Delve into the creative world of Thomas Perry, the bestselling author behind 31 novels, including the "Jane Whitefield" series and "The Old Man," which inspired the hit TV show starring Jeff Bridges and John Lithgow. Perry shares intriguing insights into his writing process, the importance of originality, and the challenge of keeping his stories fresh and engaging.
We explore the genesis of "The Old Man" and its adaptation into a television series, highlighting Perry's experiences with the cast and crew. Perry also reflects on his transition from TV writing to novel writing, offering valuable advice for aspiring authors navigating today's complex publishing landscape.
Don't miss this exclusive look at Perry's latest project, "Pro Bono," where a teenager uncovers his stepfather's deceitful schemes, setting the stage for a thrilling narrative about justice and retribution. Tune in for an enlightening conversation filled with storytelling wisdom and inspiration.
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- Host, Nick Standlea: @NickStandlea - Guest, Thomas Perry: www.thomasperryauthor.com
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Ask questions. Don’t accept the status quo. Be curious.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Can you tell us what the premise is or just a teaser about it?
There is a teenager whose mother is married to a con man. She doesn't know it.
He figures it out. Thomas Perry is the bestselling author of 31 novels.
His book, The Old Man, inspired a television show starring Jeff Bridges and John Lithgow.
(00:22):
In a sense, it's kind of irresponsible, you know, telling lies for a living.
They're good lies, though, right? Right. As viewers, as readers,
as audience members of any kind, we want to be emotionally manipulated by someone we can trust.
When we die, if anybody remembers our existence at all or thinks about our books,
(00:43):
what they will remember is.
Music.
I wanted to ask about The Old Man because that was how I discovered your books
and the second season is coming out. So I thought that would be a nice place to start.
What was the genesis of that book and that character?
(01:05):
You know, each time that I start a book or, you know, basically want to tell a story.
It's, I don't want to repeat myself.
You know, I'm one of the people that believes that, you know, when we die,
if anybody remembers our existence at all or thinks at all about our books,
(01:26):
what they will remember is that part of our work that never would have existed
if you hadn't written it.
You know, in other words, it's original. Whatever it is that's original about
your work is going to be the only part that anybody remembers.
And, you know, essentially, that's a kind of story I hadn't told before. You know, I really...
(01:55):
I usually keep everything sort of in this country first place.
You know, most of it's local entirely.
But this is something that's sort of been on my mind for, I don't know,
maybe 40 years or 50 years.
You know, it's really about sort of the way we treat the people who protect us from harm.
(02:15):
You know, 22 million American veterans who are alive today.
You know, essentially what happens to them afterwards. words and
you know what are their lives like and so on and so
i decided to kind of write about an extreme case
which is always the most fun to read about so yes yes it is with so many books
(02:39):
in that suspense thriller genre there has to be a temptation sometimes when you're writing to
fall back on an old trick, right?
A way that a character escapes a certain situation or solved a certain problem.
And I'm just curious what that process is like for you with all this experience,
(03:03):
all these successful books.
How do you force yourself to keep solving things in new ways and keep it so fresh and original?
Well, I mean, it's like having a conversation with somebody.
You know, in a way, what we do when we meet each other in the world is this,
you know, each of us essentially tells a story about who we are.
(03:27):
You know, I tell you a story and then, you know, when that's over, you tell me your story.
And, you know, in a way, that's sort of what we do. That's that's what communication
is. And I think that, well, after a while, you get to the point where you're
just kind of addicted to telling stories.
(03:49):
And in this case, you know, I like to surprise.
By now, I have an audience that has read a few of my books.
And some people have actually, I can't even believe it, read all of them.
But, you know, I kind of feel as though I have an obligation to them.
(04:11):
I'm sitting down and I'm saying, I'm going to tell you a story.
The only thing that I can guarantee about it is that you won't have heard it before.
And that's what makes you want to look for new ways of doing things.
Or, you know, also there's a sort of wish to do better.
You know, each time, you know, it's funny, like with sunsets,
(04:35):
I've noticed that I've had to describe sunsets a number of times in books with
sometimes 10 years apart or 12 years apart or something like that.
And each time I notice something different about sunsets, I try to put it in there.
You know in the book yeah that's
(04:56):
part of what's fun like you know we're supposed to be having fun you know with
these these books they're not they're not science right right you know and i
think that comes right i think that comes across in your writing the there there is,
an element of fun to it right they're fun to read and i imagine it sounds like
(05:20):
you're having fun when you're writing that. I don't know.
Now tell me about the experience. I mean, speaking of fun.
So you, what was the, how much time passed between releasing the old man and
then getting a call that someone was interested in adapting it?
I think it was about two years before, you know, between having it come out.
(05:49):
And, you know, it takes a while for these things to kind of get around and people,
you know, somebody reads it and then takes it to their boss and then somebody, that kind of thing.
This was an interesting situation because there were several production companies
and people that had some interest in optioning the book for,
(06:13):
you know, television or movies or something.
And I had some telephone conversations with the people that were doing that.
And one of the people was Warren Littlefield.
And so I listened to some other people.
And then I said, well, you know, next I'll hear from, you know, Warren Littlefield.
(06:37):
And I told my agent. And, you know, he called up.
And I have to explain who Warren Littlefield is. Warren Littlefield,
when I was writing television, was the head of NBC.
And the show that I was working on with my wife, which was always my writing
(06:58):
partner in television, was on CBS.
And he was just going into that period of what used to be called must-see TV.
And Warren was essentially, I don't know, one of the most powerful and most,
I don't know, astute people in the television world at that time.
(07:20):
And so he called up and he was on on a phone and he you know he said well you
know i'm in i'm in toronto and you know i just ran into say margaret elwood
you know and she was down the street and i was anyway and he was you know sort
of telling me what his day was like and stuff and you know.
(07:41):
Everything that he's ever done i i've liked you know i've liked the fargo television series series.
I'd like the hand, the hand-made television series, you know, lots and lots of things.
So, you know, essentially after he was running this huge network,
he has since then been, you know, a producer and his company consists of about four people, you know,
(08:05):
and he manages to find people that he wants to work with and to find material
that he wants to present.
And, you know, The fact that he was interested at all was a big,
big thing for me. I really felt, you know, I was saying, go at that.
That's it. Good luck. Yeah. Right. Work your magic.
(08:28):
Right. Whatever you're going to say, yes.
Right. You know, and then he did.
But the problem, of course, was that the world slowed down right at that point.
You know, they had, they were sort of in the process of doing things like,
oh, casting and, and working on, you know, various parts of it.
(08:51):
And they had, they had hired writers and, and so on.
And it was, it was really getting going when, when COVID hit and things sort
of stopped for a couple of years.
You know so it was by the
time anything happened that actually that this
(09:12):
show was on the air it had been five years since the
book had been published okay so
you know but i mean they did everything oh yeah i was gonna say what's that
feel like when you're one of your heroes calls you and says i love your book
i want to turn it into a tv show and it's someone that you know and respect so much?
(09:37):
What feelings were running through you at that moment? Well,
I didn't know him, but I did.
You know, I was just happy. I mean, what happens, you know, I have to sort of
give a cynical background to all of this.
Okay. The first time anybody, you know, was interested in an optioning book
(09:58):
for a movie, a book of mine, it was 1982.
And, you know, what happens is, you know, they start out with some, you know, I love it.
I love it. I love it. Here's what we do to fix it.
So they go on and basically they go through the whole process.
(10:22):
And what I actually thought when I first had my first novel, Butcher's Boy,
was optioned, I thought, okay, well, maybe what's it going to be like three
months, four months, and it'll be in movie theaters or whatever.
And it just doesn't it work that way what happens is you
know you have options for a period of
(10:45):
a year or a year and a half and then gets
renewed or whatever or doesn't and meanwhile
this producer is going around and trying to get you know funding the you know
distribution all kinds of things that that are difficult in a way and it you
know i finally came to learn that the way a movie gets made is or a television
(11:07):
show it's probably even harder,
is that about five people have to spend a whole year or more without ever saying
anything stupid in a meeting.
Because once they're there, they kind of throw you out, you know,
and that project is dead.
(11:28):
So, you know, it's gone for a really long time, you know, this was happening.
And also, they have a kind of a situation in which.
The enthusiasm for this book is gone, you know, whenever it is,
whenever the book is that you just had option.
And then a couple of years later, somebody else reads it and discovers it.
(11:51):
And, you know, all of a sudden these waves of bogus enthusiasm wash over you
again, you know, it happens.
And this has been going on for me for over 40 years and nothing ever would get made.
You know, it would just be option. And, you know, then I'd go through the whole
option process and so on.
(12:12):
And the next book would come out and that would be optioned by somebody else.
And that would, you know, there's always kind of over, I was turning over all the time.
And, but this is the first time that it was successfully done.
And I really, I really loved it because, you know, I mean, I,
I had written television years ago with my wife, as I said, and,
(12:33):
you know, I knew what was going to happen. And that was that they were,
number one, going to make changes. They had to.
You know, a television show is not a book.
And its purpose is not to do an audiovisual version of your novel.
The purpose is to get a hold of a lot of different things, including art directors
(12:58):
and, you know, everything. Right.
About 200 people and so on. And you put all that together like you're making an army or something.
And the purpose is to get a good television show.
And most of the time people watch something like that and they say, there's a book?
(13:23):
You know, they don't know about the book. Right.
I learned that very early on when I happened to walk up to a major,
an actor who was in a movie that was based on a book a person I knew,
a friend of mine, had written.
And I said, is the movie going to be a lot like the book? And he said, this book.
(13:50):
Right, and he's starring in it. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
So it was years and years ago, but I think a lot of, a lot of times it's still true.
Yeah. As I mentioned, I did find the show first, then discovered that it was
based on a book from some Googling and, and I thought, Oh, I want to read the source material.
(14:11):
Cause I found that that's really interesting. Cause they're always,
yeah, they're a little different or a lot different. And this was one of those
great instances where I really enjoyed the book. I really enjoyed the show.
And they were and for different reasons, because they do diverge quite a bit.
What's that experience like for you to see someone reimagine these characters
(14:34):
that that came from your mind?
It's a pleasure, actually. You know, for me, it was all pleasant.
It was all, you know, number one, I had essentially told the story I wanted
to tell, and I would not have, under any circumstances, made any kind of a change to it.
But somebody else handing, you know, handing it over, as it turned out,
(14:59):
to John Steinberg, who, you know, was sort of the head writer. Right.
And one of the executive producers, it was an interesting experience.
It's like, you know, you've got these characters, you know what this is like,
you know what we're talking about here, and, you know, you tell the best story that you can with that.
(15:21):
And, you know, you did. They did. They told a really good story.
It just wasn't the same story, really.
And so we had this sort of strange experience,
my wife and me, sitting there watching the the
show week by week and knowing
the characters and being really surprised
by secrets about them that we didn't know
(15:43):
or doing something that
we didn't expect them to do because they don't do it in
the book and it was that was fun it was you know
and i expect that you know season two has got to
be probably twice as fun because
we you know we have no idea at
this point where it's going so right a
(16:03):
pleasure you know it's it's one
of those things where you know your ego
can deprive you of a hell of a lot of fun yeah you worry you're sort of possessive
of you know no this is the you know the only version that can be true and you
know you can't you can't fool with my work instead it was really a pleasure to see what they Right.
(16:29):
Well, it's got to be a great feeling when you see your characters doing something
different, making different decisions, but it's still tracks with what that character would do.
It might be a different decision than they made in the book,
but it's still true to that character.
Because, yeah, I mean, having, you know, yeah, having read and watched both of them.
(16:54):
Go ahead. Sorry, we've got a little audio lag. Oh, sorry.
You know, when I got the, well, I said I had the experience of being on sets
before, you know, when shooting was being done.
And I accepted an invitation to, you know, show up on the set and see both,
(17:21):
you know, days when let's go
was working and when bridges was working
so there were two there were different days because you
know part of the way the book works
and the and the series works is that for a really long time they're sort of
one of them's looking for the other and they don't come together so you have
(17:44):
these these things where you know these two people are in the same series series
And they don't, you know,
the actors don't meet until they finally have a scene together.
So anyway, it came in two different days. And, you know, I watched John Lithgow
do a, like a six page scene, you know, pretty much continuously by himself,
(18:10):
you know, while he was supposedly talking to someone else.
And then another day I went to when Bridges was working and it was one of his
early, you know, first scenes.
And it was exactly like that particular one is, you know, the beginning he's
with his dogs and he's in the house in Vermont and.
(18:37):
You know, the person comes to kill him, you know, and all of that was exactly alike.
And I thought, oh, my God, what perfect casting.
And watching these guys work was a revelation. I mean, they were so good.
And I was so pleased just to watch.
(18:58):
Well, in fact, even things that had nothing to do with the acting or anything
was just the direction and art work made the house exactly the way I imagined it.
You know, the interior of the house, you know, it was a set.
And, you know, I thought, my God, this is, you know, I never imagined that this
(19:23):
was going to be so good and so close to what I do.
Do but i you know watching how hard they worked and so on and
then later on i realized that
that the week that i went to
see each of them they had each
of them a best-selling book on the on the new
(19:43):
york times bestseller list you know as
an amateur photographer and you know he's taken a lot of pictures and you know
around sets and things like that and that book was a bestseller And John Lethko
had written a short parody of candidate Trump.
(20:04):
It was. Oh, OK.
But that was on the bestseller list. You know, so of the three of us,
they were they were the ones that had the bestsellers. Right.
I mean, that is that is. So you mentioned you were a TV writer.
(20:27):
How did you transition out of that into book writing?
Or were they both going on simultaneously?
I mean, what was that? What was that writing career trajectory look like?
Oh, I started out as a person writing books.
But then after I had a couple of books out, my wife and I were both working at USC.
(20:50):
And I actually, I had a, there was about, I don't know, four faculty members in my office at the time.
And it was a sort of informal meeting, setting up for the next meeting about something else.
And the phone rings and it's Jim chorus, who was at that time,
uh, uh, and an executive at universal.
(21:14):
And he said, you know, I just read a couple of your books and,
you know, I think you could write television and, you know, would you like to like to do it? You know?
And then I said, gee, I'm sorry. You know, I'm really busy in this meeting right now.
And I, and also I don't know on how to do that. I've never even seen a script. So...
You know, thanks, but no, thanks. Yeah.
(21:37):
And he said, well, no, you don't have to quit your job or anything,
you know, right away or whatever.
And just, but, you know, think about it, ask people, you know,
you know what they think.
And, and I'll call you, I think it was, you know, next day or a couple of days, you know?
And so I did my method of, of thinking, which is to walk down the hall I'll
(22:03):
go to my wife's office and say, what do you think?
We talked about it and we thought, you know, and she said, you know,
this is, this sounds like an interesting idea and you're bored in this job.
You know, try it. And if you run into trouble, I'll help you.
You know, and in her case, you know, she had a PhD in English also,
(22:26):
but she, you know, had seen scripts and things. You know, her father was a comedy
writer for, you know, 40 or so years, maybe longer.
And, you know, so she, it wasn't as alien to her as it was to me.
And so, you know, and I did accept a script assignment and I did start working
(22:48):
on it and did run into trouble and she did help me.
So after that, we were writing partners in television for 11 years.
And what shows did you guys work on.
Well, most of the time, we started on Simon and Simon and we stayed essentially
Simon and Simon was, I don't know if you remember that, you know, but it was a show on CBS.
(23:14):
Two brothers who are essentially two aspects of one personality.
You know, one is kind of laid back and casual and stuff.
Of and the other one is kind of a future lawyer
kind of guy you know and that was
(23:36):
you know it was a comic adventure kind
of show and it was fun and and it lasted for
quite a while and so we
were on that for i don't know a couple
of years three years maybe and and then
the people who were our bosses who were originally who originally hired us left
(23:58):
and they went to disney and so we worked another year at universal at the on
that show and they said you know when you please come.
Disney and work with us you know so we did and we you know that was we worked
(24:19):
on a couple of of different shows.
One was called Sidekicks. That was the first one.
And that was about a police officer whose son is.
A karate champion so there was there was ernie reyes jr who later became a a ninja turtle,
(24:44):
okay but but at that at this time it was it was kind of a limited plot because
what it was was obviously you know you have this great tough cop and he gets
into these situations where,
he's with you know he picks up earning at school his son
and you know they suddenly see that
somebody's being robbed and and the cop says
(25:07):
you know stay in the car ernie and he
goes to take care of it or he gets hit over the head or
something and ernie comes and beats the
hell out of the bad guys and and uh you know he was a very he was a real karate
you know he actually was the national karate champion for a you know for his
age and his father was in senior national national karate champ that ernie rex
(25:31):
senior it was you know so it was it was interesting.
See people breaking a lot of boards and
things yeah you know anyway
it was fun but you know after that we worked on a show that was called the oldest
rookie it was called sorbino and he was you know basically the plot was that
(25:52):
he had been a police officer who had worked his way up through the sort of schmoozing
part of the police department,
the part where, you know, you're going around and kind of, you know,
being in parties and, and talking to lobbyists and, you know, things like that.
He spent more time basically wearing a tuxedo than a, than a police uniform.
(26:17):
And then his old partner from when he was a rookie is killed in the line of duty.
And he decides he wants to be a police officer again
a street cop and he goes back to
to doing we wrote that for a year and
that was that was kind of fun too because partly because listening
(26:37):
you know paul servino was was so experienced and
so good at what he did that he
would explain things to you when you're going over a script
with him you know what you could learn from he was really good so great
actor great actor and then
how did you find your way back to just writing
(26:58):
books oh i never stopped i always
okay always always what uh-huh that was just
okay you know they were they were a little slower i think
you know and for the last i don't know 20 years or so i've been doing one a
year but i did you know i couldn't keep up that pace at the time even when I
was writing television because you know when you're on a series you know once that ship sails,
(27:25):
you've got to have you know an hour of film ready every week no matter what you know right so.
And so we were, we were busy. Now we've had a number of, of nonfiction authors
on podcasts before, and that has led to, I've just noticed from the comments and whatnot,
(27:47):
a number of aspiring writers taking an interest in, in authors discussing their
books and their process.
And one question I think that they would like to know the answer to.
So for a aspiring writer today, right, the process has completely changed with
(28:08):
all these self-published books.
And my limited understanding of it is that the publishing industry is shrinking a bit.
Do you have any advice, any thoughts for those new writers that want to get
their book out there and reach more people?
How do they, how do they tackle this in this new landscape of, of publishing?
(28:34):
Well, you know, it is, it is tricky in a way because, you know,
you're in a situation when you're publishing or, you know, writing to live,
you know, you, you usually start from a place where I started,
which is, you know, I wrote for fun and I had a lot of fun and somebody,
I considered myself satisfied and lucky.
(28:54):
And then at a certain point, I finally wrote something I thought maybe somebody
who wasn't related to me by blood or marriage might actually want to read.
And I started trying to sell it, you know.
But what I realized pretty early on is that the very best thing you can have is an agent.
(29:16):
You know, if you're getting an agent, it's harder than getting something published
today, you know, which is kind of a tricky situation.
But I mean, it was, that was, was the big lucky break in a way was getting,
it was what I did was I got the,
(29:37):
there's a little balloon pamphlet that they used to produce at the writer of
the authors guild in New York.
And it had a list of the names and addresses and so on of the agents that sort
of agreed to, you know, be honest and,
you know, take a limited amount of money out of your royalties and so on.
(30:03):
It was like, I think, 10% at the time, but I'm sure it's been raised to like 15.
But anyway, so what I did was I wrote a letter and a synopsis of the book that
I was trying to sell. And I sent it to...
A bunch of agents, you know, and fortunately, as I went down the list,
(30:23):
the one that answered first was a guy named, believe it or not, Lurton Blessing Game.
I wish I had made that name up, but it was his name.
That's an amazing name. Yeah, it is.
And, you know, he wrote to me and he said, you know, in those days,
you didn't make a long distance phone call idly.
(30:44):
So, you know, You know, you would communicate by mail.
And, you know, he said, the first question was, who are you?
And so I sent him a letter, you know, answering, you know, basically,
I am nobody is what I explained.
(31:05):
And he said, well, send me the book and I'll read it.
And then about two weeks later he wrote back to me and he said i like it i'll
find a publisher and he did which was yeah you know a lady named suzanne kirk
at uh scribners and she was,
(31:27):
a great editor of people's work in in the field of and all sort of mysteries
and thrillers she was She was terrific.
And, you know, so it all kind of went from there.
You know, the first book won an Edgar, so it gave me a chance to sort of be
(31:51):
taken seriously. Right.
I've been very lucky in these, in these cases, because, you know,
one of the things that, you know, it has, you, you do this stuff is that there
are thousands of people who,
Who are writing good books out there, you know, and really having a terrible
(32:15):
time trying to get anybody to take a look at them.
I don't, I mean, anybody with, with power to do anything about it and,
you know, and it's, it's, it's tough.
And, and you, you know, you feel all kinds of frustration and you,
particularly when you see a book that's terrible, that, you know,
is climbing a seller list.
(32:37):
You know everybody has that experience of you know looking at something and
going oh my god what what happened here what why is the universe tilted like this,
but you know you just have to you know persevere and try and you know enjoy the ride to the extent
that you can have been out well and it sounds like you were also lucky in that you,
(33:06):
married the right person because it sounds i'm getting
the sense that your wife is very important to your writing and
thinking process and i wanted to ask about that
how big of a role does she play in making decisions
about your books none of
that she is a novelist she's a
very golden novelist and you know
(33:28):
she's got i believe seven books now and then
you know some of them are funny some of them are you know
tragic you know tragic aspects all kinds of things she's a terrific writer and
always was you know and she was a poet before that we've been married for 44
years in august and were together for a while before that.
(33:53):
So, you know, she's been around a while and has been...
Absolutely important to one aspect of this.
We don't read each other's work until we're ready. Okay, until it's done.
So she reads first drafts of my books.
(34:14):
And, you know, she's the very first reader, first reader, whatever.
And she is merciless. She's absolutely merciless.
You know will and she
does the the thing which is the very hardest that you
can do with a friend or a relative or whatever and that is she tells the truth
(34:34):
if something is awful she tells you it's awful you know and if yeah you know
and it's it's it's been just incredibly good for me because Because you really do,
you get used to an idea and you think you've got it all worked out.
(34:55):
But it's really important to have somebody who, a truth teller that you know.
And in her case, she's fortunately, she's brilliant. So that really helps.
That helps a lot. And the room that I'm sitting in right now is where we both write every day.
(35:18):
I have a desk here and she has a desk down there a ways.
And, you know, we both sit here and refuse to answer the phone. Right.
Well, since you mentioned the room, what is that daily process look like?
Well, first, let's start with how many days a year do you write?
(35:43):
I mean, do you write every day? Are there breaks in there between books?
And then how many hours per day typically are you at the desk writing?
It has changed over the years.
I've been at this a long time, and I probably don't have the stamina that I used to.
And I know my eyes don't take 12-hour writing things that sometimes used to happen.
(36:08):
But we both essentially write every day, just a little bit.
Maybe and maybe a lot it depends
you know you're when you're doing this you you sometimes have these situations
where if you solve one thing or write some portion that that works well enough
(36:28):
you feel as though you've actually accomplished a day's work and there are other days when.
You will get on the roll and you realize that you're you know i write my first
drafts by hand And so, you know, sometimes I'll have, you know, nine, 10, 12 pages,
you know, but that's, that doesn't happen very often. They usually,
(36:53):
you know, at certain points it does.
And, you know, she does things at her pace and it's, well,
we work every day, but what that does is it frees our lives entirely.
In other words, if there's a day or a week or something that we can't work or
(37:15):
are doing something else or,
you know, children want to come over and whatever happens,
you know, we're completely free. I mean, we don't.
We don't put in necessarily a full day every day, but, you know,
(37:36):
I would say we probably were, I don't know, an average working day is like five hours.
Sure. How that can be working. It can be good. I don't know.
It's one of those things where Gertrude Stein wrote something at one point that said,
she said that, you know, sometimes you sit and stare at a blank page for eight
(37:59):
hours and then write something for 15 minutes,
you know, because you finally figured it out or whatever. And, you know, it's.
So there are days like that. I think there are. Yeah. Yeah, I mean,
I don't have the patience to sit for eight hours anymore and do that.
But, you know, I get up and walk around and stuff. And sometimes,
you know, something occurs to you and sometimes it doesn't.
(38:24):
But, you know, the back of me, you know, what Norman Mailer,
I don't know why all these people are coming back into my head right now.
But at one point he said that when you plan that, you know, tomorrow you're going to write,
your subconscious mind begins to prepare the materials, you know, which is true.
(38:48):
You know, you sort of wake up already ready to do business.
Well, you know, that's an interesting thought. Scott, is there is there a process
there for you where you are trying to prepare like to get your subconscious active?
Are you thinking about characters before you fall asleep and then in the morning
you pop up with new ideas?
(39:10):
I mean, is there anything you're doing that's for the writing,
but it's not during the writing process?
Well, I think, you know, at a certain point when you've been doing it for a really long time.
You're always in that mode and you're, you know, everything you read,
everything you see, every conversation that you have, it's sometimes even overheard,
(39:31):
you know, things that you,
you know, I'm sure writers are all even just terrible eavesdroppers.
And, you know, I remember at one point I was in a, I was doing a book tour and
I was in a big hotel and there was this group group of people,
like a table for 12, right nearby,
which is, you know, and then there was a young woman who had apparently just
(39:56):
graduated from medical school, but she had been a pageant quitting type person.
She was going through all this stuff.
And she said, you know, I could probably do surgery every day in a pageant gown.
(40:18):
I would have enough of them I could still do it and I thought that always stuck
with me the image of this person,
in a gown and a mask doing surgery,
anyway did you ever use that image?
(40:39):
No it's just one of those things that sticks with you In other words,
you're always engaged in each world when you're writing.
I mean, you know, it's...
It's just another way of storing your thoughts and observations and,
(41:02):
you know, the images that you get coming into your, you know, it's fun.
You know, it's really a pleasant way to live, you know, because it's,
in a sense, it's kind of irresponsible, you know, telling lies for a living.
Yeah, they're good lies, though, right? I mean, I think with storytelling, it's funny.
(41:24):
I mean, we as as viewers, as readers, as audience members of any kind,
we want to be emotionally manipulated by someone we can trust in a good way.
Yeah, because the people that are fun to to read are people who are pretty much like us.
(41:46):
And and and you know we have the same
reaction like when i read somebody else's book i i
i'm absolutely like any other reader
i mean i'm i'm really interested i
you know i sometimes get worried about the characters you know
i think oh my god you know i hope
that's hope they get through this um you know it's it's really a i think just
(42:14):
a fundamental human thing you know We communicate how it feels and what things
we admire and what things we detest and so on.
There's a certain agreement on all of that.
Stephen King expressed something similar as a reader.
He said, well, when I'm not writing, I spend a lot of my downtime reading because
(42:37):
I just love stories. And he said, I can't imagine someone wanting to be a writer
that doesn't just love to ingest stories.
Who are some of your favorite writers?
Writers movies tv shows just anything
that comes to mind right now what's what's gotten you excited recently i sometimes
(43:00):
get requests from you know editors to yeah read whoever the latest person is
that they're pushing and maybe give them a blurb or whatever and you know i always have a few that
are, you know, really favorites.
And, you know, right now, actually, just recently, I read a book by, what's his name?
(43:26):
Oh, Robert Rothstein, who wrote a book, which came out in June called The Out-of-Town Lawyer.
I really admired that and also learned a lot of law stuff,
which is always fun because it was about it actually is about a complicated
court case and in which somebody is being prosecuted for murder essentially.
(43:53):
Also there was a new book which I read this year called Blood Rubies by Meilan Doquan,
which you know i got kind of excited about because it was so strange and interesting,
a a young woman whose
(44:14):
family is a jewel family
you know it was their you know expert the jewelers and
so and it becomes a jewel and you know
has gets herself into some terrible trouble
doing that and you know it's very
fast paced and a lot of most of it takes takes place in thailand which near
(44:36):
us is pretty fun because i didn't know very much about thailand but anyway you
know i read a lot of things like that that excite me there there's i don't know
some interesting things going on.
What have I liked in movies? Things.
(44:58):
Offhand, I can't think of.
Can't think of any favorites at the moment, but, you know, it's.
Every once in a while, there'll be something that I really love.
But at the moment, there are certain things about the series and the bear that's on FX, Hulu.
(45:19):
It's funny you mentioned that because I was just going to say,
if you haven't seen The Bear, it's such a unique show.
And it feels more like a book than most TV shows do.
I don't know how else to describe it. obviously it's very rich
visually so it's different than a book but it's it's
(45:40):
a different kind of writing for that show yeah they're doing
something special yeah it's interesting and different
and you know i can't say
i've liked all of it i have liked some of it a
lot you know and there's particular particular favorite
characters and things but you know
i also think that one of of the things that we that i
(46:01):
miss in the current situations that you
know almost everything is now seven or eight episodes you know while i was writing
for television our first year we we got had 26 episodes and cigarettes you know
so it was kind of a different different world and then you You have to forget about it for,
(46:23):
you know, what is it, like, I don't know, 40 weeks before you get to see the next year's.
Right. So that's kind of frustrating, but, you know, that's good.
But, you know, I also, you know, as I said, I do, you know, I really liked from,
you know, the Fargo episodes that I've seen, you know, the different years and
(46:48):
so on, you know, things like that.
Those seem to me to be the high point of what i
i uh see lately but yeah
yeah another excellent show for sure a
hero is is out now are are
you at liberty to say what you are currently
(47:08):
working on or what might be in the in the pipeline i finished finished the and
i think i'm through all the others else on the next book which is going to be
called pro bono and that will be out in,
(47:28):
january probably you know that's there was a.
And after the last, I don't know, the last that I spoke with the editors,
that seemed like it was done and they were sending it off for artwork.
So I guess that's a sure thing. Okay.
(47:52):
Once they bothered to do that, once we get through the copy editor.
Yeah. Yeah. If you've got a new book coming out each year, is that how much
of that time is writing it and how much is editing that book or going through
the editing process with all the different people involved?
Well, the people that I've been dealing with for the last few years are very fast.
(48:18):
So even if I kind of miss a deadline, that will work fast enough to make up
for whatever is necessary.
But it always seems to end up in the winter catalog.
Log and i've always you know accused them of you know doing putting my stuff
(48:40):
out in january because they don't want to lose anybody important in a plane crash okay.
Glad to see i don't know yes yeah and pro bono is that that's another standalone
book yeah yeah It's not connected to anything else. Okay. No.
(49:02):
And it's, you know, it's interesting. And it's one of those things that's,
again, it's different, very different from anything else that I've done.
So it's kind of fun to fool around with.
Can you tell us what the premise of Pro Bono is or just a teaser about it? Let's see. Okay.
(49:23):
There is a teenager whose mother is married to a con man.
She doesn't know it. He figures it out.
And just as, you know, having done that, he kind of triggers the process that
was going to happen anyway.
That is that this guy is going to steal all of her money and disappear, right? Right.
(49:48):
But let's say what he learns in this experience will actually make him very good at a future career,
which is to be a lawyer that is able to find and prosecute situations where
someone is stealing money from other people.
(50:10):
Well, you piqued my interest right at the, the T the teenager's mother is married
to a con man. She doesn't know it, but he's figured it out.
It's like, Oh, Oh, what's going to happen next? Yeah. I'm sure it's going to be fantastic.
I am excited to read that one as well. Well, well, thank you.
Thanks. So there'll be one, one sale.
(50:33):
There we go. Yes. We're in single seniors.
Right. Right. I'm just excited for the new book and it's really been a pleasure
talking to you. Great. Pleasure. Thank you.
Okay, everybody. Until next time, ask questions, don't accept the status quo and be curious.
(50:54):
Music.
Can you tell us what the premise is or just a teaser about it?
There is a teenager whose mother is married to a con man. She doesn't know it.
He figures it out. Thomas Perry is the bestselling author of 31 novels.
His book, The Old Man, inspired a television show starring Jeff Bridges and John Lithgow.
(00:22):
In a sense, it's kind of irresponsible, you know, telling lies for a living.
They're good lies, though, right? Right. As viewers, as readers,
as audience members of any kind, we want to be emotionally manipulated by someone we can trust.
When we die, if anybody remembers our existence at all or thinks about our books,
(00:43):
what they will remember is.
Music.
I wanted to ask about The Old Man because that was how I discovered your books
and the second season is coming out. So I thought that would be a nice place to start.
What was the genesis of that book and that character?
(01:05):
You know, each time that I start a book or, you know, basically want to tell a story.
It's, I don't want to repeat myself.
You know, I'm one of the people that believes that, you know, when we die,
if anybody remembers our existence at all or thinks at all about our books,
(01:26):
what they will remember is that part of our work that never would have existed
if you hadn't written it.
You know, in other words, it's original. Whatever it is that's original about
your work is going to be the only part that anybody remembers.
And, you know, essentially, that's a kind of story I hadn't told before. You know, I really...
(01:55):
I usually keep everything sort of in this country first place.
You know, most of it's local entirely.
But this is something that's sort of been on my mind for, I don't know,
maybe 40 years or 50 years.
You know, it's really about sort of the way we treat the people who protect us from harm.
(02:15):
You know, 22 million American veterans who are alive today.
You know, essentially what happens to them afterwards. words and
you know what are their lives like and so on and so
i decided to kind of write about an extreme case
which is always the most fun to read about so yes yes it is with so many books
(02:39):
in that suspense thriller genre there has to be a temptation sometimes when you're writing to
fall back on an old trick, right?
A way that a character escapes a certain situation or solved a certain problem.
And I'm just curious what that process is like for you with all this experience,
(03:03):
all these successful books.
How do you force yourself to keep solving things in new ways and keep it so fresh and original?
Well, I mean, it's like having a conversation with somebody.
You know, in a way, what we do when we meet each other in the world is this,
you know, each of us essentially tells a story about who we are.
(03:27):
You know, I tell you a story and then, you know, when that's over, you tell me your story.
And, you know, in a way, that's sort of what we do. That's that's what communication
is. And I think that, well, after a while, you get to the point where you're
just kind of addicted to telling stories.
(03:49):
And in this case, you know, I like to surprise.
By now, I have an audience that has read a few of my books.
And some people have actually, I can't even believe it, read all of them.
But, you know, I kind of feel as though I have an obligation to them.
(04:11):
I'm sitting down and I'm saying, I'm going to tell you a story.
The only thing that I can guarantee about it is that you won't have heard it before.
And that's what makes you want to look for new ways of doing things.
Or, you know, also there's a sort of wish to do better.
You know, each time, you know, it's funny, like with sunsets,
(04:35):
I've noticed that I've had to describe sunsets a number of times in books with
sometimes 10 years apart or 12 years apart or something like that.
And each time I notice something different about sunsets, I try to put it in there.
You know in the book yeah that's
(04:56):
part of what's fun like you know we're supposed to be having fun you know with
these these books they're not they're not science right right you know and i
think that comes right i think that comes across in your writing the there there is,
an element of fun to it right they're fun to read and i imagine it sounds like
(05:20):
you're having fun when you're writing that. I don't know.
Now tell me about the experience. I mean, speaking of fun.
So you, what was the, how much time passed between releasing the old man and
then getting a call that someone was interested in adapting it?
I think it was about two years before, you know, between having it come out.
(05:49):
And, you know, it takes a while for these things to kind of get around and people,
you know, somebody reads it and then takes it to their boss and then somebody, that kind of thing.
This was an interesting situation because there were several production companies
and people that had some interest in optioning the book for,
(06:13):
you know, television or movies or something.
And I had some telephone conversations with the people that were doing that.
And one of the people was Warren Littlefield.
And so I listened to some other people.
And then I said, well, you know, next I'll hear from, you know, Warren Littlefield.
(06:37):
And I told my agent. And, you know, he called up.
And I have to explain who Warren Littlefield is. Warren Littlefield,
when I was writing television, was the head of NBC.
And the show that I was working on with my wife, which was always my writing
(06:58):
partner in television, was on CBS.
And he was just going into that period of what used to be called must-see TV.
And Warren was essentially, I don't know, one of the most powerful and most,
I don't know, astute people in the television world at that time.
(07:20):
And so he called up and he was on on a phone and he you know he said well you
know i'm in i'm in toronto and you know i just ran into say margaret elwood
you know and she was down the street and i was anyway and he was you know sort
of telling me what his day was like and stuff and you know.
(07:41):
Everything that he's ever done i i've liked you know i've liked the fargo television series series.
I'd like the hand, the hand-made television series, you know, lots and lots of things.
So, you know, essentially after he was running this huge network,
he has since then been, you know, a producer and his company consists of about four people, you know,
(08:05):
and he manages to find people that he wants to work with and to find material
that he wants to present.
And, you know, The fact that he was interested at all was a big,
big thing for me. I really felt, you know, I was saying, go at that.
That's it. Good luck. Yeah. Right. Work your magic.
(08:28):
Right. Whatever you're going to say, yes.
Right. You know, and then he did.
But the problem, of course, was that the world slowed down right at that point.
You know, they had, they were sort of in the process of doing things like,
oh, casting and, and working on, you know, various parts of it.
(08:51):
And they had, they had hired writers and, and so on.
And it was, it was really getting going when, when COVID hit and things sort
of stopped for a couple of years.
You know so it was by the
time anything happened that actually that this
(09:12):
show was on the air it had been five years since the
book had been published okay so
you know but i mean they did everything oh yeah i was gonna say what's that
feel like when you're one of your heroes calls you and says i love your book
i want to turn it into a tv show and it's someone that you know and respect so much?
(09:37):
What feelings were running through you at that moment? Well,
I didn't know him, but I did.
You know, I was just happy. I mean, what happens, you know, I have to sort of
give a cynical background to all of this.
Okay. The first time anybody, you know, was interested in an optioning book
(09:58):
for a movie, a book of mine, it was 1982.
And, you know, what happens is, you know, they start out with some, you know, I love it.
I love it. I love it. Here's what we do to fix it.
So they go on and basically they go through the whole process.
(10:22):
And what I actually thought when I first had my first novel, Butcher's Boy,
was optioned, I thought, okay, well, maybe what's it going to be like three
months, four months, and it'll be in movie theaters or whatever.
And it just doesn't it work that way what happens is you
know you have options for a period of
(10:45):
a year or a year and a half and then gets
renewed or whatever or doesn't and meanwhile
this producer is going around and trying to get you know funding the you know
distribution all kinds of things that that are difficult in a way and it you
know i finally came to learn that the way a movie gets made is or a television
(11:07):
show it's probably even harder,
is that about five people have to spend a whole year or more without ever saying
anything stupid in a meeting.
Because once they're there, they kind of throw you out, you know,
and that project is dead.
(11:28):
So, you know, it's gone for a really long time, you know, this was happening.
And also, they have a kind of a situation in which.
The enthusiasm for this book is gone, you know, whenever it is,
whenever the book is that you just had option.
And then a couple of years later, somebody else reads it and discovers it.
(11:51):
And, you know, all of a sudden these waves of bogus enthusiasm wash over you
again, you know, it happens.
And this has been going on for me for over 40 years and nothing ever would get made.
You know, it would just be option. And, you know, then I'd go through the whole
option process and so on.
(12:12):
And the next book would come out and that would be optioned by somebody else.
And that would, you know, there's always kind of over, I was turning over all the time.
And, but this is the first time that it was successfully done.
And I really, I really loved it because, you know, I mean, I,
I had written television years ago with my wife, as I said, and,
(12:33):
you know, I knew what was going to happen. And that was that they were,
number one, going to make changes. They had to.
You know, a television show is not a book.
And its purpose is not to do an audiovisual version of your novel.
The purpose is to get a hold of a lot of different things, including art directors
(12:58):
and, you know, everything. Right.
About 200 people and so on. And you put all that together like you're making an army or something.
And the purpose is to get a good television show.
And most of the time people watch something like that and they say, there's a book?
(13:23):
You know, they don't know about the book. Right.
I learned that very early on when I happened to walk up to a major,
an actor who was in a movie that was based on a book a person I knew,
a friend of mine, had written.
And I said, is the movie going to be a lot like the book? And he said, this book.
(13:50):
Right, and he's starring in it. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
So it was years and years ago, but I think a lot of, a lot of times it's still true.
Yeah. As I mentioned, I did find the show first, then discovered that it was
based on a book from some Googling and, and I thought, Oh, I want to read the source material.
(14:11):
Cause I found that that's really interesting. Cause they're always,
yeah, they're a little different or a lot different. And this was one of those
great instances where I really enjoyed the book. I really enjoyed the show.
And they were and for different reasons, because they do diverge quite a bit.
What's that experience like for you to see someone reimagine these characters
(14:34):
that that came from your mind?
It's a pleasure, actually. You know, for me, it was all pleasant.
It was all, you know, number one, I had essentially told the story I wanted
to tell, and I would not have, under any circumstances, made any kind of a change to it.
But somebody else handing, you know, handing it over, as it turned out,
(14:59):
to John Steinberg, who, you know, was sort of the head writer. Right.
And one of the executive producers, it was an interesting experience.
It's like, you know, you've got these characters, you know what this is like,
you know what we're talking about here, and, you know, you tell the best story that you can with that.
(15:21):
And, you know, you did. They did. They told a really good story.
It just wasn't the same story, really.
And so we had this sort of strange experience,
my wife and me, sitting there watching the the
show week by week and knowing
the characters and being really surprised
by secrets about them that we didn't know
(15:43):
or doing something that
we didn't expect them to do because they don't do it in
the book and it was that was fun it was you know
and i expect that you know season two has got to
be probably twice as fun because
we you know we have no idea at
this point where it's going so right a
(16:03):
pleasure you know it's it's one
of those things where you know your ego
can deprive you of a hell of a lot of fun yeah you worry you're sort of possessive
of you know no this is the you know the only version that can be true and you
know you can't you can't fool with my work instead it was really a pleasure to see what they Right.
(16:29):
Well, it's got to be a great feeling when you see your characters doing something
different, making different decisions, but it's still tracks with what that character would do.
It might be a different decision than they made in the book,
but it's still true to that character.
Because, yeah, I mean, having, you know, yeah, having read and watched both of them.
(16:54):
Go ahead. Sorry, we've got a little audio lag. Oh, sorry.
You know, when I got the, well, I said I had the experience of being on sets
before, you know, when shooting was being done.
And I accepted an invitation to, you know, show up on the set and see both,
(17:21):
you know, days when let's go
was working and when bridges was working
so there were two there were different days because you
know part of the way the book works
and the and the series works is that for a really long time they're sort of
one of them's looking for the other and they don't come together so you have
(17:44):
these these things where you know these two people are in the same series series
And they don't, you know,
the actors don't meet until they finally have a scene together.
So anyway, it came in two different days. And, you know, I watched John Lithgow
do a, like a six page scene, you know, pretty much continuously by himself,
(18:10):
you know, while he was supposedly talking to someone else.
And then another day I went to when Bridges was working and it was one of his
early, you know, first scenes.
And it was exactly like that particular one is, you know, the beginning he's
with his dogs and he's in the house in Vermont and.
(18:37):
You know, the person comes to kill him, you know, and all of that was exactly alike.
And I thought, oh, my God, what perfect casting.
And watching these guys work was a revelation. I mean, they were so good.
And I was so pleased just to watch.
(18:58):
Well, in fact, even things that had nothing to do with the acting or anything
was just the direction and art work made the house exactly the way I imagined it.
You know, the interior of the house, you know, it was a set.
And, you know, I thought, my God, this is, you know, I never imagined that this
(19:23):
was going to be so good and so close to what I do.
Do but i you know watching how hard they worked and so on and
then later on i realized that
that the week that i went to
see each of them they had each
of them a best-selling book on the on the new
(19:43):
york times bestseller list you know as
an amateur photographer and you know he's taken a lot of pictures and you know
around sets and things like that and that book was a bestseller And John Lethko
had written a short parody of candidate Trump.
(20:04):
It was. Oh, OK.
But that was on the bestseller list. You know, so of the three of us,
they were they were the ones that had the bestsellers. Right.
I mean, that is that is. So you mentioned you were a TV writer.
(20:27):
How did you transition out of that into book writing?
Or were they both going on simultaneously?
I mean, what was that? What was that writing career trajectory look like?
Oh, I started out as a person writing books.
But then after I had a couple of books out, my wife and I were both working at USC.
(20:50):
And I actually, I had a, there was about, I don't know, four faculty members in my office at the time.
And it was a sort of informal meeting, setting up for the next meeting about something else.
And the phone rings and it's Jim chorus, who was at that time,
uh, uh, and an executive at universal.
(21:14):
And he said, you know, I just read a couple of your books and,
you know, I think you could write television and, you know, would you like to like to do it? You know?
And then I said, gee, I'm sorry. You know, I'm really busy in this meeting right now.
And I, and also I don't know on how to do that. I've never even seen a script. So...
You know, thanks, but no, thanks. Yeah.
(21:37):
And he said, well, no, you don't have to quit your job or anything,
you know, right away or whatever.
And just, but, you know, think about it, ask people, you know,
you know what they think.
And, and I'll call you, I think it was, you know, next day or a couple of days, you know?
And so I did my method of, of thinking, which is to walk down the hall I'll
(22:03):
go to my wife's office and say, what do you think?
We talked about it and we thought, you know, and she said, you know,
this is, this sounds like an interesting idea and you're bored in this job.
You know, try it. And if you run into trouble, I'll help you.
You know, and in her case, you know, she had a PhD in English also,
(22:26):
but she, you know, had seen scripts and things. You know, her father was a comedy
writer for, you know, 40 or so years, maybe longer.
And, you know, so she, it wasn't as alien to her as it was to me.
And so, you know, and I did accept a script assignment and I did start working
(22:48):
on it and did run into trouble and she did help me.
So after that, we were writing partners in television for 11 years.
And what shows did you guys work on.
Well, most of the time, we started on Simon and Simon and we stayed essentially
Simon and Simon was, I don't know if you remember that, you know, but it was a show on CBS.
(23:14):
Two brothers who are essentially two aspects of one personality.
You know, one is kind of laid back and casual and stuff.
Of and the other one is kind of a future lawyer
kind of guy you know and that was
(23:36):
you know it was a comic adventure kind
of show and it was fun and and it lasted for
quite a while and so we
were on that for i don't know a couple
of years three years maybe and and then
the people who were our bosses who were originally who originally hired us left
(23:58):
and they went to disney and so we worked another year at universal at the on
that show and they said you know when you please come.
Disney and work with us you know so we did and we you know that was we worked
(24:19):
on a couple of of different shows.
One was called Sidekicks. That was the first one.
And that was about a police officer whose son is.
A karate champion so there was there was ernie reyes jr who later became a a ninja turtle,
(24:44):
okay but but at that at this time it was it was kind of a limited plot because
what it was was obviously you know you have this great tough cop and he gets
into these situations where,
he's with you know he picks up earning at school his son
and you know they suddenly see that
somebody's being robbed and and the cop says
(25:07):
you know stay in the car ernie and he
goes to take care of it or he gets hit over the head or
something and ernie comes and beats the
hell out of the bad guys and and uh you know he was a very he was a real karate
you know he actually was the national karate champion for a you know for his
age and his father was in senior national national karate champ that ernie rex
(25:31):
senior it was you know so it was it was interesting.
See people breaking a lot of boards and
things yeah you know anyway
it was fun but you know after that we worked on a show that was called the oldest
rookie it was called sorbino and he was you know basically the plot was that
(25:52):
he had been a police officer who had worked his way up through the sort of schmoozing
part of the police department,
the part where, you know, you're going around and kind of, you know,
being in parties and, and talking to lobbyists and, you know, things like that.
He spent more time basically wearing a tuxedo than a, than a police uniform.
(26:17):
And then his old partner from when he was a rookie is killed in the line of duty.
And he decides he wants to be a police officer again
a street cop and he goes back to
to doing we wrote that for a year and
that was that was kind of fun too because partly because listening
(26:37):
you know paul servino was was so experienced and
so good at what he did that he
would explain things to you when you're going over a script
with him you know what you could learn from he was really good so great
actor great actor and then
how did you find your way back to just writing
(26:58):
books oh i never stopped i always
okay always always what uh-huh that was just
okay you know they were they were a little slower i think
you know and for the last i don't know 20 years or so i've been doing one a
year but i did you know i couldn't keep up that pace at the time even when I
was writing television because you know when you're on a series you know once that ship sails,
(27:25):
you've got to have you know an hour of film ready every week no matter what you know right so.
And so we were, we were busy. Now we've had a number of, of nonfiction authors
on podcasts before, and that has led to, I've just noticed from the comments and whatnot,
(27:47):
a number of aspiring writers taking an interest in, in authors discussing their
books and their process.
And one question I think that they would like to know the answer to.
So for a aspiring writer today, right, the process has completely changed with
(28:08):
all these self-published books.
And my limited understanding of it is that the publishing industry is shrinking a bit.
Do you have any advice, any thoughts for those new writers that want to get
their book out there and reach more people?
How do they, how do they tackle this in this new landscape of, of publishing?
(28:34):
Well, you know, it is, it is tricky in a way because, you know,
you're in a situation when you're publishing or, you know, writing to live,
you know, you, you usually start from a place where I started,
which is, you know, I wrote for fun and I had a lot of fun and somebody,
I considered myself satisfied and lucky.
(28:54):
And then at a certain point, I finally wrote something I thought maybe somebody
who wasn't related to me by blood or marriage might actually want to read.
And I started trying to sell it, you know.
But what I realized pretty early on is that the very best thing you can have is an agent.
(29:16):
You know, if you're getting an agent, it's harder than getting something published
today, you know, which is kind of a tricky situation.
But I mean, it was, that was, was the big lucky break in a way was getting,
it was what I did was I got the,
(29:37):
there's a little balloon pamphlet that they used to produce at the writer of
the authors guild in New York.
And it had a list of the names and addresses and so on of the agents that sort
of agreed to, you know, be honest and,
you know, take a limited amount of money out of your royalties and so on.
(30:03):
It was like, I think, 10% at the time, but I'm sure it's been raised to like 15.
But anyway, so what I did was I wrote a letter and a synopsis of the book that
I was trying to sell. And I sent it to...
A bunch of agents, you know, and fortunately, as I went down the list,
(30:23):
the one that answered first was a guy named, believe it or not, Lurton Blessing Game.
I wish I had made that name up, but it was his name.
That's an amazing name. Yeah, it is.
And, you know, he wrote to me and he said, you know, in those days,
you didn't make a long distance phone call idly.
(30:44):
So, you know, You know, you would communicate by mail.
And, you know, he said, the first question was, who are you?
And so I sent him a letter, you know, answering, you know, basically,
I am nobody is what I explained.
(31:05):
And he said, well, send me the book and I'll read it.
And then about two weeks later he wrote back to me and he said i like it i'll
find a publisher and he did which was yeah you know a lady named suzanne kirk
at uh scribners and she was,
(31:27):
a great editor of people's work in in the field of and all sort of mysteries
and thrillers she was She was terrific.
And, you know, so it all kind of went from there.
You know, the first book won an Edgar, so it gave me a chance to sort of be
(31:51):
taken seriously. Right.
I've been very lucky in these, in these cases, because, you know,
one of the things that, you know, it has, you, you do this stuff is that there
are thousands of people who,
Who are writing good books out there, you know, and really having a terrible
(32:15):
time trying to get anybody to take a look at them.
I don't, I mean, anybody with, with power to do anything about it and,
you know, and it's, it's, it's tough.
And, and you, you know, you feel all kinds of frustration and you,
particularly when you see a book that's terrible, that, you know,
is climbing a seller list.
(32:37):
You know everybody has that experience of you know looking at something and
going oh my god what what happened here what why is the universe tilted like this,
but you know you just have to you know persevere and try and you know enjoy the ride to the extent
that you can have been out well and it sounds like you were also lucky in that you,
(33:06):
married the right person because it sounds i'm getting
the sense that your wife is very important to your writing and
thinking process and i wanted to ask about that
how big of a role does she play in making decisions
about your books none of
that she is a novelist she's a
very golden novelist and you know
(33:28):
she's got i believe seven books now and then
you know some of them are funny some of them are you know
tragic you know tragic aspects all kinds of things she's a terrific writer and
always was you know and she was a poet before that we've been married for 44
years in august and were together for a while before that.
(33:53):
So, you know, she's been around a while and has been...
Absolutely important to one aspect of this.
We don't read each other's work until we're ready. Okay, until it's done.
So she reads first drafts of my books.
(34:14):
And, you know, she's the very first reader, first reader, whatever.
And she is merciless. She's absolutely merciless.
You know will and she
does the the thing which is the very hardest that you
can do with a friend or a relative or whatever and that is she tells the truth
(34:34):
if something is awful she tells you it's awful you know and if yeah you know
and it's it's it's been just incredibly good for me because Because you really do,
you get used to an idea and you think you've got it all worked out.
(34:55):
But it's really important to have somebody who, a truth teller that you know.
And in her case, she's fortunately, she's brilliant. So that really helps.
That helps a lot. And the room that I'm sitting in right now is where we both write every day.
(35:18):
I have a desk here and she has a desk down there a ways.
And, you know, we both sit here and refuse to answer the phone. Right.
Well, since you mentioned the room, what is that daily process look like?
Well, first, let's start with how many days a year do you write?
(35:43):
I mean, do you write every day? Are there breaks in there between books?
And then how many hours per day typically are you at the desk writing?
It has changed over the years.
I've been at this a long time, and I probably don't have the stamina that I used to.
And I know my eyes don't take 12-hour writing things that sometimes used to happen.
(36:08):
But we both essentially write every day, just a little bit.
Maybe and maybe a lot it depends
you know you're when you're doing this you you sometimes have these situations
where if you solve one thing or write some portion that that works well enough
(36:28):
you feel as though you've actually accomplished a day's work and there are other days when.
You will get on the roll and you realize that you're you know i write my first
drafts by hand And so, you know, sometimes I'll have, you know, nine, 10, 12 pages,
you know, but that's, that doesn't happen very often. They usually,
(36:53):
you know, at certain points it does.
And, you know, she does things at her pace and it's, well,
we work every day, but what that does is it frees our lives entirely.
In other words, if there's a day or a week or something that we can't work or
(37:15):
are doing something else or,
you know, children want to come over and whatever happens,
you know, we're completely free. I mean, we don't.
We don't put in necessarily a full day every day, but, you know,
(37:36):
I would say we probably were, I don't know, an average working day is like five hours.
Sure. How that can be working. It can be good. I don't know.
It's one of those things where Gertrude Stein wrote something at one point that said,
she said that, you know, sometimes you sit and stare at a blank page for eight
(37:59):
hours and then write something for 15 minutes,
you know, because you finally figured it out or whatever. And, you know, it's.
So there are days like that. I think there are. Yeah. Yeah, I mean,
I don't have the patience to sit for eight hours anymore and do that.
But, you know, I get up and walk around and stuff. And sometimes,
you know, something occurs to you and sometimes it doesn't.
(38:24):
But, you know, the back of me, you know, what Norman Mailer,
I don't know why all these people are coming back into my head right now.
But at one point he said that when you plan that, you know, tomorrow you're going to write,
your subconscious mind begins to prepare the materials, you know, which is true.
(38:48):
You know, you sort of wake up already ready to do business.
Well, you know, that's an interesting thought. Scott, is there is there a process
there for you where you are trying to prepare like to get your subconscious active?
Are you thinking about characters before you fall asleep and then in the morning
you pop up with new ideas?
(39:10):
I mean, is there anything you're doing that's for the writing,
but it's not during the writing process?
Well, I think, you know, at a certain point when you've been doing it for a really long time.
You're always in that mode and you're, you know, everything you read,
everything you see, every conversation that you have, it's sometimes even overheard,
(39:31):
you know, things that you,
you know, I'm sure writers are all even just terrible eavesdroppers.
And, you know, I remember at one point I was in a, I was doing a book tour and
I was in a big hotel and there was this group group of people,
like a table for 12, right nearby,
which is, you know, and then there was a young woman who had apparently just
(39:56):
graduated from medical school, but she had been a pageant quitting type person.
She was going through all this stuff.
And she said, you know, I could probably do surgery every day in a pageant gown.
(40:18):
I would have enough of them I could still do it and I thought that always stuck
with me the image of this person,
in a gown and a mask doing surgery,
anyway did you ever use that image?
(40:39):
No it's just one of those things that sticks with you In other words,
you're always engaged in each world when you're writing.
I mean, you know, it's...
It's just another way of storing your thoughts and observations and,
(41:02):
you know, the images that you get coming into your, you know, it's fun.
You know, it's really a pleasant way to live, you know, because it's,
in a sense, it's kind of irresponsible, you know, telling lies for a living.
Yeah, they're good lies, though, right? I mean, I think with storytelling, it's funny.
(41:24):
I mean, we as as viewers, as readers, as audience members of any kind,
we want to be emotionally manipulated by someone we can trust in a good way.
Yeah, because the people that are fun to to read are people who are pretty much like us.
(41:46):
And and and you know we have the same
reaction like when i read somebody else's book i i
i'm absolutely like any other reader
i mean i'm i'm really interested i
you know i sometimes get worried about the characters you know
i think oh my god you know i hope
that's hope they get through this um you know it's it's really a i think just
(42:14):
a fundamental human thing you know We communicate how it feels and what things
we admire and what things we detest and so on.
There's a certain agreement on all of that.
Stephen King expressed something similar as a reader.
He said, well, when I'm not writing, I spend a lot of my downtime reading because
(42:37):
I just love stories. And he said, I can't imagine someone wanting to be a writer
that doesn't just love to ingest stories.
Who are some of your favorite writers?
Writers movies tv shows just anything
that comes to mind right now what's what's gotten you excited recently i sometimes
(43:00):
get requests from you know editors to yeah read whoever the latest person is
that they're pushing and maybe give them a blurb or whatever and you know i always have a few that
are, you know, really favorites.
And, you know, right now, actually, just recently, I read a book by, what's his name?
(43:26):
Oh, Robert Rothstein, who wrote a book, which came out in June called The Out-of-Town Lawyer.
I really admired that and also learned a lot of law stuff,
which is always fun because it was about it actually is about a complicated
court case and in which somebody is being prosecuted for murder essentially.
(43:53):
Also there was a new book which I read this year called Blood Rubies by Meilan Doquan,
which you know i got kind of excited about because it was so strange and interesting,
a a young woman whose
(44:14):
family is a jewel family
you know it was their you know expert the jewelers and
so and it becomes a jewel and you know
has gets herself into some terrible trouble
doing that and you know it's very
fast paced and a lot of most of it takes takes place in thailand which near
(44:36):
us is pretty fun because i didn't know very much about thailand but anyway you
know i read a lot of things like that that excite me there there's i don't know
some interesting things going on.
What have I liked in movies? Things.
(44:58):
Offhand, I can't think of.
Can't think of any favorites at the moment, but, you know, it's.
Every once in a while, there'll be something that I really love.
But at the moment, there are certain things about the series and the bear that's on FX, Hulu.
(45:19):
It's funny you mentioned that because I was just going to say,
if you haven't seen The Bear, it's such a unique show.
And it feels more like a book than most TV shows do.
I don't know how else to describe it. obviously it's very rich
visually so it's different than a book but it's it's
(45:40):
a different kind of writing for that show yeah they're doing
something special yeah it's interesting and different
and you know i can't say
i've liked all of it i have liked some of it a
lot you know and there's particular particular favorite
characters and things but you know
i also think that one of of the things that we that i
(46:01):
miss in the current situations that you
know almost everything is now seven or eight episodes you know while i was writing
for television our first year we we got had 26 episodes and cigarettes you know
so it was kind of a different different world and then you You have to forget about it for,
(46:23):
you know, what is it, like, I don't know, 40 weeks before you get to see the next year's.
Right. So that's kind of frustrating, but, you know, that's good.
But, you know, I also, you know, as I said, I do, you know, I really liked from,
you know, the Fargo episodes that I've seen, you know, the different years and
(46:48):
so on, you know, things like that.
Those seem to me to be the high point of what i
i uh see lately but yeah
yeah another excellent show for sure a
hero is is out now are are
you at liberty to say what you are currently
(47:08):
working on or what might be in the in the pipeline i finished finished the and
i think i'm through all the others else on the next book which is going to be
called pro bono and that will be out in,
(47:28):
january probably you know that's there was a.
And after the last, I don't know, the last that I spoke with the editors,
that seemed like it was done and they were sending it off for artwork.
So I guess that's a sure thing. Okay.
(47:52):
Once they bothered to do that, once we get through the copy editor.
Yeah. Yeah. If you've got a new book coming out each year, is that how much
of that time is writing it and how much is editing that book or going through
the editing process with all the different people involved?
Well, the people that I've been dealing with for the last few years are very fast.
(48:18):
So even if I kind of miss a deadline, that will work fast enough to make up
for whatever is necessary.
But it always seems to end up in the winter catalog.
Log and i've always you know accused them of you know doing putting my stuff
(48:40):
out in january because they don't want to lose anybody important in a plane crash okay.
Glad to see i don't know yes yeah and pro bono is that that's another standalone
book yeah yeah It's not connected to anything else. Okay. No.
(49:02):
And it's, you know, it's interesting. And it's one of those things that's,
again, it's different, very different from anything else that I've done.
So it's kind of fun to fool around with.
Can you tell us what the premise of Pro Bono is or just a teaser about it? Let's see. Okay.
(49:23):
There is a teenager whose mother is married to a con man.
She doesn't know it. He figures it out.
And just as, you know, having done that, he kind of triggers the process that
was going to happen anyway.
That is that this guy is going to steal all of her money and disappear, right? Right.
(49:48):
But let's say what he learns in this experience will actually make him very good at a future career,
which is to be a lawyer that is able to find and prosecute situations where
someone is stealing money from other people.
(50:10):
Well, you piqued my interest right at the, the T the teenager's mother is married
to a con man. She doesn't know it, but he's figured it out.
It's like, Oh, Oh, what's going to happen next? Yeah. I'm sure it's going to be fantastic.
I am excited to read that one as well. Well, well, thank you.
Thanks. So there'll be one, one sale.
(50:33):
There we go. Yes. We're in single seniors.
Right. Right. I'm just excited for the new book and it's really been a pleasure
talking to you. Great. Pleasure. Thank you.
Okay, everybody. Until next time, ask questions, don't accept the status quo and be curious.
(50:54):
Music.
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