111: Stephen McGhee - The Power of Pause: Redefining Leadership in a Fast-Paced World - The Quantum Biology Collective Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Meredith Oke (00:01):
Stephen McGee, welcome to the QVC podcast. I'm
really excited for this conversation.

Stephen McGhee (00:08):
Me too, Meredith. We've had a few touch ins
before, so it's really cool to be here with you.

Thank you. And a little thank you to our mutual
godfather, Peter Bort. He's always sweet,
sprinkling lovely people into my life. Thanks,
Peter. All right, so let's start with your story
and how you came to be where you are, which is as

(00:39):
a leadership coach and a coach to highly
successful people. You've led people up mountains
and down rapids and spoken on stages, but you
started out in a much more traditional role in
life in a corporate environment. How did you get.
How did that journey unfold to where you are now?

Well, we'll do this short version, Meredith. If
you want to dive deeper into any of the specifics
of it, we can do that. But like a lot of us
listening, I grew up with meager beginnings. My
mother reared four kids on her own, and she, you

(01:23):
know, was going out trying to make a living. So
sometimes she was waiting tables at night. You
know, we were living off of whatever tips she had
as a cocktail waitress, etc. So we didn't have
much. So there was, you know, to begin with, the.
Just the mindset I had had some limitations in
it. Like, I don't know how anyone ever could do

(01:44):
this or that or this or that based on the mindset
I had, because there was just a lot of things we
couldn't afford due to the limited resources. So
I mentioned that to you because it put into my
heart and mind that, oh, I just think money would
solve all my problems as a young man. So I
started to. I made it through school. That's a

(02:06):
longer story. I did get a degree in business
administration in finance. And somehow, some way,
I think, because I interviewed. Well, fast
forward through college to my first job in the
financial services and banking industry. And I

(02:27):
spent many years climbing the corporate ladder.
And at some point, maybe I'm four to five years
in this corporate climbing of the ladder, I get
asked to be on what we call the succession plan
at a large financial services organization
underneath Nations Bank. And so I was learning a

(02:51):
lot about leadership, but I was also learning a
lot about how people operated in the boardroom,
how people meaning how the operations went, how
the conversations went, how the communications
went. And there was so much of it that I didn't
like. Like, it felt like we were out of integrity
and that we were doing things to just get the

(03:12):
deal. In the midst of all that, Meredith, I Was
doing a lot of entertaining to get the deal
because money costs are all the same. For those
of you that understand a little bit about
financial services, investment banking industry,
you know, the money cost is the same. So how do
you really get a deal? You get a deal because

(03:34):
you're really good at business development or
getting clients through entertainment. So I did a
lot of traveling. I was really good at the game
of politics in corporate America. I ate out
almost every night. There was a lot of alcohol
involved and a high degree of stress. I remember

(03:56):
one night in particular, Meredith, where I was
trying to go to sleep at night and my body was
just pouring sweat from the stress, like I was
soaking my sheep. I would wake up like at 2am and
I couldn't go back to sleep and my body was
inflamed and I was way out of touch with nature,

(04:17):
which I know we're going to talk about later. I
was. My circadian rhythm was way out of whack. My
body was way out of whack. So long story short, I
end up sick with a blood clot in my left arm and
it was about 9 to 10 inches long. And I was so
afraid of what was happening with the swelling

(04:38):
and it was blue and all of that that I just
avoided it, I ignored it until one night we were
sitting at dinner with my family and my sister in
law said, you, you really should get that
checked. And so it scared me enough that night
that I went straight to the emergency room at
Swedish Medical center in Denver, Colorado. And

(05:01):
within a few minutes they've determined that I've
got this blood clot. And I don't know, Meredith,
how much you know about blood clots, but they're
painful, but they can be very dangerous because
it breaks off and it can travel to a major organ
and they can kill you. So I ended up in intensive

(05:23):
care and I was in intensive care for eight days,
which is like a lot of things in life. It was
horrific and a blessing all in the same breath.
One of the blessings was I survived, you know,
that I actually lived through it. Eight days in
intensive care means, you know, we're really.

Yeah, especially when you just walked in after
dinner.

Especially.

Hey, thought I'd get this checked out. Eight days
in intensive care later. Wow, that's good you
went in.

It's really good. I went in for many reasons. But
the real linchpin for me wasn't about me. It was
about a man who had come in from a motorcycle
accident. He was in intensive care in a bed next
to me. And if you've ever been in intensive care,
in most hospitals, you're separated not by a

(06:20):
room, but by a. By a curtain. So I'm again awake
in the middle of the night, and I can hear this
man who I don't know, but I can hear his pain. I
can hear his suffering. But most impactful was I
heard his breathing start to slow down. And
eventually he took his last breath. And I heard

(06:44):
it. I heard the sigh. It's almost as if I could
feel his spirit leaving his body. And it was. You
know, eventually, you know, everyone comes
running in, and they try to resuscitate, but they
don't. The man passes. And in that moment,
Meredith, I made a decision. So many decisions

(07:08):
about my life. And the rest of the story
continues from there. But in that moment, I was
like, I am not freaking doing what I've been
doing. I am not wasting one precious moment of
this beautiful thing called life doing anything
that I don't really believe in or that I really.

(07:28):
That I don't really want to be doing. So I don't
believe in obligation. I believe in commitments.
And that's the short version, Meredith. I don't
want it to be just talking straight through our
time, because I know you have a lot of questions
and a lot to insert into this, but that's the
basic start of my work, of my moving into the

(07:51):
world of leadership advisement, which I've been
doing now for 30 years.

Wow. It's interesting to me because, you know, a
lot of people could have that experience but not
have that outcome. Do you feel that you were
primed for that in some way or working toward it?

I.

And then when the moment arrived, it was, like,
open.

I mean, I knew I couldn't. And maybe your
listeners can appreciate this. When we are on a
path. When I am on a path that I know I can't
sustain, I know that there's something I want or
must change. But sometimes I wait until I get
thrown down the stairs to get the message.

Can you hear me? I can relate.

Everyone out there ought to be raising their hand
right now.

Hands up.

Hopefully we get wise. Hopefully we get some
wisdom along the way to go. No. These are signs
that I'm off track. I'm off journey. I'm off
path. My soul isn't happy. Physically,
emotionally, mentally. I'm out of whack, and I
want to do something about that. So, no, at that
time in my life, I wouldn't have. That was like

(09:16):
being. That was like being thrown down 20
staircases in eight days. And it woke me up. It
had me be aware of what I was doing.

Wow. And when you work with people, because I
think there's also this idea that sometimes in
order to wake up, we have to make all of these
drastic changes in our lives. I know you work now
as a coach to people who work, you know, in the
corporate world or in the. In the financial

(09:49):
world, and they like. It kind of works for them.
And I just want to talk about the idea of being
attuned to what does or doesn't work for you, for
you. Like you were saying you could tell that the
life you were living was not aligned, it was not
working. How do you open it up for people to

(10:13):
understand if there's some periphery changes that
need to be made or if they're truly on the wrong
path? Because I guess what I'm getting at is I
think sometimes we have this idea like, oh, if I
want to grow spiritually, I can't be in the
corporate world or I can't have this type of job.
And I'm not sure that that's true, but it is true

(10:36):
that it has to be working for you. What are your
thoughts?

Well, it's such a beautiful, beautiful question.
And the last thing I would want to convey today
is that the corporate world is wrong for
everyone. There are some company cultures that
are flat out toxic. And in those toxic cultures,
you know, people have to make their individual,

(11:01):
unique choices about how they navigate all of
that. There are some people that were. That
really thrive in the job I was doing. You know,
they really would throw. I wasn't built for it.
So I think the key is know thyself. Like, you
really want to know who you are, and you. You

(11:22):
really want to pay attention to the signs and the
symptoms. I think sometimes, and with my clients,
they might have an overwhelm or they might, you
know, be feeling like they're eating out too much
or they're away from their family too much or
whatever the case might be. Those can be small,
incremental and nuanced adjustments where a

(11:45):
person has to be able to set clear boundaries
with the culture, with their direct reports, with
the chairman of the board or whatever it is. And
that's where I come in and really support people
in saying, speak your truth in leadership. That's
everything. Because integrity in leadership is so

(12:08):
highly important to being effective that if a
person is lying to themselves, they're probably
lying to other people. So this is where these. It
can be. To answer your question more
specifically, it might be small Adjustments that
support a person in thriving in an environment
because they set some clear boundaries about. I'm

(12:31):
not going to every. Entertaining dinner every
night and drinking four drinks. You know, I'm
just not. That's not for me at this time in my
life. And I'm setting clear boundaries.

Yeah, yeah, that really makes sense. And I think,
yeah, absolutely. Because I think sometimes we
get the idea and then it's like, okay, well I'm,
you know, especially let's say if you're a
practitioner or you think, okay, well, I have to
own my own business. But again, not everyone is
built to own a business. Sometimes, you know, I

(13:04):
think it's fine to be an employee or to work, to
work for someone else. And it's like being able
to. Yeah. Suss out what is going to work for me
versus what I think I'm supposed to be doing
based on what I've somehow been influenced to
think.

Yeah, I think people can find fulfillment in a
lot of different ways. I think a person just has
to be aligned with themselves in such a way that
they're living into some form of their truth so
that they're not wearing themselves out day in
and day out, because that's just not sustainable.
And it's not result oriented either. I mean, you

(13:44):
can argue that it doesn't feel good, but the
greater argument is when people don't have
discretionary energy, creative generative energy
in their world, they typically don't feel that
fulfilled. So a lot of this is, as I said
earlier, it's sustained, nuanced changes where a

(14:04):
person let's, let's look at one specific example.
Like people have. I've been in organizations
where there's three minute response time. It's
not a mandate, but it's like three minute
response time on email is what's common. So
instead of working on your project, you're
working on responding to an email because you're

(14:25):
in the thread, but it isn't productive. So those
are changes that can be made extrinsically that
help a person to be more settled intrinsically.

Right. I love what you just said. Discretionary
energy. That is a good phrase. Say more about
that. Because so many of us come into like the
health and healing space due to energy deficits.
And I know for myself I, I spend my energy like,

(14:58):
like a credit card in overdraft. So I'm really
interested. I'm interested. I love this idea of
discretionary energy. Say more about that.

Well, I mean, it's. Imagine it's an overflow.
Like you're filled up. You know, on a quantum
biology level, you know, your, your, your cells
are charged, right. And you've got some room when
that happens, to live fully and to stay well,
like, immunity's up, cognitive functions up, all

(15:34):
those kinds of things are jamming. So
discretionary energy, when I speak about it in
leadership, it's like your workforce is doing
what they need to do, but even more because they
want to. And this is when we are fully alive.
It's like when you can. When you can be in the
presence of someone that's that filled up, it's

(15:56):
like a joyful encounter because they're not
holding back. And unfortunately, in a lot of
organizations, people are just doing as little as
they possibly can to get by because they're just
trying to get to the weekend. You know, they
start on Monday and they talk about the weekend,
and then they get to Wednesday and they're
talking about what they're going to do the next

(16:18):
weekend instead of really feeling fulfilled and
generating through creativity in their work,
whatever the work is. And it doesn't need to be
fancy work. It can be any kind of thing where a
person's like, I'm going to give this my all
today, because they can, because they want to.
They're willing to, but they also. They know that

(16:40):
they can.

Right? Yeah. And I think this is one of the
reasons that I was really excited to do this
interview, because we can get all of our inputs
correct, so to speak, and optimize our circadian
rhythms and eat well and do our outdoor time and
go for walks. But if the way that we've

(17:04):
structured our life is taking our energy or not
in alignment with who we are, we're still. Still
fighting the flow in some, so to speak. Like, I
don't know, maybe you can. Maybe you can hear
what I'm trying to ask better than I can ask it,
but it's like there are pieces beyond, you know,

(17:28):
beyond just setting everything up to be healthy.
There are pieces in terms of how we make
decisions, how we live our lives, like what you
were just saying, that are still going to put us
in that energy deficit, are still going to work
against our intrinsic ability to be healthy if we

(17:52):
don't understand how to look at those things as
well.

Yeah. So I've listened to your podcast a number
of times. I love the ones I've listened to your
guests really resonate with me. I'm learning so
much from you, Meredith, and from your guests.
But one thing I think we all agree on and how I
say it is what's normal isn't normal. So we think
it's normal to wake up tired. We think it's

(18:19):
normal to barely get through the day. We think
it's normal for these maladies. And I don't need
to list them because you've got plenty of guests
that can list more of them than I could. But, you
know, just obesity, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune
problems are not normal at the level that we're

(18:41):
seeing them. And you've had lots of podcasts
where people state the stats, you know, on that
stuff. So I go, first thing we got to do is wake
up and go, what I'm experiencing as exhaustion
isn't normal. And that my body can realign with
the proper principles and protocols of quantum
biology. And it's so powerful. And I would say,

(19:04):
Meredith, nobody's exempt from that. So if
there's someone out there going, yeah, but you
don't know how hard I've tried, and you don't
know how sick I really am. I would say believing
is seeing. And we live in a world that makes that
really hard because we live in a world that is
seeing is believing. So if seeing is believing,

(19:26):
you look, you watch the commercials and you start
to believe that, what, a pill from a
pharmaceutical company with 15 really bad side
effects is better to take because you've got
eczema or something like that. And so these
things are not normal. And I think it's time for
all of us as leaders to stand up and say,

(19:49):
bullshit, this is not normal. We do not need to
live this way as a collective. And we can come
together in alignment and support a movement, if
you will, for well being. And I feel just very
strongly about that as a leadership advisor,
because people with big visions cannot accomplish

(20:12):
those great visions without that discretionary
energy. It's just not going to happen. It's not
possible. They have all the best willpowers.
Overrated. Can you hear that when I say that? How
do you hear that, Meredith? Willpower's
overrated. The whole world's about willpower.
Force it, make it happen, go on YouTube. But that

(20:34):
kind of motivational stuff is just not right, at
least in my heart, because at some point I did
willpower before I ended up in intensive care.

That's where willpower, all willpower all the
time got you.

Eventually it will get most of us in a bad
situation.

Yeah.

Even if it's a bad relationship, right?

Yeah. No, I'm right there with you on the
willpower, because it's, it's finite. It's a
Finite resource, I found. So if it's the only
thing I have, it's. If it's the only tool I have
to do what I'm supposed to be doing or to do
what's good for me or best for me, sooner or
later it's going to fail. Like I need more tools

(21:26):
in the toolkit. And especially because we were
saying earlier about getting thrown down the
stairs, right. It's like sometimes I, you know,
I'm motivated by pain. The pain goes away, my
motivation goes away, you know, and that, that
willpower to get out of the pain is not enough to

(21:47):
create a sustainable life where I don't keep
ending up in that pain, whether it's emotional
pain through a relationship or physical pain,
because I, you know, I'm not doing the things
that I need to do to keep my body healthy. There
has to be some other. Yeah, some other blueprint,
some other driving force besides the willpower.

Yeah. So then, so then the effective question
becomes what is that driving force? Force.

What is it? What is it, Stephen?

Well, I think the most important attribute to
great leadership is different than what a lot of
people would say. I think the greatest attribute
to great leadership. And we'll talk in a moment
about what does leadership even mean? But it's
listening. And I don't just mean that I can have

(22:49):
an ability to listen to you, Meredith, and hear
what you say based on the content or the con, but
the context of what you share, like that's hugely
important. But the listening I'm talking about is
how good are you as a leader, Meredith, or any
practitioner listening? Or myself, Stephen McGee?

(23:11):
How good am I at listening to myself? How good am
I at listening to for those of us that are
spiritual, how good am I at listening to source?
How good am I at listening to spirit? How good am
I at listening to the wisdom of what I know is
true for me, even though people outside of me

(23:34):
think it should be different or I should be doing
it differently. And that's a self referential
skill that I've worked on my entire life because
I didn't grow up that way. I grew up trying to
please people and make other people happy to my
own demise. So I think that's one of the keys to

(23:58):
this great question that we're, that we're
pondering together.

Wow. Yes. So, yes, because if a person is able to
listen to their inner truth, let's say, and act
on that, it would feel to me like that makes them
a leader, irrespective of what their situation in

(24:28):
life is whether they have a job title that
implies that or not. But that ability to live
from that kind of truth, like just naturally puts
you in a leadership position. Would you say?

Well, I would say that that is really close to
aligned with what I would say. I would say that,
first of all, yeah, job title means nothing. Job
title, whether I'm a doctor or I'm not a doctor,
or I'm a CEO or I'm a mid level manager, or I'm
an administrator, administrative, or I'm a mom or

(25:06):
I'm a stay at home dad, leadership is not about a
tunnel in overarching simplicity. Leadership, by
definition is the positive influence of another.
So if I can positively influence another in my
way of being as a leader, it has nothing to do

(25:30):
with title. And so I have had in the past clients
and some now who I'm like, hey, dude, sis, lead
up. Like you think you're stuck and that you
can't positively influence upward in the
organization or sideways in the organization or
down in the organization. It's nothing to do with

(25:52):
title and everything to do with willingness to be
a leader. So for all of our listeners, it's like,
if you have technology skills, scientific
information, principles and protocols that can
serve this planet and you are not sharing them, I
would challenge you today to say it doesn't
matter your title, and I would say go for it,

(26:15):
because you will find, I will find. We will all
find discretionary energy when we share. Sharing
is a key to leadership. So how do you hear all
that, Meredith? How does that line up?

I love that. I love that. Because as I was saying
to you before we came on, what I really hope,
what I really wanted for people to hear was that,
yeah, you're, if you're like, involved in health
and wellness, if you're listening to this
podcast, if you know what quantum biology is, you

(26:48):
have really important information. And I feel
like sometimes people get caught like, oh, well,
I'm not as smart as that, that guest, or I don't
know as much as that person or I don't know. And
I wanted, you know, I really wanted you to come
on because I want people to hear from a, in the

(27:10):
strongest possible terms that, that what you have
to offer matters.

Absolutely. And you are a piece of the puzzle.
You matter. I love what you just said, Meredith,
because I think sometimes people can take
themselves out of the game and it's like, get off
the sidelines and get in the game. You might not
be the quarterback of the. Sorry for the sports

(27:39):
metaphor, but you might not Be the team captain.
But what you offer is unique, and it's not
complete until you offer it. Even if you're. I
mean, this is the funniest thing. Like, I've seen
this in organizations for years. Like, the quiet
ones, when I go in, they're the first ones I'm

(28:00):
asking questions to. You want to know why?
Because they're great observers, and they see all
kinds of shit other people don't see. And they
can speak it so clearly, but they don't get
asked. So you may never get asked, as you might
be going, yeah, I'm that person. I'm the one
observing. I'm the one that can see things. But

(28:21):
then I say, okay, it's incumbent upon you to
build that muscle of sharing, to build that
muscle of speaking your truth clearly and
succinctly and powerfully. You will be heard.
Because a lot of people just run around the
flower pot speaking. They don't often say
anything. So we all have. We all have a gift to

(28:46):
share. And. And one of the things I would hope
would come from our being together today,
Meredith, or the magic of you and me doing this
together, would be that someone out there would
get sparked into the trueness of who they are and
start leading. But leading doesn't mean telling.
See, people think it means telling. Another great

(29:09):
skill in leadership isn't telling. It's asking. I
spend most of my day asking questions. This is
more talking than I normally do in any given hour
because you having me as a guest and you're
asking me questions, but normally I'm asking
questions. And questions can also be a great form

(29:29):
of leadership.

And then what do you do? What's next? What else?

Listen. So again, most people are listening for
what I call agreement. So there might even be
guests out there right now listening for
agreement. It's fine. It's not a judgment. Like,
what do I think about Steven saying, is he true?
Is it accurate? Is it 100% my experience? Well,
no, it's never going to be. But I say, why would

(30:00):
you listen for agreement when you could listen
for alignment? Like, what do we really have in
common as a collective? Speaking of quantum
biology, what a beautiful name, the Quantum
Biology Collective. Because we're going to have
different opinions on different things,
especially in this field of quantum biology,

(30:21):
because it's emerging. But there's also a lot of
things we can all agree on that we can align on.
And that's where we're powerful. We're powerful
when we're aligned. And one of the. I'm not going
political here. But I'm just gonna say that one
of the biggest problems we see in corporations,
one of the biggest problems we see in our
country, one of the biggest problems we see in

(30:43):
the world is people are listening for agreement.
And when they listen for agreement, they hear
something they don't believe in, and now they're
ready to fight. And when they're ready to fight,
we've created resistance. And when we've created
resistance, there's no coming together. Mother
Teresa said it best. She said, I am not against

(31:06):
war. I am for peace. That's nuanced leadership.
So people out there, like, against things, like
being against Western medicine is one example.
I'm not against Western medicine. I'm for
functional medicine based in quantum biology. And

(31:30):
that's what I would speak to if I ever had enough
knowledge to do it. I know enough to be dangerous
on that topic. But because of your guests that
I've learned it, I want them to hear that I've
applied stuff from what Peter shared with me, who
I adore as a leader. Peter's a great leader

(31:51):
because he's a great listener. Would you agree?

I would agree. Yeah.

But he's also, when you ask him, hey, what are
the 10 things you do to build your energy system?
Well, he can go there. He can go there. And he's
helped me apply it. So those are all examples of
what our topic is today. Leadership.

Yeah. And I'm really interested in this idea of
listening for agreement because it's something. I
wasn't thinking of it in those terms, but I think
it's kind of similar that I was thinking about
recently. It's sort of like the operating system
under whatever it is, whatever else is going on.

(32:39):
So I can have. You gave a great example of not
being against Western medicine, being for
something else. And so would. Wouldn't an example
of, like, listening for agreement be. I'm
listening to, say, a podcast or an interview or
some, you know, person in the media talk about

(32:59):
something to do with health and wellness. And I'm
like. And I'm like, yep, they're correct. Yep,
that's correct. Oh, they don't know about this.
I'm not listening to them anymore. Or, oh, they
said that. But I don't think that that's right.
So I'm not right. And we kind of. I was thinking
of it as, like, almost like a purity test. Right.
They're like, oh. And so we sort of push that
person aside or push everything that they said to

(33:21):
one side and put them in a bucket. Of, like, I
don't. I don't need to pay attention to that
person because they didn't tick all my boxes. Is
that, like, the kind of thing you're talking
about? And, like, when we come in through that
lane, that we're. We're missing out. We're not.
There are things. There is a different way we
could be listening to get value from that person,

(33:43):
even if we disagree on a few things.

For sure. Meredith, I mean, you've summarized it
beautifully. It's like you're. You're shooting
yourself in the head. So why not have an attitude
where I'm going to listen for what I'm aligned
with, and I'm just going to leave the rest
behind? Now, I don't know about you, but my
favorite three words these days are I don't know.

(34:06):
But those were not words I used 20 years ago.
Very often. Like, I just. 30 years ago, I knew
everything. 20 years ago, I started to realize I
didn't know that much, but I thought I knew
certain things were irrefutable. Now I don't know
anything. And you know why? Because now I'm open
to the possibility that I could be wrong. And

(34:28):
when I'm open to that possibility that I could be
wrong, I can hear things and I learn more and I
can apply more. So I think it's a very
interesting time to be having this conversation
because there's just so much divisiveness in all
kinds of areas. You know, it's not just

(34:50):
politically, it's the world at large is kind of
in an argument.

Yes. Yeah. No. And what made me think of that,
and this is, like, a really nice framework for
approaching it differently, is that there was. I
was on Twitter, and there was this. Some
activists who are doing work around getting

(35:16):
toxins out of food, and they were. And very much
focused on processed food and improving the food
supply. And then there were some other people on
Twitter who are like, it's all about light.
You're so stupid that you're not even covering

(35:36):
the light story. You don't even know what you're
talking about. I just thought, oh, gosh, right.
I'm not sure that's really helping where we want
to go. I mean, there was someone doing great work
in an area that needs. That needs it. And that

(35:57):
lens, like, that was just, like, listening for
hard agreement. And I just feel like there's so
much change that's about to happen that could be
happening. Like, and you're giving me a really
nice framework for thinking about that. So it's
like listening for the alignment. Where are we
aligned?

Yeah, exactly. It's beautiful. I think we're in a
very interesting time on the planet where we're
going to start to see a more positive shift
through leadership in that direction. And that's
why I'm banging my sharing drum today about

(36:37):
leadership. Thirty years of being in the field,
the leadership space, and it's increasing.
There's oftentimes a breakdown before a
breakthrough. So let's hope that we're starting
to move for the breakthrough, you know, for the
positive solutions for a greater good for the
entire planet.

And I want to get into the shifts that are
happening. I want to get into that a little bit
more, actually. So I'm glad you raised it. But
before we do that, I just. What are some other
misconceptions or myths that you feel that people
have about the idea of leadership?

Oh, my God. We need four or five more hours. But
I think the biggest. I'm going to simplify
something complicated. So I know this, that I. I
want you all to know I'm oversimplifying
something complicated, but I think there's still
value in what I. What I would share here, which
is the first law of leadership is take care of

(37:40):
yourself. Breathe that in, like, let that camp in
your heart and your body. Let it fill your cells.
Take care of yourself. The biggest misnomer of
leadership is that you give yourself away all day
long, and eventually there's nothing left to

(38:01):
give. And then we have a leader that's not living
through discretionary energy. We have a leader
that's sick, and we have a leader that has a
great vision and maybe great wisdom and skills,
but they're not able to offer it. So take care of
yourself so that you can serve others. And so I

(38:24):
work with a lot of people in that way. They can't
see it. You know, I have blind spots in my life.
I don't know if you do, Meredith, but I have
blind spots, and I can't see them as their blind
spots. So the reflection of coaching. You're a
great coach. You coach people. By coaching
people, you can reflect back what they may not

(38:44):
see themselves. And so I believe in guiding and
advising and coaching for that reason, because
often nobody tells the leader what they can't see.

Right.

So I know that's over broad, but is that kind of
helpful?

Absolutely. And that could be. I mean, you were
almost like describing a lot of moms when. In
that. In the way that you explained it. You know,
it's like. Or even just Parents or caregivers in
general, you know, I gotta give and give and give
and give and give until I drop. Or, you know,

(39:23):
people in the helping professions prioritizing
clients over self care over and over and over.
Because that feels like that, that what we think
it means to serve. But you're saying something
really different.

Yeah, I think what you're bringing up with
practitioners and moms, I've never been a mom,
but I, but I watched and I know my own mom was
that way, you know, so I think that's a really
good example. And I also think it's another great
example of doctors who care so much about their
patients, they forget about the themselves. But

(40:01):
we all know it's just, it's, it's just like
anything. I don't want to walk into a doctor's
office and look at somebody that's ill, that's
giving me advice about my own wellness. I, I,
that's not believable to me. That's not authentic
to me. So I think if, if you're one of those
people, it's like, what would I need to do to

(40:21):
come into balance? How could I shift my practice
in such a way that I can take care of myself and
serve people more fully? And I've heard some of
your guests talk about new business models that
can support that and it's brilliant. That's what
is changing in that area. But through leadership,
anything is possible in those ways. Like, we're

(40:44):
just all going to have to get out of our comfort
zone and start looking at solutions that we
didn't think of last year.

Right. Okay. So listening, listening for
alignment over listening for agreement, taking
care of ourselves as a form of leadership, that
is really powerful. Right. Because I think so
many of us struggle with that idea. It's like,

(41:13):
well, if I'm going to take care of myself, that's
not selfish. Exactly. Or, but certainly to the
side of my leadership responsibilities. And yeah,
it's really powerful for you to say no. That's
not, that's not the right way around.

Well, you just said the most important, you said
the most important word in the, in our language
for leadership. And that is the word no. And I
say to my clients, clear boundaries are not
barriers to the heart. So people think that

(41:54):
saying no is a bad thing in some way. But again,
I said earlier, obligations are overrated. You
know, we're seeing this online now. Overrated,
underrated. Have you seen some of these old
thermodynamics Is underrated. Overrated. And then
the specialist goes on and Says about why, like,
it's fun. I love it. But saying no is underrated.

(42:17):
Taking care of self is underrated.

Right. Okay. What are some other ways for us to
think about leadership that we're probably not
doing?

The power of leadership is far reaching. So
you're leading us in the, in this podcast. Thank
you for doing the podcast because you have guests
that come on. It takes energy, time. Yeah. You
know, yada, yada, yada, to prepare, to get there

(42:54):
and to put it out. Here's the thing about
leadership. When it's coming from a clear
intention of service, leadership is far reaching.
You will have no idea, Meredith, who will listen
to this, who will then take something from it and
go share it with their family or go share it with

(43:16):
their patient, or go share it with a stranger on
the street, or share it at Thanksgiving dinner or
a holiday dinner. It's far reaching. Who's going
to share this podcast with five of their friends?
Because there's two or three things in it that
are valuable. So do not underestimate your power

(43:37):
as a leader as you share as you come into the
alignment of what we're talking about here today.
You know, it's just, it's evolution. Leadership
is an evolution that we have, that we have a
shared opportunity in together. There's. There's

(43:57):
an opportunity for us to share, and that's more
powerful than we think.

Right, right. And you were, you were saying
earlier about cultivating the ability to trust
yourself and trust your inner knowing and trust
guidance from source. And I saw in some of your
writing you talked about personal sovereignty and

(44:26):
its relationship to leadership. How do you
support people to cultivate that, especially, you
know, in this world? Like, we think a lot of
things are true that most people don't think are
true, you know, and it's based on research and
understanding. And so we've come to it like, in

(44:48):
a. In a real organic way. And it's real and true
for us, but it does take a certain degree of, you
know, that ability to cultivate that personal
sovereignty. And it can be, I don't know, tricky,
lonely. How do you support people to get okay

(45:10):
living their lives that way when a lot of the
time we're expected to capitulate to the more
dominant voices or what everyone else thinks,
what everyone.

Else says, yeah, boy, this is one that comes out
of the memory bank. But I think it's it. It will
be the most efficient answer to your great
question. Let's see what you think. But many of
your listeners have listened to, I recommend if
they haven't read the book A Man's Search for
Meaning by Viktor Frankl. Brilliant, brilliant
book and well known mainstream book that has a

(45:43):
lot of wisdom in it. The piece of wisdom in it
that I would speak to today is the distance from
stimulus to response. So why would I mention that
today? Because most people don't have any
distance from a trigger, an activation. They get
blamed for something. There's stimulus, and then

(46:04):
we immediately respond based on familiar
patterns. Can you hear that? Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Okay. So the practice of illumination, of great
leadership, of better listening, of all the
things we've talked about today, is to put a gap
and a distance between stimulus and response. So
I'm going to ask you a personal question. When
you feel activated, like you're, you're, you're.

(46:32):
You might be, someone says something to you,
like, Meredith, you're just dumb. And, and. Or
whatever the situation is, where do you feel it
in your body when you're activated or when you
react?

Probably most often in my, in my gut. Like, like,
like seizes up. Like your. Your stomach drops.
Like that feeling.

Yeah. Okay, good. Mine starts in the gut, moves
up to the solar plexus, and eventually I still, I
can feel my head starting to get heated. Like,
I'm moving to that.

Yeah.

So that is a beautiful thing. If you can be. If
you as a listener today to the podcast, you can
get familiar with where you're activated. It's a
sign. To do what? Slow down. Create a distance
between stimulus and response. You don't have to

(47:29):
send the email or the text right now. You don't
have to even reply. You could even say, listen,
I'm a little. That pissed me off. I need a few
minutes. So we'll start to retrain the brain.
Truly, we have the science. I haven't heard as
much from your podcast. Maybe it's somewhere in

(47:51):
the archives. But neuroplasticity is a real
thing. We can retrain it, but we have to give it
room to rewire. We have to move in the direction
of what we prefer. Earlier, I said familiar
patterning. So I don't want my familiar patterns
running my life, subconsciously or otherwise. So

(48:14):
somewhere in there, I got to get the gap. And in
the gap, I take a breath. And in that breath, I
make a new choice and I stay sovereign. And if I
can stay sovereign, then I can be whole. And if I
can be whole, I can respond more fully from a
place of alignment instead of reaction and start

(48:34):
a fight that now explodes and goes down the
rabbit hole. Into a whole host of cascading
problems. So oftentimes, pausing is good. And
that's what Viktor Frankl brought to us in that
book, A Man's Search for Meaning. I mean, he did
it for. He did it more than a moment. He did it

(48:57):
for days and weeks and months and I think years
on end. But he turned to the most horrific
extrinsic situation in Auschwitz in a
concentration camp, being vilified and attacked
and treated horribly with very little food and
sickness all around him, watching his friends

(49:19):
perish. He turned even that into a sovereign
situation. So that's an extreme example, I hope,
for most people listening. I mean, it's extreme,
but. So that's the practice, though, and your
willingness to practice is the key, starting

(49:41):
today. It's a simple thing. Small things done
consistently make major impact. There's a quote.
It's not mine. I don't know who said it, but I
use it all day, every day. Little things make
major changes. So those are kind of my thoughts
on personal sovereignty.

Yeah, that's really deep that I hadn't ever
thought of it that way. The ability to create the
space that you need to stay in your own
experience without causing a reaction, a chain

(50:23):
reaction, but also without denying your own
experience.

Yeah, you're not, you're not shoving your
feelings.

Yeah.

You're not stuffing it. You're pausing. And in
that pause, you might even ask the question,
what's the best solution here? So again, that,
that, that kind of brings in the thing I was
talking earlier about asking, like you can ask
yourself generative questions. Albert Einstein

(50:52):
was famous for that. He didn't ask a lot of
people because he was too smart for most people.
He asked himself, how can I find a solution to
this? What's the way forward with this? And then
give those things room to incubate. Give those

(51:12):
questions that pause, that space between stimulus
and response time for a new solution rather than
an old familiar one that has an automatic
reoccurring dialogue to it. I know I'm throwing
out some leadership language today, but automatic
reoccurring dialogue is something everyone can

(51:32):
relate to. It's because we've said the same thing
so many times. It's a pattern. Doesn't mean it's
the right thing to say again. So it gives us room
for that source for the spirit to come in as
well. Like if it. For those of us listening to
believe in something like that. Like, all day
long when I'm working with people, I will pause

(51:54):
and say, give me a minute. And then I Listen, and
then I respond. And sometimes my response is, I
don't know.

Right. But I would. I would imagine that
generates trust. Right. Like, if you are willing
to tell me when you don't know, then when you
tell me what you think to be true, I'm more
likely to believe you.

It would for me. It would for me if someone just
said, I'll get back to you, or I don't know. It
would for me.

Yeah, right. These are just. Yeah. I keep using
the word powerful, but it really is, I think, to
integrate these approaches into our lives.
Because as I was saying before, like, there are

(52:49):
so many layers and levels, and there's, you know,
healing our physical selves and healing our
trauma. But then there's like, okay, now we're.
Now we're ready to live life. Now we're ready to,
as you say, get in the game. So now, what are
the. Now what are the tools and strategies I need
to cultivate an identity as a leader in the game

(53:13):
and not as a sick person or not as a struggling
person or a traumatized person or. Or this or
that. It's like I'm a sovereign person now.
Ready. Ready to engage with the world.

Yeah. Yeah. And Meredith, I would say, again,
I'll simplify a more complicated topic, but I
think your listeners can walk away with the idea
that in leadership, maybe identity is less
important. What my identity is, is less important

(53:51):
than who am I being in this moment. Like, we're
so caught up in doing. And believe me, actions
are important. We all. We all know that. But
that. That gets back to will, that gets back to
force. That gets back to. I know, I know I need
to take action on the physical level to make good
things happen. But what most people don't take

(54:14):
into account is who would you need to be to make
that happen? Who would you need to be in your
next patient, in your next meeting with a
patient, when a patient walks in? Who would you
need to be to heal that person? Who would you
need to be? Who would I need to be to get an idea

(54:36):
or a vision across to a chairman who can't
currently see that the current vision is causing
problems and cascading problems? Who would I need
to be? And I would say that a thousand times,
because who you would need to be is known through
this space of listening. It's known in the

(54:57):
sovereignty of your soul. Who you need to be can
happen in a holy instant. It can happen right
now. So it's not a lot of work. So people go,
well, I need to work on being a leader, I go, no,
you don't. You need to be a leader right now, be
a better listener. Starting today at home with
your child. What would that do in your life? It

(55:18):
would give you. It would give momentum and
velocity to the trajectory of your leadership.
Can you hear that?

Yes.

It's simple, but it's so powerful. I'll be doing
a keynote in January on the power of deep
listening at a conference in Arizona, and I can't
wait to do it, because so much of what I'm going
to talk about is presence pays. You know, we live
in a world where. And I'm not knocking
professional sports. I love sports. You know,

(55:50):
people getting paid millions of dollars a game to
throw a ball. Great. Love that. But what if one
day we get paid through who we're being as a
doctor, as a practitioner, as a leader? Presence
pays. I think we're going to see that one day.
And that's a hope and a dream on my part. Like,

(56:13):
but I feel it in my bones because I'm surrounding
myself with more and more people that get what
you get that. Get that this is a. This is that
what seems so intangible is actually real, that
it actually matters who we're being.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that is. There's the
question, who do I need to be in order to, you
know, fill in the blank? I love it. I love it.
Okay. So you mentioned a little earlier, and I.
This is where I kind of wanted to end about, sort

(56:53):
of. We've been talking a lot about personal going
deep inside and how to move forward in an
effective way in the world. What do you see
happening on a wider level in terms of. And even
just, I don't know what words you use to

(57:13):
articulate it. Shifts in consciousness, planetary
changes. I leave it open to you, but I would
love. I know that you pay attention, and I would
love to know what you see, what you're seeing,
and where. Where you feel that we are.

I'm going to share a quick contextual story. I'll
make it very brief. And when we were in 2020 and
I knew that Covid was coming, I did what's called
Gestalt therapy, and I did it with COVID And for

(57:51):
those of us that don't know what gestalt is, it's
simply. You find an aspect inside of yourself. It
could be sadness. It could even be a pain you
have. It could be thoughts you have. And you take
that aspect outside of you and you have a
conversation with it. So Covid wasn't Something I

(58:14):
had at the time, but it was something I wanted to
talk to. I wanted to find out, why is Covid here?
So I had a conversation as if Covid could talk.
And I literally went from my chair to Covid's
chair. And I learned a lot from COVID Like, what
could I learn from COVID being here on the
planet? And so that's an example of where I think

(58:39):
we're heading. Where we're heading is there will
be continued challenges. But these challenges
that we are facing as a humanity are not
challenges that we cannot overcome. Does that
mean it'll be easy? No. Does it mean that we'll
be able to do things the way we always have?
Here's the answer. No, it won't. It will mean we

(59:01):
need to think at a higher level of consciousness,
a more service oriented level of consciousness to
find the solution. So the answer in leadership is
use everything that occurs in your day, in your
life, in your business, in your relationships,

(59:21):
for your advancement. Use everything that occurs
for your advancement. It's like, why is this in
our world? So that we can adjust, so that we can
evolve, so that we can come together in alignment
and find solutions we can't currently see. To do
that, we have to be in relationship with the

(59:43):
planet. We have to be in relationship with the,
with nature. We have to be in relationship with
ourselves before we can be in relationship with
other people. So some people are moving in a
different direction. They're moving into fear,
they're moving into againstness, they're moving
into separation from nature, from other people

(01:00:06):
that don't agree with them. This is not the
direction for the solution. That's the direction
to the past. We've already had the past for the
future. I think that's your question. What can we
expect? We can expect more challenges, but we can
expect that with the other things that are
happening on the planet, including AI, it's a

(01:00:30):
great example of what could be used against us or
it could be used for us. So in leadership, I'd
say get your intentions clear, find your
sovereignty and use it to lead and share. Use it
to lead and share. Because there will be lots of
opportunities for all of us to lead. It's

(01:00:52):
everywhere, the possibilities of leadership.
Everywhere we go. There's. We could. You could be
at a coffee shop and be doing something being
some way that could shift the direction of
somebody's day. So how do you hear all that,
Meredith? I said, I said a lot to your question,

(01:01:14):
but did. Was there something in there that landed
in terms of.

Meredith Oke (01:01:20):
Yeah, I mean, I think what a. What I'm really
experiencing is just what you're saying. There is
a lot of change, and what we know, what we're
familiar with might not necessarily work going
forward. So we cannot afford to not step into our

(01:01:45):
leadership. It's time. It's needed. All of. All
of you are needed. All of us are needed. And
that's, I think, probably always been true, but I
feel like it's extra true right now.

Stephen McGhee (01:02:01):
I think it's extra true, too. And I want to coin
a phrase, you just said it's worth repeating. All
of us are needed. Like, some of us are sitting on
the sideline. It's like, it's more fun to be in
the game anyway. I know what it's like to sit on
the sideline. I've done some isolation time in my

(01:02:21):
life, existential crises, that kind of thing,
where I'm like, I'm just out. Yeah, fuck it.
Like, I'm done.

Forget this anymore.

I just got hit too hard. I'm out. But I've
learned from those times, and inner strength
comes from those times. So if you're someone
sitting there going, yeah, I've been
contemplating how I can re. Engage. It's time you
said it. You said it so beautifully. It's time.
If not now, then when is the thing.

Yeah. And it's, you know, I don't. I just have
this sense. I was doing some research for a
presentation, going through looking at different
theories of cyclical nature of history and the
economy, and then looking at cosmology and
different philosophies and that it just seemed

(01:03:15):
that every single one of them was pointing to
this moment as a moment of the words that came
up, the most were upheaval and innovation and
change.

Yeah. It's beautiful.

And so. Yeah, that can feel scary. So the, the
tools and the wisdom that you have shared today,
I think are just so important, so, so important
because we can. We can know all a whole bunch of
stuff, and we could. But if we're not, as you

(01:03:54):
said, if we're not sharing it, if we're holding
ourselves back, then it's, you know, it's like,
Like, I don't know, almost like it might get
stuck. Like it wants to. The wisdom wants to go
out and reach other people.

Yeah. And there's a. There's. There's another
side to this coin I want to mention, because I
know a number of people. I'm thinking of one
person in particular who is so freaking smart and
is so right about so many things that he shares
on the planet. But this particular person has an

(01:04:36):
arrogance that causes resistance. So there's
someone doing the sharing, but from who are they
being? They're being arrogant. And if I'm being
arrogant about what I'm sharing, then there might
be some that get past that because they're just
skilled at getting past that. Like I said

(01:04:58):
earlier, you can take the message and leave the
rest behind. Like, it's. What is the old saying?
It's the message, not the messenger. Like, I'm
pretty good at that, but some people aren't. So
this person I'm thinking of are these people that
are so highly arrogant would be heard by so many
more people if they would consider refining their

(01:05:21):
way of being and becoming an even greater. An
even greater leader to communicate what they
know. So, you know, I don't know if there's
anyone listening here that falls into that
category, but I know at times in my life I really
had to refine my message through who I was being.
So that's.

That's true. And that is, I think, a bit of a
trap. When you, when you do have information and
knowledge and understanding that is ahead of the
curve, it can be tempting to feel that arrogance,
right? Like, oh, those, all those plebes, they
haven't figured this out yet.

They're wrong about this.

It's true. I think I tend to attract the people
who go the other way and get imposter syndrome.
But, yeah, that is definitely a booby trap to
look out for on this journey. I'm glad you
brought it up. At the end of the day, we're all
just. We're all just here together, figuring it
out as we go.

I think that's beautifully said. I know it's true
for me.

Steven, are there any last words that are on your
heart or mind that you'd like to share?

I'm just grateful to have met you through Peter.
I'm grateful for the work that you're doing.
You're sharing such meaningful, progressive work.
So my words, my final words aren't about
leadership or anything other than the fact that
you're doing it, you know, and that you're being

(01:07:04):
it and that I appreciate that about you. It is an
easy leading, right, isn't it? I don't know how
you feel, but some days you might wake up and
feel alone. You might wake up and feel isolated.
I know there's days I have that, and those are
the days that are most important for us as
leaders to get together and, and, and support

(01:07:27):
each other in staying in the game, so that isn't
so isolating and so lonely to lead. And, you
know, the biggest reason is really because we
can. But I appreciate you and what you're doing.

(01:07:47):
Those are my final words.

Oh, thank you, Stephen. Well, same here. You
know, this. This work is really needed, and I'm
glad we're all. We're all here together figuring
it out. Thank you for your time today and for
sharing everything. Oh, and how can people find

(01:08:10):
you.

McGee, McGH leadership dot com. I'll provide you
links to put in the show notes for anybody that's
interested in what I'm up to. There are a few
things coming around the first of the year, so
looking forward to those things.

Wonderful. Okay, so. So when this publishes,
those will all be in there and we can come and
find you. And I will. I'll mention them in the
intro as well, which I'll record.

Yeah. If anybody's interested, too, go to my
website, put in your email, and I send out some
written pieces. One of them's on discretionary
energy. I'm happy to forward those to anybody
interested.

Oh, perfect. Yes. All right, so sign up for
Steven's emails and get the wisdom in the printed
word. All right. Thank you, Stephen. We'll have
to do this again and continue to dive deep.

Thank you.

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111: Stephen McGhee - The Power of Pause: Redefining Leadership in a Fast-Paced World

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On Purpose with Jay Shetty

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}111: Stephen McGhee - The Power of Pause: Redefining Leadership in a Fast-Paced World