July 13, 2023 • 45 mins
Join us for the final episode of Governing Chatters for this academic year as we take a retrospective journey through the challenges we've faced and celebrate our accomplishments.
In this episode, we'll delve into the key challenges that schools and trusts have encountered throughout the year and explore the implications of the upcoming outcome of the STRB (School Teachers' Review Body).
We have news to share regarding NGA's leadership and we provide an exclusive sneak peek into NGA's highly anticipated annual governance survey, scheduled for release in September.
Whether you're an experienced governor, an aspiring leader, or simply interested in the world of education governance, this episode will provide valuable insights and thought-provoking discussions to wrap up the academic year.
Join us as we reflect on the past, examine the present, and anticipate the future of school governance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hello, welcome to Governing Chatters.
This is the senior leadership team at National Governance Association, taking stock of where we are at almost very nearly at the end of the school year.
I'm Emma Knight, Chief Executive at NGA.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hi, I'm Emma Bolchin, Director of Professional Development at NGA.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Hi, I'm Steve Edmonds.
I'm Director of Advice and Guidance at NGA.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Hi everyone.
I'm Sam Henson, director of Policy and Communications at NGA.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
So it's been a while since we've got together.
There's been so much happening out there that we've been very, very much involved in, and the months have really whizzed by in 2023, and the same subjects seem to be recurring again and again, don't they?
(01:08):
The first one that sort of jumps up at me that we have been looking out for well, actually for a couple of years, is progress on SEND.
This is something, steve, that you've been watching and working on for a long time now.
(01:28):
What do you think's been happening lately, of note?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, I mean.
Before I talk about that, I should also say that it's something that means a great deal to our members as well and is challenging more and more of our members, whether they're serving mainstream provision or special education provision.
The SEND crisis has not gone away since we last spoke, but what has happened since we last spoke was we've been much anticipated and long-awaited SEND delivery plan.
(02:01):
The plan for delivering the commitments that the government set out in the green paper did arrive in the spring and we welcomed its arrival and actually we saw it as something that had the potential to make a real difference to a broken system, with its commitment to structural reforms and national standards.
(02:29):
All those things we think strategically moves in the right direction, but the reality check here is around the delivery timescale.
What we're not going to see is the delivery decisive delivery of this plan in this parliament, simply because there will be no legislation to support it.
(02:51):
Instead, we're going to have quite a long and drawn out test and pilot program to test some of these reforms, which is due to take us to the end of 2025.
Now there's not a great deal of political certainty around them whether the government will be in place if the polls are to be believed, then there's every likelihood that we will have a different government by then.
(03:15):
And if Labour win power, it's fair to assume that they will have their own priorities and ideas, and we don't yet know how SEND is going to feature in those.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So we're pleased to see the reforms, welcome them, saw the potential of them, but it's not great news for our vulnerable children and young people that this process is nowhere near achieving what it needs to and actually that's a good point to say that NGA, as the voices we aim to be of the governance community, we are in conversations with the Labour Party team as well as, of course, with the Department for Education and the government Education Minister and civil servants.
(04:05):
So we are engaged in this conversation.
We will absolutely continue to raise those issues around pupils, pupils with SEND and the concerns that are forwarded to us by members.
I mean Steve Yew and Rani Kaur are our head of advice recently ran our SEND forum and at that I imagine that those concerns were sort of writ large, particularly around pace and and funding.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Funding in particular.
I mean, I think it can't be understated the impact that the school funding crisis has had on specialist provision, because we know that special schools are more extensive to run, of course, they require more staff and that means they're also in the eye of that particular storm, which is recruitment recruitment and recruiting support staff in particular.
(05:08):
So what we were hearing is very challenging or challenged first-hand accounts from from governors and trustees in special schools in particular, of the daily challenges they're facing just staffing their schools, first and foremost, before we get to providing the quality of provision that you know all our pupils are entitled to and deserve to receive.
(05:31):
So yeah, you're absolutely right, the conversations we have with our network, our SEND network, as informative and inspiring as they are, they're very bleak as well right now because of the funding landscape.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
And actually I think those would sum up quite a number of the topics that we're talking about with our members in whatever sort of phase or structure they're given in, and we are definitely going to come back to resources and workforce and pay in a moment, but just before we do, I think we ought to have a moment or two on structures, because we have talked every single time on the on governing chatters, about the white paper and what that means for the shape of the school system over the coming years, and we have just had a rather long awaited piece of guidance around how the regional directors are going to to commission academies.
(06:37):
So, sam, do you want to just say a little bit about that before we return to money and people?
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Thanks, emma.
Yeah so I think the guidance that you've mentioned, emma, is, as you say, something we were told to expect when the white paper is released.
I think it forms very much part of the department's wide vision for a system that is built on this idea of high quality trusts, which I think that language, that terminology, has really been making its way through the system of late, hasn't it?
(07:25):
And I think there's been a slight shift from the, from the language we were using before, to that high quality aspect.
The commissioning guidance really is what it says on the tin, isn't it?
I think it's about how the department, through the regional directors, commissions trust to take on schools and grow, and the parameters of which it will look at in order to make those decisions.
(07:59):
I don't think there's anything massively groundbreaking in it.
If I'm honest, I think you know a lot of it is based on the stuff we already knew, but it does set out the, the evidence to approach the department will take, which I think you know is useful for trust boards in particular, and also schools that are looking to join trusts potentially in the future, gives them a bit more of an idea of actually when they're trying to figure out the trust that they want to consider looking at what are the things that are deemed to be important in defining the quality of a trust, and so I think, from from both perspectives, it's useful.
(08:53):
The final thing I'll say about about Emma is I think the role of the boards is very much a part of it.
Don't think it's specified enough, but it's there and I think in general we've seen this a bit a bit at the moment, aren't we with a number of pieces where the department's kind of lumping the trust these in with the wider leadership aspect.
(09:22):
So we've seen the pillar that was originally going to be the strategic governance pillar now become leadership and governance and those two kind of merged into one.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And that's really important because when we first saw the draft guidance, we were a bit worried about the fact that trustees and boards role work weren't specified, and so they said, oh, but that's because you come under the trust leaders category, which I don't think the world out there necessarily immediately thinks, and it's now been added into the added into the glossary, because there is obviously a real distinction to be made about what is the role of the board, particularly the role of the chair, in working with the DFA regional directorate, as opposed to the, the executives that have sent back to message and that we've had for all boards of trustees, of trusts that want to grow.
(10:21):
Is that absolutely?
Make sure that's on your agenda too, and if you think it's necessary to be part of those conversations with the regional director, then you know, impose yourself upon those discussions.
You shouldn't be on the periphery of them.
And it also, I think the other thing that that perhaps needs a project is just the fact that this is a step in the right direction.
(10:46):
On transparency, we've had a lot of our sort of smaller map members say they don't necessarily think they get fair crack of the whip.
They're not noticed enough perhaps by the powers that be.
They believe themselves to be high, high quality.
So that's, that's got to be a good thing.
(11:06):
We're going a little way that way, but perhaps not far enough.
So we'll wait and see how it actually plays out once it's in in practice next, next academic year.
Let's go back.
Let's go back.
Let's go back to money and people.
Clearly, we're recording this at the time and it may well be that in the next 24 hours we have some sort of resolution, but right now we're waiting for the government announcement about any future funding and whether or not the government is going to support the pay review bodies recommendation that we believe to be 6.5% increase in teachers pay.
(11:56):
Even though we are one of the organisations that submits evidence, strb, we haven't yet seen the report ourselves.
And obviously, as is all over the news at the moment, the big question is, if the DFE goes with the 6.5%, how much funding is going to come newly from Treasury?
(12:20):
Or are schools and trusts going to be able to afford the whole of the 6.5% themselves?
And I think it's fair to say we know from our membership lots and lots of people the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to fund the full 6.5% from their existing trust or school budgets, and one of the reasons I can be so or we can be so authoritative about that is because you have, with your team, been analysing the results of the 2023 survey, so why don't you take us through the big issues from that?
Speaker 4 (13:01):
yeah, absolutely, and I think first thing to say is the biggest challenge schools and trusts have told us they've got across the sector really, regardless of phase of type, structure and so on is balancing the budget, and we know that that is something that they tell us pretty much every year.
(13:27):
But this year I think the picture is slightly more severe and I think what the survey has done has really captured the growing concern and last year absolutely presented some of the biggest challenges to their budgets, but I think they've only got worse in recent times.
(13:55):
Obviously, we're all incredibly aware of the impact of the energy crisis, for example, but I thought it was really interesting that the energy crisis didn't actually make it into the top 5 of issues that are impacting people's budgets.
So that just gives you an idea, considering how much we've focused on that, and that's not even the top 1 or 2 or 3 things.
(14:24):
I don't really know what to say.
It just creates a really concerning picture, isn't it?
And I think that's what everyone's saying pretty much.
So I think that's the first thing to say about that, and obviously we'll do lots of exploration on that within the report itself, and I do have a look at that, but I think the other things that are worth saying on the wider survey findings is the other challenges that people tend to us, the attendance being a big one, and attendance was the only issue that made it into the top 3 of challenges.
(15:16):
And again, I think we've talked about attendance collectively before, but it's been an issue that's been dominating, I think, a lot of the education conversations over the last year or so.
And again, I think it's schools, and I'm struggling to see how we're going to move to an improved picture with that.
(15:47):
I think it really feels like actually, the mindset on attendance has shifted a little bit in some places, so that's a big worry.
The positive side is actually what we find is people telling us that the simple tool of engaging with parents remains the most effective thing for doing that.
(16:10):
I say simple, it's not actually that simple, is it, and I think we're all aware of the challenges that can present.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
But it is so important, isn't it, to hear from them as to why this is more of a problem than before.
So we can make our assumptions from where we're sitting.
And obviously we know this has changed quite fundamentally post pandemic.
But I was at the round table just yesterday and people made the point that because of increasing family pressures with cost of living, that actually transport costs were becoming more of an issue, and that they were aware of families where one sibling was going one day and the next the next because they could only afford one set of bus fares.
(16:57):
I mean, that's well, I don't know about unheard of, because I'm sure that may have been a case before the pandemic, but to have that sort of example discussed as not that of an outsider was put that issue of attendance in a slightly different place.
(17:19):
That's just going to be one of many reasons, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Yeah, and I think that's a really interesting example because I think that helps to show the complexity of the issue, because it's not actually one thing or another.
I mean you've presented there one really important side of it.
The other point is, like you also alluded to, Emma is the long-term reaction from the pandemic, the attitude changes.
(17:51):
I think that stays in my mind was a quote from somebody who completed the survey who basically said that actually the families in their school were just happy to pay the fines now, and that's what you know.
So it's incredibly challenging.
(18:12):
It's something that I think Bort will be thinking more and more about.
We already know that they have been over the last 12 months, but it's been good to see schools and trusts and governing boards kind of share in practice.
As you know, NGA and the work of Steve's team have very much kind of been thinking about this and what we can do to support them.
(18:36):
We've got some really excellent resources now, both in our guidance and in our e-learning linkers as well.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
It might also just be worth saying that, you know, meanwhile there are all of these pressures, financially and in terms of workforce recruiting and retaining and paying your workforce.
Actually, schools all over the country are getting on with their business of educating young people.
I think it's sometimes very easy, when the sort of policy world is pretty doom and gloomy, actually to forget the sort of joy and fun that there is in schools generally, but also in the run up to the summer, with various events and sports days and things like that.
(19:29):
The workforce often is managing to deliver the work for families as well as it ever did.
But that sort of takes its toll, doesn't it, on the people that are governing boards are employing.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Absolutely, and I think we really have to celebrate that point that you know, despite the circumstances you know, the weight of which has been growing so quickly, actually we do have incredibly talented and committed staff in our schools who are doing amazing jobs, who are served by incredibly talented and committed governing boards as well.
(20:16):
So I think you know that's one thing that you know we shouldn't lose sight of, and I think that can.
Sometimes it's easy to lose sight of that because you know we've got to remember that, as a sector and as a profession, people are continually being told how bad it is, and I think you know it's right that we're drawing attention to the challenges.
(20:45):
But actually, you know, as we would always say, whilst the complexities and the challenges are there and hugely challenging, actually the reward of feeding into people's lives, you know, helping young people achieve their potential, you know, for the people who really want to do this, that's never going to go away.
(21:13):
That's always going to be a big, big driver.
That said, we can't ever take advantage of that and we have to be really careful, don't we?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
absolutely, and I think it's something that we're really conscious of at NGA as well, isn't it?
Because we also don't want to be saying it's also terrible, it's, all you know, impossible, and when actually, we want to encourage people to govern and to govern well and I think again, that's something that came out of the survey in terms of volunteer recruitment.
(21:48):
That is also a challenge and a continuing and growing challenge, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (21:53):
It is, yeah, and I think that's something we're going to explore in a bit more in depth with our full report in September.
But yeah, I mean again, we're told you on the year that the challenge with that.
Many of you will know that we've done various things over the years.
You know the likes of things, of the Self-Visible Governance campaign and just to draw more attention to the role and really kind of shine a light on what people are doing as they volunteer their time.
(22:26):
But if we look at the facts and the cold light of the day, I think that the reality is that the recruitment challenge for boards is worse than it's ever been since we've been doing the survey.
I think that's right, isn't it?
And I wasn't hearing it and Jay, when we first started doing the survey, it was a long, long time ago.
(22:48):
But that's kind of the power of the survey.
Because we've been doing it for so long, you know we've got that longitudinal picture.
I always struggled to say that words, but yeah, Emma, I think you wanted to come in.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Just to say really that a couple of the things that you found in the survey really resonate with what our NLGs are finding when they've been undertaking their external reviews of governance.
We recently had Nina in Sam's team do some qualitative research into some of the most prevalent challenges that were facing governing boards and perhaps preventing governance being as good as it might be, and the one around board composition was actually the top issue.
(23:34):
So she analyzed 200 external reviews of governance and in over a third of those reviews the makeup of the governing board was the key challenge.
So actually it wasn't just about recruitment although that was really really clear.
It relates to your first point actually, sam, and that one about budget that everybody's really struggling with because they were not only struggling to fill their vacancies.
(24:02):
It was also actually the issue around financial capability and a particular skill set on larger trusts where budgets were bigger, having that sort of expertise on the board being really key and sometimes missing A bit lower down the list.
So that was our top issue that the NLGs identified more commonly than anything else.
(24:25):
So we looked at sort of number five financial oversight was also there and then again at number 10, risk management was also there and when they dug down into actually what is not going as well as it could around risk management and mitigation and planning, and it was those things around falling pupil numbers and the impact that that will have on those budgets, particularly in the primary sector, which obviously we know that low cohort of children will work its way through to the secondary sector in the years to come, and also in that risk management.
(25:03):
Again, this relates to something, steve, you touched on but everybody's mentioned on the podcast today, which is also around a failure to plan or mitigate against staffing issues, so recruitment of staffing also falling into that same umbrella.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
And I think that's really important point to make.
Emma, and I think when we talk about Star thing, one thing that's the survey shown us this year more than ever is you know, we are talking about all Star, aren't we?
We're not just talking about teachers, and I think there's been a lot rightly so a lot of focus on the crisis really in recruiting and retaining teachers, but actually that one thing that was interesting with the survey this year was the overall that what was reported was recruitment and retention of support staff was actually slightly more of a challenge than teachers staff.
(26:13):
And Steve, I know that you've obviously govern in a couple of different contexts and it would be something that you would have seen firsthand, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Absolutely.
But before I talk about that, can we just go back to STRB for a moment and I'm sorry if I'm stealing your thunder here, emma, because I'm sure you might want to be mentioning this, but I don't want this to pass by, because we're talking about financial oversight here and just how seriously boards take it not only the discipline of it, but having the capacity to do it and it just brings into sharp focus, doesn't it Just how disrespectful the government have been to those leading and governing our schools by not publishing the STRB report yet.
(27:01):
And, emma, you and I go to STRB every year and we say the same thing, as I know all the organisations do, that it's imperative that we avoid the repeats of previous years, that the report is published in a timely way so those governing and leading schools can plan their budgets and do their best to plan or pull whatever limited leaders they have at their disposal to deal with these issues, whether they're recruitment, retention, falling people, roles, all those challenges.
(27:32):
And year on year we say this and, to paraphrase STRB, they say something like well, we're aware of this and we hand it over to the government in a timely way, and then it's up to them.
But I just think that this year of all years and I appreciate there's so much going on politically around this and, as we're recording, we've had the announcement of more industrial action in the autumn term I still think it's just so disrespectful to those leading and governing schools, and if you want us to do financial oversight well, in a climate where the levers that we have available at our disposal and the decisions we have left to make are so limited, then the very least you can do is help us by letting us know where we stand.
(28:28):
And they just haven't done that, and I just think that I didn't want this moment to pass in the conversation without going back in the knowledge, in that MLU going to say something like that Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
You're so, so right, and we have been trying to make that point directly to such a state in letters and to her minister, as indeed lots and lots of other people are.
I mean, as you say, strb will hear that from a lot of people.
(28:58):
The timetable does not work in the best of times and we're now absolutely not in the best of times.
We're at the other extreme end of the spectrum, where we used to didn't.
We have STRB and the pay decisions for April, and now July seems to be the new normal, when we're almost into summer holidays and those governors and trustees who are responsible for budgets will be looking at those with their senior leaders as a result of this.
(29:30):
So you're absolutely right, it's completely unacceptable, and we do try and say that in any which way we can both work to officials, and it always comes back that it's in part Treasury's fault and it is indeed the way that they manage their accounts.
They can't do it any differently in terms of giving people a longer notice.
(29:54):
But it's something that absolutely needs to be fixed in the system, and what's playing out now is exactly the end result of having said this all of us for many, many years and having been no change.
So we're acutely aware that many of you will have more than one budget for next year, depending on what the pay rise looks like.
(30:23):
So one of the big findings in this year's survey, which again, as Sam said, longitudinal we've asked this every single year apart from, I think, one year when we were very much approaching a general election.
We've asked people what they felt about the government's past year's record and the response came back lower than ever.
(30:47):
Only 9% of respondents were happy with the way that the government has run education in England, and that is quite a remarkable finding when you think that you know governors and trustees do come from all walks of life and all parts of the political spectrum.
So the fact that they're telling us that, I think, is really symptomatic of the difficulties that schools and trusts find themselves in, which isn't necessary, or some of it may well come back to ideology, but some of it is absolutely about practice and the way that schools are being asked to solve a lot of problems that are coming from outside their gates, picking up issues that have arisen because other public services and other voluntary services are absolutely stretched and perhaps not as available and accessible to young people in their families as they used to be.
(31:49):
So, in the same way that leaders are now having to deal with, you know, a much broader spectrum of issues that feeds up to the governing boards, who are now talking about things that probably they never spoke about, even five, six, seven years ago, when the pressures were not quite as huge.
(32:10):
So, yes, we have just written to MPs as well, because, not having made headway with government ministers, we felt it was.
We've been urging our members, both directly in the newsletter and at our summer conference, to tell their stories to MPs, that they need to hear about your experience, they need to understand your expertise, and actually that was absolutely confirmed to me yesterday when I was in Westminster and a senior parliamentarian was asked what can we do to get the case across, and his answer was we need to hear your stories.
(32:55):
So that is really important.
If I can urge people, no matter what time of year it is but now is a very critical one to keep telling us, but also to keep telling your elected representatives as well.
(33:15):
So I think we've got two reports that we'd love you to read the one that Sam's been referring to, the interim report with the key findings of the survey and the full report will be available at the beginning of the term.
And then Emma talked about that report the learning from our national leaders of governance who the programme that we ran for the DFE for two years.
(33:41):
Sadly, they're not extending it past those two years and that reason for that was wholly about funding.
We're very disappointed about that, not just because we had a fantastic cadre of 70 very experienced national leaders of governance, but because those lessons that we've just been talked about will not necessarily be learnt and shared.
(34:04):
In the same way.
It will leave a big hole in terms of expertise and support for schools and boards that need it most.
So I don't know whether I've missed in that canter through all those Issues and is there anything that I Should have said that I that I haven't done?
(34:31):
Perhaps one thing is we want to celebrate and then we are new brand, which we're very Happy.
Happy about being a little bit more modern, or a lot more modern than the previous one, and Extremely and extremely colorful.
But each of you may have other things that you just want to include before we Sign off for the summer.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
I guess I would say I know Steve sort of has done a bit of a Refresh, of being strategic, and so there's a document there We've been driving people to.
But the second, the second top issue and it's very timely Was about boards making sure they really own their vision and that they're Involved in guiding and driving the strategic direction of their trust or school.
(35:21):
So I suppose it's kind of the the time is now.
So, if you aren't doing it already, one of the biggest lessons we can learn from the external reviews of governance that the NLG's have undertaken Is to really take that step back, take that time and make sure that your vision is really clear and that it's really owned by your whole school community and driven forward by you as governors and trustees, ready for sort of beating the ground running in September.
(35:51):
That's kind of, I suppose, my end of year play, based off the research.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
And that's really well said, emma, because I think we we've been talking For the last few minutes about schools being in survival mode more than strategic mode, and that's just the times we're in.
But I think what what came came out of the process of refreshing the being strategic guidance and and all the conversations that I was privileged to have with With different people in the sector about our approach to that and since we've launched it, the the conversations We've got we had at conference, for example, the other week is that those boards that, in good times and bad, embrace strategy development as a discipline and work as a team To embed a vision through strategy, as you were saying, really transform outcomes and the lives of children and young people.
(36:46):
I think you know, I don't think we can overstate just how transformative that process is and life changing it is, and so Don't lose sight of it.
I think he's a very he's a very good Message and a very good reminder for everyone, listening and including ourselves, because we all govern too.
And Just looking forward, can I?
(37:08):
Can I mention something that I can't remember some you'll be able to help me out here Whether this is featured as much in this year survey as it did in the previous years.
But that's just the state of our school buildings Right now.
It was a shocking report released last week where 70,000 pupils, I think it estimated, have been educated in buildings that aren't aren't fit for purpose, and you know that's.
(37:36):
That's a legacy again of under investment and Treasury.
The DFE Estimates it's going to cost the best part, or more than five billion pounds to bring buildings in In England schools up to scratch, and I think they get currently get around three billion.
So it's quite easy to understand where the problem is coming from.
(37:56):
But what surprises me really, so we don't hear more from our members about this and about this issue directly?
I know we and it's not we don't.
We don't hear at all, and I just have a thing that this is an issue coming down a track for us, really that we're going to be Discussing a lot with our members.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
That I might be wrong, but I think you're right, steve, and so we.
We asked a very specific question about this this year in the survey which Will it's born detail in the final report In September.
But just as a bit of a headline finding and yeah, absolutely.
(38:36):
This is a growing issue and it's something that more people are telling us about and it's taking more Time on their boards discussing it.
I think probably the key thing is people want a bit more Indication of what they meant to do about it, which you know very much.
For those what you just said interestingly as well, we we're gonna be doing more on this and Including a webinar later on the year as well.
(39:05):
So if that is a topic that is and you know you want to hear more about, make sure you tune into that, that webinar that we're going to be doing in the autumn term.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Absolutely, and you please do always talk just in any which way, whether it be at events and by email or yeah, give us a ring.
We always want to hear about how things are playing out In your area, because it will be different from other people's Contacts.
(39:36):
So, on that note of looking forward to September, we have some changes here at NGA and I will be job sharing the post of chief executive with Emma Bolton from September and, as I begin my my final year at NGA, which has been a very, very long time 14 years, I hope I hope well spent.
(40:01):
So it will be a absolute privilege to share that role with Emma.
But we also have other news.
Very Well, sadly, sadly for for us, steve, after four and a half years with us as director of rise and guidance, is moving on to past, is new, and Steve has made a huge, huge contribution to the leadership here and absolutely been in charge of so many of our flagship pieces of of guidance and helping shape Governance.
(40:44):
Actually, that's our.
That's a bit of a strap line, isn't it?
Shaping stronger governance, shaping good, good, good governance, and Steve's definitely been in the business of that.
So this, this really is, um, oh, I was about to say the last goodbye from you, steve, which sounds rather melodramatic.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Melodramatic, but I thought I would hand over to you to say a bit of a goodbye well, thank you for that, Emma, and yeah, it's a strange, it's a strange feeling to be moving on.
I really am going to miss these conversations, however bleak they they become.
With that, we always find an optimistic and cheery note, and that's that's what I love about them.
(41:28):
So I'll miss these conversations.
I'm absolutely going to miss my colleagues at NGA and our wonderful members as well.
You know, it's been a huge privilege to Meet and spend time with our members, whether that's events or in our many networks, governance professional networks so you would send networks, networks through the funding, many more Uh.
(41:51):
So it's just been the most um, wonderful privilege to spend time with people who do so much day in, day out, day in and day out on behalf of others, uh, and to talk to them about their experiences and learn from them as well, and so I'd like to thank them for that.
That the you know the?
Uh for giving, being so given of their time.
And I think you've said emery in the past, who describes the governance community as a, as a formidable force for good and a vital part of the specific fabric of our country, and I don't think I could put that any better myself, and I'm really sad to be leaving a job that supports Our wonderful members and the wonderful governance community, but I won't.
(42:39):
I'm still going to be part of that, that community.
I will still remain as a governor and a trustee, and that's something that's very important to me.
Um, so I I'd just like to say thanks to NGA, first of all, for very much for the opportunity, but, above all, thanks to to all our members and everyone who governs for for all that you do.
(43:00):
Uh, for our children and young people, it means a lot.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Yeah, really, really well said, Steve.
I think that's a brilliant night on which to um leave this discussion and from all of us, and yeah, I think we absolutely Uh always want to thank you for for your time and and your, your care Um in this incredibly important role that that you pay.
So thank you.
(43:24):
I hope Um, despite budgetary issues, you're gonna get some good time off Um this summer, so please um enjoy and we'll um see you again in September.
That's goodbye from all four of us.
(44:04):
You.
Hello, welcome to Governing Chatters.
This is the senior leadership team at National Governance Association, taking stock of where we are at almost very nearly at the end of the school year.
I'm Emma Knight, Chief Executive at NGA.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hi, I'm Emma Bolchin, Director of Professional Development at NGA.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Hi, I'm Steve Edmonds.
I'm Director of Advice and Guidance at NGA.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Hi everyone.
I'm Sam Henson, director of Policy and Communications at NGA.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
So it's been a while since we've got together.
There's been so much happening out there that we've been very, very much involved in, and the months have really whizzed by in 2023, and the same subjects seem to be recurring again and again, don't they?
(01:08):
The first one that sort of jumps up at me that we have been looking out for well, actually for a couple of years, is progress on SEND.
This is something, steve, that you've been watching and working on for a long time now.
(01:28):
What do you think's been happening lately, of note?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, I mean.
Before I talk about that, I should also say that it's something that means a great deal to our members as well and is challenging more and more of our members, whether they're serving mainstream provision or special education provision.
The SEND crisis has not gone away since we last spoke, but what has happened since we last spoke was we've been much anticipated and long-awaited SEND delivery plan.
(02:01):
The plan for delivering the commitments that the government set out in the green paper did arrive in the spring and we welcomed its arrival and actually we saw it as something that had the potential to make a real difference to a broken system, with its commitment to structural reforms and national standards.
(02:29):
All those things we think strategically moves in the right direction, but the reality check here is around the delivery timescale.
What we're not going to see is the delivery decisive delivery of this plan in this parliament, simply because there will be no legislation to support it.
(02:51):
Instead, we're going to have quite a long and drawn out test and pilot program to test some of these reforms, which is due to take us to the end of 2025.
Now there's not a great deal of political certainty around them whether the government will be in place if the polls are to be believed, then there's every likelihood that we will have a different government by then.
(03:15):
And if Labour win power, it's fair to assume that they will have their own priorities and ideas, and we don't yet know how SEND is going to feature in those.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So we're pleased to see the reforms, welcome them, saw the potential of them, but it's not great news for our vulnerable children and young people that this process is nowhere near achieving what it needs to and actually that's a good point to say that NGA, as the voices we aim to be of the governance community, we are in conversations with the Labour Party team as well as, of course, with the Department for Education and the government Education Minister and civil servants.
(04:05):
So we are engaged in this conversation.
We will absolutely continue to raise those issues around pupils, pupils with SEND and the concerns that are forwarded to us by members.
I mean Steve Yew and Rani Kaur are our head of advice recently ran our SEND forum and at that I imagine that those concerns were sort of writ large, particularly around pace and and funding.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Funding in particular.
I mean, I think it can't be understated the impact that the school funding crisis has had on specialist provision, because we know that special schools are more extensive to run, of course, they require more staff and that means they're also in the eye of that particular storm, which is recruitment recruitment and recruiting support staff in particular.
(05:08):
So what we were hearing is very challenging or challenged first-hand accounts from from governors and trustees in special schools in particular, of the daily challenges they're facing just staffing their schools, first and foremost, before we get to providing the quality of provision that you know all our pupils are entitled to and deserve to receive.
(05:31):
So yeah, you're absolutely right, the conversations we have with our network, our SEND network, as informative and inspiring as they are, they're very bleak as well right now because of the funding landscape.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
And actually I think those would sum up quite a number of the topics that we're talking about with our members in whatever sort of phase or structure they're given in, and we are definitely going to come back to resources and workforce and pay in a moment, but just before we do, I think we ought to have a moment or two on structures, because we have talked every single time on the on governing chatters, about the white paper and what that means for the shape of the school system over the coming years, and we have just had a rather long awaited piece of guidance around how the regional directors are going to to commission academies.
(06:37):
So, sam, do you want to just say a little bit about that before we return to money and people?
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Thanks, emma.
Yeah so I think the guidance that you've mentioned, emma, is, as you say, something we were told to expect when the white paper is released.
I think it forms very much part of the department's wide vision for a system that is built on this idea of high quality trusts, which I think that language, that terminology, has really been making its way through the system of late, hasn't it?
(07:25):
And I think there's been a slight shift from the, from the language we were using before, to that high quality aspect.
The commissioning guidance really is what it says on the tin, isn't it?
I think it's about how the department, through the regional directors, commissions trust to take on schools and grow, and the parameters of which it will look at in order to make those decisions.
(07:59):
I don't think there's anything massively groundbreaking in it.
If I'm honest, I think you know a lot of it is based on the stuff we already knew, but it does set out the, the evidence to approach the department will take, which I think you know is useful for trust boards in particular, and also schools that are looking to join trusts potentially in the future, gives them a bit more of an idea of actually when they're trying to figure out the trust that they want to consider looking at what are the things that are deemed to be important in defining the quality of a trust, and so I think, from from both perspectives, it's useful.
(08:53):
The final thing I'll say about about Emma is I think the role of the boards is very much a part of it.
Don't think it's specified enough, but it's there and I think in general we've seen this a bit a bit at the moment, aren't we with a number of pieces where the department's kind of lumping the trust these in with the wider leadership aspect.
(09:22):
So we've seen the pillar that was originally going to be the strategic governance pillar now become leadership and governance and those two kind of merged into one.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And that's really important because when we first saw the draft guidance, we were a bit worried about the fact that trustees and boards role work weren't specified, and so they said, oh, but that's because you come under the trust leaders category, which I don't think the world out there necessarily immediately thinks, and it's now been added into the added into the glossary, because there is obviously a real distinction to be made about what is the role of the board, particularly the role of the chair, in working with the DFA regional directorate, as opposed to the, the executives that have sent back to message and that we've had for all boards of trustees, of trusts that want to grow.
(10:21):
Is that absolutely?
Make sure that's on your agenda too, and if you think it's necessary to be part of those conversations with the regional director, then you know, impose yourself upon those discussions.
You shouldn't be on the periphery of them.
And it also, I think the other thing that that perhaps needs a project is just the fact that this is a step in the right direction.
(10:46):
On transparency, we've had a lot of our sort of smaller map members say they don't necessarily think they get fair crack of the whip.
They're not noticed enough perhaps by the powers that be.
They believe themselves to be high, high quality.
So that's, that's got to be a good thing.
(11:06):
We're going a little way that way, but perhaps not far enough.
So we'll wait and see how it actually plays out once it's in in practice next, next academic year.
Let's go back.
Let's go back.
Let's go back to money and people.
Clearly, we're recording this at the time and it may well be that in the next 24 hours we have some sort of resolution, but right now we're waiting for the government announcement about any future funding and whether or not the government is going to support the pay review bodies recommendation that we believe to be 6.5% increase in teachers pay.
(11:56):
Even though we are one of the organisations that submits evidence, strb, we haven't yet seen the report ourselves.
And obviously, as is all over the news at the moment, the big question is, if the DFE goes with the 6.5%, how much funding is going to come newly from Treasury?
(12:20):
Or are schools and trusts going to be able to afford the whole of the 6.5% themselves?
And I think it's fair to say we know from our membership lots and lots of people the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to fund the full 6.5% from their existing trust or school budgets, and one of the reasons I can be so or we can be so authoritative about that is because you have, with your team, been analysing the results of the 2023 survey, so why don't you take us through the big issues from that?
Speaker 4 (13:01):
yeah, absolutely, and I think first thing to say is the biggest challenge schools and trusts have told us they've got across the sector really, regardless of phase of type, structure and so on is balancing the budget, and we know that that is something that they tell us pretty much every year.
(13:27):
But this year I think the picture is slightly more severe and I think what the survey has done has really captured the growing concern and last year absolutely presented some of the biggest challenges to their budgets, but I think they've only got worse in recent times.
(13:55):
Obviously, we're all incredibly aware of the impact of the energy crisis, for example, but I thought it was really interesting that the energy crisis didn't actually make it into the top 5 of issues that are impacting people's budgets.
So that just gives you an idea, considering how much we've focused on that, and that's not even the top 1 or 2 or 3 things.
(14:24):
I don't really know what to say.
It just creates a really concerning picture, isn't it?
And I think that's what everyone's saying pretty much.
So I think that's the first thing to say about that, and obviously we'll do lots of exploration on that within the report itself, and I do have a look at that, but I think the other things that are worth saying on the wider survey findings is the other challenges that people tend to us, the attendance being a big one, and attendance was the only issue that made it into the top 3 of challenges.
(15:16):
And again, I think we've talked about attendance collectively before, but it's been an issue that's been dominating, I think, a lot of the education conversations over the last year or so.
And again, I think it's schools, and I'm struggling to see how we're going to move to an improved picture with that.
(15:47):
I think it really feels like actually, the mindset on attendance has shifted a little bit in some places, so that's a big worry.
The positive side is actually what we find is people telling us that the simple tool of engaging with parents remains the most effective thing for doing that.
(16:10):
I say simple, it's not actually that simple, is it, and I think we're all aware of the challenges that can present.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
But it is so important, isn't it, to hear from them as to why this is more of a problem than before.
So we can make our assumptions from where we're sitting.
And obviously we know this has changed quite fundamentally post pandemic.
But I was at the round table just yesterday and people made the point that because of increasing family pressures with cost of living, that actually transport costs were becoming more of an issue, and that they were aware of families where one sibling was going one day and the next the next because they could only afford one set of bus fares.
(16:57):
I mean, that's well, I don't know about unheard of, because I'm sure that may have been a case before the pandemic, but to have that sort of example discussed as not that of an outsider was put that issue of attendance in a slightly different place.
(17:19):
That's just going to be one of many reasons, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Yeah, and I think that's a really interesting example because I think that helps to show the complexity of the issue, because it's not actually one thing or another.
I mean you've presented there one really important side of it.
The other point is, like you also alluded to, Emma is the long-term reaction from the pandemic, the attitude changes.
(17:51):
I think that stays in my mind was a quote from somebody who completed the survey who basically said that actually the families in their school were just happy to pay the fines now, and that's what you know.
So it's incredibly challenging.
(18:12):
It's something that I think Bort will be thinking more and more about.
We already know that they have been over the last 12 months, but it's been good to see schools and trusts and governing boards kind of share in practice.
As you know, NGA and the work of Steve's team have very much kind of been thinking about this and what we can do to support them.
(18:36):
We've got some really excellent resources now, both in our guidance and in our e-learning linkers as well.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
It might also just be worth saying that, you know, meanwhile there are all of these pressures, financially and in terms of workforce recruiting and retaining and paying your workforce.
Actually, schools all over the country are getting on with their business of educating young people.
I think it's sometimes very easy, when the sort of policy world is pretty doom and gloomy, actually to forget the sort of joy and fun that there is in schools generally, but also in the run up to the summer, with various events and sports days and things like that.
(19:29):
The workforce often is managing to deliver the work for families as well as it ever did.
But that sort of takes its toll, doesn't it, on the people that are governing boards are employing.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Absolutely, and I think we really have to celebrate that point that you know, despite the circumstances you know, the weight of which has been growing so quickly, actually we do have incredibly talented and committed staff in our schools who are doing amazing jobs, who are served by incredibly talented and committed governing boards as well.
(20:16):
So I think you know that's one thing that you know we shouldn't lose sight of, and I think that can.
Sometimes it's easy to lose sight of that because you know we've got to remember that, as a sector and as a profession, people are continually being told how bad it is, and I think you know it's right that we're drawing attention to the challenges.
(20:45):
But actually, you know, as we would always say, whilst the complexities and the challenges are there and hugely challenging, actually the reward of feeding into people's lives, you know, helping young people achieve their potential, you know, for the people who really want to do this, that's never going to go away.
(21:13):
That's always going to be a big, big driver.
That said, we can't ever take advantage of that and we have to be really careful, don't we?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
absolutely, and I think it's something that we're really conscious of at NGA as well, isn't it?
Because we also don't want to be saying it's also terrible, it's, all you know, impossible, and when actually, we want to encourage people to govern and to govern well and I think again, that's something that came out of the survey in terms of volunteer recruitment.
(21:48):
That is also a challenge and a continuing and growing challenge, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (21:53):
It is, yeah, and I think that's something we're going to explore in a bit more in depth with our full report in September.
But yeah, I mean again, we're told you on the year that the challenge with that.
Many of you will know that we've done various things over the years.
You know the likes of things, of the Self-Visible Governance campaign and just to draw more attention to the role and really kind of shine a light on what people are doing as they volunteer their time.
(22:26):
But if we look at the facts and the cold light of the day, I think that the reality is that the recruitment challenge for boards is worse than it's ever been since we've been doing the survey.
I think that's right, isn't it?
And I wasn't hearing it and Jay, when we first started doing the survey, it was a long, long time ago.
(22:48):
But that's kind of the power of the survey.
Because we've been doing it for so long, you know we've got that longitudinal picture.
I always struggled to say that words, but yeah, Emma, I think you wanted to come in.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Just to say really that a couple of the things that you found in the survey really resonate with what our NLGs are finding when they've been undertaking their external reviews of governance.
We recently had Nina in Sam's team do some qualitative research into some of the most prevalent challenges that were facing governing boards and perhaps preventing governance being as good as it might be, and the one around board composition was actually the top issue.
(23:34):
So she analyzed 200 external reviews of governance and in over a third of those reviews the makeup of the governing board was the key challenge.
So actually it wasn't just about recruitment although that was really really clear.
It relates to your first point actually, sam, and that one about budget that everybody's really struggling with because they were not only struggling to fill their vacancies.
(24:02):
It was also actually the issue around financial capability and a particular skill set on larger trusts where budgets were bigger, having that sort of expertise on the board being really key and sometimes missing A bit lower down the list.
So that was our top issue that the NLGs identified more commonly than anything else.
(24:25):
So we looked at sort of number five financial oversight was also there and then again at number 10, risk management was also there and when they dug down into actually what is not going as well as it could around risk management and mitigation and planning, and it was those things around falling pupil numbers and the impact that that will have on those budgets, particularly in the primary sector, which obviously we know that low cohort of children will work its way through to the secondary sector in the years to come, and also in that risk management.
(25:03):
Again, this relates to something, steve, you touched on but everybody's mentioned on the podcast today, which is also around a failure to plan or mitigate against staffing issues, so recruitment of staffing also falling into that same umbrella.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
And I think that's really important point to make.
Emma, and I think when we talk about Star thing, one thing that's the survey shown us this year more than ever is you know, we are talking about all Star, aren't we?
We're not just talking about teachers, and I think there's been a lot rightly so a lot of focus on the crisis really in recruiting and retaining teachers, but actually that one thing that was interesting with the survey this year was the overall that what was reported was recruitment and retention of support staff was actually slightly more of a challenge than teachers staff.
(26:13):
And Steve, I know that you've obviously govern in a couple of different contexts and it would be something that you would have seen firsthand, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Absolutely.
But before I talk about that, can we just go back to STRB for a moment and I'm sorry if I'm stealing your thunder here, emma, because I'm sure you might want to be mentioning this, but I don't want this to pass by, because we're talking about financial oversight here and just how seriously boards take it not only the discipline of it, but having the capacity to do it and it just brings into sharp focus, doesn't it Just how disrespectful the government have been to those leading and governing our schools by not publishing the STRB report yet.
(27:01):
And, emma, you and I go to STRB every year and we say the same thing, as I know all the organisations do, that it's imperative that we avoid the repeats of previous years, that the report is published in a timely way so those governing and leading schools can plan their budgets and do their best to plan or pull whatever limited leaders they have at their disposal to deal with these issues, whether they're recruitment, retention, falling people, roles, all those challenges.
(27:32):
And year on year we say this and, to paraphrase STRB, they say something like well, we're aware of this and we hand it over to the government in a timely way, and then it's up to them.
But I just think that this year of all years and I appreciate there's so much going on politically around this and, as we're recording, we've had the announcement of more industrial action in the autumn term I still think it's just so disrespectful to those leading and governing schools, and if you want us to do financial oversight well, in a climate where the levers that we have available at our disposal and the decisions we have left to make are so limited, then the very least you can do is help us by letting us know where we stand.
(28:28):
And they just haven't done that, and I just think that I didn't want this moment to pass in the conversation without going back in the knowledge, in that MLU going to say something like that Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
You're so, so right, and we have been trying to make that point directly to such a state in letters and to her minister, as indeed lots and lots of other people are.
I mean, as you say, strb will hear that from a lot of people.
(28:58):
The timetable does not work in the best of times and we're now absolutely not in the best of times.
We're at the other extreme end of the spectrum, where we used to didn't.
We have STRB and the pay decisions for April, and now July seems to be the new normal, when we're almost into summer holidays and those governors and trustees who are responsible for budgets will be looking at those with their senior leaders as a result of this.
(29:30):
So you're absolutely right, it's completely unacceptable, and we do try and say that in any which way we can both work to officials, and it always comes back that it's in part Treasury's fault and it is indeed the way that they manage their accounts.
They can't do it any differently in terms of giving people a longer notice.
(29:54):
But it's something that absolutely needs to be fixed in the system, and what's playing out now is exactly the end result of having said this all of us for many, many years and having been no change.
So we're acutely aware that many of you will have more than one budget for next year, depending on what the pay rise looks like.
(30:23):
So one of the big findings in this year's survey, which again, as Sam said, longitudinal we've asked this every single year apart from, I think, one year when we were very much approaching a general election.
We've asked people what they felt about the government's past year's record and the response came back lower than ever.
(30:47):
Only 9% of respondents were happy with the way that the government has run education in England, and that is quite a remarkable finding when you think that you know governors and trustees do come from all walks of life and all parts of the political spectrum.
So the fact that they're telling us that, I think, is really symptomatic of the difficulties that schools and trusts find themselves in, which isn't necessary, or some of it may well come back to ideology, but some of it is absolutely about practice and the way that schools are being asked to solve a lot of problems that are coming from outside their gates, picking up issues that have arisen because other public services and other voluntary services are absolutely stretched and perhaps not as available and accessible to young people in their families as they used to be.
(31:49):
So, in the same way that leaders are now having to deal with, you know, a much broader spectrum of issues that feeds up to the governing boards, who are now talking about things that probably they never spoke about, even five, six, seven years ago, when the pressures were not quite as huge.
(32:10):
So, yes, we have just written to MPs as well, because, not having made headway with government ministers, we felt it was.
We've been urging our members, both directly in the newsletter and at our summer conference, to tell their stories to MPs, that they need to hear about your experience, they need to understand your expertise, and actually that was absolutely confirmed to me yesterday when I was in Westminster and a senior parliamentarian was asked what can we do to get the case across, and his answer was we need to hear your stories.
(32:55):
So that is really important.
If I can urge people, no matter what time of year it is but now is a very critical one to keep telling us, but also to keep telling your elected representatives as well.
(33:15):
So I think we've got two reports that we'd love you to read the one that Sam's been referring to, the interim report with the key findings of the survey and the full report will be available at the beginning of the term.
And then Emma talked about that report the learning from our national leaders of governance who the programme that we ran for the DFE for two years.
(33:41):
Sadly, they're not extending it past those two years and that reason for that was wholly about funding.
We're very disappointed about that, not just because we had a fantastic cadre of 70 very experienced national leaders of governance, but because those lessons that we've just been talked about will not necessarily be learnt and shared.
(34:04):
In the same way.
It will leave a big hole in terms of expertise and support for schools and boards that need it most.
So I don't know whether I've missed in that canter through all those Issues and is there anything that I Should have said that I that I haven't done?
(34:31):
Perhaps one thing is we want to celebrate and then we are new brand, which we're very Happy.
Happy about being a little bit more modern, or a lot more modern than the previous one, and Extremely and extremely colorful.
But each of you may have other things that you just want to include before we Sign off for the summer.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
I guess I would say I know Steve sort of has done a bit of a Refresh, of being strategic, and so there's a document there We've been driving people to.
But the second, the second top issue and it's very timely Was about boards making sure they really own their vision and that they're Involved in guiding and driving the strategic direction of their trust or school.
(35:21):
So I suppose it's kind of the the time is now.
So, if you aren't doing it already, one of the biggest lessons we can learn from the external reviews of governance that the NLG's have undertaken Is to really take that step back, take that time and make sure that your vision is really clear and that it's really owned by your whole school community and driven forward by you as governors and trustees, ready for sort of beating the ground running in September.
(35:51):
That's kind of, I suppose, my end of year play, based off the research.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
And that's really well said, emma, because I think we we've been talking For the last few minutes about schools being in survival mode more than strategic mode, and that's just the times we're in.
But I think what what came came out of the process of refreshing the being strategic guidance and and all the conversations that I was privileged to have with With different people in the sector about our approach to that and since we've launched it, the the conversations We've got we had at conference, for example, the other week is that those boards that, in good times and bad, embrace strategy development as a discipline and work as a team To embed a vision through strategy, as you were saying, really transform outcomes and the lives of children and young people.
(36:46):
I think you know, I don't think we can overstate just how transformative that process is and life changing it is, and so Don't lose sight of it.
I think he's a very he's a very good Message and a very good reminder for everyone, listening and including ourselves, because we all govern too.
And Just looking forward, can I?
(37:08):
Can I mention something that I can't remember some you'll be able to help me out here Whether this is featured as much in this year survey as it did in the previous years.
But that's just the state of our school buildings Right now.
It was a shocking report released last week where 70,000 pupils, I think it estimated, have been educated in buildings that aren't aren't fit for purpose, and you know that's.
(37:36):
That's a legacy again of under investment and Treasury.
The DFE Estimates it's going to cost the best part, or more than five billion pounds to bring buildings in In England schools up to scratch, and I think they get currently get around three billion.
So it's quite easy to understand where the problem is coming from.
(37:56):
But what surprises me really, so we don't hear more from our members about this and about this issue directly?
I know we and it's not we don't.
We don't hear at all, and I just have a thing that this is an issue coming down a track for us, really that we're going to be Discussing a lot with our members.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
That I might be wrong, but I think you're right, steve, and so we.
We asked a very specific question about this this year in the survey which Will it's born detail in the final report In September.
But just as a bit of a headline finding and yeah, absolutely.
(38:36):
This is a growing issue and it's something that more people are telling us about and it's taking more Time on their boards discussing it.
I think probably the key thing is people want a bit more Indication of what they meant to do about it, which you know very much.
For those what you just said interestingly as well, we we're gonna be doing more on this and Including a webinar later on the year as well.
(39:05):
So if that is a topic that is and you know you want to hear more about, make sure you tune into that, that webinar that we're going to be doing in the autumn term.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Absolutely, and you please do always talk just in any which way, whether it be at events and by email or yeah, give us a ring.
We always want to hear about how things are playing out In your area, because it will be different from other people's Contacts.
(39:36):
So, on that note of looking forward to September, we have some changes here at NGA and I will be job sharing the post of chief executive with Emma Bolton from September and, as I begin my my final year at NGA, which has been a very, very long time 14 years, I hope I hope well spent.
(40:01):
So it will be a absolute privilege to share that role with Emma.
But we also have other news.
Very Well, sadly, sadly for for us, steve, after four and a half years with us as director of rise and guidance, is moving on to past, is new, and Steve has made a huge, huge contribution to the leadership here and absolutely been in charge of so many of our flagship pieces of of guidance and helping shape Governance.
(40:44):
Actually, that's our.
That's a bit of a strap line, isn't it?
Shaping stronger governance, shaping good, good, good governance, and Steve's definitely been in the business of that.
So this, this really is, um, oh, I was about to say the last goodbye from you, steve, which sounds rather melodramatic.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Melodramatic, but I thought I would hand over to you to say a bit of a goodbye well, thank you for that, Emma, and yeah, it's a strange, it's a strange feeling to be moving on.
I really am going to miss these conversations, however bleak they they become.
With that, we always find an optimistic and cheery note, and that's that's what I love about them.
(41:28):
So I'll miss these conversations.
I'm absolutely going to miss my colleagues at NGA and our wonderful members as well.
You know, it's been a huge privilege to Meet and spend time with our members, whether that's events or in our many networks, governance professional networks so you would send networks, networks through the funding, many more Uh.
(41:51):
So it's just been the most um, wonderful privilege to spend time with people who do so much day in, day out, day in and day out on behalf of others, uh, and to talk to them about their experiences and learn from them as well, and so I'd like to thank them for that.
That the you know the?
Uh for giving, being so given of their time.
And I think you've said emery in the past, who describes the governance community as a, as a formidable force for good and a vital part of the specific fabric of our country, and I don't think I could put that any better myself, and I'm really sad to be leaving a job that supports Our wonderful members and the wonderful governance community, but I won't.
(42:39):
I'm still going to be part of that, that community.
I will still remain as a governor and a trustee, and that's something that's very important to me.
Um, so I I'd just like to say thanks to NGA, first of all, for very much for the opportunity, but, above all, thanks to to all our members and everyone who governs for for all that you do.
(43:00):
Uh, for our children and young people, it means a lot.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Yeah, really, really well said, Steve.
I think that's a brilliant night on which to um leave this discussion and from all of us, and yeah, I think we absolutely Uh always want to thank you for for your time and and your, your care Um in this incredibly important role that that you pay.
So thank you.
(43:24):
I hope Um, despite budgetary issues, you're gonna get some good time off Um this summer, so please um enjoy and we'll um see you again in September.
That's goodbye from all four of us.
(44:04):
You.
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