May 3, 2024 • 43 mins
In this episode of the Police K9 Training Podcast, host Jeff Meyer welcomes Howard Young to share his experiences. Howard will be an instructor at the Colorado K9 Conference.
To contact Jeff Meyer email him at: JeffMeyer1@outlook.com
To see more about Jeff and the classes that are offered go to: www.Policek9Training.net
Thanks to this shows sponsors:
KATS K9 Record Keeping www.katsplatinum.com
______________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________
Ray Allen K9 https://www.rayallen.com/
____________________________________________________________________________
For information about the Colorado K9 Conference https://coloradok9conference.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey everybody. Before I get to the show today, I wanted to mention that I have
a new sponsor for this show, canineservices.com.
It's owned by Kevin Sheldahl. If you listened to a couple of podcasts ago,
I had Kevin on my show and Kevin has decades of actual handling experience as a police officer.
And he's also had his company for many, many years.
(00:20):
And through his company, Canine Services LLC, he provides basic and advanced canine training.
He's got all kinds of courses down there and everything you can think of,
patrol, detection, explosives, and even human remains.
He does workshops. He does seminars all over the place. And Kevin is just a
wealth of knowledge and a very humble guy.
So he's fun to be around and will give everything he has to make your team the very best.
(00:45):
So check him out at canineservices.com. So it's k-9services.com or give them a call at 505-250-4576.
And also I wanted to mention the Colorado Canine Conference.
It's coming up the end of July. I've been talking about it.
My next guest that I have today is one of the instructors, Howard Young.
So he'll be teaching at the Colorado Canine Conference. I have a lot of great instructors coming.
(01:09):
People are starting to register. We still have spots available.
But if you're going to register, get on it because I have a feeling we'll have
to cap our registration at some point.
So right now we're good. I'll keep you posted if it starts getting real tight.
I know it takes a little while for people to put in for it and get approval,
especially if you've got to travel.
So check out the ColoradoCanineConference.com page, all the information with all the instructors.
(01:32):
And then today, you'll hear Howard Young coming on here, one of our instructors.
That'll be fun just to have a conversation with Howard. A lot of people see
him on social media, but don't really know Howard.
So I just thought it'd be fun to have a little conversation with Howard.
So sit back, and I hope you enjoy the show.
Music.
(01:53):
This is the Police Canine Training Podcast with Jeff Meyer.
Join us for each episode to get real-world advice from canine professionals
who have experience on the street.
Each episode will focus on up-to-date information that you can use on the street.
Spend about 30 minutes with us each week as part of your training day.
Our goal at Police Canine Training is to make every canine team be the best they can be.
(02:16):
Music.
Welcome to the Police Canine Training Podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Meyer.
Today I have one of the instructors that's going to be here for the Colorado
Canine Conference. I have Howard Young on with me today.
And, I don't know, maybe two months ago or so I was on Howard's podcast,
(02:38):
if you want to check that out.
We had a good time kind of talking about my background. But,
you know, a lot of people like myself, you know, we see Howard out on social
media and he's doing a lot of training and stuff.
But I don't know everything about Howard, just kind of how he ended up getting
to be a dog trainer and all those things. So we're going to talk to him today
about some of his background, how he got where he is, and then we're going to
talk a little bit about what he's going to be teaching here in Colorado at the
(03:01):
Colorado Canine Conference.
So with that, how are you doing today, Howard?
I'm doing very well. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. I'm glad we finally connected.
We kind of have been playing phone tag and stuff, but here we are.
So can you, you know, for the people who maybe haven't heard your podcast,
you know, we'll one, talk about that and where to find you on social media and all those things.
(03:21):
And then you know talk about your background a little bit so
sure i'd say my my beginnings
are rather unusual from the standpoint that
i wasn't in law enforcement when i started this and to be honest i was way out
of my depth but it was just kind of one of those right place right time for
(03:43):
me situations yeah but when i graduated from college i was really into working
i was intrigued by working dogs.
I wouldn't say I was even into them because I didn't even know about them for the most part.
We had German Shepherds growing up and interestingly enough,
we did have one that ended up going to become a New Jersey State Police Dog. Yeah.
(04:03):
It was given to us by some folks that we knew, German friends of ours in Virginia.
And it ended up being really more dog than we could even imagine. Yeah.
So we reached out to some folks and they came and evaluated and took him.
And that was, that was kind of my intro, I guess.
So were you training those dogs at home or are they just family pets?
(04:26):
Just basic obedience. Yeah. It's funny.
I remember this is my, my dad's type A personality.
I was 16 years old, didn't have my license for very long.
And he was putting that dog through an obedience course, which was your basic keeler method.
Yeah. Had prong collar and my dad was out of town and he didn't want the dog
(04:46):
to miss. So he sent me in his stead and it was probably the worst possible experience.
And the, how he was big and strong and dog aggressive.
It's just a bad experience, but I think that it gave me, it may be planted a seed, I guess. Yeah.
So when I graduated from college, I wanted to get a Rottweiler and I don't know why a Rottweiler.
(05:13):
I just thought they were cool looking, big, strong, sturdy dogs.
And at that point, there really weren't very many to be found.
It was really before the big craze. So the cool part about that was that you
could find some that still had a lot of good working therapies without having to go far and wide.
So I had some good ones to start with, but I did the basic obedience myself.
(05:36):
And I kind of learned through really reading and actually had a trainer in our
area who trained a dog for me. And I learned a lot from that experience.
And from there, I actually wanted to do some protection work with it.
So I connected with a gentleman who was in a neighboring county who trained
(05:56):
protection dogs and police dogs.
And he had just lost his decoy.
And I was young and athletic enough and fit enough.
And it would amount to an informal apprenticeship for probably two years where
I basically would go about three times a week and work with he and his dogs
(06:19):
and learned a tremendous amount.
Out and he turned me on to the sport of schutzen and i felt
like you know that was a really cool you know
base of knowledge as well because you know
here are these people that are committing all this time and energy and money
to something and they're so incredibly passionate about it so that was a great
(06:39):
experience but it ended up happening is that it got the attention of some of
the local police officers and they started bringing their dogs by because they
had some and issues with engagement.
Body mechanics, overall control.
Some of it was due to the fact that they just didn't have very good dogs.
(07:00):
They were getting a lot of donated dogs, and they just weren't all that good.
But it opened doors for me.
So essentially, there was a new chief in town, and he was looking to make some
changes, and he asked me to evaluate the four teams they had.
And basically, I set up some scenarios that I felt like were failed to them.
(07:20):
And there were two teams that were just really lacking.
And then my recommendation, and I typed it all up for him, four pages of documents.
And I don't know that he was expecting that. So he called me in his office about
two weeks after and offered me a job.
And I said, well, I was working as a mental health professional at the time.
(07:41):
He said, I have a job. I appreciate you wanting to hire me. That's great.
But he said, no, we'll work around your schedule.
So I am beginning my third. This is my 30th year with that agency. Wow. Wow. Wow.
So, when I say I was out of my depth, I was out of my depth.
There's no getting around that.
(08:01):
Yeah. And to this day, there are certain things that you will not see Howard
Young teach. You're not going to find me teaching tactics.
It's just not that I haven't learned things about it.
Yeah, yeah. But I just don't feel like that's my lane and I need to stay in. Sure, sure.
But in terms of procurement of dogs and selection of handlers,
(08:24):
I mean, I've been very much, that's been what I've done for the last 30 years.
We've picked up some agencies along the way and have our local sheriff's office in that group as well.
And I retired as an educator about two and a half years ago.
So with the sole purpose of doing more dog related things. Yeah.
(08:45):
So we're doing a lot of traveling, putting on some decoy schools, detection schools.
So for the first 25 years or so, you were doing this, you know,
in the evening around your other jobs and stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. It was at night. Yeah. Some long, long days. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
It's funny. We would train from six in the evening until 10 at night,
(09:07):
which were four-hour blocks. Yeah.
Which worked well for us because they were very small groups.
Yeah. maximum size would be, you know, four, four teams. And a lot of times it would be two.
So we would get a lot accomplished in those four hours.
And of course, we're not taking any meal breaks. It was relatively uninterrupted
(09:28):
unless, you know, something serious went on and needed to be called into work.
And that was the cool part, too, is that if there was something that needed
to be done, we could break free and go take care of it.
And that's true to this day. Yeah. And so when you first started,
did they give you kind of, you know, almost like carte blanche?
They really did, which is bizarre.
(09:50):
They gave me some resources in terms of I visited another department that the
chief kind of felt like was, he felt like was a good model for me to look at. And it was.
It was very helpful in terms of seeing what was out there.
And then I went to a couple big seminars.
I went to a NAPWADA seminar, a national seminar in Frederick, Maryland at 96.
(10:16):
And that's where I met Franco Angelini. and that those seeds were vital to my
development a guy like that who took an interest in me and you know I.
It's just been, that's just been, you know, phenomenal for me.
Somebody that will speak up for you in situations like that.
(10:39):
Because I will say, I wasn't necessarily greeted with open arms.
Well, that was going to be an extra question. What was the feeling at the agency,
you know, to have a non-sworn person come in and start revamping things?
There was never any question.
You know, sometimes when early on, when I would go out of town,
there would be occasional eyes, you know, eyebrows raised. Like,
(11:00):
and I, you know, for the most part, I just kind of brushed that off. Sure, sure.
I didn't want that to get in my way, but I guess, you know, I didn't feel like
it was as big a concern as maybe some folks might feel like it was.
And again, I wasn't pretending to be something that I wasn't.
Well, yeah, I think once they got to know you, I'm sure that any concern they
(11:21):
had would dissipate seeing that, like, you know, your own words stayed in your lane.
Sure. And now that I'm an old man doing this, I don't get any questions at all.
Yeah. One of the advantages of getting old, I guess. Exactly.
So at first, did you have to go and buy some new dogs?
Yes, that was, we started, this chief recognized the need to begin to buy dogs.
(11:46):
And obviously the quality was much different.
Yeah. And it's really strange. So initially they weren't even,
they weren't interested in detection at all, which was really kind of strange
because in this community, I look back and detection,
mainly narcotic detection, is our bread and butter.
Sure. And there are, the guys are finding dope on, in vehicles and,
(12:10):
and throughout their, their job every night.
So when I look back and thinking that they was just kind of short-sighted on
their part, but once we did get put some detection dogs, we can't imagine.
Yeah. It's funny when people don't know the capabilities and,
you know, kind of like here in our area with, uh, you know, gun and shell casing detection.
(12:31):
I think that'll always be around now once people are exposed to,
to how good it could be. Right.
So did you have trouble finding good dogs then? No, I actually,
there was a gentleman that was fairly local gentleman that was going and getting some nice dogs.
And I'd say I've probably in my, my course of working with these agencies,
(12:53):
I've probably used about a half a dozen vendors.
My last six dogs I have been buying directly from Germany from gotten to know.
And I basically talked to him for about a year and a half before I felt comfortable
enough to go ahead and make a purchase. Yes. Yeah.
I felt like the communication part was really important.
(13:13):
I wanted him to know what I was looking for.
I wanted him to know who I knew. Yeah. So there are some folks that were getting
dogs from him that I know and he knows that we're friends. Yeah.
Just trying to put, you know, all the protections in place. And that's important.
It's a dirty business. So. It is a dirt. It is a dirty business.
(13:34):
But I will say this about the vendors that I've done business with.
Each move was not a move out of feeling disappointment necessarily.
It was maybe trying something a little bit different.
And I say this, that I feel like I could go back to any one of those vendors
(13:54):
today if I really needed to. So there weren't any bridges burned.
It just chose a different direction at that time. Yeah, and I think both of
you, you know, I think it's healthy to maybe shop around a little bit.
I think, you know, both you and I have seen times where maybe an agency stays
with one vendor just too long, you know, and either they get too comfortable
(14:16):
or, you know, the vendor isn't, you know, doing some of the new stuff that people are or whatever.
But it's always healthy to at least shop around and compare and make sure that
you're, you know, getting the latest types of dogs.
Because dogs have changed quite a bit over just the last, I mean,
definitely over 30 years.
But I would say, I don't know, if I put a number on it, it seems like maybe
(14:38):
the last 15 years, I think the dogs, in my opinion, have changed quite a bit.
I don't know about how you feel. Yeah. No, I would definitely agree with that.
I mean, and I think my selection has changed as well. Absolutely. That's a good point.
Good point. The dogs, I think, when I was first getting started,
were primarily German Shepherds. And I would label them today probably a medium drive Shepherd. Yeah.
(15:00):
Not necessarily high drive as compared to some of the males that we're seeing.
And I felt like maybe we got away with some things that we wouldn't get away
with today in terms of our training. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I think that with the younger, high-energy dogs,
(15:21):
we've, you know, my background is heavy compulsion.
And so I have to guard against that, even today. Yeah.
I feel like I have to remind myself, you know, there's probably a better way to do this.
You know, you don't always want to reach for a bigger hammer. Yeah, exactly.
(15:42):
It'd be really nice to get this dog to want.
Well, and that's probably one of the great things about the mows getting very popular.
And then in my opinion, especially the Dutchies, because, you know,
there's most of the Dutchies that I've trained have that, just that hardness
to them that compulsion is not going to work.
So you, you, you have to be a better trainer when you start dealing with those
(16:04):
types of dogs. I agree wholeheartedly. I have one at home.
He's definitely that way.
If you decide you want to, you know, be hard-headed and be handed,
he's going to remind you. That's not a good choice.
Yeah, there's battle of wills that a lot of times they're going to win that battle.
So, going back, you know, you get your first set of dogs and I mean,
(16:28):
there had to be some pressure on you.
You're going out and buying dogs as a new job and stuff.
And then did you get new handlers or did you give those new dogs to the existing handlers?
That group, the original group, stayed in there pretty good.
Then there was some transition. One of the things that just became a reality
(16:48):
about that particular agency is that it's relatively small.
There were always four teams, but it seemed like there was a three-year period
that was, if I could keep a guy on for three years without losing him to another
facet, then things were good.
That's a short period of time. That is a very short period of time because I
(17:10):
firmly believe that a lot of guys don't come into their own until their third year. Oh, exactly.
But there were some guys that ended up staying and getting very invested.
We lost a handler in 2016 to a shooting.
It wasn't a dog-involved shooting, but serving a warrant. And he was somebody
(17:32):
that had been in for 10 years.
And I always made the comment that he was never going to do anything else.
I think that if he was still with us today, day he would have he would have
succumbed to the pressure to become to become a the,
lieutenant yeah yeah yeah but to spade probably would have been a lieutenant
yeah so so you get that those guys up and running obviously have some success
(17:57):
then you start uh you introduced some detection work to them yes yeah and it's
funny i i didn't really i my beginnings were
basically, I convinced them to purchase a detection dog from Von Lick.
And so my beginnings of learning to do detection work was going out there,
(18:19):
observing the training with that dog.
And I felt like we were very particular.
I mean, I was measuring boxes to deciding to come home and make these boxes and make this work.
And I don't know that I, you know, I just kind of gleaned certain things.
So I wouldn't say that even the method that I picked up was necessarily their
(18:40):
method, but for the most part it was my understanding of it anyway. Yeah.
But that's morphed, you know, over the last couple of years as well. Yeah.
And they weren't using any markers at that time or that we were aware of. Yeah.
We were using them. We just didn't know it. That's a good point.
Everybody says they don't use markers. Yes, you do.
(19:02):
There were all kinds of things we were marking. and it might be Velcro on your
pants. It could be anything. Yep, exactly. Exactly. We all use markers.
So then did that stay pretty much the same number of dogs and same number of
handlers over most of the time you've been there? Yes.
That particular agency has always maintained four, but then we picked up the
local sheriff's office and they have five.
(19:23):
So more than doubled your amount of work all of a sudden.
Yes. And then there's been an agency here or there. I did one stint for two years recently,
land it was by design it was to be one year
to get them up and running yeah yeah and to be
self-sufficient and ended up being two years which
was fine yeah and but those four guys were they were commuting at an incredible
(19:47):
distance to come here it was just yeah when you're uh when you get a new dog
with a new handler when you were still working full-time were you just training
every or evening with them getting up through?
We were doing just three nights a week, which doesn't seem like a lot,
but the retention is amazing.
(20:07):
The other part is that because we were training in-house, essentially officers were trained,
Still able to work a relatively uninterrupted schedule.
So nobody was being sent out of town for a number of weeks.
And the beauty of that is that they allowed me to take as much time as I needed.
(20:31):
So we wouldn't put a number of weeks on our course. That's good.
It would be all based on skills acquisition. So, typically what happened is
that we discovered that we could have a dog up and running in detection before
your typical patrol functions.
So, we would get them up and running and get them certified and they'd start
(20:51):
using dogs on the road, but they'd still be in school with me finishing out the patrol function.
And that's pretty much the model that we've used all along.
And some people might think that that sounds, you know, three nights a week.
But, you know, if you're going to compare that to if somebody's working four
tens, but they're in a group of 12 teams, three nights a week when you're doing
(21:12):
one dog, you're getting way more done, actually.
Oh, yeah. To work one dog for four hours.
Yeah. Yeah. You run out of dogs, patients, handlers.
Yeah, you get sick of each other.
For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So it sounds like though,
that they, they've given you a lot of latitude,
(21:33):
you know, to do, to, to become the, the expert, you know, for their,
for their agency, which with the, the quick turnover,
to me, it makes a lot of sense that they've retained you there,
you know, so that you can be the, the one constant and, and,
you know, their, their canine.
It's been a beautiful arrangement from the standpoint that I am not part of
(21:54):
the hierarchy, but yet I have a relationship with all the key people,
including the chief, so...
Well, at this point, you probably remember when the chief was a rookie,
probably. I do. I do. It's funny.
We were at an event recently. It was a citizen's police academy,
and they wanted the canines to do a portion of it.
(22:17):
And I was looking around the room, and I said, there is no one here anymore when I started.
Isn't that crazy? No one. Yeah.
Yeah. That's how it's funny. You know, when you started, you're a rookie cop,
you see the chiefs and it's like, wow, that's a chief.
And then throughout your time, it's like, oh, I kind of remember that guy.
And then by the time you're ready to retire, it's like, oh, I worked with that guy.
(22:41):
It's no longer a chief. It's by his first name. And you remember working a car
with him. So it is a funny transition.
It is a funny. It was also we just recently interviewed Jay Nix on our podcast.
And it's going to come out in a couple of days. But one of the things that we
talked about is investing in people.
And when I look around and I realize that, you know, this is about training
(23:06):
dogs, but it is about so much more.
It's about, and now I'm kind of of the age where a lot of these guys are,
you know, they're younger than my sons.
Yeah. So I feel like it's also my duty to provide them with maybe a little wisdom
and guidance as it relates to basically life in general and decision-making
(23:28):
and getting caught up in things that are of no real consequence.
This too shall pass. They'll get wound up about something. And I'll say,
you guys have no idea how many times this has come up.
Yeah, I've seen it before. and everybody survived.
So when it comes to dog training, you said, you know, that, you know,
(23:50):
like many people, you started out being much more compulsion.
Now, you know, over the years, I think everybody is, you know,
by necessity or education or everything you
know definitely our profession has gotten way way better
about how we train what are some of the big takeaways that you have now like
if you're training a dog that some of the you know the howard young things that
(24:14):
maybe you know as you're traveling you think boy i wish some more people knew
this trick or that trick or these these ideas do you have some of those things
from all your time doing it i'm not sure i quite understand You know,
basically, you know, I mean, I know, you know, some of the things,
some tricks of the trade that you've come up with. Oh, sure, sure.
From doing it for a while. Yeah, I, you know, I just recently did a presentation
(24:37):
at Hold the Line Conference, and it was about what we're going to talk about
in Colorado at the Colorado conference.
But one of the things that's, to me, that's interesting is that there are some
groups, and I think I probably have been guilty of this before,
of making dogs super, super resilient to anything that we're trying to accomplish
(25:00):
that, let's say something like Aldi.
And if you do not have an effective method,
if you haven't chosen something that is going to work pretty consistently with
most dogs, And if it involves compulsion, what typically happens is that somebody
will try something and it doesn't work.
(25:21):
Well, it's making that dog that much better and stronger and resilient.
So they try something else, and it's not as effective either.
And then they try something else, and they try something else,
and they try something else.
And they become really, really good at making that dog learn to fight through
everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
(25:42):
That's a good, good way to, and the good, the analogy is good.
Yeah. They're getting more resilient.
So, I think there are ways now I think I've been guilty maybe of overdoing,
of really overdoing the bite work.
Not that I'm saying it doesn't need to be done, but overdoing it without implementing
some controls along the way. Yep.
(26:04):
And I think that's a great point. And I think that probably comes from some of the background.
Some of the dogs, when you first had them, I remember we had to kind of get
those dogs jazzed up about doing some of it. Right.
And you feel like, well, we got to keep building. We got to keep building.
We got to make that grit better. We got to make it fuller, stronger.
And then what you realize is that you've created this muscle-bound dog that's
(26:29):
just super, super tough and doesn't want to let go. Yeah, and can't think straight
anymore because he's so into the bite work.
Right. Two brain cells, and they're both fighting with each other. Yeah.
And you had mentioned that some of the stuff, what kind of stuff for your classroom
and then for our scenarios out here, what are you going to do?
Well, I feel like one of the things that we've been pretty successful at is
(26:51):
getting dogs prepared for real-world engagement.
Engagement, not being equipment fixated, giving them the pictures necessary
to actually engage someone without any real confusion on the street.
And really, the way I look at that is just providing them with a lot of different pictures.
(27:13):
Obviously, one of those is taking a dog that is neutral in a muzzle and teaching
him how to muzzle fight. There's no visible equipment.
I mean, And I think most people understand that, but also the implementation
of prosthetics if it's done properly.
And I think that's the key. The same situation is with the hidden sleeve.
(27:35):
Because we're dealing with masters of association. They spot the differences very quickly.
Oh, yeah. And once the game is up as it relates to a hidden sleeve or prosthetic,
it's just a piece of equipment.
Exactly, exactly. But if we can set it up so that the dog rounds the corner
and it's low light and it's presented in a way that it looks natural,
(27:58):
then we're going to be able to pull something off that might be pretty special for them.
Yeah, I agree. in terms of bridging that gap. I agree.
But if you're going to take that prosthetic and just wave it around and present
it like a sleeve, the dog is going to treat it like a sleeve. Yep, yep.
I can say that when we've done it properly, I feel for some dogs you can actually sense the difference.
(28:25):
That when they bite it, they go, oh, this is different. This is not our typical game.
That's been my experience. So when they bite that prosthetic the first time,
it's very much like where I've seen a dog on their first street bite.
A lot of times they'll bite it once and then kind of half-ass let go and then
re-bite. Like this doesn't seem right, but it's fun.
(28:45):
So you can use that moment to kind of encourage the dog and show them that,
like you say, that picture.
But what if you were training with somebody and they told you they use the prosthetic
every training day? I'm assuming you'd discourage that.
Oh, I would, for sure. We use it very sparingly. Yeah.
It's not something that we do very often, but every once in a while we'll throw it in. Yeah.
(29:09):
Try to catch the dog off guard and find a safe way to do it.
And then, I know you had mentioned, you know, it was part of your title of your
class is Control to Effective Engagement.
So, how much control do you want to put on, especially a new dog when they're hitting the street?
Well, I have an expectation that this is just me personally,
(29:32):
and I have nothing against folks that want to.
Physically take a dog off strong i don't have
an objection to that but i feel like if i'm going to go through
the the trouble to teach a dog to
out i have an expectation yeah yeah so when
we when we're training we don't typically take
dogs off strong we expect we expect
(29:53):
them to out so of course you know
you learn by learn by doing that there are certain
situations that are created going to be
more difficult for a dog to want to out yeah yeah same
reason with any dog that's super super possessive of
a toy like they that could figure out the two ball game pretty quickly yeah
but if they've had to hunt and work for that toy and then they get it and now
(30:17):
you're going to walk them back to the car and then take it from them that's
that for some dogs that's different yeah i worked for this it's mine i'm possessing
it and i'm not just going to give it
up because i know the game's over yeah yeah so we do have an expectation that they out now,
there are some sorts of situations i know guys will take a dog off strong and
(30:38):
i don't i don't object to that yeah but i also there have been situations that
i know dogs have been deployed and there's no way the handler could get to exactly
exactly safely yeah and we rely on that help,
Yeah, and I think there's a
lot of, I think, thought process anymore that the out's not as important.
(30:58):
And I firmly believe it's a critical skill.
But I guess what I'm asking about control too is you're not putting...
A dog out there like i've heard this theory and
you know i've never talked about it but it's never been my theory i've heard
the theory that people want dogs to be pretty dirty when
they get out on the street with very little control because then
(31:19):
they they'll most likely and you know effectively engage
a suspect and then they put more control later after they
have a few street bites i've never bought into that theory i'm
assuming that's not something that no i don't i
really haven't bought into that theory i i do there have
been situations if i'm going to be completely honest we've had
failures sure absolutely and i i don't feel
(31:40):
like that's talked about enough i know that
for for a novice handler going through a school and they're
seeing the dog bite bite bite they're seeing the bite equipment for
the most part there's an accidental bite but
and then the first time that dog fails they're absolutely
devastated yep yep and they're and
they shouldn't be devastated disappointed yes yeah
(32:03):
but but there should be at.
Least in understanding that most of the time selection
is right that it's probably the
fact that the dog was confused he didn't understand what he
was supposed to do yeah and i just did a podcast kind of talk about that
and i got a lot of really good feedback from from people you
know on the same thing because you know there's either
(32:24):
you know people that have done this for a long time there's either guys who
have had failures or there's guys who lie and say they didn't have them because
there's no there's not anybody who hasn't had dogs do some weird stuff you know
at the worst possible time sure i think what what happened it's it's certainly damaging to them.
Yeah absolutely then it gets out and if the shift buys
(32:46):
into this this notion that the dog won't engage
yep then they feel like they're fighting an uphill battle
yeah yeah absolutely but
i you know i think again you know just about proper preparation you
know hopefully the dog does well and then part of my
training a lot of times is that i you know try and get
them to do crisis this rehearsal in their mind that what happens
(33:08):
when the dog runs next to the guy as he's running down the street because it
could happen you know you just don't know until you've
been there you don't know for sure with each dog and i've seen some some dogs
that eventually get to be complete man-eaters that had trouble at first you
know and yeah and i think really for the dogs that we really want on the street
i mean i know you and i've both seen dogs over the years that you know You know,
(33:31):
you get them out of the kennel, they're ready to eat everybody.
And we would, you know, you could get some control on them, but stay back, you know.
And those dogs didn't have that many failures because the first human being
they find is going to get bit.
But those aren't the kind of dogs that should be out on the street now.
We need a lot more control and professionalism and everything else.
(33:52):
I agree. You know, I…,
Well, the liability aspect, for sure. Yeah. If I can eliminate those dogs from
my selection, I certainly do. Yeah.
I would have probably at one point was guilty of maybe wanting a little bit of that in our room.
Oh, yeah. I think of some of the dogs I bought in the past, and it's like,
(34:14):
man, I wouldn't buy that dog today.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I even just recently kind of learned that a little bit
because for my detection dogs,
even my bomb dogs, I like really, really high drive, busy, busy dogs that are,
you know, and I have some luck because a lot of times when I go to a kennel,
(34:34):
people have turned down the dogs I want.
And I've somehow, somehow I find a way to find some of the craziest,
even labs that are just over the top drive because it's what I want.
And I recently selected a dog for an agency and it wasn't a usual,
you know, all my friends here around here said, oh, that's not a Jeff Meyer
dog because the dog was pretty, pretty dialed in.
(34:56):
And I kind of learned something there because for the agency and for where the
dog's working and how much training they're getting, it's just a perfect dog.
And if there would have been a Jeff Meyer dog available there,
I probably would have taken some crazy dog, and that handler would probably be having trouble now.
So it's a learning game for sure, always trying to figure out what you can do better.
(35:16):
And the next time I buy a detection dog, I'll probably try and middle it a little
bit instead of finding the craziest dog possible.
What's funny, I think I had this conversation with somebody recently about how nuanced things are.
And I thought that he actually used the term nuanced. nuanced i
thought that it that makes i think that is the perfect
term because you could give somebody a
(35:39):
template about regarding what to do and they
probably can't do it the same way they they may not be able to do it as well
but they may do it better they may focus in on yeah an element of it that is
that you missed yeah and they but perhaps they've spent too much time working
on a particular Like this whole notion of control.
(36:03):
I feel like if you, if you go too far in without implementing some control,
you, you could be facing a really difficult experience.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You're going to build the dog up too much.
So then we're going to classroom stuff and then do some scenario stuff.
Are you, are you already thinking of what kind of scenario stuff you want to do when you're out here?
I am thinking of some things, definitely some things with the prosthetic,
(36:28):
definitely some things with the muzzle. Yeah.
And I know there's some other folks that I know Steve will, he's got some stuff.
Oh, absolutely. I think it'd be, and that's why I'm really looking forward to it.
Cause I got, you know, such a wide amount of knowledge coming out here that
I think, you know, I'm going to be jealous I don't have a dog to kind of go
through some of these scenarios because they're fun.
(36:48):
You know, challenging scenarios should be fun and everybody should,
you know, do well on some and maybe not quite as well and leave a little bit
better than when they came.
That's, you know, we should be fun about it.
Well, I'm looking forward to it. I think it will be fun.
Yeah. And tell us a little bit more about the other stuff you got going on.
You got your new company that you said you started a couple of years ago. Yes.
(37:09):
2018, we started White Beard Canine. And so that agency that I've worked with
for so long essentially resigned my position, and now I contract services.
The great part is nothing's changed.
The relationships are the things that are important about that. Yeah, yeah.
It's given me, it's funny, it's given me a lot more freedom.
(37:32):
Sure. Whereas I'm willing to go invest more in myself for additional training.
Whereas before I was kind of felt like I was waiting for the agency to pay for it.
Yeah. And now I just, that first year, that 2018, I went to four very significant
workshops that really changed a lot of my thinking.
(37:54):
Each one of those folks was, were using condition reinforcers and markers.
Yeah. and for for a lot of different things not just detection and it really
kind of opened my eyes and changed some things and created some you know some
good working relationships with some of those people and,
So yeah, we're, we're staying busy. Yeah. As busy as we want to be. Yeah. Yeah. I get that.
(38:19):
You're doing seminars. People can contact you through White Beard Canine and
hire you to do a seminar if they want.
They certainly can. I do a lot of the decoy seminars. I bring a gentleman with
me who's, who's young and talented.
And I just, you know, if I'm being realistic, realistic with myself,
there's certain things I, you're not going to find me rolling around on the
(38:40):
ground with a dog anymore.
More i do good just to get back up without the dog
sure and then
your podcast tell us about that yes working dog
depot i do that with buddy of mine rich harden
rich has got a incredible resume and it's been a dog guy for a long time he's
done lots of things with dogs and he approached me about doing podcasts several
(39:06):
years ago and we we made an attempt and we failed miserably,
because we just didn't have any clue what we were doing.
We made a second attempt and it stuck.
So we just published our 38th episode and we're into our second year. Nice. Yeah.
I'll put the link to that in case people, I'm sure people already found it,
(39:28):
but I'll put the link there and stuff on there.
How did you and Rich meet over the years? We used to attend a seminar in Sevierville,
Tennessee every year at the same year.
Year it was a street survival seminar and rich was
working for cobra canine at the time so he
was doing helping with the training of the navy seal program and we just kind
(39:50):
of struck up a friendship and remained friends and it was funny when he called
and he told me that he was starting he wanted to do a podcast and i said that's
great let me know how that turns out and he said no i I want to do it with you. I said, oh, okay.
I guess I will know. Are you sure?
It's been a good experience. As you know, it can be a lot of fun.
(40:14):
Yeah, it's a little bit of work, but I enjoy it. That's why I just started up
this one after I left my last company. So it is good.
So I think that's quite a bit of stuff to talk about you.
And I'm looking forward to, you know, it's about two months away here to the
Colorado Canine Conference. So it should be a good event.
I'll put information about that in our show notes too if you want to check it
(40:37):
out and maybe come out. We still have spots available.
So it should be fun. And I thank you for taking the time today to get on.
I think I'll probably bring you back on here real soon.
And maybe we'll get into some real meat and potatoes and some real specific
training ideas if you'd like to do that.
Sure. That sounds fun. I appreciate it. All right. Thank you.
(40:57):
All right, that's going to wrap it up with our conversation with Howard Young.
And I wanted to also end the show talking again about Bob Eden and Katz.
You've been hearing me talk about it all year. He's a supporter of this show,
and I sure appreciate all the support that he's given this show.
So check out katzplatinum.com. If you need record-keeping advice or you just
(41:18):
want to kind of figure out if Katz Platinum is something for you, check out the website.
He's got a free trial where you can really play with it. it,
see how customizable it is, and just check it out.
They've been doing record keeping longer than anybody.
Bob kind of originated the concept and he keeps perfecting it year in and year out.
So check out catsplatinum.com. And finally, I want to thank Ray Allen again.
(41:42):
Ray Allen's going to be our lead sponsor at the Colorado Canine Conference.
And they're here in Colorado and they're also a supporter of the show.
So Ray Allen is just a quality company. They have quality products,
but it's backed by quality people.
And you see it when you, you know, when you get the products,
you know, their quality.
If you ever have any problem with any of the products, they will work with you.
(42:03):
They, they stand behind all of their stuff.
They're easy to work with. Their shipping is quick. Their products are good.
So check out Ray Allen manufacturing or rayallen.com, rayallencanine.com.
I really like their products. I mentioned a lot of times that I like the,
The muzzles that they have, one of the very best, but they have lots of good products.
So check out RayAllenCanine.com, and I thank them for both sponsoring this show
(42:27):
and sponsoring the Colorado Canine Conference.
Thanks for listening, everybody. Have a safe week.
Music.
Hey everybody. Before I get to the show today, I wanted to mention that I have
a new sponsor for this show, canineservices.com.
It's owned by Kevin Sheldahl. If you listened to a couple of podcasts ago,
I had Kevin on my show and Kevin has decades of actual handling experience as a police officer.
And he's also had his company for many, many years.
(00:20):
And through his company, Canine Services LLC, he provides basic and advanced canine training.
He's got all kinds of courses down there and everything you can think of,
patrol, detection, explosives, and even human remains.
He does workshops. He does seminars all over the place. And Kevin is just a
wealth of knowledge and a very humble guy.
So he's fun to be around and will give everything he has to make your team the very best.
(00:45):
So check him out at canineservices.com. So it's k-9services.com or give them a call at 505-250-4576.
And also I wanted to mention the Colorado Canine Conference.
It's coming up the end of July. I've been talking about it.
My next guest that I have today is one of the instructors, Howard Young.
So he'll be teaching at the Colorado Canine Conference. I have a lot of great instructors coming.
(01:09):
People are starting to register. We still have spots available.
But if you're going to register, get on it because I have a feeling we'll have
to cap our registration at some point.
So right now we're good. I'll keep you posted if it starts getting real tight.
I know it takes a little while for people to put in for it and get approval,
especially if you've got to travel.
So check out the ColoradoCanineConference.com page, all the information with all the instructors.
(01:32):
And then today, you'll hear Howard Young coming on here, one of our instructors.
That'll be fun just to have a conversation with Howard. A lot of people see
him on social media, but don't really know Howard.
So I just thought it'd be fun to have a little conversation with Howard.
So sit back, and I hope you enjoy the show.
Music.
(01:53):
This is the Police Canine Training Podcast with Jeff Meyer.
Join us for each episode to get real-world advice from canine professionals
who have experience on the street.
Each episode will focus on up-to-date information that you can use on the street.
Spend about 30 minutes with us each week as part of your training day.
Our goal at Police Canine Training is to make every canine team be the best they can be.
(02:16):
Music.
Welcome to the Police Canine Training Podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Meyer.
Today I have one of the instructors that's going to be here for the Colorado
Canine Conference. I have Howard Young on with me today.
And, I don't know, maybe two months ago or so I was on Howard's podcast,
(02:38):
if you want to check that out.
We had a good time kind of talking about my background. But,
you know, a lot of people like myself, you know, we see Howard out on social
media and he's doing a lot of training and stuff.
But I don't know everything about Howard, just kind of how he ended up getting
to be a dog trainer and all those things. So we're going to talk to him today
about some of his background, how he got where he is, and then we're going to
talk a little bit about what he's going to be teaching here in Colorado at the
(03:01):
Colorado Canine Conference.
So with that, how are you doing today, Howard?
I'm doing very well. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. I'm glad we finally connected.
We kind of have been playing phone tag and stuff, but here we are.
So can you, you know, for the people who maybe haven't heard your podcast,
you know, we'll one, talk about that and where to find you on social media and all those things.
(03:21):
And then you know talk about your background a little bit so
sure i'd say my my beginnings
are rather unusual from the standpoint that
i wasn't in law enforcement when i started this and to be honest i was way out
of my depth but it was just kind of one of those right place right time for
(03:43):
me situations yeah but when i graduated from college i was really into working
i was intrigued by working dogs.
I wouldn't say I was even into them because I didn't even know about them for the most part.
We had German Shepherds growing up and interestingly enough,
we did have one that ended up going to become a New Jersey State Police Dog. Yeah.
(04:03):
It was given to us by some folks that we knew, German friends of ours in Virginia.
And it ended up being really more dog than we could even imagine. Yeah.
So we reached out to some folks and they came and evaluated and took him.
And that was, that was kind of my intro, I guess.
So were you training those dogs at home or are they just family pets?
(04:26):
Just basic obedience. Yeah. It's funny.
I remember this is my, my dad's type A personality.
I was 16 years old, didn't have my license for very long.
And he was putting that dog through an obedience course, which was your basic keeler method.
Yeah. Had prong collar and my dad was out of town and he didn't want the dog
(04:46):
to miss. So he sent me in his stead and it was probably the worst possible experience.
And the, how he was big and strong and dog aggressive.
It's just a bad experience, but I think that it gave me, it may be planted a seed, I guess. Yeah.
So when I graduated from college, I wanted to get a Rottweiler and I don't know why a Rottweiler.
(05:13):
I just thought they were cool looking, big, strong, sturdy dogs.
And at that point, there really weren't very many to be found.
It was really before the big craze. So the cool part about that was that you
could find some that still had a lot of good working therapies without having to go far and wide.
So I had some good ones to start with, but I did the basic obedience myself.
(05:36):
And I kind of learned through really reading and actually had a trainer in our
area who trained a dog for me. And I learned a lot from that experience.
And from there, I actually wanted to do some protection work with it.
So I connected with a gentleman who was in a neighboring county who trained
(05:56):
protection dogs and police dogs.
And he had just lost his decoy.
And I was young and athletic enough and fit enough.
And it would amount to an informal apprenticeship for probably two years where
I basically would go about three times a week and work with he and his dogs
(06:19):
and learned a tremendous amount.
Out and he turned me on to the sport of schutzen and i felt
like you know that was a really cool you know
base of knowledge as well because you know
here are these people that are committing all this time and energy and money
to something and they're so incredibly passionate about it so that was a great
(06:39):
experience but it ended up happening is that it got the attention of some of
the local police officers and they started bringing their dogs by because they
had some and issues with engagement.
Body mechanics, overall control.
Some of it was due to the fact that they just didn't have very good dogs.
(07:00):
They were getting a lot of donated dogs, and they just weren't all that good.
But it opened doors for me.
So essentially, there was a new chief in town, and he was looking to make some
changes, and he asked me to evaluate the four teams they had.
And basically, I set up some scenarios that I felt like were failed to them.
(07:20):
And there were two teams that were just really lacking.
And then my recommendation, and I typed it all up for him, four pages of documents.
And I don't know that he was expecting that. So he called me in his office about
two weeks after and offered me a job.
And I said, well, I was working as a mental health professional at the time.
(07:41):
He said, I have a job. I appreciate you wanting to hire me. That's great.
But he said, no, we'll work around your schedule.
So I am beginning my third. This is my 30th year with that agency. Wow. Wow. Wow.
So, when I say I was out of my depth, I was out of my depth.
There's no getting around that.
(08:01):
Yeah. And to this day, there are certain things that you will not see Howard
Young teach. You're not going to find me teaching tactics.
It's just not that I haven't learned things about it.
Yeah, yeah. But I just don't feel like that's my lane and I need to stay in. Sure, sure.
But in terms of procurement of dogs and selection of handlers,
(08:24):
I mean, I've been very much, that's been what I've done for the last 30 years.
We've picked up some agencies along the way and have our local sheriff's office in that group as well.
And I retired as an educator about two and a half years ago.
So with the sole purpose of doing more dog related things. Yeah.
(08:45):
So we're doing a lot of traveling, putting on some decoy schools, detection schools.
So for the first 25 years or so, you were doing this, you know,
in the evening around your other jobs and stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. It was at night. Yeah. Some long, long days. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
It's funny. We would train from six in the evening until 10 at night,
(09:07):
which were four-hour blocks. Yeah.
Which worked well for us because they were very small groups.
Yeah. maximum size would be, you know, four, four teams. And a lot of times it would be two.
So we would get a lot accomplished in those four hours.
And of course, we're not taking any meal breaks. It was relatively uninterrupted
(09:28):
unless, you know, something serious went on and needed to be called into work.
And that was the cool part, too, is that if there was something that needed
to be done, we could break free and go take care of it.
And that's true to this day. Yeah. And so when you first started,
did they give you kind of, you know, almost like carte blanche?
They really did, which is bizarre.
(09:50):
They gave me some resources in terms of I visited another department that the
chief kind of felt like was, he felt like was a good model for me to look at. And it was.
It was very helpful in terms of seeing what was out there.
And then I went to a couple big seminars.
I went to a NAPWADA seminar, a national seminar in Frederick, Maryland at 96.
(10:16):
And that's where I met Franco Angelini. and that those seeds were vital to my
development a guy like that who took an interest in me and you know I.
It's just been, that's just been, you know, phenomenal for me.
Somebody that will speak up for you in situations like that.
(10:39):
Because I will say, I wasn't necessarily greeted with open arms.
Well, that was going to be an extra question. What was the feeling at the agency,
you know, to have a non-sworn person come in and start revamping things?
There was never any question.
You know, sometimes when early on, when I would go out of town,
there would be occasional eyes, you know, eyebrows raised. Like,
(11:00):
and I, you know, for the most part, I just kind of brushed that off. Sure, sure.
I didn't want that to get in my way, but I guess, you know, I didn't feel like
it was as big a concern as maybe some folks might feel like it was.
And again, I wasn't pretending to be something that I wasn't.
Well, yeah, I think once they got to know you, I'm sure that any concern they
(11:21):
had would dissipate seeing that, like, you know, your own words stayed in your lane.
Sure. And now that I'm an old man doing this, I don't get any questions at all.
Yeah. One of the advantages of getting old, I guess. Exactly.
So at first, did you have to go and buy some new dogs?
Yes, that was, we started, this chief recognized the need to begin to buy dogs.
(11:46):
And obviously the quality was much different.
Yeah. And it's really strange. So initially they weren't even,
they weren't interested in detection at all, which was really kind of strange
because in this community, I look back and detection,
mainly narcotic detection, is our bread and butter.
Sure. And there are, the guys are finding dope on, in vehicles and,
(12:10):
and throughout their, their job every night.
So when I look back and thinking that they was just kind of short-sighted on
their part, but once we did get put some detection dogs, we can't imagine.
Yeah. It's funny when people don't know the capabilities and,
you know, kind of like here in our area with, uh, you know, gun and shell casing detection.
(12:31):
I think that'll always be around now once people are exposed to,
to how good it could be. Right.
So did you have trouble finding good dogs then? No, I actually,
there was a gentleman that was fairly local gentleman that was going and getting some nice dogs.
And I'd say I've probably in my, my course of working with these agencies,
(12:53):
I've probably used about a half a dozen vendors.
My last six dogs I have been buying directly from Germany from gotten to know.
And I basically talked to him for about a year and a half before I felt comfortable
enough to go ahead and make a purchase. Yes. Yeah.
I felt like the communication part was really important.
(13:13):
I wanted him to know what I was looking for.
I wanted him to know who I knew. Yeah. So there are some folks that were getting
dogs from him that I know and he knows that we're friends. Yeah.
Just trying to put, you know, all the protections in place. And that's important.
It's a dirty business. So. It is a dirt. It is a dirty business.
(13:34):
But I will say this about the vendors that I've done business with.
Each move was not a move out of feeling disappointment necessarily.
It was maybe trying something a little bit different.
And I say this, that I feel like I could go back to any one of those vendors
(13:54):
today if I really needed to. So there weren't any bridges burned.
It just chose a different direction at that time. Yeah, and I think both of
you, you know, I think it's healthy to maybe shop around a little bit.
I think, you know, both you and I have seen times where maybe an agency stays
with one vendor just too long, you know, and either they get too comfortable
(14:16):
or, you know, the vendor isn't, you know, doing some of the new stuff that people are or whatever.
But it's always healthy to at least shop around and compare and make sure that
you're, you know, getting the latest types of dogs.
Because dogs have changed quite a bit over just the last, I mean,
definitely over 30 years.
But I would say, I don't know, if I put a number on it, it seems like maybe
(14:38):
the last 15 years, I think the dogs, in my opinion, have changed quite a bit.
I don't know about how you feel. Yeah. No, I would definitely agree with that.
I mean, and I think my selection has changed as well. Absolutely. That's a good point.
Good point. The dogs, I think, when I was first getting started,
were primarily German Shepherds. And I would label them today probably a medium drive Shepherd. Yeah.
(15:00):
Not necessarily high drive as compared to some of the males that we're seeing.
And I felt like maybe we got away with some things that we wouldn't get away
with today in terms of our training. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I think that with the younger, high-energy dogs,
(15:21):
we've, you know, my background is heavy compulsion.
And so I have to guard against that, even today. Yeah.
I feel like I have to remind myself, you know, there's probably a better way to do this.
You know, you don't always want to reach for a bigger hammer. Yeah, exactly.
(15:42):
It'd be really nice to get this dog to want.
Well, and that's probably one of the great things about the mows getting very popular.
And then in my opinion, especially the Dutchies, because, you know,
there's most of the Dutchies that I've trained have that, just that hardness
to them that compulsion is not going to work.
So you, you, you have to be a better trainer when you start dealing with those
(16:04):
types of dogs. I agree wholeheartedly. I have one at home.
He's definitely that way.
If you decide you want to, you know, be hard-headed and be handed,
he's going to remind you. That's not a good choice.
Yeah, there's battle of wills that a lot of times they're going to win that battle.
So, going back, you know, you get your first set of dogs and I mean,
(16:28):
there had to be some pressure on you.
You're going out and buying dogs as a new job and stuff.
And then did you get new handlers or did you give those new dogs to the existing handlers?
That group, the original group, stayed in there pretty good.
Then there was some transition. One of the things that just became a reality
(16:48):
about that particular agency is that it's relatively small.
There were always four teams, but it seemed like there was a three-year period
that was, if I could keep a guy on for three years without losing him to another
facet, then things were good.
That's a short period of time. That is a very short period of time because I
(17:10):
firmly believe that a lot of guys don't come into their own until their third year. Oh, exactly.
But there were some guys that ended up staying and getting very invested.
We lost a handler in 2016 to a shooting.
It wasn't a dog-involved shooting, but serving a warrant. And he was somebody
(17:32):
that had been in for 10 years.
And I always made the comment that he was never going to do anything else.
I think that if he was still with us today, day he would have he would have
succumbed to the pressure to become to become a the,
lieutenant yeah yeah yeah but to spade probably would have been a lieutenant
yeah so so you get that those guys up and running obviously have some success
(17:57):
then you start uh you introduced some detection work to them yes yeah and it's
funny i i didn't really i my beginnings were
basically, I convinced them to purchase a detection dog from Von Lick.
And so my beginnings of learning to do detection work was going out there,
(18:19):
observing the training with that dog.
And I felt like we were very particular.
I mean, I was measuring boxes to deciding to come home and make these boxes and make this work.
And I don't know that I, you know, I just kind of gleaned certain things.
So I wouldn't say that even the method that I picked up was necessarily their
(18:40):
method, but for the most part it was my understanding of it anyway. Yeah.
But that's morphed, you know, over the last couple of years as well. Yeah.
And they weren't using any markers at that time or that we were aware of. Yeah.
We were using them. We just didn't know it. That's a good point.
Everybody says they don't use markers. Yes, you do.
(19:02):
There were all kinds of things we were marking. and it might be Velcro on your
pants. It could be anything. Yep, exactly. Exactly. We all use markers.
So then did that stay pretty much the same number of dogs and same number of
handlers over most of the time you've been there? Yes.
That particular agency has always maintained four, but then we picked up the
local sheriff's office and they have five.
(19:23):
So more than doubled your amount of work all of a sudden.
Yes. And then there's been an agency here or there. I did one stint for two years recently,
land it was by design it was to be one year
to get them up and running yeah yeah and to be
self-sufficient and ended up being two years which
was fine yeah and but those four guys were they were commuting at an incredible
(19:47):
distance to come here it was just yeah when you're uh when you get a new dog
with a new handler when you were still working full-time were you just training
every or evening with them getting up through?
We were doing just three nights a week, which doesn't seem like a lot,
but the retention is amazing.
(20:07):
The other part is that because we were training in-house, essentially officers were trained,
Still able to work a relatively uninterrupted schedule.
So nobody was being sent out of town for a number of weeks.
And the beauty of that is that they allowed me to take as much time as I needed.
(20:31):
So we wouldn't put a number of weeks on our course. That's good.
It would be all based on skills acquisition. So, typically what happened is
that we discovered that we could have a dog up and running in detection before
your typical patrol functions.
So, we would get them up and running and get them certified and they'd start
(20:51):
using dogs on the road, but they'd still be in school with me finishing out the patrol function.
And that's pretty much the model that we've used all along.
And some people might think that that sounds, you know, three nights a week.
But, you know, if you're going to compare that to if somebody's working four
tens, but they're in a group of 12 teams, three nights a week when you're doing
(21:12):
one dog, you're getting way more done, actually.
Oh, yeah. To work one dog for four hours.
Yeah. Yeah. You run out of dogs, patients, handlers.
Yeah, you get sick of each other.
For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So it sounds like though,
that they, they've given you a lot of latitude,
(21:33):
you know, to do, to, to become the, the expert, you know, for their,
for their agency, which with the, the quick turnover,
to me, it makes a lot of sense that they've retained you there,
you know, so that you can be the, the one constant and, and,
you know, their, their canine.
It's been a beautiful arrangement from the standpoint that I am not part of
(21:54):
the hierarchy, but yet I have a relationship with all the key people,
including the chief, so...
Well, at this point, you probably remember when the chief was a rookie,
probably. I do. I do. It's funny.
We were at an event recently. It was a citizen's police academy,
and they wanted the canines to do a portion of it.
(22:17):
And I was looking around the room, and I said, there is no one here anymore when I started.
Isn't that crazy? No one. Yeah.
Yeah. That's how it's funny. You know, when you started, you're a rookie cop,
you see the chiefs and it's like, wow, that's a chief.
And then throughout your time, it's like, oh, I kind of remember that guy.
And then by the time you're ready to retire, it's like, oh, I worked with that guy.
(22:41):
It's no longer a chief. It's by his first name. And you remember working a car
with him. So it is a funny transition.
It is a funny. It was also we just recently interviewed Jay Nix on our podcast.
And it's going to come out in a couple of days. But one of the things that we
talked about is investing in people.
And when I look around and I realize that, you know, this is about training
(23:06):
dogs, but it is about so much more.
It's about, and now I'm kind of of the age where a lot of these guys are,
you know, they're younger than my sons.
Yeah. So I feel like it's also my duty to provide them with maybe a little wisdom
and guidance as it relates to basically life in general and decision-making
(23:28):
and getting caught up in things that are of no real consequence.
This too shall pass. They'll get wound up about something. And I'll say,
you guys have no idea how many times this has come up.
Yeah, I've seen it before. and everybody survived.
So when it comes to dog training, you said, you know, that, you know,
(23:50):
like many people, you started out being much more compulsion.
Now, you know, over the years, I think everybody is, you know,
by necessity or education or everything you
know definitely our profession has gotten way way better
about how we train what are some of the big takeaways that you have now like
if you're training a dog that some of the you know the howard young things that
(24:14):
maybe you know as you're traveling you think boy i wish some more people knew
this trick or that trick or these these ideas do you have some of those things
from all your time doing it i'm not sure i quite understand You know,
basically, you know, I mean, I know, you know, some of the things,
some tricks of the trade that you've come up with. Oh, sure, sure.
From doing it for a while. Yeah, I, you know, I just recently did a presentation
(24:37):
at Hold the Line Conference, and it was about what we're going to talk about
in Colorado at the Colorado conference.
But one of the things that's, to me, that's interesting is that there are some
groups, and I think I probably have been guilty of this before,
of making dogs super, super resilient to anything that we're trying to accomplish
(25:00):
that, let's say something like Aldi.
And if you do not have an effective method,
if you haven't chosen something that is going to work pretty consistently with
most dogs, And if it involves compulsion, what typically happens is that somebody
will try something and it doesn't work.
(25:21):
Well, it's making that dog that much better and stronger and resilient.
So they try something else, and it's not as effective either.
And then they try something else, and they try something else,
and they try something else.
And they become really, really good at making that dog learn to fight through
everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
(25:42):
That's a good, good way to, and the good, the analogy is good.
Yeah. They're getting more resilient.
So, I think there are ways now I think I've been guilty maybe of overdoing,
of really overdoing the bite work.
Not that I'm saying it doesn't need to be done, but overdoing it without implementing
some controls along the way. Yep.
(26:04):
And I think that's a great point. And I think that probably comes from some of the background.
Some of the dogs, when you first had them, I remember we had to kind of get
those dogs jazzed up about doing some of it. Right.
And you feel like, well, we got to keep building. We got to keep building.
We got to make that grit better. We got to make it fuller, stronger.
And then what you realize is that you've created this muscle-bound dog that's
(26:29):
just super, super tough and doesn't want to let go. Yeah, and can't think straight
anymore because he's so into the bite work.
Right. Two brain cells, and they're both fighting with each other. Yeah.
And you had mentioned that some of the stuff, what kind of stuff for your classroom
and then for our scenarios out here, what are you going to do?
Well, I feel like one of the things that we've been pretty successful at is
(26:51):
getting dogs prepared for real-world engagement.
Engagement, not being equipment fixated, giving them the pictures necessary
to actually engage someone without any real confusion on the street.
And really, the way I look at that is just providing them with a lot of different pictures.
(27:13):
Obviously, one of those is taking a dog that is neutral in a muzzle and teaching
him how to muzzle fight. There's no visible equipment.
I mean, And I think most people understand that, but also the implementation
of prosthetics if it's done properly.
And I think that's the key. The same situation is with the hidden sleeve.
(27:35):
Because we're dealing with masters of association. They spot the differences very quickly.
Oh, yeah. And once the game is up as it relates to a hidden sleeve or prosthetic,
it's just a piece of equipment.
Exactly, exactly. But if we can set it up so that the dog rounds the corner
and it's low light and it's presented in a way that it looks natural,
(27:58):
then we're going to be able to pull something off that might be pretty special for them.
Yeah, I agree. in terms of bridging that gap. I agree.
But if you're going to take that prosthetic and just wave it around and present
it like a sleeve, the dog is going to treat it like a sleeve. Yep, yep.
I can say that when we've done it properly, I feel for some dogs you can actually sense the difference.
(28:25):
That when they bite it, they go, oh, this is different. This is not our typical game.
That's been my experience. So when they bite that prosthetic the first time,
it's very much like where I've seen a dog on their first street bite.
A lot of times they'll bite it once and then kind of half-ass let go and then
re-bite. Like this doesn't seem right, but it's fun.
(28:45):
So you can use that moment to kind of encourage the dog and show them that,
like you say, that picture.
But what if you were training with somebody and they told you they use the prosthetic
every training day? I'm assuming you'd discourage that.
Oh, I would, for sure. We use it very sparingly. Yeah.
It's not something that we do very often, but every once in a while we'll throw it in. Yeah.
(29:09):
Try to catch the dog off guard and find a safe way to do it.
And then, I know you had mentioned, you know, it was part of your title of your
class is Control to Effective Engagement.
So, how much control do you want to put on, especially a new dog when they're hitting the street?
Well, I have an expectation that this is just me personally,
(29:32):
and I have nothing against folks that want to.
Physically take a dog off strong i don't have
an objection to that but i feel like if i'm going to go through
the the trouble to teach a dog to
out i have an expectation yeah yeah so when
we when we're training we don't typically take
dogs off strong we expect we expect
(29:53):
them to out so of course you know
you learn by learn by doing that there are certain
situations that are created going to be
more difficult for a dog to want to out yeah yeah same
reason with any dog that's super super possessive of
a toy like they that could figure out the two ball game pretty quickly yeah
but if they've had to hunt and work for that toy and then they get it and now
(30:17):
you're going to walk them back to the car and then take it from them that's
that for some dogs that's different yeah i worked for this it's mine i'm possessing
it and i'm not just going to give it
up because i know the game's over yeah yeah so we do have an expectation that they out now,
there are some sorts of situations i know guys will take a dog off strong and
(30:38):
i don't i don't object to that yeah but i also there have been situations that
i know dogs have been deployed and there's no way the handler could get to exactly
exactly safely yeah and we rely on that help,
Yeah, and I think there's a
lot of, I think, thought process anymore that the out's not as important.
(30:58):
And I firmly believe it's a critical skill.
But I guess what I'm asking about control too is you're not putting...
A dog out there like i've heard this theory and
you know i've never talked about it but it's never been my theory i've heard
the theory that people want dogs to be pretty dirty when
they get out on the street with very little control because then
(31:19):
they they'll most likely and you know effectively engage
a suspect and then they put more control later after they
have a few street bites i've never bought into that theory i'm
assuming that's not something that no i don't i
really haven't bought into that theory i i do there have
been situations if i'm going to be completely honest we've had
failures sure absolutely and i i don't feel
(31:40):
like that's talked about enough i know that
for for a novice handler going through a school and they're
seeing the dog bite bite bite they're seeing the bite equipment for
the most part there's an accidental bite but
and then the first time that dog fails they're absolutely
devastated yep yep and they're and
they shouldn't be devastated disappointed yes yeah
(32:03):
but but there should be at.
Least in understanding that most of the time selection
is right that it's probably the
fact that the dog was confused he didn't understand what he
was supposed to do yeah and i just did a podcast kind of talk about that
and i got a lot of really good feedback from from people you
know on the same thing because you know there's either
(32:24):
you know people that have done this for a long time there's either guys who
have had failures or there's guys who lie and say they didn't have them because
there's no there's not anybody who hasn't had dogs do some weird stuff you know
at the worst possible time sure i think what what happened it's it's certainly damaging to them.
Yeah absolutely then it gets out and if the shift buys
(32:46):
into this this notion that the dog won't engage
yep then they feel like they're fighting an uphill battle
yeah yeah absolutely but
i you know i think again you know just about proper preparation you
know hopefully the dog does well and then part of my
training a lot of times is that i you know try and get
them to do crisis this rehearsal in their mind that what happens
(33:08):
when the dog runs next to the guy as he's running down the street because it
could happen you know you just don't know until you've
been there you don't know for sure with each dog and i've seen some some dogs
that eventually get to be complete man-eaters that had trouble at first you
know and yeah and i think really for the dogs that we really want on the street
i mean i know you and i've both seen dogs over the years that you know You know,
(33:31):
you get them out of the kennel, they're ready to eat everybody.
And we would, you know, you could get some control on them, but stay back, you know.
And those dogs didn't have that many failures because the first human being
they find is going to get bit.
But those aren't the kind of dogs that should be out on the street now.
We need a lot more control and professionalism and everything else.
(33:52):
I agree. You know, I…,
Well, the liability aspect, for sure. Yeah. If I can eliminate those dogs from
my selection, I certainly do. Yeah.
I would have probably at one point was guilty of maybe wanting a little bit of that in our room.
Oh, yeah. I think of some of the dogs I bought in the past, and it's like,
(34:14):
man, I wouldn't buy that dog today.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I even just recently kind of learned that a little bit
because for my detection dogs,
even my bomb dogs, I like really, really high drive, busy, busy dogs that are,
you know, and I have some luck because a lot of times when I go to a kennel,
(34:34):
people have turned down the dogs I want.
And I've somehow, somehow I find a way to find some of the craziest,
even labs that are just over the top drive because it's what I want.
And I recently selected a dog for an agency and it wasn't a usual,
you know, all my friends here around here said, oh, that's not a Jeff Meyer
dog because the dog was pretty, pretty dialed in.
(34:56):
And I kind of learned something there because for the agency and for where the
dog's working and how much training they're getting, it's just a perfect dog.
And if there would have been a Jeff Meyer dog available there,
I probably would have taken some crazy dog, and that handler would probably be having trouble now.
So it's a learning game for sure, always trying to figure out what you can do better.
(35:16):
And the next time I buy a detection dog, I'll probably try and middle it a little
bit instead of finding the craziest dog possible.
What's funny, I think I had this conversation with somebody recently about how nuanced things are.
And I thought that he actually used the term nuanced. nuanced i
thought that it that makes i think that is the perfect
term because you could give somebody a
(35:39):
template about regarding what to do and they
probably can't do it the same way they they may not be able to do it as well
but they may do it better they may focus in on yeah an element of it that is
that you missed yeah and they but perhaps they've spent too much time working
on a particular Like this whole notion of control.
(36:03):
I feel like if you, if you go too far in without implementing some control,
you, you could be facing a really difficult experience.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You're going to build the dog up too much.
So then we're going to classroom stuff and then do some scenario stuff.
Are you, are you already thinking of what kind of scenario stuff you want to do when you're out here?
I am thinking of some things, definitely some things with the prosthetic,
(36:28):
definitely some things with the muzzle. Yeah.
And I know there's some other folks that I know Steve will, he's got some stuff.
Oh, absolutely. I think it'd be, and that's why I'm really looking forward to it.
Cause I got, you know, such a wide amount of knowledge coming out here that
I think, you know, I'm going to be jealous I don't have a dog to kind of go
through some of these scenarios because they're fun.
(36:48):
You know, challenging scenarios should be fun and everybody should,
you know, do well on some and maybe not quite as well and leave a little bit
better than when they came.
That's, you know, we should be fun about it.
Well, I'm looking forward to it. I think it will be fun.
Yeah. And tell us a little bit more about the other stuff you got going on.
You got your new company that you said you started a couple of years ago. Yes.
(37:09):
2018, we started White Beard Canine. And so that agency that I've worked with
for so long essentially resigned my position, and now I contract services.
The great part is nothing's changed.
The relationships are the things that are important about that. Yeah, yeah.
It's given me, it's funny, it's given me a lot more freedom.
(37:32):
Sure. Whereas I'm willing to go invest more in myself for additional training.
Whereas before I was kind of felt like I was waiting for the agency to pay for it.
Yeah. And now I just, that first year, that 2018, I went to four very significant
workshops that really changed a lot of my thinking.
(37:54):
Each one of those folks was, were using condition reinforcers and markers.
Yeah. and for for a lot of different things not just detection and it really
kind of opened my eyes and changed some things and created some you know some
good working relationships with some of those people and,
So yeah, we're, we're staying busy. Yeah. As busy as we want to be. Yeah. Yeah. I get that.
(38:19):
You're doing seminars. People can contact you through White Beard Canine and
hire you to do a seminar if they want.
They certainly can. I do a lot of the decoy seminars. I bring a gentleman with
me who's, who's young and talented.
And I just, you know, if I'm being realistic, realistic with myself,
there's certain things I, you're not going to find me rolling around on the
(38:40):
ground with a dog anymore.
More i do good just to get back up without the dog
sure and then
your podcast tell us about that yes working dog
depot i do that with buddy of mine rich harden
rich has got a incredible resume and it's been a dog guy for a long time he's
done lots of things with dogs and he approached me about doing podcasts several
(39:06):
years ago and we we made an attempt and we failed miserably,
because we just didn't have any clue what we were doing.
We made a second attempt and it stuck.
So we just published our 38th episode and we're into our second year. Nice. Yeah.
I'll put the link to that in case people, I'm sure people already found it,
(39:28):
but I'll put the link there and stuff on there.
How did you and Rich meet over the years? We used to attend a seminar in Sevierville,
Tennessee every year at the same year.
Year it was a street survival seminar and rich was
working for cobra canine at the time so he
was doing helping with the training of the navy seal program and we just kind
(39:50):
of struck up a friendship and remained friends and it was funny when he called
and he told me that he was starting he wanted to do a podcast and i said that's
great let me know how that turns out and he said no i I want to do it with you. I said, oh, okay.
I guess I will know. Are you sure?
It's been a good experience. As you know, it can be a lot of fun.
(40:14):
Yeah, it's a little bit of work, but I enjoy it. That's why I just started up
this one after I left my last company. So it is good.
So I think that's quite a bit of stuff to talk about you.
And I'm looking forward to, you know, it's about two months away here to the
Colorado Canine Conference. So it should be a good event.
I'll put information about that in our show notes too if you want to check it
(40:37):
out and maybe come out. We still have spots available.
So it should be fun. And I thank you for taking the time today to get on.
I think I'll probably bring you back on here real soon.
And maybe we'll get into some real meat and potatoes and some real specific
training ideas if you'd like to do that.
Sure. That sounds fun. I appreciate it. All right. Thank you.
(40:57):
All right, that's going to wrap it up with our conversation with Howard Young.
And I wanted to also end the show talking again about Bob Eden and Katz.
You've been hearing me talk about it all year. He's a supporter of this show,
and I sure appreciate all the support that he's given this show.
So check out katzplatinum.com. If you need record-keeping advice or you just
(41:18):
want to kind of figure out if Katz Platinum is something for you, check out the website.
He's got a free trial where you can really play with it. it,
see how customizable it is, and just check it out.
They've been doing record keeping longer than anybody.
Bob kind of originated the concept and he keeps perfecting it year in and year out.
So check out catsplatinum.com. And finally, I want to thank Ray Allen again.
(41:42):
Ray Allen's going to be our lead sponsor at the Colorado Canine Conference.
And they're here in Colorado and they're also a supporter of the show.
So Ray Allen is just a quality company. They have quality products,
but it's backed by quality people.
And you see it when you, you know, when you get the products,
you know, their quality.
If you ever have any problem with any of the products, they will work with you.
(42:03):
They, they stand behind all of their stuff.
They're easy to work with. Their shipping is quick. Their products are good.
So check out Ray Allen manufacturing or rayallen.com, rayallencanine.com.
I really like their products. I mentioned a lot of times that I like the,
The muzzles that they have, one of the very best, but they have lots of good products.
So check out RayAllenCanine.com, and I thank them for both sponsoring this show
(42:27):
and sponsoring the Colorado Canine Conference.
Thanks for listening, everybody. Have a safe week.
Music.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.