that are
going to um create problems,particularly if they're in a
boarding situation.
Because that is difficult.
(38:26):
There's nothing wrong withboundaries if they are
boundaries that are approachedwith awareness.
Boundaries can be soft when weunderstand them.
The key thing is if our horsesare living a life where they're
always asking the same question,Am I safe?
We also have that same right tolive our lives with the same, am
(38:50):
I safe?
So when you get around horses,they are massive.
They can do a lot of damage,absolutely.
But by approaching them withawareness, with soft boundaries,
but still boundaries, you canstill have a relationship with a
horse, you can still be there inin collaboration, you can still
ask for willingness, but stillhave a relationship where as
(39:13):
human beings, our domestichorses are part of our lives and
and we get to do what we wewould like to do.
I mean, I ride my horses.
And yes, I ride bitless andbarefoot and and um in a way
that is always through choice,through Charlie, you know, to
(39:33):
what where do you want to gotoday, Charlie?
What do you want to do today,champ, or whatever.
Um but it's important to realizethat that boundaries don't have
to be harsh, it don't it doesn'thave to be force through
boundary, it can be s a softexplanation through boundary.
Um and I think it's I thinkthat's an important point to put
(39:57):
out there because like I say, Iget so many people concerned
about yeah, but I'm not gonna beable to do what I want to do and
I'm gonna get judged by theother people around me because
I'm not going to be progressingand and we all you know the
human um how we you know the thehuman you're gonna have to edit
(40:20):
this bit out, but um our desireto always progress, to always
move forward is so strongbecause we're in competition.
If we're not in competition withsomebody else, we're in
competition with ourselves.
And it can be really stiflingand it's it's a destroyer of
relationships in the end.
(40:42):
But it's important to understandthat if we give it a go, you
will um I mean, this way ofbeing is a perfect example of
the tortoise of the hair becausewhat you get is a foundation,
what you get is a relationship,and what you get is exactly like
(41:02):
what you're experiencing withyour horses is that willingness
for them to say, Okay, let'sgive it a go, because I really
trust this relationship becausethey know if they're not feeling
okay, you're gonna listen.
SPEAKER_00 (41:18):
And that's yeah, with exactly with my young
horse.
Um, they're just four years oldnow.
When I try to put her back afterwe've gone for a walk or we've
done some stuff, you know,walking around the farm.
I'm not she's not been sat backyet because she's just four and
I'm careful with her growing.
But anyway, um, getting closerto short periods of being back,
(41:38):
uh, she doesn't want to go backinto the barn or the pasture,
the paddock.
She doesn't want to go, shewants to keep playing the game.
It's like, we're having so muchfun.
Why are you gonna put me back?
I don't want to go back.
Even that's where her friendsare, that's where the food is,
the pasture.
She's like, I really enjoy ourtime together.
And of course, that's why I'mmadly in love with her to have a
horse that's so connected andwants to be with me.
(41:58):
I mean, that's a gift, and it'sso much fun.
SPEAKER_02 (42:00):
Absolutely.
I've got my youngster is nowfour and a couple of months, and
again, like you, he's not beendoing anything.
I always say he's been colouringoutside the lines.
We are now slowly colouringinside the lines.
We're having a few more formalconversations.
So he has had a bare back pad,very soft bareback pad on him.
SPEAKER_00 (42:21):
Exactly, same principle.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (42:23):
And um what is amazing is I showed it to him,
he sniffed it.
He smells of a million horsesbecause it's what a tool I do I
use a lot.
Um and we went through the wholeconversation of showing, of
feeling, of you know, connectingthe mind to the body, connecting
the mind to the items,connecting the mind.
He's doing all thoseconversations, placing it on his
(42:46):
back, nothing, because he truststhe moment and he knows that
okay, this feels okay.
Did up the did up the cinch,nothing.
There's no reaction whatsoever.
And I had a friend here, and shegoes, Oh my god, that was
boring.
No, that was amazing.
That was amazing, and he's socomfortable with this bare back
(43:08):
pad.
Is the other day we went um fora walk, so that's my you know,
the the I have this principle ofdoing familiar things in
familiar spaces, and then doingfamiliar things in not familiar
spaces because it gives you anindication where your baseline
is.
So now we're going for walkswith this bareback pad.
(43:30):
So he knows the walk, that'sfamiliar, and he knows the
bareback pad, that's familiar.
Now we're putting the twotogether.
So now the bareback pad in thisfamiliar place, but that's
unfamiliar, but you can connectthe two as being a good
experience, and so there is noreaction.
So he's just responding to theconversation.
He's so cool with it, he's solike glassé with it.
(43:50):
I put I did take him back andput him back and took the holter
off, you know, and gave him ascratch, turned my back and
went, oh no, I've left it, I'dleft it on him.
Because he was just like, Oh,this is cool.
SPEAKER_00 (44:05):
Right.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that feeling.
Um, the same horse I was talkingabout, the young one, the young
one, her name is Tess.
Um, last Saturday I had somefriends over.
We were working horses in thearena, just doing groundwork,
um, the youngsters and stuff.
And so we had taken a saddleblanket and a soft rope, just
getting her, you know, and wewere carefully getting her used
to the feeling of just havingthe soft rope under her belly.
(44:28):
And so we had tied it on umgently, and we were just leading
her around, right?
Well, I'm leading her, notwatching her body language close
enough.
She lays down to roll, okay?
And I went, Well, I'm not gonnafight you, it's my fault for
not, you know, not payingattention to keeping your head
up.
So she rolls, and of course theblanket comes undone and kind of
floppily goes to her side andunder her belly.
(44:49):
And and uh I'm you know, I'mlike, oh, this is not good.
She's gonna blow up.
This is scary to feel all thisweird stuff.
She stood up and she looked atme and went like, oh dear.
I was able to just walk over andtake it.
I was just going, I remember whyI love you so much.
Because a different horse, if asaddle had slipped because I
wasn't doing things properly, Imean, there would have been some
(45:12):
fireworks, you know, because Ididn't know any better.
But this horse is like, well,you're not gonna hurt me.
So whatever silly things happen,probably can handle it.
Because it wasn't causing herpain, it was just a weird
sensation, you know.
I was just so grateful to taughtmyself, okay, don't do it that
way again.
You know, let's be morepractical.
But I mean, I just I love thisrelationship we've built.
(45:32):
And it's only because over thelast few years I've really
changed how I thought abouthorses, and it has helped me so,
so much.
And I just hope that otherpeople are open to the idea that
it can be different.
SPEAKER_02 (45:43):
Yeah.
I always say you have to have acurious mind and that open heart
and sensible footwork.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
There you go, that open heart again.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
Do anything that you that you please as a partnership
with us.
SPEAKER_00 (45:56):
Well, this has been a delightful conversation,
Rachel.
Um, I really appreciate youtaking the time.
I um do you uh I'm gonna you'regonna we'll get all of your
links, but people can find youon Facebook too.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (46:08):
Uh Rewild Your Horse Spirit, uh Rachel Winchester.
If you if you just search RachelWinchester, both my personal
page and my um uh business page,and also the Winchester Ranch
Mustang.
And I have a group called theRewilding Circle, um, which is
different to the page, it's ait's a little bit more intimate,
and it is just a the sharingspace.
(46:30):
And I do go on there most weeksum with a live and a talk and
run through a topic, and there'sa few um actual um PDFs and and
and free resources in there aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (46:44):
Lovely.
Okay.
Well, it sounds like you're justa uh wonderful resource, and uh
we're gonna have to have anotherpodcast all about Spanish
Mustang sometime.
Um this it's so interesting tome how they got back to Spain
and what does people what dopeople in Spain feel about it?
I mean, you know, is thatsomething that interests them?
So um that part's really coolthat you're preserving something
(47:06):
so special.
Uh so that's that's reallygreat.
SPEAKER_02 (47:09):
It would be my pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (47:11):
Okay.
Well, thank you so much, Rachel.
I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02 (47:15):
You're welcome.
It's been uh it's been a greatopportunity.
Thank you for having me.
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