126: Dr. Michelle Jeffries - Eczema "Leaky Skin"? A Dermatologist’s Quantum Approach to Healing - The Quantum Biology Collective Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Meredith Oke (04:59):
Doctor Michelle Jeffries, welcome to the QVC
podcast.

Dr. Michelle Jeffries (05:04):
Thank you so much. I've been so excited about
this conversation.

So have I. Because we have never had a
dermatologist on the podcast because you, you
dermatologists are the toughest people to find.
Who are, who are willing to acknowledge that
maybe it's okay to go outside without SPF 9000

(05:29):
covering all of your skin. So I appreciate your
open mindedness.

Yes, yes, there's definitely some open
mindedness. We're not all close minded, but yes.

So let's start how you got into the, your journey
and how you came to, to focus on skin because you
started out studying something else, is that
right? And then you.

Oh, yeah.

Tell us, tell us the story.

Yeah, so I, I always tell my patients that I
wasn't born a dermatologist because I feel like
sometimes when they're there they're intimidated
and they're like, oh, like she's always been sun
protected and she's, you know, always done these
things a certain way. And you know, I wasn't
like, I, I tanned, I used to lay out in the sun.

(06:23):
My dad and I used to compete for tans when I was
younger. I did the tanning beds, I did the whole
bit. And so just to kind of ease the comfort of,
you know, patients and things, like, I'm a real
person, I've been through those things. And I
mean, my journey into medicine was kind of
interesting to start with. I had this like, kind

(06:45):
of odd fascination when I was younger with the
encyclopedia and that human body section where it
had those clear pages. And I would sit watching
cartoons thinking, like, I'm going to understand
how all this works. Like, this is what I want to
know. And I was like 7, 8 years old, so it was
kind of weird. And then, you know, I went on with
my life and I had some skin issues. Like I had

(07:05):
acne and I would get hives and things like that.
And I thought if I was, you know, going to be a
dermatologist, it was like adults only. And I
was, I was kind of interested in kids. And as I
was journeying to go to medical school when I was
in college, I had my grandma pass that was very,
very close to me. And then like my first love of

(07:26):
my life passed suddenly to the one I thought I
was going to mar. I was like, okay, I am not
ready for life, death, things. I don't think I
can be a doctor. Like, I gotta regroup here
completely. And so I went into psychology. And
then as I was going through psychology, I was
like, okay, like I like all of this, but I still
want to know about the human body. So I was

(07:47):
taking all these classes and, you know, doing
anatomy classes in my spare time when I was in
grad school in psychology. And I was like, you
know, there's something here. And I was trying to
figure out, like, what kind of doctor do I want
to be. I always had this perspective of the
person as a whole person. Like you can't separate
out the different parts. And so I really

(08:09):
resonated with osteopathic medicine. So I applied
to osteopathic medical school and I was like,
okay, if I get in, I'll go, and if I don't, I'll
just continue my career in psychology. And I got
in, I was like, great, okay, I'm going to go and
I'm going to, you know, be.

Could you just explain osteopathy a little bit?
Because I've learned from moving around the world
depending where you live. It's like in some
places everyone's like, oh yeah, go to an
osteopath. And other places are like, what is
that?

So, right, yeah. So it's all of the same medical
training as a, as an MD and then we have a
different perspective on the body. So kind of
like the come from of where all of the training
and the teaching that you learn about the human
body, it comes from this place that the body does
have ability to heal itself and that if we can
tap into that and support the body, it can heal

(09:00):
itself. And then the other principle that just
really resonated with me was that everything's
connected. It's not like your muscle skeletal
system is attached to the muscles and attached to
the fascia and attached to the organs and
attached to the skin. And you know, everything
kind of use, you know, moves as a unit. So if
they're say, just like from orthopedic

(09:20):
standpoint, if there's a problem with the
shoulder, well, maybe there might be something in
the neck or something in the back or something in
the knee or something in the ankle or something
else going on with that area. Maybe it's related
to the organ systems that are going there. So
it's just that perspective really, really
resonated with me. So we get training on hands on

(09:42):
techniques of where we move.

Osteopathy is, is hands on, but there's a medical
degree underneath.

Absolutely.

Actually know that. I thought it was like
chiropractic where it's its own separate thing
without attaching things.

Fascinating. And that's why it Just really
resonated. I could do all of the. Whatever
subspecialty I wanted to go in in medicine, if I
wanted to be a surgeon, if I wanted to be, you
know, a cardiologist, if I wanted to be a
pediatrician, whatever I wanted to do, I would
have that perspective and that hands on of

(10:17):
touching the body and knowing how it works, and
then just that perspective of it being holistic.
So it was like, sign me up. I'm ready. That's.
That's what I want to do.

And where did you. Was this in the United States
that you studied this?

Yes. So I live in Arizona. And so my training,
all of my training has been in Arizona in the US
So there is an osteopathic medical school here.
The first graduating class was the year before I
started, so it was a long time ago, but yes.
Yeah. So all in the U.S. i just.

I only asked because I. I lived overseas and I
lived in Hong Kong and a lot of the. There are a
lot of practitioners there who came from
Australia. And they were all. They were all like
osteopathoste pasta. And I had never heard of it.
And I was like, I've never. How have I never
heard of this? It's amazing. And they said it

(11:15):
really depends where the schools are. So I guess
in Canada there we don't have. We have
naturopathic, but not osteopathic. And I didn't
realize the Southwest had an osteopathic college.
So that's amazing because I've googled around.
I'm now in the northeast of the US And I've
googled around for osteopaths. And like, that's
like, no, there. That's not a thing up here. I

(11:35):
can't find any, so.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, maybe I should look harder. But I'm super
intrigued that that exists. And that's so. That's
amazing. Okay, so you did your full medical
training with the osteopathic layer. Okay, let's
keep going.

Yeah. And then I was going to go into pediatrics.
I kind of had a curiosity about dermatology, but
kind of, like I said, I didn't think I could also
work with kids. And I wanted to subspecialize,
but I didn't really know much about it. I was
like, I'll just go into pediatrics and see how
that works. And then my last year of medical
school, after I had kind of committed to doing

(12:13):
pediatrics, I found Dr. Ron Hanson, who is the
author of the textbook of Pediatric dermatology.
And he was at Phoenix Children's Hospital. And I
did a rotation with him, and it was like our
first patient. We went in and we saw this little
boy, and he had a rash. And. And the way that Dr.
Hansen analyzed the rash and went through the

(12:36):
possibilities of what it could be and what might
be going on with it and how it could be linked to
other things, and, you know, all of that, it
just, like, it was how I thought it was.
Literally, like everything inside my body
resonated. My intuition was like, oh, my gosh,
this is your thing. You gotta go into
dermatology. And then it was like, okay, how am I
going to do that? I mean, to go into dermatology,

(12:59):
it's like, you have to be top of your class. It's
very, very competitive. People plan for this
their whole medical school career. Like, how the
heck am I gonna.

Do that about dermatology?

It's.

It's very super competitive.

Super competitive.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you're like, last minute. I. I want to do
this, but it's the one. Because, like, going into
investment banking or something. I did that. And
they started planning, like, 10th grade.

Totally. How am I going to make this happen? And
then it's kind of like, you know, the universe
always, like, has your back. I guess it just like
it. If it's meant to be, it kind of opens the
pathways. So I shadowed Dr. Hansen as much as I
could in medical school, and I got into
pediatrics, I got into Phoenix Children's, and I

(13:45):
was like, okay, I'll do pediatrics first, and
then I'll just figure it out. And in my first
year of pediatric residency, I got a phone call
from the osteopathic derm residency in Phoenix,
and they're like, hey, we have a spot. You have
to give up your pediatric residency, but we'll
give you a spot in our derm residency. You have

(14:06):
to apply. We have to go through all the things,
but we want to see you apply and see what you can
do. And then Dr. Hansen was starting a pediatric
dermatology fellowship, and he was like, okay, we
can actually do your fellowship, and we can merge
it, and we'll work together. We'll do it
together. And I was like, oh, my God. I mean,
just like, the energy is right. And, like, how

(14:31):
does that happen? And it was like, okay, I
committed to this pediatric residency. Like,
that. That was hard to break that promise. But I
knew that this was the next step of what I had to
do. And so I went through the application
process, the interview process, the whole thing,
and it all Fell into place. I was simultaneous.

(14:53):
This hasn't been done before and it hasn't been
done again. It was a simultaneous pediatric
dermatology fellowship with a dermatology
residency. It was expanded to four years of
training instead of the typical three years of
derm residency after your intern year, and then a
one or two year fellowship in pediatric

(15:14):
dermatology. When I started this, pediatric
dermatology was a two year fellowship you had to
do after dermatology, and then they changed it to
one. It was this magical synergistic pathway
opened up. I was like, okay. Dr. Hanson worked
closely with Mayo Clinic. I was able to go to

(15:35):
Mayo Clinic and get some of the dermatology
curriculum and sit in on that education and that
training too. And then the osteopathic
dermatology program was fantastic. I got to learn
the osteopathic way of looking at skin and
treating it. And so it was a beautiful unfoldment
of something I would have never guessed would

(15:58):
have happened.

Could you explain the osteopathic approach to
dermatology versus the regular approach?

Yeah. So in our training, we did all of the
traditional things that you would do in
dermatology. So we would do skin surgeries, you
know, biopsies, prescribing medications and all
of that. But we would try to also put into
perspective what else could be going on from a
holistic standpoint. And were there other
modalities that we could bring in for this

(16:27):
patient to support? And then also recognizing
just the. The psychological impact of having a
skin issue where everybody can see your health
issue, and just really like understanding that
component, and I think that was what really
brought it. Brought it, you know, kind of to the
surface for people is like, okay, we understand
there's like this other part that maybe brings

(16:49):
shame or, you know, anger or frustration or
things like that. There are a little bit of some
osteopathic kind of manipulation techniques that
kind of move the fascia or move different things.
But we didn't get a lot of that in the training.
It was very much more focused on addressing
things because they were already so advanced. And
we had to, you know, kind of take it where. Where

(17:11):
people were at at that point where they had
already full blown psoriasis all over their body
and skin cancers, you know, here and there and
everywhere. So it was great. But it was just
that, that philosophy, that understanding, that
connection to the person in front of you.

Okay, so. So the osteopathic model is more
holistic, you're looking at, as opposed to just
like, let's Treat this. Let's treat this symptom.
What's going on with this condition? It's like
more of a systemic look at where it could have
come from.

Right. I think it, you know, most. Most skin
disease is like that, though. It's not. It's not
just always a skin issue. There's more to it. And
I think as time has evolved, I mean, this was,
what, 20 years ago? Most MDs are on board with
that understanding, like, they're starting to see

(18:07):
those things. So it's not. It's not so different
anymore. There's definitely a coming forth of an
awareness of. There's a lot going on. And what's
beautiful about dermatology is it is a bit of a
window into what's going on internally. And even
traditional dermatologists are trained that way.
We're trained, you know, in traditional

(18:28):
dermatology because I was exposed to that
training, too, of this is related. There could be
a systemic disease. It could be related to a
medication. There can be other things going on.
So that's the beauty of the skin, is you can see
things and you can treat them, and then you can
see them get better. It's all right there, you
know?

Yes. And I'm reminded, I know when I first
started, you know, like many, many years ago,
reading about mind, body, connection and, you
know, all of the things, there seemed to be an
accepted belief in that world that I think the
line was something like the skin is the first

(19:10):
layer of exteriorization of something happening,
like an emotional disturbance or something
happening internally. I love to hear your
thoughts on that.

Yes. So it's kind of like, you know, we have this
outside environment and we have this internal
environment, and the barrier between it is your
skin. And so. And there's connections to the
internal environment from the external
environment. And so this is where, you know,
about a decade ago, I was learning about leaky

(19:43):
skin, and I was in, you know, doing functional
medicine training, too, and. And leaky gut and
all of. All of that. And it was. It was a lecture
where I was sitting in. It was like my first
functional medicine lecture. And they were
talking about leaky gut and all of the pathways
and the immune system responses and everything

(20:03):
was just like eczema and leaky skin. And I had
the biggest aha moment. And I realized, like, our
external skin, where it kind of meets the inside,
is like when we go to our mouth and then the
inside of our mouth to our throat, and then we
have our inner skin, which is our gut. And so
there's this like, connection of everything. And,

(20:27):
you know, our eyes, I mean, there's just like.
And the skin's great at creating a barrier and
doing that, but sometimes we do things outside of
our skin and the barrier is disrupted and things
come inside. And so there was some data in the
past several years about peanut allergy. And
could it be related to what's on the skin? Not

(20:47):
necessarily eating peanuts, but could it be on
the skin? And could it be vice versa? And could
it be this whole thing together? And of course.
Of course it is. Right. And so there's just these
connections. And sometimes there's like a. I
don't know, like a seasonality to your skin
issue. And so sometimes there'll be something

(21:08):
where things only happen a certain time of year.
And the question to ask there is, well, when it
first happened, what was going on in your life at
that time? Was there something that could have
triggered an emotional or traumatic response? And
going back to that, and then there's like, a
memory. And then when that season comes up, like,
okay, are we having a seasonality to it? I mean,

(21:29):
certainly there can be issues with environmental
allergens and pollens at a certain time, and if
it's an allergy thing, but could there be a
deeper link there. Could there be something where
there's something that happened? Our body
anchored that memory, and we know a lot more now
about trauma response. And then it only comes out
when maybe those energies of whatever was going

(21:50):
at that moment kind of seem more aligned. And
then we realign to that and it comes out again
because we haven't quite addressed it fully. So
that's part of it.

Wow. So that's so interesting. So you would agree
that, you know, with. With that kind of thesis
that evolved. I don't know when that. That the
skin. Often if something shows up on the skin,
it's like. I think. Sorry, I'll finish my
sentence. Often, if it shows up on the skin, it's

(22:22):
like your body's first attempt to, like, show a
signal that something's going on. And if we use a
suppressive agent, I think it was a homeopath
that told me this, now that I'm thinking about
it, it was like, it shows up on the skin. And if
we use a suppressive agent, whatever was trying
to exteriorize that way gets pushed back into the

(22:44):
body and goes and does some other business
somewhere else or something along those lines. Is
that like, how would you. What's your. You know,
you have such a body of research in all of the
different areas. Like, I'M just curious how you
could break down even further for us to

(23:05):
understand, like, what the skin's role.

Absolutely. I think. I think there's truth on all
of it, on all the sides, and that, that's kind of
where, like, understanding the. Both and, and
being open and curious to all of the
possibilities instead of one way of doing it, and
that's the correct way, and that's the only way
to do it. And there's another way of looking at
things. It's. There's multiple different

(23:30):
experiences and, and realities of it all. So when
we have something showing up on the skin, it's a
signal that something's going on. Sometimes it
can be just an external thing, sometimes it can
just be in the skin, because the skin has its own
immune response, its own immune system, it has
its own hormonal system, it has its own HPA axis

(23:51):
in the skin. It can just be in the skin. However,
we also know that everything's connected
energetically and physiologically, so there can
be different signals coming up at that same time.
So if we treat the skin, does it push things back
in? I don't know. But what usually happens when

(24:12):
people come and see a dermatologist or someone to
help with their skin is this is disturbing them
in some way. It's either itchy or growing or
bleeding or destructive. So if we can at least
help them with that, and then if there is
something inside that they can work on and do
those inner links and do that inner work too,
it's synergistic. It's not just, okay, we're

(24:33):
going to dampen the skin and that'll cure it and
that'll be done. That's. That sometimes is the
case, but not always. And then sometimes there's
something inside that keeps coming up. And then
could we address that on a deeper level? Could we
do a deeper level of, you know, functional
medicine testing and, and see, like, what is it
underneath it? Is there, you know, an energetic

(24:55):
thing that can be treated energetically
underneath there? Absolutely. But when you're
coming to a dermatologist, it's like, how can we
fix this external thing and do that while you're
working on the internal thing? Are there internal
things we can do in dermatology? Absolutely.
There's so many things that we can do from the
inside out to kind of help those pathways calm
and help them not be so cumbersome and

(25:18):
symptomatic. So it's like, why wouldn't we want a
little relief from what's happening in our skin
as we're working on those other things. Why can't
we have it all? Why can't we do both? Why can't
we work on it all? I guess that's always, you
know, kind of been my come from is like, well,
why can't we do some medication and then do some
other things if. If that's the right thing? Why

(25:41):
does it have to be only medication and only this
or only energetics and no medication and let it
fester and you're miserable and you can't sleep
at night and you know that's messing with your
circadian rhythm and you know, your cortisol's a
mess and then your insulin level, you know, so
it's just. Can't we, can't we just come together
and do it all?

I love that. Because, yes, I mean, we do have
access to these, to some amazing medical
breakthroughs that can relieve our suffering.
But, yeah, I hear what you're saying. But if we
just focus on that, then we're not getting to the
root cause. But if we are a purist and reject
everything, like, we might not get the relief

(26:20):
that we need to do the work that we need to do to
heal, like, at all. Yeah.

It's asking what if. What. What if this could
help? What if this other thing that seems like so
extreme and weird, what if that thing could be
part of my healing journey? What if this, like,
thing that's been around for ages could be part
of it? What if this prescription actually could
help me too? Like, why. What if I did all. What

(26:47):
if I, like, you know, kind of followed my
intuition about what I need and how these all can
work together for me, like, that's. I don't know,
just asking the. What if?

I'm having this, this memory and it keeps coming
to my mind, so I'm just going to tell the story.
It's like super woo. But I, I was listening.
There's someone I listened to who. He's an
intuitive. Like, that's what he does for a
living. And he was telling a story that he was
getting like a recurring foot fungus. And he was

(27:17):
doing all of the, all of the natural things and
all of the things to clear it and heal it. And he
did like a guided, you know, intuitive session.
And he got the message, like, this is. I forget.
Exactly. But basically the message was like, you
got to put drugs on it. This is like the
energetic imprint of this requires modern

(27:40):
medicine. So go do it.

Right, right.

And I just love that story because he's like, as
woo as you could possibly get right.

And that's. And that's the beauty of being in the
both hand and being open. So he was woo, and I
think we're all woo in some way, especially the
audience listening to this too. But. But yeah,
it's like, why? Why can't we do it all? Like,
what. What's the hold up here? Why are we
struggling so much? Why are we putting ourselves

(28:09):
through so much? And I think there is a lot of
misunderstandings and misinformation about
things. And I mean, gosh, coming through the past
couple of years, it's like there's a distrust of
things and, you know, trying to trust your. Your
own intuition and gathering information and not
knowing, like, what's truth, what's not, what's
true for me, what's not. And like, we're really

(28:30):
just as a society, figuring that out. And part of
it is bringing us back to the anchoring of
circadian rhythms and nature and all of these
foundational things that have been going on since
the beginning of time and all of that. I think
there's a lot of gifts in that journey of

(28:51):
figuring that out. And the amazing people you get
to meet, too. I work very closely with
naturopaths and some intuitive energy healers and
functional medicine practitioners and oncologists
and plastic surgeons, and all of it. And it's
just depending on what's going on with a patient,
they might need all of that. They might need a

(29:13):
little bit of traditional Chinese medicine and
acupuncture and herbalism, plus maybe we need to
do some topical treatment, or maybe they need a
systemic treatment. And. And maybe I'm dealing
with someone that is very much into energy
healing and has their energy healing that's
working together, but we're coming together as a
team to do that holistic piece.

Yeah. I love this approach, and thank you for
modeling it in the world and creating a structure
that is truly integrative in terms you are
integrating all of the things, all of the
possibilities, all of the opportunities. Man made
nature, all of it. So thank you. Thank you, Dr.

(29:57):
Jeffries. That's a good one. I want to jump back
to. You said something interesting that I hadn't
never heard before, which was leaky skin.

Yes.

And compared it to leaky gut. And you were
talking and you were saying, like, the skin is
sort of the external layer, the actual physical
barrier from a quantum biologic standpoint. Like,
we talk a lot about how our bodies are
energetically communicating with their
environment all of the time. So, of course, like,
the. The medium I Guess through which they're

(30:29):
communicating is kind of the skin. So tell me
what you mean by leaky skin, how it relates to
leaky gut and how it relates and how you now sort
of see the quote unquote, quantum health
practices fitting into it.

Yeah. So leaky skin. So typically we have these
two cells of the skin, and they link together,
and there's different little things that kind of
go in between that link them together. And when
those are disrupted and open, there's a leak in
that system. It's not sealed. And so the immune
system will try to come there and heal it. So we

(31:08):
might get, like, that itchy healing sensation.
The skin cells themselves might be trying to
repair and trying to, like, come together. And so
they're trying to do different things that help
those skin cells, or keratinocytes is the medical
word, but just trying to get them to come
together and seal up. And when we scratch it, we
open it up more, and then it's like more things

(31:29):
on the external environment can get in. So
bacteria and fungus and viruses and, you know,
all the things. Right. And so our body is like,
okay, now it's open even more. We got to heal
even more. We get a little bit thicker, and then
we start to see that th. Thickening of the skin.
So this is kind of the foundation of eczema, or,
you know, kind of like a barrier disruption in

(31:49):
the skin is where there's an opening. The immune
system's trying to heal it, and then it's. It's
getting thicker. So eczema is also known as the.

Itch, to clarify, like, that at a cellular level,
the. They're becoming. The cells are becoming
kind of looser.

Yep.

Then there's a gap. Yeah, there's gaps. Okay.
Which is allowing things in that the body doesn't
want. So the response is to thicken up.

And get rid of it. Get the immune system.

Oh, okay. All right.

So it's like, let's thicken up and let's get rid
of it. Let's, you know, increase that barrier so
that the body doesn't have harm. And kind of
within the spectrum of skin disease, I feel like,
you know, our bodies are meant to repair and
heal, and it may even have, like, a priority
system of, like, what it has to do. So sometimes

(32:46):
skin issues are more prevalent or more allowed
when we're more stressed out. So stress also
plays a role in how our cortisol is being
balanced. So if we truly were having this, like,
extreme version of being chased by a bear, and
we're trying to get rid of it. If we had a skin
sore, the bear would be like, eh, no thanks, I'm
good. Like, there might be something going on

(33:07):
with this bear. Pray I'm going to let it be. So
there's that stress response too, that kind of
almost like allows it. So, so there's that
internal component of that. And then if there is
an allergen or chronic inflammation or something
else going with the body system inside that maybe
isn't getting addressed and the body's trying to
have to have to really focus on that. It might

(33:28):
allow, okay, well, let the skin do that. I got, I
got priorities here. I got to focus on the heart,
the lungs, the muscles, like all of these other
things first. So there's that component that
plays a role. Then you think of, well, okay, if
we follow the skin, like I said, to our mouth and
we go inside. When I was sitting in that lecture,
they had a picture of the gut lining and I could

(33:50):
have blinked and it could have been skin and the
immune system and then the leaks of the barrier
of the gut, the intestinal permeability
happening, and then the immune factors that are
trying to heal it coming in. I mean, it was just
like, okay, I see that in my dermatology
textbooks with the skin. I'm seeing this here on
the screen of gut health. So it was just like

(34:12):
this aha moment of like, oh, it's not just skin,
it's everywhere. Like, it can happen other places
and can it just be isolated to one thing?

Sure.

Can it be linked to both? Sure. Can there be
other things going on? Sure. It's the kind of
having that living in that realm of possibility
of maybe what could be going on. And then to your
point about like quantum, Right. So then we get
to kind of energy and quantum and the tiny
particles and photons and all of the cool things

(34:43):
that I love to geek out on, which has brought me
to you and the training program is basically
there's. There's almost like a increasing density
of, you know, of material when we get to the
physical body. So there's a, there's a point at
which things get a little bit more dense. And

(35:05):
that's where we define, you know, our physical
body. And so, sure, there can be the gaps, sure
there can be, you know, the little photons of
energy and things kind of buzzing around. But
there, I think there's just a density of when we
come to the human body, and then maybe those
densities change as we go more internal. I don't
know if anyone's really defined like the quantum

(35:26):
energy of going in through the skin all the way
into the body and what all those little, you
know, things quantumly look like. But that kind
of makes sense to me is like there's. There's
kind of like maybe less dense in the environment
of. Of, you know, quantum. And then when we get
closer to our body, there's a density just like

(35:46):
the computer. There's a. There's a density that
creates the computer, even though we know in a
quantum world there's a lot of space in those
molecules and all of that. So that's kind of.
Kind of my thoughts on that.

Okay, this is so cool. All right, so then what,
in your estimation. I'm not looking for, you
know, blanket truths here, but in your
experience, in your estimation, what is most
likely to cause that leakage in the skin and does

(36:22):
it. And it's so, so interesting to me that. That
the exterior and the interior are such a mirror
because it's. We're all. It's all the same. Okay,
but what is. What are some of, you know, some.
There's. I think there's things that would come
to mind, top of mind, that would cause that
leakage. But then what are also things that maybe

(36:44):
we're not thinking about?

Yes, I know exactly what you're asking. There.
There's so much there. Right. And all the
different layers, and especially if we're talking
integrative. Right. So certainly there's the
physiology. There's the fact that the cells are,
you know, we've shown that they're open and
there's this break. And like, what could have
caused that? Could it be something outside in or

(37:07):
inside out? So there's that whole thing outside
in for. For eczema. And maybe a leaky skin is.
Could there have been, you know, maybe the
barrier was a little bit disrupted and then an
allergen got put on and then the body reacted to
that and it got more irritated and more
irritated. And then it, you know, recruited the

(37:27):
immune system in the skin. And then it got so bad
the immune system in the body had to come up and
go, could there be a microbiome issue where
there's a microbiome of the skin and then could
that be disrupted and then the immune system is
responding to that and all these different
layers. Could it be a food and internal that

(37:48):
started in the gut and then, you know, unfolded
into the skin? All of these are amazing
possibilities, and certainly all of them can be
true all at once, too. So that's the other piece
of this is it's not always like, okay, there's an
irritant on my skin, and I'm more prone to dry
skin and eczema. And then I ate these foods too,

(38:08):
that irritated in my body. It doesn't have the
micronutrients to be able to heal. And there's a
disruption in the microbiome. So all of this, you
know, is a little bit of dermatology, a little
bit of integrative medicine, and a little bit of
functional medicine where we can dive deep into
the fascinating physiology and biochemistry of
how this all works. And then there's the

(38:30):
energetic piece of it. And this is where things
get a little different and a little out there.
Um, and the way that I've experienced this with
patients is that there usually is an identity
issue going on with eczema. It's not everybody.
So this is a hard thing, like babies with eczema.

(38:52):
I don't know if this applies, but there can be a
subset of patients with eczema that have this
leaky skin, that don't know where they're defined
in life. Who am I compared out in this life?
Where is my definition? Where is my barrier?
Where is my boundary? Who am I as a person? I've

(39:13):
had a handful of people transitioning transgender
that had horrible flare ups of their eczema
before they were able to communicate to their
family of what was really going on with them.
That is profound. And then once they kind of
define who they are and are comfortable in their
own skin and their own body, wow, that eczema

(39:35):
calms down and could there be, like, the stress
physiology of it? Yes, and all of those things.
But that, like, barrier of like, who am I? And
I'm like, maybe I'm pleasing others and leaking
out and allowing other people to tell me what to
do and who I am and I'm not coming from within
and have this, you know, firm boundary of me and

(39:55):
who's me. And not everybody that's going through
that is going to have eczema either. So, I mean,
some people manifest it in different ways. It
might be a gut thing where, like, they get, like
a really upset gut and, you know, maybe they have
loose stools when they get upset or, you know,
everybody's different. Some people it's heart
palpitations or, you know, it's something in

(40:15):
their heart. So there's. There's all these
possibilities there. So it just depends on kind
of what layer, I guess, you want to look at.

Yes. And, yeah, I guess my question was more just
about saying like, yeah, there are all those
layers. And I think you know, back to what you
were saying earlier about not like separating
them and being like, okay, I have to get to the
emotional cause of this. I have to get to the
spiritual cause. Like there might, it might be a

(40:46):
whole constellation.

Right.

And depending what door you're coming in, you
might be someone who wants to start with emotion
and like, so you don't need medication or vice
versa. But maybe it's all, you know, we all need
a little bit of everything at some point. Yeah.

And it's, it's also an allowance of just letting
it be, let, letting your journey unfold. And
because I don't know what your lessons are going
to be or what you're supposed to do or where
you're supposed to go or I don't know, I'm, I
see. I'm going to give information and a guide
and hold space and do my best to connect you with

(41:25):
anyone that may be connected to your journey. And
then, and then it's up to you what you have to
do. And so it's an encouragement of just
anchoring into what's going to work best for you.
What's your journey? It's okay to make mistakes
and, and I don't think there are mistakes. I
think it's just like we went down one path and we
had a lesson and we learned and we're pivoting

(41:46):
and we're going down something else. And so it's
just, it's allowing that space and holding that
space for people and, and letting them have their
journey and do their thing. And you know,
sometimes the answers aren't always outside. We
resource meaning finding the source within from
looking outside it kind of anchors us back in of

(42:08):
what, what is right and we come back to source
inside and then we reference and then we come
back inside and see and then we might come out.
We might be able to help people who have been on
that journey too, but with the understanding that
it's their journey, everything you did isn't
necessarily what they need to do too. So.

Yeah, such a beautiful approach, Michelle. I
really love it. And yeah, I just want to talk
about eczema for one more moment just because it
seems to be like such a determined condition. I
know people who, you know, who have young

(42:50):
children with eczema who, you know, they do
everything there is to do from you know,
circadian rhythm to you know, non native EMFs, to
food to like loving secure environment, home
environments and they have made tremendous

(43:11):
progress. And still this, this it doesn't seem
to, like, be something that likes to fully
resolve or you would, you know, even in a. In a
young child. And so I'm just wondering what you,
what you see with eczema. And that being said, I

(43:32):
have. I'm thinking of one woman, Angela Jensen.
She did just what you, you said. Like, she's now
studying to be a naturopath and studied applied
quantum biology because her. She went through the
ringer with her child. They did an extended
family trip to Mexico. It resolved. They went
back home. He. They changed the lights at his
daycare. It came back. It was just. So, anyway, I

(43:56):
just, you know, especially for the moms out
there, I just would love to hear a little bit
more of your thoughts on eczema and children.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a challenging
situation, especially, you know, as a, you know,
also being boarded in pediatric dermatology. It's
seeing the kiddos and the moms and the parents
suffering, seeing a little baby, like, not really

(44:25):
able to scratch, but just, like, writhing around
and the parent just being like, I've tried
everything. I don't know what to do. I can't
sleep. And just, just the level of. Of stress and
distraught that it brings to families. I've seen
it impact marriages just because, you know,
parents aren't getting along because they're not
sleeping and they're miserable and they're.
They're trying from, like, the deepest depths of

(44:46):
their heart to do what's best for their baby. And
so it's one of those things where we don't have
all of the healing things at our fingertips. We
don't know everything. We don't know all the
things. And so we know that there are a lot of
things that can help. There are a lot of things
that can dampen the response. And it's being open

(45:06):
to all those things and also understanding the
continuum of where it is. So it's considered a
chronic skin disease. So it's probably going to
ebb and flow, and then sometimes there's going to
be things that, you know, trigger it. You're
like, okay, this was it. They had this certain
food and this was it. And then sometimes you're
like, okay, they had that food again and their

(45:27):
skin's fine.

And it's just.

It's so frustrating because maybe that's not what
it is. Maybe it's not the food. And then they're
like, okay, it's seasonal. Like, you know,
there's a pollen, grass or tree doing it. And
they do the allergy testing. And they do the
desensitization of those things, and maybe they
still have a little bit. And could there be a
genetic component? Could there be some untapped
things there? Yes. And so what, what I do in my

(45:54):
clinic is like, it depends on where we're at with
things. If we are having a full body severe
flare, like we're going to put things on the skin
to dampen that. We're going to do prescriptions,
and we're going to do it in a very guided, very
closely monitored way to just get to the point
where that being can be comfortable, and it just
takes the edge off of the whole entire family.

(46:14):
And then once we know what works, what can dampen
that response, then what are we going to do for
longevity? How are we going to handle those
flares? And so it's coming back into the clinic
and seeing, okay, I had these tools, and I have
all these different tools. I know how to use
them. This is what I did for this flare. This is
how long this lasted. Okay, now let's regroup.

(46:36):
What do we need to do for the next flare? And
kind of doing that. And it's a lot of back and
forth and learning because not one eczema patient
is like the next one. There's different things
for everybody. So what I typically do in the ones
that are open is I work with a pediatric
naturopath, and then I also work with a
pediatrician who does some gut testing. And in

(46:58):
some of these kiddos, we find yeast and they do a
little mini protocol and they do great. And other
kiddos, they've done that. And the eczema is
still there. And we have to advance some of our
treatments. So it's. It's one of those things
that breaks my heart. I know I can help. I know
that I can get the babies a lot better with

(47:18):
traditional dermatology practice and, and being
supportive and understanding of what they're
going through and seeing them regularly and kind
of giving them something to use to help their
skin and help their baby's skin. What I think is
very effective is if I can give a mom something
that they can put on their baby and it actually
helps their baby, they feel like they're helping,

(47:41):
and it's like they're doing something that's
making it better. There's nothing more
frustrating than putting something on the skin
and it makes it worse. And your baby's screaming
and crying and you don't know what it is. And
some of the common things that I see for that are
the baby products and it's terrible. It's like
we'll have like a certain lotion or a certain

(48:03):
thing that says it's for babies and it has
fragrance in it and their skin's already
disrupted and then they're putting that on and
maybe it's a cream. And creams tend to be a
little bit more burny, stingy. And then you're
putting that on too and it's just aggravating the
whole thing. And then as a parent, you may think,
okay, I put cream on and it doesn't work, so I'm
not going to do creams at all. Like it was very

(48:24):
traumatic, I'm not going to do it at all. But
maybe it's using something that's doesn't have
fragrance in it and it is more hypoallergenic and
it's more of an ointment, more of an occlusive
ointment that seals that barrier that's not going
to burn, sting. So I think if there are any moms
listening with eczema, just know there's a lot
that can be done and there's a lot of caveats and

(48:46):
not to give up. There's a lot to it. And
certainly you can go down a pathway of misusing
topical steroids in this way. So you want to work
with a board certified dermatologist who can
really guide you on what you're supposed to do.
Some pediatricians don't entirely understand how
to use topical steroids, so they refer you to a
pediatric dermatologist. And sometimes you can go

(49:08):
so far down this like testing and supplements and
elimination that your baby ends up malnourished
and not getting the micronutrients that they
need. And sometimes all of it works together too.
So just there's a lot of things there and some
kids grow out of it and some kids don't. And so,

(49:29):
and then why is this happening? Why do we have so
many eczema kiddos? I mean, I think it must be
something related to maybe our toxic load that
we're experiencing and then our inability to
detoxify things that might be one big piece of
it. So we're getting exposed to all of these
different things in our environment and then

(49:51):
maybe we're having toxic emotions, toxic thoughts
too that we're not talking to anybody about. And
maybe we're around toxic people that we can't
escape, like family or, you know, things like
that. So there's all these different layers of
things going on. So I think just a holistic
perspective and knowing that there are things

(50:13):
that can be really helpful. You may not want to
do them first thing, you may be exploring other
things, or you may do them first thing and then
use the other modalities to help support as
things get better. So I hope that helps.

Yeah, super comprehensive. And as you talked
about the onslaught of toxins, both physical and
frequency, and how to be, how to detoxify and be
resilient. Let's, let's close out by talking
about like the quantum biologic approach. How
does, how does skin fit in and how do you as a

(50:49):
dermatologist, recommend sun for people?

Yes. So this is a big shift that has happened to
me over my career. So, you know, being a
traditionally trained dermatologist, we're, you
know, sunlight causes a lot of issues in the
skin. And so I live in Arizona. We have an
abundance, abundance of sun. It is all the time.

(51:16):
And so there is, you know, something that's,
excuse me, a common sense about it. Like we know
in Arizona in the summer, we can't be out there
in the middle of the day for a long time. Like we
will be fried to a crisp. And even landscapers,
people that work on roofs, like they cover up. So
there's truths on all these sides. It's having

(51:38):
that understanding. But what if when the UV index
is really low at sunrise and we're able to get
some of the far infrared light into our eyes and
our body and there's not any UV risk there, why
aren't we suggesting people go and outside at
sunrise and then what about sunset too? So that's

(52:03):
been a shift in my recommendation is there's
definitely a benefit of exposure to sunrise and
then sunset if you can. And then it's off those
devices at night and going to bed on time and
being able to wake up in time to go out there for
sunrise. And then I learned about the UVA rise,

(52:25):
which I thought was fascinating that, you know,
about an hour or so after sunset, sunrise,
there's the UVA rise and how that helps with our
mitochondria, how it can help with thyroid
health, how it can help with cortisol. And that
was fascinating to me. Now in Arizona, there
might be a tiny window in the summer where
there's Sunrise, UVA Rise, UVB and Boom. We're

(52:48):
like full UVA 8. And so it depends on the time of
year, it depends on skin type, it depends on, you
know, where you're living and all, all of those
things. And so there's, there's kind of like the
nuanced approach of this like there might be some
things that are okay for a lot of people and

(53:08):
there might be some things that are okay only for
a small percentage. Most of my day in dermatology
is diagnosing and treating skin cancer. If you
are suspicious of anything that you think could
be a skin cancer, go and see a board certified
dermatologist. We have a very, very trained eye.
We can detect it where we have different

(53:28):
magnifiers and polarized lights that we use on
your skin to be able to see it. And so we know
that UV light might be related to that. But I
think there's other things too. It's, it came
down to, it's one thing that maybe we can control
or maybe we could do something about. And there's
some other things that maybe we don't know how to

(53:50):
mitigate or control. Maybe there is. Like you
live in a city with a ton of pollution and like,
what am I going to do about it? I don't, I don't
have the money to see a functional medicine
doctor and get my testing and see, you know,
where my toxic load is at and do the detox, you
know, protocol, you know, gosh, like, you know,
there's all of that maybe I don't know what's

(54:12):
going on with my microbiome of my gut and you
know, if it's leaky or not and that's impeding my
healing and I don't know about my stress levels.
Like I'm having a hard time struggling and so I'm
inflamed all the time and angry and I might have
micronutrient deficiencies and things like that.
But it seems like sun was something that as

(54:32):
dermatologists like, okay, that's something that
we could at least give some guidance on. It's
something we can maybe control. And then what
happened is there is a whole misinformation about
sunscreen. Chemical sunscreens have gotten the
spotlight of like, you know, don't put chemical
sunscreens on your skin. And I would say most

(54:52):
dermatologists never even recommended those. From
the beginning. We've, we've anchored into the
zinc oxide sunscreens and sunscreen where you
can't cover and covering with clothing is
actually number one. Sunscreen is probably number
two. And then, you know, reapplying. And so what
also has happened with the industry is sunscreen

(55:13):
used to be sunblock and so then it was, it blocks
the sun and you're safe and you can be out there
as long as you want and you're fine and we had
the FDA take that off a lot of the labels of
sunscreen, because that's not true. It gives you
that false sense of security. And even sunscreen,
it's a screen. It's not perfect. You're still

(55:34):
going to get some of those UV rays in. Now then
we go into. Well, if it's. If you're blocking
yourself all the time, maybe that's not the
healthiest. And that's where I think things are
shifting a little bit, that maybe you get a
little bit of sun without protection, maybe when
the UV index is around 2, so you get a little bit
of vitamin D. However, if you have a SNP in your

(55:56):
vitamin D receptor, it doesn't matter how much
sun you get. You may not absorb it from the sun
entirely. So there's that subset of people.
Right. So we have all of these different, like,
caveats to everything, I guess. I don't know
where you want to go with that, but there's.
There's so much. Yeah.

Super interesting. So if we are, you know.
Because we talk a lot about that the sun is
actually the source of life and is good for you.
Now, obviously, you don't want to get a sunburn.
That is not good. But what. How do you feel about
a tan? And how do you feel about. If we want to

(56:35):
get, like, a really high vitamin D level in the
summer for those of us who can. Would. Going
outside.

Yeah. So that. Yeah.

From the sunshine.

There's interesting data about intermittent sun
exposure increasing your risk for skin cancer,
chronic sun exposure lessening the risk. So it's
fascinating now whether or not.

Intermittent being like, I live in Minnesota and
I fly to Mexico and I lie out in the noonday sun,
and then I come back.

Or like, what I used to do when I was little.
It's 50 degrees. I'm gonna lay out. I was a
teenager, I was gonna get tan. And, you know, and
then it's like, as soon as it's warm out, I'm out
there, and I'm only getting sun certain times of
the year. And the rest of the the time I'm like,
indoors and, you know, and. And there's also,
like, we're in front of screens. We're getting
the blue light at night. Like, there's all these,

(57:34):
like, different. Different pieces. But to kind of
answer your question, so, you know, obviously not
a sunburn. But then when you start noticing the
browning of the skin, then it's like the little
kind of keratinocyte or skin cell. There's a
melanocyte for every, let's say, 30 of those. And
what it does and it's kind of like, I don't know,

(57:55):
it's kind of like an amoeba shape, I guess, is
kind of how it's kind of, I think of it. And then
the keratinocyte is kind of like a block. And
what it does is it kind of goes over and it tries
to cover it and protect it. And then when you
have more of that network, that's when we're
starting to see a tan. And then it's, you know,
depending on what is going on with your body,
with your immune system, with your stress levels,

(58:16):
with your exposures, who knows how long that can
hold? Who knows how long that can protect? And
then can that keratinocyte somehow, when it makes
a new layer, because every month we get in a new
epidermis, can it make a mistake? And does your
body have the right tools in its immune system to
catch that mistake, repair it? Are we doing

(58:38):
things at night to detox and repair? Are we
getting off devices? Are we healing at night? Are
we adequately doing that? What is our toxic load?
What is our detox pathway? How are we repairing?
So certainly there might be a small set of people
that, yes, they can BTN and go out and do that.

(58:58):
But there's caveats like, we don't know. And
there's a delay, right? So there's a delay in
what we did when we're younger and what ends up
happening later. And there is like a senescence,
there is a dipening of the immune system and the
repair factors as we get older because the body
is trying to repair all these other things, too.
Then what we did earlier, is there a memory and

(59:21):
is there something going on that gets carried on
later? We don't know how that life's going to
unfold. If we have a child who's out getting tan
all the time, and then later in life they live a
very toxic lifestyle, there might be more at risk
for things. It's so hard to answer the question

(59:41):
with not knowing all of the things and all of the
details and what's right. And then the photo
damage, like, that's real. That. Yeah, that
sucks. That's like. I mean, I would say the
majority of the women I see all ages into their
90s. How do I. How do you help me with brown

(01:00:02):
spots? How do you help me with wrinkles? I don't
do cosmetic dermatology, but all of us are trying
to reverse some of that photo aging that has
happened. And I don't think all aging is just
from the sun. It's not, there's a lot of other
factors that go in it, but it's something that
maybe we can mitigate. So when we are starting to
notice, like, okay, I'm getting a little bit of
freckling and discoloration on my skin. My body's

(01:00:25):
not maybe ready for this. Maybe I need to work on
some things if I'm getting sunburn. Like, okay,
yeah, too fast, too hard, gotta, gotta calm, calm
down. And so there's just, there's just so much
to, to go over there.

Meredith Oke (01:00:41):
I totally, it makes, it makes perfect sense
especially like having such a, an in depth level
of experience. And it absolutely makes perfect
sense that there's nothing that we can say like
just do this and have it not be related to
everything else you're doing. So with the
exception of sunrise and sunset, like it's really

(01:01:04):
hard to hurt yourself with those. But, but during
the, the high intensity parts of the day, it's
like what I hear you saying is that it really
depends what the whole rest of your life is. Like
are you, are you eating real food? Are you
blocking non native EMFs as much as possible? Are
you sleeping in the dark? Are you like all of

(01:01:26):
these other things are going to inform how well
your body can handle high intensity sun? Is that
yes.

Dr. Michelle Jeffries (01:01:38):
So fair. And also your mitochondrial health, like
so there's an interesting study that came out, oh
my gosh, a long, a while ago, I can't remember
the year. I'm a clinician, not a researcher, so.
But it was about niacinamide or nicotinamide and
how there were two groups of people in Australia
and one group took it twice a day and the other

(01:02:01):
group didn't take it. And everybody was at risk
for skin cancers that had skin cancers and pre
skin cancers. And when they looked at it a year
later, there's a 23% reduction in squamous cells
and the people that took the niacinamide. And I
was like, oh, of course, mitochondrial health,
it's on the electron transport chain. So there's
something there, there's something there. So that

(01:02:24):
is something that we recommend is, you know,
there are antioxidant supplements that can help
you as well, to help protect you. It's not all
hats and sunglasses and sunscreen and clothing.
You could also do things from the inside out too.
So there's all of that perspective. And then also
about skin cancer. I mean it's not just one

(01:02:45):
thing. Even melanoma is not One thing, there's
different types, there's different subtypes.
There are, you know, melanocytes are a type of
cell that is not only in your skin, it's in your
eyes, it's in your sinuses, it's in your
genitalia, it's in your mucosa. So I mean, you
can get melanoma without sun exposure. There are

(01:03:08):
melanomas that exist in areas that don't have sun
exposure. We do know that we see them more
frequently on sun exposure, those areas. And
melanoma is a very high risk because there are
variants that can break off and spread. And we've
tried to figure out, okay, if it's this deep in
the skin, it's higher risk to break off and
spread. And sometimes that guideline is great and

(01:03:31):
it's really helpful and sometimes it's not. And
sometimes things progress. And we've done all the
things and we thought it was something that was
in the surface or superficial and did the things,
but it spread more. So there's a lot of things we
don't know about that. And you know, each skin
cancer is named after the type of cell that grows
more than it should. So a basal cell is a basal

(01:03:53):
layer between the epidermis and the dermis. And
it's that lining. It's the most common type of
skin cancer. And I've heard in different realms
of, oh, it's, you know, it's nothing, you can
just let it be. But there's subtypes, there's
superficial spreading where it spreads, there's
infiltrative aggressive where it goes down. And
it doesn't really look like much on the skin.
It's like a little scar, but it's diving deep and

(01:04:14):
it's destructive. So why not get those taken care
of with a board certified dermatologist and then
work on like, okay, why the heck am I getting
these? What can I do on the inside? And then
squamous cells, it's, it's, you know, the rest of
the cell layer in the epidermis are squamous
cells. And we have squamous cells in our linings.
So when you google just squamous cell cancer, you

(01:04:36):
might come across lung cancer of squamous cell.
And that behaves very differently than skin. Then
depending on the type and subtype, location and
size, things behave differently. A squamous cell
that's invasive and we call it poorly
differentiated mean it's kind of like all over
the place and not really defined if it's on the
scalp or on the lip or in front of the ear, it's

(01:04:57):
a higher risk to go to those lymph nodes. But if
you have a superficial one that maybe is on your
abdomen or your arm, those things less likely to
break off and spread. So there's all these like
nuances when I hear the conversation about skin
cancer information on the different realms. Like,
oh, there's so many things there. And it's almost
like if you think of the types of skin cancer,

(01:05:19):
it's like watching movie, right? So there's,
there's a ton of different movie choices you
could do or a ton of different limited series,
right? So most skin cancers are the slow burners.
They're like, they kind of slowly will grow and
slowly show up and you're like, okay, what is
this thing? I don't know. This kind of looks
weird. Weird. It's not dry skin, you know, it's
not a pimple anymore. It's a mole that's changed.

(01:05:41):
It's kind of a slow burner. So we have like those
and then we have like the action packed. Like
this thing's growing. It's coming up like crazy.
We're going in fast and we're getting rid of it
fast and things are going on. And then there's
the happy endings, right? So there's the movies
that, you know, happy ending, everything's great,
we got it treated, we figured out what's going
on, we figured out the root. We're working on all

(01:06:02):
the things and it's not coming back. And I guess
this conversation can be about eczema too. But
most of them are mysteries. Most of them we don't
know. We don't know how each individual got to
that moment in time. We don't have all of the
information of what were they eating, what was
their lifestyle like, where did they grow up, how
much were they on an airplane, exposed to emf,

(01:06:23):
exposed to UV light, exposed to toxic engine
stuff from the fuel, exposed to all these things,
you know, were they exposed to a lot of sun when
they're driving? Because we think we're safe in
our cars, but we still get sun in our cars, even
with tinted wind windows. What, what were they
eating? What was their life like? And so part of
this is just embracing that and knowing that

(01:06:44):
sometimes things are mysterious and sometimes we
go out exploring and sometimes we get information
back and it's really helpful. And sometimes we
revel in the mystery and sometimes that's where
we land of like, I don't know how this happened.
I'm going to move forward from here and go
through what I need to do and find my path.

That's so beautiful. That's a beautiful way to
look at health in general. Right. We really just
want there to be, okay, give me the three things,
give me the three things to do and I'll be
healthy forever. And it just, we're on a non
linear trajectory here and so beautiful to hear,

(01:07:32):
to hear you look at it that way. Especially like
you have the medical background and all of the
things and you're still able to embrace the
mystery.

Yeah, I think, you know, we all have our own
personal health journeys too. Like you kind of
forced to at some point in your life, if you
haven't already, it's probably going to happen.
Not to, you know, wish on anybody, but it's like
we're, we're here for the experience. We're not
here very long. We're here to learn, we're here
to grow, we're here to expand, we're here to
connect. Like we're on a journey. It's like we

(01:08:06):
are, we're creating a movie here. We're a
creator. What is it? How are we going to live
today? What are we going to do today? What are we
going to explore? What are we going to be curious
about? What pathway, what doorways is that going
to open up for me today? What if I watch Sunrise
and I'm off my devices tonight? Like, how am I
going to sleep the next night? What's going to
happen? And just explain that. What is this UVA

(01:08:29):
Rise and kind of looking into it a little bit and
being willing to explore and see. Yeah.

I love it. I love it. And yeah, and to pay
attention to how our body is responding. And I
will just say your recommendation about Luno
getting spots checked out by a board certified
dermatologist. I wholeheartedly second that. We

(01:09:00):
have an integrative family physician who supports
us spending lots of time outside. But he's like,
everyone should get checked every year and if you
see anything, get rid of it, get it taken care
of. So I think that's really solid advice and I
think worth just throwing that out there to our
audience because we do love, we do love the sun.

(01:09:21):
But that is, you know, as you say, we were
infinitely mysterious and we're just so early in
understanding how, how everything really works in
the world. So. So just to wrap up, Michelle, tell
us about sort of where you are now with your
practice. You've gone through many iterations and

(01:09:42):
how can people find you?

Yeah, so I work in a traditional Dermatology
practice that takes insurance in Phoenix,
Arizona. It's in a suburb called Chandler. So the
name of that practice is East Valley Dermatology.
So if you're in the area and you just want to do
a skin cancer screening and schedule an
appointment, we take insurance, we do some cash

(01:10:06):
pay, but it's, you know, a traditional
dermatology practice. I've kind of come to a
point with everything else, all of the training
I've gathered and all of the things that I've
learned, that coming back to just our natural
cycles and the natural things and the cycles of
the day, working with optimizing your circadian

(01:10:28):
health, optimizing your sleep, optimizing your
skin care, figuring out that there are different
cycles that happen with our gut throughout the
day, that there's different cycles that happen
with our skin throughout the day, there's
different cycles that happen with our hormones
every month. There's all of these fascinating
cycles. And so I've put together everything

(01:10:50):
together into a concept called the skin clock
method. And it's working with aligning yourself
and figuring out where am I at with all of these
cycles, where am I at with my rhythms, where am I
at with connecting my health and my body with
nature cycles? And how can I align that? And it's
a four part series and, and it works on this

(01:11:12):
bigger cycle of life. And I call it the luminous
cycle. But basically it's like sometimes we need
to just start with a pause and see, like, where
am I at with everything? And then things kind of
start to be illuminated of what's going on with
us. So that first step is pausing and
illuminating where am I at with everything? I've
never thought about some of this stuff before,

(01:11:34):
kind of assessing all of those different clocks,
your daily clocks, your monthly clocks, and then
these bigger, wider cycles of seasonal clocks.
And then the next step is we have to make a step
of like, where are we going to emerge? What are
we going to do next? What are we going to create
with our lives? What are we going to do with all
of these things? How is it that we want to live
and making those decisions of creating and

(01:11:54):
emerging and all of these different cycles of
like, well, what do I want to do? And then the
next phase is manifesting and really living into
that and actually nurturing and sustaining those
habits, getting into those, really syncing up,
really fine tuning, really refining things. And
then we get to a point where we realize, well,
there might be some things I don't need anymore,
there might be some things that I've transcended

(01:12:16):
that maybe I don't need. And we're letting go and
we're surrendering of things. And sometimes that
lands us in another place of, okay, I gotta pause
again. I'm not quite sure what's going on again.
I just let go of something that was a big deal. I
gotta pause again. And once, you know, this cycle
of kind of illuminating things, things becoming,
emerging things being nurtured and sustained and

(01:12:37):
manifested, and things letting go. There are so
many things in our lives that do that. So our
breath does that. We have a pause in our breath.
We have an opening of the breath, we have a
releasing of the breath. We have a pause of the
breath. We have that whole cycle. Our skin goes
through that cycle. There's a daytime cycle,
there's, you know, a monthly cycle. Our hormones

(01:13:00):
go through that. As a female, menstruating
females, we have a cycle that every week we might
go through a different piece of that path. The
day is structured like that too. So we come from
sleep where we're, you know, pausing, and then
the day comes and we're illuminating the day.
We're illuminating what's happening, and then we
emerge and we kind of go out into the day of what

(01:13:21):
we're going to create. And the sun is rising, and
we're doing different things during that time.
And then we're manifesting. We're doing different
things midday and later in the day and different
activities and different things are going on as
the sun is going, going, and then transcending.
We're kind of letting go at night. Are we able to
let go of what happened during the day? Are we,
you know, able to release that day and look for

(01:13:43):
the next day? So there's all these different
cycles, and they merge together. And so bringing
that all together is how you can manifest what I
call your chrono beauty and how you're able to
align your cycles and align all of these things
manifest into who you are meant to be, who you're
meant to be, aligning with all of these things.

(01:14:04):
So that's what's next.

Gorgeous. So are you supporting patients to go to
create their or identify their personal chrono
cycles?

Absolutely. Whoever is interested in it, it's
foundational. It's kind of coming back to our
roots and coming back to the foundations of how
are we nourishing ourselves? How are we living
our lives? How are we handling stress? How do we
see the world? What does that come from? How are
we metabolizing life? And when we talk about
metabolizing Food and, you know, in quantum

(01:14:42):
metabolizing light is a big part of this too. But
how are we metabolizing just life in, in general?
And so some patients that I see in the clinic
are. This is not aligned with them. You know,
they're, they're not ready for this. It's not in
their vibe. It's not right. And for others, it's
like, yes. So it's, it's, it's not limited to, to

(01:15:05):
any of that. It's. It's open to who wants to
learn this, who wants to, who's ready for this,
who, who wants to step into this, this level of
healing. And it doesn't, you know, go against
doing functional medicine things because we need
that layer a lot of times, or doing traditional
dermatology and traditional medicine, we need
that too, or doing energetic work. It's

(01:15:28):
supportive of all of that. And it actually, if we
have these foundational pieces in place and we're
able to recognize these cycles and see where
maybe we're off kilter and kind of realign and
get in tune with that, it might make all those
other things go a lot easier. It might make us
more responsive to those things too. So as I've
kind of like gone out into all the trainings and

(01:15:49):
then I'm coming back home, coming back home to
all of those rooted things and.

All of those things and metabolizing them and
putting them together into their own unique
offering. That's beautiful. It's so funny you're
saying everything has this cycle because I just
launched a coaching program for, for business
owners and I had this. I was trying to think of
how to articulate something, and I had this cycle

(01:16:15):
come to me and it was like momentum, which moves
into chaos. Could be like creative chaos or it
could be the overwhelmed chaos, whatever, not
like as a neutral world. And that word. And then
that chaos pushes us to seek further clarity. And
then that clarity up levels the business, which
creates momentum, which. So, so everything is a

(01:16:37):
cycle from our breath to our business. And how
beautiful you're pulling it all together.

I love what you just said, because that is
another truth here, is that it keeps up leveling,
like you said, and then you come around to
another cycle, just like you said. And then what
you do now, it builds up to that next layer and
that next cycle that you come around. So just
like you said, what happens in that cycle of
coaching, it. It, you know, primes you for like
that next. And then we go through another cycle

(01:17:04):
and there's, there's so much I Don't know, like,
a sense of, like, peace of like, oh, that's where
I'm at. Here I am. I'm in the chaos. I'm in the
creative chaos.

Terrible. I'm just in a chaos phase.

Right. And then. But there's something after it.
And yeah, I had momentum. Like, this makes sense.
Okay. And then it just, like it allows you to
open and expand and anchor in. And then open and
expand and anchor in. So, yes. Like, you said
that so beautifully.

Oh, this is so wonderful. I love it. I'm so glad
we got to talk. Michelle. Thank you so much. And
I could. I can feel your offer resonating. I know
we're. No one's listening to us right now, but I
can feel in the quantum field, I could hear
everyone going, I want to work with Michelle. So
just to clarify that the chrono beauty piece is.

(01:17:58):
You see people virtually. It's not necessarily at
the clinic. That's a separate.

It's. Yeah, it's completely separate. And so it's
just an online program. It's going to be a series
of online meditation retreats that are optimized
for an optimal circadian day. And so each piece
of it is going to go through one part of the
cycle. And as you go through that cycle, you're
going to go through an optimized circadian day.

(01:18:23):
Like, we're going to have something happening at
sunrise and then at Uva rise. You know, what are
we. What are we doing now? What is our skin up to
now? What's our gut up to now? You know, all of
that. And so walking you through all those
pieces. So it's still in the. In the. I don't
know, in the ethers of creation. And so if you

(01:18:44):
join me on Instagram. Instagram @Doctor Jeffries,
or you go to my website, DrMichelleJeffries.com
or the Skin Clock method. Eventually there'll be
things where you can go on the wait list and get
signed up for it, but it's coming very, very
soon. We're putting on some of those final
touches and final evolutions of it. So thank you.

I love it. And so. And we'll put the. We'll put
the links to all of that in the show notes as
well. I'm just. Just for people who are, like,
driving and will never look at the show notes.
Dr. Michelle jeffries.com. so D R M I C H E L L E

(01:19:24):
J E F F r I e s.com or, or your Instagram. Thank
you so much. This was pleasure. Pleasure. And as
you were talking, I'm like, I have 10 more
questions about that. I have 10 more questions
about that. So we'll have to do it again.

Absolutely. I know. There's just so much. I was
so excited to talk to you about this podcast and
all the things. There's just so much to talk
about and so many layers. And I just. I so
appreciate all the work that you're doing, and
I'm so grateful that I came across you. As I was
looking into, gosh, I want to learn more about
quantum and circadian. What courses are

(01:20:07):
available, what. What programs are available? And
I was like, you know, going to these university
websites, I'm like, I don't want another degree.
I just. I just want to learn more. What can I do?
What conferences are available. And that is how I
stumbled on you. And so, so grateful. And I
listened to your podcast. I learned so much. It
keeps my mind open, it keeps my heart open. And I

(01:20:29):
just. I just love all that you're doing and the
rabbit holes that you go on. I'm right there with
you.

Thank you. Thank you really a lot for saying
that, because sometimes it's just like jumping
into the void. And I so appreciate your support.
I can feel it. And I'm so glad you found us. What
you're offering to the world is really
outstanding, so thanks.

Well, you've played a piece in it, for sure.

Thank you.

Thank you.

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126: Dr. Michelle Jeffries - Eczema "Leaky Skin"? A Dermatologist’s Quantum Approach to Healing

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