August 30, 2023 • 37 mins
Steve Johnson is the COO of Indiana Donor Network. Steve has a vast background in healthcare aviation and leads Tx Jet; Indiana Donor Network’s aviation division. We discussed new innovations in the organ procurement industry such as TransMedics and other profusion device companies, as well as logistical challenges facing the industry when moving human organs nationwide. Enjoy the show!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
Thank you for visiting the Medi show brought to you by the Medical Logistics and Transportation Organization,
Medi Apps.
I'm your host,
Ryland Stone.
Today we are speaking with Steve Johnson,
the Chief operating Officer of Indiana Donor Network.
Steve has a vast background in health care Aviation and leads TX Jet,
Indiana Donor Networks Aviation Division.
(00:30):
I hope you enjoy the show.
Hey,
Steve,
thank you so much for coming on the show today.
I really appreciate your time.
Ryland.
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate it as well to just jump right into our conversation.
I already kind of give a little intro on what you do,
but you're with Indiana Donor Network.
Uh If you wanna give me a little bit of background on kind of yourself before your professional career family,
(00:52):
where you were born,
where you're from,
we'll go back and just kind of go through your timeline.
Yeah,
sure.
Um So actually I was born in Las Cruces,
New Mexico,
which is southern New Mexico.
We're probably about 20 minutes from the Mexico border.
Um And uh born and raised there and so went to New Mexico State University.
(01:14):
Uh got interested in um I was actually,
um,
an athlete there at the college and then,
um,
they,
they,
uh,
select courses for you.
We'll see.
And one of them happened to be an EMT course and,
um,
I was able to take it at night and it wasn't,
uh,
interfering with practices and stuff like that.
(01:35):
And,
man,
I tell you,
I just completely geeked out.
I was like,
you gotta be kidding me.
There's like lights and sirens and I got a beer and I get to talk on the radio and um,
man,
I just,
I turned into a little Ricky rescue and uh so I just love the heck out of it.
And I grew up in an aviation family.
So my dad was a pilot and my grandfather was a pilot and um,
(01:57):
so I had learned how to fly at a really young age and one thing led to another.
And next thing,
you know,
I was um um starting an air ambulance company and working to,
you know,
grow and build,
um you know,
critical care transport in Southern New Mexico and West Texas.
So I did that for,
um,
did that for quite a long time and um then ended up running a large air ambulance company out of Dallas,
(02:25):
um called Omni Flight.
We had about 100 and 20 aircraft nationwide that all the critical care transport.
So you're helicopters and airplanes that move people from point A to point B and um I'm a pilot as well as a clinician.
And um just,
um at that point,
I got introduced to,
you know,
traditional hospital leadership um positions because I was dealing with a lot of them,
(02:50):
you know,
providing their helicopter services and that's what brought me to Indiana.
So the,
you know,
and then from there,
I got introduced to Indiana Donor network.
And um that's kind of a funny story that I will probably get to in a minute.
But personally,
I'm married to a absolutely wonderful lady.
(03:10):
Um and I have two of my Children.
One is 21 one's 18 and then I inherited two step heathens.
Um One of them is 12 and one is seven.
I love them both.
Um They'll probably hear that and they'll agree.
Um But um yeah,
and I've got a mutt dog that um um still after four years decides when and when she is not going to be potty trained.
(03:38):
So,
um yeah,
life is insane.
But yeah,
back to the,
uh you know,
back to the,
the OPO world.
Um I actually got sent over to Indiana Donor Network as a consultant and um I didn't know what the hell an OPO was and uh it was,
I,
I thought I was in trouble for getting sent over there actually.
(04:00):
And um man,
I just kind of fell in love with it.
I mean,
donation and transplantation is just such a fascinating um part of medicine and it's so impactful and um it's truly been a privilege um to,
you know,
get to,
get to do that for the last 10 years.
Yeah,
for sure.
Can you give a brief overview of what an OPO is just for the listeners?
(04:22):
That might not be familiar?
Oh,
yeah.
Yeah.
Now that I know what it is after 10 years,
um so an OPO is actually an organ procurement organization.
There are 57 if I'm not mistaken,
op Os in the United States right now.
Um And they are their area,
they call it A DS A or designated service area is actually given to them by C MS in those areas are fairly random.
(04:49):
So for example,
there are four organ procurement organizations in Ohio,
but there's only one in Indiana.
So who knows,
who knows who I think somebody,
uh somebody in DC back in the seventies just had a dartboard and started throwing dart board.
So,
um but regardless that's um organ procurement organizations facilitate organ donation um and transplantation.
(05:14):
So they are the ones that facilitate everything from identifying potential donors.
Um managing those donors,
the recovery of the organs,
the placement of the organs.
Um And so that is,
you know,
they're really the ones that make,
you know,
transplantation ha happen other than of course,
the transplant centers who do the um actual transplant of the organ.
(05:36):
So,
yeah,
it's pretty interesting stuff.
OK.
And then what is a day in the life of,
for,
for you look like you're the chief operating officer.
Correct?
Yeah.
Um,
so it's all smoke and mirrors.
Um,
I fly a desk most of the time.
Um,
I,
um,
I basically blame everybody in the organization for,
(05:57):
um,
both everything that goes right and wrong and pretend like I'm working hard.
Um,
so I'm joking.
Um,
so,
you know,
donation and transplantation is such an,
you know,
everybody thinks their jobs are complicated,
everybody in health care thinks that whatever they're doing is complicated.
And so this is I'm sure familiar.
(06:18):
Um But I was just blown away with the number of things that have to happen for transplantation to take place.
There's such so few people that can actually be organ donors at the end of the day.
Now,
everybody can sign up to be an organ donor.
But,
you know,
there are a lot of things that could possibly rule you out,
you know,
(06:38):
and then,
you know,
so there's so many conditions that have to be met and then trying to make sure that we um you know,
you're tuning up those organs,
you're trying to make sure that those organs are functioning at their best capacity for the person that's actually gonna receive them.
Um You have to make sure those organs actually get to the people that need them in a timely fashion.
(06:59):
You know,
if you break down on the side of the road,
somebody's life saving heart is going to go in a trash can and that's just not acceptable.
So,
um,
you know,
just all of the timing and logistics and the things that go on,
um,
is really how we spend our days and nights.
And as you can imagine,
there is no,
um,
(07:19):
there is no day off.
I mean,
transplantation and medicine in general are 24 7,
but this certainly is.
Yeah,
and kind of to segue,
uh,
Indiana general Network is very unique.
You guys are actually operating your own aircraft,
which I'm assuming is directly to support this urgency that you spoke of a moment ago um for organ transplantation to make sure you can get them where they need to go.
(07:41):
Is that right?
Yes,
it is.
And so,
you know,
um really what was happening was 10 years ago when I was brought in as a consultant.
And,
you know,
the first thing what they were bringing me in for was because of my aviation background and expertise in that because I had been doing critical care transport for so long.
And what I found was is that,
(08:03):
you know,
these,
these op Os um and these transplant centers,
they not only could they not find transportation,
um They needed it at,
you know,
they needed transportation 24 hours a day,
seven days a week and they needed it at 2 a.m. because if you think about it,
donation doesn't happen at 2 p.m. it happens at 2 a.m. and you need a private jet because you can't hop on a Southwest Airlines flight and get to where you need to consistently.
(08:29):
Um,
and somebody's life is in,
you know,
I mean,
somebody's life is in the hands of whoever's carrying that cooler.
Um,
and so what we did was is,
you know,
I came in and I talked to him and I looked at what they were doing and where they were going and what the need was and it was pretty clear that,
you know,
they needed,
they needed aviation support.
(08:49):
And what does it look like before?
Sorry to cut you off.
But what did it look like before kind of getting your guys's aircraft?
What did a process look like to allocate transportation or let's say?
So,
I'm in Colorado right now.
If I am,
you and we have a heart that needs to go from here to Indiana.
What were you guys doing in the past?
So what,
how it works with most Op Os across the United States is they have to call a broker.
(09:12):
These are the same people that fly bankers from point A to point B.
Um,
you know,
understand that these charter companies that are out there that fly these uh private aircraft,
um,
they're not staffed um to fly at 2 a.m. their staff to fly,
you know,
at eight in the morning,
take somebody to a meeting and bring them back home that day or,
(09:36):
you know,
whatever the,
whatever that might be.
So we,
you know,
so sometimes it's spur of the moment,
you know,
not only is it 2 a.m. but we need an airplane right now.
And so it was really challenging for these OP Os all over the United States to be able to find somebody that was willing to do that.
Um,
and even then it,
the,
(09:56):
the expense associated with private aviation can be extreme.
And so,
yeah,
it's,
it's,
it is,
it is a big challenge for OP Os to this day that don't have,
you know,
aviation resources that are consistent.
Um And you know,
a lot of times,
you know,
the other thing is,
is these people that are in donation and transplantation,
(10:17):
their expertise is in donation and transplantation,
not aviation.
And so they're depending on somebody else to make sure that not only are these aircraft available,
but they're gonna get the job done and they're gonna get it done safely.
Um You know,
there is a lot of bad practice out there when it comes to private aviation as you know,
you can imagine.
So,
(10:38):
you know,
it's,
it really truly is one of the biggest challenges for donation and transplantation today is,
is the logistics and moving people.
Yeah,
that,
that's fascinating.
And I know there's aviation is a really big industry and it's cool that you've been able to mash up both of your previous experiences uh for Indiana donor network.
So,
so now kind of going back again.
(10:58):
You're at Indiana Donor Network as that consultant.
Uh They've brought you in and said,
hey,
we need help with our aviation.
What are you recommending?
Where were you kind of guiding them?
And then eventually you obviously came on staff with them,
walk me through that.
Yeah.
So um you gotta understand it's an incredibly popular thing to do to go to a board of directors and be like,
(11:18):
hey,
by the way,
guys,
I wanna buy some private jets.
Um Yeah,
that always,
yeah,
that always works out great.
Um But that is actually what happened.
Um you know,
I came in and then,
and I was still in a consultant situation and,
you know,
I briefed the CEO as well as the board and said that,
you know,
this was something that was attainable,
um that nobody needed to be frightened of the idea of starting a nonprofit aviation company.
(11:45):
Um and that,
you know,
the,
the numbers were definitely there to support it.
The need was there to support it.
And um you know,
they could,
they could do it and do it well.
And so,
um it actually was not as hard of a sell as I thought because there's just such a need for it.
(12:06):
And so we started and,
and,
and,
and what was great was,
is we were able to start a nonprofit um aviation jet company um and start it just the way it should be.
You know,
we made sure to evaluate what type of aircraft we were gonna use.
Um,
what was going to fulfill the mission.
Um,
what was going to be the most economical,
(12:27):
what was gonna be the least amount of maintenance,
how we were going to develop our training programs with our pilots,
um,
and all of those things and,
you know,
it's,
it,
um,
it has not only been successful but it's,
it's just such a cool model and I love watching,
you know,
these airplanes fly every day and,
and see the impact that it has on the industry.
(12:47):
Um um you know,
back to what you were asking me about me though is um I mean,
Ryland,
it,
it,
I know that it,
it,
whenever you have some executive that says this stuff,
it sounds like an elevator speech,
but I gotta tell you that it is the most fulfilling thing I've ever done personally as well as professionally.
(13:10):
Um I get to interact with these people that not only the donor families but also the recipients and I get to see the impact that donation has on,
on both of those um sides.
And um I tell you,
I mean,
I'm a guy,
man,
I like cars,
I like jets.
I,
you know,
yell at the TV when football's on.
Um,
man,
(13:31):
I cry all the time.
I mean,
it is a tear jerker when you see the impact that donation has on people and just to work in that every single day,
you know,
I mean,
I was in critical care transport for so long and certainly impactful.
But there's just something that is amazing about watching somebody get a second chance at life and,
and watching,
(13:51):
you know,
somebody see their son or daughter or mother or father,
you know,
um,
walk out of the hospital when they never thought they would.
Um,
it's just,
it's just one of those things that it's really great to wake up and get to do.
Yeah,
it's,
it's really cool what you guys are doing and what you're able to accomplish um for,
for the general population and make sure organs are accessible as you were building TX Jet.
(14:16):
What were some issues that you guys were running into?
You spoke to kind of just procuring different aircraft.
What are you guys flying?
Yes,
so we chose um So we chose what's called the citation citation CJ three.
Um It's a,
a passenger um potentially uh well,
we'll just say eight passenger,
small private jet.
(14:37):
It,
it's uniquely um modeled for what we do.
So,
um a few scenarios,
one,
you know,
you got big jet,
small jets,
big jets,
it's not just the price to buy jets,
it's how much does it cost to operate them?
How much fuel do they soak.
(14:59):
Um And really those are the things that you need to look at.
Do they need long runways?
Can they land on short runways?
All of these things are very important to evaluate.
Well,
donation and transplantation can happen anywhere um in any kind of weather,
any time of the day or night.
Um And so you needed an aircraft that was an all weather aircraft,
it needed to be fast,
(15:20):
we needed to be able to go into short fields or short runways.
Um And we needed,
you know,
an avionics and capability of an aircraft that um was,
I mean,
pretty broad.
Um We also needed to be able to have long enough legs that we could fly 1000 miles nonstop.
Um because that's pretty much as far as you're gonna go with,
(15:41):
with organs is probably not much more than 1000 miles.
And so the CG three is frankly the only aircraft in private aviation that has all of those things and it just so happens that it's probably one of the most economical aircraft to fly very,
very,
very low cost in comparison to a lot of other private jets.
(16:02):
And so it really,
and it provided a comfort,
comfortable uh environment for our surgeons who are flying in the back with the organs and going out and back.
But for us,
as pilots,
the technology and the safety and the redundancies were what we were looking for.
And these aircraft are just incredible with just advanced avionics,
(16:22):
I mean,
artificial vision.
Um you know,
these things really reduce the workload and increase the safety margin in the cockpit,
like nothing I've ever seen.
Um,
you know,
these aircraft,
I mean,
I don't,
you know,
for your listeners,
I don't want them to sound,
to sound bad,
but we're two generations ahead of what your commercial airlines have,
you know,
(16:42):
two generations ahead of what the avionics are in a 7 37 for Southwest.
And that's not bad.
It's not that theirs aren't safe.
It's just,
ours are so much more advanced And,
um,
so those were all the things that we kind of were looking for and,
and have,
you know,
really capitalized on.
So it's pretty cool.
Yeah,
for sure.
(17:03):
Were there any challenges in?
So,
like,
as you guys got these planes and now you're kind of going forward with the next step is,
yeah,
of course.
I mean,
I mean,
we were fortunate that I was surrounded by a lot of people who not only,
um,
had a lot of knowledge associated with aviation donation but you,
you know,
(17:23):
we,
it,
so the first thing is you're buying a jet,
it's expensive,
you know,
and you have to prove yourself and,
and,
um,
you have to be financially viable,
you need to be operationally viable and when you get out of the gate,
um,
you don't have those economies of scale and you're still trying to understand and learn,
(17:45):
um,
you know,
where we're going,
you know,
how are we gonna evolve this?
But,
you know,
it really,
you know,
no pun intended it took off very,
very quickly and the direction for us fortunately was very clear.
Um,
I tell people,
the unique thing about running donation,
aviation operations is the,
(18:07):
I tell them we have a,
you call,
we hall um,
mentality.
Um,
that's our deal,
you call and we haul and,
you know,
people,
you know,
it,
it doesn't matter,
day or night or when it is,
you know,
that's,
that's what we have to do.
So we were able to um get our first aircraft and then shortly thereafter,
(18:28):
I don't think it was more than,
you know,
a year and a half or two years,
we were able to go ahead and purchase our second aircraft and um now we're actually operating four aircraft and um I believe we're now at 21 pilots and we have pilot staffing,
staffing those four aircraft,
24 7 and multiple um shifts of pilots so that um we always have people available um for going out.
(18:55):
So,
are you guys sorry?
Uh Are you guys operating similar to that air ambulance background that you had or these people on,
on shift at a base like a fire department or what do you guys?
So that's a good question.
So,
um we don't staff,
clinicians like a critical care transport environment would,
so they would have a pilot and then they would have a nurse or a medic or a combination of such in the back of the helicopter or airplane um our,
(19:20):
the people that,
that are in the back of our aircraft or if we have someone in the back of our aircraft,
sometimes we're just trans or we're just transporting the organ.
Um,
but most times we actually have surgeons as well as their assistants that are flying in the back of the aircraft.
So we don't really control that.
So they're just our passengers.
Um,
but our pilots have,
(19:41):
they work on call.
And so the way it works for the FAA and Avi aviators is the second that we get a phone call.
Um And we take that phone call,
our duty day starts and we only have 14 hours that we can fly until we turn into a pumpkin.
And then after that 14 hours,
(20:03):
you have to have 10 hours of uninterrupted rest before you can start flying again.
So,
um and here's the interesting thing,
say you only fly six hours and then you go into your rest period.
You still,
even though if you only flew for six hours,
you still then have to have 10 hours of uninterrupted rest before that resets and you have 14 hours again.
(20:26):
Does that make sense?
Yeah,
and that,
that's,
I can see how that could be incredibly challenging for incredibly challenging.
Yeah,
imagine,
imagine,
you know,
you guys,
we fly to,
you know,
let's say we fly to Georgia and works here in Indianapolis.
We fly to Georgia and the or time gets delayed.
And so now they're sitting there on the ground for three or four hours,
(20:47):
they,
you know,
flew out there and now our pilots are sitting there and all of a sudden you're saying,
are we gonna have enough duty time to take once that organ comes out?
Do we have enough duty time to actually get that organ to where it needs to go?
So,
yeah,
we have logistics and things that are challenges that,
um,
are unique to our industry and we really have to be aware and,
(21:08):
and,
and competent with those and there are times that we actually have to send another airplane,
um,
because our pilots are gonna run out of duty times.
So,
um,
but like that,
that,
that would be a bummer if they're all the way out there and you're like,
oh,
I gotta send another plane out of time.
You know,
it is.
But at the same time,
what's funny about transplantation is nobody bats an eye because we know what is happening on the other end.
(21:34):
Um,
you know,
if it doesn't get done,
I mean,
somebody's,
you know,
somebody's donation of a life saving organ isn't gonna get used and somebody on the other end isn't gonna get it.
And,
um,
I'm not just saying that,
like the pilots staff,
like,
I mean,
it,
it's incredible to watch that community work because they all understand what the,
(21:56):
what the,
what's,
what's happening.
Yeah.
No,
I'm sure.
And I'm sure that really helps with culture to have a unified mission that you guys can all focus on and all know that even if you're tired,
even if you have a frustrating day before work,
um that you guys are,
are coming together and helping people.
Um And it really is,
it,
(22:16):
it's fun to watch and then,
you know,
I mean,
I know you,
I mean,
in,
in medicine it seems like everybody,
everybody understands the impact that,
you know,
health care has on people in a positive way.
But doesn't mean you,
you,
you can't be cranky about it.
Um uh donation and transplant.
It's just funny to it.
It,
it really is um um it's a well orchestrated symphony of people that have um incredibly big brains and incredibly big egos and they just all come together to make it happen and it's,
(22:48):
it,
it really is a neat thing to see as a human.
Yeah,
I'm sure uh for TX Jet and for,
I think I forgot to mention this earlier.
But can you tell me what the,
the TX and TX Jet means?
Yeah.
So TX is uh really um you know,
in,
in donation and transplantation,
TX stands for transplant.
Um But also in medicine,
(23:09):
a lot of times it's an abbreviation for treatment.
So either way,
um you know,
TX Jet was um a way for us to identify with what we actually do and what our purpose is.
Um all we fly is donation and uh transplant teams.
We don't,
uh we don't fly anything else.
So if you,
you know,
call us because you want to go down to,
(23:31):
uh you know,
the,
the islands for Christmas.
Um That's not what we do.
Um We just,
we only fly for people that,
you know,
need us for organ transplant.
Yeah,
I love that.
Are you guys doing work for other OP Os or is this strictly all for Indiana Donor Network Ryland?
You call we haul.
So if I'm another Opo and I say,
(23:52):
hey,
our transportation fell through because we don't have this wonderful system that you guys have.
You're gonna come and help me.
That's what we do every day.
In fact,
um,
you know,
we fly more for transplant centers outside of the state of Indiana than we do for the ones that are in Indiana.
Um It didn't start out that way but um we fly for,
(24:13):
um,
I mean,
I,
I could just start naming them off but it would be ridiculous,
but I would say anything from the,
you know,
east coast and Midwest,
we've flown for everybody and continue to every day.
That's really,
really cool.
Does that help?
Just from a,
from a business perspective,
is that helping support your other staff and your other operation just from,
(24:34):
for the OPO uh really seems like it's a new extension,
not even it might have started as just a,
a system to help you.
But it looks like it's become its own entity almost.
It really has.
And so when we first started out,
um it,
it,
it's,
you know,
it would be a very lengthy conversation that I think your listeners will get incredibly bored with.
(24:55):
But allocation of organs has changed over the years and those rules and how that happens now has really modified where organs are being transplanted and how far they're traveling.
And so it used to be when we started out that,
you know,
that we were flying for our local transplant centers.
And now um we're flying for other people and other transplant centers all over the place.
(25:21):
And so it really has um you know,
it's evolved the way that we do things but um you know,
Indiana donor network doesn't use TX yet.
It's not something that we don't move our people with it.
Like,
you know,
it's,
it's for transplant centers and transplant programs and,
and people that are,
you know,
um recovering organs.
(25:42):
But um you know,
we just um we don't have the need um to utilize it for Indiana organ donor network.
Um uh you know,
work um our teams move about the state and are positioned around the state where they need to be to,
you know,
help with donation.
So,
um yeah,
(26:02):
it really is kind of its own entity um that just evolved from a need um 10 years ago.
Yeah,
that,
that's really,
really fascinating if you guys run out,
let's say all four of your aircraft are on organ transplant trips.
What do you guys do?
Typically somebody's pretty cranky.
Um But unfortunately,
that happens.
(26:22):
Uh it happens quite a bit.
Um In fact,
I would say that it almost happens probably um weekly if not,
uh more than that where we have all of our aircraft and all of our pilots uh have been um utilized.
And we have a,
we have a group of people that have these services available as charter operators that we've vetted and we know that they're running a high quality operation.
(26:49):
But I mean,
Ryland to be just frank with you.
Um Typically,
if we're busy,
they're busy too.
And unfortunately,
there are a limited number of operators out there that can do this kind of work and sometimes organs have to be turned down because we cannot find transport.
(27:09):
Yeah,
that's crazy.
So,
a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs starting small companies in health care.
What are some issues that you've seen in organ donation,
whether it's logistics or just on your operational side that you say,
hey,
I have this problem.
Could one of our listeners come and solve that,
build a company around that?
What are some issues you've been seeing?
(27:30):
Well,
donation and transplantation is in a really interesting space and for your listeners that are,
you know,
looking into that um donation and transplantation is certainly taking front and center when it comes to legislation in Washington DC.
And um there's a lot of talk about it and it seems to be a um you know,
it,
(27:51):
it,
it crosses party lines so everybody can really get behind the fact that donation and transplantation need to improve.
Um So there are um one of the areas that I think is the most interesting and is going to revolutionize um the way transplant is done and is preservation of organs.
(28:12):
And when I say preservation of organs,
you know,
looking at the ability to maximize um the organ's viability outside of the human body.
So um to put this in perspective,
if you took my heart and you were going to transplant it to someone else,
when once you take that heart out of me,
(28:33):
it actually degrades while it's in that cooler on its way to the person that's going to receive it.
And there's a limit to how long you can keep that outside of the body.
And now with this new technologies that people are trying to develop to actually preserve these organs,
now,
we would be able to find that person that wants my heart that's in say San Francisco and I'm in Indianapolis.
(28:58):
And now all of a sudden with preservation technology,
you would actually be able to move my heart from Indianapolis to San Francisco where in today,
um in the traditional sense,
that would take too long,
even with TX jet,
it would take too long.
Um because that heart would be outside of the human body for too long.
So that's one area that I think has incredible impact,
(29:22):
not only on um you know,
I mean,
humans but also is from an entrepreneurial standpoint,
those are areas that are in high need.
Um and could really uh be developed,
you know,
other areas are logistics.
I mean,
there is plenty of opportunity for people to do exactly what TX Jet did.
Um All throughout the United States,
(29:44):
there is a huge need um for aviation operations um especially when it comes to transplant,
but the environment associated with,
you know,
the environment associated with um getting into aviation at this point.
Um There,
there are quite a few,
I don't want to call them barriers to entry,
(30:05):
but it,
it,
it's a challenge.
Um prices of aircraft are highest they've ever been in the history of.
Um well,
at least as far as I can remember,
um the,
you know,
obviously the markets and,
and,
and what's going on from a financial um standpoint right now is not um incredibly enticing for you to um go out and take a huge lease or loan on an aircraft at this point.
(30:31):
Um So,
you know,
uh the cost of,
you know,
our,
our aviation professionals like pilots is as high as it's ever been,
the demand is through the roof trying to find pilots is almost impossible and then you can get in.
So there are some you know,
there are a lot of barriers but when there are that many barriers,
it's also an opportunity because um if you,
(30:52):
if you have pilots and you have planes,
um you know,
they will come.
So,
yeah,
that,
that's really good advice for or just a little like tidbits for a lot of our listeners.
I know that'll be appreciated for random question for you.
The I saw some news that one of those perfusion companies recently just purchased an airline.
(31:15):
Have you heard about that?
Um So I'm sorry,
who,
who purchased an airline?
I can't remember.
I think it was one of the maybe trans medics um bought a private aviation.
Yeah,
I think they were,
I think they were looking to actually uh get into the aviation transport.
(31:35):
Uh and I think they did,
did they uh I'm not super familiar with that transaction.
I think maybe they purchased one,
somebody that already existed out there in the space.
Yeah,
I believe so.
They did some acquisition of a,
of a small 1 35 or,
or mid size 1 35.
Yeah,
I,
I was curious on,
on your take for that.
I saw that and I,
I thought one that was a brilliant move on their part.
(31:58):
Uh If they're already working on this perfusion and you already touch on what the perfusion does.
But I,
I believe it's,
it's actually pushing blood through these organs.
It's gonna be really cool to see what network they're gonna build with their technology,
their hardware and this,
this new aviation acquisition that's very cool to watch.
I think people like trans medics are doing work that is going to revolutionize transplantation and actually aligning it with aviation resources.
(32:24):
It,
it,
I,
I don't think it's brilliant.
I think it's common sense.
You know what I mean?
You are in the,
you're in the transport business and so for you to go out there and just expand that so that you're actually operating within all aspects of that train.
It,
it seems like it's almost obvious that that would be your next move.
But,
um,
I'm familiar with trans medics and,
(32:45):
and the things that they are doing in the space are,
are pretty cool.
Yeah,
looking 5,
10 years down the line,
what do you think organ transplantation is gonna look like from a logistics perspective?
Are we gonna see drones flying around with organs or what is it gonna look like?
Are we gonna have really long times to transplant?
Um,
what do you think it's gonna look like,
(33:05):
you know,
for you as well as your listeners?
Um,
and I,
I never said that I should have bought Apple Stock 30 years ago.
So,
um,
uh,
you know,
Man Ryland,
I think that there are some really neat things that are gonna happen.
I mean,
certainly drones in our,
in our,
our,
our big cities,
(33:27):
you know,
on the east coast,
like our Boston's,
New York's,
I think drones are gonna be,
they've already experimented with them.
And in cities like that drones actually have the range to be able to move those organs from point A to point B.
Um,
because you're not moving them over long,
you know,
you're not moving them long distances.
Right.
Um,
(33:47):
it may be only a five or 10 mile flight but because of traffic in the,
the,
the city,
um,
you know,
it would be unacceptable to try and do it by ground.
So,
but for us here in the Midwest,
like if I were trying to move a Oregon from Indianapolis to Colorado,
um that's just not realistic.
I don't think for,
you know,
for us to see,
(34:07):
you know,
drones even in the next decade able to do that in an effective manner.
Um So I think the demand for what we are doing at TX Jet is gonna remain for quite some time.
But I do think that technology and the utilization of technology um is going to expand significantly what we can do in transplantation.
(34:30):
Like I said,
preservation is in,
in both all of the different organs is going to revolutionize things.
Um I think at some point,
we're gonna see xenotransplant being successful.
Um We're gonna see where people are actually able to modify the DNA of animals so that they are producing organs that are transplantable into humans.
Um You know,
(34:51):
I,
I truly believe that um we are gonna see that happen within our lifetimes.
And,
um,
I mean,
hopefully at the end of the day,
all that matters is that there's not a single dang person that loses their life because they're waiting for an organ and didn't get it.
So,
yeah,
I it's a great mission to kind of just enter our wrap up here thinking about your professional life now as it stands,
(35:15):
what's been your core purpose?
You,
you started in EMS you moved to a health care executive and now you're at Indiana Donor Network.
What is your core purpose outside of family?
You mentioned your,
your wife and kids.
Um But outside of that,
what's your core purpose?
Right?
And it,
it man,
it sounds so damn cheesy when I say stuff like this,
(35:36):
but I'll tell you,
I'll go back to what I said earlier.
It's,
you know,
donation and transplantation are something that has become the most professional,
personally and professionally,
the most rewarding thing I've ever done.
Um I love getting up in the morning and getting to see the impact of,
of donation and transplantation.
(35:57):
Um It's,
I don't know,
it kind of becomes part of who you are.
And uh I,
I mean,
I just love to see that work and I would say,
you know,
if,
if I it it is uh it's not just,
it's not just professionally and personally as well.
I just love this mission and I,
I mean,
my core purpose is to make sure that whatever we do we're saving as many damn lives as we possibly can through this mission.
(36:22):
And,
um,
I just,
it's,
it's fun to watch.
I love it for anyone who wants to register as a donor.
Where would they do that?
You can go to www dot register me dot org.
Um,
there's,
uh,
www dot indiana donor network dot org and there's donate life indiana dot org.
(36:43):
Um,
of course,
there's also register to donate at your local BMV when you register your car or you sign up for a,
a driver's license.
Um,
you know,
those are all wonderful ways to sign up and,
and be a lifesaver and I would encourage people to,
um,
educate themselves,
but also talk to your families about donation.
(37:04):
Um,
you know,
it,
it is really important that you let your loved ones know that you want to be a donor.
And,
um,
uh,
I think that it's just such an impactful thing to do and I mean,
I think a lot of us don't think much of it when we go down to the BMB and check the organ box,
but it really is a big deal.
It really is a big deal and it's certainly a lifesaver.
(37:27):
I love that.
Well,
thank you,
Steve for coming on the show today.
I really appreciate your time.
I enjoyed our conversation,
Ryland.
Thank you for having me and I hope you have a wonderful week,
sir.
Thank you for visiting the Medi show brought to you by the Medical Logistics and Transportation Organization,
Medi Apps.
I'm your host,
Ryland Stone.
Today we are speaking with Steve Johnson,
the Chief operating Officer of Indiana Donor Network.
Steve has a vast background in health care Aviation and leads TX Jet,
Indiana Donor Networks Aviation Division.
(00:30):
I hope you enjoy the show.
Hey,
Steve,
thank you so much for coming on the show today.
I really appreciate your time.
Ryland.
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate it as well to just jump right into our conversation.
I already kind of give a little intro on what you do,
but you're with Indiana Donor Network.
Uh If you wanna give me a little bit of background on kind of yourself before your professional career family,
(00:52):
where you were born,
where you're from,
we'll go back and just kind of go through your timeline.
Yeah,
sure.
Um So actually I was born in Las Cruces,
New Mexico,
which is southern New Mexico.
We're probably about 20 minutes from the Mexico border.
Um And uh born and raised there and so went to New Mexico State University.
(01:14):
Uh got interested in um I was actually,
um,
an athlete there at the college and then,
um,
they,
they,
uh,
select courses for you.
We'll see.
And one of them happened to be an EMT course and,
um,
I was able to take it at night and it wasn't,
uh,
interfering with practices and stuff like that.
(01:35):
And,
man,
I tell you,
I just completely geeked out.
I was like,
you gotta be kidding me.
There's like lights and sirens and I got a beer and I get to talk on the radio and um,
man,
I just,
I turned into a little Ricky rescue and uh so I just love the heck out of it.
And I grew up in an aviation family.
So my dad was a pilot and my grandfather was a pilot and um,
(01:57):
so I had learned how to fly at a really young age and one thing led to another.
And next thing,
you know,
I was um um starting an air ambulance company and working to,
you know,
grow and build,
um you know,
critical care transport in Southern New Mexico and West Texas.
So I did that for,
um,
did that for quite a long time and um then ended up running a large air ambulance company out of Dallas,
(02:25):
um called Omni Flight.
We had about 100 and 20 aircraft nationwide that all the critical care transport.
So you're helicopters and airplanes that move people from point A to point B and um I'm a pilot as well as a clinician.
And um just,
um at that point,
I got introduced to,
you know,
traditional hospital leadership um positions because I was dealing with a lot of them,
(02:50):
you know,
providing their helicopter services and that's what brought me to Indiana.
So the,
you know,
and then from there,
I got introduced to Indiana Donor network.
And um that's kind of a funny story that I will probably get to in a minute.
But personally,
I'm married to a absolutely wonderful lady.
(03:10):
Um and I have two of my Children.
One is 21 one's 18 and then I inherited two step heathens.
Um One of them is 12 and one is seven.
I love them both.
Um They'll probably hear that and they'll agree.
Um But um yeah,
and I've got a mutt dog that um um still after four years decides when and when she is not going to be potty trained.
(03:38):
So,
um yeah,
life is insane.
But yeah,
back to the,
uh you know,
back to the,
the OPO world.
Um I actually got sent over to Indiana Donor Network as a consultant and um I didn't know what the hell an OPO was and uh it was,
I,
I thought I was in trouble for getting sent over there actually.
(04:00):
And um man,
I just kind of fell in love with it.
I mean,
donation and transplantation is just such a fascinating um part of medicine and it's so impactful and um it's truly been a privilege um to,
you know,
get to,
get to do that for the last 10 years.
Yeah,
for sure.
Can you give a brief overview of what an OPO is just for the listeners?
(04:22):
That might not be familiar?
Oh,
yeah.
Yeah.
Now that I know what it is after 10 years,
um so an OPO is actually an organ procurement organization.
There are 57 if I'm not mistaken,
op Os in the United States right now.
Um And they are their area,
they call it A DS A or designated service area is actually given to them by C MS in those areas are fairly random.
(04:49):
So for example,
there are four organ procurement organizations in Ohio,
but there's only one in Indiana.
So who knows,
who knows who I think somebody,
uh somebody in DC back in the seventies just had a dartboard and started throwing dart board.
So,
um but regardless that's um organ procurement organizations facilitate organ donation um and transplantation.
(05:14):
So they are the ones that facilitate everything from identifying potential donors.
Um managing those donors,
the recovery of the organs,
the placement of the organs.
Um And so that is,
you know,
they're really the ones that make,
you know,
transplantation ha happen other than of course,
the transplant centers who do the um actual transplant of the organ.
(05:36):
So,
yeah,
it's pretty interesting stuff.
OK.
And then what is a day in the life of,
for,
for you look like you're the chief operating officer.
Correct?
Yeah.
Um,
so it's all smoke and mirrors.
Um,
I fly a desk most of the time.
Um,
I,
um,
I basically blame everybody in the organization for,
(05:57):
um,
both everything that goes right and wrong and pretend like I'm working hard.
Um,
so I'm joking.
Um,
so,
you know,
donation and transplantation is such an,
you know,
everybody thinks their jobs are complicated,
everybody in health care thinks that whatever they're doing is complicated.
And so this is I'm sure familiar.
(06:18):
Um But I was just blown away with the number of things that have to happen for transplantation to take place.
There's such so few people that can actually be organ donors at the end of the day.
Now,
everybody can sign up to be an organ donor.
But,
you know,
there are a lot of things that could possibly rule you out,
you know,
(06:38):
and then,
you know,
so there's so many conditions that have to be met and then trying to make sure that we um you know,
you're tuning up those organs,
you're trying to make sure that those organs are functioning at their best capacity for the person that's actually gonna receive them.
Um You have to make sure those organs actually get to the people that need them in a timely fashion.
(06:59):
You know,
if you break down on the side of the road,
somebody's life saving heart is going to go in a trash can and that's just not acceptable.
So,
um,
you know,
just all of the timing and logistics and the things that go on,
um,
is really how we spend our days and nights.
And as you can imagine,
there is no,
um,
(07:19):
there is no day off.
I mean,
transplantation and medicine in general are 24 7,
but this certainly is.
Yeah,
and kind of to segue,
uh,
Indiana general Network is very unique.
You guys are actually operating your own aircraft,
which I'm assuming is directly to support this urgency that you spoke of a moment ago um for organ transplantation to make sure you can get them where they need to go.
(07:41):
Is that right?
Yes,
it is.
And so,
you know,
um really what was happening was 10 years ago when I was brought in as a consultant.
And,
you know,
the first thing what they were bringing me in for was because of my aviation background and expertise in that because I had been doing critical care transport for so long.
And what I found was is that,
(08:03):
you know,
these,
these op Os um and these transplant centers,
they not only could they not find transportation,
um They needed it at,
you know,
they needed transportation 24 hours a day,
seven days a week and they needed it at 2 a.m. because if you think about it,
donation doesn't happen at 2 p.m. it happens at 2 a.m. and you need a private jet because you can't hop on a Southwest Airlines flight and get to where you need to consistently.
(08:29):
Um,
and somebody's life is in,
you know,
I mean,
somebody's life is in the hands of whoever's carrying that cooler.
Um,
and so what we did was is,
you know,
I came in and I talked to him and I looked at what they were doing and where they were going and what the need was and it was pretty clear that,
you know,
they needed,
they needed aviation support.
(08:49):
And what does it look like before?
Sorry to cut you off.
But what did it look like before kind of getting your guys's aircraft?
What did a process look like to allocate transportation or let's say?
So,
I'm in Colorado right now.
If I am,
you and we have a heart that needs to go from here to Indiana.
What were you guys doing in the past?
So what,
how it works with most Op Os across the United States is they have to call a broker.
(09:12):
These are the same people that fly bankers from point A to point B.
Um,
you know,
understand that these charter companies that are out there that fly these uh private aircraft,
um,
they're not staffed um to fly at 2 a.m. their staff to fly,
you know,
at eight in the morning,
take somebody to a meeting and bring them back home that day or,
(09:36):
you know,
whatever the,
whatever that might be.
So we,
you know,
so sometimes it's spur of the moment,
you know,
not only is it 2 a.m. but we need an airplane right now.
And so it was really challenging for these OP Os all over the United States to be able to find somebody that was willing to do that.
Um,
and even then it,
the,
(09:56):
the expense associated with private aviation can be extreme.
And so,
yeah,
it's,
it's,
it is,
it is a big challenge for OP Os to this day that don't have,
you know,
aviation resources that are consistent.
Um And you know,
a lot of times,
you know,
the other thing is,
is these people that are in donation and transplantation,
(10:17):
their expertise is in donation and transplantation,
not aviation.
And so they're depending on somebody else to make sure that not only are these aircraft available,
but they're gonna get the job done and they're gonna get it done safely.
Um You know,
there is a lot of bad practice out there when it comes to private aviation as you know,
you can imagine.
So,
(10:38):
you know,
it's,
it really truly is one of the biggest challenges for donation and transplantation today is,
is the logistics and moving people.
Yeah,
that,
that's fascinating.
And I know there's aviation is a really big industry and it's cool that you've been able to mash up both of your previous experiences uh for Indiana donor network.
So,
so now kind of going back again.
(10:58):
You're at Indiana Donor Network as that consultant.
Uh They've brought you in and said,
hey,
we need help with our aviation.
What are you recommending?
Where were you kind of guiding them?
And then eventually you obviously came on staff with them,
walk me through that.
Yeah.
So um you gotta understand it's an incredibly popular thing to do to go to a board of directors and be like,
(11:18):
hey,
by the way,
guys,
I wanna buy some private jets.
Um Yeah,
that always,
yeah,
that always works out great.
Um But that is actually what happened.
Um you know,
I came in and then,
and I was still in a consultant situation and,
you know,
I briefed the CEO as well as the board and said that,
you know,
this was something that was attainable,
um that nobody needed to be frightened of the idea of starting a nonprofit aviation company.
(11:45):
Um and that,
you know,
the,
the numbers were definitely there to support it.
The need was there to support it.
And um you know,
they could,
they could do it and do it well.
And so,
um it actually was not as hard of a sell as I thought because there's just such a need for it.
(12:06):
And so we started and,
and,
and,
and what was great was,
is we were able to start a nonprofit um aviation jet company um and start it just the way it should be.
You know,
we made sure to evaluate what type of aircraft we were gonna use.
Um,
what was going to fulfill the mission.
Um,
what was going to be the most economical,
(12:27):
what was gonna be the least amount of maintenance,
how we were going to develop our training programs with our pilots,
um,
and all of those things and,
you know,
it's,
it,
um,
it has not only been successful but it's,
it's just such a cool model and I love watching,
you know,
these airplanes fly every day and,
and see the impact that it has on the industry.
(12:47):
Um um you know,
back to what you were asking me about me though is um I mean,
Ryland,
it,
it,
I know that it,
it,
whenever you have some executive that says this stuff,
it sounds like an elevator speech,
but I gotta tell you that it is the most fulfilling thing I've ever done personally as well as professionally.
(13:10):
Um I get to interact with these people that not only the donor families but also the recipients and I get to see the impact that donation has on,
on both of those um sides.
And um I tell you,
I mean,
I'm a guy,
man,
I like cars,
I like jets.
I,
you know,
yell at the TV when football's on.
Um,
man,
(13:31):
I cry all the time.
I mean,
it is a tear jerker when you see the impact that donation has on people and just to work in that every single day,
you know,
I mean,
I was in critical care transport for so long and certainly impactful.
But there's just something that is amazing about watching somebody get a second chance at life and,
and watching,
(13:51):
you know,
somebody see their son or daughter or mother or father,
you know,
um,
walk out of the hospital when they never thought they would.
Um,
it's just,
it's just one of those things that it's really great to wake up and get to do.
Yeah,
it's,
it's really cool what you guys are doing and what you're able to accomplish um for,
for the general population and make sure organs are accessible as you were building TX Jet.
(14:16):
What were some issues that you guys were running into?
You spoke to kind of just procuring different aircraft.
What are you guys flying?
Yes,
so we chose um So we chose what's called the citation citation CJ three.
Um It's a,
a passenger um potentially uh well,
we'll just say eight passenger,
small private jet.
(14:37):
It,
it's uniquely um modeled for what we do.
So,
um a few scenarios,
one,
you know,
you got big jet,
small jets,
big jets,
it's not just the price to buy jets,
it's how much does it cost to operate them?
How much fuel do they soak.
(14:59):
Um And really those are the things that you need to look at.
Do they need long runways?
Can they land on short runways?
All of these things are very important to evaluate.
Well,
donation and transplantation can happen anywhere um in any kind of weather,
any time of the day or night.
Um And so you needed an aircraft that was an all weather aircraft,
it needed to be fast,
(15:20):
we needed to be able to go into short fields or short runways.
Um And we needed,
you know,
an avionics and capability of an aircraft that um was,
I mean,
pretty broad.
Um We also needed to be able to have long enough legs that we could fly 1000 miles nonstop.
Um because that's pretty much as far as you're gonna go with,
(15:41):
with organs is probably not much more than 1000 miles.
And so the CG three is frankly the only aircraft in private aviation that has all of those things and it just so happens that it's probably one of the most economical aircraft to fly very,
very,
very low cost in comparison to a lot of other private jets.
(16:02):
And so it really,
and it provided a comfort,
comfortable uh environment for our surgeons who are flying in the back with the organs and going out and back.
But for us,
as pilots,
the technology and the safety and the redundancies were what we were looking for.
And these aircraft are just incredible with just advanced avionics,
(16:22):
I mean,
artificial vision.
Um you know,
these things really reduce the workload and increase the safety margin in the cockpit,
like nothing I've ever seen.
Um,
you know,
these aircraft,
I mean,
I don't,
you know,
for your listeners,
I don't want them to sound,
to sound bad,
but we're two generations ahead of what your commercial airlines have,
you know,
(16:42):
two generations ahead of what the avionics are in a 7 37 for Southwest.
And that's not bad.
It's not that theirs aren't safe.
It's just,
ours are so much more advanced And,
um,
so those were all the things that we kind of were looking for and,
and have,
you know,
really capitalized on.
So it's pretty cool.
Yeah,
for sure.
(17:03):
Were there any challenges in?
So,
like,
as you guys got these planes and now you're kind of going forward with the next step is,
yeah,
of course.
I mean,
I mean,
we were fortunate that I was surrounded by a lot of people who not only,
um,
had a lot of knowledge associated with aviation donation but you,
you know,
(17:23):
we,
it,
so the first thing is you're buying a jet,
it's expensive,
you know,
and you have to prove yourself and,
and,
um,
you have to be financially viable,
you need to be operationally viable and when you get out of the gate,
um,
you don't have those economies of scale and you're still trying to understand and learn,
(17:45):
um,
you know,
where we're going,
you know,
how are we gonna evolve this?
But,
you know,
it really,
you know,
no pun intended it took off very,
very quickly and the direction for us fortunately was very clear.
Um,
I tell people,
the unique thing about running donation,
aviation operations is the,
(18:07):
I tell them we have a,
you call,
we hall um,
mentality.
Um,
that's our deal,
you call and we haul and,
you know,
people,
you know,
it,
it doesn't matter,
day or night or when it is,
you know,
that's,
that's what we have to do.
So we were able to um get our first aircraft and then shortly thereafter,
(18:28):
I don't think it was more than,
you know,
a year and a half or two years,
we were able to go ahead and purchase our second aircraft and um now we're actually operating four aircraft and um I believe we're now at 21 pilots and we have pilot staffing,
staffing those four aircraft,
24 7 and multiple um shifts of pilots so that um we always have people available um for going out.
(18:55):
So,
are you guys sorry?
Uh Are you guys operating similar to that air ambulance background that you had or these people on,
on shift at a base like a fire department or what do you guys?
So that's a good question.
So,
um we don't staff,
clinicians like a critical care transport environment would,
so they would have a pilot and then they would have a nurse or a medic or a combination of such in the back of the helicopter or airplane um our,
(19:20):
the people that,
that are in the back of our aircraft or if we have someone in the back of our aircraft,
sometimes we're just trans or we're just transporting the organ.
Um,
but most times we actually have surgeons as well as their assistants that are flying in the back of the aircraft.
So we don't really control that.
So they're just our passengers.
Um,
but our pilots have,
(19:41):
they work on call.
And so the way it works for the FAA and Avi aviators is the second that we get a phone call.
Um And we take that phone call,
our duty day starts and we only have 14 hours that we can fly until we turn into a pumpkin.
And then after that 14 hours,
(20:03):
you have to have 10 hours of uninterrupted rest before you can start flying again.
So,
um and here's the interesting thing,
say you only fly six hours and then you go into your rest period.
You still,
even though if you only flew for six hours,
you still then have to have 10 hours of uninterrupted rest before that resets and you have 14 hours again.
(20:26):
Does that make sense?
Yeah,
and that,
that's,
I can see how that could be incredibly challenging for incredibly challenging.
Yeah,
imagine,
imagine,
you know,
you guys,
we fly to,
you know,
let's say we fly to Georgia and works here in Indianapolis.
We fly to Georgia and the or time gets delayed.
And so now they're sitting there on the ground for three or four hours,
(20:47):
they,
you know,
flew out there and now our pilots are sitting there and all of a sudden you're saying,
are we gonna have enough duty time to take once that organ comes out?
Do we have enough duty time to actually get that organ to where it needs to go?
So,
yeah,
we have logistics and things that are challenges that,
um,
are unique to our industry and we really have to be aware and,
(21:08):
and,
and competent with those and there are times that we actually have to send another airplane,
um,
because our pilots are gonna run out of duty times.
So,
um,
but like that,
that,
that would be a bummer if they're all the way out there and you're like,
oh,
I gotta send another plane out of time.
You know,
it is.
But at the same time,
what's funny about transplantation is nobody bats an eye because we know what is happening on the other end.
(21:34):
Um,
you know,
if it doesn't get done,
I mean,
somebody's,
you know,
somebody's donation of a life saving organ isn't gonna get used and somebody on the other end isn't gonna get it.
And,
um,
I'm not just saying that,
like the pilots staff,
like,
I mean,
it,
it's incredible to watch that community work because they all understand what the,
(21:56):
what the,
what's,
what's happening.
Yeah.
No,
I'm sure.
And I'm sure that really helps with culture to have a unified mission that you guys can all focus on and all know that even if you're tired,
even if you have a frustrating day before work,
um that you guys are,
are coming together and helping people.
Um And it really is,
it,
(22:16):
it's fun to watch and then,
you know,
I mean,
I know you,
I mean,
in,
in medicine it seems like everybody,
everybody understands the impact that,
you know,
health care has on people in a positive way.
But doesn't mean you,
you,
you can't be cranky about it.
Um uh donation and transplant.
It's just funny to it.
It,
it really is um um it's a well orchestrated symphony of people that have um incredibly big brains and incredibly big egos and they just all come together to make it happen and it's,
(22:48):
it,
it really is a neat thing to see as a human.
Yeah,
I'm sure uh for TX Jet and for,
I think I forgot to mention this earlier.
But can you tell me what the,
the TX and TX Jet means?
Yeah.
So TX is uh really um you know,
in,
in donation and transplantation,
TX stands for transplant.
Um But also in medicine,
(23:09):
a lot of times it's an abbreviation for treatment.
So either way,
um you know,
TX Jet was um a way for us to identify with what we actually do and what our purpose is.
Um all we fly is donation and uh transplant teams.
We don't,
uh we don't fly anything else.
So if you,
you know,
call us because you want to go down to,
(23:31):
uh you know,
the,
the islands for Christmas.
Um That's not what we do.
Um We just,
we only fly for people that,
you know,
need us for organ transplant.
Yeah,
I love that.
Are you guys doing work for other OP Os or is this strictly all for Indiana Donor Network Ryland?
You call we haul.
So if I'm another Opo and I say,
(23:52):
hey,
our transportation fell through because we don't have this wonderful system that you guys have.
You're gonna come and help me.
That's what we do every day.
In fact,
um,
you know,
we fly more for transplant centers outside of the state of Indiana than we do for the ones that are in Indiana.
Um It didn't start out that way but um we fly for,
(24:13):
um,
I mean,
I,
I could just start naming them off but it would be ridiculous,
but I would say anything from the,
you know,
east coast and Midwest,
we've flown for everybody and continue to every day.
That's really,
really cool.
Does that help?
Just from a,
from a business perspective,
is that helping support your other staff and your other operation just from,
(24:34):
for the OPO uh really seems like it's a new extension,
not even it might have started as just a,
a system to help you.
But it looks like it's become its own entity almost.
It really has.
And so when we first started out,
um it,
it,
it's,
you know,
it would be a very lengthy conversation that I think your listeners will get incredibly bored with.
(24:55):
But allocation of organs has changed over the years and those rules and how that happens now has really modified where organs are being transplanted and how far they're traveling.
And so it used to be when we started out that,
you know,
that we were flying for our local transplant centers.
And now um we're flying for other people and other transplant centers all over the place.
(25:21):
And so it really has um you know,
it's evolved the way that we do things but um you know,
Indiana donor network doesn't use TX yet.
It's not something that we don't move our people with it.
Like,
you know,
it's,
it's for transplant centers and transplant programs and,
and people that are,
you know,
um recovering organs.
(25:42):
But um you know,
we just um we don't have the need um to utilize it for Indiana organ donor network.
Um uh you know,
work um our teams move about the state and are positioned around the state where they need to be to,
you know,
help with donation.
So,
um yeah,
(26:02):
it really is kind of its own entity um that just evolved from a need um 10 years ago.
Yeah,
that,
that's really,
really fascinating if you guys run out,
let's say all four of your aircraft are on organ transplant trips.
What do you guys do?
Typically somebody's pretty cranky.
Um But unfortunately,
that happens.
(26:22):
Uh it happens quite a bit.
Um In fact,
I would say that it almost happens probably um weekly if not,
uh more than that where we have all of our aircraft and all of our pilots uh have been um utilized.
And we have a,
we have a group of people that have these services available as charter operators that we've vetted and we know that they're running a high quality operation.
(26:49):
But I mean,
Ryland to be just frank with you.
Um Typically,
if we're busy,
they're busy too.
And unfortunately,
there are a limited number of operators out there that can do this kind of work and sometimes organs have to be turned down because we cannot find transport.
(27:09):
Yeah,
that's crazy.
So,
a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs starting small companies in health care.
What are some issues that you've seen in organ donation,
whether it's logistics or just on your operational side that you say,
hey,
I have this problem.
Could one of our listeners come and solve that,
build a company around that?
What are some issues you've been seeing?
(27:30):
Well,
donation and transplantation is in a really interesting space and for your listeners that are,
you know,
looking into that um donation and transplantation is certainly taking front and center when it comes to legislation in Washington DC.
And um there's a lot of talk about it and it seems to be a um you know,
it,
(27:51):
it,
it crosses party lines so everybody can really get behind the fact that donation and transplantation need to improve.
Um So there are um one of the areas that I think is the most interesting and is going to revolutionize um the way transplant is done and is preservation of organs.
(28:12):
And when I say preservation of organs,
you know,
looking at the ability to maximize um the organ's viability outside of the human body.
So um to put this in perspective,
if you took my heart and you were going to transplant it to someone else,
when once you take that heart out of me,
(28:33):
it actually degrades while it's in that cooler on its way to the person that's going to receive it.
And there's a limit to how long you can keep that outside of the body.
And now with this new technologies that people are trying to develop to actually preserve these organs,
now,
we would be able to find that person that wants my heart that's in say San Francisco and I'm in Indianapolis.
(28:58):
And now all of a sudden with preservation technology,
you would actually be able to move my heart from Indianapolis to San Francisco where in today,
um in the traditional sense,
that would take too long,
even with TX jet,
it would take too long.
Um because that heart would be outside of the human body for too long.
So that's one area that I think has incredible impact,
(29:22):
not only on um you know,
I mean,
humans but also is from an entrepreneurial standpoint,
those are areas that are in high need.
Um and could really uh be developed,
you know,
other areas are logistics.
I mean,
there is plenty of opportunity for people to do exactly what TX Jet did.
Um All throughout the United States,
(29:44):
there is a huge need um for aviation operations um especially when it comes to transplant,
but the environment associated with,
you know,
the environment associated with um getting into aviation at this point.
Um There,
there are quite a few,
I don't want to call them barriers to entry,
(30:05):
but it,
it,
it's a challenge.
Um prices of aircraft are highest they've ever been in the history of.
Um well,
at least as far as I can remember,
um the,
you know,
obviously the markets and,
and,
and what's going on from a financial um standpoint right now is not um incredibly enticing for you to um go out and take a huge lease or loan on an aircraft at this point.
(30:31):
Um So,
you know,
uh the cost of,
you know,
our,
our aviation professionals like pilots is as high as it's ever been,
the demand is through the roof trying to find pilots is almost impossible and then you can get in.
So there are some you know,
there are a lot of barriers but when there are that many barriers,
it's also an opportunity because um if you,
(30:52):
if you have pilots and you have planes,
um you know,
they will come.
So,
yeah,
that,
that's really good advice for or just a little like tidbits for a lot of our listeners.
I know that'll be appreciated for random question for you.
The I saw some news that one of those perfusion companies recently just purchased an airline.
(31:15):
Have you heard about that?
Um So I'm sorry,
who,
who purchased an airline?
I can't remember.
I think it was one of the maybe trans medics um bought a private aviation.
Yeah,
I think they were,
I think they were looking to actually uh get into the aviation transport.
(31:35):
Uh and I think they did,
did they uh I'm not super familiar with that transaction.
I think maybe they purchased one,
somebody that already existed out there in the space.
Yeah,
I believe so.
They did some acquisition of a,
of a small 1 35 or,
or mid size 1 35.
Yeah,
I,
I was curious on,
on your take for that.
I saw that and I,
I thought one that was a brilliant move on their part.
(31:58):
Uh If they're already working on this perfusion and you already touch on what the perfusion does.
But I,
I believe it's,
it's actually pushing blood through these organs.
It's gonna be really cool to see what network they're gonna build with their technology,
their hardware and this,
this new aviation acquisition that's very cool to watch.
I think people like trans medics are doing work that is going to revolutionize transplantation and actually aligning it with aviation resources.
(32:24):
It,
it,
I,
I don't think it's brilliant.
I think it's common sense.
You know what I mean?
You are in the,
you're in the transport business and so for you to go out there and just expand that so that you're actually operating within all aspects of that train.
It,
it seems like it's almost obvious that that would be your next move.
But,
um,
I'm familiar with trans medics and,
(32:45):
and the things that they are doing in the space are,
are pretty cool.
Yeah,
looking 5,
10 years down the line,
what do you think organ transplantation is gonna look like from a logistics perspective?
Are we gonna see drones flying around with organs or what is it gonna look like?
Are we gonna have really long times to transplant?
Um,
what do you think it's gonna look like,
(33:05):
you know,
for you as well as your listeners?
Um,
and I,
I never said that I should have bought Apple Stock 30 years ago.
So,
um,
uh,
you know,
Man Ryland,
I think that there are some really neat things that are gonna happen.
I mean,
certainly drones in our,
in our,
our,
our big cities,
(33:27):
you know,
on the east coast,
like our Boston's,
New York's,
I think drones are gonna be,
they've already experimented with them.
And in cities like that drones actually have the range to be able to move those organs from point A to point B.
Um,
because you're not moving them over long,
you know,
you're not moving them long distances.
Right.
Um,
(33:47):
it may be only a five or 10 mile flight but because of traffic in the,
the,
the city,
um,
you know,
it would be unacceptable to try and do it by ground.
So,
but for us here in the Midwest,
like if I were trying to move a Oregon from Indianapolis to Colorado,
um that's just not realistic.
I don't think for,
you know,
for us to see,
(34:07):
you know,
drones even in the next decade able to do that in an effective manner.
Um So I think the demand for what we are doing at TX Jet is gonna remain for quite some time.
But I do think that technology and the utilization of technology um is going to expand significantly what we can do in transplantation.
(34:30):
Like I said,
preservation is in,
in both all of the different organs is going to revolutionize things.
Um I think at some point,
we're gonna see xenotransplant being successful.
Um We're gonna see where people are actually able to modify the DNA of animals so that they are producing organs that are transplantable into humans.
Um You know,
(34:51):
I,
I truly believe that um we are gonna see that happen within our lifetimes.
And,
um,
I mean,
hopefully at the end of the day,
all that matters is that there's not a single dang person that loses their life because they're waiting for an organ and didn't get it.
So,
yeah,
I it's a great mission to kind of just enter our wrap up here thinking about your professional life now as it stands,
(35:15):
what's been your core purpose?
You,
you started in EMS you moved to a health care executive and now you're at Indiana Donor Network.
What is your core purpose outside of family?
You mentioned your,
your wife and kids.
Um But outside of that,
what's your core purpose?
Right?
And it,
it man,
it sounds so damn cheesy when I say stuff like this,
(35:36):
but I'll tell you,
I'll go back to what I said earlier.
It's,
you know,
donation and transplantation are something that has become the most professional,
personally and professionally,
the most rewarding thing I've ever done.
Um I love getting up in the morning and getting to see the impact of,
of donation and transplantation.
(35:57):
Um It's,
I don't know,
it kind of becomes part of who you are.
And uh I,
I mean,
I just love to see that work and I would say,
you know,
if,
if I it it is uh it's not just,
it's not just professionally and personally as well.
I just love this mission and I,
I mean,
my core purpose is to make sure that whatever we do we're saving as many damn lives as we possibly can through this mission.
(36:22):
And,
um,
I just,
it's,
it's fun to watch.
I love it for anyone who wants to register as a donor.
Where would they do that?
You can go to www dot register me dot org.
Um,
there's,
uh,
www dot indiana donor network dot org and there's donate life indiana dot org.
(36:43):
Um,
of course,
there's also register to donate at your local BMV when you register your car or you sign up for a,
a driver's license.
Um,
you know,
those are all wonderful ways to sign up and,
and be a lifesaver and I would encourage people to,
um,
educate themselves,
but also talk to your families about donation.
(37:04):
Um,
you know,
it,
it is really important that you let your loved ones know that you want to be a donor.
And,
um,
uh,
I think that it's just such an impactful thing to do and I mean,
I think a lot of us don't think much of it when we go down to the BMB and check the organ box,
but it really is a big deal.
It really is a big deal and it's certainly a lifesaver.
(37:27):
I love that.
Well,
thank you,
Steve for coming on the show today.
I really appreciate your time.
I enjoyed our conversation,
Ryland.
Thank you for having me and I hope you have a wonderful week,
sir.
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