October 12, 2022 • 47 mins
Making EdTech work for you
In this month’s podcast, Steve Edmonds and Nina Sharma explored the increasing prevalence and reliance on technology in our schools and classrooms. We wanted to find out how those who are governing keep pace with these developments and ensure that technology is being used effectively.
Steve and Nina were joined by Al Kingsley, Chair of trustees, Hampton Academies Trust and group CEO, NetSupport and Julie Carson, Director of Education at Woodland Academy Trust who gave us their expert view on the impact of technology in schools, particularly during the lockdown as well as looking at how boards can test the robustness of new proposals.
You can read Al’s piece for SchoolsWeek on how to save money by tailoring your tech here https://schoolsweek.co.uk/budget-crisis-how-to-save-money-by-tailoring-your-tech/
If you want to find out more about Julie’s experience at Woodland Academy Trust, you can watch a short video here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHF39HAIQj4 and read a case study here. https://academia.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Spotlight-Stories-Woodland-Academy-Trust-FV21.pdf
You can find out more about NGA membership at www.nga.org.uk/membership, our webinars free to join, you can find all of our webinars at www.nga.org.uk/webinars
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Governing Chatters, NGA's regular podcast series.
My name is Steve Edmonds, and in this episode, I'm joined by my colleague, Nina Sharma.
Hi, Nina.
Hi, Steve.
Nina.
I don't think we've done a podcast together before.
So I'm pleased we have this opportunity now and that we have this opportunity to discuss something that we take a close interest in.
(00:32):
And I know that many governing boards do.
And that's the role of technology.
Or ed tech.
If you like.
In our schools and how it's utilized to benefit what we want to achieve for our children and young people.
So lots for us to get into and unpick, certainly from a governing perspective, because boards have a role in ensuring that a tech and the use of their tech in schools fits our strategy, whether that's for improving teaching and learning or providing a curriculum for the future or collaborating with our communities and building those links.
(01:09):
So it's really important that we use tech well in schools and that we make sure, as governing boards, that the money we spend on technology is invested wisely and indeed, on the right.
Kit and I'm delighted that we're joined by two guests with great insight into this topic and first hand experience in navigating some of these issues.
(01:32):
So welcome, Julie
Al.
I'm going to let you introduce yourselves and say a little bit about yourselves before handing back to Nina for our conversation on ittech.
So, Julie, welcome.
Hi, I'm delighted to be here.
So, I'm Julie Carson.
I'm Director of Education at the Woodland Academy Trust, which is a multiacademy trust of four primary schools across Bethley and Kent, with a fifth one opening in September.
(01:58):
We serve around 1800 children and have higher than average PPG.
It's around 49%.
We've just been designated as Apple Regional Training Center for Kent and Bexley.
Before taking up my role as Director of Education, I was a head teacher and executive head teacher for over 13 years, originally working in the Northwest.
As part of my role, I lead the digital strategy, and it's an absolute passion of mine.
(02:18):
And welcome.
Al.
Hi there, folks.
Yes.
Hi.
I'm Al Kingsley.
I normally introduce myself as a man of two hats.
So on the Ed tech side, 30 years as an Ed Tech CEO developing solutions for schools around the world.
On the school side.
I'm a multi academy trust chair.
I'm chair of an Alternative provision academy.
Also sit on the regional schools directors advisory board for the east of England.
(02:40):
And alongside that, history in governance.
I'm also the author of The New School Governance Handbook, which tries to make some of these topics much simpler and more accessible.
Yeah.
Thank you, Steve.
And thank you, Allen.
Julie, it's great to have you on this podcast.
It's been a really exciting topic that Steve and I have been really engaged in over the past year or so and more so because it goes without saying that the pandemic has really exacerbated the need for Ed tech and it's really shown sort of the opportunities and the windows that can open in terms of education.
(03:15):
Teaching learning and how it can really amplify people's experiences in education.
And I think it goes without saying that there was a real spotlight place during the start of Cobid and that really showed just the sheer number of peoples and families who don't have access to technology, that didn't have access to WiFi to engage in that learning.
(03:38):
That should be a basic right in my opinion.
I'll start with you, Julie.
So how have you seen the most impact within your school using Ed tech? And what sort of monitoring, what sort of monitoring have you put in place? Certainly we've seen it in quite a lot of different places, so we've seen improved collaboration from staff and pupils.
(04:02):
So for instance, staff will come together and work together on particular projects across the trust.
We've collated CPD needs using Edtech as well to create our annual CPD program and pupils using applications such as paddle or Waitlist can share their ideas, making sure all pupils have a voice.
So no longer is that quite person who doesn't particularly want to put their hand up, not able to share their thoughts.
(04:25):
We've seen improved accessibility, so we use iPads and they can be set for individualized use or the people can be taught how to set them for their use.
Got used of reading tools as part of that which enables children to access their work independently.
Translation tools which we've used for children and families starting school with EAL and then speech detective tools for those children who really struggle getting word on the paper.
(04:47):
We've seen improved pedagogy, so conversations have been very much around universal design for learning.
So it's a way of thinking about teaching and learning that helps give all students an equal opportunity to succeed, which is far more than just using tech in a lesson.
So it's thinking about how is tech used and what is the pedagogical approach of a particular lesson and learning development.
(05:07):
We've seen improved assessments so children can explain their answers easily through voice recordings, so we can understand their thought process and pick up misconceptions.
As a teacher, you know where each child is up to during the lesson, again being able to dive straight into the misconceptions rather than waiting for the end of the lesson.
We use quizzing tools so that teachers get immediate feedback and can adapt the lesson in response to this quickly.
(05:29):
And then children can access feedback more easily so they don't need to read comments in books, they can listen to verbal comments and then play them back to understand the points being made.
We've seen a flexible approach to teaching, so it's no longer that traditional model of a teacher standing at the front of the classroom and delivering.
They can move around the classroom, share work from their iPads or from the children's iPads for everybody to see and discuss.
(05:51):
We can create video, the model things step by step so that children can play them back if they're struggling with on division, we create a video, they can replay it and replay it and replay it rather than somebody having to explain it kind of five or six times.
There's more time spent on teaching, so not having to spend time giving out sheets, sticking in sheets, losing sheets, hunting for lost sheets.
(06:11):
And the children can access their learning straight away.
It's reduction in teacher workload.
So they're able to spend more time on planning and pedagogy because they're no longer standing at the photocopier and making individualized resources and there's less time on marketing and feedback for staff as well, especially around assessments.
I think the final thing really is around unleashing creativity.
(06:31):
So if you think about some of those additional teaching and learning approaches, some result in the learning being closed to children and you're marking or judging their writing skills rather than their understanding of other parts, such as scientific knowledge.
So for instance, we've seen some children be able to record animations or movies around the solar system rather than writing a leaflet.
(06:54):
So we've really understood what the scientific learning is on that point.
Our vision is to ignite the spark and reveal the champion.
And our use of ed tech is doing just that.
So we're discovering talents in some of our children that we didn't know that they had.
They're some are particularly talented at coding or filmmaking and the same staff actually as well.
They're shining when we hadn't realized they had those skills.
And I know in discussion with other leaders outside of our trust before this summer, they were worried about the impact on writing.
(07:20):
However, we were moderated across all of our schools this year and our writing outcomes are significantly above national averages in key stage one and two.
And in one of our schools, the use of tech to support writing was commented on really positively by the external moderators.
Yeah, that sounds amazing and I guess there's a bit of pressure there for yourself to make sure you're getting it right away, not allowing any room for error in those sorts of situations.
(07:45):
So how did you sort of ensure that the technology that you were putting into your school was the right one? We did lots of research to start with, so we spoke to other schools who took different approaches.
We read research papers around impact and then we trialed it.
So rather than it's such an expensive resource at Tech, we needed to make sure it was right and was going to have the impact.
(08:09):
So we started off with a small number of iPads in each school to try to see what was possible.
And then when we realized that was the right approach for us, then that's when we upscaled and put in the rest of the support.
Brilliant.
And Al, I'm going to turn to you really quickly, but with your sort of governance perspective as well as your 30 years in Ed tech outlook, what impact have you seen in using Edtech with the schools that you've been involved in? I suppose the really quick and easy answer is what she said, because Julie's covered so many different strands there.
(08:45):
I think the first thing is that concept of from adversity comes strength.
And I think when we think about within our trust, one of the first things was naturally there's been an acceleration or a conversation around the role of digital in our schools and where it can have a possible impact.
And I think up until a couple of years ago, that was quite a siloed approach.
(09:05):
And what we first of all found was we had much more focus and collaboration across our schools and between departments about things that work, things that didn't work.
So we first of all really accelerated the role of a digital strategy.
Some call it a digital vision and some it's just into open into stuff that's already ongoing.
But what it did was allow us to have a broader conversation with a lot more stakeholders.
(09:27):
And from that we kind of also have the ability from a governance level to ask those kind of key questions, what we're trying to achieve, why are we doing it, and also how are we going to measure its impact? And I think that measure of impact has shifted from purely the student curriculum outcomes to thinking more about wellbeing timesaving communication, home school communication within our schools.
(09:49):
Technology absolutely has really kind of come to the fore.
And I think some of the points Julian made really resonated.
One of the biggest ones was actually the flagbearers who are the go to people across our schools that have competence and confidence in certain technology.
And actually that unlocked the will of other teachers to give stuff a try because they felt there were other resources they could go to other than perhaps YouTube and obviously other resources included, but it gave people a chance to actually embed more.
(10:20):
Now, ironically, for someone who is very passionate about Ed tech, one of our strategies was less is more.
Don't try and do too many things too quickly.
And much like Julie did with dip the toe in the water, see if it actually works before you scale.
We tried the same thing.
So as an office 365 trust, the main trust uncharol for us, we wanted to make sure we really embedded an understanding on the effective use of teams and OneNote and how that could be interwoven.
(10:44):
And then we started looking at actually capturing across our trust those exemplars both from a curriculum point of view for students and signposting them in a central repository, but also starting to build those resources for staff using the technology in place.
Then as we've had more children back in in certain areas.
If we think right down to our EYFS and key stage one children.
(11:05):
We have a learning journey bus where we use iPads, but we use augmented reality resources to actually stimulate creative ideas and feed that into creative writing.
We use VR headsets.
We use different tools that allow the capturing of student progress and activities both in the classroom as we would do as part of UFS, but also during lockdown for parents to capture and share back to the school.
(11:28):
Observations of children's activities may not have been directly aligned to the curriculum, but it allowed that kind of conduit of communication and feedback for our old children across our all through or secondary schools.
Within our map, we saw the role of AI by based personalized learning apps that allowed children to develop whether it was their math skills or their science skills and really embed and stretch those more able learners but take them back a few steps to kind of build some confidence for those otherwise, not to replace teaching and learning, but to complement as another strand.
(12:00):
The communication within the trust, I think is huge and I think many trust will share that.
Actually, one of the biggest benefits of technology has been to really improve that conduit between school and parents.
And that started with parental training and familiarity with the tools that we use and how they impact.
But, you know, the anecdotal will all say about how sometimes the online parents evenings have been far better to manage in terms of time engagement with hard to reach families, but also good for staff well being in terms of managing that overhead.
(12:29):
But that same approach has allowed us to have much greater exposure of what we're doing, the tools we're using and why we're doing them.
And I suppose in the context of here today as governors and trustees thinking about that oversight.
Actually bringing the narrative around digital and why we're doing things and what we're doing to the table.
Whereas perhaps previously it's been a bit of an item seven on the agenda that we might get to or it's been simply wrapped up in a signing off on a policy about technology or digital privacy and so on.
(12:58):
So I think there's been huge areas, but it's absolutely not been a competition to who's doing the most is by association doing the best.
Yeah, I think that's really interesting, that point you've just made about governing oversight, because I do sense that there is a change in approach that boards are taking now.
(13:23):
I think they are taking a more strategic view.
It is less oversight and I think there are more strategic conversations about harnessing and unleashing the powers of tech to make teaching better, learning more engaging and improving outcomes.
Or as you say but I still think it's probably because governance is a diverse activity.
(13:48):
We come from all sectors of society and that's what we want to encourage and not all of us.
I can include myself in this.
I have an interesting tech, but I'm not techminded.
I don't have a tech teaching background either, so I'm not sure I'm one of those governors or trustees who feels really confident about testing the robustness of tech proposals and tech partners.
(14:11):
So you got any tips for me? Someone like me where he wants to engage but not quite sure at what level? At a very high level.
I don't think you need to have any technology skills to ask the questions of what are we doing, why are we doing it, and how we're going to measure impact.
In the same way as you can come onto a governing body or a trust board with an experience in finance and still have an active role to play in school improvement.
(14:33):
How can we help you? What are you doing? What does that mean? Why are we doing it that way? And I think everybody has a voice to play.
Now we see some of the biggest challenges over the last couple of years have been about how children access technology.
We've talked about the concerns over digital policy, parental engagement, and how parents can support keeping children safe online, the digital citizen angle.
(14:54):
So I think there are a whole raft of questions as a governing body and a particular trust board because as soon as we start talking digital strategy and that strategic word pops in, well, that's very much the realm of our members and our trustees.
We're talking strategically about digital as a lever, but actually our whole school priorities.
And our trust priorities now might be also focused on staff retention.
(15:16):
Well, digital isn't just about purely, well, of course, critically important, having an outcome and lever on children's outcomes, but it's also about allowing staff to work more effectively, freeing up time, making better visibility of data.
So the questions around the technology we use, how do we know it's used effectively? How do we know that's the right choices? How can we assist you? Have we seen any benefits from deployment of this? What's the feedback from staff? Are we happy that our parents understand the technology we use? And then from our personnel safeguarding stream, we might be saying how do we know we're taking appropriate steps under kixie and beyond about keeping our children safe, the technology they're using? How are we finding if we are time to weave in that digital citizenship as part because that's far more important than the tools to prevent it's faculty to educate.
(16:05):
So I think there's a whole raft of questions without having a tech background that governing bodies can be raising and including as part of the conversation, hopefully just to be the support and enabler to the leadership team to do what they've already planned.
Yeah, and we talked about you're talking about there, sorry, the importance of having a more holistic view, not just focusing entirely unleashing tech in the classroom.
(16:33):
And I was taken by something that you wrote in Schools Week this week about from a more broader perspective and certainly in these difficult financial climate, about ensuring that more highly effective ways and of improving our technology use or improving our technology use and making it as effective as it can be.
(16:57):
And in that piece you talked about audits, conducting a thorough tech audit.
So I wonder if you could say a little bit more about that.
And I'd like to get Julie's take on that as well, about how in her trust, the schools ensures that you're future proofing what you're doing and you're maximizing the impact of the resource available.
(17:21):
Absolutely.
I mean, the brief responses, the more efficiently we operate our infrastructure, the more money there is in the pot for the important bit of teaching and learning.
That's the kind of the fundamental.
So I always tend to start by saying when you're looking at a digital strategy, you need to look backwards before you look forward.
And in essence, what that means is what technology have we already got? How well is it being used? Have we got loads of devices sitting dust in a cupboard or could they be relocated somewhere else? Have we got software subscriptions that we're renewing every year? But actually two years ago we signed up to a different type of solution in the curriculum that could save us money if we're looking to implement tablets in our classrooms.
(17:57):
Do we know what our current infrastructure is, our switches and WiFi access points? Have we got the capacity? Because what we don't want to do is invest on one path and find the infrastructure fails or more importantly.
Have to take a conversation to leadership about I'd like some of more of these in the classroom where potentially you could have the evidence of saying.
Well.
We've been using these for the last year and we know it works well because so I think that reassurance many teachers will say that they know by instinct.
(18:23):
By is and eyes those most important things.
What's working well.
But the audit of all those devices gives us a sight of knowing which areas we could build on, but also understanding what the upcoming cost implications might be.
Yes.
Julie, what's your take on assets and devices throughout your trust and how you ensure that those assets and devices are future proof, essentially, and doing what you need them to do for your pupils? So, yeah, we took a similar approach to Al and I think the thing for us now is making sure that we're mapping going forward.
(18:59):
So we did the audit, we looked at infrastructure, et cetera, but now, because we're going one to one, what we've got to be really clear on is there's no point going one to one, but then in three years time we can't afford the next class to be one to one or actually these devices are too old.
So we've got a financial plan linked to that to make sure that the affordability continues.
(19:19):
I think the other aspect as well, and it's really interesting what you're saying before about the devices that we no longer use.
So some of them you can resell.
So we've gone through our old devices.
So we have a stock of iPads, and probably when they were first brought out that we've looked at, we've resold and reinvested that into our tech as well.
(19:40):
So rather than sitting in a cupboard for 15 years or so, which is so easily done, it's actually is there any residual value left in those? What can we sell them for? How can we make sure that's put back into our current position? Yeah, that sounds great.
And I think there's something really interesting within all of this.
I think as we grow in a world where you've got social media, and it's inevitable really, that you've got your pupils and young people engaging in this sort of technology, regardless of whether it's in your school or not, how you want to develop those people to be a good digital citizen, like day to day in person.
(20:18):
But there's a really big thing there, and I was just wondering if you could reflect slightly on it and talk a little bit more about it, about what it means to be a digital citizen and how schools are benefiting the future generation, so to speak.
Absolutely, yeah.
I mean, I think it all starts in the primaries, and primary schools are very good at building that awareness and building the digital leaders, often in schools through programs or just as part of that curriculum play, but understanding how children can model to other children best practice and behavior, how they communicate, keeping themselves safe, the implications of sharing something online and what that means.
(20:55):
I think as we get older and we think I often talk about from a secondary perspective, the last few years we've had these perfect examples, whether it's that be brexit word or whether it's elections in north America, where we need to actually educate young people about actually the skills to question the validity of information, the source of information, but also to model how they communicate.
(21:17):
A term that's often referenced talking about this topic is digital inhibition, which roughly translates to when we communicate online, many people tend to act in a way very different to the way they might do face to face.
So teaching and modeling and understanding around how we communicate online, and the bigger implications of data privacy, that ripple effect the concerns there's been about digital online bullying.
(21:42):
There are so many strands, and of course, things like kixie give us the guidelines in terms of the tools and measures to put in place to keep our children safe online.
But I would always argue the most important tool is education, rather than the tool that filters.
So most schools are very aware of this.
As always, the usual pressure and challenge is the time to squeeze all these different strands into an ever growing curriculum breadth.
(22:04):
But I think it all starts at primaries and many are absolutely already flying the flag in terms of we add more technology, therefore we've got to add greater emphasis on keeping children safe with it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think comes off of that is how you've spoken about engagement with stakeholders as well.
I know there's lots of elements that play a part, but Julie, could you sort of share about how your experiences of getting stakeholder by more so parents and buying in on Ed Tech, considering things like safeguarding and mental health concerns with technology as well as sort of the educational element of that? Yes.
(22:42):
So we've involved our parents right from the start of the journey.
So right from that first trial, we explained to parents what we were doing.
We held Robins for them to come and have a look.
We invited them into the classroom so they could see the benefits of the Ed tech being used on their children's learning.
We did workshops for them as well.
So I think one of the barriers where some of our parents was they didn't know how to use an iPad.
(23:05):
So you straightaway have that fear you were saying out before about that inhibition as well.
If you don't understand it, you don't want to use it and then you're worried about it.
So we did workshops right from the basics up to the wall, kind of complex things about your childhood and garage band at the moment.
Let's do a workshop for you so that you can have a go and have those conversations with them.
We've signed posts to things like our Apple Store and some of the classes that they put on for children and parents as well, which we've had some great involvement in with some of our parents.
(23:33):
We're very lucky because we're right near Blue Water actually, so it's quite easy to access for some of our parents.
But also we've involved them in the digital strategy and we've linked that to some of the safeguarding works.
We've had safeguarding dropin specifically linked to a tech.
So if they're particularly worried about what their child's seeing online, we've supported them with how to access support for that barriers to put in place, kind of all those boundaries well, because that's something that parents struggle with and we've kept them updated with impact as well.
(24:05):
So, you know, we've had this trial, this has been the impact, we're extending this, this has been the impact.
And I think just the passion from the children when you talk to them about Ed tech as well, and they take that home and they see some of the amazing things that they do has really supported our parents in the accessibility side.
That is so inspiring, really, to see how you're thinking strategically and you're taking an approach that helps parents have that clear understanding of not only what the tech is and how it's used, but also the expectations that you have of pupils and how you're helping and supporting them to be the best that they can be.
(24:48):
And that engagement can only benefit Khan Tick not just the pupils, but the wider community as well.
But I wanted to go back, Julie, and just ask you about the staff in your trust at all levels, because you spoke earlier about just the impact that tech has had on them, not just in terms of reducing their workload, which is something all of us governing are very much preoccupied by.
(25:19):
It's a big issue for us, ensuring that staff workload is sustainable, but also building the confidence and skills of staff as well.
And I think it's well known, it's an established narrative that within a large organization like a trust or a school, there will be inevitably differences in staff confidence and capability when it comes to using tech.
(25:45):
And that must be a challenge in terms of structuring and delivering CPD and ensuring that has the impact.
So how do you go about how have you gone about an organization with a diverse family of schools tackling that? That's a really good question.
So, right at the beginning, I was mentioning before that you take one or two things and you work on those.
(26:08):
And that's what we started with.
We started with a really clear program of CPD, and we've had that in place for the last three years, where everybody was accessing the same CPD, started working on particular apps, embedded them for one year, working on different apps, embedded them for the next year.
And then what we've moved to now, because everybody has had the same basic training, is a coaching model.
(26:31):
So we have an assistant head for digital who works across the trust, and he goes and co plans with staff and then team teaches with staff, models, lessons with staff.
So we've put that investment in there because we know that for the Edtech work properly, we've got to invest in other aspects, not just the actual devices.
So that then is very much tailored to the needs of individual staff.
(26:55):
I'll mentioned around Digital Champions, in each school we've got members of staff and pupils who are Digital Champions.
To be honest, the pupils can use the iPad far better than I can.
There models of good practice so other members of staff can go in and watch them teach.
And it always comes back to those conversations around, how are you using Ed tech to make the learning better? And I think I'll mention before, it's not using it all the time.
(27:18):
You know, you might only use it week, but it's about those key children or those key aspects being enhanced.
But it has really been around that tailored CPD approach.
And that's what we've done this year, captured CPD, put in.
Support worked with an Apple professional learning specialist to key members of staff.
And I think that dissemination then of having those really strong practitioners in school to support, that has worked well.
(27:44):
Yeah.
Now, from a governing perspective, I'm sure this is something that you stayed across in your governing roles.
When you've been speaking to staff about CPD generally and their own workload and well being and life in school, how important do you think it is for us governing to stay across that aspect of the strategy? I think it's key, I have to say.
(28:09):
The first thing is I really want to go to Julie schools because they sound amazing and I love the approach that she's taken.
But essentially I think the key is we need to recognize that the role of governance, trust, leadership, is not just about turning up for meetings, but actually in the same way as we would come in and we would observe in the primary school and understand how Phonics is being delivered or how we've been delivering broader student enrichment.
(28:32):
The same applies.
The role of Ed tech is just another tool in the toolkit, but you need to be embedded as part of that.
And I think the most important role we have as overarching leadership in the trust is to be facilitators and enablers.
Actually, if you understand, you get involved, you can support.
And we talk about the critical friend, but the last couple of years, rightly, so the friends needed to be the dominant factor, but actually by understanding, you can provide better support.
(28:57):
So I think when we think about CPD, these are transferable not just from education, but from any experience that you've got from the business world or any sector.
Frankly, that if we have an expectation that our strategy is simply built around when you've got time in the evenings, go watch some stuff, go listen to stuff, you know it's not going to work.
And the C is always the bit that gets dropped, the continuous part of the professional development.
(29:19):
When it comes to webtech, so often we'll get brand new interactive whiteboards and there'll be a training session on Inset day at the start of the academic year, and after that you're on your own.
Well, actually, that just gets you interested, but then puts you in that fear zone of I want to try stuff, but if it doesn't work, where do I go? So that concept like Julie's explained about really signposting and having that continuous development, we just found things like if we've got some new whiteboards in one of our schools and we had some training for it, why on earth weren't we recording it? So staff and all the other schools could access that training at any point? Or why don't we just pick up the phone and invite them? Frankly, that joined up.
(29:57):
Thinking in a different way has been really important and the more we can see that and the more we can get positive feedback about however small the steps are when moving in the right direction, then it builds confidence to invest further.
As much as there is a risk of surveying our staff to death.
And they've got plenty of other things to worry about.
(30:17):
That regular litmus test of key questions how confidence levels are with technology, how is it improving? And to students, I might add, each year you've got a reference point then of whether we're moving in the right direction.
And again, I think governors have an obligation to make it clear this isn't a case of we'll set a date and by this time we must be a digitally amazing school because frankly, they don't know what that word means in that context.
(30:42):
But it's about each year within a revise and review how well things are going, how we can facilitate and help and have a sense of what we need to plan.
And it might be we're aligning with a broader think of the white paper recently, a broader trust plan about expansion and growth.
We need to get to a critical mass of size, of multi academy trust.
(31:03):
Well, in that context we might be thinking about actually, let's add to that strategy about tools that are agnostic and are scalable, that would allow easy inclusion of another school into our ecosystem.
And so if you're not aware of that, you can't do the broader strategic planning conversations that you need to have at school or trust level.
(31:23):
Yeah, I can absolutely see that.
And I think that is such an important part of creating that sort of one organization mentality.
And the feeling of a group of schools are part of something that's bigger than their individual, greater than the sum of their parts, so to speak.
(31:49):
And something occurred to me when you were speaking about organizational join up and both talking about empowering staff and building confidence.
And that's the role of tech partners in strategy because that's a big decision, isn't it? That's a big, potentially a big procurement decision that will that will exercise governors or something I have to think about carefully any thoughts or advice on how a board can look at a proposal to work with a tech partner and how to go about that process at leadership level? Don't know if that question was phrased particularly well, but I think you get the essence of what I'm asking.
(32:37):
I get the gist.
This should take me no longer than 3 hours to respond.
Grab your popcorn.
Yes, clearly it's a really important strategic decision, a tech partner.
And the first thing which is really important is you either investing in technology where it's a transaction, you connect with a vendor, you select a product, you buy it, and thank you very much.
In which case there's the first warning flag that's not the way we work in education.
(33:00):
It should be we start a relationship because actually a good tech partner is adapting constantly based on the feedback and you can't have the feedback from the school with the relationship and if the partner is the one creating the products, it should be shaping the improvements and future features of their products.
That's a win win for both parties.
Coproduction is key in education.
What I always say is when we're looking at big solutions and additions into schools we need to follow.
(33:25):
I often share a rubric and I won't go into all the steps but basically split into two halves.
There is the consideration from a technology perspective and there's a consideration from a curriculum and pedagogy perspective and of course it's weighted differently depending on the kind of solution.
So from a tech perspective we're going to be thinking about that technology.
How does it align with our current infrastructure, our devices that we use? But also is it sufficiently agnostic that it would allow us to scale? As we look at potentially adding new solutions we might then be asking about making sure that it what the implications on our current infrastructure? Are we making a commitment for some great devices or software or a change of mis? But actually in doing so we've got a new hidden cost of our infrastructure.
(34:07):
We'll also be thinking about privacy policy, governance would be thinking about whether is this new tech partner based in Mongolia and is there any considerations about data storage and implications of that? We might also be thinking about that integration.
So in America we often use the term rostering.
Here in the UK we'll be thinking about how we do our student enrolment.
Are we joining up to new systems that are going to create another manual level of maintaining student information up to date? Given we have often lots of in years as often turns out in week movement with student cohorts.
(34:39):
And then in parallel we've got that pedagogy, that curriculum site which is do the solutions being offered actually align with our curriculum? Have we actually reviewed the content to be appropriate? A big one which sadly often occurs is have we not already got something that does this? And if we don't check we want to make sure that at the very least we unsubscribe from the other one.
(35:00):
That's where often hidden costs are.
And then the big one, which is very much the pedagogy at heart, is the solutions being offered? If we're thinking about more specifics, are we actually clear about its instructional benefit, its purpose? Have we actually have the educators around the table? Now I ask those questions before we go and spend time on the evaluation process and then we might be looking at the big hot topic in education, always has been in teaching and learning.
(35:26):
But in terms of ed, tech is evidence.
And it's not just that we've got a great shiny brochure that says these solutions will make your school amazing because that's not really going to be sufficient to convince someone like Julie that they want that solution.
It needs to go far beyond that, which is where's the evidence both from an evaluation perspective, from whether it's pedagogy and researchbased papers about the impact it has on outcomes, whether it's white papers from other schools.
(35:52):
And of course, now we've got this beautiful platform that are growth all the time, as we're doing today.
We've got podcasts, we've got webinars, we've got all sorts of events where you can reach out to your PLN and beyond and get firsthand experiences from others.
And because time is so valuable, those kind of checks go before you spend too much time actually investing in trialing it and taking up teacher time.
(36:14):
And that list is by no means exhaustive.
And I'm sure Julie's got others, but those are the kind of the start of the ten that I would be considering.
Yeah, it feels to me like it's the bedrock of any great collaboration and partnership, and first and foremost, it has to be a great structural and cultural fit and then everything then flows from that.
(36:35):
Would you agree with that, Judy? I mean, I know you've worked closely with Tech Partners.
What have you learned from that experience? I'm so pleased I'll start with the relationship aspect because I think that's one of the key points.
There are so many companies out there who will sell you iPads and then do exactly what you said.
I'll just go, Right, thanks very much.
You've got your money and off you go.
(36:56):
So we actually started with taking advice from our Apple regional manager because we knew we wanted to go down the Apple route.
So he put us in touch with some of the companies who were authorized Apple education specialists.
Then we could start to have conversations to check exactly that, about whether it fitted with our culture, our pedagogical approach.
And then we also explored with them as to what else they could offer us.
(37:20):
So could they fund Apple professional learning specialists to help us with our journey, for instance? And then in the procurement aspect, we also added in a procurement panel, so it wasn't just on the technical specifications and the cost of it, but it was around that, come and present to us, let us have a conversation, let us pick what you're actually telling us that we could understand whether they really were a good fit for us.
(37:42):
And I think it's also speaking to other people, some bit of due diligence work.
There's some great companies out there, but actually, when you speak to other schools where they've rolled them out, it's not been as the company has said, or they've mainly based in one part of the UK and not in our parts UK.
Well, that's no good for us.
We need people on the ground who can come in and support us with it.
Not somebody who's based in Northern Ireland, for instance.
(38:06):
Yeah.
And I think from what you've both said, it really sounds like there's a great need for transparency during this process, not only between senior leaders and your tech partner, but also through your different stakeholders, your people, your parents and your staff.
And I think with my governance hat on, me sitting on my board, I think one of the things I would be thinking about is what implications does this have once it's in place and it's working? Well, that's amazing.
(38:37):
But just before that, when you're getting into those sort of teeding areas and trying to get it all rolled out and get comfortable with everyone, I would probably be thinking about what implications does this have on staff well being and workload? What sort of indicators have you been using to manage that? And how have you kind of overcome any challenges where you've had people come back, your teachers and your staff come back and say, actually this isn't helping, or have you had that all? Has it been quite seamless? It's been quite seamless, I think because we've pasted it really slowly.
(39:15):
We haven't gone, here's the iPads, off you go, or we haven't gone, here's the iPads.
We expect you to be using them in all your lessons straightaway.
We have done over the last three years, focus on one area, then move to the next area.
When that's right, then move to the next area.
So no members of staff are being overwhelmed.
We have done Staff Questionnaires to capture impact and also within that it's around workloads and time spent on marketing, for instance, and time spent on planning.
(39:43):
We've also had those on the ground conversations because we're small trust of four schools and as a member of staff, particularly leaders who's in every school frequently, then he can capture any of that or have conversations.
And the rare occasion to member of Status Tenant is because they've really struggled with the implementation of it, which is when our assistant head for Digital has then gone in and has coplanned and co taught and modeled lessons to really support them so that they're not left on their own.
(40:13):
So I think we've been the way we structured it, we've tried to think about all of the pitfalls before we got to them and then as many have appeared because of our structure, we've been able to support staff with that straight away.
And have you found the sort of same reaction from your schools? Yes, I think so.
I think the key one, I always think when we're talking about how we make sure we get everybody on board and we focus about wellbeing and just frankly, confidence.
(40:41):
One of the things is we shouldn't be scared of technology.
I think whenever I've started conversations around Ed Tech, for a lot of people, there's that imposter syndrome, it's either the realm of the techie or it's the realm of the teacher.
And in reality these conversations are joined up, there's different strands and different viewpoints.
So actually, whereas perhaps you might find sometimes there's a natural persuasion for the It manager, the network manager, to start the conversation in a very technical way.
(41:08):
Lots of this is very simple and actually, if you've dumb it down to the simplest components, then everybody can be on board with that.
I've always found that actually, the more people who are involved in the conversation and the more people that you can actually share the logic of what we're trying to achieve and why we're doing it, then like any project, you bring people along on the journey rather than surprise them or drag them along with it.
(41:30):
And I think that's what leaders always have the biggest challenges of signposting and time they can spend to really make sure that everyone feels like they've been listened to and they understand where we're trying to go collectively as a school or a trust.
And that includes, of course, the parental engagement, that understanding.
The more we get stakeholders, it's always going to be a more productive process.
(41:52):
And that starts, I think, with governance being very clear to support the leadership with that.
Yeah, I think that's a really important message.
This is a conversation that we could just continue.
I think.
For hours and hours.
But I think as we draw to a close with a time that's available.
(42:17):
I wanted to ask you both.
Really.
If you had any sort of final thoughts on the board from a governing board perspective on how best to engage in this agenda.
But also where you think the biggest opportunities will be for our schools in the next two.
(42:39):
Three.
Five years.
Looking ahead to get the best out of tech and provide transformative solutions.
Whether that's to meet challenges or to achieve strategic objectives.
Because the one thing we do know for sure is that technology is constantly evolving, it's constantly changing, and with that brings opportunity.
(43:05):
So I wonder if you thought about that, you reflected on that.
So I'll start with you, Alex.
I can see you're not in a way there, so I guess you might have thought about what the next two or three years looks like and what the role we can play as boards.
I think across education, we can say the next few years is full of opportunities and full of challenges, and finding the yin and the yang on those two is really difficult.
(43:29):
The immediate opportunity, or potentially you could call it risk, is that we lose the muscle memory, we lose that focus around the effective use of digital and slide back to a prepandemic position where it's an emergency tool rather than naturally interwoven into the fabric of our future learning.
I think if we move forward, we can either look at technology as a way to help mitigate through economies of scales and efficiency, some of the operational costs of our schools and multicademy trust.
(43:57):
And given the financial pressures that might help keep a little bit more.
I think strategically one of the biggest challenges we have in our schools, and that is actually staff recruitment and retention.
And so we are fools if we don't consider how technology can help lighten the load for our teaching workforce.
And there's lots of examples already being shared today, but all of those strands are important when we start building those marginal gains for us as a trust.
(44:23):
And then the final bit is absolutely do what we're doing today and others are doing, which is to continue digital journey.
Don't always just look inwards, look outwards, listen to others, find out other best practice, other schools are doing amazing things and do what schools do best, which is share.
Indeed.
Indeed.
Julie, I think for us, and I was just mentioning about teacher recruitment and retention, the biggest opportunities is about getting into it, to initial teacher training and sharing what you're doing.
(44:56):
So that will help with recruitment.
And we found that we've worked with University of Greenwich, so we've had more staff apply for any of our roles this year.
So being able to shape our future generations of teachers is really key.
And I think someone shared with me as well the most dangerous proof in education, which is we've always done it that way.
So it's stopping and thinking about why we're doing it that way, how are we going to change it, what's the best way of impacting? And that's something that govern us to really play a key role in as we're moving forward with this.
(45:30):
Yes, what a lovely way to end.
And I think what I've got from this conversation, more than anything else, it's just a real feel for the ambition that you both have, for the schools that you work with and you're involved in, and for the children and young people and the communities, the communities that you serve.
(45:55):
But more than that, how you're thinking about ed tech in those terms? Your first thought is actually, how can we maximize the use of tech to benefit our pupils, our young people, our communities, as a first principle? And I think it goes back to something you were saying earlier about actually for those of us who govern, who perhaps feel a little bit daunted by this topic because of the technical aspect of it and the constant change, particularly those of us who are a little older.
(46:29):
I'll put that out there.
It's really great that you brought us back to those first principles and have challenged us really to think strategically about making the most of those opportunities.
So I thank you both for your time and for your great insight.
(46:49):
It's been wonderful talking to you.
It's been great having you with me as well, Nina, and enjoy.
We don't make this the last podcast we do together.
Let's hope we do another one together soon.
But thanks everyone.
And thank you to everyone listening who's joined us.
(47:10):
I hope that if nothing else, we've inspired you at a future Governing Board meeting to open up a conversation about how your schools and trusts are using technology and making the most of it for what we want for our children and young people.
So thanks for joining us on Governing Chapters, and we look forward to joining you again soon.
Bye.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Governing Chatters, NGA's regular podcast series.
My name is Steve Edmonds, and in this episode, I'm joined by my colleague, Nina Sharma.
Hi, Nina.
Hi, Steve.
Nina.
I don't think we've done a podcast together before.
So I'm pleased we have this opportunity now and that we have this opportunity to discuss something that we take a close interest in.
(00:32):
And I know that many governing boards do.
And that's the role of technology.
Or ed tech.
If you like.
In our schools and how it's utilized to benefit what we want to achieve for our children and young people.
So lots for us to get into and unpick, certainly from a governing perspective, because boards have a role in ensuring that a tech and the use of their tech in schools fits our strategy, whether that's for improving teaching and learning or providing a curriculum for the future or collaborating with our communities and building those links.
(01:09):
So it's really important that we use tech well in schools and that we make sure, as governing boards, that the money we spend on technology is invested wisely and indeed, on the right.
Kit and I'm delighted that we're joined by two guests with great insight into this topic and first hand experience in navigating some of these issues.
(01:32):
So welcome, Julie
Al.
I'm going to let you introduce yourselves and say a little bit about yourselves before handing back to Nina for our conversation on ittech.
So, Julie, welcome.
Hi, I'm delighted to be here.
So, I'm Julie Carson.
I'm Director of Education at the Woodland Academy Trust, which is a multiacademy trust of four primary schools across Bethley and Kent, with a fifth one opening in September.
(01:58):
We serve around 1800 children and have higher than average PPG.
It's around 49%.
We've just been designated as Apple Regional Training Center for Kent and Bexley.
Before taking up my role as Director of Education, I was a head teacher and executive head teacher for over 13 years, originally working in the Northwest.
As part of my role, I lead the digital strategy, and it's an absolute passion of mine.
(02:18):
And welcome.
Al.
Hi there, folks.
Yes.
Hi.
I'm Al Kingsley.
I normally introduce myself as a man of two hats.
So on the Ed tech side, 30 years as an Ed Tech CEO developing solutions for schools around the world.
On the school side.
I'm a multi academy trust chair.
I'm chair of an Alternative provision academy.
Also sit on the regional schools directors advisory board for the east of England.
(02:40):
And alongside that, history in governance.
I'm also the author of The New School Governance Handbook, which tries to make some of these topics much simpler and more accessible.
Yeah.
Thank you, Steve.
And thank you, Allen.
Julie, it's great to have you on this podcast.
It's been a really exciting topic that Steve and I have been really engaged in over the past year or so and more so because it goes without saying that the pandemic has really exacerbated the need for Ed tech and it's really shown sort of the opportunities and the windows that can open in terms of education.
(03:15):
Teaching learning and how it can really amplify people's experiences in education.
And I think it goes without saying that there was a real spotlight place during the start of Cobid and that really showed just the sheer number of peoples and families who don't have access to technology, that didn't have access to WiFi to engage in that learning.
(03:38):
That should be a basic right in my opinion.
I'll start with you, Julie.
So how have you seen the most impact within your school using Ed tech? And what sort of monitoring, what sort of monitoring have you put in place? Certainly we've seen it in quite a lot of different places, so we've seen improved collaboration from staff and pupils.
(04:02):
So for instance, staff will come together and work together on particular projects across the trust.
We've collated CPD needs using Edtech as well to create our annual CPD program and pupils using applications such as paddle or Waitlist can share their ideas, making sure all pupils have a voice.
So no longer is that quite person who doesn't particularly want to put their hand up, not able to share their thoughts.
(04:25):
We've seen improved accessibility, so we use iPads and they can be set for individualized use or the people can be taught how to set them for their use.
Got used of reading tools as part of that which enables children to access their work independently.
Translation tools which we've used for children and families starting school with EAL and then speech detective tools for those children who really struggle getting word on the paper.
(04:47):
We've seen improved pedagogy, so conversations have been very much around universal design for learning.
So it's a way of thinking about teaching and learning that helps give all students an equal opportunity to succeed, which is far more than just using tech in a lesson.
So it's thinking about how is tech used and what is the pedagogical approach of a particular lesson and learning development.
(05:07):
We've seen improved assessments so children can explain their answers easily through voice recordings, so we can understand their thought process and pick up misconceptions.
As a teacher, you know where each child is up to during the lesson, again being able to dive straight into the misconceptions rather than waiting for the end of the lesson.
We use quizzing tools so that teachers get immediate feedback and can adapt the lesson in response to this quickly.
(05:29):
And then children can access feedback more easily so they don't need to read comments in books, they can listen to verbal comments and then play them back to understand the points being made.
We've seen a flexible approach to teaching, so it's no longer that traditional model of a teacher standing at the front of the classroom and delivering.
They can move around the classroom, share work from their iPads or from the children's iPads for everybody to see and discuss.
(05:51):
We can create video, the model things step by step so that children can play them back if they're struggling with on division, we create a video, they can replay it and replay it and replay it rather than somebody having to explain it kind of five or six times.
There's more time spent on teaching, so not having to spend time giving out sheets, sticking in sheets, losing sheets, hunting for lost sheets.
(06:11):
And the children can access their learning straight away.
It's reduction in teacher workload.
So they're able to spend more time on planning and pedagogy because they're no longer standing at the photocopier and making individualized resources and there's less time on marketing and feedback for staff as well, especially around assessments.
I think the final thing really is around unleashing creativity.
(06:31):
So if you think about some of those additional teaching and learning approaches, some result in the learning being closed to children and you're marking or judging their writing skills rather than their understanding of other parts, such as scientific knowledge.
So for instance, we've seen some children be able to record animations or movies around the solar system rather than writing a leaflet.
(06:54):
So we've really understood what the scientific learning is on that point.
Our vision is to ignite the spark and reveal the champion.
And our use of ed tech is doing just that.
So we're discovering talents in some of our children that we didn't know that they had.
They're some are particularly talented at coding or filmmaking and the same staff actually as well.
They're shining when we hadn't realized they had those skills.
And I know in discussion with other leaders outside of our trust before this summer, they were worried about the impact on writing.
(07:20):
However, we were moderated across all of our schools this year and our writing outcomes are significantly above national averages in key stage one and two.
And in one of our schools, the use of tech to support writing was commented on really positively by the external moderators.
Yeah, that sounds amazing and I guess there's a bit of pressure there for yourself to make sure you're getting it right away, not allowing any room for error in those sorts of situations.
(07:45):
So how did you sort of ensure that the technology that you were putting into your school was the right one? We did lots of research to start with, so we spoke to other schools who took different approaches.
We read research papers around impact and then we trialed it.
So rather than it's such an expensive resource at Tech, we needed to make sure it was right and was going to have the impact.
(08:09):
So we started off with a small number of iPads in each school to try to see what was possible.
And then when we realized that was the right approach for us, then that's when we upscaled and put in the rest of the support.
Brilliant.
And Al, I'm going to turn to you really quickly, but with your sort of governance perspective as well as your 30 years in Ed tech outlook, what impact have you seen in using Edtech with the schools that you've been involved in? I suppose the really quick and easy answer is what she said, because Julie's covered so many different strands there.
(08:45):
I think the first thing is that concept of from adversity comes strength.
And I think when we think about within our trust, one of the first things was naturally there's been an acceleration or a conversation around the role of digital in our schools and where it can have a possible impact.
And I think up until a couple of years ago, that was quite a siloed approach.
(09:05):
And what we first of all found was we had much more focus and collaboration across our schools and between departments about things that work, things that didn't work.
So we first of all really accelerated the role of a digital strategy.
Some call it a digital vision and some it's just into open into stuff that's already ongoing.
But what it did was allow us to have a broader conversation with a lot more stakeholders.
(09:27):
And from that we kind of also have the ability from a governance level to ask those kind of key questions, what we're trying to achieve, why are we doing it, and also how are we going to measure its impact? And I think that measure of impact has shifted from purely the student curriculum outcomes to thinking more about wellbeing timesaving communication, home school communication within our schools.
(09:49):
Technology absolutely has really kind of come to the fore.
And I think some of the points Julian made really resonated.
One of the biggest ones was actually the flagbearers who are the go to people across our schools that have competence and confidence in certain technology.
And actually that unlocked the will of other teachers to give stuff a try because they felt there were other resources they could go to other than perhaps YouTube and obviously other resources included, but it gave people a chance to actually embed more.
(10:20):
Now, ironically, for someone who is very passionate about Ed tech, one of our strategies was less is more.
Don't try and do too many things too quickly.
And much like Julie did with dip the toe in the water, see if it actually works before you scale.
We tried the same thing.
So as an office 365 trust, the main trust uncharol for us, we wanted to make sure we really embedded an understanding on the effective use of teams and OneNote and how that could be interwoven.
(10:44):
And then we started looking at actually capturing across our trust those exemplars both from a curriculum point of view for students and signposting them in a central repository, but also starting to build those resources for staff using the technology in place.
Then as we've had more children back in in certain areas.
If we think right down to our EYFS and key stage one children.
(11:05):
We have a learning journey bus where we use iPads, but we use augmented reality resources to actually stimulate creative ideas and feed that into creative writing.
We use VR headsets.
We use different tools that allow the capturing of student progress and activities both in the classroom as we would do as part of UFS, but also during lockdown for parents to capture and share back to the school.
(11:28):
Observations of children's activities may not have been directly aligned to the curriculum, but it allowed that kind of conduit of communication and feedback for our old children across our all through or secondary schools.
Within our map, we saw the role of AI by based personalized learning apps that allowed children to develop whether it was their math skills or their science skills and really embed and stretch those more able learners but take them back a few steps to kind of build some confidence for those otherwise, not to replace teaching and learning, but to complement as another strand.
(12:00):
The communication within the trust, I think is huge and I think many trust will share that.
Actually, one of the biggest benefits of technology has been to really improve that conduit between school and parents.
And that started with parental training and familiarity with the tools that we use and how they impact.
But, you know, the anecdotal will all say about how sometimes the online parents evenings have been far better to manage in terms of time engagement with hard to reach families, but also good for staff well being in terms of managing that overhead.
(12:29):
But that same approach has allowed us to have much greater exposure of what we're doing, the tools we're using and why we're doing them.
And I suppose in the context of here today as governors and trustees thinking about that oversight.
Actually bringing the narrative around digital and why we're doing things and what we're doing to the table.
Whereas perhaps previously it's been a bit of an item seven on the agenda that we might get to or it's been simply wrapped up in a signing off on a policy about technology or digital privacy and so on.
(12:58):
So I think there's been huge areas, but it's absolutely not been a competition to who's doing the most is by association doing the best.
Yeah, I think that's really interesting, that point you've just made about governing oversight, because I do sense that there is a change in approach that boards are taking now.
(13:23):
I think they are taking a more strategic view.
It is less oversight and I think there are more strategic conversations about harnessing and unleashing the powers of tech to make teaching better, learning more engaging and improving outcomes.
Or as you say but I still think it's probably because governance is a diverse activity.
(13:48):
We come from all sectors of society and that's what we want to encourage and not all of us.
I can include myself in this.
I have an interesting tech, but I'm not techminded.
I don't have a tech teaching background either, so I'm not sure I'm one of those governors or trustees who feels really confident about testing the robustness of tech proposals and tech partners.
(14:11):
So you got any tips for me? Someone like me where he wants to engage but not quite sure at what level? At a very high level.
I don't think you need to have any technology skills to ask the questions of what are we doing, why are we doing it, and how we're going to measure impact.
In the same way as you can come onto a governing body or a trust board with an experience in finance and still have an active role to play in school improvement.
(14:33):
How can we help you? What are you doing? What does that mean? Why are we doing it that way? And I think everybody has a voice to play.
Now we see some of the biggest challenges over the last couple of years have been about how children access technology.
We've talked about the concerns over digital policy, parental engagement, and how parents can support keeping children safe online, the digital citizen angle.
(14:54):
So I think there are a whole raft of questions as a governing body and a particular trust board because as soon as we start talking digital strategy and that strategic word pops in, well, that's very much the realm of our members and our trustees.
We're talking strategically about digital as a lever, but actually our whole school priorities.
And our trust priorities now might be also focused on staff retention.
(15:16):
Well, digital isn't just about purely, well, of course, critically important, having an outcome and lever on children's outcomes, but it's also about allowing staff to work more effectively, freeing up time, making better visibility of data.
So the questions around the technology we use, how do we know it's used effectively? How do we know that's the right choices? How can we assist you? Have we seen any benefits from deployment of this? What's the feedback from staff? Are we happy that our parents understand the technology we use? And then from our personnel safeguarding stream, we might be saying how do we know we're taking appropriate steps under kixie and beyond about keeping our children safe, the technology they're using? How are we finding if we are time to weave in that digital citizenship as part because that's far more important than the tools to prevent it's faculty to educate.
(16:05):
So I think there's a whole raft of questions without having a tech background that governing bodies can be raising and including as part of the conversation, hopefully just to be the support and enabler to the leadership team to do what they've already planned.
Yeah, and we talked about you're talking about there, sorry, the importance of having a more holistic view, not just focusing entirely unleashing tech in the classroom.
(16:33):
And I was taken by something that you wrote in Schools Week this week about from a more broader perspective and certainly in these difficult financial climate, about ensuring that more highly effective ways and of improving our technology use or improving our technology use and making it as effective as it can be.
(16:57):
And in that piece you talked about audits, conducting a thorough tech audit.
So I wonder if you could say a little bit more about that.
And I'd like to get Julie's take on that as well, about how in her trust, the schools ensures that you're future proofing what you're doing and you're maximizing the impact of the resource available.
(17:21):
Absolutely.
I mean, the brief responses, the more efficiently we operate our infrastructure, the more money there is in the pot for the important bit of teaching and learning.
That's the kind of the fundamental.
So I always tend to start by saying when you're looking at a digital strategy, you need to look backwards before you look forward.
And in essence, what that means is what technology have we already got? How well is it being used? Have we got loads of devices sitting dust in a cupboard or could they be relocated somewhere else? Have we got software subscriptions that we're renewing every year? But actually two years ago we signed up to a different type of solution in the curriculum that could save us money if we're looking to implement tablets in our classrooms.
(17:57):
Do we know what our current infrastructure is, our switches and WiFi access points? Have we got the capacity? Because what we don't want to do is invest on one path and find the infrastructure fails or more importantly.
Have to take a conversation to leadership about I'd like some of more of these in the classroom where potentially you could have the evidence of saying.
Well.
We've been using these for the last year and we know it works well because so I think that reassurance many teachers will say that they know by instinct.
(18:23):
By is and eyes those most important things.
What's working well.
But the audit of all those devices gives us a sight of knowing which areas we could build on, but also understanding what the upcoming cost implications might be.
Yes.
Julie, what's your take on assets and devices throughout your trust and how you ensure that those assets and devices are future proof, essentially, and doing what you need them to do for your pupils? So, yeah, we took a similar approach to Al and I think the thing for us now is making sure that we're mapping going forward.
(18:59):
So we did the audit, we looked at infrastructure, et cetera, but now, because we're going one to one, what we've got to be really clear on is there's no point going one to one, but then in three years time we can't afford the next class to be one to one or actually these devices are too old.
So we've got a financial plan linked to that to make sure that the affordability continues.
(19:19):
I think the other aspect as well, and it's really interesting what you're saying before about the devices that we no longer use.
So some of them you can resell.
So we've gone through our old devices.
So we have a stock of iPads, and probably when they were first brought out that we've looked at, we've resold and reinvested that into our tech as well.
(19:40):
So rather than sitting in a cupboard for 15 years or so, which is so easily done, it's actually is there any residual value left in those? What can we sell them for? How can we make sure that's put back into our current position? Yeah, that sounds great.
And I think there's something really interesting within all of this.
I think as we grow in a world where you've got social media, and it's inevitable really, that you've got your pupils and young people engaging in this sort of technology, regardless of whether it's in your school or not, how you want to develop those people to be a good digital citizen, like day to day in person.
(20:18):
But there's a really big thing there, and I was just wondering if you could reflect slightly on it and talk a little bit more about it, about what it means to be a digital citizen and how schools are benefiting the future generation, so to speak.
Absolutely, yeah.
I mean, I think it all starts in the primaries, and primary schools are very good at building that awareness and building the digital leaders, often in schools through programs or just as part of that curriculum play, but understanding how children can model to other children best practice and behavior, how they communicate, keeping themselves safe, the implications of sharing something online and what that means.
(20:55):
I think as we get older and we think I often talk about from a secondary perspective, the last few years we've had these perfect examples, whether it's that be brexit word or whether it's elections in north America, where we need to actually educate young people about actually the skills to question the validity of information, the source of information, but also to model how they communicate.
(21:17):
A term that's often referenced talking about this topic is digital inhibition, which roughly translates to when we communicate online, many people tend to act in a way very different to the way they might do face to face.
So teaching and modeling and understanding around how we communicate online, and the bigger implications of data privacy, that ripple effect the concerns there's been about digital online bullying.
(21:42):
There are so many strands, and of course, things like kixie give us the guidelines in terms of the tools and measures to put in place to keep our children safe online.
But I would always argue the most important tool is education, rather than the tool that filters.
So most schools are very aware of this.
As always, the usual pressure and challenge is the time to squeeze all these different strands into an ever growing curriculum breadth.
(22:04):
But I think it all starts at primaries and many are absolutely already flying the flag in terms of we add more technology, therefore we've got to add greater emphasis on keeping children safe with it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think comes off of that is how you've spoken about engagement with stakeholders as well.
I know there's lots of elements that play a part, but Julie, could you sort of share about how your experiences of getting stakeholder by more so parents and buying in on Ed Tech, considering things like safeguarding and mental health concerns with technology as well as sort of the educational element of that? Yes.
(22:42):
So we've involved our parents right from the start of the journey.
So right from that first trial, we explained to parents what we were doing.
We held Robins for them to come and have a look.
We invited them into the classroom so they could see the benefits of the Ed tech being used on their children's learning.
We did workshops for them as well.
So I think one of the barriers where some of our parents was they didn't know how to use an iPad.
(23:05):
So you straightaway have that fear you were saying out before about that inhibition as well.
If you don't understand it, you don't want to use it and then you're worried about it.
So we did workshops right from the basics up to the wall, kind of complex things about your childhood and garage band at the moment.
Let's do a workshop for you so that you can have a go and have those conversations with them.
We've signed posts to things like our Apple Store and some of the classes that they put on for children and parents as well, which we've had some great involvement in with some of our parents.
(23:33):
We're very lucky because we're right near Blue Water actually, so it's quite easy to access for some of our parents.
But also we've involved them in the digital strategy and we've linked that to some of the safeguarding works.
We've had safeguarding dropin specifically linked to a tech.
So if they're particularly worried about what their child's seeing online, we've supported them with how to access support for that barriers to put in place, kind of all those boundaries well, because that's something that parents struggle with and we've kept them updated with impact as well.
(24:05):
So, you know, we've had this trial, this has been the impact, we're extending this, this has been the impact.
And I think just the passion from the children when you talk to them about Ed tech as well, and they take that home and they see some of the amazing things that they do has really supported our parents in the accessibility side.
That is so inspiring, really, to see how you're thinking strategically and you're taking an approach that helps parents have that clear understanding of not only what the tech is and how it's used, but also the expectations that you have of pupils and how you're helping and supporting them to be the best that they can be.
(24:48):
And that engagement can only benefit Khan Tick not just the pupils, but the wider community as well.
But I wanted to go back, Julie, and just ask you about the staff in your trust at all levels, because you spoke earlier about just the impact that tech has had on them, not just in terms of reducing their workload, which is something all of us governing are very much preoccupied by.
(25:19):
It's a big issue for us, ensuring that staff workload is sustainable, but also building the confidence and skills of staff as well.
And I think it's well known, it's an established narrative that within a large organization like a trust or a school, there will be inevitably differences in staff confidence and capability when it comes to using tech.
(25:45):
And that must be a challenge in terms of structuring and delivering CPD and ensuring that has the impact.
So how do you go about how have you gone about an organization with a diverse family of schools tackling that? That's a really good question.
So, right at the beginning, I was mentioning before that you take one or two things and you work on those.
(26:08):
And that's what we started with.
We started with a really clear program of CPD, and we've had that in place for the last three years, where everybody was accessing the same CPD, started working on particular apps, embedded them for one year, working on different apps, embedded them for the next year.
And then what we've moved to now, because everybody has had the same basic training, is a coaching model.
(26:31):
So we have an assistant head for digital who works across the trust, and he goes and co plans with staff and then team teaches with staff, models, lessons with staff.
So we've put that investment in there because we know that for the Edtech work properly, we've got to invest in other aspects, not just the actual devices.
So that then is very much tailored to the needs of individual staff.
(26:55):
I'll mentioned around Digital Champions, in each school we've got members of staff and pupils who are Digital Champions.
To be honest, the pupils can use the iPad far better than I can.
There models of good practice so other members of staff can go in and watch them teach.
And it always comes back to those conversations around, how are you using Ed tech to make the learning better? And I think I'll mention before, it's not using it all the time.
(27:18):
You know, you might only use it week, but it's about those key children or those key aspects being enhanced.
But it has really been around that tailored CPD approach.
And that's what we've done this year, captured CPD, put in.
Support worked with an Apple professional learning specialist to key members of staff.
And I think that dissemination then of having those really strong practitioners in school to support, that has worked well.
(27:44):
Yeah.
Now, from a governing perspective, I'm sure this is something that you stayed across in your governing roles.
When you've been speaking to staff about CPD generally and their own workload and well being and life in school, how important do you think it is for us governing to stay across that aspect of the strategy? I think it's key, I have to say.
(28:09):
The first thing is I really want to go to Julie schools because they sound amazing and I love the approach that she's taken.
But essentially I think the key is we need to recognize that the role of governance, trust, leadership, is not just about turning up for meetings, but actually in the same way as we would come in and we would observe in the primary school and understand how Phonics is being delivered or how we've been delivering broader student enrichment.
(28:32):
The same applies.
The role of Ed tech is just another tool in the toolkit, but you need to be embedded as part of that.
And I think the most important role we have as overarching leadership in the trust is to be facilitators and enablers.
Actually, if you understand, you get involved, you can support.
And we talk about the critical friend, but the last couple of years, rightly, so the friends needed to be the dominant factor, but actually by understanding, you can provide better support.
(28:57):
So I think when we think about CPD, these are transferable not just from education, but from any experience that you've got from the business world or any sector.
Frankly, that if we have an expectation that our strategy is simply built around when you've got time in the evenings, go watch some stuff, go listen to stuff, you know it's not going to work.
And the C is always the bit that gets dropped, the continuous part of the professional development.
(29:19):
When it comes to webtech, so often we'll get brand new interactive whiteboards and there'll be a training session on Inset day at the start of the academic year, and after that you're on your own.
Well, actually, that just gets you interested, but then puts you in that fear zone of I want to try stuff, but if it doesn't work, where do I go? So that concept like Julie's explained about really signposting and having that continuous development, we just found things like if we've got some new whiteboards in one of our schools and we had some training for it, why on earth weren't we recording it? So staff and all the other schools could access that training at any point? Or why don't we just pick up the phone and invite them? Frankly, that joined up.
(29:57):
Thinking in a different way has been really important and the more we can see that and the more we can get positive feedback about however small the steps are when moving in the right direction, then it builds confidence to invest further.
As much as there is a risk of surveying our staff to death.
And they've got plenty of other things to worry about.
(30:17):
That regular litmus test of key questions how confidence levels are with technology, how is it improving? And to students, I might add, each year you've got a reference point then of whether we're moving in the right direction.
And again, I think governors have an obligation to make it clear this isn't a case of we'll set a date and by this time we must be a digitally amazing school because frankly, they don't know what that word means in that context.
(30:42):
But it's about each year within a revise and review how well things are going, how we can facilitate and help and have a sense of what we need to plan.
And it might be we're aligning with a broader think of the white paper recently, a broader trust plan about expansion and growth.
We need to get to a critical mass of size, of multi academy trust.
(31:03):
Well, in that context we might be thinking about actually, let's add to that strategy about tools that are agnostic and are scalable, that would allow easy inclusion of another school into our ecosystem.
And so if you're not aware of that, you can't do the broader strategic planning conversations that you need to have at school or trust level.
(31:23):
Yeah, I can absolutely see that.
And I think that is such an important part of creating that sort of one organization mentality.
And the feeling of a group of schools are part of something that's bigger than their individual, greater than the sum of their parts, so to speak.
(31:49):
And something occurred to me when you were speaking about organizational join up and both talking about empowering staff and building confidence.
And that's the role of tech partners in strategy because that's a big decision, isn't it? That's a big, potentially a big procurement decision that will that will exercise governors or something I have to think about carefully any thoughts or advice on how a board can look at a proposal to work with a tech partner and how to go about that process at leadership level? Don't know if that question was phrased particularly well, but I think you get the essence of what I'm asking.
(32:37):
I get the gist.
This should take me no longer than 3 hours to respond.
Grab your popcorn.
Yes, clearly it's a really important strategic decision, a tech partner.
And the first thing which is really important is you either investing in technology where it's a transaction, you connect with a vendor, you select a product, you buy it, and thank you very much.
In which case there's the first warning flag that's not the way we work in education.
(33:00):
It should be we start a relationship because actually a good tech partner is adapting constantly based on the feedback and you can't have the feedback from the school with the relationship and if the partner is the one creating the products, it should be shaping the improvements and future features of their products.
That's a win win for both parties.
Coproduction is key in education.
What I always say is when we're looking at big solutions and additions into schools we need to follow.
(33:25):
I often share a rubric and I won't go into all the steps but basically split into two halves.
There is the consideration from a technology perspective and there's a consideration from a curriculum and pedagogy perspective and of course it's weighted differently depending on the kind of solution.
So from a tech perspective we're going to be thinking about that technology.
How does it align with our current infrastructure, our devices that we use? But also is it sufficiently agnostic that it would allow us to scale? As we look at potentially adding new solutions we might then be asking about making sure that it what the implications on our current infrastructure? Are we making a commitment for some great devices or software or a change of mis? But actually in doing so we've got a new hidden cost of our infrastructure.
(34:07):
We'll also be thinking about privacy policy, governance would be thinking about whether is this new tech partner based in Mongolia and is there any considerations about data storage and implications of that? We might also be thinking about that integration.
So in America we often use the term rostering.
Here in the UK we'll be thinking about how we do our student enrolment.
Are we joining up to new systems that are going to create another manual level of maintaining student information up to date? Given we have often lots of in years as often turns out in week movement with student cohorts.
(34:39):
And then in parallel we've got that pedagogy, that curriculum site which is do the solutions being offered actually align with our curriculum? Have we actually reviewed the content to be appropriate? A big one which sadly often occurs is have we not already got something that does this? And if we don't check we want to make sure that at the very least we unsubscribe from the other one.
(35:00):
That's where often hidden costs are.
And then the big one, which is very much the pedagogy at heart, is the solutions being offered? If we're thinking about more specifics, are we actually clear about its instructional benefit, its purpose? Have we actually have the educators around the table? Now I ask those questions before we go and spend time on the evaluation process and then we might be looking at the big hot topic in education, always has been in teaching and learning.
(35:26):
But in terms of ed, tech is evidence.
And it's not just that we've got a great shiny brochure that says these solutions will make your school amazing because that's not really going to be sufficient to convince someone like Julie that they want that solution.
It needs to go far beyond that, which is where's the evidence both from an evaluation perspective, from whether it's pedagogy and researchbased papers about the impact it has on outcomes, whether it's white papers from other schools.
(35:52):
And of course, now we've got this beautiful platform that are growth all the time, as we're doing today.
We've got podcasts, we've got webinars, we've got all sorts of events where you can reach out to your PLN and beyond and get firsthand experiences from others.
And because time is so valuable, those kind of checks go before you spend too much time actually investing in trialing it and taking up teacher time.
(36:14):
And that list is by no means exhaustive.
And I'm sure Julie's got others, but those are the kind of the start of the ten that I would be considering.
Yeah, it feels to me like it's the bedrock of any great collaboration and partnership, and first and foremost, it has to be a great structural and cultural fit and then everything then flows from that.
(36:35):
Would you agree with that, Judy? I mean, I know you've worked closely with Tech Partners.
What have you learned from that experience? I'm so pleased I'll start with the relationship aspect because I think that's one of the key points.
There are so many companies out there who will sell you iPads and then do exactly what you said.
I'll just go, Right, thanks very much.
You've got your money and off you go.
(36:56):
So we actually started with taking advice from our Apple regional manager because we knew we wanted to go down the Apple route.
So he put us in touch with some of the companies who were authorized Apple education specialists.
Then we could start to have conversations to check exactly that, about whether it fitted with our culture, our pedagogical approach.
And then we also explored with them as to what else they could offer us.
(37:20):
So could they fund Apple professional learning specialists to help us with our journey, for instance? And then in the procurement aspect, we also added in a procurement panel, so it wasn't just on the technical specifications and the cost of it, but it was around that, come and present to us, let us have a conversation, let us pick what you're actually telling us that we could understand whether they really were a good fit for us.
(37:42):
And I think it's also speaking to other people, some bit of due diligence work.
There's some great companies out there, but actually, when you speak to other schools where they've rolled them out, it's not been as the company has said, or they've mainly based in one part of the UK and not in our parts UK.
Well, that's no good for us.
We need people on the ground who can come in and support us with it.
Not somebody who's based in Northern Ireland, for instance.
(38:06):
Yeah.
And I think from what you've both said, it really sounds like there's a great need for transparency during this process, not only between senior leaders and your tech partner, but also through your different stakeholders, your people, your parents and your staff.
And I think with my governance hat on, me sitting on my board, I think one of the things I would be thinking about is what implications does this have once it's in place and it's working? Well, that's amazing.
(38:37):
But just before that, when you're getting into those sort of teeding areas and trying to get it all rolled out and get comfortable with everyone, I would probably be thinking about what implications does this have on staff well being and workload? What sort of indicators have you been using to manage that? And how have you kind of overcome any challenges where you've had people come back, your teachers and your staff come back and say, actually this isn't helping, or have you had that all? Has it been quite seamless? It's been quite seamless, I think because we've pasted it really slowly.
(39:15):
We haven't gone, here's the iPads, off you go, or we haven't gone, here's the iPads.
We expect you to be using them in all your lessons straightaway.
We have done over the last three years, focus on one area, then move to the next area.
When that's right, then move to the next area.
So no members of staff are being overwhelmed.
We have done Staff Questionnaires to capture impact and also within that it's around workloads and time spent on marketing, for instance, and time spent on planning.
(39:43):
We've also had those on the ground conversations because we're small trust of four schools and as a member of staff, particularly leaders who's in every school frequently, then he can capture any of that or have conversations.
And the rare occasion to member of Status Tenant is because they've really struggled with the implementation of it, which is when our assistant head for Digital has then gone in and has coplanned and co taught and modeled lessons to really support them so that they're not left on their own.
(40:13):
So I think we've been the way we structured it, we've tried to think about all of the pitfalls before we got to them and then as many have appeared because of our structure, we've been able to support staff with that straight away.
And have you found the sort of same reaction from your schools? Yes, I think so.
I think the key one, I always think when we're talking about how we make sure we get everybody on board and we focus about wellbeing and just frankly, confidence.
(40:41):
One of the things is we shouldn't be scared of technology.
I think whenever I've started conversations around Ed Tech, for a lot of people, there's that imposter syndrome, it's either the realm of the techie or it's the realm of the teacher.
And in reality these conversations are joined up, there's different strands and different viewpoints.
So actually, whereas perhaps you might find sometimes there's a natural persuasion for the It manager, the network manager, to start the conversation in a very technical way.
(41:08):
Lots of this is very simple and actually, if you've dumb it down to the simplest components, then everybody can be on board with that.
I've always found that actually, the more people who are involved in the conversation and the more people that you can actually share the logic of what we're trying to achieve and why we're doing it, then like any project, you bring people along on the journey rather than surprise them or drag them along with it.
(41:30):
And I think that's what leaders always have the biggest challenges of signposting and time they can spend to really make sure that everyone feels like they've been listened to and they understand where we're trying to go collectively as a school or a trust.
And that includes, of course, the parental engagement, that understanding.
The more we get stakeholders, it's always going to be a more productive process.
(41:52):
And that starts, I think, with governance being very clear to support the leadership with that.
Yeah, I think that's a really important message.
This is a conversation that we could just continue.
I think.
For hours and hours.
But I think as we draw to a close with a time that's available.
(42:17):
I wanted to ask you both.
Really.
If you had any sort of final thoughts on the board from a governing board perspective on how best to engage in this agenda.
But also where you think the biggest opportunities will be for our schools in the next two.
(42:39):
Three.
Five years.
Looking ahead to get the best out of tech and provide transformative solutions.
Whether that's to meet challenges or to achieve strategic objectives.
Because the one thing we do know for sure is that technology is constantly evolving, it's constantly changing, and with that brings opportunity.
(43:05):
So I wonder if you thought about that, you reflected on that.
So I'll start with you, Alex.
I can see you're not in a way there, so I guess you might have thought about what the next two or three years looks like and what the role we can play as boards.
I think across education, we can say the next few years is full of opportunities and full of challenges, and finding the yin and the yang on those two is really difficult.
(43:29):
The immediate opportunity, or potentially you could call it risk, is that we lose the muscle memory, we lose that focus around the effective use of digital and slide back to a prepandemic position where it's an emergency tool rather than naturally interwoven into the fabric of our future learning.
I think if we move forward, we can either look at technology as a way to help mitigate through economies of scales and efficiency, some of the operational costs of our schools and multicademy trust.
(43:57):
And given the financial pressures that might help keep a little bit more.
I think strategically one of the biggest challenges we have in our schools, and that is actually staff recruitment and retention.
And so we are fools if we don't consider how technology can help lighten the load for our teaching workforce.
And there's lots of examples already being shared today, but all of those strands are important when we start building those marginal gains for us as a trust.
(44:23):
And then the final bit is absolutely do what we're doing today and others are doing, which is to continue digital journey.
Don't always just look inwards, look outwards, listen to others, find out other best practice, other schools are doing amazing things and do what schools do best, which is share.
Indeed.
Indeed.
Julie, I think for us, and I was just mentioning about teacher recruitment and retention, the biggest opportunities is about getting into it, to initial teacher training and sharing what you're doing.
(44:56):
So that will help with recruitment.
And we found that we've worked with University of Greenwich, so we've had more staff apply for any of our roles this year.
So being able to shape our future generations of teachers is really key.
And I think someone shared with me as well the most dangerous proof in education, which is we've always done it that way.
So it's stopping and thinking about why we're doing it that way, how are we going to change it, what's the best way of impacting? And that's something that govern us to really play a key role in as we're moving forward with this.
(45:30):
Yes, what a lovely way to end.
And I think what I've got from this conversation, more than anything else, it's just a real feel for the ambition that you both have, for the schools that you work with and you're involved in, and for the children and young people and the communities, the communities that you serve.
(45:55):
But more than that, how you're thinking about ed tech in those terms? Your first thought is actually, how can we maximize the use of tech to benefit our pupils, our young people, our communities, as a first principle? And I think it goes back to something you were saying earlier about actually for those of us who govern, who perhaps feel a little bit daunted by this topic because of the technical aspect of it and the constant change, particularly those of us who are a little older.
(46:29):
I'll put that out there.
It's really great that you brought us back to those first principles and have challenged us really to think strategically about making the most of those opportunities.
So I thank you both for your time and for your great insight.
(46:49):
It's been wonderful talking to you.
It's been great having you with me as well, Nina, and enjoy.
We don't make this the last podcast we do together.
Let's hope we do another one together soon.
But thanks everyone.
And thank you to everyone listening who's joined us.
(47:10):
I hope that if nothing else, we've inspired you at a future Governing Board meeting to open up a conversation about how your schools and trusts are using technology and making the most of it for what we want for our children and young people.
So thanks for joining us on Governing Chapters, and we look forward to joining you again soon.
Bye.
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