Ep 94: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome: A Journey of Self-Reflection with Sarah Farmer

Do you suffer from imposter syndrome?

 

That feeling that you are not good enough.

 

To overcome it requires self-reflection and self-acceptance. But it is possible, especially with the help of my guest in this episode, Sarah Farmer.

 

Sarah helps those with reduced self-confidence and self-belief stop sabotaging their success and unleashing their potential. But she has also had to overcome her own challenges in life, such as dealing with her anger, living with ADHD, and the effects of being seen as different growing up.

 

She also shares the difficult times she has faced both as a daughter and as a mother. Revealing a very current and raw situation her family have been faced with.

 

Sarah vows she will never use her personal circumstances as a reason to give up. And it shows through everything she shares.

 

“Trust yourself and don’t worry so much” – Sarah Farmer

 

You'll hear about:

 

00:58 - An introduction to Sarah

02:03 - Sarah's experience with imposter syndrome

12:05 - The Covid effect

16:20 - What pisses Sarah off?

17:56 - Has Sarah shown anger in her life?

22:20 - Dealing with your shit

26:37 - Sarah on her relationship with her kids

29:52 - Sarah's journey since school

33:47 - How has ADHD affected Sarah's life?

36:48 - Sarah on mental health

39:00 - Sometimes you just have bad days

42:24 - Sarah's work with her clients

45:58 - The impact ADHD has had on Sarah's life

54:13 - What has scared and scarred Sarah the

 

Sarah’s resources:

 

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-farmer-coach/

EMR Consulting - https://www.emr-consulting.co.uk/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sarahfarmerexeccoach/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/SarahEMRConsultingLtd

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDNbtDenSbAs-DjwhZNexlw/featured

 

Have I got imposter syndrome? https://impostersyndromelevel.scoreapp.com/

 

My resources: LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/itschrisoconnell/

Twitter - https://twitter.com/ChrisOConnell11

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/chrisoconnellcoach/

TikTok - https://www.instagram.com/chrisoconnellcoach/

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_ZWYrxrzzaElmpZMy5S86w

Basemindset website - https://basemindset.com/

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
What really winds me up is, you know, I'ma woman and I'm a neurodiverse woman, but
I don't want to use that as an excuse.
I want to use that as a tool to help meget places and do things better.
But I've learned to use that rather thansaying to people, yeah, it's because I'm a
woman.
it's because I'm neurodiverse.

(00:20):
It's because of this.
It's because I'm 52.
And I want to help more and more peoplesee how much more control they can have
over their future.
If.
They start to understand themselves andstop trying to be something they're not,
or using what they haven't got as a reasonto give up.

(00:45):
Sarah Farmer, welcome to the Purpose ofTheir Leadership podcast.
Absolutely delighted to have you on theshow.
We are good friends.
We've been chatting on LinkedIn for acouple of years now.
We've met in person.
I think you're an amazing person.
So, but for those that don't know who youare, who are you?
Who am I?

(01:06):
The real answer is I'm a very energeticoptimist.
That's what I am and who I am.
As a job, I'm an executive coach and Iwork with senior leaders, leadership
teams, helping them develop the selfleadership skills and people leadership
skills to just be bright and brilliant andawesome so that they create amazing
cultures.

(01:26):
But me as a person, I'm energetic, I'moptimistic, recently diagnosed with ADHD.
So listening to Thomas's.
Yes.
One that you did with him last week.
Yes.
Has been really fascinating.
I'm a mom, got two children, 18 and 16year old, been married for 22 years.
And yeah, and I've come through a verywiggly path to get where I am today, but

(01:51):
I'm delighted to be here because I finallyfeel I am where I belong.
So that's good.
You're definitely worthy and youdefinitely are where you belong.
And I want to talk to you about yourwiggly path, as you put it, but also,
The imposter syndrome piece.
Talk to us about why you're doing that andwhat imposter syndrome you've suffered

(02:14):
from.
So the reason I'm working on it and I'mreally passionate about it is because
something I've struggled with all my lifeand people don't believe that because I'm
really extrovert.
I'm really out there, but this is thething about imposter syndrome.
This is what got me into it.
It's how...
how can I have it or what appears to beit, but be this extrovert person?

(02:36):
So I started looking into a lot ofinformation about it and started doing a
lot of research.
Then COVID hit and a lot of my clients whowere in jobs, big jobs, MDs, directors of
this, they lost their jobs and lost theirconfidence completely.
And it was like an acute attack ofimposter syndrome hit.

(02:57):
So I started to use everything I'vebeen...
learning for myself through counseling,through coaching, through training courses
and thought, well, let's just see if Ican, let's see if I can create something
that helps them get over it.
And it did.
And I didn't really, I have to admit, Ididn't necessarily plan it that way, but I
was thinking, well, if we do this firstand then we do that and this works and it

(03:19):
evolved and it evolved.
And then the, what is now called the Eagleprogram was developed.
and that really came about through.
joining a company called Dent, who I wason a course of theirs.
And part of their program was write abook.
And it was writing the book that actuallyreally cemented the Eagle program.

(03:40):
Cause I didn't really have a name for it.
I was just doing my thing and it wasworking.
And whilst I'm helping all these people,I'm helping myself too.
So every day I talk about it.
It's like self help.
It's brilliant.
Because I always find the best coaches,right, me included in what I mean by that,
not saying I'm the best coach.
You're saying you're the best coach?
Well, let me finish by sentence.

(04:01):
No, I'm the best coach.
I like to think of it.
It's confidence, not arrogance, right?
The best coaches are the ones who haveactually been through what they're
teaching their coaches.
I think so.
I don't see how you can, I think you canteach stuff that you've never done.
Yeah.
So you can learn a course and you couldteach it.
But to really have that empathy and thatunderstanding and that desire to help

(04:22):
people, it's got to come from within.
I don't know many people that aren't doinga coaching related job where they haven't
experienced a thing that they're dealingwith.
Yeah.
Because even the best coaches, right, wehave our, actually it was yesterday, I put
a story on my Instagram where I think itwas on the lines of, shit day, long story.

(04:45):
You can't win all the time.
And I had a really shit day yesterday andthere's a combination of things and people
reaching out to me, you're okay.
And I deleted it.
And I was just thinking, well, you know,we're all human beings, right?
And I think it's important to show thatvulnerability as well.
Yeah.
And you, you're really good at that.
And I've, and we've talked, we've touchedon this before is you are, I would say
more vulnerable now.

(05:06):
It's been growing, hasn't it?
You're, you're comfort in beingvulnerable.
And so is mine.
I mean, I'm nowhere near where you are,but.
I'm very, I'm much more comfortable nowbeing who I am.
And that for me is vulnerability.
Not necessarily telling people everything,but allowing myself to be who I am.
Because I never was.

(05:28):
Because you've mentioned a couple of timesnow, you mentioned just now about, you
know, I now feel unworthy kind of thing.
And you've just mentioned there that youdon't feel as if you're where I am.
And you just said again, that, so there'sobviously something going on here with
that.
What sort of.
journey have you had with that?
How long have you got?
Well, at least an hour.

(05:48):
So it starts with growing up.
I was, I am Jewish.
I say I was Jewish because I don't followthe religion.
And I went to a school that I think wastrying to embrace Judaism or difference,
but it was a long, long time ago and theydidn't do it very well.

(06:09):
and, and we were, I talk about this in thebook, you know, there was 12 Jews in the
school and I was one of them.
And we were separated for assembly andwent to our own Jewish assembly where we
talked about Jewish stuff.
I don't remember what we talked about, butwe wanted to, it didn't feel like we were
allowed in the main, in the main room.
But the worst thing was then we would getparaded halfway through the assembly for

(06:33):
the main bit, for the main topics.
And we'd be paraded in and.
Every morning, everyone would turn to lookat us.
We'd all sit together in our own littleJewish group while all of the others sat
together.
And I honestly think that was the momentwhen I thought, I don't like being
different.
I'm different.
I don't like it.
And I found myself fighting everythingfrom then on.

(06:53):
And that was from the age of seven.
And actually it's bizarre because I did, Iused to suffer quite badly with panic
attacks.
And the ADHD will make me jump from thingto thing, by the way.
I used to suffer with panic attacks andone of them I got was really, really bad.
And I ended up having to go forhypnotherapy to try and calm it because
nothing would stop it.
I thought I was going to die.
And she, she could only get me back to theage of seven.

(07:16):
And that's where I'm sure that's where itall started is before then I think I was a
happy go lucky little Sarah, but beingJewish in a non -Jewish environment made
you stand out.
And, and.
I didn't know I was dyslexic.
I didn't know I was ADHD.
I was naughty.
I was square pegging around whole time.

(07:40):
So you felt as if you've kind of carriedthat thought process throughout your
career really or your life really.
Through everything.
It's affected every decision I've made upuntil probably about four years ago.
Wow.
When I really started to know myself, likemyself, trust myself.

(08:00):
Yes.
Stopped taking shit from people that mademe feel small.
Yeah.
It's amazing how people like, you know,especially if you're quite strong and
confident, you're almost a target, aren'tyou, for people to attack.
It's like, well, if we can bring you down,this'll be fun.
Yeah.
And people do it in little ways, don'tthey?
But I think you're similar to me.

(08:21):
It really affects me.
It's almost like I try not to take itpersonally, but I'm quite an empathetic
person.
And I, but I just, I just.
fathom how someone can be that kind ofhurtful and disingenuous and kind of like
almost thrive on that vulnerability thatwe've got.
And it shouldn't affect me as much as itdoes, but I think it affects you as well.
Well, listen, so what I've learned to dois through all this work with learning

(08:44):
about confidence, emotional intelligence,taking control of imposter syndrome, all
of that, what I've learned to do is youcan't stop the feeling because we have
that innate response, right?
It just, it triggers us.
But what I do now is I've got a...
a way of noticing the trigger somehow, notalways, somehow calming myself down.
And what would have normally taken maybedays or weeks to get over will now take

(09:07):
minutes, maybe a day most.
So it's a lot quicker.
You know, something happened quiterecently with a friend of mine and I won't
go into, I don't think she's very well,but she started attacking me.
And that would have bothered me for avery, very long time.
But I went, to be honest, it's.
it's something going on with them.

(09:27):
If someone needs to bring us down.
It's not actually a personal thing againstyou.
It's not personal, it's everything tothem.
So if you can switch it and say, actually,I feel really sorry for you and empathise
with them because they must be goingthrough a very bad time.
Your brain can't allow you to empathiseand be upset and feeling sorry for
yourself.
I also think as a balanced, we canempathise with these people, but also I

(09:51):
think there's times where you have tofucking stand up for yourself and go,
mate.
you in the fucking wrong.
I had it with a client a couple of daysago and they hadn't paid me for three or
four times in a row that all the pain lay.
And I just, I just left a voice in thatand just, and I kind of just laid laid it
out and then he paid me within like 20minutes, you know, and I just think old

(10:12):
Chris will probably would allow that to goon for another month and another month.
Yeah.
And again, when people aren't paying you,you take that as a personal offence.
So if someone doesn't turn up for acoaching session with me.
My immediate reaction is, well, why, whyhaven't you come to see me?
And actually it's nothing to do with me.
It's everything to do with them.
And my job as a coach is to then call itout and say, what's going on.

(10:34):
If someone isn't paying you, you call itout.
but none of us like, however we are, noneof us like confrontation.
No.
And we hope that people are going to treatus the way we would treat other people.
And they just won't and they just don't.
No, no, that's so true.
Isn't it?
And when you get used to that.
Yeah.
And not that everybody will treat youbadly.
There's great people out there.

(10:55):
But you start to weed them out quite fastand go, do you know what?
Nah.
I'm much less tolerant now.
I used to be like, well, I can't possiblyblock that person out of my life.
Now I'm like, I'm pretty much, well, ifyou're going to be like that, you can do
one.
And I think what that also does, itcreates more space for the right people.
I'm a firm believer in that.
And it's almost like, I think we setchallenges sometimes and tests around
what, if you want to keep going back tothat person and doing that person, then

(11:18):
you're going to get more of the same,right?
We're making choices.
This is what really fascinates me is whenpeople, you know, I have chats with my
clients or my friends are like, yeah, butthis happened and this happened.
I'm like, again, so it happened again.
So when are you going to learn to takecontrol?
People refuse to learn to take control.
But I think also like me, you're not asold as me, but as, as you get older, you

(11:40):
know, times getting shorter and youhaven't got as much space for other
people, but you start to have more valuein yourself.
I definitely value myself more now than Idid.
Yeah.
And if people don't want to be with me, ifthey want to treat me badly, if they don't
want to work with me, really don't carethat much.
Well, I do a little bit, but not enough,not enough better.
Because when it happens again and again,you start to think the whole world's like

(12:02):
that.
But actually I just think, I just think ithas been a similar timeframe as well.
It's only been the last four years whereI've started to kind of switch and adapt.
It's the COVID effect.
Well, what do you think it is though?
Well, for me, I think it was the COVIDeffect because...
I was on the cusp of something anyway.
I was making changes and I was starting tostand up for myself in a position that I

(12:27):
wasn't very happy in.
And COVID hit, I left that position andthen I set up my own company.
But it took about two or three months tomeet.
I actually sat still.
Literally doing nothing, go, my God, I'vegot no clients, I've got no nothing.
And it was having that strength ofcharacter to just suddenly join LinkedIn,

(12:49):
you know, I've not been on it before.
Right.
So you only been on it for three or fouryears, right?
Yeah.
okay.
I didn't know that.
I didn't know what I was doing.
And set myself up instead of being atrainer who does coaching, is a coach who
does training as well.
Because I love both, but I wanted to makea difference.
And going on courses, meeting people,putting myself out there on social media
and all of that stuff.

(13:10):
That's...
started to change everything.
However, I honestly think it's only, andit was talking to you, I'm sure I was
talking to you about a year ago.
And you said, I said, I don't know what, Idon't know where I'm going wrong.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
And you went, just be yourself.
You're just not being yourself.
And now I am.
I use my words.
Occasionally I might swear.
Sorry if you don't like it, but that's whoI am.

(13:33):
I'm feisty.
I say what I think.
Whereas before I was very much like, well,let's gently touch up.
That's not me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I do think COVID, although it wasn't,it wasn't COVID that caused it.
It was that break that we all went intothat gave us, well gave me time to think,
reevaluate and redo myself, come out asthe person I wanted to be.

(13:55):
Yeah.
And I think it's about, it is about beingyourself.
And I think that the trap that I fell intoon LinkedIn, I started quite well.
I was getting hundreds and thousands oflikes and comments, but I look, I look
back at some of those posts now.
And the posts were, I think they're addingvalue to a degree, but they were quite

(14:16):
like and comment orientated.
Whereas now I post with intention and Iget less likes, but I'm not doing it for a
show.
I'm doing it because there's value there.
And I think there's, and it's really me.
I'm not trying to play to the audience.
Yeah.
But you've also, you've earned yourstripes, haven't you?
You know, you've got that, you had thatbig uplift.

(14:39):
I don't know how long you've been on it,but you had that big uplift in, you know,
what 72 or a thousand.
Yeah.
Not that I'm watching the figures.
But you've now got the ability.
I think you have to earn your stripes tobe able to do it.
Although I never went on to, to getthousands and thousands of people
following me.
I don't want to be famous.

(14:59):
I don't want to have, I was going to say,I don't want to have loads of money.
I'd like a little bit more money.
Let's be honest.
But.
It isn't about that.
It's just about, I want to work with greatpeople and to work with great people.
One way is to go and find them and talk tothem.
The other way is to show up on LinkedInand show your wares.
If I end up with a hundred thousand peoplefollowing me because of that, that's
wonderful, but that's not the aim.

(15:20):
But if you do, I then wonder how manypeople are there just to go, look, you're
almost famous.
Click like, click like, and you see thathappen as well.
And I don't like that either.
I've never been a game player.
You can post anything and you get likesjust like.
I think that authenticity is a word that'sbanded around quite well.

(15:41):
You're one of the most real and authenticpeople I've met.
Do you think?
I do.
Why are you surprised by that?
No, I'm just, I don't often get describedso politely.
What have you been called worse than that?
Yeah, I'm, you know, one of my clientsjust posted on LinkedIn a recommendation.

(16:03):
And he, he said lots of nice things and hecalled me a force of nature.
Yeah.
Which I've been called in the past plentyof times and I am and not in a bad way,
but I have so much energy and drive andenthusiasm that it is quite a force of
nature.
But a lot of people didn't like that inthe past.
What pisses you off?
What makes you angry?
Do you say lies?

(16:25):
can't bear lies.
Someone lies to me.
If someone cheats me, they're gone.
What does it do to you?
I despise them.
You don't do that to people.
There was someone, and I hope he watchesthis, there was someone who I was really
helping a long time ago when I wasproperly employed and had a real job.

(16:45):
And he didn't.
And I got him into where I was working andI literally held his hand.
I was giving him work.
Then I went into my own.
running my own business and I got him todo some work, for my husband's company
actually.
And bear in mind, my husband was signingoff the invoice.
He told me how much he'd been paid and itwas about several thousand pounds less

(17:09):
than that.
And my husband was like, well, that's nottrue.
Because obviously I was getting a cut ofthat part of that was a referral fee.
so he kind of fleeced you.
So I was paying him, but it had to gothrough his business because that's the
way it all works.
And he fleeced me and I've never everspoken to him again.
I will not forgive people for that.
You don't do that to people.
No, that's a different world of, you canlie and be disingenuous, but when you're

(17:33):
being deceitful and taking something fromsomebody like that, that's another level
of.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it doesn't.
I'm so straightforward.
Yeah.
I mean, talking about anger, you know,I've had my moments.
I've done lots of therapy and counseling.
I used to be quite resentful, angryperson, but I...
I now pride myself on kind of respondingrather than reacting and you know, in your

(17:56):
life though, have you, have you shownanger much?
You think.
So let's go back to when little Sarah wasaround.
Yeah, I was very angry.
I was angry from the age of seven.
I was angry because.
because I was different.
I was angry because I felt stupid becauseI wasn't, I wasn't very clever.

(18:20):
You know, I didn't know then that I, Ifound it difficult to learn.
I was just seen as trouble and, and I wascalled stupid, told I'd go nowhere.
And I used to get very, very angry.
And I used to try, because I, I used towant to try and I wanted to make people
like me and love me.
And all I'd seem to do was repel them evenmore.
So the more I went for them, the morethey'd back off.
So I didn't have many friends.

(18:43):
And now I have loads, you know, now it's acompletely different world because I could
see what I was doing.
I was scaring people.
This force of nature was quite scary.
so that, that made me very angry and.
Yeah.
You know, I've got a very, interestingrelationship with my, with my mom.
My dad's an absolute sweetheart, reallyeasy to get on with.

(19:04):
My mom was also very angry and she taughtme that when you're upset, you show anger.
So if anything upsets me, I bite.
I used to.
Now I know not to, sometimes I still can,but it's my first response.
If someone upsets me, I will bite.
And anger is what you'll see.
What I want to do is cry, but I can't cry.
Very rarely cry.

(19:26):
Really?
You know, if you put like a dying puppy onfilm or something, I'm off.
So is that because you kind of conditionedbecause of what happened at school and
you've been sort of segregated almost, youkind of put on this kind of cocoon?
Yeah, I think so.
I think so.
And also because my mom didn't likecrying.

(19:46):
So she would always say, don't cry, putyourself together.
Don't cry, put yourself together.
I hope to God she never sees this.
I don't think she will cause she doesn'tknow how to use the internet.
So it'll be fine.
but, but I grew up believing that youdon't cry.
You put yourself together.
We're tough.
Cause she had to be so tough, but shenever dealt with her shit.
So when was the last time you cried then?

(20:08):
Properly.
Well, I couldn't go to Kilimanjaro.
I was going to bring that up.
I was so gutted you didn't make it, butyou were there in spirit, honestly.
Thanks, buddy.
But no, I was, I was absolutely gutted.
And I know people will go, it was just atrip.
It was just, it wasn't you.
You'll know it wasn't just a trip.
It was a group of people that had alreadybuilt this bond.

(20:32):
And it was like, I felt bereft.
I felt like I'd lost something.
Just before day four.
literally 48 hours before.
I've never had COVID before in my life.
And.
And I felt guilty because I'd raised thismoney that wasn't going to get, well, it
was going to get used.
It got sent straight away, but I wasn'tdoing the thing.
God.
I bet when you saw the pictures and stuff,you were like, pleased for us, but also

(20:52):
like gutted as anything.
I was always pleased for you.
And you know, I watched your videos andactually you made me cry a lot because
every time you cried, I was crying.
I was like, stop it.
And then Chris Lomas would cry and I'dcry.
But I went into a really dark space for agood couple of weeks.
I was really, really low.
I think COVID didn't help because thatmakes you feel quite low anyway.

(21:14):
And it wasn't till you guys came back thatI could settle and it wasn't because I was
jealous.
I was actually genuinely worried because Iknew it hadn't been planned properly.
I was scared for you all.
You were up there going, I think I'mdying.
Well, you weren't, but you know, you looklike it.
And I was like, my God, get them home.
So.
It was an amazing experience, but I thinkthat you've met a few, like Melissa,

(21:37):
you've met other people since then,haven't you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, Katie, Rob, Melissa, Craig.
They're all great people, aren't they?
I don't want to miss anyone.
Fiona, so many people, all amazing people.
And I've been really so blessed thatyou've all kept me.
Yeah.

(21:58):
You know, it was part of it.
And Melissa said the other week, she said,you know, we all felt like you were there.
It's okay.
And you're still part of it.
And I was like, it's really sweet, but youknow what?
This is your thing.
This was, no one can take it away from youguys.
You did an amazing thing.
And you know, I'm doing the three peaks ina couple of weeks, not quite the same
thing, but I'm going to do my thing.
Yeah.
But yeah, that was, that was the last timeI cried.

(22:21):
I cut you off a minute ago and you saidyour mom didn't deal with her shit.
What does that mean?
gosh.
I mean, that's a massive story.
So she, middle child mentally abusedwithout a doubt by her mother.
it ended up basically in that she didn'thave a relationship with her mother.
She didn't go to her funeral.
She didn't speak to her for the last 10,15 years of her life.

(22:43):
But my mom bizarrely, right, is a, was apsychologist.
And a lot of people who've been throughtrauma do coaching or psychology, don't
they?
Cause it's like self healing.
and I used to.
where I got my fascination for her.
She used to sit and listen at her door,her, her, psychologizing coaching people
was called counseling.
That's the way.
Counseling people and using thatsomewhere.

(23:06):
and be fascinated by all and then think,how can you behave like this?
And yet you're so good with them becauseshe was, she was really unhappy.
Yeah.
You know, I can see it now, but we had anawful relationship, awful, awful, but she
used to have to go for supervision as theydo.
Psychologists have to go for supervision.
I used to think, what are you telling yoursupervisor about you?

(23:27):
Cause you can't be telling her the truth.
This is really interesting, right?
I've been vocal about my mum abandoned mewhen I was two.
My stepmom used to beat me up.
My mother, my first child fucking abusedme and didn't let me see my children.
So I've had loads of women that have beenquite bad to me, but I feel as if I'm
almost so protective of women.

(23:49):
It goes the other way, very respectful.
And I don't.
need to talk about that in more detail.
I'm linking that to you in terms of you,you strike me as one of the most warmest,
kindest.
affectionate person I know, but you werenever taught that by your mum necessarily.
So explain that to me.

(24:09):
Cause I often find it's the people thatare bereft of that, that become really
good at something that they didn't get.
There's some sort of psychology in that, Ithink.
Do you see what I mean?
Firstly, thank you.
That means a lot to me.
But secondly, I think I'm really good atdoing that with people who I'm not related
to.

(24:31):
So I can be amazing to my friends and Ican be amazing.
And don't be wrong.
I'm a good enough mom and I'm a goodenough wife.
I could be better on both fronts, but, Idon't find it easy with people that are
like really close to me.
They, they seem to get the, the unfilteredme probably because I'm safe with them.

(24:56):
It's a safe space, isn't it?
You can, you can be your, your real self.
But also because you're with each otherway more than you are with, you know, if I
see you once every six months, how easy isthat?
You know, we've got loads to catch up on.
It's lovely.
Hugs.
Hey, hey, great, great.
But with, with people, you know, your kidsand also there's a lot going on at home.

(25:18):
You know, there's, my daughter's beenthrough an awful time.
My son is going through GCSEs and he'sbeen through a bad time.
So there's a lot of tension in that safespace at home, which you're feeling.
Whereas, and when you walk out of that oryou go on screen and you're talking to
your clients or your friends, that'sthere.
It's almost like you can put on aperformance almost.

(25:40):
You can kind of get away.
It sounds a bit disingenuous, isn't it?
But it's not for now to hear and there isas much as opposed to you're kind of naked
in front of your owner.
husband, aren't you?
For one of a better term.
Yes, but not often.
I walked into that one.
Been married a long time, dear.

(26:01):
Yes.
No, I think this is always something thatused to, I mean, I've been through a lot
of counselling as well.
And I used to think, well, am I lyingabout who I am when I'm with my friends
and I'm with other people?
Am I lying?
And the answer is no, it is exactly who Iam.
But there are different parts of me thatshow up in different ways to different
people, but I'm still that same person.

(26:21):
And if the shit hits the fan and I knowI've overstepped the mark, I will
apologize.
You know, and my mom never apologized tome.
It's really hard for me to say, I'm sorry.
But I will do it.
And I'm getting better and better.
What's your relationship?
Can you say your relationship with yourmom has been difficult?

(26:41):
I want a bit more color on that, but yourrelationship with your children, has that
been difficult as well then do you think?
No.
It hasn't actually, because I wasdetermined not to, I spent from about the
age of 18, I kept away from my mom so thatI wouldn't be, it's a horrible word, but I
felt like I was being infected.

(27:02):
Right.
she means well, and she loves me.
I know she does, but she's had a reallydifficult life and I wish she'd, I wish
she'd live now when she's alive now, but Iwish she'd lived at our age now.
So she'd be open to that help andunderstanding.
Cause I think she'd have had a muchhappier life, but,
So no, I was, and I've had years and yearsand years and years of counseling, helping

(27:25):
myself be ready to be the parent that Iwant to be.
It's counseling because of what your mom,how your mom parented you or because of
the Jewish thing?
Everything.
Right.
Because of, because of my relationshipwith my mom, for sure.
It's a very strong, isn't it?
That strong bond between mother anddaughter.
And because of, I never felt like I fittedin and you know, I messed up, you know,

(27:49):
from.
college onwards, I was very naughty.
I was, I messed up.
I was, I was a wild child.
No, I'm not telling you, but I was.
I mean, I did, I did everything that youshouldn't do.
And am I, and I, you know, I hung aroundwith people I shouldn't have hung around
with because I wanted to be seen.
I wanted to be noticed.

(28:10):
Thomas was talking about this as well,wasn't he?
About hanging around with, and that reallyresonated.
It's like, see me, someone to hang outwith, let's be naughty, let's be crazy.
Cause you want that dopamine hit all thetime.
and I didn't find my people.
So I was always in the wrong place withthe wrong people doing the wrong things,
but having a wild time.
But trying to, trying to get that kind ofvalidation or that, I think that you

(28:33):
didn't get from your, your mom, I guess.
Yeah.
And just from the friends, you know, Istarted, I.
I dumped girls because girls used to makeme feel very uncomfortable.
That's very different now.
I love women, not like that, but I lovewomen and I never used to, I used to be
terrified of them because I remember atthe age of 14, starting a job at Barrett

(28:53):
shoe store, classy.
And they had a woman boss there and shehated me.
I was 14.
I was tall.
I was slim.
I was blonde.
I was pretty.
Right.
And she hated me.
I don't want to sound big headed, but Iwas.
All right.
And she was small.
She was none of those things.
And, and I learned then also that if youare, I don't know, happy, attractive,

(29:19):
women are going to hate you.
And that got repeated over and over again,over and over again in different guises.
So I started to withdraw from womencompletely terrifyingly.
Yeah, especially at that age.
And I didn't know how to handle it.
And I just thought it's because it's me.
So I spent a lot of time with guys.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And was quite, you know, I'm quiteforthright.

(29:41):
Yeah.
And so I was quite, I could hang out withthe guys.
I can hold my own with the guys now.
I mean, yes, I'll hang out with the guys.
I can hold my own with them, but I lovewomen.
I've got great female friends now, which Inever had before.
So this wiggly life then give us, give us,we've kind of gone around a lot, which is,
which has been really interesting, butlet's, let's talk about the kind of like
that from seven, the school and then to18, let's put, put a bit more color on

(30:05):
your journey.
I'm really interested in it.
So, I left school, I went to, I went to aprivate school, from the age of 11 to 16,
because where I lived in Birmingham, theschool I would have gone to probably would
have killed me because it was a, a 99 %sorry wearing female school.

(30:25):
wow.
I was a white blonde Jew.
No way.
I would have, I would not have survivedit.
So my parents scrimped and saved and theygot me into a private school and my sister
went as well.
And it didn't go very well.
I mean, I was, cause I wasn't diagnosedwith everything that I know I've got now.
And I was just always loud and I wouldquestion everything.

(30:46):
So I was always the naughty one, the loudone.
Why are you questioning this?
Why don't you just do as you're told?
I remember spending a lot of time in, inmy headmaster's office on report.
It was always going back on the report.
And then when I left, he basically said tome, you, you, you're worth nothing.
You'll go nowhere.
You're a waste of space.
That's what he said to me.
The education system should be.
torn up and started again, shouldn't itbasically?

(31:09):
Anyway.
Yeah.
I think it was, I won't say too muchbecause of libel and stuff, but there was
something not right there anyway.
Why was a man running a female -onlyschool?
I see.
It can happen, but it was anyway.
I went to college, lost the plotcompletely.
Somehow came away with two Ds.
in chemistry and biology said I wasn'tgoing to go to university like my sister.

(31:32):
She'd gone off to do law.
She was the clever one.
So were you into drinking drugs and thatkind of stuff?
I was drinking.
I was partying.
At that age, probably.
I don't really want to go there, but yeah.
I mean, yeah, I wasn't very well -behaved.
All the usual stuff.
Just the usual stuff.
Well, say usual for people that were beinga bit wild.

(31:57):
But I worked for a year and realized thatI didn't fit in there either.
I wasn't going to go to university.
I didn't need to do that.
That wasn't my thing.
I wasn't clever enough to go touniversity.
Did a year of work, got major, well gotmajor in and got sacked from practically
every job I did.
Give me some reasons why you got sacked.
Because I was really loud and I rememberone, I was working for a bank in the loans
department.
And what you're supposed to do is peoplering in and say, I'd like a house loaner.

(32:20):
They want 5 ,000.
You're supposed to upsell them to 10 or 15,000.
And I go, you sure you need five grand?
I'm so honest.
If you only need five grand while I'mdoing this, could you not get it for
three?
No way.
I go completely against what you're tryingto do here.
And that's me all over.
I will always, sometimes I do it just tobe naughty.
So a bit like the sort of the class clown,the flirt, the kind of like, I don't give

(32:41):
a fuck about boundary.
I'm going to just whatever.
Whatever.
If there was a boundary, I would overstepit.
That's just what I did because I foundthat's how I got my thrills and my kicks.
So I got, and I didn't know they wererecording the calls.
So yeah, I got kicked out of that one.
And I just found people really boring andbase, you know, and I was like, my God,

(33:03):
I'm so energetic.
I'm alive.
These people were in these jobs for life.
And there was nothing wrong with that.
But at 18, I was like, I've got so much togive.
And at that point I thought, right, I willgo to university.
So I don't know what else to do.
I'll go to university.
Did applied chemistry, got a degree inapplied chemistry.
Yes, I know.
Still surprised myself.
And then went into pharmaceutical salesand had the best time of my life.

(33:27):
And in pharmaceutical sales, you get thebest training in the world.
You meet the best people in the world.
I'm still really close to a lot of thosepeople.
Why chemistry and pharmaceutical?
Is that what you wanted to do?
Chemistry is because I loved it.
I understood it.
It made sense.
I think probably the teacher I had atcollege, I liked him and he helped me
understand and learn it.

(33:47):
So on Thomas's podcast, he talked aboutADHD, right?
To interject a little bit.
And he talked about.
like the inability to like be satisfiedwith anything, even in relationships
bouncing from one relation to another.
And now he's sort of, how did, how did theADHD affect your kind of like, were you
quite carefree and kind of like in yourrelationships and everything, everything
you did?

(34:07):
Interestingly, I was quite hyper -focused.
So I had, I met my first serious boyfriendat, I think I was 14 and a half, 15, I
want to say serious, as in, you know, wecommitted, we were boyfriend and
girlfriend and didn't go out with anybodyelse.
I was with him for two years and then Iwas with my next boyfriend for two years.

(34:28):
And it went on.
I was always loyal and yeah, once I'd gotsomeone, I was so relieved.
I think I was relieved because I didn'tfeel safe.
I was like, right, I've got you.
You're mine.
You're mine.
You're not going anywhere.
But funny enough, then I would get bored.
I only ever got dumped once and that brokemy heart.
He was lovely.

(34:49):
but that was the only person that everdumped me.
So I was always doing the, I was alwaysthe one walking away in the end.
Kind of in control of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There was a lot.
So the ADHD thing and the low self-esteem, which is linked to ADHD without a
doubt and the dyslexia and everything, Ithink was just like a perfect storm to
make me feel not good enough.

(35:11):
Yeah.
And I went and chased things and then heldonto them.
Right.
because I was scared to let go.
So you got sacked five or six times?
Four or five, let's not overdo it.
sorry.
One extra.
So this is like your early twenties, no?
No, so that was before I went to, when Igot sacked a lot, it was before I even

(35:32):
went to university.
That was in the first year.
I was really quick.
So I went into pharmaceuticals, had anamazing time, loved it, but I can see how
I got in my own way of success.
And I talk about a lot.
in the book, you know, people withimposter syndrome, how I, how I, I was
never really a very, the best version ofme, but I went through the, you know, the

(35:52):
routine of sales.
I was really good at sales, alwayssmashing sales targets.
And then I went into training, which Iloved, my favorite job in the world, a bit
in management.
then I went into IT for a bit because Iwas allured by money.
And that nearly broke me and nearly killedme because it was vicious and everything
I'd ever felt.
bad about myself came to the fore.

(36:14):
And that's when the counseling startedactually.
And I was probably 28 then.
Then I went back into pharma.
Everything was calm.
It was lovely.
Then I had children, took time out, endedup in the oil and gas industry.
Took on a really interesting role there.
And then, but I was fighting all the timein a male dominated world.

(36:35):
And I remember just sitting there bangingmy head against a brick wall thinking,
These guys are just not listening.
And I thought, you know, if I'm doing thisfor you, I could actually run my own
business doing this.
So I left.
The term nervous breakdown, right?
I'm just, while you're talking, I'mreflecting on my life as well, because
there's a lot of synergies.
I think I've probably had a few of thosenervous breakdowns, but certainly,

(36:59):
certainly quite a number of dark timeswhen I've just, mental health has got the
better of me.
Talk to us about those moments in yourlife.
Cause you've mentioned you've had a lot ofcounseling.
Yeah.
I've never ever had what I would describeas a nervous breakdown ever, but I've had
a lot of very emotionally drainingepisodes and a lot of that.

(37:23):
And I, it was, it was hormonal to behonest.
You know, it was, there was, there was alot of hormonal issues.
so there was a lot going on and it got tothe point where, you know, in, in my life,
know, anybody watching this, it's goingthrough the menopause or anything else
will, or, you know, members period pain oranything like that.

(37:43):
I'm allowed to talk about this on theshow.
Okay.
Good.
Just checking.
you know, the three weeks of every monthwere not mine.
No, really.
I was, I was someone, I was either inpain, someone else lunatic or recovering.
No way.
So weeks, respite a month.
Yeah, it was hellish, absolutely hellish.
So a lot of what I was feeling, yes,Jewish mother.

(38:06):
everything being told I was a waste ofspace, yada, yada, but a lot of that
would, must have been hormonal related aswell.
So yeah, I used to have to go intocounseling to try and regulate, regulate
myself and to learn about who I was.
And I'm really glad that I did becauseeverything, all of that now I use in
everything that I do today.
Yeah.

(38:27):
Yeah.
So I'm 47, you're 52, right?
And I think, I think, you know, we coachleaders, you know, you've got an amazing
book, which I'm going to talk to youabout.
You know, you've, you've gone intobusinesses and turn them from 5 million to
20 million, all these kinds of thingsyou've done.
It's amazing.
Isn't it?
The stuff that you've done.
But I also get days where I justliterally, I couldn't find my way out of a

(38:48):
paper bag in terms of like, I want to sitnext to somebody on a dinner party because
I get social anxiety.
It's kind of like sometimes there's kindof one extreme.
I get the sense with yourself, right?
You've done all these things, but I knowwe're getting older now, but.
Sometimes we just have bad days, right?
We do have bad days.
You know what though?

(39:09):
I am, I do get social anxiety, but you'dnever know because as soon as I'm, it's
that acting piece.
As soon as I'm in the room, I'm on.
And it's because of my, because I have amassive extrovert nature.
You have much more of an introvertedpreference.
So for people with an introvertedpreference where social anxiety is a
thing, they will literally hide themselvesaway and not do the thing.

(39:32):
Whereas.
Yeah.
people like me, maybe because I'mextrovert, maybe because I have a bit of
ADHD as well and I like to feel the fearand go do it anyway.
I will go and do it.
But I have had moments where I'vewithdrawn and I've not gone and done the
thing or spoken to the person and had thebad day.
I absolutely do have plenty of bad days.
Because it's a, I think it was you orsomeone mentioned that you get that.

(39:54):
And I met you at, I think Leah's party andit was the first time I met you and kind
of like, I think you mentioned it to methen.
It was like, I just think sometimes youjust can't tell.
And this is why I always say, and you talkabout being kind and stuff like that, but
I just don't like people who, like Thomasis a good example.
I think a lot of people, and me includedto a certain extent, he was at that party.

(40:16):
He was, and he's admitted it on thepodcast.
He was pretty aggressive.
He was at the Christmas party.
The Leah's party.
I didn't know him then.
Yeah.
And he was all over the place actually.
And I think he got a lot of judgment fromthat.
But then I got to know him.
nobody's ADHD and I saw him in a differentlight.
And that's what Kinamandoro did for meactually, right?

(40:37):
When we got to Kinamandoro, there's peoplethere and I was judging them based on
their status or what they wore, but thatwas such a leveler for me.
So over the last kind of few months, whatI've really grown as a person is I've got
no right to judge bloody anybody.
And I think that whenever I start to dothat, I then look at myself.

(41:01):
So,
What's your view on kind of like, I think,I think on LinkedIn, I think it's almost,
unless you've got X number of followers,you'll get X number of likes.
People don't want to associate with it,which I don't like.
What do you think?
I think it's true.
It's really true.
I don't care.
I genuinely don't care.
I'm having such a nice time on there,chatting with people.

(41:25):
and doing my thing.
And if people like it, they like it.
Sometimes my posts get loads, sometimesthey get very little.
but I don't go looking for, in fact, I'mactually put off almost if people have got
too many followers.
Cause they're, what annoys me is you getto a point where, and you're really good
actually, most of the time is you docomment and support other people.

(41:49):
but most people once they hit above 40 or50 ,000.
Yeah.
You just muck on their shoe.
They no longer even respond.
And I find that really rude.
So if, if I ever get to the point whereI'm at that state, you know, in that state
where I've got that many, I will still goon and support people and speak to people.
Hold me to that.
You're probably never going to get to 40or 50, so I'm safe.

(42:10):
But I mean, I appreciate that.
Probably really busy and everything else.
But I'm really busy.
You're really busy just because I've gotnearly 11 ,000 doesn't mean I'm not busy.
I'm really busy doing my job every day.
You know, two or three clients.
every day.
So just give us a lens into what you dosort of with your clients.

(42:30):
Well, I help them see a lot of what theycan't see.
A lot of the time there's people don'tknow what they're doing and why they're
doing it.
So a lot of my work is, maybe I'm, maybe Igo in and I'm, they want to learn a
leadership skill, but actually a lot ofall of my work and also all of it is

(42:51):
around.
building, self -awareness, emotionalintelligence, self -control.
If they've got imposter syndrome, thenthat's separate.
I run the separate program for that.
but it's always about helping them be thebest version of themselves that they can
be with the right intent all the time andhelping them be happier and healthier.

(43:11):
That's it.
You know, one of the, the best results Igot from someone who'd just been on.
they'd done a one -to -one with me on theEagle program for imposter syndrome and
things like, you know, this guy had lostthree stone in weight.
His golf swing had improved.
It's just stuff that, and you just comeaway going, I'm so happy that I can do
that for people.
And, and, and Monday I had a relativelynew client and really severe imposter

(43:35):
syndrome.
And I just talked to her calmly, talked toher calmly.
She just went, my God, you just, you couldsee her welling up because someone
understood.
I help people feel heard.
And I look after them.
I really care.
And I look after them.
And you love what you do, right?
You're enjoying it.
I love it so, honestly.
That's half the battle though, right?
Isn't it?

(43:55):
I mean, I couldn't do it if I didn't loveit.
It's honest.
I've got the best job in the world.
I really have.
Where do you want to take the rest of yourlife though?
Is there anything you haven't done youwant to do yet?
Do you feel as if you're fulfilling yourpotential?
No, no, I think there's more.
And although I help my clients plan forthe future.
I'm not a massive planner.

(44:15):
I think part of this is just the way mybrain works is I do know, I do know that
what I want to be earning, I know thepeople I want to be working with.
And I know what I want to be known for.
So if someone wants help with impostersyndrome, I'd like them the first person
to think of is Sarah Farmer.
If somebody wants to work on emotionalintelligence, improve their leadership
skills, capability, I'd like them to thinkof Sarah Farmer.

(44:39):
In certain industries like pharmaceutical,life sciences, engineering, those are my
sweet spots.
Do I want to run a business?
I remember talking to Melissa about thisas well.
We went on one of our walks.
She's like, do I want to run a businesswhere I've got an office and I walk in as
the boss and everyone says hi.
Used to, but that was about ego.
Yeah.
Now I don't.

(44:59):
I've actually got associates that do workwith me and I love them.
They're amazing.
They're better than me at a lot of things.
I don't have to employ them.
Something will come.
I am going to do a Ted talk.
I want to do that.
I keep saying it and I've been saying itfor a few years.
I am going to do a Ted talk.
What are you going to do on?
It's going to be on behavior change, thepower that we have in ourselves, because

(45:21):
what really winds me up is, you know, I'ma woman and I'm a neurodiverse woman, but
I don't want to use that as an excuse.
I want to use that as a tool to help meget places and do things better.
But I've learned to use that rather thansaying to people, yeah, it's because I'm a
woman.
it's because I'm neurodiverse.

(45:41):
It's because of this.
It's because I'm 52.
And I want to help more and more peoplesee how much more control they can have
over their future.
If they start to understand themselves andstop trying to be something they're not,
or using what they haven't got as a reasonto give up.
No, absolutely.
So the ADHD, what's been the mostdifficult part of that, do you think, in

(46:05):
your life?
Relationships.
Really?
Yeah.
Because it makes really, really volatile.
I'm really volatile.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm...
I remember my husband describing me manyyears ago as like a formula one car, with
a relatively novice driver in it, becauseyou never know when it's going to spin off
the track.
Yeah.

(46:25):
You can accelerate or literally crash anymoment.
And there's a lot of that.
There's a lot of highs and lows.
Luckily he's really calm, really, really,really a very gentle soul and very
understanding.
But yeah, I mean, it's, I have highenergy.
So in relationships.
I'm looking for something new all thetime.

(46:46):
That's what you know, why Kili?
Yeah, I'll do Kili.
Why not?
Let's walk up a mountain.
I've never done that before.
I'm always looking for something, butactually I get my thrills and my kicks
from my clients and my job standing infront of 400 people.
God, that gives me a thrill.
Does it?
Yeah.
So when you're feeling this exhilaration,does your husband, how does your husband

(47:09):
deal with that then?
Does he sort of tell you you're being atwat?
Sorry.
bad, bad term, but you know, I wish youwould.
Right.
So he goes the other way.
He hides.
Does he?
Yeah.
No, I wish you would.
This is one of our, this is one of ourongoing battles is stop being so nice to
me.
You know, just you've got, you, you, youprefer it if you told you straight, right?

(47:31):
my God.
Yeah.
Because when people do, and I do havepeople in my life that do that, I've got
two very, very close friends who will.
Yeah.
And they will put me straight back in mybox.
And I like, fuck.
I'm back again.
I'm like, okay, yeah, I'll be a bit like aLabrador puppy.
Slap on the nose, put you back in your boxfor a bit.
But for me, it's about, if you don't havethe self -respect for people to treat you

(47:56):
the way you want to be treated, you'regoing to get more of that.
That's true.
That's what we talked about earlier,wasn't it?
Yeah.
Yes.
It all links back to the same thing.
Because I was going to ask you one of thequestions I had written down was, why do
you think bad things happen to goodpeople?
And I think we're answering the questionnow to an extent.
they're too nice.
What do you think?
So part in the book, I talk about the fivelevels of imposter syndrome and people, a

(48:18):
lot of people who know about impostersyndrome aren't happy with that at all,
but I have my reasons for it.
and I talk about the two normal levels.
One is extreme imposter syndrome, which isthe very normal imposter syndrome that
people talk about.
And the second one is where you are,you're just, you're not really in that
worrying all the time thinking I'm notgood enough every single minute of the
day, but you're absolutely

(48:40):
And you are deferring to people andputting yourself down a bit.
I see.
It's a little bit too...
Yeah, soft.
Icky.
Soft or whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it makes you a target.
Yeah.
So then people go, well, you don't rateyourself.
And people will literally see more of you.
I've been watching some of my content ofabout two or three years ago.

(49:01):
I look at it now and think, fuck me.
I'm a different man to what I even twoyears ago.
I look at my...
I was almost like, almost like no wondersome of the stuff's happening to me.
Cause I think I was a little bit of afucking Labrador actually.
A little bit of a...
Well you just, you take just open to it.
But I think, I don't think, I don't blamethat version of Chris because of what I've
been through.

(49:22):
I'd almost kind of like, I'm with like afine wine.
What I'm trying to say there is, I'mtrying to give myself confidence.
It sounds like it's arrogant.
What I'm trying to say is that I don'tthink, but I think I'm comfortable saying
that now on camera and people can listento that.
I don't give a fuck.
I actually think I'm a good catch.
I actually think I'm a good person.
I actually think I'm attractive.
I'm saying that with confidence, notarrogance.

(49:43):
Whereas before I'd always say, I say Icompliment myself and then I water it
down.
Fuck that.
Fuck that shit.
Yeah.
That's, that is a classic sign of theimposter at play, isn't it?
It's like, I think I'm really good atthis, but actually no, you're better.
Yeah.
Or something.
You know, I wrote a post on, I think itwas last Friday and I've got to the point
now where I'm very happy to say.

(50:04):
probably one of the best coaches outthere.
And I don't care who's listening to this.
I probably am.
Or as good as one of the best coaches outthere.
Then you won some big award or somethinglike that or something.
I saw something you had.
I was one of the top 10 coaches for gamechanging success.
It was our US insider.
That was nice.
But I'm now, you know, I said, if you wanta really good coach, that's me.

(50:29):
It is me.
And it's not that I'm big headed.
It's because I know I am.
Finally, I'm comfortable saying I am.
It's almost like I get, I think the oldSarah 10 years ago would have looked at
the new Sarah and gone, you, you arrogantlittle twat, whatever.
I wouldn't have been comfortable.
Yeah.
No, I would have said it.
What I know, I tell you what I would havedone is I would have said it and then, but

(50:52):
I'd have said it in a way that soundedhorrible, arrogant.
And that's what I was leaking.
I talk about leaking a lot to my clients.
What I was leaking was.
I'm really good at this, but it comesacross aggressive and forceful, not
assertive and calm.
So, and the way we leak out ourinformation in how we speak or how, you

(51:12):
know, how have we do it.
That matters.
And I didn't get that until a few yearsago.
Well, probably about five or six yearsago.
Yeah.
So what are the major differences betweenthe old Sarah and the current Sarah?
Karma.
Older, wiser, happier, more confident.

(51:38):
Yeah.
I'm really much more able to deal with thethings that used to really, really upset
me.
Yeah.
Just that they still happen.
And less bothered about what people thinkas well, I think.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you know what?
Bring it on.
You know, I was listening to radio twotoday, because I'm 52.

(52:00):
And, they were talking about peoplegetting trolled online.
If you show up online, you're going to gettold.
And that's one of the reasons why peopledon't want to show up on LinkedIn.
They're terrified of being told.
And it does happen.
And occasionally people, what used tohappen was if someone said anything
against what I'd said, I've got to respondand I've got to do this.
Now I just thank them so much for theirpoint of view.

(52:22):
And I genuinely mean it because I'mthinking.
Because there's always another side.
What can I learn from that?
What can I learn from it?
And if it's rude, I just say, thanks foryour point of view, interesting way you've
put it across.
And that's the thing, I've had a fewnarcissists in my life, I've had a few
horrible people.
And I always think the people that comeinto your life, whether they're good, bad
or indifferent, they're always there togive you something to learn from, I think.

(52:47):
And I think that's how I frame things now.
And I'm pretty grateful.
There's not much that can affect me thesedays.
know, and I think that sometimes you needpeople like that to actually put a mirror
to yourself and go actually.
So sometimes the reaction is almost as badas what the crime to an extent, you know
what I mean?
Yeah, it is.

(53:07):
It really is.
And I wish, I wish we'd all learned a longtime ago that when bad things happen, it's
a learning opportunity.
I wish, I wish we'd learned that.
Kids aren't even learning that now.
No.
You know, my daughter was screamed at incollege not so long ago because it wasn't
just her, she was screaming at everyone,calling them stupid and what was the point

(53:29):
in them being there.
But they took that to heart.
You know, there's, we need to be liftingkids up, right?
We're big enough and old enough and badenough now to sort ourselves out, but we
need to be getting them at a young age andhelping them see how to behave together.
And it's not okay to be the way they'rebeing with each other.

(53:50):
really kind of like demeaning and allthat.
And if they are like that to you, have thestrength to walk away.
Cause you don't, cause people will alwaysbe like that, but have the strength to
walk away.
But we're not, we're not teachingresilience.
We're not teaching, we're not teachingenough for our kids.
And with the onset of social media beingin their faces 24 seven, I'm scared, but

(54:11):
you know, that's a whole other story,isn't it?
Well, on the scared thing, what scares youthe most and what has scarred you the
most?
What scares me the most is that mychildren...
won't believe in themselves.

(54:33):
They are both, they're both amazing andthey don't have the confidence that I've
got, that I've learned to have, or theydon't have that.
Maybe they don't have that energy that Ihad to masquerade as confidence at least.
And all I hope and all I worry about is Iwant them to be happy, to be loved, to be
respected and, to live the best life theycan.

(54:57):
I think that's probably what all parentswant.
Yeah.
So you want them to feel confident intheir own skin, right?
You know, they're so, so amazing.
Honestly, they're so beautiful.
16 and 18.
So they're becoming adults.
Yeah.
And they're both so, so I just adore themand they just don't see how amazing they

(55:17):
are.
And I know I'm the mom.
Of course I'm going to say that, but theyare amazing.
Yeah.
It's difficult being a parent, isn't it?
Because you want to, you want, you don'twant to over parent them.
You want, but you also don't, you wantthem to have the best life.
It's.
It's really, it's hard.
You say what scares you?
Where is you?
My daughter, we took her out of college.

(55:38):
She's not finishing her A levels becauseshe became so unwell.
With what?
She's just been diagnosed with OCD, ADHDand autism.
no.
How does that make you feel though?
Well, now I'm getting used to the idea.
I felt awful.
You go through all that.
What did we do?
Which part of it's mine?
That's why I got diagnosed.

(55:58):
I was like, that's something's come fromme.
OCD comes from the other side.
from the farmer's side.
Autism definitely from the farmer's side,I think.
But she struggled all her life makingfriends.
And so I thought it was just because shewas like me, but I can see so much of what
she struggled with, always tried to bewith friends that didn't want to be with
her.
And she's, she's self -harm really badly.

(56:20):
And I was worried for her life.
Wow.
How long ago was that?
It stopped three months ago.
That was recent.
it's been hell.
We have been through hell.
She's been through hell, sorry.
We didn't know a lot of what was going on,but when we found out everything that
she'd been doing and, and the, I'm notgoing to call them lies, the stories that

(56:42):
she'd been telling people because she's sounwell, severely depressed as well because
all this stuff's going on.
we knew we had to take her out for her ownsafety and keep her safe.
Because she was undiagnosed.

(57:03):
So she has spent her whole life since theage of seven, bizarrely.
No way.
Not fitting into any group.
Always getting bullied.
A repeat of what happened to you.
But she was, she's the quiet version ofme.
I was a really extrovert loud one.
So she couldn't hide it as well as you.
Yeah.
She would get bullied.
Yeah.
Whereas I would just get ignored.

(57:24):
Yeah.
It's kind of different.
So, but people, she, you know, she wasphysically attacked, you know, last year
at school.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I say physically attacked, she was pushedand prodded and sworn at.
I mean, it was horrendous, but she neverknew how to stand up for herself.
So how did she get through that?
And how have you helped her?
How have you got, you know, you can'tdiminish the impact of something on her,

(57:46):
but also yourself as a mom.
Yeah.
That's another reason why I'm back incounseling.
you're in counseling now?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Back into it because it's just, yeah, it'stoo much.
It's too much.
It's been really tough, really tough forus all.
So she...
has got a, she ended up seeing apsychiatrist, which is hard to get.
That's a whole other story.

(58:06):
She then went, because she hit 18, thechild psychologist wouldn't see her
anymore.
We've got her now an adult one.
He can't see her until July.
So she probably will need medication.
But what we did was we took her away fromthe thing that was causing her most harm,
which was trying to do A levels.
She's never, she's not cut out for it.
She's super bright, but she cannot retaininformation.
And so it was killing her.

(58:26):
She was feeling more and more stupid.
So we took her out of college.
She's a horse person.
She's always been mad at my horses andshe's worked at a yard all her life and
she's now working full time at showjumping yard and she looks amazing.
Her face is like, she's glowing.
I'm so chuffed for her and for you.
It hasn't solved the problem by the way,cause she's still, we've still, but so the

(58:48):
next thing is cancelling possiblymedication, but keeping an eye on her all
the time.
I have to give her her pills in themorning.
You know, it's, I'm back to being like a.
a mom of a very young child because I haveto monitor everything because it's
dangerous.
So the reason why you've gone tocounseling, is it because you, is it
resurfacing some of the feelings andemotions that you had or is it, is it kind

(59:13):
of like you feel associated guilt becauseof that?
So much guilt, so much guilt.
And you know, we, we, we, we weredesperate to get an adult psychiatrist and
I found one.
And I should have known the fact he was soeasy to get hold of, should have given me
a warning.
And he was terrible, absolutely terrible.
He made Teague and my daughter feel reallynervous.

(59:34):
She made me stay in the room.
It was online, but she made me stay withher.
And he basically looked at me and said, sowhy do you think this has happened?
He said, what were you like as a parent?
Did you ever get angry?
And I said, well, yeah, of course I gotangry.
I said, I used to have really bad hormonalrelated issues.
And on his referral letter, he wroteprobably due to mother's anger.
No.
Mike, some of these people that are inthese positions, they should...

(59:56):
I don't think he was even a psychiatrist.
I think he was playing at it.
It doesn't help me.
So that made me feel, I know it's nottrue, but it just made me go right back.
Let's go back and let's go and talk tosomeone about this.
So you're not necessarily coping with thefact that that's happening to your
daughter and rightly so.
If he was advising a client...

(01:00:16):
I think I am coping.
okay.
No, I think I am coping, but if Iwasn't...
I'm doing something about it.
But I didn't feel like I was coping, whichis why I did something about it.
I know it's a shame, but you're right.
I think that by the very nature of yougoing out and getting the help means that
you are aware, you're accountable.

(01:00:38):
When you're not accountable, you'reaccepting that you can't deal with that on
your own.
If one of your clients came to you withthat situation, what would you say to
Sarah about that situation?
What about the fact that they'd beenlabeled as the problem?
Yeah.
And, and, or what advice would you givethem in terms of how they, how they would

(01:01:01):
cope with that situation with theirdaughter as well?
Well, the interesting thing is, you know,as, as a coach, we, we have to be careful
not to advise, don't we?
Unless we're in an advisory mentoringcapacity.
So that's what I find hardest because I dolove to.
It's really, really difficult, isn't it?
It's like, I can see what you could dobetter.

(01:01:23):
So I do coach mental all the time.
I would say look after yourself and go andspeak to someone.
You've got to go and speak to someone.
I recommend counseling to an awful lot ofmy clients.
Not because coaching doesn't work, becauseI do think we do need to unpick all that
stuff that's happened so many years ago tolook to the future and...

(01:01:46):
I feel like I've been unwired now.
I was such a muddled mess.
Yes, yes.
And now it's all like, Do you know what?
This is music to my ears.
I think I've said it on every singlepodcast.
I always say that you can't go, if you'vegot stuff going on, you can't go forward
until you go back and you sort of unwireand then rewire yourself.
And people say, yeah, but you can't keepgoing back.
You never go forward.
no, you do.
So I'm an NLP practitioner as well.

(01:02:09):
Okay.
So I'm an NLP, the person that trained meto do that.
was very, they're very anti counselingbecause they don't believe in staying
looking in the past for too long.
I'm right in the middle because I lovelooking into the past.
I do it with all my clients, even thoughI'm not a, you know, a counselor or a
psychologist.
I do do that because you need to seewhat's driving the patterns of today.
But without counseling, I would not behere.

(01:02:34):
I would not be right here.
I wouldn't be talking to you.
I wouldn't have my two children.
I don't know what I'd be doing, but itwouldn't be the life that I'm in now.
I think going back will enable you to thenmap out the future properly.
You can't map out the future until you'vegot the wires right.
Completely.
You're too muddled.
I say to people, it's like you're lookinginto a muddy pond and all you can see is

(01:02:56):
mud.
Until you've got the mud out, you can'tsee the bottom.
You don't know which way is up really.
It's just...
This is why I love you in terms of likeyour, your raw ability, just to be honest
about your situation, where you are, whatyou've been through and your human being.
And you, you sometimes we all need helpand we've, we've got shit going on.

(01:03:17):
And I think that's the difference betweenthe people I want in my life and the
people that aren't, you know, there's somany people that you call it imposter
syndrome.
I think there's so many imposters outthere actually.
There's every, that's not everybody.
Everybody's probably going to experienceit some stage in their lives.
Some people have got it seriously.
Some of us have just got it moderately.
And when you know how to control it.

(01:03:39):
But there's no shame in saying that you'vegot mental health problems or you've got
ADHD or you've got challenges or you'regoing through shit.
You can't handle your relationship withyour husband, your wife, your daughter.
Just, just be honest.
You can be honest.
I think it's about who you're honest withwhen you're honest and why you're doing
it.
There's a lot of people that are doing itjust to get.
Get the sympathy.
There's a difference.

(01:04:00):
And you can always tell.
So when I put stuff out there, it'sbecause it's part of something.
I won't ever go, look, by the way, I'vejust been diagnosed with this or I've just
got that.
I feel really sorry for anybody that's gotany illnesses or any problems whatsoever.
But sometimes we need to use our storiesto empower other people.
And that's when it's the right intent,it's all good.

(01:04:20):
What would you like to leave the audiencewith in terms of people, you know,
18, 20 year old breaking into the businessworld or life in general.
Talk us about your book a little bit.
Just leave us some passing words ofwisdom.
Well, what I say is learn about yourselfreally early.
This should be part of school life.
Learn about yourself, learn tocommunicate, learn what triggers you,

(01:04:42):
understand why.
Maybe we're not old enough when we'rechildren to do that, but at least let's
start talking about it.
Both my kids are very self -aware becausethey hear me talking about it all the
time, so they can learn it.
Yeah.
Trust yourself and go, don't worry somuch.
Go for it.
Go and do what you love and you can't gofar wrong from that.

(01:05:03):
And if anyone tells you you can't, youshow them that you can.
Definitely.
And that's why I wrote the book.
Talked really quickly, 10 seconds aboutthe book.
Wrote the book because I was told I wasstupid and I wasn't going to go anywhere
in life.
And someone said, write a book.
And I went, I will.
And I did.
And I finished it.
And not everyone will write a book intheir life.
That is a massive...

(01:05:23):
achievement.
Congratulations.
Thank you, Sarah.
Absolutely delighted, honored.
I want to speak to you for five hours, notone.
We'll get you back on.
Thank you for coming on the show.
Thank you for having me.
Finally, I've been asking for a long time.
Thank you so much.
Thanks, Chris.
The Purpose of their leadership podcast issponsored by Orca Pay Group.
We've chosen to partner with Orca PayGroup because they are an umbrella and

(01:05:44):
payroll company that leads with trust andtransparency and cultivating during
partnerships with sustainable growth.
They aspire to live in a world whereumbrella and payroll companies are
trusted, where confidence is earned andtransparency is essential.
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