April 13, 2022 • 24 mins
What drives your members to join and participate in your association? Do you really understand their motivators? Listen to speaker, author, and advisor Todd Henry discuss the approach he lays out in his book, The Motivation Code, and how it applies to association professionals. Understand that your members’ motivators will be different from yours, and learn what motivates them, and you’ll be much closer to creating programs, content, and member benefits that meet their needs.
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(00:05):
Welcome to the member engagementshow with Higher Logic,
the podcast for Association ProfessionalsLooking to boost retention,
gain new membersand deepen member involvement.
Each episode I'll bring on some experts.
We'll talk shop about engagement
and you'll walk away with strategiesproven to transform your organization.
I'm Beth Arrittan association evangelist with over
25 years experiencein marketing and member engagement.
(00:28):
And I'm so happy you're here.
Now let's start the show.
Hello, everyone,and thanks for joining us for today's
Member Engagement Show podcast.
Have after admitto being super excited about this one
because I've been a fan of today'sguest for a long time
and I can't wait to talk with youabout his new book.
So our guest is Todd Henry.
If you don't know him, he's an author.
(00:50):
He's an international speaker, consultantand advisor, and he has four books out.
The Accidental Creative, Herding Tigersand the latest one,
The Motivation Code ishave been translated into more
than a dozen languagesand they all happen to be on my bookshelf
and audible now that I think aboutit, but only in English.
So welcome and thank youso much for taking time to be here today.
(01:13):
Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
I was drivingand I was listening to the motivation code
and I couldn't help thinking abouthow it relates to the nature of people
who join associations and engage.
Could you explain a little bit aboutthe motivation code and how it works?
Yeah, so I came across this research
several years agonow, about six years ago, a friend of mine
(01:34):
who had been at Gallup for 20 years
had left Gallup several yearsbefore and had been kind of
in stealth mode and knewexactly what he'd been working on.
And he contacted me, said,
Hey, you need to try this motivationresearch that I just came across.
And so he had been workingwith a group of people on
this IMCOresearch, motivation code research.
(01:55):
It turns out that the researchhas been going on for about 50 years.
They'd analyzed over a millionachievements, stories
conducted over 100,000 interviewsover the course of that time.
And what they discovered
was that there are about one thirdabout there exactly 27 unique ways
that people talk about moments of deepengagement and satisfaction in their work.
(02:16):
27 unique ways
that people talk about what drives that,what motivates them, those peak moments.
And so I was intrigued.
I took the assessment,
it completely nailed me,just like you said, that it nailed you.
And I thought, Boy, I've got to getinvolved with this work in some way.
And so over the course of the next severalyears, we began working on the book
that became the motivation code,which released in 2020.
(02:38):
Fall of 2020, was a perfect timeto release a book, as you can imagine,
but released in fall of 2020.
And we just had
have had phenomenal responseto the book and, you know,
sort of like you and like me,so many people have said that
they've discovered things about themselvesthat they always suspected
but never really have words for.
(02:59):
And so that's really pretty muchwhat we've been doing.
Your motivation code, as we describeit, is the combination of your top three,
the five motivators, the top three,the five things that drive engagement,
that drive involvement.
Often, you know, what is itthat activates involvement in some kind of
participatory event or an outcomemaybe that you're driving toward?
(03:24):
So typically we like to talk about them
as activate or motivations,the things that get you involved.
For example, for me, meet the challenge ismy activate or motivation.
Meaning if you come to me and say, Todd,I don't know if this is possible, but
I'm already in veryI don't care what comes out.
Of course it's possible. What is it?What are we going to do?
There are process motivations.
Which are those motivationsthat can keep you involved, that sustain
(03:45):
you over the long period of workthat you're involved with.
And then there are outcome motivationsthat are the motivations
we tend to drive towards.
So for me, for example, one of my outcomemotivations is make an impact,
meaning I want to see my distinct impacton the work in some way.
If I don't see my distinct impacton the work, it's not going to me.
My process motivation is somethingthat we call influence behavior,
(04:10):
which means if I see that I'm influencingbehavior, if people are nodding
and smiling and interacting with me likeyou are right now, that keeps me involved.
Whereas oftenwhat I'm driving toward is that impact.
I want to see my unique impact.
Some people don't care about that.
For me, it's
very important and usually the challengeis what gets me involved to begin.
When I was lookingat some of the other codes
(04:31):
and the patterns of people who have them,I would think, okay,
that was me when I was younger,but I'm not really like that anymore.
So is it possible them to evolve over time
or do they shift or just dowe just learn to suppress some of that?
Fortunately, we've been doing this workfor a really long time.
My partners much longer than I have,
and we've had the ability to testand retest people over the course of time.
(04:52):
And what's been discoveredis that while you might
have some shake up in your top motivatorsa little bit.
So you might have
maybe your number one becomes
your number four and your numbertwo becomes your number six.
And numbersix now is your number four. Eight.
Something that was a significant motivatorten years ago
(05:13):
is not likely to dropto the bottom of your list, nor is
something that was at the very bottomof the 27 likely to rise to the top.
So if, for example, be centralwas way at the bottom of your list, it's
very unlikely.
Be Central is suddenly going to beyour number two motivator.
Now, the reason for that and the reasonthat the assessment is so eerily accurate,
(05:33):
we always say it's a little bitlike a magic trick because it kind of is
is that we are the only story drivenpsychometric assessment
in existence that we know of, at leastmeaning that we start with your story.
We ask you to relaythree stories of achievement,
and then we ask you questions aboutthose stories, which is very different.
We're not trying to put you in a box.
(05:54):
We're trying to expoundupon your uniqueness.
There are 17,550 possiblecombinations of top three motivators.
So the idea that you and anyone around youor anybody on your team is going to have
the exact same combination of motivatorsis extremely rare.
Unless you're in a company of tensof thousands of people,
then you might find someonewho has the exact same one.
(06:17):
But the odds are very slim.
So unlike most assessmentswhich typically are like, Are you a this
or are you is that right?
Are you are you are you a Z or
are you a Q or whatever?
What we're trying to doinstead is to show how unique
each and every person is,because that's really a more
accurate description of human dynamicsin human psychology than I think
(06:41):
what some assessments offer,which is really more about
just kind of trying to force people
into categoriesto make them easier to deal with.
That's not what we're trying to do.
It is very different and it's it's unique.
And it's again, that'swhy I resonated so deeply with them.
I have taken, just like you have taken,every assessment under the sun.
And this one,
I found this to be kind of the baselayer of all of the other
(07:03):
all of the other assessmentsthat I've taken.
So it explains thingsabout some of the other assessments
because it sort of offers a more uniqueunderpinning or sort of shows
why not just what, but why I am acertain way , which is pretty exciting.
So for you
with Explore being your number one,I'm sure that you ask a lot of questions.
(07:24):
You're probablyapp captain, ask a lot in meetings
where you're always saying,Now why are we doing this?
And what if we tried this?And what if we tried that?
And if somebody around you is drivenby, say, bring to completion,
which is one of our other motivations,and they just want to get things done.
They want to check off boxesand move on to the next thing.
I'm sure that there probably would be aa little bit of tension
or a little bit of conflict in the meetingbecause you're always saying,
(07:47):
well, hold on, wait a minute.
There are 13 unique questionswe haven't answered yet about this.
We need to go explore theseand make sure we're on the right page.
And they're saying,What are you talking about?
Let's just get it done.Let's move on. It's fine.
Let's just go, you know,and each motivation has its positive
qualities and is necessaryto an effective, functioning team.
But also each motivationhas its own shadow side.
(08:10):
Just like my meetthe challenge motivation.
The shadow side of the challengemotivation is that if
something doesn't feel challenging,I will wait until it feels challenging.
So if I have three months to do somethingand I could easily do it in three months,
I'll waituntil two and a half months. Right.
And then I'll start
because then it'll start to feellike a challenge to be I'll procrastinate
or I'll have big challengeswhere they don't exist.
(08:32):
For somebody who's driven to explore,sometimes you don't know when to suppress
that, explore instinctand maybe it's like late in a project
is not really the righttime to ask a bunch of questions.
You know, we've
pretty much already like the cakeis pretty much baked at this point.
We don't want to tear it upand start all over again.
So there there Shadyside attributesto these motivations as well.
But every motivation is a gift.
(08:53):
And once we learn to understandhow to receive one another
according to those motivations,it changes our collaboration forever.
And I love that you did gointo the genocides and not because those
are the things that you as an explorer,I like to learn things about myself.
And one of the thingsthat is nice about it is you can go,
okay,these are the things I need to look for.
These are the things I work on inreading the book.
(09:15):
I kind of think that
that's sort of what happens
is that we've learned to suppress it morethan we change because yeah, I think so.
But once you understand
that, it's, it's nothing but a shadowside of a very healthy motivation.
It's not unhealthy behavior.
It's just you're trying to satisfy
motivation in an unhealthy way, perhaps
all behaviors, motivated behavior.
(09:36):
I don't care what it is.
You're getting somethingout of everything you do.
And so once you understand that,you can begin to say, okay, wait a minute,
is this am I trying to satisfya motivation in an unhealthy way for me?
Am I trying to create a challengewhere one doesn't exist?
Am I procrastinating in orderto make this deal more difficult?
Right. We're making an impact, right?
Am I overexerting myselftrying to see impact?
(09:59):
Here am I
be inserting myself where I'm not welcomebecause I want to see my impact here.
I always tell peopleif I'm invited to a meeting where
I'm supposed to sit in the backand just kind of listen to the meeting,
within 5 minutesI'll have a whiteboard marker in my hand.
I'll be drawing on the whiteboard.
Right, because that's just the makean impact thing is just important.
It's wired.
But that's also part of the shallow side,right?
(10:20):
Like, listen, it's you don't needto have an impact every single day.
And sometimes I. Exactly right.
That big an impactis going to be one of the other one
or two of mine because Ithat is too much me in a lot of ways.
I try so hard not to take things over orinsert myself, but I just can't help it.
Well, part of it is explorebecause I want to make a difference.
(10:41):
I want I want to see what what's possible.
But then I also I like to make my impact.
I like to have my hand and thingsand be able to see and be when it's done.
Nice talking aboutthat shows on how it does sometimes
cause trouble,even the motivators cause problem.
You talked about the fact that you exploreand somebody else
just want to check things offcan cause an issue as this is a member
(11:02):
engagement show where you tend to focus onhow to do that, engage members.
And one of the things that struck me aboutis listening to the book
was I started wondering what codes,what types of people
are more likely to join associationsand how could we motivate them?
Well, first of all, I thinkI think people join the associations
for all different types of reasons. Right.
Some people like being around other peoplewho are who think similarly to them.
(11:25):
They like to collaborate.
Some people for some people, it'ssay it's a a sign of excelling.
You know, I'm at a place now
where I need to be around peerswho are also excelling at what they do.
There is one motivationthat we call make the grade
and make the gradeis about wanting to be a part of a team
that is seen as eliteor sort of different than everyone else.
(11:50):
And so for them, membershipbecomes really important.
These are the people who are most likelyto become Eagle Scouts.
So the people are most likely to jointhe elite of the elite teams, right?
In any organization,they're going to become Navy SEALs
and then become Navy SEALsto become like SEAL Team six or eight.
Like that's the case.
So they like to join and be aroundother people that signify
(12:11):
that they've sort of made the gradein some way.
I think moreso than looking to specific motivations
or motivators, I think it's more importantreally to kind of understand
what motivates people uniquely so.
One thingthat has been really helpful to me
in sort of a quick and dirty wayto get to motivation to know obviously
(12:31):
the assessment is the most accurate wayto really get at what drives people.
And we've got
obviously a lot of scientific underpinningand lots of experience in research.
Decades of research has gone into it. But,
you know, one sort of quick and dirty wayto kind of at least get people
talking about motivations is to ask them
to think about a moment in their lifewhen they achieve something significant,
(12:52):
you know, somethingthat really sticks in their mind.
And it should be something
that is notable enoughthat it stays in their mind for a while.
It shouldn't be like yesterday.I cook the perfect omelet.
Okay, that's fine. Maybe.
Maybe that's it.
But, like, let's think about something
that's kind of stayed in your mindfor a while.
We remember thatalmost five years from now.
Probably not. Maybe, maybe you will.
Maybe that maybe that's something
you've been working to masterand you finally did it right?
(13:16):
MASTERS One of our motivators,but you ask people to think about what
it was about that momentthat was meaningful to them,
what specifically they did as part of it,what the outcome was
that they were working towardand just get them talking about it.
And by getting themtalking about it, often you can, you know,
get to a place where you startto understand a little more
(13:37):
about what it is that drives them,and you can speak more to their motivation
more uniquely.
So for you, for example,I would imagine that your achievements
had something to do with you taking risks,trying new things,
exploring, asking questions,you know, is that kind of
is that pretty muchwhat you shared on the assessment? Yes.
And so so if I just got you talkingabout those stories
(13:58):
through asking some questionsand just conversation,
I probably could at least centerin on the fact that one of the Lerner
family motivatorsis probably one of your top motivators.
I don't know which one.
Maybe it could be comprehend and express,you know, it could be explore,
it could be, you know, anyany number of other motivators.
But I probably would be ableto at least center
in on the factthat learning is really important,
(14:18):
you know, exploring thingsand asking questions and all of that.
And so if I were going to try totalk to you about joining an association,
the first thing I would want to dois to get
put you in a placewhere you're asking a lot of questions.
I would want to give you a lotof resources, a lot of possible paths.
You know, hey, hereare some ways that you can get involved.
And which of these, you know,what are you curious about?
(14:40):
What are some some things that you reallywould love to know more about?
And let's see if we can find a wayto service those areas
of curiosity versus somebody who let's saysomebody who is driven
by this master motivatorthat we were talking about.
Instead for them,I might want to talk to them about a.
Scribe path.
There is a course with some achievementsthat you check off along the way
(15:05):
and it's a very prescribedthing is going to give you a chance
to really perfect your skills.
You're going to work on perfectingthose skills with other people around you.
You know,those are the kinds of conversations
I would want to have with that person,which is why this is really tricky, right?
Because
that can feel manipulative andit's not really all you're doing is you're
trying to help people see themselvesas part of the organization.
(15:26):
If I'm a manager of a team,you're manipulative for me to say,
You know what,I know you're driven to collaborate.
We've had you in the in a cubiclein the back corner of the office doing
paperwork for the last couple of months.
Maybe I should try to find waysof making your work more collaborative.
That's not manipulative,
that's trying to help people activatetheir motivations more consistently.
(15:46):
And this is kind of a key point.
So many people wait for their workor their circumstances to motivate them.
Instead, once we discover what motivatesus, we can bring it to our work.
It's a much more proactive
way of thinking about motivationinstead of saying,
I wish I could find a job thatmotivated me.
No, no, discover what motivates you andthen learn how to bring that to your work.
That's a totally different wayof framing motivation in the workplace.
(16:10):
That's funny.
Way, way back in the day I read DaleCarnegie is how to Stop
Worrying and Start Living.
And he gives an examplethere of a woman who all she did
remember correctly was typewhatever it was that she was like.
It was the most boring joband she just didn't know what to do.
And finally, when she was like,You know what?
It was a challenge myself.
And she basically didwhat you're talking about.
(16:30):
She found, okay,this is what motivated me, but excelling
and competing against even my own time,it motivates me.
So that's what I'm going to doand that's what it is, right?
Probably that person had discovered Excelto be one of their,
you know, that sort of self competition,to be one of their top motivators.
And that's an incredibly powerful thing.
Once you discover that, like,just like me with Meet the Challenge,
I know I have to structure
(16:51):
my work is a series of challengesnow you know, I wrote a book last summer.
I wrote a book that was twiceas long as any book I've ever written
in about a third of the timeI've ever taken.
And part of that was,
you know, the reason I was able to do thatis because I said,
I know I need to write this many wordsevery single day for this many weeks
and take a day off a week,which I did in order to finish this book.
And it felt like a challengeuntil I was able to stay engaged
(17:13):
and motivated because I was, you know,I had that challenge in front of me.
That's what we really need.
So speakingjust completely hypothetically,
if someone was, you know,Explorer is their number one motivator,
what would they doif they were trying to write a book
and couldn't seem to make themselvessit down and work on it?
You know, that one of the best
(17:35):
things you're going to bring to thatprocess is going to be your curiosity.
You're asking a lot of questions.
You'rereally getting into all the various areas
around a particular topicthat something is really important
when you're writing a bookbecause you want to do great research,
and I'm sure that you probably have had noproblem doing the research for the book.
The challenge probably for youis then taking that research
(17:57):
and deciding onwhat is the most important research
and then actually doing the workof writing that book.
Because you probably
the moment you start writing think, Oh,that makes me think of ten more questions.
I should go explore a bunchof other things I should do, right?
So what I would encourage you to do,so explore, develop them, be central,
are your three top motivatorsaccording to your assessment, right?
(18:21):
So develop is really interestingbecause develop is really about
developing concepts,developing ideas, developing people.
Often what I would encourage you to dois to focus in on one specific
topic, area, one chapter and develop itlike you're developing a person.
Really put a lot of effort and interestinto developing that into something
(18:42):
that is in it of itself
uniquely valuable and staywithin the confines of that chapter.
Before you move on to another ideaor another topic, I'm very different.
I write books in the inside out
one section at a timebecause of the way I'm motivated.
So I might write a little bit of Chaptersix today.
A little bit in chapter two tomorrow.
A little bit Chapter nine the next day.
That's kind of the way that I'm wiredfor somebody like you.
(19:04):
I would say focus on one idea at a time.
Stay on track, have a target,a specific target
for that, and make certain that you are
make certain that youare putting a lot of your voice into it.
I a lot of I a lot of your perspective,a lot of your unique
input because of that
be central thing, don't write abstractly,don't write in theory, but make sure it's
(19:27):
you have a point of viewthat's being expressed in the midst of it.
I think that will keep you on track farbetter than the way
a lot of people try to write books, whichis more abstractly, sort of in layers.
I think you just focusing on one topicand one chapter at a time
would probablybe the best approach for you.
I love to I mean, I ask that just sort oflike a little bit selfishly, not like I.
(19:50):
But I think that that really demonstrates
the underlying issue with peopletrying to get people to an age of.
Associations because they're tryingto be everything to everybody
but with one set of content.
Whereas really you needto kind of see what people are doing,
what they're acting on,and that kind of gives you.
I talk about digital body languagebecause I think that looking
(20:13):
at what people open,what they click on, what they get involved
in, probably more than anythingthey will ever tell you
and more than they probably a lot of timeseven realize about themselves.
And so that looking at thatcan give you an idea what their motivators
are and allow you to give that personthe path that they need to succeed,
(20:33):
which I love about associations and datawhen it's used for good.
Yeah.
And I think part of ittoo is making sure that you're
not just writing things or creatingcontent based upon your motivation.
That's one of the mistakes we tend to dois, is
think that everybody else isgenerally motivated the same way we are.
So for me, I like one of the thingsI've learned with my podcast,
(20:54):
which I've been podcastingsince 2005, the podcast
I like to issue challenges to peoplebecause that's what motivates me.
But some people are like,Why are you preaching at me all the time?
Why are you always like saying,Do this, do that, hey, go do this thing?
I'm like, you know, that's right.
I'm basically pretending as if everybody'smotivated the same way I am, right?
(21:14):
And I can't do that.
It's exhausting to some people.
And so for some people,like people who are driven to explore,
I just need to leave an openended question.
Hey, here's a topicyou might want to go look at.
What do you think about this?
What would what would you doif you were in this position?
That's a very different thing to dothan to say go out and spend 20 minutes
taking a walk and asking these questionsand then report back your answers.
(21:37):
That's that's a challenge. Great.
But I have to be careful about.
So I think we're creating contentfor potential association members
or for association members.
Just be thinking about,okay, I'm writing this
through the lens of my motivationor am I keeping
staying open to the idea that other peopleare differently motivated?
What are three thingsthat marketers really need
to be doing to succeed in 2022?
(21:59):
And they talked about one.
Yeah, I think number one is make surethat you are approaching your marketing
through an empathetic lens,so don't just write as if it's you.
Number two,I think authenticity of the book
called Louder than Wordsthat really covered five key areas.
I'll just kind of very quicklycover them authenticity,
(22:19):
make sure you're putting skin in the game,right?
People can smell it outif you're not being authentic.
Authentic doesn't mean transparency.It means you're putting skin in the game.
People need to see that it really costsyou something that you're really
you really care about what you're doing.
So make sure that is authentic,that you show
that you have skin in the game,make sure it's unique,
make sure that you have some uniquepositioning .
(22:40):
You're saying things differently,make sure it's precise.
A lot of people market with a lot of fogand a lot of like buzzwords
and know be precise.
Be very precisebecause precision forces a decision.
I've never said that before, but it rhymeslike a precision forces decision.
Make sure that you're
speaking with empathy, as we talked about,and then pay attention to timing.
(23:01):
Right.
Like right now,there's a lot still a lot of uncertainty.
We're coming out of a pandemic.
A lot of people are still sort of in this
wait and see modebecause we really don't know.
So just make sure that you're payingattention to the timing of your messaging.
Make sure that it's appropriatelytimed for the circumstances.
Thank you againso much for your time today.
(23:21):
I said four bucks.
I forgot. Louder than words. I'm so sorry.
Oh, no problem.
Now it's six anyway.
So I go. I go quickly. So. Yeah, yeah.
But I'm going to emailyou and ask you about the book.
You just do.
I know that people can find you at ToddHenry home?
I highly recommend the books
and I also highly recommend subscribingto the Accidental Creative Podcast.
(23:44):
It is my number one.
Go to and thank you
for all the wisdom that you have given methrough that through the years.
So thank you again for your timetoday. Really appreciate it.
Thank you.
And thanks everybody else for joining us.
Don't forget to subscribeto the member engagement
through Apple, Google, Amazon, Spotify.
Wherever you listen to podcasts,
you can also write to my weekly
(24:05):
newsletter associationMarketing Poser or AMP,
and you can get that linkin the episode notes. Thanks.
Welcome to the member engagementshow with Higher Logic,
the podcast for Association ProfessionalsLooking to boost retention,
gain new membersand deepen member involvement.
Each episode I'll bring on some experts.
We'll talk shop about engagement
and you'll walk away with strategiesproven to transform your organization.
I'm Beth Arrittan association evangelist with over
25 years experiencein marketing and member engagement.
(00:28):
And I'm so happy you're here.
Now let's start the show.
Hello, everyone,and thanks for joining us for today's
Member Engagement Show podcast.
Have after admitto being super excited about this one
because I've been a fan of today'sguest for a long time
and I can't wait to talk with youabout his new book.
So our guest is Todd Henry.
If you don't know him, he's an author.
(00:50):
He's an international speaker, consultantand advisor, and he has four books out.
The Accidental Creative, Herding Tigersand the latest one,
The Motivation Code ishave been translated into more
than a dozen languagesand they all happen to be on my bookshelf
and audible now that I think aboutit, but only in English.
So welcome and thank youso much for taking time to be here today.
(01:13):
Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
I was drivingand I was listening to the motivation code
and I couldn't help thinking abouthow it relates to the nature of people
who join associations and engage.
Could you explain a little bit aboutthe motivation code and how it works?
Yeah, so I came across this research
several years agonow, about six years ago, a friend of mine
(01:34):
who had been at Gallup for 20 years
had left Gallup several yearsbefore and had been kind of
in stealth mode and knewexactly what he'd been working on.
And he contacted me, said,
Hey, you need to try this motivationresearch that I just came across.
And so he had been workingwith a group of people on
this IMCOresearch, motivation code research.
(01:55):
It turns out that the researchhas been going on for about 50 years.
They'd analyzed over a millionachievements, stories
conducted over 100,000 interviewsover the course of that time.
And what they discovered
was that there are about one thirdabout there exactly 27 unique ways
that people talk about moments of deepengagement and satisfaction in their work.
(02:16):
27 unique ways
that people talk about what drives that,what motivates them, those peak moments.
And so I was intrigued.
I took the assessment,
it completely nailed me,just like you said, that it nailed you.
And I thought, Boy, I've got to getinvolved with this work in some way.
And so over the course of the next severalyears, we began working on the book
that became the motivation code,which released in 2020.
(02:38):
Fall of 2020, was a perfect timeto release a book, as you can imagine,
but released in fall of 2020.
And we just had
have had phenomenal responseto the book and, you know,
sort of like you and like me,so many people have said that
they've discovered things about themselvesthat they always suspected
but never really have words for.
(02:59):
And so that's really pretty muchwhat we've been doing.
Your motivation code, as we describeit, is the combination of your top three,
the five motivators, the top three,the five things that drive engagement,
that drive involvement.
Often, you know, what is itthat activates involvement in some kind of
participatory event or an outcomemaybe that you're driving toward?
(03:24):
So typically we like to talk about them
as activate or motivations,the things that get you involved.
For example, for me, meet the challenge ismy activate or motivation.
Meaning if you come to me and say, Todd,I don't know if this is possible, but
I'm already in veryI don't care what comes out.
Of course it's possible. What is it?What are we going to do?
There are process motivations.
Which are those motivationsthat can keep you involved, that sustain
(03:45):
you over the long period of workthat you're involved with.
And then there are outcome motivationsthat are the motivations
we tend to drive towards.
So for me, for example, one of my outcomemotivations is make an impact,
meaning I want to see my distinct impacton the work in some way.
If I don't see my distinct impacton the work, it's not going to me.
My process motivation is somethingthat we call influence behavior,
(04:10):
which means if I see that I'm influencingbehavior, if people are nodding
and smiling and interacting with me likeyou are right now, that keeps me involved.
Whereas oftenwhat I'm driving toward is that impact.
I want to see my unique impact.
Some people don't care about that.
For me, it's
very important and usually the challengeis what gets me involved to begin.
When I was lookingat some of the other codes
(04:31):
and the patterns of people who have them,I would think, okay,
that was me when I was younger,but I'm not really like that anymore.
So is it possible them to evolve over time
or do they shift or just dowe just learn to suppress some of that?
Fortunately, we've been doing this workfor a really long time.
My partners much longer than I have,
and we've had the ability to testand retest people over the course of time.
(04:52):
And what's been discoveredis that while you might
have some shake up in your top motivatorsa little bit.
So you might have
maybe your number one becomes
your number four and your numbertwo becomes your number six.
And numbersix now is your number four. Eight.
Something that was a significant motivatorten years ago
(05:13):
is not likely to dropto the bottom of your list, nor is
something that was at the very bottomof the 27 likely to rise to the top.
So if, for example, be centralwas way at the bottom of your list, it's
very unlikely.
Be Central is suddenly going to beyour number two motivator.
Now, the reason for that and the reasonthat the assessment is so eerily accurate,
(05:33):
we always say it's a little bitlike a magic trick because it kind of is
is that we are the only story drivenpsychometric assessment
in existence that we know of, at leastmeaning that we start with your story.
We ask you to relaythree stories of achievement,
and then we ask you questions aboutthose stories, which is very different.
We're not trying to put you in a box.
(05:54):
We're trying to expoundupon your uniqueness.
There are 17,550 possiblecombinations of top three motivators.
So the idea that you and anyone around youor anybody on your team is going to have
the exact same combination of motivatorsis extremely rare.
Unless you're in a company of tensof thousands of people,
then you might find someonewho has the exact same one.
(06:17):
But the odds are very slim.
So unlike most assessmentswhich typically are like, Are you a this
or are you is that right?
Are you are you are you a Z or
are you a Q or whatever?
What we're trying to doinstead is to show how unique
each and every person is,because that's really a more
accurate description of human dynamicsin human psychology than I think
(06:41):
what some assessments offer,which is really more about
just kind of trying to force people
into categoriesto make them easier to deal with.
That's not what we're trying to do.
It is very different and it's it's unique.
And it's again, that'swhy I resonated so deeply with them.
I have taken, just like you have taken,every assessment under the sun.
And this one,
I found this to be kind of the baselayer of all of the other
(07:03):
all of the other assessmentsthat I've taken.
So it explains thingsabout some of the other assessments
because it sort of offers a more uniqueunderpinning or sort of shows
why not just what, but why I am acertain way , which is pretty exciting.
So for you
with Explore being your number one,I'm sure that you ask a lot of questions.
(07:24):
You're probablyapp captain, ask a lot in meetings
where you're always saying,Now why are we doing this?
And what if we tried this?And what if we tried that?
And if somebody around you is drivenby, say, bring to completion,
which is one of our other motivations,and they just want to get things done.
They want to check off boxesand move on to the next thing.
I'm sure that there probably would be aa little bit of tension
or a little bit of conflict in the meetingbecause you're always saying,
(07:47):
well, hold on, wait a minute.
There are 13 unique questionswe haven't answered yet about this.
We need to go explore theseand make sure we're on the right page.
And they're saying,What are you talking about?
Let's just get it done.Let's move on. It's fine.
Let's just go, you know,and each motivation has its positive
qualities and is necessaryto an effective, functioning team.
But also each motivationhas its own shadow side.
(08:10):
Just like my meetthe challenge motivation.
The shadow side of the challengemotivation is that if
something doesn't feel challenging,I will wait until it feels challenging.
So if I have three months to do somethingand I could easily do it in three months,
I'll waituntil two and a half months. Right.
And then I'll start
because then it'll start to feellike a challenge to be I'll procrastinate
or I'll have big challengeswhere they don't exist.
(08:32):
For somebody who's driven to explore,sometimes you don't know when to suppress
that, explore instinctand maybe it's like late in a project
is not really the righttime to ask a bunch of questions.
You know, we've
pretty much already like the cakeis pretty much baked at this point.
We don't want to tear it upand start all over again.
So there there Shadyside attributesto these motivations as well.
But every motivation is a gift.
(08:53):
And once we learn to understandhow to receive one another
according to those motivations,it changes our collaboration forever.
And I love that you did gointo the genocides and not because those
are the things that you as an explorer,I like to learn things about myself.
And one of the thingsthat is nice about it is you can go,
okay,these are the things I need to look for.
These are the things I work on inreading the book.
(09:15):
I kind of think that
that's sort of what happens
is that we've learned to suppress it morethan we change because yeah, I think so.
But once you understand
that, it's, it's nothing but a shadowside of a very healthy motivation.
It's not unhealthy behavior.
It's just you're trying to satisfy
motivation in an unhealthy way, perhaps
all behaviors, motivated behavior.
(09:36):
I don't care what it is.
You're getting somethingout of everything you do.
And so once you understand that,you can begin to say, okay, wait a minute,
is this am I trying to satisfya motivation in an unhealthy way for me?
Am I trying to create a challengewhere one doesn't exist?
Am I procrastinating in orderto make this deal more difficult?
Right. We're making an impact, right?
Am I overexerting myselftrying to see impact?
(09:59):
Here am I
be inserting myself where I'm not welcomebecause I want to see my impact here.
I always tell peopleif I'm invited to a meeting where
I'm supposed to sit in the backand just kind of listen to the meeting,
within 5 minutesI'll have a whiteboard marker in my hand.
I'll be drawing on the whiteboard.
Right, because that's just the makean impact thing is just important.
It's wired.
But that's also part of the shallow side,right?
(10:20):
Like, listen, it's you don't needto have an impact every single day.
And sometimes I. Exactly right.
That big an impactis going to be one of the other one
or two of mine because Ithat is too much me in a lot of ways.
I try so hard not to take things over orinsert myself, but I just can't help it.
Well, part of it is explorebecause I want to make a difference.
(10:41):
I want I want to see what what's possible.
But then I also I like to make my impact.
I like to have my hand and thingsand be able to see and be when it's done.
Nice talking aboutthat shows on how it does sometimes
cause trouble,even the motivators cause problem.
You talked about the fact that you exploreand somebody else
just want to check things offcan cause an issue as this is a member
(11:02):
engagement show where you tend to focus onhow to do that, engage members.
And one of the things that struck me aboutis listening to the book
was I started wondering what codes,what types of people
are more likely to join associationsand how could we motivate them?
Well, first of all, I thinkI think people join the associations
for all different types of reasons. Right.
Some people like being around other peoplewho are who think similarly to them.
(11:25):
They like to collaborate.
Some people for some people, it'ssay it's a a sign of excelling.
You know, I'm at a place now
where I need to be around peerswho are also excelling at what they do.
There is one motivationthat we call make the grade
and make the gradeis about wanting to be a part of a team
that is seen as eliteor sort of different than everyone else.
(11:50):
And so for them, membershipbecomes really important.
These are the people who are most likelyto become Eagle Scouts.
So the people are most likely to jointhe elite of the elite teams, right?
In any organization,they're going to become Navy SEALs
and then become Navy SEALsto become like SEAL Team six or eight.
Like that's the case.
So they like to join and be aroundother people that signify
(12:11):
that they've sort of made the gradein some way.
I think moreso than looking to specific motivations
or motivators, I think it's more importantreally to kind of understand
what motivates people uniquely so.
One thingthat has been really helpful to me
in sort of a quick and dirty wayto get to motivation to know obviously
(12:31):
the assessment is the most accurate wayto really get at what drives people.
And we've got
obviously a lot of scientific underpinningand lots of experience in research.
Decades of research has gone into it. But,
you know, one sort of quick and dirty wayto kind of at least get people
talking about motivations is to ask them
to think about a moment in their lifewhen they achieve something significant,
(12:52):
you know, somethingthat really sticks in their mind.
And it should be something
that is notable enoughthat it stays in their mind for a while.
It shouldn't be like yesterday.I cook the perfect omelet.
Okay, that's fine. Maybe.
Maybe that's it.
But, like, let's think about something
that's kind of stayed in your mindfor a while.
We remember thatalmost five years from now.
Probably not. Maybe, maybe you will.
Maybe that maybe that's something
you've been working to masterand you finally did it right?
(13:16):
MASTERS One of our motivators,but you ask people to think about what
it was about that momentthat was meaningful to them,
what specifically they did as part of it,what the outcome was
that they were working towardand just get them talking about it.
And by getting themtalking about it, often you can, you know,
get to a place where you startto understand a little more
(13:37):
about what it is that drives them,and you can speak more to their motivation
more uniquely.
So for you, for example,I would imagine that your achievements
had something to do with you taking risks,trying new things,
exploring, asking questions,you know, is that kind of
is that pretty muchwhat you shared on the assessment? Yes.
And so so if I just got you talkingabout those stories
(13:58):
through asking some questionsand just conversation,
I probably could at least centerin on the fact that one of the Lerner
family motivatorsis probably one of your top motivators.
I don't know which one.
Maybe it could be comprehend and express,you know, it could be explore,
it could be, you know, anyany number of other motivators.
But I probably would be ableto at least center
in on the factthat learning is really important,
(14:18):
you know, exploring thingsand asking questions and all of that.
And so if I were going to try totalk to you about joining an association,
the first thing I would want to dois to get
put you in a placewhere you're asking a lot of questions.
I would want to give you a lotof resources, a lot of possible paths.
You know, hey, hereare some ways that you can get involved.
And which of these, you know,what are you curious about?
(14:40):
What are some some things that you reallywould love to know more about?
And let's see if we can find a wayto service those areas
of curiosity versus somebody who let's saysomebody who is driven
by this master motivatorthat we were talking about.
Instead for them,I might want to talk to them about a.
Scribe path.
There is a course with some achievementsthat you check off along the way
(15:05):
and it's a very prescribedthing is going to give you a chance
to really perfect your skills.
You're going to work on perfectingthose skills with other people around you.
You know,those are the kinds of conversations
I would want to have with that person,which is why this is really tricky, right?
Because
that can feel manipulative andit's not really all you're doing is you're
trying to help people see themselvesas part of the organization.
(15:26):
If I'm a manager of a team,you're manipulative for me to say,
You know what,I know you're driven to collaborate.
We've had you in the in a cubiclein the back corner of the office doing
paperwork for the last couple of months.
Maybe I should try to find waysof making your work more collaborative.
That's not manipulative,
that's trying to help people activatetheir motivations more consistently.
(15:46):
And this is kind of a key point.
So many people wait for their workor their circumstances to motivate them.
Instead, once we discover what motivatesus, we can bring it to our work.
It's a much more proactive
way of thinking about motivationinstead of saying,
I wish I could find a job thatmotivated me.
No, no, discover what motivates you andthen learn how to bring that to your work.
That's a totally different wayof framing motivation in the workplace.
(16:10):
That's funny.
Way, way back in the day I read DaleCarnegie is how to Stop
Worrying and Start Living.
And he gives an examplethere of a woman who all she did
remember correctly was typewhatever it was that she was like.
It was the most boring joband she just didn't know what to do.
And finally, when she was like,You know what?
It was a challenge myself.
And she basically didwhat you're talking about.
(16:30):
She found, okay,this is what motivated me, but excelling
and competing against even my own time,it motivates me.
So that's what I'm going to doand that's what it is, right?
Probably that person had discovered Excelto be one of their,
you know, that sort of self competition,to be one of their top motivators.
And that's an incredibly powerful thing.
Once you discover that, like,just like me with Meet the Challenge,
I know I have to structure
(16:51):
my work is a series of challengesnow you know, I wrote a book last summer.
I wrote a book that was twiceas long as any book I've ever written
in about a third of the timeI've ever taken.
And part of that was,
you know, the reason I was able to do thatis because I said,
I know I need to write this many wordsevery single day for this many weeks
and take a day off a week,which I did in order to finish this book.
And it felt like a challengeuntil I was able to stay engaged
(17:13):
and motivated because I was, you know,I had that challenge in front of me.
That's what we really need.
So speakingjust completely hypothetically,
if someone was, you know,Explorer is their number one motivator,
what would they doif they were trying to write a book
and couldn't seem to make themselvessit down and work on it?
You know, that one of the best
(17:35):
things you're going to bring to thatprocess is going to be your curiosity.
You're asking a lot of questions.
You'rereally getting into all the various areas
around a particular topicthat something is really important
when you're writing a bookbecause you want to do great research,
and I'm sure that you probably have had noproblem doing the research for the book.
The challenge probably for youis then taking that research
(17:57):
and deciding onwhat is the most important research
and then actually doing the workof writing that book.
Because you probably
the moment you start writing think, Oh,that makes me think of ten more questions.
I should go explore a bunchof other things I should do, right?
So what I would encourage you to do,so explore, develop them, be central,
are your three top motivatorsaccording to your assessment, right?
(18:21):
So develop is really interestingbecause develop is really about
developing concepts,developing ideas, developing people.
Often what I would encourage you to dois to focus in on one specific
topic, area, one chapter and develop itlike you're developing a person.
Really put a lot of effort and interestinto developing that into something
(18:42):
that is in it of itself
uniquely valuable and staywithin the confines of that chapter.
Before you move on to another ideaor another topic, I'm very different.
I write books in the inside out
one section at a timebecause of the way I'm motivated.
So I might write a little bit of Chaptersix today.
A little bit in chapter two tomorrow.
A little bit Chapter nine the next day.
That's kind of the way that I'm wiredfor somebody like you.
(19:04):
I would say focus on one idea at a time.
Stay on track, have a target,a specific target
for that, and make certain that you are
make certain that youare putting a lot of your voice into it.
I a lot of I a lot of your perspective,a lot of your unique
input because of that
be central thing, don't write abstractly,don't write in theory, but make sure it's
(19:27):
you have a point of viewthat's being expressed in the midst of it.
I think that will keep you on track farbetter than the way
a lot of people try to write books, whichis more abstractly, sort of in layers.
I think you just focusing on one topicand one chapter at a time
would probablybe the best approach for you.
I love to I mean, I ask that just sort oflike a little bit selfishly, not like I.
(19:50):
But I think that that really demonstrates
the underlying issue with peopletrying to get people to an age of.
Associations because they're tryingto be everything to everybody
but with one set of content.
Whereas really you needto kind of see what people are doing,
what they're acting on,and that kind of gives you.
I talk about digital body languagebecause I think that looking
(20:13):
at what people open,what they click on, what they get involved
in, probably more than anythingthey will ever tell you
and more than they probably a lot of timeseven realize about themselves.
And so that looking at thatcan give you an idea what their motivators
are and allow you to give that personthe path that they need to succeed,
(20:33):
which I love about associations and datawhen it's used for good.
Yeah.
And I think part of ittoo is making sure that you're
not just writing things or creatingcontent based upon your motivation.
That's one of the mistakes we tend to dois, is
think that everybody else isgenerally motivated the same way we are.
So for me, I like one of the thingsI've learned with my podcast,
(20:54):
which I've been podcastingsince 2005, the podcast
I like to issue challenges to peoplebecause that's what motivates me.
But some people are like,Why are you preaching at me all the time?
Why are you always like saying,Do this, do that, hey, go do this thing?
I'm like, you know, that's right.
I'm basically pretending as if everybody'smotivated the same way I am, right?
(21:14):
And I can't do that.
It's exhausting to some people.
And so for some people,like people who are driven to explore,
I just need to leave an openended question.
Hey, here's a topicyou might want to go look at.
What do you think about this?
What would what would you doif you were in this position?
That's a very different thing to dothan to say go out and spend 20 minutes
taking a walk and asking these questionsand then report back your answers.
(21:37):
That's that's a challenge. Great.
But I have to be careful about.
So I think we're creating contentfor potential association members
or for association members.
Just be thinking about,okay, I'm writing this
through the lens of my motivationor am I keeping
staying open to the idea that other peopleare differently motivated?
What are three thingsthat marketers really need
to be doing to succeed in 2022?
(21:59):
And they talked about one.
Yeah, I think number one is make surethat you are approaching your marketing
through an empathetic lens,so don't just write as if it's you.
Number two,I think authenticity of the book
called Louder than Wordsthat really covered five key areas.
I'll just kind of very quicklycover them authenticity,
(22:19):
make sure you're putting skin in the game,right?
People can smell it outif you're not being authentic.
Authentic doesn't mean transparency.It means you're putting skin in the game.
People need to see that it really costsyou something that you're really
you really care about what you're doing.
So make sure that is authentic,that you show
that you have skin in the game,make sure it's unique,
make sure that you have some uniquepositioning .
(22:40):
You're saying things differently,make sure it's precise.
A lot of people market with a lot of fogand a lot of like buzzwords
and know be precise.
Be very precisebecause precision forces a decision.
I've never said that before, but it rhymeslike a precision forces decision.
Make sure that you're
speaking with empathy, as we talked about,and then pay attention to timing.
(23:01):
Right.
Like right now,there's a lot still a lot of uncertainty.
We're coming out of a pandemic.
A lot of people are still sort of in this
wait and see modebecause we really don't know.
So just make sure that you're payingattention to the timing of your messaging.
Make sure that it's appropriatelytimed for the circumstances.
Thank you againso much for your time today.
(23:21):
I said four bucks.
I forgot. Louder than words. I'm so sorry.
Oh, no problem.
Now it's six anyway.
So I go. I go quickly. So. Yeah, yeah.
But I'm going to emailyou and ask you about the book.
You just do.
I know that people can find you at ToddHenry home?
I highly recommend the books
and I also highly recommend subscribingto the Accidental Creative Podcast.
(23:44):
It is my number one.
Go to and thank you
for all the wisdom that you have given methrough that through the years.
So thank you again for your timetoday. Really appreciate it.
Thank you.
And thanks everybody else for joining us.
Don't forget to subscribeto the member engagement
through Apple, Google, Amazon, Spotify.
Wherever you listen to podcasts,
you can also write to my weekly
(24:05):
newsletter associationMarketing Poser or AMP,
and you can get that linkin the episode notes. Thanks.
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