January 30, 2023 • 29 mins
Sarah shares her fascinating life and questions how she fits into the LGBTIQA+ acronym and why she has previously not felt "queer enough." Unpacking her previous relationships and her desire to drop in emotionally now, she shares a beautifully articulate recount of how she got to where she is and what she has learnt so far. Trigger warning: if this episode has raised any concerns for you, please reach out for support from Switchboard on 1800 184 527 or for AOD support Touchbase on 1800 906 669
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
- Trigger warning, thisepisode contains adult content
and may be distressing for some listeners.
Pride Across the Ages is acollaborative project to amplify
and celebrate the voices of LGBTQIA+
living in Central Victoria.
All episodes were recordedon Dja Dja Wurrung land
and respectfully recognize
that First Nationssovereignty was never ceded.
(00:23):
This always was and alwayswill be Aboriginal land.
(uplifting music)
(00:45):
- My name is Sarah.
I was born in Sydney in Australia in 1985.
I am queer and pansexual
and my pronouns are she, her, they, them.
My childhood was very suburban.
I grew up in middle class,white suburban Canberra
(01:08):
and my parents were togetheralthough not particularly happy
and it was very privileged
in the sense that I grewup in the same house
for my whole childhood fromwhen I was six to when I was 18.
And I know a lot ofpeople don't have that.
So in some respects I hada strong sense of place
and connection to place actually
(01:29):
and a really strong connectionto the natural world
a really strong connectionto the plants and the trees
where I was growing up.
And so I spent a lotof time down the creek
and hanging out with the environment.
When I was about 10 to 12
we had the endangered speciesclub, so that was cute.
I have a younger brotherand a younger sister
and when I look back I feel
(01:51):
like I know there's nothing normal
but it just looks like a very normal,
nothing to write home about childhood.
I was a pretty happy, outgoing kid.
I was also undiagnosed ADHD.
So when I look back now,
I recognize a lot of thestruggles that I had,
the learning disabilitiesand the relationships
(02:11):
I have with teachers were because of that.
And there's actually a lot to reflect on
now that I've been diagnosed as ADHD
and how that impacted me as a child.
The gender roles around me
were played out very heteronormative.
My dad worked full-time, hewas in the defense force.
He didn't cook, he's a really good man,
(02:32):
he provided for the family.
And my mom was a stay-at-home mom
for the most part of our life.
And she did all of thehousework, all of the cleaning,
all of the raising ofus in the tricky parts
like the bringing down of the boundaries.
And my dad just did the fun things
and whenever we had to ask a question,
I'd go to my dad and be like,
(02:52):
"Dad, can I go play in the mud?"
"Ask your mother."
She was the maker of the rules.
Nowhere in my childhood or inmy adolescence, to be honest,
did I have any differencesin gender exemplified to me.
I didn't see any examples
of any differentiation ingender or in sexuality.
Had a very heteronormativechildhood and all of the examples
(03:15):
of people in my life wereheteronormative as well.
So I guess that felt to melike that was what was normal
and I didn't question it, Ididn't seek anything different.
Yeah, and that felt to me just normal.
That's the way it was.
I didn't know anythingabout the LGBTQIA+ community
as a child or as an adolescent.
(03:38):
As an adolescent, I dranka lot and partied a lot.
And I think I used drugs and alcohol
as a way to explore and express.
And if I look back now,
I think I look at it as an opportunity
like I used to makeout with my girlfriends
and but only when we were ever drunk
and then we would never talk about it.
And I look back now and I recognize
(03:59):
that I was using those asa way to express myself.
I had this desire insideof myself to express
and to be promiscuous and to explore.
And I didn't know that was allowed.
But when everyone wasdrunk, everything's allowed
and we don't rememberanything the next day.
And so I feel that was the first inklings
(04:19):
of my explorations.
But it wasn't until much later
that I started actuallyexploring queerness within myself
and having relationships withpeople of the same sex as me.
(uplifting music)
When did I find the LGBTQIA+ community?
(04:43):
I feel like I'm still finding it
and I'm still finding it within myself.
And it's interestingbecause when I was preparing
to come on this podcast and I was thinking
about my sexual orientation
and the fact that I identifyas pansexual and realized,
no one ever in my life has ever asked me
what my sexuality is.
And I don't know ifthat's because that's rude
(05:04):
and we don't do that,
or if it's because I'm assumed hetero,
I've had a lot more hetero relationships
than I have same sex or different genders.
And so I felt, yeah, I feelsome sadness around that
and I feel some interestingfeelings inside of myself
with a sense of not being queer enough
and where do I fit in?
And I was looking atthat, and it's good though
(05:26):
to look at the LGBTQIA+because I'm literally in there.
I'm in the middle, I'm a Q.
And it took me a long time
to really understandwhat that meant for me.
And I think I'm still exploringwhat that means for me
because it changes, it's not defined,
it's not solid and it's not stable.
And I think it's reallyimportant for me to remember that
(05:47):
because I do fit thereand I do belong there.
Yeah, it's still an explorationand still a learning.
And I remember my firstrelationship with a woman
was we met at a festival,
at an all women's festival actually.
And it was insaneattraction at first sight.
And we decided that we would get married
(06:09):
at a festival in amonth's time after that,
even though we hadn't evenstarted dating at this point.
This was just a silly littleflirtatious exploration.
Oh, my gosh, and we really went there.
We then started datingand it was the most insane
and physical attraction that I've ever had
with anyone possibly.
And it was interesting too,because I was in a relationship
(06:30):
with a man at the same time as well.
So I was navigating polyamory,
I was navigating my firstrelationship with a woman
and I was in my Saturn return, I was 27.
Life was really big and really exciting
and I was really pushingthe edges of my identity
and my experience andreally wanting to go there.
(06:51):
I was like, "This is my timeto learn everything possible
"and do everything possible."
So it was very exciting.
And we did have a very overthe top actual wedding,
like it was supposed to be a sort of joke,
a sort of doof wedding,but it was really real
and really special.
And on the day, people justcame out of the woodworks.
Even my partner had a bridal party.
(07:12):
I was walked down to thedance floor by two people.
There was a celebrant, someoneplayed the didgeridoo for us.
And someone gave us this giant crystal
that was the size of my arm
(laughing) and was so happy for us.
And actually, I think wewere both really high on acid
but it was real, like it was so extra
(07:33):
and it was so over thetop and it was so fun
and it was real, and itis just a fun memory.
And I still have peoplecome up to me at festivals,
"Are you the woman that gotmarried at this festival?"
And I was like, "Yeah,that was me, that was us."
That was my first step into,I guess, the queer community
(07:53):
or having a relationship withsomeone the same sex as me.
And it was a rollercoaster,that's for sure.
I have these ideas and I don'tknow where they come from
of what queer is, thatit looks like something
or that I have to be wearingan oversized pastel jumper
with like big gloves and have short hair
and be a certain way or be an activist.
(08:15):
I have so much respect for people
in the queer space who are activists
and really speaking out,and I don't do that.
I don't dress a particular way.
And for some reason in my mind
I feel like I'm not queer enough
which is ridiculous and I'mgoing to move through that.
But I think it's great to identify this
because I imagine that a lot of people
have a similar experience
and therefore, I'm not sure what impact
(08:36):
that is having on my life, but it's there.
And so I would like to move through that.
So that relationshiplasted for nine months.
At the same time I wasliving with a male partner
and we didn't see each otheras much as we would like
and it didn't burn out that quickly
but it was super intense
(08:57):
and it never reallylanded within ourselves.
We never really landed ina deeper emotional place.
I think it was novelty forboth of us in some ways
and definitely for me.
And I felt in a waythere was this novelty,
and perhaps because Iwas questioning myself
or perhaps because I hadsome internalized homophobia
going on as well and someself-judgment around that as well,
(09:20):
and I was navigating a lot.
I was in two relationships
and I was really in love with this woman,
and at the same time stillfinding this electricity
that never settled and wewere having a wild time.
We were going to lots offestivals and lots of nightclubs.
And so a lot of our relationship
was centered around big experiences.
(09:40):
We weren't alone that much together.
So I decided that therelationship was over.
I think for me, therewas a big age difference.
I am five years older and in our 20s,
that was quite a dramatic difference.
And so while the physicalattraction was really strong
and the love was really strong,
it felt like the stageof life was incompatible
(10:03):
and that it wasn't going to work for me.
And also it was so much trauma between us
and in the end I just needed to step back
and focus on my onerelationship that I was in.
But it was really hard
because it was one ofthose relationships where,
and I still love her so much,
where you love someone so much,
(10:24):
but it's almost doesn't make sense
where you're like, "I don't know why?"
Especially because it was myfirst relationship as a woman,
I was like, I don't knowwhy I love you so much
that I wanna squish youinto a tiny little ball.
And I would try and rationalizeit and it doesn't work.
And sometimes that love isn't enough
to make a relationship work,
(10:46):
and it didn't and it was chaotic.
And so I needed to step away, and I did.
And it was sad, but itwas the right thing to do.
And we're still friends.
We've supported each other over the years.
That's the only relationshipI've had with a woman.
I'm dating a woman at the moment,
(11:08):
and we dated a couple of yearsago and we're dating again,
which is exciting and nice,
and I don't know exactly where it's going
but we are just taking things slow.
I think last time it was super physical
and that was exciting and electric.
And this time I've recognized
that I want to drop inon an emotional level.
(11:31):
And maybe because of my lastrelationship with the woman,
we didn't get to thatdeeper emotional level,
but it feels important tome now many years later.
That is something that we share together
as a deep emotionalconnection before we move
into all of the hotness that can be had.
And I think for me now,
it's important to havean emotional connection
if I'm going to have real intimacy.
(11:52):
Like I can do physical intimacy
with someone I don't havean emotional connection with
but it's not interesting, it's not deep,
it doesn't feel connective.
So for me now in my relationships,
it's important for meto have a level of trust
and a level of safety and alevel of emotional connection
and ability to communicate
in order to be in a space of intimacy
(12:12):
and for it to feel rich and delicious.
Yeah, is much moresatisfying when that's there.
I think when I speak about trust,
I'm speaking about theability to feel safe
in a relationship.
I trust that you are going to listen
to my know and respect it.
I trust that when I ask foryou to do something different,
(12:34):
you'll be able to hear me.
It's basically having asense of trust in the person
that I can drop my layers andfeel safe in the connection.
(uplifting music)
I am still, if someone lookedfrom an outside perspective,
(12:55):
I appear polyamorous.
I don't necessarily identifywith the term polyamorous
because I feel like itthen puts me into a box,
a polyamorous box.
At the moment, I am relating,
I was in a relationship with a man,
he's beautiful and I lovehim and he's my best friend,
and we were in a relationshipfor three years recently.
(13:17):
And I wanted to have children
and he tried to want tohave children with me,
but ultimately he didn't.
And we ended the relationship as it was
but we still love each other so much.
We care about each other.
We sleep together occasionally.
He has other lovers andhas since discovered
that he's a relationship anarchist,
which he is his favoritetopic at the moment. (laughs)
(13:38):
And he talks about it a what to me,
about what it means to him tobe a relationship anarchist.
And he's really found something
in that for him, which is awesome.
And for him that's having friendships
that are emotionally connectiveand deep and multilayered
and relating with friendsin different ways,
(13:59):
whether that's sexual orhaving a tactile relationship.
And it's non hierarchical.
I'm open to different forms of relating.
I think at this stage of my life,
I'd really like to have amonogamous relationship.
And at the same time, I'mquite scared of monogamy.
I'm scared of it notbeing interesting enough.
I'm scared of getting bored.
(14:21):
I have ADHD, so I have atendency to get bored easily.
And also with ADHD
comes something calledrejection sensitive dysphoria.
So with that, it can appear like boredom.
But what I'm starting to recognize
as I do more research on this
is that it's actuallymy fear of rejection,
(14:43):
that means I'm going tostep out sooner than I would
because I'm afraid of being rejected.
And as I look back on relationships
and the way that they've ended,
which has been always with me,
I wonder how much ofthat really is rejection
sensitive dysphoria andme backing out sooner
than maybe I needed or wanted to
(15:03):
from a place of fear thatmasked itself as boredom
and just gave me no feelingsat all towards that person.
So that's interesting to reflect on.
But in terms of the way I relate,
I'm just open to lots ofdifferent types of relating
and also working with theperson I'm in relationship with.
(15:23):
So if the person I'm inrelationship with at the moment
as we move towards potentiallysomething more serious,
I will consider wherethey're at and what they want
and that will influence how I relate
and whether I relatewith other people or not.
But I'm not attached to anyparticular way of relating.
I'm not attached to beinglike I am polyamorous
(15:44):
or I am a relationship anarchist
but I do not necess...
Do I believe in monogamy?
It looks nice, (laughs) it looks nice,
and I want to want it.
And at the same time, Ijust really strongly feel
like I can't own...
I'm not saying that monogamous people own
other people's bodies,
but I just feel like I cannot tell you
(16:06):
what you can and can't do with your body
if you're in a relationship with me.
And if you want to dosomething with your body
with somebody else,and that's true for you
and we're honest about it,
that feels like howcould I tell someone no?
How could I be like, "I'msorry, that makes me feel bad,
"you can't have that experience."
That doesn't feel correct to me.
(16:27):
So whether that makes menon-monogamous or not,
I don't know.
And just to add onto that,I am at a point in my life
where I am seeking monogamy,
and monogamy in a radical sense.
So there's this term thatI heard, radical monogamy,
and it speaks to choosing monogamy not
(16:47):
because it's the default
and not because whatsociety has told us to do
but because we've lookedat all of our options
and explored what's available
and thought, "I'm goingto commit to one person
"and that's what I choose to do."
So I'm at a point in my lifenow where I'm ready for that
and I'm excited about that.
(uplifting music)
(17:08):
I do feel like my perceptionsof the queer community
have held me at arm's length
and inhibited me from joining in.
I'm not sure what I would joinin, I'm in a queer book club.
I don't go to any of the events
but I've watched the messagesroll through on my messenger
(laughs) and, but I do I feellike there's an identity there
(17:29):
and something that I need to work through
but I don't feel like I fit the mold.
And that has stopped me fromfeeling a sense of belonging
that I would want to feel.
I don't necessarily feellike I need to belong.
I don't cry at night
because I don't fit intothe queer community.
(17:49):
And there's not times whereI feel like I'm not allowed.
Actually, that's not true at all.
I was invited on a queerquest and a vision quest
and I questioned, I've actuallyquestioned a lot in my life.
"Am I queer enough to do that?
"Are you sure you aretalking to the right person?"
And I was asked recently
if I would facilitate a queer quest.
(18:10):
I was like, "I dunno,are they gonna trust me?
"Are they gonna believe I'm queer enough?"
And yeah, I think itis a common experience
and I've been speaking topeople about it very recently.
And I also wanna recognizethat there is a privilege
in passing as hetero and notfully identifying as queer.
And especially not untilmy very later life,
(18:31):
it wasn't a question for meas a child or an adolescent.
I didn't question my sexuality.
I never actually questioned my sexuality.
I never sat there and go, "Is this not,"
it was just like I was attracted to women
and so then I would date women.
And I think it actuallyonly became questions for me
when I became attracted togender non-binary people
(18:55):
or trans people.
And then I started
to have some internalized stigma come up
and I had to question inmyself, what's going on there,
and start to work throughsome things for myself.
But I have never actuallyreally given my queerness
much of a thought, to be honest.
So I don't feel excluded.
(19:16):
And at the same time Iwant to feel included.
So there's a little bitof a division inside of me
in how I feel about that.
(uplifting music)
Do I think that society is more accepting
of LGBTQIA+ people now than in the past?
(19:36):
Absolutely, and I want to acknowledge
that's because so manyqueer, gay, trans people
put their lives on the line tofight for their human rights
and to fight for marriageequality and just to be seen.
So I live in a veryprivileged time where A,
(19:57):
I'm privileged because I pass as hetero
and I'm white and many otherways that I receive privilege,
but also that to be aqueer person in this time
is a lot easier for me thanit has been in previous ages.
I definitely feel so muchmore ease though with men,
like having been withmore men over my life
(20:18):
and I'm a sex worker and I work with men,
so there's just thisnaturalness and this ease
when I'm flirting with aman or interacting with one.
And I love being withanyone other than men
because there's this naturalness
and this innocence that comes through
(20:38):
and also because it's verydifferent to my work life.
Like I'm used to a particular body
and touching a particulartype of body a lot
and being touched by aparticular type of body.
So when I'm with someonewho's not a cis-man,
there's a real beauty and innocence
and I feel like a teenager,and I don't know how to flirt
(20:58):
or what to do when Itry and talk to women.
And it's cute and excitingand just different
and I think reallyimportant for me as well.
And I don't know why, but forsome reason it feels important
in terms of my work and mywork being mostly with men.
It feels like a point of difference
and that I absolutelydon't do it on purpose.
(21:20):
But it feels like if I'm dating a woman,
it's so different to myexperience of working with men
and especially becausemy work is so intimate
and it takes a lot of me
and asks a lot of my personal nature.
And I think something that I really love
(21:41):
about being with a woman is it does,
it differentiates my intimatelife so much from my work life
because my work life is so intimate
and I'm having these intimatephysical experiences with men.
Sometimes when I'm withmen in my personal life,
it can bleed over and I canfind myself playing the role
of the sex worker or playingthe role of I'm leading
(22:02):
or I have a role even to play in intimacy.
And I really try and checkmyself and not do that
but even having to check myself
and not do that can be tiring.
And when I'm with someone ofa different sex or gender,
it feels like I don't have to do that.
I'm a lot less experienced.
And having that life ofexperience is actually really nice
(22:24):
because so often I feel like I'm the one
with more experience in physical intimacy
and so it's nice
and relaxing to not feelthat and nerve wracking.
And I like feeling nervous about intimacy.
It's cute and spicy, yeah.
(uplifting music)
(22:48):
So I came to Mount Alexander.
I had been living in Melbourne
for seven years prior to that
and I never thought I wouldlive in a city for that long.
I never thought I wouldlive in a city at all.
I'd been living all overthe world before that
and immediately before thatI'd been living in Aubrey,
which is a smallish town on the Murray
(23:10):
and I just needed to leavethe sound of the city
was getting so loud nomatter where I went,
it was just this constantthrumming on my being.
And I just knew that I needed to leave
and I wasn't sure where it would be.
I thought, oh, maybeWarrandyte or maybe Belgrave.
And then a friend slashcolleague of mine at the time
(23:34):
made a joke and said,
"I'm starting a share house in Guildford.
"You should come and move in."
And I said, "Yes,"
and I am a spontaneousperson and I do things.
And she was a little taken aback
and I'm not sure if she actuallymeant it or not (laughs).
We're best friends now, by the way.
So it all worked out well.
And so I did, I just, next week I came up
(23:56):
and had a look at thehouse and it was beautiful
on two acres on a hill lookingover, I could see Tarrengower
and Leanganook and Lak from my bedroom.
And it was such a stunning place.
And so I just, very quickly and easily,
(24:16):
made the move out here.
I've been out here for fouryears now and I love it.
I feel, I love the sense of community
a real sense of community
in the sense that I'm in community
with people I wouldn't be friends with.
And I think there'sreal growth points there
and that's what real community is
as opposed to a community that's based on,
(24:36):
like my Melbourne communityare very homogenous
in the sense that ifit's the dance community
or the festival community,
it's people that are incommunity based on shared values,
and while that is true inmany of the communities
in Castleman, in Mount Alexander Shire,
there's also more people in there
because they live in the area,
(24:57):
not just because we share values
and then we have to navigatelife together in that sense.
And something I like about living here too
is the multi-generational aspect.
I have friends who are intheir 70s and we go out,
a friend of mine wasgoing to India recently
and we went to the pubfor his going away party.
And there were people in their early 20s
through to their 70s.
(25:18):
And it's not, that's family,this is our friendship group.
And it's so nice.
And I had a friend from Melbourne visiting
and he was perplexed.
He was like, "This is interesting,
"I don't see this in Melbourne."
And it was literally,
I think we didn't have anyone in their 50s
but we had someonerepresenting different ages,
and it's really nice.
(25:39):
I feel like more and more,
I am in a place where I'mliving my authentic self
and also being presentto myself as I change
and as I age and navigating that,
but I definitely do feel that.
And I don't think I've ever really felt
too much of a problem withauthenticity honestly,
(26:00):
except for when I get told,I'm too loud or too much
or too over the top andI need to tone it down,
and then I have spent sometime trying to navigate
how to be my authentic self in a way
that other people feel comfortable.
I've had lots of conversations
and lots of thoughts about this
because it is important to me
(26:21):
that other people feel comfortable.
I'm not of the vein, likeeveryone can just go get stuffed.
I'm me, and whatever that means
is you have to work around it.
I don't think that's fair.
If someone's going tobe very uncomfortable
because I'm expressingmyself in a particular way,
then I wanna check that,
because maybe in that particular space
for that particular personI don't need to do that.
And I think there's a maturity in that,
(26:42):
and it's a knowing ofmyself that I don't have to,
my authenticity doesn'tmean saying everything
I think all the time andbeing unapologetically me
because I actually care about other people
and I care about their comfortability
but not to sacrifice myself.
But there are times that are appropriate
(27:04):
for me to be the big, wild,crazy, epic yelling Sarah,
and there are times forme to sit back and listen.
And I've gotten to a point nowwhere I know the difference
and I can assess the scene and see
what version of myself is needed
and appropriate in thatmoment and be that.
(inspiring music)
(27:41):
- This project was made possible
with the financial assistance
of Victoria's PrideRegional Activation Program
and Midsumma Festival.
And with the support of theMount Alexander Shire Council,
the Mount Alexander Shire,LGBTIQA+ Steering Group,
and the and Now RadioProgram on MAINfm 94.9.
This podcast has been producedby the Queer and Now team
(28:03):
Sherene Clow & AmalieO'Hara at MAINfm 94.9.
Editing and original music by Amy Chapman.
A big thank you to all participants
for sharing their stories
with such a wonderfulgenerosity of spirit.
If anything within this episodehas been upsetting for you,
please reach out and callthe dedicated LGBTIQA+
(28:24):
helpline switchboard on 1800 184 527,
or Lifeline on 13 11 14,
or kids helpline 1800 551 800.
(gentle music)
- Trigger warning, thisepisode contains adult content
and may be distressing for some listeners.
Pride Across the Ages is acollaborative project to amplify
and celebrate the voices of LGBTQIA+
living in Central Victoria.
All episodes were recordedon Dja Dja Wurrung land
and respectfully recognize
that First Nationssovereignty was never ceded.
(00:23):
This always was and alwayswill be Aboriginal land.
(uplifting music)
(00:45):
- My name is Sarah.
I was born in Sydney in Australia in 1985.
I am queer and pansexual
and my pronouns are she, her, they, them.
My childhood was very suburban.
I grew up in middle class,white suburban Canberra
(01:08):
and my parents were togetheralthough not particularly happy
and it was very privileged
in the sense that I grewup in the same house
for my whole childhood fromwhen I was six to when I was 18.
And I know a lot ofpeople don't have that.
So in some respects I hada strong sense of place
and connection to place actually
(01:29):
and a really strong connectionto the natural world
a really strong connectionto the plants and the trees
where I was growing up.
And so I spent a lotof time down the creek
and hanging out with the environment.
When I was about 10 to 12
we had the endangered speciesclub, so that was cute.
I have a younger brotherand a younger sister
and when I look back I feel
(01:51):
like I know there's nothing normal
but it just looks like a very normal,
nothing to write home about childhood.
I was a pretty happy, outgoing kid.
I was also undiagnosed ADHD.
So when I look back now,
I recognize a lot of thestruggles that I had,
the learning disabilitiesand the relationships
(02:11):
I have with teachers were because of that.
And there's actually a lot to reflect on
now that I've been diagnosed as ADHD
and how that impacted me as a child.
The gender roles around me
were played out very heteronormative.
My dad worked full-time, hewas in the defense force.
He didn't cook, he's a really good man,
(02:32):
he provided for the family.
And my mom was a stay-at-home mom
for the most part of our life.
And she did all of thehousework, all of the cleaning,
all of the raising ofus in the tricky parts
like the bringing down of the boundaries.
And my dad just did the fun things
and whenever we had to ask a question,
I'd go to my dad and be like,
(02:52):
"Dad, can I go play in the mud?"
"Ask your mother."
She was the maker of the rules.
Nowhere in my childhood or inmy adolescence, to be honest,
did I have any differencesin gender exemplified to me.
I didn't see any examples
of any differentiation ingender or in sexuality.
Had a very heteronormativechildhood and all of the examples
(03:15):
of people in my life wereheteronormative as well.
So I guess that felt to melike that was what was normal
and I didn't question it, Ididn't seek anything different.
Yeah, and that felt to me just normal.
That's the way it was.
I didn't know anythingabout the LGBTQIA+ community
as a child or as an adolescent.
(03:38):
As an adolescent, I dranka lot and partied a lot.
And I think I used drugs and alcohol
as a way to explore and express.
And if I look back now,
I think I look at it as an opportunity
like I used to makeout with my girlfriends
and but only when we were ever drunk
and then we would never talk about it.
And I look back now and I recognize
(03:59):
that I was using those asa way to express myself.
I had this desire insideof myself to express
and to be promiscuous and to explore.
And I didn't know that was allowed.
But when everyone wasdrunk, everything's allowed
and we don't rememberanything the next day.
And so I feel that was the first inklings
(04:19):
of my explorations.
But it wasn't until much later
that I started actuallyexploring queerness within myself
and having relationships withpeople of the same sex as me.
(uplifting music)
When did I find the LGBTQIA+ community?
(04:43):
I feel like I'm still finding it
and I'm still finding it within myself.
And it's interestingbecause when I was preparing
to come on this podcast and I was thinking
about my sexual orientation
and the fact that I identifyas pansexual and realized,
no one ever in my life has ever asked me
what my sexuality is.
And I don't know ifthat's because that's rude
(05:04):
and we don't do that,
or if it's because I'm assumed hetero,
I've had a lot more hetero relationships
than I have same sex or different genders.
And so I felt, yeah, I feelsome sadness around that
and I feel some interestingfeelings inside of myself
with a sense of not being queer enough
and where do I fit in?
And I was looking atthat, and it's good though
(05:26):
to look at the LGBTQIA+because I'm literally in there.
I'm in the middle, I'm a Q.
And it took me a long time
to really understandwhat that meant for me.
And I think I'm still exploringwhat that means for me
because it changes, it's not defined,
it's not solid and it's not stable.
And I think it's reallyimportant for me to remember that
(05:47):
because I do fit thereand I do belong there.
Yeah, it's still an explorationand still a learning.
And I remember my firstrelationship with a woman
was we met at a festival,
at an all women's festival actually.
And it was insaneattraction at first sight.
And we decided that we would get married
(06:09):
at a festival in amonth's time after that,
even though we hadn't evenstarted dating at this point.
This was just a silly littleflirtatious exploration.
Oh, my gosh, and we really went there.
We then started datingand it was the most insane
and physical attraction that I've ever had
with anyone possibly.
And it was interesting too,because I was in a relationship
(06:30):
with a man at the same time as well.
So I was navigating polyamory,
I was navigating my firstrelationship with a woman
and I was in my Saturn return, I was 27.
Life was really big and really exciting
and I was really pushingthe edges of my identity
and my experience andreally wanting to go there.
(06:51):
I was like, "This is my timeto learn everything possible
"and do everything possible."
So it was very exciting.
And we did have a very overthe top actual wedding,
like it was supposed to be a sort of joke,
a sort of doof wedding,but it was really real
and really special.
And on the day, people justcame out of the woodworks.
Even my partner had a bridal party.
(07:12):
I was walked down to thedance floor by two people.
There was a celebrant, someoneplayed the didgeridoo for us.
And someone gave us this giant crystal
that was the size of my arm
(laughing) and was so happy for us.
And actually, I think wewere both really high on acid
but it was real, like it was so extra
(07:33):
and it was so over thetop and it was so fun
and it was real, and itis just a fun memory.
And I still have peoplecome up to me at festivals,
"Are you the woman that gotmarried at this festival?"
And I was like, "Yeah,that was me, that was us."
That was my first step into,I guess, the queer community
(07:53):
or having a relationship withsomeone the same sex as me.
And it was a rollercoaster,that's for sure.
I have these ideas and I don'tknow where they come from
of what queer is, thatit looks like something
or that I have to be wearingan oversized pastel jumper
with like big gloves and have short hair
and be a certain way or be an activist.
(08:15):
I have so much respect for people
in the queer space who are activists
and really speaking out,and I don't do that.
I don't dress a particular way.
And for some reason in my mind
I feel like I'm not queer enough
which is ridiculous and I'mgoing to move through that.
But I think it's great to identify this
because I imagine that a lot of people
have a similar experience
and therefore, I'm not sure what impact
(08:36):
that is having on my life, but it's there.
And so I would like to move through that.
So that relationshiplasted for nine months.
At the same time I wasliving with a male partner
and we didn't see each otheras much as we would like
and it didn't burn out that quickly
but it was super intense
(08:57):
and it never reallylanded within ourselves.
We never really landed ina deeper emotional place.
I think it was novelty forboth of us in some ways
and definitely for me.
And I felt in a waythere was this novelty,
and perhaps because Iwas questioning myself
or perhaps because I hadsome internalized homophobia
going on as well and someself-judgment around that as well,
(09:20):
and I was navigating a lot.
I was in two relationships
and I was really in love with this woman,
and at the same time stillfinding this electricity
that never settled and wewere having a wild time.
We were going to lots offestivals and lots of nightclubs.
And so a lot of our relationship
was centered around big experiences.
(09:40):
We weren't alone that much together.
So I decided that therelationship was over.
I think for me, therewas a big age difference.
I am five years older and in our 20s,
that was quite a dramatic difference.
And so while the physicalattraction was really strong
and the love was really strong,
it felt like the stageof life was incompatible
(10:03):
and that it wasn't going to work for me.
And also it was so much trauma between us
and in the end I just needed to step back
and focus on my onerelationship that I was in.
But it was really hard
because it was one ofthose relationships where,
and I still love her so much,
where you love someone so much,
(10:24):
but it's almost doesn't make sense
where you're like, "I don't know why?"
Especially because it was myfirst relationship as a woman,
I was like, I don't knowwhy I love you so much
that I wanna squish youinto a tiny little ball.
And I would try and rationalizeit and it doesn't work.
And sometimes that love isn't enough
to make a relationship work,
(10:46):
and it didn't and it was chaotic.
And so I needed to step away, and I did.
And it was sad, but itwas the right thing to do.
And we're still friends.
We've supported each other over the years.
That's the only relationshipI've had with a woman.
I'm dating a woman at the moment,
(11:08):
and we dated a couple of yearsago and we're dating again,
which is exciting and nice,
and I don't know exactly where it's going
but we are just taking things slow.
I think last time it was super physical
and that was exciting and electric.
And this time I've recognized
that I want to drop inon an emotional level.
(11:31):
And maybe because of my lastrelationship with the woman,
we didn't get to thatdeeper emotional level,
but it feels important tome now many years later.
That is something that we share together
as a deep emotionalconnection before we move
into all of the hotness that can be had.
And I think for me now,
it's important to havean emotional connection
if I'm going to have real intimacy.
(11:52):
Like I can do physical intimacy
with someone I don't havean emotional connection with
but it's not interesting, it's not deep,
it doesn't feel connective.
So for me now in my relationships,
it's important for meto have a level of trust
and a level of safety and alevel of emotional connection
and ability to communicate
in order to be in a space of intimacy
(12:12):
and for it to feel rich and delicious.
Yeah, is much moresatisfying when that's there.
I think when I speak about trust,
I'm speaking about theability to feel safe
in a relationship.
I trust that you are going to listen
to my know and respect it.
I trust that when I ask foryou to do something different,
(12:34):
you'll be able to hear me.
It's basically having asense of trust in the person
that I can drop my layers andfeel safe in the connection.
(uplifting music)
I am still, if someone lookedfrom an outside perspective,
(12:55):
I appear polyamorous.
I don't necessarily identifywith the term polyamorous
because I feel like itthen puts me into a box,
a polyamorous box.
At the moment, I am relating,
I was in a relationship with a man,
he's beautiful and I lovehim and he's my best friend,
and we were in a relationshipfor three years recently.
(13:17):
And I wanted to have children
and he tried to want tohave children with me,
but ultimately he didn't.
And we ended the relationship as it was
but we still love each other so much.
We care about each other.
We sleep together occasionally.
He has other lovers andhas since discovered
that he's a relationship anarchist,
which he is his favoritetopic at the moment. (laughs)
(13:38):
And he talks about it a what to me,
about what it means to him tobe a relationship anarchist.
And he's really found something
in that for him, which is awesome.
And for him that's having friendships
that are emotionally connectiveand deep and multilayered
and relating with friendsin different ways,
(13:59):
whether that's sexual orhaving a tactile relationship.
And it's non hierarchical.
I'm open to different forms of relating.
I think at this stage of my life,
I'd really like to have amonogamous relationship.
And at the same time, I'mquite scared of monogamy.
I'm scared of it notbeing interesting enough.
I'm scared of getting bored.
(14:21):
I have ADHD, so I have atendency to get bored easily.
And also with ADHD
comes something calledrejection sensitive dysphoria.
So with that, it can appear like boredom.
But what I'm starting to recognize
as I do more research on this
is that it's actuallymy fear of rejection,
(14:43):
that means I'm going tostep out sooner than I would
because I'm afraid of being rejected.
And as I look back on relationships
and the way that they've ended,
which has been always with me,
I wonder how much ofthat really is rejection
sensitive dysphoria andme backing out sooner
than maybe I needed or wanted to
(15:03):
from a place of fear thatmasked itself as boredom
and just gave me no feelingsat all towards that person.
So that's interesting to reflect on.
But in terms of the way I relate,
I'm just open to lots ofdifferent types of relating
and also working with theperson I'm in relationship with.
(15:23):
So if the person I'm inrelationship with at the moment
as we move towards potentiallysomething more serious,
I will consider wherethey're at and what they want
and that will influence how I relate
and whether I relatewith other people or not.
But I'm not attached to anyparticular way of relating.
I'm not attached to beinglike I am polyamorous
(15:44):
or I am a relationship anarchist
but I do not necess...
Do I believe in monogamy?
It looks nice, (laughs) it looks nice,
and I want to want it.
And at the same time, Ijust really strongly feel
like I can't own...
I'm not saying that monogamous people own
other people's bodies,
but I just feel like I cannot tell you
(16:06):
what you can and can't do with your body
if you're in a relationship with me.
And if you want to dosomething with your body
with somebody else,and that's true for you
and we're honest about it,
that feels like howcould I tell someone no?
How could I be like, "I'msorry, that makes me feel bad,
"you can't have that experience."
That doesn't feel correct to me.
(16:27):
So whether that makes menon-monogamous or not,
I don't know.
And just to add onto that,I am at a point in my life
where I am seeking monogamy,
and monogamy in a radical sense.
So there's this term thatI heard, radical monogamy,
and it speaks to choosing monogamy not
(16:47):
because it's the default
and not because whatsociety has told us to do
but because we've lookedat all of our options
and explored what's available
and thought, "I'm goingto commit to one person
"and that's what I choose to do."
So I'm at a point in my lifenow where I'm ready for that
and I'm excited about that.
(uplifting music)
(17:08):
I do feel like my perceptionsof the queer community
have held me at arm's length
and inhibited me from joining in.
I'm not sure what I would joinin, I'm in a queer book club.
I don't go to any of the events
but I've watched the messagesroll through on my messenger
(laughs) and, but I do I feellike there's an identity there
(17:29):
and something that I need to work through
but I don't feel like I fit the mold.
And that has stopped me fromfeeling a sense of belonging
that I would want to feel.
I don't necessarily feellike I need to belong.
I don't cry at night
because I don't fit intothe queer community.
(17:49):
And there's not times whereI feel like I'm not allowed.
Actually, that's not true at all.
I was invited on a queerquest and a vision quest
and I questioned, I've actuallyquestioned a lot in my life.
"Am I queer enough to do that?
"Are you sure you aretalking to the right person?"
And I was asked recently
if I would facilitate a queer quest.
(18:10):
I was like, "I dunno,are they gonna trust me?
"Are they gonna believe I'm queer enough?"
And yeah, I think itis a common experience
and I've been speaking topeople about it very recently.
And I also wanna recognizethat there is a privilege
in passing as hetero and notfully identifying as queer.
And especially not untilmy very later life,
(18:31):
it wasn't a question for meas a child or an adolescent.
I didn't question my sexuality.
I never actually questioned my sexuality.
I never sat there and go, "Is this not,"
it was just like I was attracted to women
and so then I would date women.
And I think it actuallyonly became questions for me
when I became attracted togender non-binary people
(18:55):
or trans people.
And then I started
to have some internalized stigma come up
and I had to question inmyself, what's going on there,
and start to work throughsome things for myself.
But I have never actuallyreally given my queerness
much of a thought, to be honest.
So I don't feel excluded.
(19:16):
And at the same time Iwant to feel included.
So there's a little bitof a division inside of me
in how I feel about that.
(uplifting music)
Do I think that society is more accepting
of LGBTQIA+ people now than in the past?
(19:36):
Absolutely, and I want to acknowledge
that's because so manyqueer, gay, trans people
put their lives on the line tofight for their human rights
and to fight for marriageequality and just to be seen.
So I live in a veryprivileged time where A,
(19:57):
I'm privileged because I pass as hetero
and I'm white and many otherways that I receive privilege,
but also that to be aqueer person in this time
is a lot easier for me thanit has been in previous ages.
I definitely feel so muchmore ease though with men,
like having been withmore men over my life
(20:18):
and I'm a sex worker and I work with men,
so there's just thisnaturalness and this ease
when I'm flirting with aman or interacting with one.
And I love being withanyone other than men
because there's this naturalness
and this innocence that comes through
(20:38):
and also because it's verydifferent to my work life.
Like I'm used to a particular body
and touching a particulartype of body a lot
and being touched by aparticular type of body.
So when I'm with someonewho's not a cis-man,
there's a real beauty and innocence
and I feel like a teenager,and I don't know how to flirt
(20:58):
or what to do when Itry and talk to women.
And it's cute and excitingand just different
and I think reallyimportant for me as well.
And I don't know why, but forsome reason it feels important
in terms of my work and mywork being mostly with men.
It feels like a point of difference
and that I absolutelydon't do it on purpose.
(21:20):
But it feels like if I'm dating a woman,
it's so different to myexperience of working with men
and especially becausemy work is so intimate
and it takes a lot of me
and asks a lot of my personal nature.
And I think something that I really love
(21:41):
about being with a woman is it does,
it differentiates my intimatelife so much from my work life
because my work life is so intimate
and I'm having these intimatephysical experiences with men.
Sometimes when I'm withmen in my personal life,
it can bleed over and I canfind myself playing the role
of the sex worker or playingthe role of I'm leading
(22:02):
or I have a role even to play in intimacy.
And I really try and checkmyself and not do that
but even having to check myself
and not do that can be tiring.
And when I'm with someone ofa different sex or gender,
it feels like I don't have to do that.
I'm a lot less experienced.
And having that life ofexperience is actually really nice
(22:24):
because so often I feel like I'm the one
with more experience in physical intimacy
and so it's nice
and relaxing to not feelthat and nerve wracking.
And I like feeling nervous about intimacy.
It's cute and spicy, yeah.
(uplifting music)
(22:48):
So I came to Mount Alexander.
I had been living in Melbourne
for seven years prior to that
and I never thought I wouldlive in a city for that long.
I never thought I wouldlive in a city at all.
I'd been living all overthe world before that
and immediately before thatI'd been living in Aubrey,
which is a smallish town on the Murray
(23:10):
and I just needed to leavethe sound of the city
was getting so loud nomatter where I went,
it was just this constantthrumming on my being.
And I just knew that I needed to leave
and I wasn't sure where it would be.
I thought, oh, maybeWarrandyte or maybe Belgrave.
And then a friend slashcolleague of mine at the time
(23:34):
made a joke and said,
"I'm starting a share house in Guildford.
"You should come and move in."
And I said, "Yes,"
and I am a spontaneousperson and I do things.
And she was a little taken aback
and I'm not sure if she actuallymeant it or not (laughs).
We're best friends now, by the way.
So it all worked out well.
And so I did, I just, next week I came up
(23:56):
and had a look at thehouse and it was beautiful
on two acres on a hill lookingover, I could see Tarrengower
and Leanganook and Lak from my bedroom.
And it was such a stunning place.
And so I just, very quickly and easily,
(24:16):
made the move out here.
I've been out here for fouryears now and I love it.
I feel, I love the sense of community
a real sense of community
in the sense that I'm in community
with people I wouldn't be friends with.
And I think there'sreal growth points there
and that's what real community is
as opposed to a community that's based on,
(24:36):
like my Melbourne communityare very homogenous
in the sense that ifit's the dance community
or the festival community,
it's people that are incommunity based on shared values,
and while that is true inmany of the communities
in Castleman, in Mount Alexander Shire,
there's also more people in there
because they live in the area,
(24:57):
not just because we share values
and then we have to navigatelife together in that sense.
And something I like about living here too
is the multi-generational aspect.
I have friends who are intheir 70s and we go out,
a friend of mine wasgoing to India recently
and we went to the pubfor his going away party.
And there were people in their early 20s
through to their 70s.
(25:18):
And it's not, that's family,this is our friendship group.
And it's so nice.
And I had a friend from Melbourne visiting
and he was perplexed.
He was like, "This is interesting,
"I don't see this in Melbourne."
And it was literally,
I think we didn't have anyone in their 50s
but we had someonerepresenting different ages,
and it's really nice.
(25:39):
I feel like more and more,
I am in a place where I'mliving my authentic self
and also being presentto myself as I change
and as I age and navigating that,
but I definitely do feel that.
And I don't think I've ever really felt
too much of a problem withauthenticity honestly,
(26:00):
except for when I get told,I'm too loud or too much
or too over the top andI need to tone it down,
and then I have spent sometime trying to navigate
how to be my authentic self in a way
that other people feel comfortable.
I've had lots of conversations
and lots of thoughts about this
because it is important to me
(26:21):
that other people feel comfortable.
I'm not of the vein, likeeveryone can just go get stuffed.
I'm me, and whatever that means
is you have to work around it.
I don't think that's fair.
If someone's going tobe very uncomfortable
because I'm expressingmyself in a particular way,
then I wanna check that,
because maybe in that particular space
for that particular personI don't need to do that.
And I think there's a maturity in that,
(26:42):
and it's a knowing ofmyself that I don't have to,
my authenticity doesn'tmean saying everything
I think all the time andbeing unapologetically me
because I actually care about other people
and I care about their comfortability
but not to sacrifice myself.
But there are times that are appropriate
(27:04):
for me to be the big, wild,crazy, epic yelling Sarah,
and there are times forme to sit back and listen.
And I've gotten to a point nowwhere I know the difference
and I can assess the scene and see
what version of myself is needed
and appropriate in thatmoment and be that.
(inspiring music)
(27:41):
- This project was made possible
with the financial assistance
of Victoria's PrideRegional Activation Program
and Midsumma Festival.
And with the support of theMount Alexander Shire Council,
the Mount Alexander Shire,LGBTIQA+ Steering Group,
and the and Now RadioProgram on MAINfm 94.9.
This podcast has been producedby the Queer and Now team
(28:03):
Sherene Clow & AmalieO'Hara at MAINfm 94.9.
Editing and original music by Amy Chapman.
A big thank you to all participants
for sharing their stories
with such a wonderfulgenerosity of spirit.
If anything within this episodehas been upsetting for you,
please reach out and callthe dedicated LGBTIQA+
(28:24):
helpline switchboard on 1800 184 527,
or Lifeline on 13 11 14,
or kids helpline 1800 551 800.
(gentle music)
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